{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5364", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5364, "subject": "Babbie", "messages": 146, "voices": 19, "first": "2009-03-17T18:10:25+00:00", "last": "2009-03-22T13:53:53+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-17T18:10:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "while we've been talking about Babbie,\n\nwhat do people make of that Horn in Babbie concept that was thrown around years ago. Stu pointed it out to me.\n\nwhat the hell is up with that?\nI don't think I buy that at all, but I understand the knee bit, and the outsider calling for Babbie confounds the reading. That an the \"Beast with three horns bit\" What else could be a beast with Three horns. Are horns just a metaphor for souls, which, seem to number 3 in Horn, but, the prophesy is that Horn will ride that beast, not be part of that beast, so I'm not sure if you could be a horn, and be a rider. hurm...\n\nWhen I read it, I felt Babbie mirrored (in a way) Pig. Horn had Babbie with him on one leg, and Pig with him on the other. Both are pigs of sorts.\n\n\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0903171135n51cf3ba4uea83161243230402@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-17T18:35:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm just starting my first Short Sun reread, so I may have more thoughts on\nthis later, but wouldn't the Babbie/Pig parallel underscore the likelihood\nthat some or all of Horn's soul winds up in Babbie? A copy of Silk's soul,\nafter all, was in Pig. The parallel works better if both of them serve as\n\"pen cases\" for souls." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 2:10 PM, Son of Witz wrote:\nwhile we've been talking about Babbie,\n\nwhat do people make of that Horn in Babbie concept that was thrown around\nyears ago. Stu pointed it out to me.\n\nwhat the hell is up with that?\nI don't think I buy that at all, but I understand the knee bit, and the\noutsider calling for Babbie confounds the reading. That an the \"Beast with\nthree horns bit\" What else could be a beast with Three horns. Are horns\njust a metaphor for souls, which, seem to number 3 in Horn, but, the\nprophesy is that Horn will ride that beast, not be part of that beast, so\nI'm not sure if you could be a horn, and be a rider. hurm...\n\nWhen I read it, I felt Babbie mirrored (in a way) Pig. Horn had Babbie\nwith him on one leg, and Pig with him on the other. Both are pigs of sorts.\n\n\n~witz\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-17T18:43:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0903171135n51cf3ba4uea83161243230402@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I guess it underscores the Babbie/Pig parallel, to some degree. \nYet, I see no symbolic or plot reason for Horn in Babbie.\nWhy, would a part of Horn enter Babbie? Surely it's not his complete self, because he's very present on Green, after he leaves Babbie behind. And if Horn in Babbie is true, does Horn leave Silk and go completely to babbie in the end?\n\n~witz " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: John Watkins [mailto:john.watkins04 at gmail.com]\nSent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 11:35 AM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) Babbie\n\nI'm just starting my first Short Sun reread, so I may have more thoughts on\nthis later, but wouldn't the Babbie/Pig parallel underscore the likelihood\nthat some or all of Horn's soul winds up in Babbie? A copy of Silk's soul,\nafter all, was in Pig. The parallel works better if both of them serve as\n\"pen cases\" for souls.\n\nOn Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 2:10 PM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "while we've been talking about Babbie,\n\nwhat do people make of that Horn in Babbie concept that was thrown around\nyears ago. Stu pointed it out to me.\n\nwhat the hell is up with that?\nI don't think I buy that at all, but I understand the knee bit, and the\noutsider calling for Babbie confounds the reading. That an the \"Beast with\nthree horns bit\" What else could be a beast with Three horns. Are horns\njust a metaphor for souls, which, seem to number 3 in Horn, but, the\nprophesy is that Horn will ride that beast, not be part of that beast, so\nI'm not sure if you could be a horn, and be a rider. hurm...\n\nWhen I read it, I felt Babbie mirrored (in a way) Pig. Horn had Babbie\nwith him on one leg, and Pig with him on the other. Both are pigs of sorts.\n\n\n~witz\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T02:31:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 2:10 PM, Son of Witz wrote:\nwhile we've been talking about Babbie,\n...\n~witz" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If I may, I believe we are omitting a major & fundamental question.\n\nHow is babby formed?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-18T02:43:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 17, 2009, at 7:31 PM, Gwern Branwen wrote:\nOn Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 2:10 PM, Son of Witz ", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T18:50:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Son of Witz\" \nSent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 9:43 PM\n\"Yo Dawg, I heard you like reading about possesion, so we put some Pas in \nyour Silk and some Silk in your Horn so you can read about Pas while you \nread about Silk while you read about Horn.\"\n*inserts photoshopped pic of Xzibit with two heads*" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And there my friends is Horn riding the beast with three Horns...for Horn is \na clone of Typhon, and the Neighbor who reanimated him is Horn (so he says \nin his meeting with the Neighbors), and Silk --a clone of Typhon's son with \nKypris-- was possessed by Pas and so used to heal Pas at the end of LS: \nFather, Son, and Holy Spirit. One and yet three.\n\nBut this combines three explanations I've offered in the past that are \ndifferent yet the same in that they all never seemed to have appealed to \nvery many people.\n\nP.S. I does seem that Babbie is psychically connected to Horn as long as he \nremains in his presence.\n\nJ\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<268672.57173.qm@web81407.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Stuart Hamm", "address": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2009-03-18T18:57:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "<9F0C6C2D390944DAA67770F167B1BBFE@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "YEAH!\nPlease see my next post...\n\n\n???? Mobile — (415) 786-3624\n???? Skype? stuart.hamm\nmyspace.com/stuhamm\n? ??? stuarthamm.net\n\n\n--- On Wed, 3/18/09, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: James Wynn \nSubject: Re: (urth) Babbie\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, March 18, 2009, 11:50 AM\nFrom: \"Son of Witz\" \nSent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 9:43 PM\n\"Yo Dawg, I heard you like reading about possesion, so we put some\nPas in your Silk and some Silk in your Horn so you can read about Pas while\nyou read about Silk while you read about Horn.\"\n*inserts photoshopped pic of Xzibit with two heads*" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And there my friends is Horn riding the beast with three Horns...for Horn is a\nclone of Typhon, and the Neighbor who reanimated him is Horn (so he says in his\nmeeting with the Neighbors), and Silk --a clone of Typhon's son with\nKypris-- was possessed by Pas and so used to heal Pas at the end of LS: Father,\nSon, and Holy Spirit. One and yet three.\n\nBut this combines three explanations I've offered in the past that are\ndifferent yet the same in that they all never seemed to have appealed to very\nmany people.\n\nP.S. I does seem that Babbie is psychically connected to Horn as long as he\nremains in his presence.\n\nJ" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0903181158k2c03c745o445c74e40b0021ee@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T18:58:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "<9F0C6C2D390944DAA67770F167B1BBFE@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Horn is a clone of Typhon?\n\nI also don't think Silk was possessed by Pas..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 2:50 PM, James Wynn wrote:\n\nFrom: \"Son of Witz\" \nSent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 9:43 PM" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"Yo Dawg, I heard you like reading about possesion, so we put some Pas in\nyour Silk and some Silk in your Horn so you can read about Pas while you\nread about Silk while you read about Horn.\"\n*inserts photoshopped pic of Xzibit with two heads*" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And there my friends is Horn riding the beast with three Horns...for Horn\nis a clone of Typhon, and the Neighbor who reanimated him is Horn (so he\nsays in his meeting with the Neighbors), and Silk --a clone of Typhon's son\nwith Kypris-- was possessed by Pas and so used to heal Pas at the end of LS:\nFather, Son, and Holy Spirit. One and yet three.\n\nBut this combines three explanations I've offered in the past that are\ndifferent yet the same in that they all never seemed to have appealed to\nvery many people.\n\nP.S. I does seem that Babbie is psychically connected to Horn as long as he\nremains in his presence.\n\n\nJ\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<159419.67293.qm@web81403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Stuart Hamm", "address": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2009-03-18T19:01:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0903181158k2c03c745o445c74e40b0021ee@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Pas got loaded into Silk in Mainframe right??? Can't remember where it's stated though...\n\n\n???? Mobile — (415) 786-3624\n???? Skype? stuart.hamm\nmyspace.com/stuhamm\n? ??? stuarthamm.net\n\n\n--- On Wed, 3/18/09, John Watkins wrote:\n\nFrom: John Watkins \nSubject: Re: (urth) Babbie\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, March 18, 2009, 11:58 AM\n\n\n\nHorn is a clone of Typhon?\n\nI also don't think Silk was possessed by Pas...\n\n\nOn Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 2:50 PM, James Wynn wrote:\n\n\nFrom: \"Son of Witz\" \nSent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 9:43 PM \n\n\n\"Yo Dawg, I heard you like reading about possesion, so we put some Pas ?in your Silk and some Silk in your Horn so you can read about Pas ?while you read about Silk while you read about Horn.\"\n*inserts photoshopped pic of Xzibit with two heads*\n\nAnd there my friends is Horn riding the beast with three Horns...for Horn is a clone of Typhon, and the Neighbor who reanimated him is Horn (so he says in his meeting with the Neighbors), and Silk --a clone of Typhon's son with Kypris-- was possessed by Pas and so used to heal Pas at the end of LS: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. One and yet three.\n\nBut this combines three explanations I've offered in the past that are different yet the same in that they all never seemed to have appealed to very many people.\n\nP.S. I does seem that Babbie is psychically connected to Horn as long as he remains in his presence. \n\n\n\n\nJ" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0903181203q2d91de09m3ae33074eed73049@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T19:03:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "<159419.67293.qm@web81403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought *Silk* got loaded into *Pas* at Mainframe, \"healing\" Pas in the\nsense of turning him into, in part at least, the \"Silver Silk\" who later\npossesses Pig." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 3:01 PM, Stuart Hamm wrote:\n Pas got loaded into Silk in Mainframe right??? Can't remember where it's\nstated though...\n\n Mobile (415) 786-3624\n Skype stuart.hamm\nmyspace.com/stuhamm\n stuarthamm.net\n\n\n--- On *Wed, 3/18/09, John Watkins * wrote:\n\nFrom: John Watkins \nSubject: Re: (urth) Babbie\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, March 18, 2009, 11:58 AM\n\n\n Horn is a clone of Typhon?\n\nI also don't think Silk was possessed by Pas...\n\nOn Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 2:50 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"Son of Witz\" \nSent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 9:43 PM" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "\"Yo Dawg, I heard you like reading about possesion, so we put some Pas\n in your Silk and some Silk in your Horn so you can read about Pas while\nyou read about Silk while you read about Horn.\"\n*inserts photoshopped pic of Xzibit with two heads*" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And there my friends is Horn riding the beast with three Horns...for Horn\nis a clone of Typhon, and the Neighbor who reanimated him is Horn (so he\nsays in his meeting with the Neighbors), and Silk --a clone of Typhon's son\nwith Kypris-- was possessed by Pas and so used to heal Pas at the end of LS:\nFather, Son, and Holy Spirit. One and yet three.\n\nBut this combines three explanations I've offered in the past that are\ndifferent yet the same in that they all never seemed to have appealed to\nvery many people.\n\nP.S. I does seem that Babbie is psychically connected to Horn as long as\nhe remains in his presence.\n\n\nJ\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<17D0CD2F2B494DE9A3381E1476CB09FD@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T19:15:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "<159419.67293.qm@web81403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Watkins: Horn is a clone of Typhon?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. Tussah too. Next time you read SS, read it with the possibility in mind that Horn is Typhon; the first hint is when Horn gives his little lecture to his family about Pas having the ability to come to Blue." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Watkins: I also don't think Silk was possessed by Pas..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of course not. Few people seem to. Theories are a dime-a-dozen here. I won't strip you of yours." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Stuart Hamm: Pas got loaded into Silk in Mainframe right??? \nCan't remember where it's stated though..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "and" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Watkins: I thought Silk got loaded into Pas at Mainframe, \"healing\" \nPas in the sense of turning him into, in part at least, the \"Silver Silk\" who later possesses Pig." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why do you think the technicians carried the leader of a single Whorl city all the way to Mainframe to repair Pas? If anyone would do, why not use someone more accessible? Why wait 20 years when in order to use someone from the Cargo?\n\nJ" } ] }, { "message_id": "<586816.35407.qm@web81401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Stuart Hamm", "address": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2009-03-18T19:16:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "<17D0CD2F2B494DE9A3381E1476CB09FD@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James, can I call you and have you explain everything to me...please...???\n\nhehe\n\n\n???? Mobile — (415) 786-3624\n???? Skype? stuart.hamm\nmyspace.com/stuhamm\n? ??? stuarthamm.net\n\n\n--- On Wed, 3/18/09, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: James Wynn \nSubject: Re: (urth) Babbie\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, March 18, 2009, 12:15 PM\nJohn Watkins: Horn is a clone of Typhon?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. Tussah too. Next time you read SS, read it with the possibility in mind that Horn is Typhon; the first hint is when Horn gives his little lecture to his family about Pas having the ability to come to Blue." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Watkins: I also don't think Silk was possessed by Pas..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of course not. Few people seem to. Theories are a dime-a-dozen here. I won't strip you of yours." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Stuart Hamm: Pas got loaded into Silk in Mainframe right??? \nCan't remember where it's stated though..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "and" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Watkins: I thought Silk got loaded into Pas at Mainframe, \"healing\" \nPas in the sense of turning him into, in part at least, the \"Silver Silk\" who later possesses Pig." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why do you think the technicians carried the leader of a single Whorl city all the way to Mainframe to repair Pas? If anyone would do, why not use someone more accessible? Why wait 20 years when in order to use someone from the Cargo?\n\nJ\n?_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-18T19:17:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "<586816.35407.qm@web81401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: James Wynn [mailto:crushtv at gmail.com]\nSent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 11:50 AM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) Babbie\n\n\nFrom: \"Son of Witz\" \nSent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 9:43 PM\n\"Yo Dawg, I heard you like reading about possesion, so we put some Pas in \nyour Silk and some Silk in your Horn so you can read about Pas while you \nread about Silk while you read about Horn.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "*inserts photoshopped pic of Xzibit with two heads*" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And there my friends is Horn riding the beast with three Horns...for Horn is \na clone of Typhon, and the Neighbor who reanimated him is Horn (so he says \nin his meeting with the Neighbors), and Silk --a clone of Typhon's son with \nKypris-- was possessed by Pas and so used to heal Pas at the end of LS: \nFather, Son, and Holy Spirit. One and yet three." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wait. Horn a clone of Typhon?!?!?!?! What makes you suggest that? \nI guess I can sort of swallow, chokingly, the idea that Horn became a neighbor in the pit as Stu describes. I'd have to read it again.\nI got that Silk was a special embryo, but where is the suggestion that it was Typhon and Kypris's son? I must have missed that completely. I have to admit that I didn't pick up on Pas in Silk in either LS or SS. only on retrospect, after Stu made me notice the pen case.\nand Re: the three in one, I get that. But is can one aspect of the trinity \"ride\" the itself and the other two? I guess it's close enough for prophesy. But I read it as Horn on a 3 Horned beast, making 4 Horns total.\n\ncraziness.\n\n\ndo you guys get the Yo Dawg meme joke? So stupid, so funny. I know Jordon does, if he's currently reading?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8AD7076F-7C96-43F0-85EE-02DF5087A481@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T19:21:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 18, 2009, at 2:17 PM, Son of Witz wrote:\ndo you guys get the Yo Dawg meme joke? So stupid, so funny. I know \nJordon does, if he's currently reading?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I did.\n\nI was attempting not to dignify it with a response.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-18T19:26:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "<8AD7076F-7C96-43F0-85EE-02DF5087A481@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 18, 2009, at 2:17 PM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "do you guys get the Yo Dawg meme joke? So stupid, so funny. I know \nJordon does, if he's currently reading?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I did.\n\nI was attempting not to dignify it with a response.\n\nAdam" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "probably a good instinct, I guess. these memes have a way of taking over. The forum where I met Jordon is awash in ridiculous memes right now. they grow like cancer." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4157CDEBEFDD466CA3EB7956CB1116A9@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T19:28:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I guess I can sort of swallow, chokingly, the idea that\nHorn became a neighbor in the pit as Stu describes." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, no, no. The Neighbor in the form of a greenbuck whom Horn was chasing \nwhen he kilt hisself _became_ _Horn_: reanimating him and taking on his \nidentity. Neighbors seem to be more morally sensitive than humans because \nthe Neighbor feels such great guilt over killing Horn (as he sees it) that \nhe spends almost the entire novel coming to terms with it.\n\nJ " } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0903181229k6afc50fdxa614cd0bc0c4251a@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T19:29:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "<17D0CD2F2B494DE9A3381E1476CB09FD@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm actually rereading it right now...read chapter one of On Blue's Waters\nlast night. I'll keep an eye out for signs that Horn is Typhon's clone.\n\nMy theory is that it all comes down to two passages in Long Sun--Incus\nexplaining that demons can't pretend to be gods without being absorbed into\nthe god, and the Outsider telling Silk that he's absorbing Kypris, and that,\neven if Kypris is killed, he'll simply absorb Thelx as instead. Typhons\nfamily *are *demons, in a very real sense, and the Outsider is engaged in\nthe process of aborbing them into his godhood. Kypris is first and easiest,\nbecause, like the Outsider, she's a love god.\n\nSo Kypris is the one who suggests to Silk, and also (in my theory) to the\ntechnicians (via Tartaros? whatever) that Silk must be taken to Mainframe\nfor Pas. The addition of the basically-good Silk-soul into the\nbasically-evil Typhon soul that constitutes Pas is the first step of\nredeeming Pas into a god fit for worship on Blue.\n\nAnyway, that's my reading. I'd argue that Silk/Horn's role in bringing\npeace to the soul of Scylla is additional evidence that this is what's going\non, thematically, in the books." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 3:15 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "John Watkins: Horn is a clone of Typhon?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes. Tussah too. Next time you read SS, read it with the possibility in\nmind that Horn is Typhon; the first hint is when Horn gives his little\nlecture to his family about Pas having the ability to come to Blue." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "John Watkins: I also don't think Silk was possessed by Pas..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Of course not. Few people seem to. Theories are a dime-a-dozen here. I\nwon't strip you of yours." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Stuart Hamm: Pas got loaded into Silk in Mainframe right???" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " >Can't remember where it's stated though...\nand\nJohn Watkins: I thought *Silk* got loaded into *Pas* at Mainframe,\n\"healing\"\n >Pas in the sense of turning him into, in part at least, the \"Silver\nSilk\" who later possesses Pig.\nWhy do you think the technicians carried the leader of a single Whorl city\nall the way to Mainframe to repair Pas? If anyone would do, why not use\nsomeone more accessible? Why wait 20 years when in order to use someone from\nthe Cargo?\n\nJ\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<596061.87639.qm@web81408.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Stuart Hamm", "address": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2009-03-18T19:39:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "<4157CDEBEFDD466CA3EB7956CB1116A9@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "OBW p 27 \n\"I must have known that something enormously significant? was happening, and associated it with out haunch of greenbuck\"\n\nJ, I love you man, again..please come to my house and explain everything and then I can get back to my recording next CD....and my \"life\"\n\n???? Mobile — (415) 786-3624\n???? Skype? stuart.hamm\nmyspace.com/stuhamm\n? ??? stuarthamm.net\n\n\n--- On Wed, 3/18/09, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: James Wynn \nSubject: Re: (urth) Babbie\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, March 18, 2009, 12:28 PM\nI guess I can sort of swallow, chokingly, the idea that\nHorn became a neighbor in the pit as Stu describes." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, no, no. The Neighbor in the form of a greenbuck whom Horn was chasing when\nhe kilt hisself _became_ _Horn_: reanimating him and taking on his identity.\nNeighbors seem to be more morally sensitive than humans because the Neighbor\nfeels such great guilt over killing Horn (as he sees it) that he spends almost\nthe entire novel coming to terms with it.\n\nJ " } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0903181241j5fae1c39hafc4e5f9aff6f3a2@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T19:41:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "<4157CDEBEFDD466CA3EB7956CB1116A9@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's the freaking plot of Alan Moore's second Swamp Thing story and I'm an\nabsolute moron for missing it.\n\nThis always happens with Gene Wolfe, doesn't it?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 3:28 PM, James Wynn wrote:\n I guess I can sort of swallow, chokingly, the idea that\nHorn became a neighbor in the pit as Stu describes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No, no, no. The Neighbor in the form of a greenbuck whom Horn was chasing\nwhen he kilt hisself _became_ _Horn_: reanimating him and taking on his\nidentity. Neighbors seem to be more morally sensitive than humans because\nthe Neighbor feels such great guilt over killing Horn (as he sees it) that\nhe spends almost the entire novel coming to terms with it.\n\nJ\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-18T19:43:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0903181241j5fae1c39hafc4e5f9aff6f3a2@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: James Wynn [mailto:crushtv at gmail.com]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I guess I can sort of swallow, chokingly, the idea that\nHorn became a neighbor in the pit as Stu describes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No, no, no. The Neighbor in the form of a greenbuck whom Horn was chasing \nwhen he kilt hisself _became_ _Horn_: reanimating him and taking on his \nidentity. Neighbors seem to be more morally sensitive than humans because \nthe Neighbor feels such great guilt over killing Horn (as he sees it) that \nhe spends almost the entire novel coming to terms with it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James, you officially just blew my fucking mind." } ] }, { "message_id": "<51775B49-678E-4E13-8E34-49A070EBA4A2@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T19:46:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 18, 2009, at 2:43 PM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: James Wynn [mailto:crushtv at gmail.com]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I guess I can sort of swallow, chokingly, the idea that\nHorn became a neighbor in the pit as Stu describes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "No, no, no. The Neighbor in the form of a greenbuck whom Horn was \nchasing\nwhen he kilt hisself _became_ _Horn_: reanimating him and taking on \nhis\nidentity. Neighbors seem to be more morally sensitive than humans \nbecause\nthe Neighbor feels such great guilt over killing Horn (as he sees \nit) that\nhe spends almost the entire novel coming to terms with it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James, you officially just blew my fucking mind." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This only sort of gently stroked my mind, largely with the back of its \nfingernails.\n\nIt was the part about Swamp Thing that blew my mind.\n\nNow my mind needs a refractory period.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C14FF9.6050805@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-03-18T19:48:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "<51775B49-678E-4E13-8E34-49A070EBA4A2@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thematically, do you think Wolfe is pondering the extent and manner in which we make our own gods? Certainly the matter of \"false\" gods serving the true god is present in BotNS, and seems to continue in LS/SS." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 15:29:01 -0400\nFrom: John Watkins \nSubject: Re: (urth) Babbie\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID:\n\t<93d4039f0903181229k6afc50fdxa614cd0bc0c4251a at mail.gmail.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nI'm actually rereading it right now...read chapter one of On Blue's Waters\nlast night. I'll keep an eye out for signs that Horn is Typhon's clone.\n\nMy theory is that it all comes down to two passages in Long Sun--Incus\nexplaining that demons can't pretend to be gods without being absorbed into\nthe god, and the Outsider telling Silk that he's absorbing Kypris, and that,\neven if Kypris is killed, he'll simply absorb Thelx as instead. Typhons\nfamily *are *demons, in a very real sense, and the Outsider is engaged in\nthe process of aborbing them into his godhood. Kypris is first and easiest,\nbecause, like the Outsider, she's a love god.\n\nSo Kypris is the one who suggests to Silk, and also (in my theory) to the\ntechnicians (via Tartaros? whatever) that Silk must be taken to Mainframe\nfor Pas. The addition of the basically-good Silk-soul into the\nbasically-evil Typhon soul that constitutes Pas is the first step of\nredeeming Pas into a god fit for worship on Blue.\n\nAnyway, that's my reading. I'd argue that Silk/Horn's role in bringing\npeace to the soul of Scylla is additional evidence that this is what's going\non, thematically, in the books." } ] }, { "message_id": "<143228.94104.qm@web81402.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Stuart Hamm", "address": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2009-03-18T19:49:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "<51775B49-678E-4E13-8E34-49A070EBA4A2@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "tell me about it...I just started TttW, now I gotta go back and re-re-re-read the 1st 2...\n\n???? Mobile — (415) 786-3624\n???? Skype? stuart.hamm\nmyspace.com/stuhamm\n? ??? stuarthamm.net\n\n\n--- On Wed, 3/18/09, Adam Thornton wrote:\nFrom: Adam Thornton \nSubject: Re: (urth) Babbie\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, March 18, 2009, 12:46 PM\n\n\nOn Mar 18, 2009, at 2:43 PM, Son of Witz wrote:\n\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: James Wynn [mailto:crushtv at gmail.com]\n\nI guess I can sort of swallow, chokingly, the idea that\nHorn became a neighbor in the pit as Stu describes.\n\nNo, no, no. The Neighbor in the form of a greenbuck whom Horn was chasing \nwhen he kilt hisself _became_ _Horn_: reanimating him and taking on his \nidentity. Neighbors seem to be more morally sensitive than humans because \nthe Neighbor feels such great guilt over killing Horn (as he sees it) that \nhe spends almost the entire novel coming to terms with it.\n\n\nJames, you officially just blew my fucking mind.\n\nThis only sort of gently stroked my mind, largely with the back of its fingernails.\nIt was the part about Swamp Thing that blew my mind.\nNow my mind needs a refractory period.\nAdam_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0903181249q69e11126h40d88e9667efde34@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T19:49:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "<49C14FF9.6050805@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes and no...I think Wolfe is interested in the question of how the human\nmind approaches the divine and in the way that the Divine approaches the\nhuman mind." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 3:48 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nThematically, do you think Wolfe is pondering the extent and manner in\nwhich we make our own gods? Certainly the matter of \"false\" gods serving the\ntrue god is present in BotNS, and seems to continue in LS/SS.