{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5370", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5370, "subject": "Hut in the Jungle", "messages": 57, "voices": 13, "first": "2009-03-18T20:08:33+00:00", "last": "2009-04-08T08:30:55+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-18T20:08:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hut in the Jungle", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ok, so I'm rereading NewSun again.\n\nwhat the hell is going on in the Hut in the Jungle.\n\nI understand that it serves to show us that one can time travel, without knowing it, by merely walking through certain spaces that are somehow set up for this. This makes that very clear. Robert mentions Paris, and we see a propeller plane, it's a window into Urth's past as Earth.\n\nOthers have pointed out that the text the Preceptress is reading is from the Old Testament (or was that NT?). During that scene Agia uses the term Theoanthropos, God-Man, which is usually applied to Christ (any others?)\nIs this to tell us that belief in Christ is part of the world. \nI understand that, as the translation device goes, Theoanthropos could apply to other God-men we haven't met, so it's not a necessary reading, but is that the intent?\n\nInsangoma appears to be refering to the New Sun when he chants:\n\"He comes when the sun is setting,\nSee his feet upon the water!\nTracks of flame across the water\"\n\nand they feel the Tokoloshe, spirits from the future.\n\"Don't you see they are only the results of what we do? They are the spiritis of the future, and we make them ourselves?\"\nIs this just saying that the fallen state of Urth is contemporary Earth's doing, somehow?\n\nand what is Insagoma's story about the nephew fishing?\n\n\n/confused\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93F2BD79-F9DA-455F-BC2C-1DD7F14AC03F@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T20:14:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hut in the Jungle", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 18, 2009, at 3:08 PM, Son of Witz wrote:\n\nI understand that it serves to show us that one can time travel, \nwithout knowing it, by merely walking through certain spaces that \nare somehow set up for this. This makes that very clear. Robert \nmentions Paris, and we see a propeller plane, it's a window into \nUrth's past as Earth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Are we sure it's the past?\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<546F8E4F5A224456A6CD4E91FFAEFD6E@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T20:42:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hut in the Jungle", "in_reply_to": "<93F2BD79-F9DA-455F-BC2C-1DD7F14AC03F@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I understand that it serves to show us that one can time travel,\nwithout knowing it, by merely walking through certain spaces that\nare somehow set up for this. This makes that very clear. Robert\nmentions Paris, and we see a propeller plane, it's a window into\nUrth's past as Earth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Are we sure it's the past?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If you believe, as I do, that they are the missionaries Robert and Mary \nMoffat (Robert was a former gardener), then I would say it was in the past. \nThis would mean that the Time that Sev is in when he sees the plane is not \nthe Time where he encountered the missionaries. " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T21:11:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hut in the Jungle", "in_reply_to": "<546F8E4F5A224456A6CD4E91FFAEFD6E@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Mar 18, 2009, at 3:42 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nI understand that it serves to show us that one can time travel,\nwithout knowing it, by merely walking through certain spaces that\nare somehow set up for this. This makes that very clear. Robert\nmentions Paris, and we see a propeller plane, it's a window into\nUrth's past as Earth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Are we sure it's the past?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If you believe, as I do, that they are the missionaries Robert and \nMary Moffat (Robert was a former gardener), then I would say it was \nin the past. This would mean that the Time that Sev is in when he \nsees the plane is not the Time where he encountered the missionaries." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What I meant was, can we conclude that Urth is the future of Earth, \nand not its past?\n\n(yeah, I guess we probably can)\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-18T21:27:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hut in the Jungle", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: James Wynn [mailto:crushtv at gmail.com]\nSent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 01:42 PM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) Hut in the Jungle" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I understand that it serves to show us that one can time travel,\nwithout knowing it, by merely walking through certain spaces that\nare somehow set up for this. This makes that very clear. Robert\nmentions Paris, and we see a propeller plane, it's a window into\nUrth's past as Earth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Are we sure it's the past?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am.\nit seems abundantly clear, and even GW's translator note says as much.\nI dismiss outright the suggestion that GW may not = Gene Wolfe." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If you believe, as I do, that they are the missionaries Robert and Mary \nMoffat (Robert was a former gardener), then I would say it was in the past. \nThis would mean that the Time that Sev is in when he sees the plane is not \nthe Time where he encountered the missionaries. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Now that's interesting. I should read up on that I suppose.\n\nmy wife's boss was a Christian missionary in the Panamanian jungle for many years. I should ask him if he knows of them. Dude is awesome. He goes around SF giving out soap and socks to the homeless.\n\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C17885.9080102@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-03-18T22:41:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hut in the Jungle", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That scene is disorienting, isn't it? I completely overlooked it during the various X discussions. Yes, this is our world and our past.\n\nMy guess is that Wolfe is partly just telling/reminding us that his story is a play enacted on a stage. The intrusion indicates a relationship between worlds. Our lives are real; Severian's is shadow-play. It's a clue that the NS is not the OTC, in other words.\n\nBTW, the woman is reading from Deuteronomy 34:1. No version I know." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 6\nDate: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 20:08:33 +0000\nFrom: \"Son of Witz\" \nSubject: (urth) Hut in the Jungle\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"us-ascii\"\n\nOk, so I'm rereading NewSun again.\n\nwhat the hell is going on in the Hut in the Jungle.\n\nI understand that it serves to show us that one can time travel, without knowing it, by merely walking through certain spaces that are somehow set up for this. This makes that very clear. Robert mentions Paris, and we see a propeller plane, it's a window into Urth's past as Earth.\n\nOthers have pointed out that the text the Preceptress is reading is from the Old Testament (or was that NT?). During that scene Agia uses the term Theoanthropos, God-Man, which is usually applied to Christ (any others?)\nIs this to tell us that belief in Christ is part of the world. \nI understand that, as the translation device goes, Theoanthropos could apply to other God-men we haven't met, so it's not a necessary reading, but is that the intent?\n\nInsangoma appears to be refering to the New Sun when he chants:\n\"He comes when the sun is setting,\nSee his feet upon the water!\nTracks of flame across the water\"\n\nand they feel the Tokoloshe, spirits from the future.\n\"Don't you see they are only the results of what we do? They are the spiritis of the future, and we make them ourselves?\"\nIs this just saying that the fallen state of Urth is contemporary Earth's doing, somehow?\n\nand what is Insagoma's story about the nephew fishing?\n\n\n/confused\n~witz\n\n\n\n\n------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C179B9.3010000@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-03-18T22:46:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hut in the Jungle", "in_reply_to": "<49C17885.9080102@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wow, that sounds right. But they hear the mail-plane and know what it is, even though it's from 50 years after their time.\n\n???" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 15:42:32 -0500\nFrom: \"James Wynn\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Hut in the Jungle\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: <546F8E4F5A224456A6CD4E91FFAEFD6E at eMachinePC>\nContent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=\"iso-8859-1\";\n\treply-type=original\n\n\n\nIf you believe, as I do, that they are the missionaries Robert and Mary \nMoffat (Robert was a former gardener), then I would say it was in the past. \nThis would mean that the Time that Sev is in when he sees the plane is not \nthe Time where he encountered the missionaries. \n\n\n\n------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7DC037B975744DDFBBCFC93624826477@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T23:11:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hut in the Jungle", "in_reply_to": "<49C179B9.3010000@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I said: If you believe, as I do, that they are the missionaries Robert and \nMary Moffat (Robert was a former gardener), then I would say it was in the \npast. This would mean that the Time that Sev is in when he sees the plane \nis not the Time where he encountered the missionaries.