Subject: (urth) The Two Severians

From: m.driussi <m.driussi at genie.geis.com>
Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 01:04:00 +0000

vizcacha,

We are on the same page here.

Yes, even with the Claw and all bells and whistles, Severian can
still blow it.  Sometimes he does right all on his own, like refusing
to kill Agia.  At other times, just when he is about to blow it,
deux ex machina saves the day: in the commotion at the gate of Nessus,
for example, where he was about to grusomely kill the drover whose
whip had struck Dorcas, <shazam!> drover killed by his own horses.

The next question we have to tackle is: where is the "present" in
such a system where future is so looped into past?  The reason why
I ask is that it seems that TBOTNS is always a step back from the
"present" (ignoring the fact that it is a memoir, etc.).

See, it appears to take time to pass in the Urth Cycle, and time
flows evenly (at the same rate) in the ages Severian visits.  When
Severian walks from Typhon Era to Valeria's Reign, he stops boom!
Right at the deluge of the House Absolute.  When Sev runs back into
the deep past so very fast, he overshoots his white fountain link
and is catapulted a bit further before emerging in real time.  He has
to wait decades (a hundred years?) before the light of the white
fountain finally hits Urth, then he runs into the future to boom!
Ushas.  Where it seems that the same amount of time has flowed by (a
hundred years?).

So.  The white fountain forms endpoints for Severian's travel (since
he is using white fountain energy to travel).  He can only go so far
into the past as the moment white fountain light hit Urth (plus a
hundred years if "time velocity" is high enough to long jump), and he
can't go into the future at all . . . he can only go to the Present
as defined by the white fountain!

(That trip in the Last House was done using somebody else's machine.)

Anyway, for most of the Urth Cycle Severian is acting in a local
present that is slightly behind the Real Present.  But then in URTH,
when he tells Juturna that she rescued him in the river (I, ch. 2),
she says no I didn't but I will now.  At that moment, it seems to me,
Severian2 has become Severian1: he is clearly triggering an event
which will shape his own past; he has finally come up to the Real
Present.  (This sense is reinforced by the notion that he just time
walked to that time--it isn't the time he was born in, it is the
future.)  Up until that moment, the shade of some other future
Severian, just over the time horizon, has been altering and shaping
things.  But maybe it is just a milestone rather than a real arrival
at a new state.

Then there is the enigma of the Atrium of Time.  Perhaps it resides
in the Real Present . . .

=mantis=

*More Wolfe info & archive of this list at http://www.urth.net/urth/

---

From: C R Culver <crculver at aol.com>
Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 02:22:40 +0000

Mantis hypothesised:
<where he was about to grusomely kill the drover whose whip had struck Dorcas,
<shazam!> drover killed by his own horses.>

I think myself that that was a more merciful death than the "two apricots."

< Where it seems that the same amount of time has flowed by (a
hundred years?).>

Can it be that long? How have Odilo and Pega and the other lass lived so long?

<he can't go into the future at all . . . he can only go to the Present
as defined by the white fountain!>

That is, perhaps, because the future hasn't happened yet, and a Severian3
hasn't come about.

<At that moment, it seems to me, Severian2 has become Severian1>

It's ever so nice to see you using my terminology, Mantis <g>

<Then there is the enigma of the Atrium of Time.  Perhaps it resides
in the Real Present . . .>

I've always thought of the AoT as being the same kid of place that Madregot
flows through, i.e. outside the general scheme of Time. But, those people and
houses had to come from somewhere.

Christopher R. Culver <crculver at aol.com>
http://members.aol.com/crculver/index.html

---

From: David Rolsky <grimes at waste.org>
Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 21:46:28 +0000

>Can it be that long? How have Odilo and Pega and the other lass lived so
long?

I don't think that they are actually alive.  First of all, the Sleeper's
priest says that he is the grandchild of the first people who came to Ushas
(UOTNS, ch. 51.  page 369 of the Tor paperback).  Severian asks the priest
"Was it you who came to Ushas?"

The priest shakes his head and responds "My father's father and my mother's
mother."

We don't really get any idea how old the priest is but assuming that he is
even just 20 (which seems young for a priest) and his progenitors each had
kids at 20 years old then at least 60 years have passed since the coming of
the New Sun.  Given the fact that Odilo was at least in his 30s (given the
life experiences he descibes while on the raft) he'd have to be 90 when
Severian returns.

Now lets assume that Odilo was in his 40s, as is the priest, and that the
priest's progenitors were 28 when they had their respective children.  This
would make Odilo something around 106.  Given the apparent low tech level
of this culture, it seems very unlikely.

I think that when the priest says "There the other gods sleep" (last line
of UOTNS) referring to the bowers he is speaking metaphorically and that
these are the tombs of Odilo, Pega, & Thais, or at least monuments to them.
 This would make sense since Severian's bower is said to look much the
same, and its obviously a monument to his death, since it is believed that
he drowned.

Plus think how much more interesting it is for Severian to return to a time
where he has already passed into mythology (ok, that's not an argument for
anything but I still think its cool).

-Dave