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 15:29:01 -0400\nFrom: John Watkins \nSubject: Re: (urth) Babbie\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID:\n <93d4039f0903181229k6afc50fdxa614cd0bc0c4251a at mail.gmail.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nI'm actually rereading it right now...read chapter one of On Blue's Waters\nlast night. I'll keep an eye out for signs that Horn is Typhon's clone.\n\nMy theory is that it all comes down to two passages in Long Sun--Incus\nexplaining that demons can't pretend to be gods without being absorbed into\nthe god, and the Outsider telling Silk that he's absorbing Kypris, and\nthat,\neven if Kypris is killed, he'll simply absorb Thelx as instead. Typhons\nfamily *are *demons, in a very real sense, and the Outsider is engaged in\nthe process of aborbing them into his godhood. Kypris is first and\neasiest,\nbecause, like the Outsider, she's a love god.\n\nSo Kypris is the one who suggests to Silk, and also (in my theory) to the\ntechnicians (via Tartaros? whatever) that Silk must be taken to Mainframe\nfor Pas. The addition of the basically-good Silk-soul into the\nbasically-evil Typhon soul that constitutes Pas is the first step of\nredeeming Pas into a god fit for worship on Blue.\n\nAnyway, that's my reading. I'd argue that Silk/Horn's role in bringing\npeace to the soul of Scylla is additional evidence that this is what's\ngoing\non, thematically, in the books.\n\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 090317-0, 03/17/2009\nTested on: 3/18/2009 3:48:11 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-18T19:54:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0903181249q69e11126h40d88e9667efde34@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James, you officially just blew my fucking mind." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This only sort of gently stroked my mind, largely with the back of its \nfingernails.\n\nIt was the part about Swamp Thing that blew my mind.\n\nNow my mind needs a refractory period.\n\nAdam" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I ought to reread those as an adult. I remember Swamp Thing being a bit obtuse to me when I picked it up. I assume that, given it's Moore, it holds up after all this time. Sadly, I reread Return of the Dark Knight recently and found it wasn't quite as great as I'd always thought it was. Yet I reread Watchmen for the 11th time last week and it was better than ever.\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0903181257m4d533ae1y8f298d36956f09a2@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T19:57:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dark Knight Returns is a mess philosophically, but it has some fantastic\ndialogue (well...fantastic inner monologue.)\n\nThis mud pit...is an operating table. And I'm the surgeon.\n\nSomething inside me tells me to stop with the leg. I don't listen." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 3:54 PM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "James, you officially just blew my fucking mind." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This only sort of gently stroked my mind, largely with the back of its\nfingernails.\n\nIt was the part about Swamp Thing that blew my mind.\n\nNow my mind needs a refractory period.\n\nAdam" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I ought to reread those as an adult. I remember Swamp Thing being a bit\nobtuse to me when I picked it up. I assume that, given it's Moore, it holds\nup after all this time. Sadly, I reread Return of the Dark Knight recently\nand found it wasn't quite as great as I'd always thought it was. Yet I\nreread Watchmen for the 11th time last week and it was better than ever.\n~witz\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-18T20:09:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0903181257m4d533ae1y8f298d36956f09a2@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "yeah, I can only really enjoy Millers pulpy dialogue at this point." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: John Watkins [mailto:john.watkins04 at gmail.com]\nSent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 12:57 PM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) Babbie\n\nDark Knight Returns is a mess philosophically, but it has some fantastic\ndialogue (well...fantastic inner monologue.)\n\nThis mud pit...is an operating table. And I'm the surgeon.\n\nSomething inside me tells me to stop with the leg. I don't listen.\n\nOn Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 3:54 PM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "James, you officially just blew my fucking mind." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "This only sort of gently stroked my mind, largely with the back of its\nfingernails.\n\nIt was the part about Swamp Thing that blew my mind.\n\nNow my mind needs a refractory period.\n\nAdam" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I ought to reread those as an adult. I remember Swamp Thing being a bit\nobtuse to me when I picked it up. I assume that, given it's Moore, it holds\nup after all this time. Sadly, I reread Return of the Dark Knight recently\nand found it wasn't quite as great as I'd always thought it was. Yet I\nreread Watchmen for the 11th time last week and it was better than ever.\n~witz\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C173FE.3090304@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-03-18T22:21:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, much better put. In reaching toward the divine, humans make stuff up. Some of it is true, some of it is less true.\n\nBut Wolfe doesn't seem to see any of the stuff we make up as dead ends, false gods, idols, or traps and snares. Rather, it's all good, especially if the Divine isn't offended but reaches out in turn to make the false true. And that fits his oeuvre, which is consistent in this regard, from Soldier of Sidon to Free Live Free and the Eyeflash Miracles to The Wizard Knight." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 3\nDate: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 15:49:56 -0400\nFrom: John Watkins \nSubject: Re: (urth) Babbie" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-18T23:40:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "<49C173FE.3090304@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: James Wynn [mailto:crushtv at gmail.com]\nSent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 12:28 PM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) Babbie" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I guess I can sort of swallow, chokingly, the idea that\nHorn became a neighbor in the pit as Stu describes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No, no, no. The Neighbor in the form of a greenbuck whom Horn was chasing \nwhen he kilt hisself _became_ _Horn_: reanimating him and taking on his \nidentity. Neighbors seem to be more morally sensitive than humans because \nthe Neighbor feels such great guilt over killing Horn (as he sees it) that \nhe spends almost the entire novel coming to terms with it.\n\nJ " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Man, this is so twisted.\nwhat is the symbolic point of this. and wouldn't there be four quills in the pen case if Wolfe was really plotting this idea into it?\nI've forgotten, how can a Neighbor be a greenbuck?\nDoes the spend the book feeling remorseful about it. Why wouldn't the narrator come clean. It seems to me like the narrator spends the book denying that Silk is present within him, which is why he starts with \"facts\" \"My name is Horn\"\n\nor does a neighbor just heal him because he's not too broken, unlike on Green, when they can't reform so they transfer him. Why would a neighbor need help from another neighbor like this?\n\nisn't he just called Neighbor-Man because of Seawrack's ring." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T00:30:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Me: No, no, no. The Neighbor in the form of a greenbuck whom Horn was \nchasing\nwhen he kilt hisself _became_ _Horn_: reanimating him and taking on his\nidentity. Neighbors seem to be more morally sensitive than humans because\nthe Neighbor feels such great guilt over killing Horn (as he sees it) that\nhe spends almost the entire novel coming to terms with it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Witz: Man, this is so twisted.\nwhat is the symbolic point of this[?]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, it *does* afford Wolfe the opportunity to (once again) explore the \nconcept of the Trinity and to provide a rationalized example of it.\nAlso, Wolfe (once again) get's to provide a layer of unreliability to his \nnarrator, which makes him very happy. Also, it provides an added depth to \nthe story that the reader cannot get his mind around without a repeated \nreading which also makes him very happy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and wouldn't there be four quills in the pen\ncase if Wolfe was really plotting this idea into it?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not at all. All three are Horn and all three are riding." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I've forgotten, how can a Neighbor be a greenbuck?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps, the same way he became Horn. Who knows? Not me. How can a Neighbor \nbe a tree (remember those \"sleepy\" trees that Horn mentions)? Don't they \nremind you huorns? Didn't the arrangement of the Neighbors remind you of \ntrees (standing and felled)? I don't know how that is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Does the spend the book feeling remorseful about it.\nWhy wouldn't the narrator come clean.\nIt seems to me like the narrator spends the book denying\nthat Silk is present within him, which is why\nhe starts with \"facts\" \"My name is Horn\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Here is the post in which I explained all this the first time (causing \nbarely a ripple at the time):\nhttp://lists.urth.net/htdig.cgi/urth-urth.net/2004-December/004360.html\n\nHorn is really confused about who _Horn_ is as well. Remember when he tells \nthe story of the final destruction of Horn's body on Green?\n[IGJ (HB) pg 122]\n\"'Was this you for real Incanto? Were you on Green? By Echidna's babies, I\nthink you were!'\n\"I shook my head and told him it had been someone else, a man whose name I\nhave forgotten, a man who wore a ring with a white stone. My own name is\nHorn, no matter what Oreb may say.\"\n\nHe denies that he is Silk because he doesn't feel guilty over Silk's death. \nSilk had already killed himself when the Neighbors gave him his body and \nreanimated him as the Narrarator (let's call him 'The Raja' as Wolfe does) \ndid with Horn's broken body before." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "or does a neighbor just heal him because he's not too broken,\nunlike on Green, when they can't reform so they transfer him.\nWhy would a neighbor need help from another neighbor like this?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Seawrack and Babbie could plainly see that Horn was dead. I presume his neck \nwas broken. Silk had bled out (or almost so) when the Raja got his body and \nmemories. Those are pretty severe injuries.\nPerhaps they can only reanimate a body once. Or maybe some particular part \nof Horn's body was damaged that prevented repair. Or too many parts. We're \nnot told.\n\nPerhaps, he needed help because there was no other body for him to go to. \nMaybe if he had an assisting inhumi to help him dream-travel he could have \nsaved himself. I don't know. Perhaps by resurrecting Horn, the Raja tied \nhimself to the fate of Horn's body without extraordinary assistance. All we \nknow is what the Neighbor told the him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "isn't he just called Neighbor-Man because of Seawrack's ring." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd have to look it up, but IIRC he was called Neighbor-Man by He-Pen-Sheep \nbefore he met with the Neighbors.\n\nJ " } ] }, { "message_id": "<20090319023228.GR21587@broggs.org>", "from": { "name": "Jeffrey Brent McBeth", "address": "mcbeth at broggs.org" }, "date": "2009-03-19T02:32:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "isn't he just called Neighbor-Man because of Seawrack's ring." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'd have to look it up, but IIRC he was called Neighbor-Man by \nHe-Pen-Sheep before he met with the Neighbors." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He was, but he already had the ring at that point. And the Neighbor\nfeigning to be Horn makes Horns' permission for the Neighbors to be on\nBlue pointless.\n\nJeff" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "----------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\"The man who does not read good books has no advantage over \n the man who cannot read them.\"\n -- Mark Twain\n----------------------------------------------------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T02:54:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "<20090319023228.GR21587@broggs.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He was, but he already had the ring at that point. ?And the Neighbor\nfeigning to be Horn makes Horns' permission for the Neighbors to be on\nBlue pointless." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No. It makes the Raja the Mediator between the Neighbors and Mankind:\nBoth Neighbor and Human. Remind you of anyone?\n\nJ" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3B9CA387-1367-4B15-AE3A-E36CA1D5A738@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-19T04:39:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Mar 18, 2009, at 7:54 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nHe was, but he already had the ring at that point. And the Neighbor\nfeigning to be Horn makes Horns' permission for the Neighbors to be \non\nBlue pointless." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No. It makes the Raja the Mediator between the Neighbors and Mankind:\nBoth Neighbor and Human. Remind you of anyone?\n\nJ" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think there's some timeline screw up here.\nWhen Horn get's permission, he's plain Horn. The Rajan writes about it \nafter the fact, with his Horn memories.\nhe'd have to be lying, which is of course possible, but..." } ] }, { "message_id": "<176065.18290.qm@web37605.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T05:02:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "<49C173FE.3090304@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David, that's a really interesting reading. I tend to think that Wolfe is more ambiguous. It's not all good, and, in fact, the way I see it, most of his stories are about the never-ending problems of figuring out the dead ends from the good made up stuff. Otherwise, why wouldn't Severian be fine believing in the Claw? Or why would Silk have to have the Outsider help him see through Pas? Or why would Able have to be forced to look up to Michael instead of down to Disiri, etc.\n\nI think you're right that, in the end, all the \"false gods\" seem to be able to be integrated, but it takes his heroes a lot of time figuring out how to do it properly without following divergent paths.\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: David Stockhoff \nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 5:21:50 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Babbie\n\nYes, much better put. In reaching toward the divine, humans make stuff up. Some of it is true, some of it is less true.\n\nBut Wolfe doesn't seem to see any of the stuff we make up as dead ends, false gods, idols, or traps and snares. Rather, it's all good, especially if the Divine isn't offended but reaches out in turn to make the false true. And that fits his oeuvre, which is consistent in this regard, from Soldier of Sidon to Free Live Free and the Eyeflash Miracles to The Wizard Knight." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 3\nDate: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 15:49:56 -0400\nFrom: John Watkins \nSubject: Re: (urth) Babbie" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93EF3F2B27F14A66B216B9275E6EA40A@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T05:09:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "<3B9CA387-1367-4B15-AE3A-E36CA1D5A738@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Witz: I think there's some timeline screw up here.\nWhen Horn get's permission, he's plain Horn. The Rajan writes about it \nafter the fact, with his Horn memories.\nhe'd have to be lying, which is of course possible, but..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "When tBotSS starts, it is the Raja who is writing. Not only is he Horn, but \nhe is also Silk. He has already flown to Green and died, returned to the \nWhorl, and come back to rule. The Raja is a Neighbor, but he has all of \nHorn's memories and identity within him. Same for Silk. 100% of what Horn \nwas is within him. 100% of Silk.\n\nThe Raja makes a choice to assert Horn within him. He could have chosen to \ndo the same for Silk. He doesn't for a very obvious reason. When he says \nhe's Horn, he's not lying. He's disturbed. As so often is the case with \nWolfe's characters, he's telling a lie that is also the truth, but it's not \nthe whole truth.\n\nHe denies his Neighborness for the same reason he denies he is \nSilk...because if he's really \"not-Horn\" then Horn is dead and he killed \nhim. It is not until after the battle that he embraces who he is at a \nconscious level. But he still can't bring himself to face Hoof and Hide on \nthe day he leaves for the Whorl --as he says-- because he killed their \nfather.\n\nJ.\n\nMarble:\n\"It was I, the one who prayed, who lied and lied too. I know that must seem \nillogical, yet it was so.\"\nOn Blue's Waters, Chap. 3 " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-19T05:23:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "<93EF3F2B27F14A66B216B9275E6EA40A@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Mar 18, 2009, at 10:09 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nWitz: I think there's some timeline screw up here.\nWhen Horn get's permission, he's plain Horn. The Rajan writes about \nit after the fact, with his Horn memories.\nhe'd have to be lying, which is of course possible, but..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When tBotSS starts, it is the Raja who is writing. Not only is he \nHorn, but he is also Silk. He has already flown to Green and died, \nreturned to the Whorl, and come back to rule. The Raja is a \nNeighbor, but he has all of Horn's memories and identity within him. \nSame for Silk. 100% of what Horn was is within him. 100% of Silk.\n\nThe Raja makes a choice to assert Horn within him. He could have \nchosen to do the same for Silk. He doesn't for a very obvious \nreason. When he says he's Horn, he's not lying. He's disturbed. As \nso often is the case with Wolfe's characters, he's telling a lie \nthat is also the truth, but it's not the whole truth.\n\nHe denies his Neighborness for the same reason he denies he is \nSilk...because if he's really \"not-Horn\" then Horn is dead and he \nkilled him. It is not until after the battle that he embraces who he \nis at a conscious level. But he still can't bring himself to face \nHoof and Hide on the day he leaves for the Whorl --as he says-- \nbecause he killed their father.\n\nJ." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ok. I just read that old post of yours, and I think I get you more \nclearly.\nhttp://lists.urth.net/htdig.cgi/urth-urth.net/2004-December/004360.html\n\nYou're NOT including Pas in your Trinity right? just Horn/Silk/ \nNeighbor. Not Horn/Silk/Neighbor/Pas.\nIt's very interesting what you're laying out. but if the souls add up \nto four, it's not right. But it looks like you're only counting three \nsouls, so it may hold water.\nI think what is needed to really seal the deal for me is some textual \nreason to have the Greenbuck a Neighbor. My memory loses track of lots \nof things, but I can't remember justifcation for that.\nI certainly felt, when I read the pit scene, that he had died, but \nthat may have just been Severian conditioning on my brain. Then I was \nunsure aftewards.\n\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris P", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T05:41:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Witz: I think there's some timeline screw up here.\nWhen Horn get's permission, he's plain Horn. The Rajan writes about \nit after the fact, with his Horn memories.\nhe'd have to be lying, which is of course possible, but..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "When tBotSS starts, it is the Raja who is writing. Not only is he \nHorn, but he is also Silk. He has already flown to Green and died, \nreturned to the Whorl, and come back to rule. The Raja is a \nNeighbor, but he has all of Horn's memories and identity within him. \nSame for Silk. 100% of what Horn was is within him. 100% of Silk.\n\nThe Raja makes a choice to assert Horn within him. He could have \nchosen to do the same for Silk. He doesn't for a very obvious \nreason. When he says he's Horn, he's not lying. He's disturbed. As \nso often is the case with Wolfe's characters, he's telling a lie \nthat is also the truth, but it's not the whole truth.\n\nHe denies his Neighborness for the same reason he denies he is \nSilk...because if he's really \"not-Horn\" then Horn is dead and he \nkilled him. It is not until after the battle that he embraces who he \nis at a conscious level. But he still can't bring himself to face \nHoof and Hide on the day he leaves for the Whorl --as he says-- \nbecause he killed their father.\n\nJ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ok. I just read that old post of yours, and I think I get you more \nclearly.\nhttp://lists.urth.net/htdig.cgi/urth-urth.net/2004-December/004360.html\n\nWitz: You're NOT including Pas in your Trinity right? just Horn/Silk/ \nNeighbor. Not Horn/Silk/Neighbor/Pas." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "At least the way I read it, Pas did not have a soul as such. He was a... pattern, or a psyche (in the terminology I remember us using in that particular conversation) at best. Typhon's soul stayed with Typhon. Even that psyche was not exactly Typhon, because it had either changed on its own or been edited to fit its new role on the ship (not to mention the things that happened to it afterward)." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4A7B1069-BA31-4A2D-91BA-1B1FFF589143@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-19T05:49:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 18, 2009, at 10:41 PM, Chris P wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Witz: I think there's some timeline screw up here.\nWhen Horn get's permission, he's plain Horn. The Rajan writes \nabout\nit after the fact, with his Horn memories.\nhe'd have to be lying, which is of course possible, but..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "When tBotSS starts, it is the Raja who is writing. Not only is he\nHorn, but he is also Silk. He has already flown to Green and died,\nreturned to the Whorl, and come back to rule. The Raja is a\nNeighbor, but he has all of Horn's memories and identity within \nhim.\nSame for Silk. 100% of what Horn was is within him. 100% of Silk.\n\nThe Raja makes a choice to assert Horn within him. He could have\nchosen to do the same for Silk. He doesn't for a very obvious\nreason. When he says he's Horn, he's not lying. He's disturbed. As\nso often is the case with Wolfe's characters, he's telling a lie\nthat is also the truth, but it's not the whole truth.\n\nHe denies his Neighborness for the same reason he denies he is\nSilk...because if he's really \"not-Horn\" then Horn is dead and he\nkilled him. It is not until after the battle that he embraces \nwho he\nis at a conscious level. But he still can't bring himself to face\nHoof and Hide on the day he leaves for the Whorl --as he says--\nbecause he killed their father.\n\nJ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Ok. I just read that old post of yours, and I think I get you more\nclearly.\nhttp://lists.urth.net/htdig.cgi/urth-urth.net/2004-December/004360.html\n\nWitz: You're NOT including Pas in your Trinity right? just Horn/ \nSilk/\nNeighbor. Not Horn/Silk/Neighbor/Pas." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At least the way I read it, Pas did not have a soul as such. He was \na... pattern, or a psyche (in the terminology I remember us using in \nthat particular conversation) at best. Typhon's soul stayed with \nTyphon. Even that psyche was not exactly Typhon, because it had \neither changed on its own or been edited to fit its new role on the \nship (not to mention the things that happened to it afterward)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I hear you. But wouldn't that mean that Divine Silk was a pattern and \nnot a soul or psyche?\nI've understood that it was Divine Silk that got into Pig and thus \nHorn/Silk.\nUnless of course, Divine Silk doesn't really factor in at all, and \nsomehow Silk's soul got into Pig by some other means.\n\nI'm not trying to make a watertight case for any particular view, just \ntrying to parse out the possibilities. I'm completely up in the air \nabout it.\nI know I thoroughly enjoyed these books before I even got a clue about \nthe third soul. If Stu hadn't clued me into the pen case, I don't \nthink I would have caught a whiff at all." } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C22FFF.1050301@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-03-19T11:43:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "<4A7B1069-BA31-4A2D-91BA-1B1FFF589143@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Those are good examples---I couldn't think of any right off. Yes, that's what I meant by \"true\" and \"less true.\" That is, there is never just \"bad\" and \"good.\" \n\nAny mistaken belief can be a step toward realizing and undoing that belief, and moving closer to a true understanding. The journey naturally is no straight path you can fall off of into damnation, nor a maze exactly, but rather a tangle. A path through a wood.\n\nThus, even the dead ends are not really \"dead\" just as the gods and their myths are not really \"false,\" and since the \"traps and snares\" I referred to (Milton) are always set by the Devil, who apparently has no presence in Wolfe (or if he does he works for the Increate), they don't exist. It's an interesting contrast with Protestantism---and Satan-obsessed Catholicism?\n\nEven Catholic priests can become stuck, I guess (haven't read Pirate Freedom). If we become trapped, we do it ourselves. One could be trapped forever, I suppose, but I don't think anyone is ever condemned for it ... even Baldanders." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 7\nDate: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 22:02:29 -0700 (PDT)\nFrom: Craig Brewer \nSubject: Re: (urth) Babbie" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T11:45:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "<4A7B1069-BA31-4A2D-91BA-1B1FFF589143@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Witz: You're NOT including Pas in your Trinity right? just Horn/ \nSilk/Neighbor. Not Horn/Silk/Neighbor/Pas." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Chis P: At least the way I read it, Pas did not have a soul as such. He \nwas a... pattern, or a psyche (in the terminology I remember us using in \nthat particular conversation) at best. Typhon's soul stayed with Typhon. \nEven that psyche was not exactly Typhon, because it had either changed \non its own or been edited to fit its new role on the ship (not to \nmention the things that happened to it afterward)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I hear you. But wouldn't that mean that Divine Silk was a pattern and \nnot a soul or psyche?\nI've understood that it was Divine Silk that got into Pig and thus \nHorn/Silk.\nUnless of course, Divine Silk doesn't really factor in at all, and \nsomehow Silk's soul got into Pig by some other means." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The question of whether Wolfe views souls as physical/wave or metaphysical \nentities is still an issue of debate. He treats them as both. But think of \nAbel's discussion with Mani the cat about whether he is a cat or an \nelemental spirit. Abel says he is neither. For as long as they are together, \nhe's a new entity made up of both.\n\nThere are only three people in the Raja...and only three souls. When the \nRaja takes on Silk's body and his mind, he takes on both Silk and any daemon \nriding along when he died --which would not be Silk or Pas but the Silk-Pas. \nThis is further complicated by the fact that Pas is no longer the original \nPas either. They had to add a little bit of Silk to complete him (so Pas has \nSilk's head now). Consequently, Pas himself is also Silk-Pas, so what's the \ndifference? (And Typhon, when Sev met him --and apparently when he was \nscanned-- also consisted of two souls, right? Hmmmm...The head that was \nchanged in Pas was the tyrant's, not Pieton's, right?. How much of the old \nUrth's calde even exists in Pas anymore? )\n\nSo, only three souls and only three Horns. But the three are not necessarily \nthe same three. If you are familiar with the way Wolfe weaves mythology into \nhis stories and characters, then you know he's quite comfortable with this \nsort of double and triple -iteration.\n\nJ " } ] }, { "message_id": "<2993.67.142.130.34.1237463768.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-19T11:56:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "<49C22FFF.1050301@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thus, even the dead ends are not really \"dead\" just as the gods and their\nmyths are not really \"false,\" and since the \"traps and snares\" I referred\nto (Milton) are always set by the Devil, who apparently has no presence in\nWolfe (or if he does he works for the Increate), they don't exist. It's an\ninteresting contrast with Protestantism---and Satan-obsessed Catholicism?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Catholicism isn't anywhere near as Satan-obsessed as Protestantism. In my\nopinion, anyway.\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0903190652k7fa96bcaj348e9c1fb154b034@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T13:52:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 7:45 AM, James Wynn wrote:\n Witz: You're NOT including Pas in your Trinity right? just Horn/\nSilk/Neighbor. Not Horn/Silk/Neighbor/Pas." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The question of whether Wolfe views souls as physical/wave or metaphysical\nentities is still an issue of debate. He treats them as both. But think of\nAbel's discussion with Mani the cat about whether he is a cat or an\nelemental spirit. Abel says he is neither. For as long as they are together,\nhe's a new entity made up of both." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's basic Thomism, which of course Wolfe is familiar with. It's possible\nthat Thomistic rules apply only in Wizard Knight, which is explicitly a\nmedieval-style world, but I doubt it. I think that all Wolfe souls are\nThomistic souls--patterns or animating essences of spirits. That's why\nSeverian is able to carry Thecla's soul by gaining her memories and how the\naquastors work--a person's \"soul\" is really just the pattern of their\npersonality, which can be perfectly reconstructed by perfect memory or\nimperfectly reconstructed by incomplete or imperfect memories." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There are only three people in the Raja...and only three souls. When the\nRaja takes on Silk's body and his mind, he takes on both Silk and any daemon\nriding along when he died --which would not be Silk or Pas but the Silk-Pas." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Could be...I'm still not sure Pas went into Silk at the end of Long Sun. If\nhe didn't, that's just Silk in Silk's body until the Horn-patterned Neighbor\nshows up." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is further complicated by the fact that Pas is no longer the original\nPas either. They had to add a little bit of Silk to complete him (so Pas has\nSilk's head now)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Definitely agree--this is the Silver Silk, a Pas/Silk gestalt with Silk's\npersonality \"in front.