\nDavid Stockhoff: Wow, that sounds right. But they hear the mail-plane\nand know what it is, even though it's from 50 years after their time." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, that is a problem. They actually intend to catch a ride on that plane \nand get Robert to medical care. Perhaps they are only inspired by the \nMoffats. There is simply no way this could be prior to the 1930s. But not \nlater, I think, than the 1960s. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<44901.31443.qm@web50711.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T23:23:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hut in the Jungle", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "--- On Wed, 3/18/09, Son of Witz wrote:\nI understand that it serves to show us that\none can time travel,\nwithout knowing it, by merely walking through\ncertain spaces that\nare somehow set up for this. This makes that\nvery clear. Robert\nmentions Paris, and we see a propeller plane,\nit's a window into\nUrth's past as Earth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Are we sure it's the past?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I am.\nit seems abundantly clear, and even GW's translator\nnote says as much.\nI dismiss outright the suggestion that GW may not = Gene\nWolfe." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I should remind you of this quotation from James Jordan's\ninterview with that same person, whoever he is (or maybe I\nshouldn't, because I'd like to forget it):\n\n\"JJ: This universe that you set in Briah, or part of it--is that our universe? Or is that a universe that resurrected saints have set up in the world to come as part of the cities that they made?\n\n\"GW: No. I thought of it as a long past universe. Something that we are repeating rather than something that we are.\"\n\nhttp://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze2tmhh/wolfejbj.html\n\nHow \"the era's few extant buildings\" fits into that I can't\nimagine. But if Severian's universe is like ours with small\ndifferences, it would explain the odd dislocations--\"Isangoma\"\nand \"tokoloshe\" from South Africa but \"uakari\" and \"margay\"\nfrom South America and \"hesperorn\" (Cretaceous) and\n\"oreodont\" (Oligocene and Miocene) from North America, and the\nslightly off translation from the Bible. On the other hand,\nAgia's claim that the people in the hut are enchanted people\nof her time would also explain it if the enchantment didn't\ncreate a perfect imitation.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T23:27:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hut in the Jungle", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 4:08 PM, Son of Witz wrote:\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and they feel the Tokoloshe, spirits from the future.\n\"Don't you see they are only the results of what we do? They are the spiritis of the future, and we make them ourselves?\"\nIs this just saying that the fallen state of Urth is contemporary Earth's doing, somehow?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "/confused\n~witz" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've always taken this as being the opposite of what is said in _Sword\nof the Lictor_:\n\n'Dr. Talos whispered, \"Look about you don't you recognize this? It\nis just as he says!\"\n\"What do you mean?\" I whispered in return.\n\"The castle? The monster? The man of learning? I only just thought\nof it. Surely you know that just as the momentous events of the past\ncast their shadows down the ages, so now, when the sun is drawing\ntoward the dark, our own shadows race into the past to trouble\nmankind's dreams.\"\n\"You're mad,\" I said. \"Or joking.\"\n\"Mad?\" Baldanders rumbled. \"You are mad. You with your fantasies\nof theurgy. How they must be laughing at us. They think all of us\nbarbarians... I, who have labored three lifetimes.\"'\n\nI've always loved that line: \"our own shadows race into the past to trouble\nmankind's dreams.\"\n\nThe spirits of the future trouble the dreams of the present, and the\npresent make the results that lie in the future. Which was the\noriginal? Neither, perhaps." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-18T23:33:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hut in the Jungle", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Jerry Friedman [mailto:jerry_friedman at yahoo.com]\nSent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 04:23 PM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) Hut in the Jungle\n\n\n--- On Wed, 3/18/09, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I understand that it serves to show us that\none can time travel,\nwithout knowing it, by merely walking through\ncertain spaces that\nare somehow set up for this. This makes that\nvery clear. Robert\nmentions Paris, and we see a propeller plane,\nit's a window into\nUrth's past as Earth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Are we sure it's the past?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I am.\nit seems abundantly clear, and even GW's translator\nnote says as much.\nI dismiss outright the suggestion that GW may not = Gene\nWolfe." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I should remind you of this quotation from James Jordan's\ninterview with that same person, whoever he is (or maybe I\nshouldn't, because I'd like to forget it):\n\n\"JJ: This universe that you set in Briah, or part of it--is that our universe? Or is that a universe that resurrected saints have set up in the world to come as part of the cities that they made?\n\n\"GW: No. I thought of it as a long past universe. Something that we are repeating rather than something that we are.\"\n\nhttp://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze2tmhh/wolfejbj.html\n\nHow \"the era's few extant buildings\" fits into that I can't\nimagine. But if Severian's universe is like ours with small\ndifferences, it would explain the odd dislocations--\"Isangoma\"\nand \"tokoloshe\" from South Africa but \"uakari\" and \"margay\"\nfrom South America and \"hesperorn\" (Cretaceous) and\n\"oreodont\" (Oligocene and Miocene) from North America, and the\nslightly off translation from the Bible. On the other hand,\nAgia's claim that the people in the hut are enchanted people\nof her time would also explain it if the enchantment didn't\ncreate a perfect imitation.\n\nJerry Friedman" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's interesting.\nthe enchantment idea actually works pretty well, though it can't account for the plan.\nand Long Past works pretty much just as well for me. \n\nI think part of the point is what Gwern said in the next post:\n\"The spirits of the future trouble the dreams of the present, and the\npresent make the results that lie in the future. Which was the\noriginal? Neither, perhaps." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern\"\n\nI'm down with Neither, as it resonates with the Amphisbaena symbol and general time loop intractability.\n\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<154161.74746.qm@web37602.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T04:54:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hut in the Jungle", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gwern, I see what you mean about those being two directions of the same issue. But there's something else going on there, as well.\n\nI always thought that Talos was really talking about myth and stories: he's saying, \"Hey, this is _Frankenstein_, but backwards!\" And the point is that myth shapes us, but we also move away from the original intent of myths so that they are changed and distorted over time.\n\nWhat happens in the hut seems less about myth and story than about reflecting on the consequences of one's actions, but also realizing that who we are may be the consequence of someone else's actions.\n\nBoth are about how, you're right, it's hard to pin down an \"original\" cause or action. But they're dealing with different mechanisms: choices on the one hand and myth/story on the other.\n\nI'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just saying that there may be different ways that they're thinking about the relationship between past and future.\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: Gwern Branwen \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 6:27:57 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Hut in the Jungle\n\nOn Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 4:08 PM, Son of Witz wrote:\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and they feel the Tokoloshe, spirits from the future.\n\"Don't you see they are only the results of what we do? They are the spiritis of the future, and we make them ourselves?\"\nIs this just saying that the fallen state of Urth is contemporary Earth's doing, somehow?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "/confused\n~witz" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've always taken this as being the opposite of what is said in _Sword\nof the Lictor_:\n\n'Dr. Talos whispered, \"Look about you don't you recognize this? It\nis just as he says!\"\n\"What do you mean?\" I whispered in return.\n\"The castle? The monster? The man of learning? I only just thought\nof it. Surely you know that just as the momentous events of the past\ncast their shadows down the ages, so now, when the sun is drawing\ntoward the dark, our own shadows race into the past to trouble\nmankind's dreams.\"\n\"You're mad,\" I said. \"Or joking.\"\n\"Mad?\" Baldanders rumbled. \"You are mad. You with your fantasies\nof theurgy. How they must be laughing at us. They think all of us\nbarbarians... I, who have labored three lifetimes.\"'\n\nI've always loved that line: \"our own shadows race into the past to trouble\nmankind's dreams.\"\n\nThe spirits of the future trouble the dreams of the present, and the\npresent make the results that lie in the future. Which was the\noriginal? Neither, perhaps." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6371.67.142.130.19.1237438959.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-19T05:02:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hut in the Jungle", "in_reply_to": "<154161.74746.qm@web37602.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, Talos (or Wolfe) meant that pretty literally. We discussed this when\nWolfe and met in the mid 80's. John Cramer was also present. Gene and I\nfound that we agreed that time was a certain way, which includes future\nevents affecting the past in certain tricky ways.\n\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gwern, I see what you mean about those being two directions of the same\nissue. But there's something else going on there, as well.\n\nI always thought that Talos was really talking about myth and stories:\nhe's saying, \"Hey, this is _Frankenstein_, but backwards!\" And the point\nis that myth shapes us, but we also move away from the original intent of\nmyths so that they are changed and distorted over time.\n\nWhat happens in the hut seems less about myth and story than about\nreflecting on the consequences of one's actions, but also realizing that\nwho we are may be the consequence of someone else's actions.\n\nBoth are about how, you're right, it's hard to pin down an \"original\"\ncause or action. But they're dealing with different mechanisms: choices on\nthe one hand and myth/story on the other.\n\nI'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just saying that there may be different\nways that they're thinking about the relationship between past and future.\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: Gwern Branwen \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 6:27:57 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Hut in the Jungle\n\nOn Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 4:08 PM, Son of Witz \nwrote:\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "and they feel the Tokoloshe, spirits from the future.\n\"Don't you see they are only the results of what we do? They are the\nspiritis of the future, and we make them ourselves?\"\nIs this just saying that the fallen state of Urth is contemporary\nEarth's doing, somehow?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "/confused\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I've always taken this as being the opposite of what is said in _Sword\nof the Lictor_:\n\n'Dr. Talos whispered, \"Look about you???don't you recognize this? It\nis just as he says!\"\n\"What do you mean?\" I whispered in return.\n\"The castle? The monster? The man of learning? I only just thought\nof it. Surely you know that just as the momentous events of the past\ncast their shadows down the ages, so now, when the sun is drawing\ntoward the dark, our own shadows race into the past to trouble\nmankind's dreams.\"\n\"You're mad,\" I said. \"Or joking.\"\n\"Mad?\" Baldanders rumbled. \"You are mad. You with your fantasies\nof theurgy. How they must be laughing at us. They think all of us\nbarbarians... I, who have labored three lifetimes.\"'\n\nI've always loved that line: \"our own shadows race into the past to\ntrouble\nmankind's dreams.\"\n\nThe spirits of the future trouble the dreams of the present, and the\npresent make the results that lie in the future. Which was the\noriginal? Neither, perhaps.\n\n--\ngwern\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<809930.83824.qm@web37602.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T05:06:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hut in the Jungle", "in_reply_to": "<6371.67.142.130.19.1237438959.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Fair enough. (Although it leaves the Frankenstein reference as just something \"cute\" to throw in there.)\n\nCan you explain how it works here? Is there a particular past event that Talos is referring to that their present-as-future is affecting? Perhaps both? Is he suggesting that they're writing _Frankenstein_ at that moment? heh...\n\n\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: \"brunians at brunians.org\" \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 12:02:39 AM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Hut in the Jungle\n\nNo, Talos (or Wolfe) meant that pretty literally. We discussed this when\nWolfe and met in the mid 80's. John Cramer was also present. Gene and I\nfound that we agreed that time was a certain way, which includes future\nevents affecting the past in certain tricky ways.\n\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gwern, I see what you mean about those being two directions of the same\nissue. But there's something else going on there, as well.\n\nI always thought that Talos was really talking about myth and stories:\nhe's saying, \"Hey, this is _Frankenstein_, but backwards!\" And the point\nis that myth shapes us, but we also move away from the original intent of\nmyths so that they are changed and distorted over time.\n\nWhat happens in the hut seems less about myth and story than about\nreflecting on the consequences of one's actions, but also realizing that\nwho we are may be the consequence of someone else's actions.\n\nBoth are about how, you're right, it's hard to pin down an \"original\"\ncause or action. But they're dealing with different mechanisms: choices on\nthe one hand and myth/story on the other.\n\nI'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just saying that there may be different\nways that they're thinking about the relationship between past and future.\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: Gwern Branwen \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 6:27:57 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Hut in the Jungle\n\nOn Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 4:08 PM, Son of Witz \nwrote:\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "and they feel the Tokoloshe, spirits from the future.\n\"Don't you see they are only the results of what we do? They are the\nspiritis of the future, and we make them ourselves?\"\nIs this just saying that the fallen state of Urth is contemporary\nEarth's doing, somehow?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "/confused\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I've always taken this as being the opposite of what is said in _Sword\nof the Lictor_:\n\n'Dr. Talos whispered, \"Look about you???don't you recognize this? It\nis just as he says!\"\n\"What do you mean?\" I whispered in return.\n\"The castle? The monster? The man of learning? I only just thought\nof it. Surely you know that just as the momentous events of the past\ncast their shadows down the ages, so now, when the sun is drawing\ntoward the dark, our own shadows race into the past to trouble\nmankind's dreams.\"\n\"You're mad,\" I said. \"Or joking.\"\n\"Mad?\" Baldanders rumbled. \"You are mad. You with your fantasies\nof theurgy. How they must be laughing at us. They think all of us\nbarbarians... I, who have labored three lifetimes.\"'\n\nI've always loved that line: \"our own shadows race into the past to\ntrouble\nmankind's dreams.\"\n\nThe spirits of the future trouble the dreams of the present, and the\npresent make the results that lie in the future. Which was the\noriginal? Neither, perhaps.\n\n--\ngwern\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "<10819.67.142.130.19.1237440264.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-19T05:24:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hut in the Jungle", "in_reply_to": "<809930.83824.qm@web37602.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Events along your future timeline can throw echos into the past. For me, I\nhad hallucinations from a very early age (many years before reading\nTBOTNS) that aliens would take me off the planet, and test me somehow, and\nif I failed the test I would be castrated. So you can imagine that when I\nread this theme in TBOTNS I was sort of blown away, and from that point\nwas looking for an opportunity to talk to Wolfe.\n\nAlso our ideas about parallel worlds are very similar, and also similar to\nBorges, who I had not heard of at that time (Gene Wolfe was the first\nperson who mentioned the name Jorge Luis Borges to me).\n\nAnyway, it's late and I don't have huge amounts of energy right now.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Fair enough. (Although it leaves the Frankenstein reference as just\nsomething \"cute\" to throw in there.)\n\nCan you explain how it works here? Is there a particular past event that\nTalos is referring to that their present-as-future is affecting? Perhaps\nboth? Is he suggesting that they're writing _Frankenstein_ at that moment?\nheh...\n\n\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: \"brunians at brunians.org\" \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 12:02:39 AM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Hut in the Jungle\n\nNo, Talos (or Wolfe) meant that pretty literally. We discussed this when\nWolfe and met in the mid 80's. John Cramer was also present. Gene and I\nfound that we agreed that time was a certain way, which includes future\nevents affecting the past in certain tricky ways.\n\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gwern, I see what you mean about those being two directions of the same\nissue. But there's something else going on there, as well.