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Consequently, Pas himself is also Silk-Pas, so what's the difference?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Presumably their varying experiences in the time that passed since Long Sun\nended if you're right about the merger...if Pas didn't go into Silk at\nMainframe, then that scene in Return to the Whorl is a Pig/Silk/Pas gestalt,\nwith Silk in front, talking to a Silk/Horn-patterned Neighbor gestalt.\nPig/Silk/Pas seems to recognize both Horn and Silk in the gestalt." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And Typhon, when Sev met him --and apparently when he was scanned-- also\nconsisted of two souls, right? Hmmmm...The head that was changed in Pas was\nthe tyrant's, not Pieton's, right?. How much of the old Urth's calde even\nexists in Pas anymore? )" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure Pieton's soul was scanned--why would it be? The portrayals of\ntwo-headed Pas has symbolic value that don't depend on Pieton's soul having\nactually been uploaded.\n\nI also want to note that this whole thing is a rationalization of the\nIncarnation, not the Trinity. The three Persons of the Trinity all share a\nsingle essence (in orthodox Christianity, that is), whereas Jesus Christ\npossessed two essences in a single Person. I think that these \"gestalts\"\ndefinitely have multiple essences, but over time pretty clearly merge into\none \"person\" (as Severian never really does become one with Thecla, at least\nthat we see.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So, only three souls and only three Horns. But the three are not\nnecessarily the same three. If you are familiar with the way Wolfe weaves\nmythology into his stories and characters, then you know he's quite\ncomfortable with this sort of double and triple -iteration.\n\nJ\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0903190654p11fd2b42ge04c4adb1ccce5ee@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T13:54:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "<49C22FFF.1050301@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 7:43 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\nThus, even the dead ends are not really \"dead\" just as the gods and their\nmyths are not really \"false,\" and since the \"traps and snares\" I referred to\n(Milton) are always set by the Devil, who apparently has no presence in\nWolfe (or if he does he works for the Increate), they don't exist. It's an\ninteresting contrast with Protestantism---and Satan-obsessed Catholicism?\n\nI think the Devil does exist in Wolfe's work. He's portrayed pretty\ndirectly in Wizard Knight, for example, and I'm not sure we're supposed to\nthink that there's anything redeemable about the Squid God and his ilk." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That said, I do think that Wolfe flirts with the Origenism we see in George\nMacDonald and, to a lesser extent, C.S. Lewis." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 7\nDate: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 22:02:29 -0700 (PDT)\nFrom: Craig Brewer \nSubject: Re: (urth) Babbie\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: <176065.18290.qm at web37605.mail.mud.yahoo.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii\n\n\nDavid, that's a really interesting reading. I tend to think that Wolfe is\nmore ambiguous. It's not all good, and, in fact, the way I see it, most of\nhis stories are about the never-ending problems of figuring out the dead\nends from the good made up stuff. Otherwise, why wouldn't Severian be fine\nbelieving in the Claw? Or why would Silk have to have the Outsider help him\nsee through Pas? Or why would Able have to be forced to look up to Michael\ninstead of down to Disiri, etc.\n\nI think you're right that, in the end, all the \"false gods\" seem to be able\nto be integrated, but it takes his heroes a lot of time figuring out how to\ndo it properly without following divergent paths.\n\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 090318-0, 03/18/2009\nTested on: 3/19/2009 7:44:00 AM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-19T14:00:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On Mar 19, 2009, at 4:45 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nWitz: You're NOT including Pas in your Trinity right? just Horn/ \nSilk/Neighbor. Not Horn/Silk/Neighbor/Pas." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Chis P: At least the way I read it, Pas did not have a soul as \nsuch. He was a... pattern, or a psyche (in the terminology I \nremember us using in that particular conversation) at best. \nTyphon's soul stayed with Typhon. Even that psyche was not \nexactly Typhon, because it had either changed on its own or been \nedited to fit its new role on the ship (not to mention the things \nthat happened to it afterward)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I hear you. But wouldn't that mean that Divine Silk was a pattern \nand not a soul or psyche?\nI've understood that it was Divine Silk that got into Pig and thus \nHorn/Silk.\nUnless of course, Divine Silk doesn't really factor in at all, and \nsomehow Silk's soul got into Pig by some other means." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The question of whether Wolfe views souls as physical/wave or \nmetaphysical entities is still an issue of debate. He treats them as \nboth. But think of Abel's discussion with Mani the cat about whether \nhe is a cat or an elemental spirit. Abel says he is neither. For as \nlong as they are together, he's a new entity made up of both.\n\nThere are only three people in the Raja...and only three souls. \nWhen the Raja takes on Silk's body and his mind, he takes on both \nSilk and any daemon riding along when he died --which would not be \nSilk or Pas but the Silk-Pas. This is further complicated by the \nfact that Pas is no longer the original Pas either. They had to add \na little bit of Silk to complete him (so Pas has Silk's head now). \nConsequently, Pas himself is also Silk-Pas, so what's the \ndifference? (And Typhon, when Sev met him --and apparently when he \nwas scanned-- also consisted of two souls, right? Hmmmm...The head \nthat was changed in Pas was the tyrant's, not Pieton's, right?. How \nmuch of the old Urth's calde even exists in Pas anymore? )\n\nSo, only three souls and only three Horns. But the three are not \nnecessarily the same three. If you are familiar with the way Wolfe \nweaves mythology into his stories and characters, then you know he's \nquite comfortable with this sort of double and triple -iteration.\n\nJ\n_______________________________________________" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "hmmm. Not trying to argue, but regarding \"he takes on both Silk and \nany daemon riding along when he died --which would not be Silk or Pas \nbut the Silk-Pas.\"\ndoesn't it contradict this statement \"And Typhon, when Sev met him -- \nand apparently when he was scanned-- also consisted of two souls, \nright?\"\nis it one or two. I'd say Silk-Pas or Pas-Silk is two souls.\n\nI really think your theory is interesting, but I think it needs the \njustification for the Neighbor being a greenbuck.\nand wow, I didn't know about that whorlmap site. I'll read up there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 19, 2009, at 12:36 AM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nOh, there were. But I'm not going to get into it again, either. Just \ndon't\ntake everything thrown out here as accepted wisdom. Far, far from it.\n\n-Roy" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "nah. of course not. Not even yours, though I think you've got a pretty \ncredible take from what I've read." } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C251B9.1030806@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-03-19T14:07:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, exactly. I meant to contrast Wolfe's apparently traditional (in \nfact, steeped in 2 millennia of thought) Catholicism with both dualistic \nProtestantism and those Catholics who are in fact devil-obsessed and \nthus approach dualism. (I don't know if such call themselves \nfundamentalists or if they are something else.) For that matter, one \ncould also posit that Catholics who don't think much about God but pay a \nlot of attention to the saints and Mary are basically polytheists. \nAnother dead end, but again not treated by Wolfe as \"error\" in the \nInquisition's sense of the word. (I suspect that the church of \nSeverian's time was much like this, with the people paying more \nattention to their own ritual creations than to God. False idols again, \nbut NT, not OT.) It's my opinion that Satan is not really a Christian \nbelief anyway, just something inherited from past religions---a folk \nbelief and a symbol. Wolfe treats Satan as a myth, I believe, nothing \nmore, and not one that interests him. ------------------------------ \nMessage: 5 Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 07:56:08 -0400 (EDT) From: \nbrunians at brunians.org Subject: Re: (urth) Babbie To: \"The Urth Mailing \nList\" Message-ID: \n<2993.67.142.130.34.1237463768.squirrel at brunians.org> Content-Type: \ntext/plain;charset=iso-8859-1" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Thus, even the dead ends are not really \"dead\" just as the gods and their\nmyths are not really \"false,\" and since the \"traps and snares\" I referred\nto (Milton) are always set by the Devil, who apparently has no presence in\nWolfe (or if he does he works for the Increate), they don't exist. It's an\ninteresting contrast with Protestantism---and Satan-obsessed Catholicism?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Catholicism isn't anywhere near as Satan-obsessed as Protestantism. In my\nopinion, anyway." } ] }, { "message_id": "<35BFFEB921144B5F84880311EB50E24D@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T14:29:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Witz: I really think your theory is interesting, but I think it needs the \njustification for the Neighbor being a greenbuck." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There are casual hints about this on the level of the one Stuart Hamm \noffered, but I don't think it ever gets any clearer than OBW (HB) pg 272\n\"'My name is Horn.' I offered him my hand.\nHe took it, and this time I felt his hand and **remembered hard**, and \nseemed to\nbe covered with short, stiff hairs. Beyond that I will not say. \" (emphasis \nmine)\n\nWhat he remembers here is being a greenbuck. It doesn't sound like a human \nor a tree or a spider. Also, the Raja states that he feels personally \nresponsible for Horn's death, and the greenbuck is simply the only candidate \naround when Horn dies:\n\n\"We will sail tonight...Would you be willing to make my farewells to Hoof\nand Hide?...I've been dreading it--in a sense, I have killed their father,\nthough the Outsider surely knows that I never meant him the least harm. I\ndon't want to have to face his sons...\" --RTTW (HB) pg 411\n\nYes, he \"in a sense\" killed their father by merely accepting that he died \nand that HE is not HIM. But his answer implies that he feels he caused Horn \nactual, unintended harm which could not refer to accepting his death." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and wow, I didn't know about that whorlmap site. I'll read up there." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks. I admit I've let it go dormant as I've toiled on a more expansive \nproject that simply did not fit into a short essay. For example, when I say \nthat the Long Sun narrative overlays the myth of Aristaeus, it is not easy \nto offer a short explanation for why he did that. One day...one day...\n\nJ " } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C25A2D.1050406@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-03-19T14:43:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "<35BFFEB921144B5F84880311EB50E24D@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I forget the name of the character, but I recall that the farthest-down \"deity\" is pretty clearly identified with the farthest-up. His/her dealings with Abel thus parallel Abaia's undines' dealings with Severian. There are wars and rebellions, but they resemble Vodalus' rebellion against the State but which did not necessarily oppose the Autarch. If these creatures' offers are temptations, they are also tests.\n\nIn other words, it's far more complex than simple oppositional dualism. \n\nFalling into error doesn't doom one's soul and make one a social outcast, as the Devil giggles and snorts with glee, as in the Victorian or Protestant German imagination. So perhaps Wolfean characters do in fact treat with the devil all the time, but he is surely an aspect of the divine and thus not really the devil. Or something like that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "----------------------------------------------------------------------\n\nMessage: 1\nDate: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 09:54:30 -0400\nFrom: John Watkins \nSubject: Re: (urth) Babbie\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID:\n\t<93d4039f0903190654p11fd2b42ge04c4adb1ccce5ee at mail.gmail.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nOn Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 7:43 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Thus, even the dead ends are not really \"dead\" just as the gods and their\nmyths are not really \"false,\" and since the \"traps and snares\" I referred to\n(Milton) are always set by the Devil, who apparently has no presence in\nWolfe (or if he does he works for the Increate), they don't exist. It's an\ninteresting contrast with Protestantism---and Satan-obsessed Catholicism?\n\nI think the Devil does exist in Wolfe's work. He's portrayed pretty" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \ndirectly in Wizard Knight, for example, and I'm not sure we're supposed to\nthink that there's anything redeemable about the Squid God and his ilk.\n\nThat said, I do think that Wolfe flirts with the Origenism we see in George\nMacDonald and, to a lesser extent, C.S. Lewis." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0903190811m4fcf9806w2ad42d35f53acf66@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T15:11:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "<49C25A2D.1050406@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 10:43 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nI forget the name of the character, but I recall that the farthest-down\n\"deity\" is pretty clearly identified with the farthest-up." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Most Low God does claim to be the Most High God. But he's lying--the\ntext is fairly clear (given that it's Wolfe) on the point." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "His/her dealings with Abel thus parallel Abaia's undines' dealings with\nSeverian. There are wars and rebellions, but they resemble Vodalus'\nrebellion against the State but which did not necessarily oppose the\nAutarch. If these creatures' offers are temptations, they are also tests.\n\nIn other words, it's far more complex than simple oppositional dualism.\nFalling into error doesn't doom one's soul and make one a social outcast,\nas the Devil giggles and snorts with glee, as in the Victorian or Protestant\nGerman imagination. So perhaps Wolfean characters do in fact treat with the\ndevil all the time, but he is surely an aspect of the divine and thus not\nreally the devil. Or something like that.\n\n----------------------------------------------------------------------\n\nMessage: 1\nDate: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 09:54:30 -0400\nFrom: John Watkins \nSubject: Re: (urth) Babbie\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID:\n <93d4039f0903190654p11fd2b42ge04c4adb1ccce5ee at mail.gmail.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nOn Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 7:43 AM, David Stockhoff ", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T15:12:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0903190652k7fa96bcaj348e9c1fb154b034@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Could be...I'm still not sure Pas went into Silk at the end of Long Sun.\nIf he didn't, that's just Silk in Silk's body until the Horn-patterned Neighbor shows up." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, the individual explanations I offer have a way of cascading toward my conclusion. It's something that has to be taken as a whole. I recognize that.\nIf one acknowledges that the Raja is a Neighbor who has reanimated Horn and is in some way Horn himself, then it becomes difficult not to say, \"Hmm...resurrected Horn is a beast with TWO horns. Where does the other horn come from? Silk? How is Silk a \"horn\" or Horn? It would be tidy to say that Horn is one of those special embryos, and a clone of the *same* person of whom Silk was, but that's impossible because they don't look alike. Horn could once do a good impression of Silk, but his sons don't think he looks like him. \n\nThere are other ways to put the pieces together, in isolation, rather than say that Silk had Pas in him. But **choosing** the particular answer from among the others and accepting Horn as a clone of Typhon (which resolves other things) is only way I know of to get Horn into Silk (without feral speculation). \n\nResolving Wolfean puzzles often requires picking from multiple, viable solutions. To do that, I prefer to look at all the open problems as a whole and see which arrangement of solutions ties up the most open puzzles I have without refuting a bunch of other solutions. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I also want to note that this whole thing is a rationalization of the Incarnation, not the Trinity.\nThe three Persons of the Trinity all share a single essence (in orthodox Christianity, that is),\nwhereas Jesus Christ possessed two essences in a single Person. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Technically, I suppose you're right. But I think a Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, three-in-one analogy was what Wolfe was going for.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0903190819s657062cdp91e9aa503c880288@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T15:19:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "<13496FF28E364369A2F4C879A6D384B5@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 11:12 AM, James Wynn wrote:\n >Could be...I'm still not sure Pas went into Silk at the end of Long\nSun." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If he didn't, that's just Silk in Silk's body until the Horn-patterned\nNeighbor shows up." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, the individual explanations I offer have a way of cascading toward my\nconclusion. It's something that has to be taken as a whole. I recognize\nthat.\nIf one acknowledges that the Raja is a Neighbor who has reanimated Horn and\nis in some way Horn himself, then it becomes difficult not to say,\n\"Hmm...resurrected Horn is a beast with TWO horns. Where does the other horn\ncome from? Silk? How is Silk a \"horn\" or Horn? It would be tidy to say that\nHorn is one of those special embryos, and a clone of the *same* person of\nwhom Silk was, but that's impossible because they don't look alike.\nHorn could once do a good impression of Silk, but his sons don't think he\nlooks like him." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I see your point...the third \"horn\" is Typhon if Horn is a clone of Typhon.\nOr Horn's soul--the actual soul of the honest-to-goodness Horn goes into\nBabbie, who has two horns already, making three. I think both are plausible\nand I'll pay mind to both in my reread.\n\nI also tend to think, though, that Silk is a powered-up clone of Typhon\nrather than Typhon's biological son with \"Kypris\" or a clone of that son." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " There are other ways to put the pieces together, in isolation, rather\nthan say that Silk had Pas in him. But **choosing** the particular\nanswer from among the others and accepting Horn as a clone of Typhon (which\nresolves other things) is only way I know of to get Horn into Silk (without\nferal speculation).\n\nResolving Wolfean puzzles often requires picking from multiple, viable\nsolutions. To do that, I prefer to look at all the open problems as\na whole and see which arrangement of solutions ties up the most\nopen puzzles I have without refuting a bunch of other solutions." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I also want to note that this whole thing is a rationalization of the\nIncarnation, not the Trinity.\nThe three Persons of the Trinity all share a single essence (in orthodox\nChristianity, that is),\nwhereas Jesus Christ possessed two essences in a single Person." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Technically, I suppose you're right. But I think a Father, Son, and Holy\nSpirit, three-in-one analogy was what Wolfe was going for.\n\nJ.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C2642F.4070406@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-03-19T15:26:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0903190819s657062cdp91e9aa503c880288@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Two cents:\n\nStags are such a standard mythical sign of the otherworldly or godly, whether of Annwn or Olympus, that they are almost a cliche. So just the fact that Horn sights and chases a \"buck\" is telling. Especially when it's a white one---but that's cheesy, and this one is an alien green. \n\nUsually it is a boar (the other classic royal quarry) that kills the king (via a wound in the thigh, of course), but that's a detail. For all I know greenbucks have huge tusks. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 2\nDate: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 09:29:42 -0500\nFrom: \"James Wynn\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Babbie\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: <35BFFEB921144B5F84880311EB50E24D at eMachinePC>\nContent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=\"iso-8859-1\";\n\treply-type=response" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Witz: I really think your theory is interesting, but I think it needs the \njustification for the Neighbor being a greenbuck." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n\nThere are casual hints about this on the level of the one Stuart Hamm \noffered, but I don't think it ever gets any clearer than OBW (HB) pg 272\n\"'My name is Horn.' I offered him my hand.\nHe took it, and this time I felt his hand and **remembered hard**, and \nseemed to\nbe covered with short, stiff hairs. Beyond that I will not say. \" (emphasis \nmine)\n\nWhat he remembers here is being a greenbuck. It doesn't sound like a human \nor a tree or a spider. Also, the Raja states that he feels personally \nresponsible for Horn's death, and the greenbuck is simply the only candidate \naround when Horn dies:" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C264F3.9030007@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-03-19T15:29:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "<49C2642F.4070406@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I recall that now. I found Wizard Knight bewildering on 1 read, frankly. It had my head spinning." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 9\nDate: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 11:11:47 -0400\nFrom: John Watkins \nSubject: Re: (urth) Babbie\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID:\n\t<93d4039f0903190811m4fcf9806w2ad42d35f53acf66 at mail.gmail.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nOn Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 10:43 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I forget the name of the character, but I recall that the farthest-down\n\"deity\" is pretty clearly identified with the farthest-up." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n\n\nThe Most Low God does claim to be the Most High God. But he's lying--the\ntext is fairly clear (given that it's Wolfe) on the point." } ] }, { "message_id": "<7AF9049A59CF4E369B395EA2BC8FCAE9@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T15:47:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0903190819s657062cdp91e9aa503c880288@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Or Horn's soul--the actual soul of the honest-to-goodness\nHorn goes into Babbie, who has two horns already, making three." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "An even simpler explanation that doesn't contradict Raja/Horn/greenbuck is \nto say that Babbie was becoming Horn via an innate psychic ability to merge \nhis personality to a human being. That seems to be going on. But I just \ndidn't think that was the pay-off I was expecting in the prophecy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I also tend to think, though, that Silk is a powered-up clone of\nTyphon rather than Typhon's biological son with \"Kypris\" or a clone of that \nson." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's lots of narrative and thematic reasons to like that. I certainly \ndid. The Mommy references are between Silk and Kyris are sooo compelling to \nme, though. This is not an impediment in itself. It is just like Typhon to \nhave the original Kypris implanted with a clone of himself.\n\nHowever, my acceptance of Silk=Typhon explanation died by a thousand pin \npricks. One of those was this: How does this get me to Horn riding a beast \nwith three horns? Okay, Silk is Typhon. So who is Horn. Not Typhon. Could \nHorn be possessed by Pas? That makes Silk and Horn the same, but it seems to \nme it ends up making Horn ride a beast with three Typhons instead of Horns. \nYou probably think I've done something similar to this already. I can't \nemphatically refute that. But this is just a Bridge Too Far.\n\nHave you seen \"The Lost Room\"? I often identify myself with all those crazy \nobject seekers with their Object Diagrams.\n\nJ " } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0903190911wd57a32ey99bb3bbd1ae7be7a@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T16:11:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "<7AF9049A59CF4E369B395EA2BC8FCAE9@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 11:47 AM, James Wynn wrote:\n Or Horn's soul--the actual soul of the honest-to-goodness\nHorn goes into Babbie, who has two horns already, making three." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "An even simpler explanation that doesn't contradict Raja/Horn/greenbuck is\nto say that Babbie was becoming Horn via an innate psychic ability to merge\nhis personality to a human being. That seems to be going on. But I just\ndidn't think that was the pay-off I was expecting in the prophecy.\n\nI also tend to think, though, that Silk is a powered-up clone of\nTyphon rather than Typhon's biological son with \"Kypris\" or a clone of\nthat son." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There's lots of narrative and thematic reasons to like that. I certainly\ndid. The Mommy references are between Silk and Kyris are sooo compelling to\nme, though. This is not an impediment in itself. It is just like Typhon to\nhave the original Kypris implanted with a clone of himself." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought that was a Freudian headfake...Silk associates romance and his\nmother, so to some extent his interpretation of Kypris's romantic interest\nin him (as her reincarnated lover) is, in Silk's mind, maternal (well, also\nhe can't wrap his head around the idea of a goddess being interested in\nhim.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "However, my acceptance of Silk=Typhon explanation died by a thousand pin\npricks. One of those was this: How does this get me to Horn riding a beast\nwith three horns? Okay, Silk is Typhon. So who is Horn. Not Typhon. Could\nHorn be possessed by Pas? That makes Silk and Horn the same, but it seems to\nme it ends up making Horn ride a beast with three Typhons instead of Horns.\nYou probably think I've done something similar to this already. I can't\nemphatically refute that. But this is just a Bridge Too Far." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, I don't know. Could Horn just be Horn? Why would his parents have\nbought a special embryo? I dunno." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Have you seen \"The Lost Room\"? I often identify myself with all those crazy\nobject seekers with their Object Diagrams." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes--I loved it until the end." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "J\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-19T16:13:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0903190911wd57a32ey99bb3bbd1ae7be7a@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I wonder if Three Horns should be taken literally.\nLiteral reading leads us to Babbie as the resolution.\nNot sure what to call Wynn's reading, but that leads us away from Babbie, into the idea that the Horns are just a stand in for Souls or Psyches, which is an idea that has some resonance to me.\nCould we also read \"Horns\" as \"Whorls\" I just thought of this now. He's certainly rode three whorls. Horn, as a sort of hybrid, becomes a beast (especially if he's a Neighbor) who has a soul from Blue(Neighbor), a soul from The Whorl Starcrosser (Silk) and a soul from the Red Sun Whorl (Typhon/Pas) Something like that. I'm not trying to stand behind this idea, just throwing it out there as I think it.\n\nalso:\nThe seeming death in the pit is problematic. But isn't it just as feasible to think that it took those three days for the Neighbors to heal Horn? I mean, Babbie and Seawrack's assumption that he was dead isn't much to go on. Seawrack is naive, and what the hell does Babbie know? She doesn't say,\"It looked like you were broken.\" I imagine this naive humanoid and this animal sitting at the pit, unable/unwilling to climb down, watching Horn not move for several hours, and made an assumption.\n\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: James Wynn [mailto:crushtv at gmail.com]\nSent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 08:47 AM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) Babbie" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Or Horn's soul--the actual soul of the honest-to-goodness\nHorn goes into Babbie, who has two horns already, making three." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "An even simpler explanation that doesn't contradict Raja/Horn/greenbuck is \nto say that Babbie was becoming Horn via an innate psychic ability to merge \nhis personality to a human being. That seems to be going on. But I just \ndidn't think that was the pay-off I was expecting in the prophecy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I also tend to think, though, that Silk is a powered-up clone of\nTyphon rather than Typhon's biological son with \"Kypris\" or a clone of that \nson." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There's lots of narrative and thematic reasons to like that. I certainly \ndid. The Mommy references are between Silk and Kyris are sooo compelling to \nme, though. This is not an impediment in itself. It is just like Typhon to \nhave the original Kypris implanted with a clone of himself.\n\nHowever, my acceptance of Silk=Typhon explanation died by a thousand pin \npricks. One of those was this: How does this get me to Horn riding a beast \nwith three horns? Okay, Silk is Typhon. So who is Horn. Not Typhon. Could \nHorn be possessed by Pas? That makes Silk and Horn the same, but it seems to \nme it ends up making Horn ride a beast with three Typhons instead of Horns. \nYou probably think I've done something similar to this already. I can't \nemphatically refute that. But this is just a Bridge Too Far.\n\nHave you seen \"The Lost Room\"? I often identify myself with all those crazy \nobject seekers with their Object Diagrams.\n\nJ \n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-19T16:17:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: John Watkins [mailto:john.watkins04 at gmail.com]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I thought that was a Freudian headfake" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Headfuck? never heard of headfake. are you just being polite?\ngo ahead an swear, we're all adults here." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yeah, I don't know. Could Horn just be Horn? Why would his parents have\nbought a special embryo? I dunno." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm with you on that. I don't buy Horns origin as anything other than standard issue. Of course, by the end Horn is not just Horn, but you don't need me to point that out I guess." } ] }, { "message_id": "<273409710903190926n9b4d992l8522424c0cab920@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T16:26:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You non sports person, you. No no, a Headfake is from basketball, when one\nuses one's head to broadcast a move in one direction, then moves one's body\nin another direction in order to misdirect." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 9:17 AM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: John Watkins [mailto:john.watkins04 at gmail.com]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I thought that was a Freudian headfake" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Headfuck? never heard of headfake. are you just being polite?\ngo ahead an swear, we're all adults here." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yeah, I don't know. Could Horn just be Horn? Why would his parents have\nbought a special embryo? I dunno." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm with you on that. I don't buy Horns origin as anything other than\nstandard issue. Of course, by the end Horn is not just Horn, but you don't\nneed me to point that out I guess.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-19T17:01:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "<273409710903190926n9b4d992l8522424c0cab920@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Jordon Flato [mailto:jordonflato at gmail.com]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You non sports person, you. No no, a Headfake is from basketball, when one\nuses one's head to broadcast a move in one direction, then moves one's body\nin another direction in order to misdirect." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ha. yeah, me don'tknows from the basketballz.\nbut, he was framing with Freud, not pigskin. \n\nwait, basketballs aren't pigskin, are they?\n\ndang.\n~quitz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 9:17 AM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: John Watkins [mailto:john.watkins04 at gmail.com]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I thought that was a Freudian headfake" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Headfuck? never heard of headfake. are you just being polite?\ngo ahead an swear, we're all adults here." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Yeah, I don't know. Could Horn just be Horn? Why would his parents have\nbought a special embryo? I dunno." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm with you on that. I don't buy Horns origin as anything other than\nstandard issue. Of course, by the end Horn is not just Horn, but you don't\nneed me to point that out I guess.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C2802F.9020104@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-03-19T17:26:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James\n\nI see from the Wiki for Aristaeus that you are way ahead of me: \n\n\"When he was grown, he sailed from Libya to Boeotia , where he was inducted into further mysteries in the cave of Chiron the centaur. In Boeotia, he was married to Autonoe and became the father of the ill-fated Actaeon , who inherited the family passion for hunting, to his ruin, and of Macris , who nursed the child Dionysus .\"\n\nSo Horn is Actaeon, who was turned to a stag by Artemis/Diana and whose own hounds tore him apart. I assume Aristaeus is Silk-like because he set an island town straight (executed murderers, brought cool winds) and introduced a proper Zeus cult. Pretty broad, of course: a gunslinger who kills the thugs terrorizing a town would also be Aristaeus, if he gets the townspeople to go to church more afterward. But I guess that's the point.\n\nCan you point me to a source that is more suggestive?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 2\nDate: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 09:29:42 -0500\nFrom: \"James Wynn\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Babbie\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: <35BFFEB921144B5F84880311EB50E24D at eMachinePC>\nContent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=\"iso-8859-1\";\n\treply-type=response\n\n\n\nThanks. I admit I've let it go dormant as I've toiled on a more expansive \nproject that simply did not fit into a short essay. For example, when I say \nthat the Long Sun narrative overlays the myth of Aristaeus, it is not easy \nto offer a short explanation for why he did that. One day...one day...\n\nJ \n\n\n\n------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<137FC737-C3AC-476C-A712-37384CC8BF64@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T17:31:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "<35BFFEB921144B5F84880311EB50E24D@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Mar 19, 2009, at 9:29 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nWitz: I really think your theory is interesting, but I think it \nneeds the justification for the Neighbor being a greenbuck." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There are casual hints about this on the level of the one Stuart \nHamm offered, but I don't think it ever gets any clearer than OBW \n(HB) pg 272\n\"'My name is Horn.' I offered him my hand.\nHe took it, and this time I felt his hand and **remembered hard**, \nand seemed to\nbe covered with short, stiff hairs. Beyond that I will not say. \n\" (emphasis mine)\n\nWhat he remembers here is being a greenbuck. It doesn't sound like a \nhuman or a tree or a spider." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought it DID sound like a spider.\n\nUgh. Spiders. Ugh.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9ADF6D86-E60C-4B9B-A6AA-64DEF4C1ECE4@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T17:47:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 19, 2009, at 11:13 AM, Son of Witz wrote:\nThe seeming death in the pit is problematic. But isn't it just as \nfeasible to think that it took those three days for the Neighbors to \nheal Horn? I mean, Babbie and Seawrack's assumption that he was \ndead isn't much to go on. Seawrack is naive, and what the hell does \nBabbie know? She doesn't say,\"It looked like you were broken.\" I \nimagine this naive humanoid and this animal sitting at the pit, \nunable/unwilling to climb down, watching Horn not move for several \nhours, and made an assumption." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can't think of anyone else who was dead for three days and then \nwasn't.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6CBA5265DE654A059AC4FADF506D1AC6@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T17:51:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yeah, I don't know. Could Horn just be Horn? Why would his parents have\nbought a special embryo? I dunno." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm with you on that. I don't buy Horns origin as anything other than\nstandard issue. Of course, by the end Horn is not just Horn, but\nyou don't need me to point that out I guess." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That route actually works a little if you use the Short Sun = Sol. But I've \nseen Marc take such awful thrashings trying to justify the presence of the \nNeighbors and inhumi on Urth. It's such an intractable obstacle that I'd \nprobably want to try a lot of other options before going there.\nHorn as Typhon works so nicely at textual and certain thematic levels. But \nI'm not prepared at this time to defend it as emphatically as I am that the \nRaja was the greenbuck, and Incus is a woman, yet many (most?) people don't \nfind those things convincing either. So, there ya go. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0903191054n49382f56p572d034b1e2a92a3@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T17:54:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "<6CBA5265DE654A059AC4FADF506D1AC6@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ok, why is Incus a woman rather than, as he seems, a gay man?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 1:51 PM, James Wynn wrote:\n\n Yeah, I don't know. Could Horn just be Horn? Why would his parents have\nbought a special embryo? I dunno." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm with you on that. I don't buy Horns origin as anything other than\nstandard issue. Of course, by the end Horn is not just Horn, but\nyou don't need me to point that out I guess." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That route actually works a little if you use the Short Sun = Sol. But I've\nseen Marc take such awful thrashings trying to justify the presence of the\nNeighbors and inhumi on Urth. It's such an intractable obstacle that I'd\nprobably want to try a lot of other options before going there.\nHorn as Typhon works so nicely at textual and certain thematic levels. But\nI'm not prepared at this time to defend it as emphatically as I am that the\nRaja was the greenbuck, and Incus is a woman, yet many (most?) people don't\nfind those things convincing either. So, there ya go.\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris P", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T18:09:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Witz: You're NOT including Pas in your Trinity right? just Horn/ \nSilk/Neighbor. Not Horn/Silk/Neighbor/Pas." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Chis P: At least the way I read it, Pas did not have a soul as such. He \nwas a... pattern, or a psyche (in the terminology I remember us using in \nthat particular conversation) at best. Typhon's soul stayed with Typhon. \nEven that psyche was not exactly Typhon, because it had either changed \non its own or been edited to fit its new role on the ship (not to \nmention the things that happened to it afterward)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Witz: I hear you. But wouldn't that mean that Divine Silk was a pattern and \nnot a soul or psyche?\nI've understood that it was Divine Silk that got into Pig and thus \nHorn/Silk.\nUnless of course, Divine Silk doesn't really factor in at all, and \nsomehow Silk's soul got into Pig by some other means." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "JW: The question of whether Wolfe views souls as physical/wave or metaphysical \nentities is still an issue of debate. He treats them as both. But think of \nAbel's discussion with Mani the cat about whether he is a cat or an \nelemental spirit. Abel says he is neither. For as long as they are together, \nhe's a new entity made up of both.\n\nThere are only three people in the Raja...and only three souls. When the \nRaja takes on Silk's body and his mind, he takes on both Silk and any daemon \nriding along when he died --which would not be Silk or Pas but the Silk-Pas. \nThis is further complicated by the fact that Pas is no longer the original \nPas either. They had to add a little bit of Silk to complete him (so Pas has \nSilk's head now). Consequently, Pas himself is also Silk-Pas, so what's the \ndifference? (And Typhon, when Sev met him --and apparently when he was \nscanned-- also consisted of two souls, right? Hmmmm...The head that was \nchanged in Pas was the tyrant's, not Pieton's, right?. How much of the old \nUrth's calde even exists in Pas anymore? )\n\nSo, only three souls and only three Horns. But the three are not necessarily \nthe same three. If you are familiar with the way Wolfe weaves mythology into \nhis stories and characters, then you know he's quite comfortable with this \nsort of double and triple -iteration." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Part of this discussion started with some reflections on identity. I mentioned that there is a \"simple\" view where each self is a \"soul\", thought of as a (perhaps eternal) substance that undergoes various changes; it is a single, indivisible unit. There is also a \"complex\" view in which we think of the self as comprised as various components - your memories, your traits, your vital interests, etc. On this view I am only partially still the same person I was when I was in love with my college sweetheart: one is prone to say things like \"I was a different person then.\" And if I think of myself as (mostly) a different person now than then, there are obviously varying degrees along the way. This is not as marginal or purely literary way of talking as it seems - it's part of why we have a statute of limitations, and why we are inclined to not hold an elderly adult responsible for things they did when they were a child. We referred in that discussion, roughly, to the collection of little pieces that make up such an identity as a \"psyche\".\n\nMost of us waver back and forth between different ways of talking about personal identity without noticing it. Different situations make each seem much more relevant and true than the other. What makes James's (and possibly Wolfe's) theory a little hard to work with and keep a grip on is that it forces us to actually hold both views at once. That doesn't make it wrong, just that there are going to constantly be points of the text where you want to look at it either one way or the other but not both. So I have never been able to go much further with this theory, as good of a theory as I think it is.\n\nMy gut inclination, as an aside though, has always been that there is a point at which Horn has definitely left the combined entity (both psyche and soul, whichever way you want to look at it; though if you think of it as the psyche you could say that there are some remnants)." } ] }, { "message_id": "<450697.8967.qm@web32403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T18:10:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Doggerel\nwww.don-doggett.blogspot.com\n\n\n--- On Thu, 3/19/09, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\n Pretty broad, of course: a" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "gunslinger who kills the thugs terrorizing a town would also\nbe Aristaeus, if he gets the townspeople to go to church\nmore afterward. But I guess that's the point." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Whoah. Pale Rider, anyone? \n\nDon\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<39ed084f0903191114p19ddf844u201aeefeacfd9dc8@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Groves", "address": "matthewalangroves at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T18:14:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "<137FC737-C3AC-476C-A712-37384CC8BF64@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " On Mar 19, 2009, at 9:29 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nWitz: I really think your theory is interesting, but I think it needs the\njustification for the Neighbor being a greenbuck." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There are casual hints about this on the level of the one Stuart Hamm\noffered, but I don't think it ever gets any clearer than OBW (HB) pg 272\n\"'My name is Horn.' I offered him my hand.\nHe took it, and this time I felt his hand and **remembered hard**, and\nseemed to\nbe covered with short, stiff hairs. Beyond that I will not say. \"\n(emphasis mine)\n\nWhat he remembers here is being a greenbuck. It doesn't sound like a human\nor a tree or a spider." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It does actually sound insectoid. Do we have anywhere a description\nof greenbuck hair? What about Babbie's hair?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0903191116r6e7345c0ke3d3428b6c7bbb09@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T18:16:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "<450697.8967.qm@web32403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Like *The Sixth Sense* for smart people." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 2:10 PM, don doggett wrote:\n\n\nDoggerel\nwww.don-doggett.blogspot.com\n\n\n--- On Thu, 3/19/09, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\n Pretty broad, of course: a\ngunslinger who kills the thugs terrorizing a town would also\nbe Aristaeus, if he gets the townspeople to go to church\nmore afterward. But I guess that's the point.\n\nWhoah. Pale Rider, anyone?\n\nDon\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C28DBC.3010906@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-03-19T18:23:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0903191116r6e7345c0ke3d3428b6c7bbb09@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm stumped too. Why does Wolfe keep doing this to us?\n\nAfter reading and discussing all this, I can't help but envision Ossipago, Barbatus, and Famulimus rolling away the stone while Master Malrubius and Triskele look on and the crypt fills with light.\n\nWitz, paint us a picture!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 3\nDate: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 12:47:17 -0500\nFrom: Adam Thornton \nSubject: Re: (urth) Babbie\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: <9ADF6D86-E60C-4B9B-A6AA-64DEF4C1ECE4 at io.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"us-ascii\"; Format=\"flowed\";\n\tDelSp=\"yes\"\n\n\nOn Mar 19, 2009, at 11:13 AM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The seeming death in the pit is problematic. But isn't it just as \nfeasible to think that it took those three days for the Neighbors to \nheal Horn? I mean, Babbie and Seawrack's assumption that he was \ndead isn't much to go on. Seawrack is naive, and what the hell does \nBabbie know? She doesn't say,\"It looked like you were broken.\" I \nimagine this naive humanoid and this animal sitting at the pit, \nunable/unwilling to climb down, watching Horn not move for several \nhours, and made an assumption." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n\nI can't think of anyone else who was dead for three days and then \nwasn't.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T18:30:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "<49C2802F.9020104@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: I see from the Wiki for Aristaeus that you are way ahead \nof me: \"When he was grown, he sailed from Libya to Boeotia, where he was \ninducted into further mysteries in the cave of Chiron the centaur. In \nBoeotia, he was married to Autonoe and became the father of the ill-fated \nActaeon, who inherited the family passion for hunting, to his ruin, and of \nMacris, who nursed the child Dionysus.\"\n\nSo Horn is Actaeon, who was turned to a stag by Artemis/Diana and whose \nown hounds tore him apart. I assume Aristaeus is Silk-like because he set \nan island town straight (executed murderers, brought cool winds) and \nintroduced a proper Zeus cult. Pretty broad, of course: a gunslinger who \nkills the thugs terrorizing a town would also be Aristaeus, if he gets the \ntownspeople to go to church more afterward. But I guess that's the point.\n\nCan you point me to a source that is more suggestive?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was not aware of the connection between Horn and Actaeon. I wrote my essay \non Aristaeus before I'd read tBotSS. That's really interesting.\nThe essay is here: http://www.urth.org/whorlmap/aristaeus.htm\nThe version that Wolfe used to plot the novel is Robert Graves's from \"The \nGreek Myths\". I presume you've read my essay on this already, but if you \nhaven't, I map Grave's rendition to Wolfe's novel from beginning to end. I \nrealize the perils in declaring any decent novel to be an \"allegory\" but I \nfound it uncanny the way Wolfe managed to link every element in Graves' \nnarrative to his own story. Incidentally, in this overlay Tussah is Apollo, \nQuetzal is Dionysus, and Pas is Zeus. The Myrtle nymphs? Look up myrtle in \nthe index and check out the references--they are illuminating.\n\nAnother less important Aristaeus reference is Herodotus's \"History of the \nPersian War\" (also useful when reading 'Soldier of the Mist'). Herodotus \nrelates how Aristaeus appeared in Italy several centuries after his \ndisappearance (he was supposed to be murdered, then the body disappeared). \nHe told the people that he had been serving as Apollo's raven.\nSpeaking of 'Soldier of the Mist', the poet Pindar (Latro's friend) wrote \nsome paens to Aristaeus.\n\n\"The Greek Myths\" is an excellent resource. Regarding Graves's theories in \n'The White Goddess', Wolfe has ascribed them as crazy, and I'd be surprised \nif he thought otherwise. But he has recommended TGM and of course the \nconnection between Severian and Claudius in \"I, Claudius\" is \nwell-documented. Grave's commentary (in the numbered annotations) is \ncertainly less than trustworthy, but he often does a very nice job of \nconnecting-the-dots even if he often fails to properly distinguish the \npicture when he's done. It seems to me that Wolfe seems to appreciate his \nconnecting ability at least.\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<9565620A6C894761A41B5A7EEBA6A9AF@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T18:33:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0903191054n49382f56p572d034b1e2a92a3@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ok, why is Incus a woman rather than, as he seems, a gay man?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'll put that together tomorrow evening. \n\nJ" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0903191139y67f08abavcda3991c81cfd6e0@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T18:39:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "<9565620A6C894761A41B5A7EEBA6A9AF@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks, I appreciate it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 2:33 PM, James Wynn wrote:\n >Ok, why is Incus a woman rather than, as he seems, a gay man?\n\nI'll put that together tomorrow evening.\n\nJ\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-19T18:41:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0903191139y67f08abavcda3991c81cfd6e0@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: David Stockhoff [mailto:dstockhoff at verizon.net]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Witz, paint us a picture!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "ha.\nactually, I just finished a painting for SC3's next. I wasn't particularly thrilled on the subject matter, or the style (realistic 70's italian horror movie poster), and wanted to be doing some New Sun stuff, so I tried to fool myself by framing it as a new sun piece. It has an angelic blond and a wicked brunette. So I just pretended the blond was Dorcas and the Brunette was Agia.\n\nI've got to do a cover for this danish SoundtrackN'Roll band, SPEkTR (not the french black metal band) and they want a 70's 80's PKD style cover, so I'm gonna do my best to make a faux cover for Long Sun. the type of cover it definitely should NOT have, but the type it probably would have gotten if it was cheaply published in the 70's. \nSPEkTR is quite fun. perhaps SC3-lite, without the middle eastern stuff. http://www.myspace.com/spektrscope\nIf you check it out, I'd suggest skipping the top two \"Alt Version\" tracks, and go straight to Betonville and the others from \"B/W Vs. Technicolor\", which I did the packaging for. I've gotten a lot of mileage out of that album.\n\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C2946D.1060607@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-03-19T18:52:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have to comment that this schema easily allows for the copying of persona/whatever by machines in the first place. I don't believe that machines could copy souls. Machines are the opposite of souls and could never capture them, I'd think. And there would be the theological implications. (Again, haven't heard from the Pope on this but I imagine he'd be pretty ticked off.)\n\nElectromagnetic brainwave patterns, however, present no difficulty whatsoever. Scan'em in, scan'em out, put'em on a floppy. In fact, you'd have to work harder to convince me that any Wolfean characters actually have souls at all than that their psyches could not be replicated and merged." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 3\nDate: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 18:09:03 +0000\nFrom: Chris P \nSubject: Re: (urth) Babbie\nTo: \nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"windows-1252\"\n\n\n\nPart of this discussion started with some reflections on identity. I mentioned that there is a \"simple\" view where each self is a \"soul\", thought of as a (perhaps eternal) substance that undergoes various changes; it is a single, indivisible unit. There is also a \"complex\" view in which we think of the self as comprised as various components - your memories, your traits, your vital interests, etc. On this view I am only partially still the same person I was when I was in love with my college sweetheart: one is prone to say things like \"I was a different person then.\" And if I think of myself as (mostly) a different person now than then, there are obviously varying degrees along the way. This is not as marginal or purely literary way of talking as it seems - it's part of why we have a statute of limitations, and why we are inclined to not hold an elderly adult responsible for things they did when they were a child. We referred in that discussion, roughly, to the collection of \n little pieces that make up such an identity as a \"psyche\".\n\nMost of us waver back and forth between different ways of talking about personal identity without noticing it. Different situations make each seem much more relevant and true than the other. What makes James's (and possibly Wolfe's) theory a little hard to work with and keep a grip on is that it forces us to actually hold both views at once. That doesn't make it wrong, just that there are going to constantly be points of the text where you want to look at it either one way or the other but not both. So I have never been able to go much further with this theory, as good of a theory as I think it is.\n\nMy gut inclination, as an aside though, has always been that there is a point at which Horn has definitely left the combined entity (both psyche and soul, whichever way you want to look at it; though if you think of it as the psyche you could say that there are some remnants)." } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0903191158y4b2fdd8bx711bbb2d61ae715c@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T18:58:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "<49C2946D.1060607@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 2:52 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nI have to comment that this schema easily allows for the copying of\npersona/whatever by machines in the first place. I don't believe that\nmachines could copy souls. Machines are the opposite of souls and could\nnever capture them, I'd think. And there would be the theological\nimplications. (Again, haven't heard from the Pope on this but I imagine he'd\nbe pretty ticked off.)\n\nElectromagnetic brainwave patterns, however, present no difficulty\nwhatsoever. Scan'em in, scan'em out, put'em on a floppy. In fact, you'd have\nto work harder to convince me that any Wolfean characters actually have\nsouls at all than that their psyches could not be replicated and merged." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's basically all an Aristotelian or Thomistic soul is, though--a\npattern. In Thomistic philosophy, humans *have *souls, but they *are *the\nunity of the soul and the body. Think of the soul as the sum total of all\nof your memories up to the present + your will, and that's basically a\nThomistic soul. In theory, this could be copied--the copy would have an\nindependent will and independent consciousness, but it would have, for a\ninfintesimal moment, the same soul that you do.\n\nI can't say that this is Catholic orthodoxy, but it isn't heterodox either.\nIt's a permitted philosophical viewpoint that merely requires a few other\ntheological assumptions to salvage its orthodoxy, which someone like St.\nThomas happily would grant (i.e., the soul is miraculously sustained after\ndeath for the particular judgment.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 3\nDate: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 18:09:03 +0000\nFrom: Chris P \nSubject: Re: (urth) Babbie\nTo: \nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"windows-1252\"\n\n\n\nPart of this discussion started with some reflections on identity. I\nmentioned that there is a \"simple\" view where each self is a \"soul\", thought\nof as a (perhaps eternal) substance that undergoes various changes; it is a\nsingle, indivisible unit. There is also a \"complex\" view in which we think\nof the self as comprised as various components - your memories, your traits,\nyour vital interests, etc. On this view I am only partially still the same\nperson I was when I was in love with my college sweetheart: one is prone to\nsay things like \"I was a different person then.\" And if I think of myself as\n(mostly) a different person now than then, there are obviously varying\ndegrees along the way. This is not as marginal or purely literary way of\ntalking as it seems - it's part of why we have a statute of limitations, and\nwhy we are inclined to not hold an elderly adult responsible for things they\ndid when they were a child. We referred in that discussion, roughly, to the\ncollection of little pieces that make up such an identity as a \"psyche\".\n\nMost of us waver back and forth between different ways of talking about\npersonal identity without noticing it. Different situations make each seem\nmuch more relevant and true than the other. What makes James's (and possibly\nWolfe's) theory a little hard to work with and keep a grip on is that it\nforces us to actually hold both views at once. That doesn't make it wrong,\njust that there are going to constantly be points of the text where you want\nto look at it either one way or the other but not both. So I have never been\nable to go much further with this theory, as good of a theory as I think it\nis.\n\nMy gut inclination, as an aside though, has always been that there is a\npoint at which Horn has definitely left the combined entity (both psyche and\nsoul, whichever way you want to look at it; though if you think of it as the\npsyche you could say that there are some remnants).\n\n\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 090319-0, 03/19/2009\nTested on: 3/19/2009 2:52:30 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370903191159h66ea296eh9d2dfb66d953ed9c@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T18:59:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "<49C2946D.1060607@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David,\n\nI think you're on the right track. However, I don't suppose Wolfe is\nproposing any\nspecific answer to the question of what a soul is, let alone whether it can be\ncopied or not. Rather, I suggest that he's asking questions: \"What if\n_this_ were\npossible; then where would the soul be?\" and some of his novels are, among\nother things, attempts to explore those questions, though not necessarily to\n_answer_ them as such.\n\nThe best fiction raises questions but doesn't necessarily answer them." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0903191206w785a21baj9e28d231fdf5619@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T19:06:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370903191159h66ea296eh9d2dfb66d953ed9c@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I just remember another passage where Wolfe seems to explicitly endorse a\nThomistic theory of the soul...it's in Urth of the New Sun when Severian is\ntalking with the Hierodules about his various iterations. One of the\nsimplest ways of explaining it is to use the analogy of writing or music. A\nsong (\"Let it Be,\" for example) is neither a particular performance of the\nsong nor the music and lyrics in their abstract--the former is like a body\nand the latter is like a soul. Every time the soul (the music and lyrics)\nare instantiated in a performance, then the song exists, but it is always\nthe same song as long as it is the same music and lyrics.