\n\nI always thought that Talos was really talking about myth and stories:\nhe's saying, \"Hey, this is _Frankenstein_, but backwards!\" And the point\nis that myth shapes us, but we also move away from the original intent\nof\nmyths so that they are changed and distorted over time.\n\nWhat happens in the hut seems less about myth and story than about\nreflecting on the consequences of one's actions, but also realizing that\nwho we are may be the consequence of someone else's actions.\n\nBoth are about how, you're right, it's hard to pin down an \"original\"\ncause or action. But they're dealing with different mechanisms: choices\non\nthe one hand and myth/story on the other.\n\nI'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just saying that there may be\ndifferent\nways that they're thinking about the relationship between past and\nfuture.\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: Gwern Branwen " } ] }, { "message_id": "<74682113-1E9F-483C-B997-B939E7CF2516@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-19T05:31:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hut in the Jungle", "in_reply_to": "<809930.83824.qm@web37602.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "no no.\nIt's not just \"cute\". it's fairly profound. it's literal, and it's a \ngood example of why I've been saying the time loop is intractable.\nThings in this story's past have their roots in it's temporal future.\nI know it's a steady refrain from me, but Amphisbaena, Amphisbaena \nAmphisbaena.\n\nHe's suggesting they ARE Frankensein, and the \"particular past event \nthat Talos is referring to\" is the writing of Frankenstein and other \nPromethean stories.\nDizzyingly awesome idea.\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 18, 2009, at 10:06 PM, Craig Brewer wrote:\n\nFair enough. (Although it leaves the Frankenstein reference as just \nsomething \"cute\" to throw in there.)\n\nCan you explain how it works here? Is there a particular past event \nthat Talos is referring to that their present-as-future is \naffecting? Perhaps both? Is he suggesting that they're writing \n_Frankenstein_ at that moment? heh...\n\n\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: \"brunians at brunians.org\" \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 12:02:39 AM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Hut in the Jungle\n\nNo, Talos (or Wolfe) meant that pretty literally. We discussed this \nwhen\nWolfe and met in the mid 80's. John Cramer was also present. Gene \nand I\nfound that we agreed that time was a certain way, which includes \nfuture\nevents affecting the past in certain tricky ways.\n\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gwern, I see what you mean about those being two directions of the \nsame\nissue. But there's something else going on there, as well.\n\nI always thought that Talos was really talking about myth and \nstories:\nhe's saying, \"Hey, this is _Frankenstein_, but backwards!\" And the \npoint\nis that myth shapes us, but we also move away from the original \nintent of\nmyths so that they are changed and distorted over time.\n\nWhat happens in the hut seems less about myth and story than about\nreflecting on the consequences of one's actions, but also realizing \nthat\nwho we are may be the consequence of someone else's actions.\n\nBoth are about how, you're right, it's hard to pin down an \"original\"\ncause or action. But they're dealing with different mechanisms: \nchoices on\nthe one hand and myth/story on the other.\n\nI'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just saying that there may be \ndifferent\nways that they're thinking about the relationship between past and \nfuture.\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: Gwern Branwen " } ] }, { "message_id": "<810925.3733.qm@web37602.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T05:37:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hut in the Jungle", "in_reply_to": "<74682113-1E9F-483C-B997-B939E7CF2516@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dizzying from one perspective. Underwhelming from another. Or I suppose both at once.\n\nIf you're right, then the upshot of this would be that myth (Prometheus) is a retelling \"from the future\" of a very worldly event, Baldanders creating Talos and eventually destroying himself, which comes to have \"mythic\" proportions by being \"projected\" through a past lens darkly. Is that right?\n\nBut why does it have to be \"from the future\"? What does that add to the idea that real events can be blown up into myths that resonate with meaning far from their original context? What's different about a myth's origin being in the future than in the past? (Apart from the coolness factor, I agree.)\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: Son of Witz \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 12:31:05 AM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Hut in the Jungle\n\nno no.\nIt's not just \"cute\". it's fairly profound. it's literal, and it's a good example of why I've been saying the time loop is intractable.\nThings in this story's past have their roots in it's temporal future.\nI know it's a steady refrain from me, but Amphisbaena, Amphisbaena Amphisbaena.\n\nHe's suggesting they ARE Frankensein, and the \"particular past event that Talos is referring to\" is the writing of Frankenstein and other Promethean stories.\nDizzyingly awesome idea.\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 18, 2009, at 10:06 PM, Craig Brewer wrote:\n\nFair enough. (Although it leaves the Frankenstein reference as just something \"cute\" to throw in there.)\n\nCan you explain how it works here? Is there a particular past event that Talos is referring to that their present-as-future is affecting? Perhaps both? Is he suggesting that they're writing _Frankenstein_ at that moment? heh...\n\n\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: \"brunians at brunians.org\" \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 12:02:39 AM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Hut in the Jungle\n\nNo, Talos (or Wolfe) meant that pretty literally. We discussed this when\nWolfe and met in the mid 80's. John Cramer was also present. Gene and I\nfound that we agreed that time was a certain way, which includes future\nevents affecting the past in certain tricky ways.\n\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gwern, I see what you mean about those being two directions of the same\nissue. But there's something else going on there, as well.\n\nI always thought that Talos was really talking about myth and stories:\nhe's saying, \"Hey, this is _Frankenstein_, but backwards!\" And the point\nis that myth shapes us, but we also move away from the original intent of\nmyths so that they are changed and distorted over time.\n\nWhat happens in the hut seems less about myth and story than about\nreflecting on the consequences of one's actions, but also realizing that\nwho we are may be the consequence of someone else's actions.\n\nBoth are about how, you're right, it's hard to pin down an \"original\"\ncause or action. But they're dealing with different mechanisms: choices on\nthe one hand and myth/story on the other.\n\nI'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just saying that there may be different\nways that they're thinking about the relationship between past and future.\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: Gwern Branwen \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 6:27:57 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Hut in the Jungle\n\nOn Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 4:08 PM, Son of Witz \nwrote:\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "and they feel the Tokoloshe, spirits from the future.\n\"Don't you see they are only the results of what we do? They are the\nspiritis of the future, and we make them ourselves?\"\nIs this just saying that the fallen state of Urth is contemporary\nEarth's doing, somehow?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "/confused\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I've always taken this as being the opposite of what is said in _Sword\nof the Lictor_:\n\n'Dr. Talos whispered, \"Look about you???don't you recognize this? It\nis just as he says!\"\n\"What do you mean?\" I whispered in return.\n\"The castle? The monster? The man of learning? I only just thought\nof it. Surely you know that just as the momentous events of the past\ncast their shadows down the ages, so now, when the sun is drawing\ntoward the dark, our own shadows race into the past to trouble\nmankind's dreams.\"\n\"You're mad,\" I said. \"Or joking.\"\n\"Mad?\" Baldanders rumbled. \"You are mad. You with your fantasies\nof theurgy. How they must be laughing at us. They think all of us\nbarbarians... I, who have labored three lifetimes.\"'\n\nI've always loved that line: \"our own shadows race into the past to\ntrouble\nmankind's dreams.\"\n\nThe spirits of the future trouble the dreams of the present, and the\npresent make the results that lie in the future. Which was the\noriginal? Neither, perhaps.\n\n--\ngwern\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "<99BBA103-B736-450A-87BE-2E8FA8AC6BF2@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-19T05:44:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hut in the Jungle", "in_reply_to": "<810925.3733.qm@web37602.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 18, 2009, at 10:37 PM, Craig Brewer wrote:\n\nDizzying from one perspective. Underwhelming from another. Or I \nsuppose both at once." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "that's interesting considering your and my first exchange where you \nargued that the flattening of a hierarchy of the 3 meanings was what \nyou found interesting, and what I found interesting was the depth and \nhierarchy of those 3 meanings." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If you're right, then the upshot of this would be that myth \n(Prometheus) is a retelling \"from the future\" of a very worldly \nevent, Baldanders creating Talos and eventually destroying himself, \nwhich comes to have \"mythic\" proportions by being \"projected\" \nthrough a past lens darkly. Is that right?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, that's what I think is going on." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But why does it have to be \"from the future\"? What does that add to \nthe idea that real events can be blown up into myths that resonate \nwith meaning far from their original context? What's different about \na myth's origin being in the future than in the past? (Apart from \nthe coolness factor, I agree.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It might be Gee Whiz to realize that time isn't uni-directional.\nbut, it does elaborate on that idea to some degree.\nie: take Jesus. Is the second coming a myth that made from \"real \nevents\" blown out up into Myth,\nor is the actual fact of the second coming resonating back through \ntime to create the Myth.\nthis is why I found so much Christic resonance in Severian, as this is \nexactly what's happened to him.\nHe became the new sun, and by crazy circumstances went back and \nplanted the seed of hope for the New Sun.\n\ndunnoh, I find that concept pretty badass and not mundane at all.\n\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "----- Original Message ----\nFrom: Son of Witz \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 12:31:05 AM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Hut in the Jungle\n\nno no.\nIt's not just \"cute\". it's fairly profound. it's literal, and it's a \ngood example of why I've been saying the time loop is intractable.\nThings in this story's past have their roots in it's temporal future.\nI know it's a steady refrain from me, but Amphisbaena, Amphisbaena \nAmphisbaena.\n\nHe's suggesting they ARE Frankensein, and the \"particular past event \nthat Talos is referring to\" is the writing of Frankenstein and other \nPromethean stories.\nDizzyingly awesome idea.\n~witz\n\nOn Mar 18, 2009, at 10:06 PM, Craig Brewer wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Fair enough. (Although it leaves the Frankenstein reference as just \nsomething \"cute\" to throw in there.)\n\nCan you explain how it works here? Is there a particular past event \nthat Talos is referring to that their present-as-future is \naffecting? Perhaps both? Is he suggesting that they're writing \n_Frankenstein_ at that moment? heh...\n\n\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: \"brunians at brunians.org\" \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 12:02:39 AM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Hut in the Jungle\n\nNo, Talos (or Wolfe) meant that pretty literally. We discussed this \nwhen\nWolfe and met in the mid 80's. John Cramer was also present. Gene \nand I\nfound that we agreed that time was a certain way, which includes \nfuture\nevents affecting the past in certain tricky ways.\n\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Gwern, I see what you mean about those being two directions of the \nsame\nissue. But there's something else going on there, as well.\n\nI always thought that Talos was really talking about myth and \nstories:\nhe's saying, \"Hey, this is _Frankenstein_, but backwards!\" And the \npoint\nis that myth shapes us, but we also move away from the original \nintent of\nmyths so that they are changed and distorted over time.\n\nWhat happens in the hut seems less about myth and story than about\nreflecting on the consequences of one's actions, but also \nrealizing that\nwho we are may be the consequence of someone else's actions.\n\nBoth are about how, you're right, it's hard to pin down an \n\"original\"\ncause or action. But they're dealing with different mechanisms: \nchoices on\nthe one hand and myth/story on the other.\n\nI'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just saying that there may be \ndifferent\nways that they're thinking about the relationship between past and \nfuture.\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: Gwern Branwen " } ] }, { "message_id": "<273795.34836.qm@web50708.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T05:44:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hut in the Jungle", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "--- On Wed, 3/18/09, Son of Witz wrote:\nFrom: Jerry Friedman [mailto:jerry_friedman at yahoo.com]\n--- On Wed, 3/18/09, Son of Witz\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Are we sure it's the past?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I am.\nit seems abundantly clear, and even GW's translator\nnote says as much.\nI dismiss outright the suggestion that GW may not\n= Gene Wolfe." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I should remind you of this quotation from James\nJordan's\ninterview with that same person, whoever he is (or\nmaybe I shouldn't, because I'd like to forget it):\n\n\"JJ: This universe that you set in Briah, or part\nof it--is that our universe? Or is that a universe that\nresurrected saints have set up in the world to come as part\nof the cities that they made?\n\n\"GW: No. I thought of it as a long past universe." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Something that we are repeating rather than something that\nwe are.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze2tmhh/wolfejbj.html\n\nHow \"the era's few extant buildings\" fits\ninto that I can't imagine." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's interesting.\nthe enchantment idea actually works pretty well, though it\ncan't account for the plan." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What plan?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and Long Past works pretty much just as well for me. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\n\nBut I also can't fit the Long Past picture in with \"a\ntongue that has not yet achieved existence\" or \"yet\nundiscovered concepts\". Could this mean that we\nhaven't yet reached the time in our universe that\ncorresponds with Severian's time in his earlier\nuniverse?\n\nOn the subject of one time influencing an earlier time,\nI think Christian thinkers have said or speculated that\nthe Incarnation had consequences in its past. And it's\nno harder, possibly easier to accept than time travel.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1CDAAE8D-760F-44A9-A7CB-7822157F3E76@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-19T05:51:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hut in the Jungle", "in_reply_to": "<273795.34836.qm@web50708.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 18, 2009, at 10:44 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nOn the subject of one time influencing an earlier time,\nI think Christian thinkers have said or speculated that\nthe Incarnation had consequences in its past. And it's\nno harder, possibly easier to accept than time travel." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "See Baldandars/Frankenstein discussion in this thread." } ] }, { "message_id": "<506324.69896.qm@web37608.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T05:52:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hut in the Jungle", "in_reply_to": "<99BBA103-B736-450A-87BE-2E8FA8AC6BF2@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or another way to put it would be that some myths are true only in the future. They make themselves true by projecting pseudo-false stories about themselves in the past which help bring about their realization. That would be Severian, yes?\n\nAnd on that reading, Talos realizing that his situation is what Prometheus was really all about is significant in the text because it's a smaller example of your Amphisbaena where the REAL meaningful Amphisbaena's are the cosmic myths which are lies (in the past) that make themselves become true (in the future).\n\nIs that right? If so, then I can retract my underwhelming.\n\nOh, and: Gee Whiz. Gene Wolfe. Coincidence?\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: Son of Witz \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 12:44:41 AM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Hut in the Jungle" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 18, 2009, at 10:37 PM, Craig Brewer wrote:\n\nDizzying from one perspective. Underwhelming from another. Or I suppose both at once." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "that's interesting considering your and my first exchange where you argued that the flattening of a hierarchy of the 3 meanings was what you found interesting, and what I found interesting was the depth and hierarchy of those 3 meanings." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If you're right, then the upshot of this would be that myth (Prometheus) is a retelling \"from the future\" of a very worldly event, Baldanders creating Talos and eventually destroying himself, which comes to have \"mythic\" proportions by being \"projected\" through a past lens darkly. Is that right?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, that's what I think is going on." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But why does it have to be \"from the future\"? What does that add to the idea that real events can be blown up into myths that resonate with meaning far from their original context? What's different about a myth's origin being in the future than in the past? (Apart from the coolness factor, I agree.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It might be Gee Whiz to realize that time isn't uni-directional.\nbut, it does elaborate on that idea to some degree.