\n\nI believe a similar example is used to explain to Severian how he can be in\ntwo places at once, and how, if he and another Sev get too close together,\nthey'll blend into one guy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 2:59 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nDavid,\n\nI think you're on the right track. However, I don't suppose Wolfe is\nproposing any\nspecific answer to the question of what a soul is, let alone whether it can\nbe\ncopied or not. Rather, I suggest that he's asking questions: \"What if\n_this_ were\npossible; then where would the soul be?\" and some of his novels are, among\nother things, attempts to explore those questions, though not necessarily\nto\n_answer_ them as such.\n\nThe best fiction raises questions but doesn't necessarily answer them.\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C297F0.5030905@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-03-19T19:07:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0903191206w785a21baj9e28d231fdf5619@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, I have not read that, but thanks! \n\nThe correspondence of the Whorl gods to the Greek pantheon was always plain, but I never tried to map it. I will read this." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 13:30:24 -0500\nFrom: \"James Wynn\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Babbie\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=\"iso-8859-1\";\n\treply-type=response\n\n\n\n\nI was not aware of the connection between Horn and Actaeon. I wrote my essay \non Aristaeus before I'd read tBotSS. That's really interesting.\nThe essay is here: http://www.urth.org/whorlmap/aristaeus.htm\nThe version that Wolfe used to plot the novel is Robert Graves's from \"The \nGreek Myths\". I presume you've read my essay on this already, but if you \nhaven't, I map Grave's rendition to Wolfe's novel from beginning to end. I \nrealize the perils in declaring any decent novel to be an \"allegory\" but I \nfound it uncanny the way Wolfe managed to link every element in Graves' \nnarrative to his own story. Incidentally, in this overlay Tussah is Apollo, \nQuetzal is Dionysus, and Pas is Zeus. The Myrtle nymphs? Look up myrtle in \nthe index and check out the references--they are illuminating." } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C29EC7.9090708@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-03-19T19:36:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "<49C297F0.5030905@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure. I was only saying I had no trouble with the two-part model used to \nexplain the Horn-Silk complex. John seems to suggest that it's even less \nof a problem than that from a theological perspective (I myself am no \nexpert on souls), in which case 2 parts may not even be needed.\n\nPersonally, I'm not sure what Wolfe is getting at with all these \ntransmogrifications of souls. Perhaps it is a matter of emphasizing the \ndivine and eternal over the fleeting and mundane. And if we or someone \ncould control souls, it would be powerful \"magic\" indeed. (I have \nnoticed that Wolfe doesn't write about fireball-throwing wizards so \nmuch. Magic artillery doesn't lead one to question the nature of the \ndivine.)\n\n\n------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 \n11:59:32 -0700 From: \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" Subject: " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T19:41:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Souls", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0903191206w785a21baj9e28d231fdf5619@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This could get interesting again, so I'm moving this conversation to a new \nthread.\n\nJust because I'm that way, I'll mention that in The Book of the Short Sun, \nthe Raja gives a very detailed analogy to the soul and body as a person \nliving in a house. This version is founded on a metaphysical/particlist view \nof the soul. Rose-in-Marble also says that while she is now just those \nlittle \"gold doo-dads\" you see on cards, she still a \"real person\" because \nshe always was. This gives idea of a soul as something immutable even it is \ncopied into a mechanical construction (or arguably, into an inhumi). So the \ngods might be \"genuine\" souls even if they've had their memories and \npersonalities distorted for practical purposes in running the ship. Typhon \ndid this to the souls of the human cargo as well. He manipulated their \nmemories . Aren't their souls real? And where do you suppose the minds of \nthe chems came from? Don't you find it interesting that even a pair of chem \n*hands* easily absorbed Rose's memories and identity via proximity? Is \nRose-in-Marble any less real than Marble-in-Marble?\n\nConversation I'm responding to is below\n\n------------------------\n\nA conversation I had with Chris about souls and identity in Wolfe's fiction \nthat lead to my detailing of the identity of the Raja in The Book of the \nShort Sun:\nhttp://lists.urth.net/htdig.cgi/urth-urth.net/2004-December/004360.html\n\nWitz sez:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You're NOT including Pas in your Trinity right? just Horn/\nSilk/Neighbor. Not Horn/Silk/Neighbor/Pas." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Chis P:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At least the way I read it, Pas did not have a soul as such. He\nwas a... pattern, or a psyche (in the terminology I remember us using in\nthat particular conversation) at best. Typhon's soul stayed with Typhon.\nEven that psyche was not exactly Typhon, because it had either changed\non its own or been edited to fit its new role on the ship (not to\nmention the things that happened to it afterward)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Witz sez:\nI hear you. But wouldn't that mean that Divine Silk was a pattern and\nnot a soul or psyche?\nI've understood that it was Divine Silk that got into Pig and thus\nHorn/Silk.\nUnless of course, Divine Silk doesn't really factor in at all, and\nsomehow Silk's soul got into Pig by some other means." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn sez:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The question of whether Wolfe views souls as physical/wave or metaphysical\nentities is still an issue of debate. He treats them as both. But think of\nAbel's discussion with Mani the cat about whether he is a cat or an\nelemental spirit. Abel says he is neither. For as long as they are \ntogether,\nhe's a new entity made up of both.\nThere are only three people in the Raja...and only three souls. When the\nRaja takes on Silk's body and his mind, he takes on both Silk and any \ndaemon\nriding along when he died --which would not be Silk or Pas but the \nSilk-Pas.\nThis is further complicated by the fact that Pas is no longer the original\nPas either. They had to add a little bit of Silk to complete him (so Pas \nhas\nSilk's head now). Consequently, Pas himself is also Silk-Pas, so what's \nthe\ndifference? (And Typhon, when Sev met him --and apparently when he was\nscanned-- also consisted of two souls, right? Hmmmm...The head that was\nchanged in Pas was the tyrant's, not Pieton's, right?. How much of the old\nUrth's calde even exists in Pas anymore? )\nSo, only three souls and only three Horns. But the three are not \nnecessarily\nthe same three. If you are familiar with the way Wolfe weaves mythology \ninto\nhis stories and characters, then you know he's quite comfortable with this\nsort of double and triple -iteration." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Chris P sez:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Part of this discussion started with some reflections on identity.\nI mentioned that there is a \"simple\" view where each self is a \"soul\",\nthought of as a (perhaps eternal) substance that undergoes various changes;\nit is a single, indivisible unit. There is also a \"complex\" view in which \nwe think\nof the self as comprised as various components - your memories, your \ntraits,\nyour vital interests, etc. On this view I am only partially still the same \nperson\nI was when I was in love with my college sweetheart: one is prone to say \nthings\nlike \"I was a different person then.\" And if I think of myself as (mostly) \na different\nperson now than then, there are obviously varying degrees along the way. \nThis is\nnot as marginal or purely literary way of talking as it seems - it's part \nof why\nwe have a statute of limitations, and why we are inclined to not hold an \nelderly\nadult responsible for things they did when they were a child. We referred \nin that\ndiscussion, roughly, to the collection of little pieces that make up such \nan identity\nas a \"psyche\".\nMost of us waver back and forth between different ways of talking about \npersonal\nidentity without noticing it. Different situations make each seem much more\nrelevant and true than the other. What makes James's (and possibly Wolfe's) \ntheory\na little hard to work with and keep a grip on is that it forces us to \nactually hold both\nviews at once. That doesn't make it wrong, just that there are going to \nconstantly\nbe points of the text where you want to look at it either one way or the \nother\nbut not both. So I have never been able to go much further with this \ntheory,\nas good of a theory as I think it is.\nMy gut inclination, as an aside though, has always been that there is\na point at which Horn has definitely left the combined entity (both\npsyche and soul, whichever way you want to look at it; though if you\nthink of it as the psyche you could say that there are some remnants)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David Stackhoff sez:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have to comment that this schema easily allows for the copying of\npersona/whatever by machines in the first place. I don't believe that\nmachines could copy souls. Machines are the opposite of souls and\ncould never capture them, I'd think. And there would be the theological\nimplications. (Again, haven't heard from the Pope on this but I\nimagine he'd be pretty ticked off.)\nElectromagnetic brainwave patterns, however, present no difficulty\nwhatsoever. Scan'em in, scan'em out, put'em on a floppy. In fact,\nyou'd have to work harder to convince me that any Wolfean\ncharacters actually have souls at all than that their psyches\ncould not be replicated and merged." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "John Watkins sez:\nThat's basically all an Aristotelian or Thomistic soul is, though--a \npattern.\nIn Thomistic philosophy, humans have souls, but they are the unity of the\nsoul and the body. Think of the soul as the sum total of all of your \nmemories\nup to the present + your will, and that's basically a Thomistic soul.\nIn theory, this could be copied--the copy would have an independent will\nand independent consciousness, but it would have, for a infintesimal\nmoment, the same soul that you do.\nI can't say that this is Catholic orthodoxy, but it isn't heterodox either.\nIt's a permitted philosophical viewpoint that merely requires a few other\ntheological assumptions to salvage its orthodoxy, which someone like\nSt. Thomas happily would grant (i.e., the soul is miraculously sustained\nafter death for the particular judgment.)\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes sez:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think you're on the right track. However, I don't suppose Wolfe is\nproposing any specific answer to the question of what a soul is,\nlet alone whether it can be copied or not. Rather, I suggest that\nhe's asking questions: \"What if _this_ were possible; then where\nwould the soul be?\" and some of his novels are, among" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "other things, attempts to explore those questions, though not necessarily to\n_answer_ them as such.\n\nDavid Stockhoff sez:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I just remember another passage where Wolfe seems to explicitly endorse a\nThomistic theory of the soul...it's in Urth of the New Sun when Severian is \ntalking\nwith the Hierodules about his various iterations. One of the simplest ways \nof\nexplaining it is to use the analogy of writing or music. A song (\"Let it \nBe,\"\nfor example) is neither a particular performance of the song nor the music\nand lyrics in their abstract--the former is like a body and the latter is \nlike a soul.\nEvery time the soul (the music and lyrics) are instantiated in a \nperformance,\nthen the song exists, but it is always the same song as long as it is the\nsame music and lyrics." } ] }, { "message_id": "<273409710903191253h70b0a698md63bd2a23c2485fe@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T19:53:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "<001e01c9a8d2$bd49d1e0$2dd24a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Also, He-Pen-Sheep calls Horn neighbor man because of the ring seawrack\ngives horn:\n\n\"When I asked what a Neighbor-man was, he laughed and pointed to the ring\nSewrack had given me. \"You Neighbor Man.\"\n\nIt's the ring that lets He-Pens-Sheep to identify Horn as a neighborman, not\nany recognition of a Neighbor Soul in Horn.\n\nI'm not trying to shoot you down here James, I just don't see any evidence,\nespeically with what Roy brings above, that indicates that the Greenbuck was\na Neighbor at all. It doesn't track with me, or with the text, as far as I\ncan tell. The above corrected quote from Roy, which is correct and\ndifferent from how you quoted it, removes some of the ambiguity.\n\nAgain, doesn't destroy the theory, but two important points of it have at\nleast been called into question...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 1:38 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nJames Wynn quoted and wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Witz: I really think your theory is interesting, but I think it needs\nthe\njustification for the Neighbor being a greenbuck." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There are casual hints about this on the level of the one Stuart Hamm\noffered, but I don't think it ever gets any clearer than OBW (HB) pg 272\n\"'My name is Horn.' I offered him my hand.\nHe took it, and this time I felt his hand and **remembered hard**, and\nseemed to\nbe covered with short, stiff hairs. Beyond that I will not say. \"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(emphasis\nmine)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What he remembers here is being a greenbuck. It doesn't sound like a\nhuman\nor a tree or a spider. [snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I said I didn't want to get into this stuff again. I don't and I won't. But\n. . . when I read the above quote from OBW, p-272, then compare it with the\nwording in my copy, I come away with a different impression:\n-----------------------------\n \"My name is Horn.\" I offered him my hand.\n He took it, and this time I felt his hand and remembered it. It was\nhard, and seemed to be covered with short, stiff hairs. Beyond that I will\nnot say.\n-------------------------------\n\nWhat he remembers here is the feel of the Neighbor's hand, not himself\nbeing\na greenbuck. The reference to remembering the feel of the Neighbor's hand\n\"this time\"is to their having touched hands five pages earlier (p-267),\nwhen\nthe Neighbor had helped him stand up. He said that he didn't remember how\nthe Neighbor's hands had felt when he was helped up, but he did take notice\nwhen they shook hands.\n\nThis does not ruin your theory, per se, but it does cast more than a little\ndoubt on the notion that Silkhorn remembers being a greenbuck.\n\n-Roy\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C2A4D6.4040409@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-03-19T20:02:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "<273409710903191253h70b0a698md63bd2a23c2485fe@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For me, it's enough that Horn saw and gave chase to a greenbuck. When \nyou see a large white stag, the Old Folk are near---it's that \nsimple---and if you are smart, you will go home immediately. Of course, \nheroes are not smart in that way, and so they go plunging after a green \nstag, not realizing the Neighbors are close by. And so one was near when \nHorn died. Fuzzy, perhaps. But enough for me. \n------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 \n14:38:55 -0600 From: \"Roy C. Lackey\" Subject: Re: \n(urth) Babbie To: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: <001e01c9a8d2$bd49d1e0$2dd24a0c at rclackey> Content-Type: \ntext/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nI said I didn't want to get into this stuff again. I don't and I won't. But\n. . . when I read the above quote from OBW, p-272, then compare it with the\nwording in my copy, I come away with a different impression:\n-----------------------------\n \"My name is Horn.\" I offered him my hand.\n He took it, and this time I felt his hand and remembered it. It was\nhard, and seemed to be covered with short, stiff hairs. Beyond that I will\nnot say.\n-------------------------------\n\nWhat he remembers here is the feel of the Neighbor's hand, not himself being\na greenbuck. The reference to remembering the feel of the Neighbor's hand\n\"this time\"is to their having touched hands five pages earlier (p-267), when\nthe Neighbor had helped him stand up. He said that he didn't remember how\nthe Neighbor's hands had felt when he was helped up, but he did take notice\nwhen they shook hands.\n\nThis does not ruin your theory, per se, but it does cast more than a little\ndoubt on the notion that Silkhorn remembers being a greenbuck.\n\n-Roy\n\n\n\n------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<219235071-1237493479-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1923825756-@bxe1044.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>", "from": { "name": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net", "address": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2009-03-19T20:11:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "<9565620A6C894761A41B5A7EEBA6A9AF@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "THIS I can't wait to read...thanks so much for your illuminating posts John Wynn!\nSent from my BlackBerry? smartphone with SprintSpeed\n\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: \"James Wynn\" \n\nDate: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 13:33:03 \nTo: The Urth Mailing List\nSubject: Re: (urth) Babbie" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-19T20:28:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "<219235071-1237493479-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1923825756-@bxe1044.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've got to third this.\nmy text matches Roy's correction.\nit really notches the idea down.\nEven that a Stag can be a god (is that right) doesn't really jibe because teh neighbors are not gods.\n\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Jordon Flato [mailto:jordonflato at gmail.com]\nSent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 12:53 PM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) Babbie\n\nAlso, He-Pen-Sheep calls Horn neighbor man because of the ring seawrack\ngives horn:\n\n\"When I asked what a Neighbor-man was, he laughed and pointed to the ring\nSewrack had given me. \"You Neighbor Man.\"\n\nIt's the ring that lets He-Pens-Sheep to identify Horn as a neighborman, not\nany recognition of a Neighbor Soul in Horn.\n\nI'm not trying to shoot you down here James, I just don't see any evidence,\nespeically with what Roy brings above, that indicates that the Greenbuck was\na Neighbor at all. It doesn't track with me, or with the text, as far as I\ncan tell. The above corrected quote from Roy, which is correct and\ndifferent from how you quoted it, removes some of the ambiguity.\n\nAgain, doesn't destroy the theory, but two important points of it have at\nleast been called into question....\n\nOn Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 1:38 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn quoted and wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Witz: I really think your theory is interesting, but I think it needs\nthe\njustification for the Neighbor being a greenbuck." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "There are casual hints about this on the level of the one Stuart Hamm\noffered, but I don't think it ever gets any clearer than OBW (HB) pg 272\n\"'My name is Horn.' I offered him my hand.\nHe took it, and this time I felt his hand and **remembered hard**, and\nseemed to\nbe covered with short, stiff hairs. Beyond that I will not say. \"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "(emphasis\nmine)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "What he remembers here is being a greenbuck. It doesn't sound like a\nhuman\nor a tree or a spider. [snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I said I didn't want to get into this stuff again. I don't and I won't. But\n. . . when I read the above quote from OBW, p-272, then compare it with the\nwording in my copy, I come away with a different impression:\n-----------------------------\n \"My name is Horn.\" I offered him my hand.\n He took it, and this time I felt his hand and remembered it. It was\nhard, and seemed to be covered with short, stiff hairs. Beyond that I will\nnot say.\n-------------------------------\n\nWhat he remembers here is the feel of the Neighbor's hand, not himself\nbeing\na greenbuck. The reference to remembering the feel of the Neighbor's hand\n\"this time\"is to their having touched hands five pages earlier (p-267),\nwhen\nthe Neighbor had helped him stand up. He said that he didn't remember how\nthe Neighbor's hands had felt when he was helped up, but he did take notice\nwhen they shook hands.\n\nThis does not ruin your theory, per se, but it does cast more than a little\ndoubt on the notion that Silkhorn remembers being a greenbuck.\n\n-Roy\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris P", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T20:29:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Souls", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stackhoff sez:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I have to comment that this schema easily allows for the copying of\npersona/whatever by machines in the first place. I don't believe that\nmachines could copy souls. Machines are the opposite of souls and\ncould never capture them, I'd think. And there would be the theological\nimplications. (Again, haven't heard from the Pope on this but I\nimagine he'd be pretty ticked off.)\nElectromagnetic brainwave patterns, however, present no difficulty\nwhatsoever. Scan'em in, scan'em out, put'em on a floppy. In fact,\nyou'd have to work harder to convince me that any Wolfean\ncharacters actually have souls at all than that their psyches\ncould not be replicated and merged." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is basically why I made the comment I did about Pas. Though James is extremely to the point in bringing up Rose-in-Marble, who I think foreshadows this problem at least in part. (There is foreshadowing in other ways as well, from LS to SS; consider that we've said very little about the inhuma but they are an integral part of the story. And the passage in LS about imitation - be it a demon imitating god, an inhuma imitating a human, or... someone imitating Silk or Horn, is relevant). Your position on this is going to at least in part depend on what you think of the Rose-in-Marble situation, which makes for a nice thought problem in itself.\n\nRose says she's a person (and, indeed, the *same* person - again, an issue of identity: what makes for \"sameness\"?) but we have no unequivocal way to parse this out. The fact that she makes the statement doesn't necessarily mean anything, because a well-trained Eliza-bot could give you the same utterance. The problem is that while Rose-in-Marble may have the \"psyche\" or \"pattern\" of Rose, there was clearly no transfer of immortal \"soul\" (again, thinking of soul as a *substance* in the technical/logical sense of the word). My own interpretation of this episode is that Silk puts aside the presence or non-presence of the immortal soul as irrelevant to the situation, deciding that she was worthy of the same respect and consideration regardless of whether she truly was the \"same person\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Watkins sez:\nThat's basically all an Aristotelian or Thomistic soul is, though--a \npattern.\nIn Thomistic philosophy, humans have souls, but they are the unity of the\nsoul and the body. Think of the soul as the sum total of all of your \nmemories\nup to the present + your will, and that's basically a Thomistic soul.\nIn theory, this could be copied--the copy would have an independent will\nand independent consciousness, but it would have, for a infintesimal\nmoment, the same soul that you do.\nI can't say that this is Catholic orthodoxy, but it isn't heterodox either.\nIt's a permitted philosophical viewpoint that merely requires a few other\ntheological assumptions to salvage its orthodoxy, which someone like\nSt. Thomas happily would grant (i.e., the soul is miraculously sustained\nafter death for the particular judgment.)\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes sez:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think you're on the right track. However, I don't suppose Wolfe is\nproposing any specific answer to the question of what a soul is,\nlet alone whether it can be copied or not. Rather, I suggest that\nhe's asking questions: \"What if _this_ were possible; then where\nwould the soul be?\" and some of his novels are, among\nother things, attempts to explore those questions, though not necessarily to\n_answer_ them as such." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, this is part of the problem with using the word \"soul\"; there is an ambiguity in these ways of looking at how the word is used, which tends to lead to metaphysical questions like \"Well ok, what is the 'soul' *really*?\" The introduction of the two different words was to make a bit more explicit the possibility that we can be talking about two different things; this pushes the dispute a bit away from that metaphysical ground towards a question of \"OK, well, which of these (possibly distinct) things is what determines personal identity; which is 'really *me*'?\"\n\nNow, if you take the position that the two words (soul/psyche) don't actually refer to anything distinct but to a single underlying notion of \"soul\", then the question is immediately pushed back to \"What is the soul really like?\" and you seem forced to say that one of the two ways of looking at it must be wrong, after all. This is part of what gives me trouble with James's composite view... Because we can vacillate case by case in which notion seems to best fit our intuitive understanding of identity. But if we take a single case and attempt to claim that identity consists in both of them at the same time, then you once again seem to point back to that metaphysical question, and you have to reject soul-as-substance, psyche, or possibly both.\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<532961998-1237495103-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-424826349-@bxe1060.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>", "from": { "name": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net", "address": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2009-03-19T20:38:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Need I remind you the chapter is called \"The End\"????\nSent from my BlackBerry? smartphone with SprintSpeed\n\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: \"Son of Witz\" \n\nDate: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 20:28:02 \nTo: The Urth Mailing List\nSubject: Re: (urth) Babbie\n\n\nI've got to third this.\nmy text matches Roy's correction.\nit really notches the idea down.\nEven that a Stag can be a god (is that right) doesn't really jibe because teh neighbors are not gods.\n\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Jordon Flato [mailto:jordonflato at gmail.com]\nSent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 12:53 PM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) Babbie\n\nAlso, He-Pen-Sheep calls Horn neighbor man because of the ring seawrack\ngives horn:\n\n\"When I asked what a Neighbor-man was, he laughed and pointed to the ring\nSewrack had given me. \"You Neighbor Man.\"\n\nIt's the ring that lets He-Pens-Sheep to identify Horn as a neighborman, not\nany recognition of a Neighbor Soul in Horn.\n\nI'm not trying to shoot you down here James, I just don't see any evidence,\nespeically with what Roy brings above, that indicates that the Greenbuck was\na Neighbor at all. It doesn't track with me, or with the text, as far as I\ncan tell. The above corrected quote from Roy, which is correct and\ndifferent from how you quoted it, removes some of the ambiguity.\n\nAgain, doesn't destroy the theory, but two important points of it have at\nleast been called into question....\n\nOn Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 1:38 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn quoted and wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Witz: I really think your theory is interesting, but I think it needs\nthe\njustification for the Neighbor being a greenbuck." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "There are casual hints about this on the level of the one Stuart Hamm\noffered, but I don't think it ever gets any clearer than OBW (HB) pg 272\n\"'My name is Horn.' I offered him my hand.\nHe took it, and this time I felt his hand and **remembered hard**, and\nseemed to\nbe covered with short, stiff hairs. Beyond that I will not say. \"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "(emphasis\nmine)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "What he remembers here is being a greenbuck. It doesn't sound like a\nhuman\nor a tree or a spider. [snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I said I didn't want to get into this stuff again. I don't and I won't. But\n. . . when I read the above quote from OBW, p-272, then compare it with the\nwording in my copy, I come away with a different impression:\n-----------------------------\n \"My name is Horn.\" I offered him my hand.\n He took it, and this time I felt his hand and remembered it. It was\nhard, and seemed to be covered with short, stiff hairs. Beyond that I will\nnot say.\n-------------------------------\n\nWhat he remembers here is the feel of the Neighbor's hand, not himself\nbeing\na greenbuck. The reference to remembering the feel of the Neighbor's hand\n\"this time\"is to their having touched hands five pages earlier (p-267),\nwhen\nthe Neighbor had helped him stand up. He said that he didn't remember how\nthe Neighbor's hands had felt when he was helped up, but he did take notice\nwhen they shook hands.\n\nThis does not ruin your theory, per se, but it does cast more than a little\ndoubt on the notion that Silkhorn remembers being a greenbuck.\n\n-Roy\n\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "<001e01c9a8d2$bd49d1e0$2dd24a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2009-03-19T20:38:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "<35BFFEB921144B5F84880311EB50E24D@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn quoted and wrote:\nWitz: I really think your theory is interesting, but I think it needs the\njustification for the Neighbor being a greenbuck." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There are casual hints about this on the level of the one Stuart Hamm\noffered, but I don't think it ever gets any clearer than OBW (HB) pg 272\n\"'My name is Horn.' I offered him my hand.\nHe took it, and this time I felt his hand and **remembered hard**, and\nseemed to\nbe covered with short, stiff hairs. Beyond that I will not say. \"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "(emphasis" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "mine)\n\nWhat he remembers here is being a greenbuck. It doesn't sound like a human\nor a tree or a spider. [snip]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I said I didn't want to get into this stuff again. I don't and I won't. But\n. . . when I read the above quote from OBW, p-272, then compare it with the\nwording in my copy, I come away with a different impression:\n-----------------------------\n \"My name is Horn.\" I offered him my hand.