\nie: take Jesus. Is the second coming a myth that made from \"real events\" blown out up into Myth,\nor is the actual fact of the second coming resonating back through time to create the Myth.\nthis is why I found so much Christic resonance in Severian, as this is exactly what's happened to him.\nHe became the new sun, and by crazy circumstances went back and planted the seed of hope for the New Sun.\n\ndunnoh, I find that concept pretty badass and not mundane at all.\n\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "----- Original Message ----\nFrom: Son of Witz \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 12:31:05 AM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Hut in the Jungle\n\nno no.\nIt's not just \"cute\". it's fairly profound. it's literal, and it's a good example of why I've been saying the time loop is intractable.\nThings in this story's past have their roots in it's temporal future.\nI know it's a steady refrain from me, but Amphisbaena, Amphisbaena Amphisbaena.\n\nHe's suggesting they ARE Frankensein, and the \"particular past event that Talos is referring to\" is the writing of Frankenstein and other Promethean stories.\nDizzyingly awesome idea.\n~witz\n\nOn Mar 18, 2009, at 10:06 PM, Craig Brewer wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Fair enough. (Although it leaves the Frankenstein reference as just something \"cute\" to throw in there.)\n\nCan you explain how it works here? Is there a particular past event that Talos is referring to that their present-as-future is affecting? Perhaps both? Is he suggesting that they're writing _Frankenstein_ at that moment? heh...\n\n\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: \"brunians at brunians.org\" \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 12:02:39 AM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Hut in the Jungle\n\nNo, Talos (or Wolfe) meant that pretty literally. We discussed this when\nWolfe and met in the mid 80's. John Cramer was also present. Gene and I\nfound that we agreed that time was a certain way, which includes future\nevents affecting the past in certain tricky ways.\n\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Gwern, I see what you mean about those being two directions of the same\nissue. But there's something else going on there, as well.\n\nI always thought that Talos was really talking about myth and stories:\nhe's saying, \"Hey, this is _Frankenstein_, but backwards!\" And the point\nis that myth shapes us, but we also move away from the original intent of\nmyths so that they are changed and distorted over time.\n\nWhat happens in the hut seems less about myth and story than about\nreflecting on the consequences of one's actions, but also realizing that\nwho we are may be the consequence of someone else's actions.\n\nBoth are about how, you're right, it's hard to pin down an \"original\"\ncause or action. But they're dealing with different mechanisms: choices on\nthe one hand and myth/story on the other.\n\nI'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just saying that there may be different\nways that they're thinking about the relationship between past and future.\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: Gwern Branwen \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 6:27:57 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Hut in the Jungle\n\nOn Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 4:08 PM, Son of Witz \nwrote:\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "and they feel the Tokoloshe, spirits from the future.\n\"Don't you see they are only the results of what we do? They are the\nspiritis of the future, and we make them ourselves?\"\nIs this just saying that the fallen state of Urth is contemporary\nEarth's doing, somehow?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "/confused\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I've always taken this as being the opposite of what is said in _Sword\nof the Lictor_:\n\n'Dr. Talos whispered, \"Look about you???don't you recognize this? It\nis just as he says!\"\n\"What do you mean?\" I whispered in return.\n\"The castle? The monster? The man of learning? I only just thought\nof it. Surely you know that just as the momentous events of the past\ncast their shadows down the ages, so now, when the sun is drawing\ntoward the dark, our own shadows race into the past to trouble\nmankind's dreams.\"\n\"You're mad,\" I said. \"Or joking.\"\n\"Mad?\" Baldanders rumbled. \"You are mad. You with your fantasies\nof theurgy. How they must be laughing at us. They think all of us\nbarbarians... I, who have labored three lifetimes.\"'\n\nI've always loved that line: \"our own shadows race into the past to\ntrouble\nmankind's dreams.\"\n\nThe spirits of the future trouble the dreams of the present, and the\npresent make the results that lie in the future. Which was the\noriginal? Neither, perhaps.\n\n--\ngwern\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "<23285.39593.qm@web50708.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T05:57:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hut in the Jungle", "in_reply_to": "<1CDAAE8D-760F-44A9-A7CB-7822157F3E76@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Wed, 3/18/09, Son of Witz wrote:\nOn Mar 18, 2009, at 10:44 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On the subject of one time influencing an earlier\ntime,\nI think Christian thinkers have said or speculated\nthat\nthe Incarnation had consequences in its past. And\nit's\nno harder, possibly easier to accept than time travel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "See Baldandars/Frankenstein discussion in this thread." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's what I was talking about. My comment on Jesus\ncaused you to make a similar comment a little earlier.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<67DBF461-1669-418B-B55E-70251CF8027F@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-19T06:16:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hut in the Jungle", "in_reply_to": "<23285.39593.qm@web50708.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 18, 2009, at 10:57 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\n\n--- On Wed, 3/18/09, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Mar 18, 2009, at 10:44 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On the subject of one time influencing an earlier time,\nI think Christian thinkers have said or speculated that\nthe Incarnation had consequences in its past. And it's\nno harder, possibly easier to accept than time travel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "See Baldandars/Frankenstein discussion in this thread." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's what I was talking about. My comment on Jesus\ncaused you to make a similar comment a little earlier.\n\nJerry Friedman" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "laughing out loud. good work Jerry." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 18, 2009, at 10:52 PM, Craig Brewer wrote:\n\nOr another way to put it would be that some myths are true only in \nthe future. They make themselves true by projecting pseudo-false \nstories about themselves in the past which help bring about their \nrealization. That would be Severian, yes?\n\nAnd on that reading, Talos realizing that his situation is what \nPrometheus was really all about is significant in the text because \nit's a smaller example of your Amphisbaena where the REAL meaningful \nAmphisbaena's are the cosmic myths which are lies (in the past) that \nmake themselves become true (in the future).\n\nIs that right? If so, then I can retract my underwhelming.\n\nOh, and: Gee Whiz. Gene Wolfe. Coincidence?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes on the first paragraph. absolutely.\nNot Sure on the second paragraph about the \"real meaningful \nAmphisbaena\" I haven't completely grokked the explanation about the \ndead head eating the living head and the sustenance, or was it the \nother way around. Whichever it was, I would probably weight them \nequally.\nOn the third, retract away.\nOn the fourth, LOL.\n\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1319.67.142.130.19.1237443540.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-19T06:19:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hut in the Jungle", "in_reply_to": "<273795.34836.qm@web50708.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On the subject of one time influencing an earlier time,\nI think Christian thinkers have said or speculated that\nthe Incarnation had consequences in its past. And it's\nno harder, possibly easier to accept than time travel." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There are multiple time dimensions.\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2009-03-19T07:26:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hut in the Jungle", "in_reply_to": "<809930.83824.qm@web37602.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, 18 Mar 2009, Craig Brewer wrote:\nCan you explain how it works here? Is there a particular past event that \nTalos is referring to that their present-as-future is affecting? Perhaps \nboth? Is he suggesting that they're writing _Frankenstein_ at that \nmoment? heh..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I read it as a nod to _Childhood's End_\n\nAnd I thought the missionaries are \"modern day\" individuals who are \n\"chant-caught\" reenactors.\n\nDavid Duffy." } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C23010.8040606@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T11:44:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hut in the Jungle", "in_reply_to": "<74682113-1E9F-483C-B997-B939E7CF2516@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Son of Witz wrote:\nno no.