\n He took it, and this time I felt his hand and remembered it. It was\nhard, and seemed to be covered with short, stiff hairs. Beyond that I will\nnot say.\n-------------------------------\n\nWhat he remembers here is the feel of the Neighbor's hand, not himself being\na greenbuck. The reference to remembering the feel of the Neighbor's hand\n\"this time\"is to their having touched hands five pages earlier (p-267), when\nthe Neighbor had helped him stand up. He said that he didn't remember how\nthe Neighbor's hands had felt when he was helped up, but he did take notice\nwhen they shook hands.\n\nThis does not ruin your theory, per se, but it does cast more than a little\ndoubt on the notion that Silkhorn remembers being a greenbuck.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C2B624.6060802@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-03-19T21:16:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "<001e01c9a8d2$bd49d1e0$2dd24a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure they are. That is, they are of Faerie, as much as they can be while still being aliens on an alien planet. They're green, aren't they? \n\nGods, fairies, same thing when it comes to the most ancient tales. It's about otherworldliness. Wolfe seems to see connections, not distinctions, when he writes in the fantastic or mythic mode." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 6\nDate: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 20:28:02 +0000\nFrom: \"Son of Witz\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Babbie\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nI've got to third this.\nmy text matches Roy's correction.\nit really notches the idea down.\nEven that a Stag can be a god (is that right) doesn't really jibe because teh neighbors are not gods.\n\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<273409710903191422s3e787dd8xf0424a020f62fff4@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T21:22:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "<49C2B624.6060802@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure where you fall on the 'hierodules' argument, but hopefully, you\nare not one to see them as \"insect beings\" who have no divinity or\nlegitimate connection with divinity. Otherwise, it seems like it would be\nhard to make the case for the Neighbors having that quality and not the\nHierodules...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 2:16 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nSure they are. That is, they are of Faerie, as much as they can be while\nstill being aliens on an alien planet. They're green, aren't they?\nGods, fairies, same thing when it comes to the most ancient tales. It's\nabout otherworldliness. Wolfe seems to see connections, not distinctions,\nwhen he writes in the fantastic or mythic mode.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 6\nDate: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 20:28:02 +0000\nFrom: \"Son of Witz\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Babbie\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nI've got to third this.\nmy text matches Roy's correction.\nit really notches the idea down.\nEven that a Stag can be a god (is that right) doesn't really jibe because\nteh neighbors are not gods.\n\n~witz\n\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 090319-0, 03/19/2009\nTested on: 3/19/2009 5:16:21 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-19T21:23:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "<273409710903191422s3e787dd8xf0424a020f62fff4@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "ok. I won't argue with that.\nI guess I just need more.\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: David Stockhoff [mailto:dstockhoff at verizon.net]\nSent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 02:16 PM\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Babbie\n\nSure they are. That is, they are of Faerie, as much as they can be while still being aliens on an alien planet. They're green, aren't they? \n\nGods, fairies, same thing when it comes to the most ancient tales. It's about otherworldliness. Wolfe seems to see connections, not distinctions, when he writes in the fantastic or mythic mode.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 6\nDate: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 20:28:02 +0000\nFrom: \"Son of Witz\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Babbie\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nI've got to third this.\nmy text matches Roy's correction.\nit really notches the idea down.\nEven that a Stag can be a god (is that right) doesn't really jibe because teh neighbors are not gods.\n\n~witz\n\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 090319-0, 03/19/2009\nTested on: 3/19/2009 5:16:21 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<01A1EE384E8847B6ADF0AA7941E3F6D4@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T21:38:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "<001e01c9a8d2$bd49d1e0$2dd24a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy: This does not ruin your theory, per se, but it does cast more than a \nlittle\ndoubt on the notion that Silkhorn remembers being a greenbuck." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wow! You miss four words and it really changes the meaning. I checked and \nyou're right. So I checked my old copy and, yep, it had a bad printing of \nthe end of that line. arrg! This re-arranges the furniture a bit. And a \nlittle chaos does not a convincing argument make.\nYou're right that this corrected text does mean that Horn does not \nexplicitly recall a past as a greenbuck. The most annoying thing is that I \nwill have to rewrite something that nicely put it all together in a bow. \nThose stiff hairs definitely recall a deer hide for me. And I'd say there's \nstill pretty solid evidence that the Raja is a Neighbor with Horn's and \nSilk's psyche. Yet, this is going to need buttressing, which I be able to do \nwith out a re-reading.\n\nJ\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C2BCC5.4080304@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-03-19T21:44:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Souls", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interestingly, \"soul\" often has been used the opposite of the way we use \"self.\" That is, as something you possess that is not you, and which you may have stolen from you.\n\nIf you consider George MacDonald's \"shadows\" and Lord Dunsany's shadows and souls, and some fairy tales as well (giant's hearts and so on), they tend to be nameless, faceless things. And this makes sense, because the concept well predates the era of Romanticism. You could consider it a \"spark,\" perhaps.\n\nThe \"self\" is much more to the point here, I think." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "----------------------------------------------------------------------\n\nMessage: 1\nDate: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 20:29:51 +0000\nFrom: Chris P \nSubject: Re: (urth) Souls\nTo: \nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"windows-1252\"\n\n\n\nWell, this is part of the problem with using the word \"soul\"; there is an ambiguity in these ways of looking at how the word is used, which tends to lead to metaphysical questions like \"Well ok, what is the 'soul' *really*?\" The introduction of the two different words was to make a bit more explicit the possibility that we can be talking about two different things; this pushes the dispute a bit away from that metaphysical ground towards a question of \"OK, well, which of these (possibly distinct) things is what determines personal identity; which is 'really *me*'?\"\n\nNow, if you take the position that the two words (soul/psyche) don't actually refer to anything distinct but to a single underlying notion of \"soul\", then the question is immediately pushed back to \"What is the soul really like?\" and you seem forced to say that one of the two ways of looking at it must be wrong, after all. This is part of what gives me trouble with James's composite view... Because we can vacillate case by case in which notion seems to best fit our intuitive understanding of identity. But if we take a single case and attempt to claim that identity consists in both of them at the same time, then you once again seem to point back to that metaphysical question, and you have to reject soul-as-substance, psyche, or possibly both." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-19T21:49:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "<01A1EE384E8847B6ADF0AA7941E3F6D4@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: James Wynn [mailto:crushtv at gmail.com]\nSent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 02:38 PM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) Babbie" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Roy: This does not ruin your theory, per se, but it does cast more than a \nlittle\ndoubt on the notion that Silkhorn remembers being a greenbuck." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wow! You miss four words and it really changes the meaning. I checked and \nyou're right. So I checked my old copy and, yep, it had a bad printing of \nthe end of that line. arrg! This re-arranges the furniture a bit. And a \nlittle chaos does not a convincing argument make.\nYou're right that this corrected text does mean that Horn does not \nexplicitly recall a past as a greenbuck. The most annoying thing is that I \nwill have to rewrite something that nicely put it all together in a bow. \nThose stiff hairs definitely recall a deer hide for me. And I'd say there's \nstill pretty solid evidence that the Raja is a Neighbor with Horn's and \nSilk's psyche. Yet, this is going to need buttressing, which I be able to do \nwith out a re-reading.\n\nJ" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Shot down, in a blaze of glory\"\n\n\n\nsorry man, just kidding.\nI'm just glad I'm not overly invested in any of my readings.\ndang, it's gotta hurt. What can you do when your text is printed wrong?\nit's like if I did a painting of the Amphisbaena based on the typo where he writes \"Hand\" instead of \"Head\". My serpent would be chomping it's hand.\n\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<542BFC20783A4AB1B6CEA9AD7C5835DE@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T22:03:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Neighbors as Faeries", "in_reply_to": "<49C2B624.6060802@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In \"An Evil Guest\" one of the characters says that the term \"banshee\", which \nmeans \"woman of the faerie mounds\" means that they are one of the \"gray \nneighbors\".\n\nIn folklore/mythology, chasing a white stag inevitably leads one to \nFaerieland, meaning the other world, the world of spirits, where one's \nancestors go. The most famous case was Pwyll in the Mabinogion, who become \nthe Head of the Annwn (that is, Faerieland). Incidentally Pwyll's name meant \n\"sense\" and his son Pryderi's name meant \"care\" or \"thought\". This is a \nnaming convention that I thought of when I was reading Long Sun.\n\nThere's another way to get to Faerieland too. You can enter a faerie circle. \nFor Horn, the faerie circle was a pit. Seawrack and Babbie were not \nmistaken. Horn was dead dead dead. He had gone on the Summer lands.\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris P", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T22:04:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Souls", "in_reply_to": "<49C2BCC5.4080304@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree, although I'd maintain that this is still exactly the same ambiguity - there are two common understandings of what makes up the 'self'. It is somewhat open as to what terms we use to denote which we're talking about.\n\nActually, if it is of interest to anyone, there is an article (which may be a bit technical, IIRC) by Derek Parfit that led me to ask my question of James in that particular way, and it is online. It isn't so much his primary argument - which is ethical in nature - that got me thinking this way, it is his way of laying it out (via the \"Simple\" and \"Complex\" views). I think it would likely be a step back to try to hammer the square peg of what he is saying entirely into this particular hole.\n\nhttp://individual.utoronto.ca/stafforini/parfit/parfit_-_personal_identity_and_rationality.pdf" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Interestingly, \"soul\" often has been used the opposite of the way we use \"self.\" That is, as something you possess that is not you, and which you may have stolen from you.\n\nIf you consider George MacDonald's \"shadows\" and Lord Dunsany's shadows and souls, and some fairy tales as well (giant's hearts and so on), they tend to be nameless, faceless things. And this makes sense, because the concept well predates the era of Romanticism. You could consider it a \"spark,\" perhaps.\n\nThe \"self\" is much more to the point here, I think.\n\n----------------------------------------------------------------------\n\nMessage: 1\nDate: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 20:29:51 +0000\nFrom: Chris P \nSubject: Re: (urth) Souls\nTo: \nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"windows-1252\"\n\n\n\nWell, this is part of the problem with using the word \"soul\"; there is an ambiguity in these ways of looking at how the word is used, which tends to lead to metaphysical questions like \"Well ok, what is the 'soul' *really*?\" The introduction of the two different words was to make a bit more explicit the possibility that we can be talking about two different things; this pushes the dispute a bit away from that metaphysical ground towards a question of \"OK, well, which of these (possibly distinct) things is what determines personal identity; which is 'really *me*'?\"\n\nNow, if you take the position that the two words (soul/psyche) don't actually refer to anything distinct but to a single underlying notion of \"soul\", then the question is immediately pushed back to \"What is the soul really like?\" and you seem forced to say that one of the two ways of looking at it must be wrong, after all. This is part of what gives me trouble with James's composite view... Because we can vacillate case by case in which notion seems to best fit our intuitive understanding of identity. But if we take a single case and attempt to claim that identity consists in both of them at the same time, then you once again seem to point back to that metaphysical question, and you have to reject soul-as-substance, psyche, or possibly both.\n\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 090319-0, 03/19/2009\nTested on: 3/19/2009 5:44:38 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<273409710903191509o33d78d3eq38638284ce953899@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T22:09:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Neighbors as Faeries", "in_reply_to": "<542BFC20783A4AB1B6CEA9AD7C5835DE@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I'll be looking for evidence of the Neighbor's personality manifesting\nin the book in this read through. There are plenty of instances of Silk\nmanifesting momentarily through Horn without his intention (which I don't\nsee how that has much resonance or meaning aside from a red herring if a\nneighbor is actually inhabiting Horn), but I can't think of many instances,\nsave your ambiguous quote at the end about killing their father, where the\npersonality doesn't seem to be Horn or Silk. I would expect, if you are\nright, there are other clues throughout. I don't see them. *yet* But it\ndoes give me something new to look for in this read through!\n\nI would agree that chasing the stag, falling in the Pit (which was in the\nmidst of a classic faerie circle of the ruins) represented a crossing over\nof sorts, but I don't think it necessitates Horns death. That is a turning\npoint in the narrative for a number of reasons, not the least of which is\nthat it brings Horn directly to the attention of the neighbors (without, I\nwould posit, necessitating a transfer of 'souls' into Horn).\n\nI grant it is possible, but I just don't see it yet." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 3:03 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nIn \"An Evil Guest\" one of the characters says that the term \"banshee\",\nwhich means \"woman of the faerie mounds\" means that they are one of the\n\"gray neighbors\".\n\nIn folklore/mythology, chasing a white stag inevitably leads one to\nFaerieland, meaning the other world, the world of spirits, where one's\nancestors go. The most famous case was Pwyll in the Mabinogion, who become\nthe Head of the Annwn (that is, Faerieland). Incidentally Pwyll's name meant\n\"sense\" and his son Pryderi's name meant \"care\" or \"thought\". This is a\nnaming convention that I thought of when I was reading Long Sun.\n\nThere's another way to get to Faerieland too. You can enter a faerie\ncircle. For Horn, the faerie circle was a pit. Seawrack and Babbie were not\nmistaken. Horn was dead dead dead. He had gone on the Summer lands.\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<273409710903191512r499b47bbyd5e0df8bb9d2694a@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T22:12:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Neighbors as Faeries", "in_reply_to": "<273409710903191509o33d78d3eq38638284ce953899@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And, why would a neighbor, finally admitting what he is, if only to himself,\nchoose to return to the Whorl, at the very end? Silk, yes, but a neighbor?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 3:09 PM, Jordon Flato wrote:\nWell, I'll be looking for evidence of the Neighbor's personality\nmanifesting in the book in this read through. There are plenty of instances\nof Silk manifesting momentarily through Horn without his intention (which I\ndon't see how that has much resonance or meaning aside from a red herring if\na neighbor is actually inhabiting Horn), but I can't think of many\ninstances, save your ambiguous quote at the end about killing their father,\nwhere the personality doesn't seem to be Horn or Silk. I would expect, if\nyou are right, there are other clues throughout. I don't see them. *yet*\nBut it does give me something new to look for in this read through!\n\nI would agree that chasing the stag, falling in the Pit (which was in the\nmidst of a classic faerie circle of the ruins) represented a crossing over\nof sorts, but I don't think it necessitates Horns death. That is a turning\npoint in the narrative for a number of reasons, not the least of which is\nthat it brings Horn directly to the attention of the neighbors (without, I\nwould posit, necessitating a transfer of 'souls' into Horn).\n\nI grant it is possible, but I just don't see it yet.\n\n\n\nOn Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 3:03 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In \"An Evil Guest\" one of the characters says that the term \"banshee\",\nwhich means \"woman of the faerie mounds\" means that they are one of the\n\"gray neighbors\".\n\nIn folklore/mythology, chasing a white stag inevitably leads one to\nFaerieland, meaning the other world, the world of spirits, where one's\nancestors go. The most famous case was Pwyll in the Mabinogion, who become\nthe Head of the Annwn (that is, Faerieland). Incidentally Pwyll's name meant\n\"sense\" and his son Pryderi's name meant \"care\" or \"thought\". This is a\nnaming convention that I thought of when I was reading Long Sun.\n\nThere's another way to get to Faerieland too. You can enter a faerie\ncircle. For Horn, the faerie circle was a pit. Seawrack and Babbie were not\nmistaken. Horn was dead dead dead. He had gone on the Summer lands.\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0903191521m5cad359cy4309d593feb8f8b0@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T22:21:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Neighbors as Faeries", "in_reply_to": "<273409710903191512r499b47bbyd5e0df8bb9d2694a@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think the sine qua non has got to be that it's really Silk talking to\nRemora at the big reveal, right? Either Silk was clinging to his body when\nNeighbor/Horn(?) got poured into it, or Silk reentered the body via Pig at\nsome point, but that's Silk in there at the end.\nNot necessarily \"only\" Silk, though." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 6:12 PM, Jordon Flato wrote:\nAnd, why would a neighbor, finally admitting what he is, if only to\nhimself, choose to return to the Whorl, at the very end? Silk, yes, but a\nneighbor?\n\n\nOn Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 3:09 PM, Jordon Flato wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, I'll be looking for evidence of the Neighbor's personality\nmanifesting in the book in this read through. There are plenty of instances\nof Silk manifesting momentarily through Horn without his intention (which I\ndon't see how that has much resonance or meaning aside from a red herring if\na neighbor is actually inhabiting Horn), but I can't think of many\ninstances, save your ambiguous quote at the end about killing their father,\nwhere the personality doesn't seem to be Horn or Silk. I would expect, if\nyou are right, there are other clues throughout. I don't see them. *yet*\nBut it does give me something new to look for in this read through!\n\nI would agree that chasing the stag, falling in the Pit (which was in the\nmidst of a classic faerie circle of the ruins) represented a crossing over\nof sorts, but I don't think it necessitates Horns death. That is a turning\npoint in the narrative for a number of reasons, not the least of which is\nthat it brings Horn directly to the attention of the neighbors (without, I\nwould posit, necessitating a transfer of 'souls' into Horn).\n\nI grant it is possible, but I just don't see it yet.\n\n\n\nOn Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 3:03 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "In \"An Evil Guest\" one of the characters says that the term \"banshee\",\nwhich means \"woman of the faerie mounds\" means that they are one of the\n\"gray neighbors\".\n\nIn folklore/mythology, chasing a white stag inevitably leads one to\nFaerieland, meaning the other world, the world of spirits, where one's\nancestors go. The most famous case was Pwyll in the Mabinogion, who become\nthe Head of the Annwn (that is, Faerieland). Incidentally Pwyll's name meant\n\"sense\" and his son Pryderi's name meant \"care\" or \"thought\". This is a\nnaming convention that I thought of when I was reading Long Sun.\n\nThere's another way to get to Faerieland too. You can enter a faerie\ncircle. For Horn, the faerie circle was a pit. Seawrack and Babbie were not\nmistaken. Horn was dead dead dead. He had gone on the Summer lands.\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<273409710903191528g71cc9845vff89c2d36ccd579c@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T22:28:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Neighbors as Faeries", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0903191521m5cad359cy4309d593feb8f8b0@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, I think so too. I just still am not finding resonance with the idea\nof Neighbor/Horn if that turns out to be true....\n\n\n\n\n\n....yet." } ] }, { "message_id": "<065DE572E0E64C5D8B3CD6A2EC28B084@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T22:37:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The End of RTTW", "in_reply_to": "<273409710903191512r499b47bbyd5e0df8bb9d2694a@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And, why would a neighbor, finally admitting what he is, if only to himself,\nchoose to return to the Whorl, at the very end? Silk, yes, but a neighbor?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, the Neighbors aren't hanging around Blue and Green, are they?\nThey've said they're moving on. It's humanity, now granted the deed to Blue that is leaving.\n\nThe ending is a mystery to me as well. I feel like I'm supposed to recognize Oreb's \"Good Fishing!\" comment as a reference. But I'll be danged if I do. Consider that Wolfe says the the first thing he plots is his ending. Sheesh.\n\nWhere are they all going? To find another planet to colonize, I suppose. But this is one of the more hurtful events for believing that the Short Sun is Sol. After returning to a depopulated Urth or Ushas. Why are they leaving again?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think the sine qua non has got to be that it's really \nSilk talking to Remora at the big reveal, right? \nEither Silk was clinging to his body when Neighbor/Horn(?)\ngot poured into it, or Silk reentered the body via Pig at\nsome point, but that's Silk in there at the end.\nNot necessarily \"only\" Silk, though." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Silk was always \"there\". That's his body. He's got a brain full of memories. His love for Hyacinth is still there, in that regard. I would guess that Horn's memories only exist anymore in the memory of the Neighbor. You seem to be thinking of the Raja as a Neighbor in human disguise. He's not. Like the Mani the cat, he's neither Neighbor nor Horn nor Silk. He's a new thing." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T22:39:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The End of RTTW", "in_reply_to": "<065DE572E0E64C5D8B3CD6A2EC28B084@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 19, 2009, at 5:37 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nThe ending is a mystery to me as well. I feel like I'm supposed to \nrecognize Oreb's \"Good Fishing!\" comment as a reference. But I'll be \ndanged if I do. Consider that Wolfe says the the first thing he \nplots is his ending. Sheesh." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Didn't Jesus say, I will make you a fisher of eyeballs.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2009-03-19T22:48:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, 19 Mar 2009, James Wynn wrote:\n\n\"The Greek Myths\" is an excellent resource. Regarding Graves's theories in \n'The White Goddess', Wolfe has ascribed them as crazy, and I'd be surprised \nif he thought otherwise." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Crazy but delicious, like, say, Van Vogt, though at a different level. \nAnd surely _Doors_ owes something to _Three Days in New Crete_?\n\nDavid Duffy." } ] }, { "message_id": "<273409710903191549sb99af60j53bf9d316e6f3f1b@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T22:49:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The End of RTTW", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have always assumed \"good fishing\" was a Jesus reference. Fisher of Men\nand all that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 3:39 PM, Adam Thornton wrote:\n\nOn Mar 19, 2009, at 5:37 PM, James Wynn wrote:\n\nThe ending is a mystery to me as well. I feel like I'm supposed to\nrecognize Oreb's \"Good Fishing!\" comment as a reference. But I'll be danged\nif I do. Consider that Wolfe says the the first thing he plots is his\nending. Sheesh.\n\n\nDidn't Jesus say, I will make you a fisher of eyeballs.\n\nAdam\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-19T22:50:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The End of RTTW", "in_reply_to": "<273409710903191549sb99af60j53bf9d316e6f3f1b@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: James Wynn [mailto:crushtv at gmail.com]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Where are they all going? To find another planet to colonize, I suppose. But this is one of the more hurtful events for believing that the Short Sun is Sol. After returning to a depopulated Urth or Ushas. Why are they leaving again?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe part of Typhon's plan was not only to go to new worlds, but to return to Urth after it's become Ushas. Maybe he knows about the test and the white fountain and such, since the black hole exists in his time. Just like he attempted to have himself on the other side of the star crossing, maybe he wanted to be on the other side of the NewSun Flooding.\nSo, after that's accomplished, more starcrossing.\n???? " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Silk was always \"there\". That's his body. He's got a brain full of memories. His love for Hyacinth is still there, in that regard. I would guess that Horn's memories only exist anymore in the memory of the Neighbor. You seem to be thinking of the Raja as a Neighbor in human disguise. He's not. Like the Mani the cat, he's neither Neighbor nor Horn nor Silk. He's a new thing." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Despite my reticence to accept the whole idea, I guess it is compelling in light of the \"I killed your father\" bit. I don't understand though why a Neighbor / Faerie would have any grief over killing Horn if that's a standard Faerie activity — crossing folks over after a stag chace.\n\nHas Silk's spirit just crowded Horn's out?\nIs Silk speaking metaphorically? It was the quest for Silk that killed Horn. perhaps he feels guilty for being both the object and the inspiration for the quest.\n\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0903191551y15278c42wb08833b2a17c58fd@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T22:51:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The End of RTTW", "in_reply_to": "<065DE572E0E64C5D8B3CD6A2EC28B084@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 6:37 PM, James Wynn wrote:\n >I think the sine qua non has got to be that it's really\nSilk talking to Remora at the big reveal, right?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Either Silk was clinging to his body when Neighbor/Horn(?)\ngot poured into it, or Silk reentered the body via Pig at\nsome point, but that's Silk in there at the end.\nNot necessarily \"only\" Silk, though." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Silk was always \"there\". That's his body. He's got a brain full of\nmemories. His love for Hyacinth is still there, in that regard. I would\nguess that Horn's memories only exist anymore in the memory of the Neighbor.\nYou seem to be thinking of the Raja as a Neighbor in human disguise. He's\nnot. Like the Mani the cat, he's neither Neighbor nor Horn nor Silk. He's a\nnew thing." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But it isn't just like Mani the Cat, is it? Mani the Cat is the unity of a\nspirit with the body of a cat. His catlike characteristics come from the\nfact that his spirit is now dealing with, and has been dealing with for some\ntime, the immutable physical nature of a cat. There's only one pen in his\npencase because he only one rational soul.\n\nThe Rajan, SilkHorn, whoever we call him has more than one rational\nsoul--there's a bunch of pens in the pencase (maybe different numbers at\ndifferent times, whatever). I think Silk's rational soul is there--not just\nhis animal or vegetative souls kicking memories up at Neighbor/Horn's\nrational soul(s?), but his rational soul, that thing we loosely call\n\"Silk.\" It's just that \"Silk\" has lost his will to live and is in deep\ndespair, so he tries to be Horn or Neighbor/Horn or whoever else is in the\ngestalt. He fails pretty miserably at this, of course--he writes and talks\nlike Silk whenever he isn't actively remembering something Horn did when\nSilk wasn't around yet.\n\nEven if you believe that Silk is dead when Neighbor/Horn gets dumped in\nthere, that's fine--but I think then you have to say that the Silver Silk\ngets in there somehow from Pig. Except that then I'm not sure how to take\nthe decision to leave Blue...Silver Silk is definitely part Pas, and Pas's\nwhole scheme was to rule over Blue and Green as a living god. Is Silk's\ninnate goodness enough to overcome that?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<273409710903191552o3dd3e979wed359127b3049109@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T22:52:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The End of RTTW", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can't imagine Typhon having knowledge of Ushas. Seems against the\nthematics to me....\n\n\nAnd yeah, I've always interpreted that \"killed their father\" line as an\nacknowledgement that there is nothing left of Horn in Silk, even though he's\nbeen pretending their is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 3:50 PM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: James Wynn [mailto:crushtv at gmail.com]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Where are they all going? To find another planet to colonize, I suppose." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But this is one of the more hurtful events for believing that the Short Sun\nis Sol. After returning to a depopulated Urth or Ushas. Why are they leaving\nagain?\n\nMaybe part of Typhon's plan was not only to go to new worlds, but to return\nto Urth after it's become Ushas. Maybe he knows about the test and the white\nfountain and such, since the black hole exists in his time. Just like he\nattempted to have himself on the other side of the star crossing, maybe he\nwanted to be on the other side of the NewSun Flooding.\nSo, after that's accomplished, more starcrossing.\n????" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Silk was always \"there\". That's his body. He's got a brain full of\nmemories. His love for Hyacinth is still there, in that regard. I would\nguess that Horn's memories only exist anymore in the memory of the Neighbor." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You seem to be thinking of the Raja as a Neighbor in human disguise. He's\nnot. Like the Mani the cat, he's neither Neighbor nor Horn nor Silk. He's a\nnew thing.\n\nDespite my reticence to accept the whole idea, I guess it is compelling in\nlight of the \"I killed your father\" bit. I don't understand though why a\nNeighbor / Faerie would have any grief over killing Horn if that's a\nstandard Faerie activity — crossing folks over after a stag chace.\n\nHas Silk's spirit just crowded Horn's out?\nIs Silk speaking metaphorically? It was the quest for Silk that killed\nHorn. perhaps he feels guilty for being both the object and the inspiration\nfor the quest.\n\n~witz\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2009-03-19T22:58:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, 19 Mar 2009, Son of Witz wrote:\n\nsorry man, just kidding. I'm just glad I'm not overly invested in any of \nmy readings. dang, it's gotta hurt. What can you do when your text is \nprinted wrong? it's like if I did a painting of the Amphisbaena based on \nthe typo where he writes \"Hand\" instead of \"Head\". My serpent would be \nchomping it's hand.\n\n~witz" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nah, that would have been for _Engine Summer_.\n\nDavid Duffy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0903191600o3be80103q17f68559b1dfee5c@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T23:00:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 5:49 PM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: James Wynn [mailto:crushtv at gmail.com]\nSent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 02:38 PM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) Babbie\n\nsorry man, just kidding." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm just glad I'm not overly invested in any of my readings.\ndang, it's gotta hurt. What can you do when your text is printed wrong?\nit's like if I did a painting of the Amphisbaena based on the typo where he\nwrites \"Hand\" instead of \"Head\". My serpent would be chomping it's hand." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "TROGDOR!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "~witz\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-19T23:01:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The End of RTTW", "in_reply_to": "<273409710903191552o3dd3e979wed359127b3049109@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Jordon Flato [mailto:jordonflato at gmail.com]\nSent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 03:52 PM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) The End of RTTW\n\nI can't imagine Typhon having knowledge of Ushas. Seems against the\nthematics to me...." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "maybe. I'm not sure.\nbut he knew of the Black Hole. The Hierodules were behind the Autarch. were they behind him? Is this barbaric state that Autarchy/Heirodules/Heirogrammates keep Urth in an outcome of Typhon's sending crude humanity out into the stars?\nIt seems very viable to me that this situation of the Test and the New Sun promise pre-existed the Autarchy simply because the black hole (which was PUT THERE) pre-existed the Autarchy." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-19T23:03:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0903191600o3be80103q17f68559b1dfee5c@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: John Watkins [mailto:john.watkins04 at gmail.com]\nSent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 04:00 PM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) Babbie\n\nOn Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 5:49 PM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: James Wynn [mailto:crushtv at gmail.com]\nSent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 02:38 PM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) Babbie\n\nsorry man, just kidding." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm just glad I'm not overly invested in any of my readings.\ndang, it's gotta hurt. What can you do when your text is printed wrong?\nit's like if I did a painting of the Amphisbaena based on the typo where he\nwrites \"Hand\" instead of \"Head\". My serpent would be chomping it's hand." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "TROGDOR!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't get this joke.\nDo you know I made and published a book called TROG?\nI don't get the _engines summer_ joke either.\n\n~Witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<273409710903191606i3815e1acsa7aa9da6205dbe9f@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T23:06:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The End of RTTW", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We both know I don't subscribe to the Blue/Ushas theory, so I can't even\nbegin to entertain your insane Ramblings, Son of.\n\n;)\n\nSeriously, I think the black hole may have been implanted as punishment for\nsending crude humanity out into the stars, but I don't see Typhon being\ngiven any knowledge of the 'fix' for that, since he was a major part of the\nproblem. Besides, the 'fix' for that problem came back and pretty much\nspelled the end for typhon, which the Heirodules would have known, so why\nwould they tell Typhon about it knowing that he would be fuxored by the\nConciliator (twice) anyway?\n\nHmmm. Nope. I ain't buyin' it even it if is on sale." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 4:01 PM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Jordon Flato [mailto:jordonflato at gmail.com]\nSent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 03:52 PM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) The End of RTTW\n\nI can't imagine Typhon having knowledge of Ushas. Seems against the\nthematics to me...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "maybe. I'm not sure.\nbut he knew of the Black Hole. The Hierodules were behind the Autarch.\nwere they behind him? Is this barbaric state that\nAutarchy/Heirodules/Heirogrammates keep Urth in an outcome of Typhon's\nsending crude humanity out into the stars?\nIt seems very viable to me that this situation of the Test and the New Sun\npromise pre-existed the Autarchy simply because the black hole (which was\nPUT THERE) pre-existed the Autarchy.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370903191610s2556edecvaf82fd92a5c548e3@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T23:10:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The End of RTTW", "in_reply_to": "<065DE572E0E64C5D8B3CD6A2EC28B084@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 3:37 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nThe ending is a mystery to me as well. I feel like I'm supposed to recognize\nOreb's \"Good Fishing!\" comment as a reference. But I'll be danged if I do.\nConsider that Wolfe says the the first thing he plots is his ending. Sheesh." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Possibly to the godfather of all generation-ship stories, Robert Heinlein's\n\"Orphans of the Sky.\" The common greeting on that ship, and one of the\nlast lines of the book, is \"Good eating!\"" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-19T23:17:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The End of RTTW", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370903191610s2556edecvaf82fd92a5c548e3@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "why tell Typhon?\nwhy not? He ain't gonna be the fix if he was the problem.\n\ncome on man, 50% off today only.\nHow can we give away our crackpot theories so cheaply?\nVolume, Volume, Volume.\nI got a storehouse full of this crap, got to foist it off somehow.\n\n~shitz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Jordon Flato [mailto:jordonflato at gmail.com]\nSent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 04:06 PM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) The End of RTTW\n\nWe both know I don't subscribe to the Blue/Ushas theory, so I can't even\nbegin to entertain your insane Ramblings, Son of.\n\n;)\n\nSeriously, I think the black hole may have been implanted as punishment for\nsending crude humanity out into the stars, but I don't see Typhon being\ngiven any knowledge of the 'fix' for that, since he was a major part of the\nproblem. Besides, the 'fix' for that problem came back and pretty much\nspelled the end for typhon, which the Heirodules would have known, so why\nwould they tell Typhon about it knowing that he would be fuxored by the\nConciliator (twice) anyway?\n\nHmmm. Nope. I ain't buyin' it even it if is on sale.\n\nOn Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 4:01 PM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Jordon Flato [mailto:jordonflato at gmail.com]\nSent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 03:52 PM" } ] }, { "message_id": "<273409710903191618q367e1c8x7f8c4c2778885334@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T23:18:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The End of RTTW", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've got some cheap derivative credit default swaps I can leverage with you\nfor those theories.\n\nWanna trade?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 4:17 PM, Son of Witz wrote:\nwhy tell Typhon?\nwhy not? He ain't gonna be the fix if he was the problem.\n\ncome on man, 50% off today only.\nHow can we give away our crackpot theories so cheaply?\nVolume, Volume, Volume.\nI got a storehouse full of this crap, got to foist it off somehow.\n\n~shitz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Jordon Flato [mailto:jordonflato at gmail.com]\nSent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 04:06 PM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) The End of RTTW\n\nWe both know I don't subscribe to the Blue/Ushas theory, so I can't even\nbegin to entertain your insane Ramblings, Son of.\n\n;)\n\nSeriously, I think the black hole may have been implanted as punishment\nfor\nsending crude humanity out into the stars, but I don't see Typhon being\ngiven any knowledge of the 'fix' for that, since he was a major part of\nthe\nproblem. Besides, the 'fix' for that problem came back and pretty much\nspelled the end for typhon, which the Heirodules would have known, so why\nwould they tell Typhon about it knowing that he would be fuxored by the\nConciliator (twice) anyway?\n\nHmmm. Nope. I ain't buyin' it even it if is on sale.\n\nOn Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 4:01 PM, Son of Witz ", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-03-20T01:36:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not at all. But I'm allowing myself to be understood too literally. \n\nI'm suggesting that Wolfe rewrites or incorporates myths and mythical systems, and that we can easily recognize elements from time to time. So Pas is obviously Zeus; certain people have a certain resonance with Christ, some characters resemble angels, others fairy-tale monsters, and still others are people who can't be seen unless they want you to see them. Like the Little People of Ireland, the Neighbors once lived on Blue but now have gone away and will never be seen again. Or not.\n\nDivinity has nothing to do with it, in other words. It's more about niches in literary ecosystems. Just as a horse goddess could be worshiped across pre-Roman Europe under dozens of names, figures out of myth can easily be mixed up and switched around." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 2\nDate: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 14:22:33 -0700\nFrom: Jordon Flato \nSubject: Re: (urth) Babbie" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C2F50D.3080302@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-03-20T01:44:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Neighbors as Faeries", "in_reply_to": "<273409710903191528g71cc9845vff89c2d36ccd579c@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Exactly, thanks. I've pretty well forgotten the details of the Mabinogion myself. \n\nBut I do remember that Annwn is always accessible, always close by---you can stumble on it anywhere, whether you see the signs or not, but especially at night or in a wood or by a ford or a mound. \n\nIt's both infinitely far (if it never opens for you) and right at your side. If the gods live there, they are literally our neighbors. Latro knows this." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 7\nDate: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 17:03:24 -0500\nFrom: \"James Wynn\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Neighbors as Faeries\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: <542BFC20783A4AB1B6CEA9AD7C5835DE at eMachinePC>\nContent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=\"iso-8859-1\";\n\treply-type=response\n\nIn \"An Evil Guest\" one of the characters says that the term \"banshee\", which \nmeans \"woman of the faerie mounds\" means that they are one of the \"gray \nneighbors\".\n\nIn folklore/mythology, chasing a white stag inevitably leads one to \nFaerieland, meaning the other world, the world of spirits, where one's \nancestors go. The most famous case was Pwyll in the Mabinogion, who become \nthe Head of the Annwn (that is, Faerieland). Incidentally Pwyll's name meant \n\"sense\" and his son Pryderi's name meant \"care\" or \"thought\". This is a \nnaming convention that I thought of when I was reading Long Sun.\n\nThere's another way to get to Faerieland too. You can enter a faerie circle. \nFor Horn, the faerie circle was a pit. Seawrack and Babbie were not \nmistaken. Horn was dead dead dead. He had gone on the Summer lands.\n\n\n------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C2F9A7.2070407@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-03-20T02:04:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The End of RTTW", "in_reply_to": "<273409710903191618q367e1c8x7f8c4c2778885334@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The difference between Wolfe's version of the faerie circle and the mythic originals is that the old plot mechanics have been switched out for something more complex and literary (and useful to Wolfe the Catholic). That's critical.\n\nThat is, just because Horn sees a \"stag\" and chases it through a circle ruins, that doesn't mean he will be taken away by a beautiful green woman and made love to forever on the mossy forest floor, to return in 100 years. That's Abel, anyway. Nor does it mean a giant will demand that he cut off his head, or that he will be killed by his own hounds, etc. Those stories have been told.\n\nWolfe's story has its own logic, but uses the elements of these old stories. The significance of these particular elements (buck, circle) is that when Horn dies, he continues to live in another mode. They are \"signs\" of a life-change involving the otherworld, i.e., a resurrection of sorts---we know from them that he didn't just knock himself out.\n\nExactly what mode that is, and the precise mechanics of the resurrection, is peculiar to Horn's story." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 22:50:45 +0000\nFrom: \"Son of Witz\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) The End of RTTW\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\n\n\nDespite my reticence to accept the whole idea, I guess it is compelling in light of the \"I killed your father\" bit. I don't understand though why a Neighbor / Faerie would have any grief over killing Horn if that's a standard Faerie activity — crossing folks over after a stag chace.\n\nHas Silk's spirit just crowded Horn's out?\nIs Silk speaking metaphorically? It was the quest for Silk that killed Horn. perhaps he feels guilty for being both the object and the inspiration for the quest.\n\n~witz\n\n\n\n------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C2FA50.5070402@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-03-20T02:07:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "<49C2F310.3040207@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Snakes' hands. You'll have to read John Crowley." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 23:03:17 +0000\nFrom: \"Son of Witz\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Babbie\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\n\n\nI don't get this joke.\nDo you know I made and published a book called TROG?\nI don't get the _engines summer_ joke either.\n\n~Witz\n\n\n\n\n\n------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<39ed084f0903191943w4f8c4efyc6ae325cc01d70c8@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Groves", "address": "matthewalangroves at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-20T02:43:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The End of RTTW", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370903191610s2556edecvaf82fd92a5c548e3@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 6:10 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nPossibly to the godfather of all generation-ship stories, Robert Heinlein's\n\"Orphans of the Sky.\" The common greeting on that ship, and one of the\nlast lines of the book, is \"Good eating!\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You actually read that book all the way to the end? Ugh." } ] }, { "message_id": "<7E7167EA-20EF-4805-BD5C-C7F98FAD0ED7@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-03-20T02:45:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 19, 2009, at 5:58 PM, David Duffy wrote:\nOn Thu, 19 Mar 2009, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "sorry man, just kidding. I'm just glad I'm not overly invested in \nany of my readings. dang, it's gotta hurt. What can you do when \nyour text is printed wrong? it's like if I did a painting of the \nAmphisbaena based on the typo where he writes \"Hand\" instead of \n\"Head\". My serpent would be chomping it's hand.\n\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nah, that would have been for _Engine Summer_." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Touch?, Dr. Boots.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<229A8265-27A5-4FE5-87C7-7F8620D78C95@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-03-20T02:45:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0903191600o3be80103q17f68559b1dfee5c@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 19, 2009, at 6:00 PM, John Watkins wrote:\n\n\nOn Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 5:49 PM, Son of Witz ", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-03-20T02:48:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The End of RTTW", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370903191610s2556edecvaf82fd92a5c548e3@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 19, 2009, at 6:10 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOn Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 3:37 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The ending is a mystery to me as well. I feel like I'm supposed to \nrecognize\nOreb's \"Good Fishing!\" comment as a reference. But I'll be danged \nif I do.\nConsider that Wolfe says the the first thing he plots is his \nending. Sheesh." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Possibly to the godfather of all generation-ship stories, Robert \nHeinlein's\n\"Orphans of the Sky.\" The common greeting on that ship, and one of the\nlast lines of the book, is \"Good eating!\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": ".....\n\n\nThat's beautiful.\n\nAnd it might even be right.\n\nI mean, as well as being Godly Fishers Of Eyeballs spreading the Gospel.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<573763.31121.qm@web37606.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-03-20T03:10:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Neighbors as Faeries", "in_reply_to": "<273409710903191512r499b47bbyd5e0df8bb9d2694a@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Another point that calls it into question for me is his attitude towards the Neighbors in IGJ. If I recall correctly, there are a few passages where he questions Incanto & Co. about local Neighbor ruins and/or local legends about them. But his attitude was definitely groping for information. I know that's vague, and I don't have the book with me to check for passages. But I just recall a general sense of Horn's still trying to learn about the Neighbors, which would seem odd if he was one.\n\n\n\n\n\nAnd, why would a neighbor, finally admitting what he is, if only to himself, choose to return to the Whorl, at the very end? Silk, yes, but a neighbor?\n\n\nOn Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 3:09 PM, Jordon Flato wrote:\n\nWell, I'll be looking for evidence of the Neighbor's personality manifesting in the book in this read through. There are plenty of instances of Silk manifesting momentarily through Horn without his intention (which I don't see how that has much resonance or meaning aside from a red herring if a neighbor is actually inhabiting Horn), but I can't think of many instances, save your ambiguous quote at the end about killing their father, where the personality doesn't seem to be Horn or Silk. I would expect, if you are right, there are other clues throughout. I don't see them. *yet* But it does give me something new to look for in this read through!\n\nI would agree that chasing the stag, falling in the Pit (which was in the midst of a classic faerie circle of the ruins) represented a crossing over of sorts, but I don't think it necessitates Horns death. That is a turning point in the narrative for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that it brings Horn directly to the attention of the neighbors (without, I would posit, necessitating a transfer of 'souls' into Horn).\n\nI grant it is possible, but I just don't see it yet.\n\n\n\n\nOn Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 3:03 PM, James Wynn wrote:\n\nIn \"An Evil Guest\" one of the characters says that the term \"banshee\", which means \"woman of the faerie mounds\" means that they are one of the \"gray neighbors\".\n\nIn folklore/mythology, chasing a white stag inevitably leads one to Faerieland, meaning the other world, the world of spirits, where one's ancestors go. The most famous case was Pwyll in the Mabinogion, who become the Head of the Annwn (that is, Faerieland). Incidentally Pwyll's name meant \"sense\" and his son Pryderi's name meant \"care\" or \"thought\". This is a naming convention that I thought of when I was reading Long Sun.\n\nThere's another way to get to Faerieland too. You can enter a faerie circle. For Horn, the faerie circle was a pit. Seawrack and Babbie were not mistaken. Horn was dead dead dead. He had gone on the Summer lands." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-20T03:25:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The End of RTTW", "in_reply_to": "<49C2F9A7.2070407@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nor does it mean a giant will demand that he cut off his head,\nor that he will be killed by his own hounds, etc. Those stories have been told." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Umm...but he was killed on Green by his own men, right?\n(hello Actaeon)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6F1EFF4DADFD4AB4B9D6EC097574A828@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-20T03:51:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The End of RTTW", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370903191610s2556edecvaf82fd92a5c548e3@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The ending is a mystery to me as well. I feel like I'm supposed to\nrecognize Oreb's \"Good Fishing!\" comment as a reference. \nBut I'll be danged if I do. Consider that Wolfe says the the first\nthing he plots is his ending. Sheesh." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Possibly to the godfather of all generation-ship stories, \nRobert Heinlein's \"Orphans of the Sky.\" The common greeting\non that ship, and one of the\nlast lines of the book, is \"Good eating!\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "By george, I think he's got it.\n\nJ " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-20T04:08:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Neighbors as Faeries", "in_reply_to": "<573763.31121.qm@web37606.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Another point that calls it into question for me is his attitude towards the\nNeighbors in IGJ. If I recall correctly, there are a few passages where\nhe questions Incanto & Co. about local Neighbor ruins and/or local legends\nabout them. But his attitude was definitely groping for information. \nI know that's vague, and I don't have the book with me to check for passages.\nBut I just recall a general sense of Horn's still trying to learn about the\nNeighbors, which would seem odd if he was one." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd have examine the text with that in mind, but even if it were true, I can think of a couple of explanations. \n\nOne is that the Raja is acting as he knows Horn would. If you've read The Fifth Head of Cerberus, you know that a truly perfect imitation loses the extraordinary attributes that allowed him to be a perfect mimic in the first place. VRT does not switch disguises and escape from jail because Dr. Marsch could not. And the Raja does not use any knowledge Neighbory knowledge (except at the very end) in order to help himself along. Krait acts similarly.\n\nAnother explanation is that the Raja is a very young Neighbor; that the blue glass dome where Horn found him was a destroyed nursery. Considering the small trees there, that seems reasonable.\n\nHowever it is, I'm grateful to David Stockhoff for bringing the myth of Actaeon to my attention today. Before reading SS I had already written an essay showing that the LS narrative overlaid the myth of Aristaeus. If I had stopped to think that Wolfe might carry that story on into the SS when I read it, I might been *looking* for Horn to be turned in to a stag before I even read it. Or I might have missed it, which seems likely since Wolfe has the story so cleverly twisted.\n\nJ.\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris P", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-20T04:14:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Neighbors as Faeries", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It has been too long since I read the books and my memory is hazy, but is there not also an aspect in which the Neighbors are themselves sort of... composite... beings? Would it be possible on your interpretation for it not to be an entire Neighbor in there, but just a part of one - just enough, perhaps, to be able to recognize a kinship with the rest of itself when it shakes hands, but not enough to have the full memory and personality of a \"complete\" Neighbor?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "\"When small men begin to cast big shadows, it means that the sun is about to set.\" -- Lin Yutang\n\n\n\nFrom: crushtv at gmail.com\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nDate: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 23:08:22 -0500\nSubject: Re: (urth) Neighbors as Faeries\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Another point that calls it into question for me is his attitude \ntowards the\nNeighbors in IGJ. If I recall correctly, there are a few passages \nwhere\nhe questions Incanto & Co. about local Neighbor ruins and/or local \nlegends\nabout them. But his attitude was definitely groping for information. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I know that's vague, and I don't have the book with me to check for \npassages.\nBut I just recall a general sense of Horn's still trying to learn about \nthe\nNeighbors, which would seem odd if he was one." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI'd have examine the text with that in mind, but \neven if it were true, I can think of a couple of explanations. \n \nOne is that the Raja is acting as he knows Horn \nwould. If you've read The Fifth Head of Cerberus, you know that a truly perfect \nimitation loses the extraordinary attributes that allowed him to be a perfect \nmimic in the first place. VRT does not switch disguises and escape from jail \nbecause Dr. Marsch could not. And the Raja does not use any knowledge Neighbory \nknowledge (except at the very end) in order to help himself along. Krait \nacts similarly.\n \nAnother explanation is that the Raja is a very \nyoung Neighbor; that the blue glass dome where Horn found him was \na destroyed nursery. Considering the small trees there, that \nseems reasonable.\n \nHowever it is, I'm grateful to David Stockhoff for \nbringing the myth of Actaeon to my attention today. Before reading SS I had \nalready written an essay showing that the LS narrative overlaid the myth of \nAristaeus. If I had stopped to think that Wolfe might carry that story on into \nthe SS when I read it, I might been *looking* for Horn to be turned in to a stag \nbefore I even read it. Or I might have missed it, which seems likely since \nWolfe has the story so cleverly twisted.\n\nJ.\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<20090320114232.GB5666@broggs.org>", "from": { "name": "Jeffrey Brent McBeth", "address": "mcbeth at broggs.org" }, "date": "2009-03-20T11:42:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The End of RTTW", "in_reply_to": "<02C7327E-2312-4007-BA4F-DBAC32BB1C6A@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 09:48:48PM -0500, Adam Thornton wrote:\n\nPossibly to the godfather of all generation-ship stories, Robert \nHeinlein's\n\"Orphans of the Sky.\" The common greeting on that ship, and one of the\nlast lines of the book, is \"Good eating!\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": ".....\n\n\nThat's beautiful.\n\nAnd it might even be right.\n\nI mean, as well as being Godly Fishers Of Eyeballs spreading the Gospel." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Those are pretty cool. I had jumped to the \"Good Hunting\" from\nKipling's The Jungle Books, but there really isn't much reason to like\nmine.\n\nJeff" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "----------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\"The man who does not read good books has no advantage over \n the man who cannot read them.\"\n -- Mark Twain\n----------------------------------------------------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C38492.1030201@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-03-20T11:57:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The End of RTTW", "in_reply_to": "<20090320114232.GB5666@broggs.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If you say so. I need to read it again! " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 22:25:13 -0500\nFrom: James Wynn \nSubject: Re: (urth) The End of RTTW\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID:\n\t\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Nor does it mean a giant will demand that he cut off his head,\nor that he will be killed by his own hounds, etc. Those stories have been told." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n\nUmm...but he was killed on Green by his own men, right?\n(hello Actaeon)\n\n\n------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<661114F506464A85A72F6C866025447C@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-20T12:04:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Neighbors as Faeries", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It has been too long since I read the books and my memory is hazy,\nbut is there not also an aspect in which the Neighbors are\nthemselves sort of... composite... beings? Would it be possible\non your interpretation for it not to be an entire Neighbor in there,\nbut just a part of one - just enough, perhaps, to be able to\nrecognize a kinship with the rest of itself when it shakes hands,\nbut not enough to have the full memory and personality of a\n\"complete\" Neighbor?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Do you mean this in the way the Shadow children were? And in the way that three children were who were turned into a flock of geese in Peace? I think there is probably something to that. The Raja's memory is weak when he meets the first Neighbor but in a larger group, he remembers better...perfectly (although he refuses to write what he knows. Whether that is applicable to the Raja's knowledge of Neighbor culture and history, I don't know.\n\nHOWEVER, Seawrack forgets everything about her past, even about Mother herself, the longer she is with him. IIFC she does this deliberately according to Mother's command.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C39394.6030306@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-03-20T13:01:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Neighbors as Faeries", "in_reply_to": "<661114F506464A85A72F6C866025447C@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No problem. Thanks for pointing me to your essay. The parallels to LS are indeed unavoidable.\n\nMy guess as to the reason Wolfe chose this story to retell is simply that it involves a character who promotes the cult of the High God. He doesn't do it because he's pure of heart etc. but because it's the right thing to do; it's also cool the way he appears and disappears as though he has been transformed or Apollo manifests in him. \n\nThis kind of tale is often taken to \"prefigure\" monotheism. That makes Wolfe's aim superficially propagandistic, in a way. \n\nBut I think it's more personal than that---he reads myths and thinks, \"I could tell that story better by reshaping it to point to the true Divine that I myself seek.\" The value of the myths---and of Baum's stories and other Wolfean models---is that they instill a sense of wonder, perhaps especially childlike, which Wolfe clearly considers appropriate in approaching the divine.\n\nIn fact, the analogy to a child's imagination is probably apt. As a child might believe the moon smiles at him and wishes him good night, so the pre-Christians would naturally see a multitude of spirits in the world without recognizing the most subtle one that animates them all. And none of us has any particular advantage in this over the Celts or Greeks." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 2\nDate: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 23:08:22 -0500\nFrom: \"James Wynn\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Neighbors as Faeries" } ] }, { "message_id": "<39ed084f0903200812g3b1f3e0v59d93839da209397@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Groves", "address": "matthewalangroves at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-20T15:12:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 3:28 PM, Son of Witz wrote:\nEven that a Stag can be a god (is that right) doesn't really jibe because teh neighbors are not gods.\n\n~witz" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Aren't they gods? I've always wondered whether the many-armedness of\nthe Neighbors was meant, in part, to allude to the representation of\nHindu deities, especially in light of the Indian culture of Gaon and\nthe fact that the protagonist is the Rajan." } ] }, { "message_id": "<273409710903200856u3bc2f8dbucc5e464c214cd1e4@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-20T15:56:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "<49C2F310.3040207@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And I'm allowing myself to respond to literally!\n\nThere is no denying the mythic resonance of the scene with the pit, the\ngreenbuck, and Horn's 'death'. And now that I've just freshly read the\nencounter with the Neighbors, their resonance with the faerie is\nundeniable. Something was given to Horn in the Pit. I might have been new\nlife, or at least a reparied life. Some of a neighbor might have gone into\nhim. I don't think, at this point, it replaced him.\n\nFor one, he has memories of seeing Babbie looking down at him from the edge\nof the pit, so when Babbie sees him and assumes he's dead, he isn't. Also,\nafter the first meeting with Krait, he sees an actual neighbor, who sends\nhis spirit flying back to Nettle (a loaded moment if ever there was one), by\ntouching something to his head. If he is already inhabited by a neighbor,\nwhat is the use of this? Well, I'm sure I could think of some if I tried.\n\nIt is certainly giving me an interesting perspective on this read through.\nI'm very grateful for that!\n\nHere are few questions I've come up with this time through OBW:\n\n1) The Neighbors knew of the Mother, and while Horn calls her a Goddess, I\ndon't think we ever know if the Neighbors considered her to be so. It is\nSeawrack who gives Horn the ring which identifies him as a neighbor/man to\nHe-Pens-Sheep, and may single him out as a representative of all humanity\nfor the Neighbors (or, he IS a neighbor if you want to go that route, which\nI don't yet). Seawrack comes back with the ring after disappearing under\nthe waves for a while. Could the Mother have given her the ring to give to\nhorn, in an effort to engineer a peace between the neighbors and humanity?\nIs that part of seawracks purpose, and part of why she was sent to Horn?\nIt's a stretch, but something tingles in the back of my head about it.\n\n2) The neighbors say, when talking of their world: \"Some of you call the\nplacw where we are the Neighbor Whorl. It does not matter what we call it,\nor what we once called this one.\" Who on Blue would know what World the\nNeighbors went to, and call it the Neighbor whorl? It is clear in the\nsentence they are talking about a world other than Blue. Who else on Blue\nknows about it? Felt significant (and is maybe touched on later, and I'm\ncompletely forgetting)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 6:36 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nNot at all. But I'm allowing myself to be understood too literally.\nI'm suggesting that Wolfe rewrites or incorporates myths and mythical\nsystems, and that we can easily recognize elements from time to time. So Pas\nis obviously Zeus; certain people have a certain resonance with Christ, some\ncharacters resemble angels, others fairy-tale monsters, and still others are\npeople who can't be seen unless they want you to see them. Like the Little\nPeople of Ireland, the Neighbors once lived on Blue but now have gone away\nand will never be seen again. Or not.\n\nDivinity has nothing to do with it, in other words. It's more about niches\nin literary ecosystems. Just as a horse goddess could be worshiped across\npre-Roman Europe under dozens of names, figures out of myth can easily be\nmixed up and switched around.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 2\nDate: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 14:22:33 -0700\nFrom: Jordon Flato \nSubject: Re: (urth) Babbie" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-20T16:23:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "<273409710903200856u3bc2f8dbucc5e464c214cd1e4@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: David Stockhoff [mailto:dstockhoff at verizon.net]\nSent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 06:36 PM\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Babbie\n\nNot at all. But I'm allowing myself to be understood too literally. \n\nI'm suggesting that Wolfe rewrites or incorporates myths and mythical systems, and that we can easily recognize elements from time to time. So Pas is obviously Zeus; certain people have a certain resonance with Christ, some characters resemble angels, others fairy-tale monsters, and still others are people who can't be seen unless they want you to see them. Like the Little People of Ireland, the Neighbors once lived on Blue but now have gone away and will never be seen again. Or not.\n\nDivinity has nothing to do with it, in other words. It's more about niches in literary ecosystems. Just as a horse goddess could be worshiped across pre-Roman Europe under dozens of names, figures out of myth can easily be mixed up and switched around." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David,\nThis is an excellent post. You've stated very succinctly his technique, which I had understood, but seeing it framed like that is a reminder that helps me see the forest amongst the trees.\n\nSo, similar to Jordon's response, I'm with you on the faerie circle buck concept, and that it introduces Horn to their world and he is changed for it. I think no one could deny that this has happened in the mythic sense.\n \nAs to the particular Horn version, I think he was just repaired. There's no mechanism for a body cloning by Neighbors who might somehow also be bucks. Repair just makes sense without adding any devices. The fact that the Neighbors, on Green, tell him they could repair him (but you would still be here) is enough proof for me that they can do this, and it's more proof than any Neighbors as Greenbucks (or trees)\n\nI was unaware of the faerie circle / buck symbol.\n\n~witz " } ] }, { "message_id": "<129473.6546.qm@web81402.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Stuart Hamm", "address": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2009-03-20T17:23:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "<273409710903200856u3bc2f8dbucc5e464c214cd1e4@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'll try to look it up later, but on my last read I noticed a line where Seawrack says that \"Horn\" gave her the ring in the first place...\n\n???? Mobile — (415) 786-3624\n???? Skype? stuart.hamm\nmyspace.com/stuhamm\n? ??? stuarthamm.net\n\n\n--- On Fri, 3/20/09, Jordon Flato wrote:\nFrom: Jordon Flato \nSubject: Re: (urth) Babbie\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Friday, March 20, 2009, 8:56 AM\n\nAnd I'm allowing myself to respond to literally!\n\nThere is no denying the mythic resonance of the scene with the pit, the greenbuck, and Horn's 'death'. And now that I've just freshly read the encounter with the Neighbors, their resonance with the faerie is undeniable. Something was given to Horn in the Pit. I might have been new life, or at least a reparied life. Some of a neighbor might have gone into him. I don't think, at this point, it replaced him.\n\n\nFor one, he has memories of seeing Babbie looking down at him from the edge of the pit, so when Babbie sees him and assumes he's dead, he isn't. Also, after the first meeting with Krait, he sees an actual neighbor, who sends his spirit flying back to Nettle (a loaded moment if ever there was one), by touching something to his head. If he is already inhabited by a neighbor, what is the use of this? Well, I'm sure I could think of some if I tried.\n\n\nIt is certainly giving me an interesting perspective on this read through. I'm very grateful for that!\n\nHere are? few questions I've come up with this time through OBW:\n\n1)? The Neighbors knew of the Mother, and while Horn calls her a Goddess, I don't think we ever know if the Neighbors considered her to be so. It is Seawrack who gives Horn the ring which identifies him as a neighbor/man to He-Pens-Sheep, and may single him out as a representative of all humanity for the Neighbors (or, he IS a neighbor if you want to go that route, which I don't yet). Seawrack comes back with the ring after disappearing under the waves for a while. Could the Mother have given her the ring to give to horn, in an effort to engineer a peace between the neighbors and humanity? Is that part of seawracks purpose, and part of why she was sent to Horn? It's a stretch, but something tingles in the back of my head about it.\n\n\n2)? The neighbors say, when talking of their world: \"Some of you call the placw where we are the Neighbor Whorl. It does not matter what we call it, or what we once called this one.\"? Who on Blue would know what World the Neighbors went to, and call it the Neighbor whorl? It is clear in the sentence they are talking about a world other than Blue. Who else on Blue knows about it? Felt significant (and is maybe touched on later, and I'm completely forgetting).\n\n\n\n\n\n\nOn Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 6:36 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\nNot at all. But I'm allowing myself to be understood too literally. \n\nI'm suggesting that Wolfe rewrites or incorporates myths and mythical systems, and that we can easily recognize elements from time to time. So Pas is obviously Zeus; certain people have a certain resonance with Christ, some characters resemble angels, others fairy-tale monsters, and still others are people who can't be seen unless they want you to see them. Like the Little People of Ireland, the Neighbors once lived on Blue but now have gone away and will never be seen again. Or not.\n\n\n\n\nDivinity has nothing to do with it, in other words. It's more about niches in literary ecosystems. Just as a horse goddess could be worshiped across pre-Roman Europe under dozens of names, figures out of myth can easily be mixed up and switched around.\n\n\n\n\n------------------------------" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Message: 2\n\nDate: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 14:22:33 -0700\n\nFrom: Jordon Flato \n\nSubject: Re: (urth) Babbie" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C3D149.4070800@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-03-20T17:24:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "<129473.6546.qm@web81402.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks. It gets clearer for me with every iteration as well.\n\nYou can also think of it as a language. Wolfe is so steeped in myth I bet it oozes out his ears. As in language, you have standard words and sentence structures but you re-order and recombine them to get new meaning. So stags and faerie circles may not go together in myth (it's usually a pool or glade the stag leads you to), but they can meet if you want them to.\n\nI don't know if a Neighbor \"occupies\" Horn, but it is clear that Horn dies. And there is a lot of psyche-sharing through blood in SS---it seems to be a motif, like eidolons in NS. It may well be that the Neighbor gave Horn life in the only way he knew how, by giving him Neighbor-life---but in Horn's memories in Horn's body, because memories are electrical/physical. \n\nThen the Neighbor went off to continue his own life in his own body, having merely imprinted Horn's body with not a copy of himself but with the most basic spark of consciousness. Just enough so Horn's body and brain could reboot (plus fix his neck!).\n\nThis requires a life-psyche distinction, but not necessarily a soul-psyche distinction. We know a body can live while its brain is dead, and that a brain can \"live\" without thought. It makes sense that if the Neighbor revived Horn, Horn would only have Horn's memories. However, on some level we can't fathom, he may \"feel\" Neighborish---enough to put 2+2 and realize what happened and what he is. So he wouldn't know anything about any ruins, but might be drawn to them.\n\nPersonally, I suspect that the \"trees\" somehow summon or project Neighbors, and if multiple trees (say, a circle of them) project one Neighbor, then it makes sense that it would be both multiple (many-legged) and composite. But that's just a hunch." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 3\nDate: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 16:23:56 +0000\nFrom: \"Son of Witz\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Babbie" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0903201028j2d4a5109pe3bc1414970407d2@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-20T17:28:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "<49C3D149.4070800@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 1:24 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nThanks. It gets clearer for me with every iteration as well.\n\nYou can also think of it as a language. Wolfe is so steeped in myth I bet\nit oozes out his ears. As in language, you have standard words and sentence\nstructures but you re-order and recombine them to get new meaning. So stags\nand faerie circles may not go together in myth (it's usually a pool or glade\nthe stag leads you to), but they can meet if you want them to.\n\nI don't know if a Neighbor \"occupies\" Horn, but it is clear that Horn dies.\nAnd there is a lot of psyche-sharing through blood in SS---it seems to be a\nmotif, like eidolons in NS. It may well be that the Neighbor gave Horn life\nin the only way he knew how, by giving him Neighbor-life---but in Horn's\nmemories in Horn's body, because memories are electrical/physical.\nThen the Neighbor went off to continue his own life in his own body, having\nmerely imprinted Horn's body with not a copy of himself but with the most\nbasic spark of consciousness. Just enough so Horn's body and brain could\nreboot (plus fix his neck!)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This requires a life-psyche distinction, but not necessarily a soul-psyche\ndistinction. We know a body can live while its brain is dead, and that a\nbrain can \"live\" without thought. It makes sense that if the Neighbor\nrevived Horn, Horn would only have Horn's memories. However, on some level\nwe can't fathom, he may \"feel\" Neighborish---enough to put 2+2 and realize\nwhat happened and what he is. So he wouldn't know anything about any ruins,\nbut might be drawn to them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This makes the most sense to me of anything so far. NeighborHorn is\nNeighborHorn, not Neighbor/Horn--he doesn't have the Neighbor's\nmemories/personality/soul, but does have his life/essence/nature. He has\nHorn's memories/personality/ThomisticSoul, but not anything like Horn's\nPlatonic/eternal soul, if such things exist in Wolfe's world. He's Horn's\nghost in a Neighbor-enhanced version of Horn's body." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Personally, I suspect that the \"trees\" somehow summon or project Neighbors,\nand if multiple trees (say, a circle of them) project one Neighbor, then it\nmakes sense that it would be both multiple (many-legged) and composite. But\nthat's just a hunch.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 3\nDate: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 16:23:56 +0000\nFrom: \"Son of Witz\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Babbie" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-20T17:51:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0903201028j2d4a5109pe3bc1414970407d2@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Stockhoff:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't know if a Neighbor \"occupies\" Horn, but it is clear that Horn dies.\nAnd there is a lot of psyche-sharing through blood in SS---it seems to be a\nmotif, like eidolons in NS. It may well be that the Neighbor gave Horn life\nin the only way he knew how, by giving him Neighbor-life---but in Horn's\nmemories in Horn's body, because memories are electrical/physical.\nThen the Neighbor went off to continue his own life in his own body, having\nmerely imprinted Horn's body with not a copy of himself but with the most\nbasic spark of consciousness. Just enough so Horn's body and brain could\nreboot (plus fix his neck!)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This requires a life-psyche distinction, but not necessarily a soul-psyche\ndistinction. We know a body can live while its brain is dead, and that a\nbrain can \"live\" without thought. It makes sense that if the Neighbor\nrevived Horn, Horn would only have Horn's memories. However, on some level\nwe can't fathom, he may \"feel\" Neighborish---enough to put 2+2 and realize\nwhat happened and what he is. So he wouldn't know anything about any ruins,\nbut might be drawn to them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Watkins:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This makes the most sense to me of anything so far. NeighborHorn is\nNeighborHorn, not Neighbor/Horn--he doesn't have the Neighbor's\nmemories/personality/soul, but does have his life/essence/nature. He has\nHorn's memories/personality/ThomisticSoul, but not anything like Horn's\nPlatonic/eternal soul, if such things exist in Wolfe's world. He's Horn's\nghost in a Neighbor-enhanced version of Horn's body." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Now I think I can get behind this.\nI think we may have come to terms with this thing here.\nwhat do you think Wynn? Lackey? Flato? Hamm?\n\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<273409710903201053h23875a94sf21550ddac6630e2@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-20T17:53:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm closer to accepting this then a full scale 'possession' of Horn by the\nNeighbor. I'll be looking closely through the book for more clues this time\naround.\n\nIn terms of ThomisticSoul vs. Eternal soul...well, that is a larger argument\nthat I won't wade into until I'm done with this read through of SS." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 10:51 AM, Son of Witz wrote:\nStockhoff:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I don't know if a Neighbor \"occupies\" Horn, but it is clear that Horn\ndies.\nAnd there is a lot of psyche-sharing through blood in SS---it seems to\nbe a\nmotif, like eidolons in NS. It may well be that the Neighbor gave Horn\nlife\nin the only way he knew how, by giving him Neighbor-life---but in Horn's\nmemories in Horn's body, because memories are electrical/physical.\nThen the Neighbor went off to continue his own life in his own body,\nhaving\nmerely imprinted Horn's body with not a copy of himself but with the\nmost\nbasic spark of consciousness. Just enough so Horn's body and brain could\nreboot (plus fix his neck!)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "This requires a life-psyche distinction, but not necessarily a\nsoul-psyche\ndistinction. We know a body can live while its brain is dead, and that a\nbrain can \"live\" without thought. It makes sense that if the Neighbor\nrevived Horn, Horn would only have Horn's memories. However, on some\nlevel\nwe can't fathom, he may \"feel\" Neighborish---enough to put 2+2 and\nrealize\nwhat happened and what he is. So he wouldn't know anything about any\nruins,\nbut might be drawn to them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Watkins:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This makes the most sense to me of anything so far. NeighborHorn is\nNeighborHorn, not Neighbor/Horn--he doesn't have the Neighbor's\nmemories/personality/soul, but does have his life/essence/nature. He has\nHorn's memories/personality/ThomisticSoul, but not anything like Horn's\nPlatonic/eternal soul, if such things exist in Wolfe's world. He's Horn's\nghost in a Neighbor-enhanced version of Horn's body." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Now I think I can get behind this.\nI think we may have come to terms with this thing here.\nwhat do you think Wynn? Lackey? Flato? Hamm?\n\n~witz\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<721629.6660.qm@web81405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Stuart Hamm", "address": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2009-03-20T18:10:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well yeah I'm buying this...I probably didn't make myself clear...I agree that he becomes part neighbor or something, not \"turning into\" one\n\n\nWe haven't even approached what happens to Inhumi when they drink neighbor blood....\n\n???? Mobile — (415) 786-3624\n???? Skype? stuart.hamm\nmyspace.com/stuhamm\n? ??? stuarthamm.net\n\n\n--- On Fri, 3/20/09, Son of Witz wrote:\nFrom: Son of Witz \nSubject: Re: (urth) Babbie\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Friday, March 20, 2009, 10:51 AM\n\nStockhoff:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't know if a Neighbor \"occupies\" Horn, but it is\nclear that Horn dies.\nAnd there is a lot of psyche-sharing through blood in SS---it seems to\nbe a\nmotif, like eidolons in NS. It may well be that the Neighbor gave Horn\nlife\nin the only way he knew how, by giving him Neighbor-life---but in\nHorn's\nmemories in Horn's body, because memories are electrical/physical.\nThen the Neighbor went off to continue his own life in his own body,\nhaving\nmerely imprinted Horn's body with not a copy of himself but with\nthe most\nbasic spark of consciousness. Just enough so Horn's body and brain\ncould\nreboot (plus fix his neck!)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This requires a life-psyche distinction, but not necessarily a\nsoul-psyche\ndistinction. We know a body can live while its brain is dead, and that\na\nbrain can \"live\" without thought. It makes sense that if the\nNeighbor\nrevived Horn, Horn would only have Horn's memories. However, on\nsome level\nwe can't fathom, he may \"feel\" Neighborish---enough to\nput 2+2 and realize\nwhat happened and what he is. So he wouldn't know anything about\nany ruins,\nbut might be drawn to them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Watkins:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This makes the most sense to me of anything so far. NeighborHorn is\nNeighborHorn, not Neighbor/Horn--he doesn't have the Neighbor's\nmemories/personality/soul, but does have his life/essence/nature. He has\nHorn's memories/personality/ThomisticSoul, but not anything like\nHorn's\nPlatonic/eternal soul, if such things exist in Wolfe's world. He's\nHorn's\nghost in a Neighbor-enhanced version of Horn's body." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Now I think I can get behind this.\nI think we may have come to terms with this thing here.\nwhat do you think Wynn? Lackey? Flato? Hamm?\n\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-20T18:48:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Watkins:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This makes the most sense to me of anything so far. NeighborHorn is\nNeighborHorn, not Neighbor/Horn--he doesn't have the Neighbor's\nmemories/personality/soul, but does have his life/essence/nature. He has\nHorn's memories/personality/ThomisticSoul, but not anything like Horn's\nPlatonic/eternal soul, if such things exist in Wolfe's world. He's Horn's\nghost in a Neighbor-enhanced version of Horn's body." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Witz:\nNow I think I can get behind this.\nI think we may have come to terms with this thing here.\nwhat do you think Wynn? Lackey? Flato? Hamm?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "John Watkins seems to be better at explaining these things than I am. Yes, \nthis is exactly the way I see it. Except for this: there is *some* kind of \nmemory possible if the reanimator chooses wants it badly enough because the \nsame thing happens to Silk in front of Hyacinth's coffin and the memory of \nHorn's memories are transferred as is the desire of NeighborHorn to complete \nhis mission.\n\nBut thinking of the revived persons in terms of a Platonic, particle soul \n(rather than a Thomist, wave pysche) is not useful in this case.\n\nJ " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-20T19:05:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "<49C3D149.4070800@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff:\nYou can also think of it as a language. Wolfe is so steeped in myth I bet \nit oozes out his ears. As in language, you have standard words and \nsentence\nstructures but you re-order and recombine them to get\nnew meaning. So stags and faerie circles may not go together\nin myth (it's usually a pool or glade the stag leads you to),\nbut they can meet if you want them to." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In 'The Hobbit', the dwarves see a white \"hart\" in Mirkwood and and try to \nshoot him down but all their arrows go awry. The narrator says that if they \nhad had their wits about them, they would have realized that their journey \nthrough the forest was almost at an end. Because people usually read that \nbook as children, this reference goes right by them. What he is saying is \nthat the appearance of the White Stag means that they are at the borders of \nthe kingdom of the Elves...the edge of Faerieland.\n\nJ.\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-20T20:02:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: James Wynn [mailto:crushtv at gmail.com]\nSent: Friday, March 20, 2009 12:05 PM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) Babbie" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff:\nYou can also think of it as a language. Wolfe is so steeped in myth I bet \nit oozes out his ears. As in language, you have standard words and \nsentence\nstructures but you re-order and recombine them to get\nnew meaning. So stags and faerie circles may not go together\nin myth (it's usually a pool or glade the stag leads you to),\nbut they can meet if you want them to." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In 'The Hobbit', the dwarves see a white \"hart\" in Mirkwood and and try to \nshoot him down but all their arrows go awry. The narrator says that if they \nhad had their wits about them, they would have realized that their journey \nthrough the forest was almost at an end. Because people usually read that \nbook as children, this reference goes right by them. What he is saying is \nthat the appearance of the White Stag means that they are at the borders of \nthe kingdom of the Elves...the edge of Faerieland.\n\nJ." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "neat. I just read that to my son and it went over both our heads.\n~m" } ] }, { "message_id": "<273409710903201349i471c4f9ev2fc1c982c0db472a@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-20T20:49:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The boy got it. He was just humoring you, didn't want to make you feel bad\nfor missing it." } ] }, { "message_id": "<44fb53d10903201402u57b2ad28of76d7a89a8a54db@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-20T21:02:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The End of RTTW", "in_reply_to": "<02C7327E-2312-4007-BA4F-DBAC32BB1C6A@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 10:48 PM, Adam Thornton wrote:\n\nThat's beautiful.\nAnd it might even be right.\nI mean, as well as being Godly Fishers Of Eyeballs spreading the Gospel.\nAdam" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And I think Wolfe is also making a joke to his readers: \"Good Fishing\"\nfor clues. Wolfe laughs and wonders if his readers will ever make head\nor tail of the book.\n\n-Matt" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49316.76.220.199.169.1237594398.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-21T00:13:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "<39ed084f0903200812g3b1f3e0v59d93839da209397@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It shows tht the Gods exist in more than three spatial dimensions.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 3:28 PM, Son of Witz \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Even that a Stag can be a god (is that right) doesn't really jibe\nbecause teh neighbors are not gods.\n\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Aren't they gods? I've always wondered whether the many-armedness of\nthe Neighbors was meant, in part, to allude to the representation of\nHindu deities, especially in light of the Indian culture of Gaon and\nthe fact that the protagonist is the Rajan.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<00eb01c9aaf5$a31c7370$e9555a50$@com>", "from": { "name": "Brian Lovely", "address": "brian at studiobl.com" }, "date": "2009-03-22T13:53:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Babbie", "in_reply_to": "<49316.76.220.199.169.1237594398.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...maybe they evolve from parasitic vines to leeches...\n\n--Brian Lovely\n\nWe haven't even approached what happens to Inhumi when they drink neighbor\nblood....\n\n \n \nmyspace.com/stuhamm\n stuarthamm.net" } ] } ] }