\nIt's not just \"cute\". it's fairly profound. it's literal, and it's a \ngood example of why I've been saying the time loop is intractable.\nThings in this story's past have their roots in it's temporal future.\nI know it's a steady refrain from me, but Amphisbaena, Amphisbaena \nAmphisbaena." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And Clarke and Teilhard De Chardin are riding it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He's suggesting they ARE Frankensein, and the \"particular past event \nthat Talos is referring to\" is the writing of Frankenstein and other \nPromethean stories.\nDizzyingly awesome idea." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To me it is most interesting for the implication that some adaptation of \n_FRANKENSTEIN_ survives to be popular enough that Dr Talos expects \nSeverian to be familiar with it." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C2308F.4060501@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T11:46:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hut in the Jungle", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Duffy wrote:\nOn Wed, 18 Mar 2009, Craig Brewer wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Can you explain how it works here? Is there a particular past event \nthat Talos is referring to that their present-as-future is affecting? \nPerhaps both? Is he suggesting that they're writing _Frankenstein_ at \nthat moment? heh..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I read it as a nod to _Childhood's End_\n\nAnd I thought the missionaries are \"modern day\" individuals who are \n\"chant-caught\" reenactors." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Then what is the airplane?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C232D8.7080804@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-03-19T11:56:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hut in the Jungle", "in_reply_to": "<49C2308F.4060501@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As I see it, the idea flows logically from the concept that all time exists, or that there is a no-time or over-time (Eternity, Akal, Empyrean) from which all time can be accessed. This is a basic aspect of the Catholic God, usually expressed less mechanically of course.\n\nYou could perhaps say the Increate is the medium through which large or iconic events send their ripples and echoes and eddies forward and backward. As long as there is no actual time travel, it doesn't pose problems---and in BotNS there is also time travel anyway." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 22:37:14 -0700 (PDT)\nFrom: Craig Brewer \nSubject: Re: (urth) Hut in the Jungle\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: <810925.3733.qm at web37602.mail.mud.yahoo.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8\n\n\nDizzying from one perspective. Underwhelming from another. Or I suppose both at once.\n\nIf you're right, then the upshot of this would be that myth (Prometheus) is a retelling \"from the future\" of a very worldly event, Baldanders creating Talos and eventually destroying himself, which comes to have \"mythic\" proportions by being \"projected\" through a past lens darkly. Is that right?\n\nBut why does it have to be \"from the future\"? What does that add to the idea that real events can be blown up into myths that resonate with meaning far from their original context? What's different about a myth's origin being in the future than in the past? (Apart from the coolness factor, I agree.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C23459.1070400@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-03-19T12:02:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hut in the Jungle", "in_reply_to": "<49C232D8.7080804@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right. Which is why Wolfe is always using mythic material. He doesn't regard it as inadequate in any way, merely limited in its truth vs the real Truth, which is eternal. \n\nMyths are fully human responses to a perception of the divine, and thus contain truth. Whether they were once true (Tolkien's approach) or they become true (Wolfe's, apparently) is a matter of perspective." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 6\nDate: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 22:52:43 -0700 (PDT)\nFrom: Craig Brewer \nSubject: Re: (urth) Hut in the Jungle" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C235D7.3050303@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-03-19T12:08:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hut in the Jungle", "in_reply_to": "<49C23459.1070400@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Possibly. It does explain things. But I just can't quite accept it. Severian's realization that he and Agia are seen as ghosts is just too wonderfully creepy and disorienting to not contain truth.\n\nStill, since Wolfe gave us clues pointing to the Moffats, we may be forced to assume that he also gave us clues that the missionaries are NOT the Moffats, and work from there.\n\nAaggghhh!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 6\nDate: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 17:26:31 +1000 (EST)\nFrom: David Duffy \nSubject: Re: (urth) Hut in the Jungle\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed\n\nOn Wed, 18 Mar 2009, Craig Brewer wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Can you explain how it works here? Is there a particular past event that \nTalos is referring to that their present-as-future is affecting? Perhaps \nboth? Is he suggesting that they're writing _Frankenstein_ at that \nmoment? heh..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n\nI read it as a nod to _Childhood's End_\n\nAnd I thought the missionaries are \"modern day\" individuals who are \n\"chant-caught\" reenactors.\n\nDavid Duffy.\n\n\n------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5114.67.142.130.34.1237464764.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-19T12:12:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hut in the Jungle", "in_reply_to": "<49C232D8.7080804@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There are multiple time dimensions.\n\nThe level of the World that we inhabit includes three spacelike and one\ntimelike dimension. This is a selection (sort of) from the 'next level up'\nwhich includes four spacelike dimensions, two timelike dimensions (one of\nwhich is parallel to 'our' time and a third timelike dimension which\nstands to the creatures of the 'next level up' as our time dimension does\nto us.\n\nI derive this from my work with the well known 'Enochian' system of\nmagick, and as I recall Wolfe expressed general agreement with it when we\ndiscussed it.\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As I see it, the idea flows logically from the concept that all time\nexists, or that there is a no-time or over-time (Eternity, Akal, Empyrean)\nfrom which all time can be accessed. This is a basic aspect of the\nCatholic God, usually expressed less mechanically of course.\n\nYou could perhaps say the Increate is the medium through which large or\niconic events send their ripples and echoes and eddies forward and\nbackward. As long as there is no actual time travel, it doesn't pose\nproblems---and in BotNS there is also time travel anyway.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 22:37:14 -0700 (PDT)\nFrom: Craig Brewer \nSubject: Re: (urth) Hut in the Jungle\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: <810925.3733.qm at web37602.mail.mud.yahoo.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8\n\n\nDizzying from one perspective. Underwhelming from another. Or I suppose\nboth at once.\n\nIf you're right, then the upshot of this would be that myth (Prometheus)\nis a retelling \"from the future\" of a very worldly event, Baldanders\ncreating Talos and eventually destroying himself, which comes to have\n\"mythic\" proportions by being \"projected\" through a past lens darkly. Is\nthat right?\n\nBut why does it have to be \"from the future\"? What does that add to the\nidea that real events can be blown up into myths that resonate with\nmeaning far from their original context? What's different about a myth's\norigin being in the future than in the past? (Apart from the coolness\nfactor, I agree.)\n\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 090318-0, 03/18/2009\nTested on: 3/19/2009 7:56:09 AM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T12:33:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hut in the Jungle", "in_reply_to": "<6371.67.142.130.19.1237438959.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 1:02 AM, wrote:\nNo, Talos (or Wolfe) meant that pretty literally. We discussed this when\nWolfe and met in the mid 80's. John Cramer was also present. Gene and I\nfound that we agreed that time was a certain way, which includes future\nevents affecting the past in certain tricky ways." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's interesting. As pleased as I am to have my reading validated\nlike that, I'm a little disturbed that it had to be by non-public\nsources! Was this discussion ever written up or summarized?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C24425.6030408@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T13:09:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hut in the Jungle", "in_reply_to": "<5114.67.142.130.34.1237464764.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nThere are multiple time dimensions.\n\nThe level of the World that we inhabit includes three spacelike and one\ntimelike dimension. This is a selection (sort of) from the 'next level up'\nwhich includes four spacelike dimensions, two timelike dimensions (one of\nwhich is parallel to 'our' time and a third timelike dimension which\nstands to the creatures of the 'next level up' as our time dimension does\nto us." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're missing a closing parenthesis whose placement could drastically \ninfluence the way this second sentence would be parsed." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C254F8.1060509@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-03-19T14:21:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hut in the Jungle", "in_reply_to": "<49C24425.6030408@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Are you sure he wasn't humoring you?\n\nI kid. Sure, that's plausible. I tend to think it's unnecessarily complex for NS/LS/SS, but then see Wolfe's diagram of the Wizard Knight uni/multiverse." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 10\nDate: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 08:12:44 -0400 (EDT)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nSubject: Re: (urth) Hut in the Jungle\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: <5114.67.142.130.34.1237464764.squirrel at brunians.org>\nContent-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1\n\nThere are multiple time dimensions.\n\nThe level of the World that we inhabit includes three spacelike and one\ntimelike dimension. This is a selection (sort of) from the 'next level up'\nwhich includes four spacelike dimensions, two timelike dimensions (one of\nwhich is parallel to 'our' time and a third timelike dimension which\nstands to the creatures of the 'next level up' as our time dimension does\nto us.\n\nI derive this from my work with the well known 'Enochian' system of\nmagick, and as I recall Wolfe expressed general agreement with it when we\ndiscussed it." } ] }, { "message_id": "<5577.67.142.130.33.1237474451.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-19T14:54:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hut in the Jungle", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 1:02 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "No, Talos (or Wolfe) meant that pretty literally. We discussed this when\nWolfe and met in the mid 80's. John Cramer was also present. Gene and I\nfound that we agreed that time was a certain way, which includes future\nevents affecting the past in certain tricky ways." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's interesting. As pleased as I am to have my reading validated\nlike that, I'm a little disturbed that it had to be by non-public\nsources! Was this discussion ever written up or summarized?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "These three guys got together at an SF convention and were hanging around\ntalking. No one realized it was an historic moment (well, I sort of did,\nbut I didn't figure that anyone would ever know about it, and I would not\nhave wanted to try to convince someone else: he would have thought that I\nwas a babbling science fiction fan).\n\nI have discussed my encounters with Wolfe on this list on more than one\noccasion, and I have discussed them in conversation. That's about as\nwritten up as it gets so far.\n\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<12959.67.142.130.33.1237475011.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-19T15:03:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hut in the Jungle", "in_reply_to": "<49C24425.6030408@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There are multiple time dimensions." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The level of the World that we inhabit includes three spacelike and one\ntimelike dimension. This is a selection (sort of) from the 'next level\nup' which includes four spacelike dimensions, two timelike dimensions\n(one of which is parallel to 'our' time) and a third timelike dimension\nwhich stands to the creatures of the 'next level up' as our time\ndimension does to us." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You're missing a closing parenthesis whose placement could drastically\ninfluence the way this second sentence would be parsed." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, thank you.\n\nI believe I have fixed it above.\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<13060.67.142.130.33.1237475656.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-19T15:14:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hut in the Jungle", "in_reply_to": "<49C254F8.1060509@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He is one of three or four people who I can have a conversation with on\nthis level. The idea that he was humoring me never crossed my mind. I have\nwatched him humor people (and you can too, if you show up at any talk he\ngives, there are always one or two in the audience who positively require\nit).\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Are you sure he wasn't humoring you?\n\nI kid. Sure, that's plausible. I tend to think it's unnecessarily complex\nfor NS/LS/SS, but then see Wolfe's diagram of the Wizard Knight\nuni/multiverse.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 10\nDate: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 08:12:44 -0400 (EDT)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nSubject: Re: (urth) Hut in the Jungle\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: <5114.67.142.130.34.1237464764.squirrel at brunians.org>\nContent-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1\n\nThere are multiple time dimensions.\n\nThe level of the World that we inhabit includes three spacelike and one\ntimelike dimension. This is a selection (sort of) from the 'next level up'\nwhich includes four spacelike dimensions, two timelike dimensions (one of\nwhich is parallel to 'our' time and a third timelike dimension which\nstands to the creatures of the 'next level up' as our time dimension does\nto us.\n\nI derive this from my work with the well known 'Enochian' system of\nmagick, and as I recall Wolfe expressed general agreement with it when we\ndiscussed it.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 090318-0, 03/18/2009\nTested on: 3/19/2009 10:21:46 AM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<273409710903190919v21a24e39na4d42618ab671e9a@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T16:19:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hut in the Jungle", "in_reply_to": "<13060.67.142.130.33.1237475656.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Brunians,\nThere is a very similar system laid out by G. I. Gurdjieff, an Armenian\nmystic. He lays out a very cogent and beautiful cosmology which resonates\nnearly exactly with what you are saying, while relating it to a much arger\ncosmology as well, relating to the octave, and trinities. You might find it\ninteresting. Ever come across his stuff?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 8:14 AM, wrote:\n\nHe is one of three or four people who I can have a conversation with on\nthis level. The idea that he was humoring me never crossed my mind. I have\nwatched him humor people (and you can too, if you show up at any talk he\ngives, there are always one or two in the audience who positively require\nit).\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Are you sure he wasn't humoring you?\n\nI kid. Sure, that's plausible. I tend to think it's unnecessarily complex\nfor NS/LS/SS, but then see Wolfe's diagram of the Wizard Knight\nuni/multiverse.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 10\nDate: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 08:12:44 -0400 (EDT)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nSubject: Re: (urth) Hut in the Jungle\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: <5114.67.142.130.34.1237464764.squirrel at brunians.org>\nContent-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1\n\nThere are multiple time dimensions.\n\nThe level of the World that we inhabit includes three spacelike and one\ntimelike dimension. This is a selection (sort of) from the 'next level\nup'\nwhich includes four spacelike dimensions, two timelike dimensions (one of\nwhich is parallel to 'our' time and a third timelike dimension which\nstands to the creatures of the 'next level up' as our time dimension does\nto us.\n\nI derive this from my work with the well known 'Enochian' system of\nmagick, and as I recall Wolfe expressed general agreement with it when we\ndiscussed it.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 090318-0, 03/18/2009\nTested on: 3/19/2009 10:21:46 AM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<10396.67.142.130.40.1237483384.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-19T17:23:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hut in the Jungle", "in_reply_to": "<273409710903190919v21a24e39na4d42618ab671e9a@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know much about Gurdjieff's system. I am aware of it, I haven't\ndone any work with it, I don't remember too many details.\n\nI have been meaning to read \"Beelzebub's Tales\" for some time.\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There is a very similar system laid out by G. I. Gurdjieff, an Armenian\nmystic. He lays out a very cogent and beautiful cosmology which resonates\nnearly exactly with what you are saying, while relating it to a much arger\ncosmology as well, relating to the octave, and trinities. You might find\nit\ninteresting. Ever come across his stuff?\n\nOn Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 8:14 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "He is one of three or four people who I can have a conversation with on\nthis level. The idea that he was humoring me never crossed my mind. I\nhave\nwatched him humor people (and you can too, if you show up at any talk he\ngives, there are always one or two in the audience who positively\nrequire\nit).\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Are you sure he wasn't humoring you?\n\nI kid. Sure, that's plausible. I tend to think it's unnecessarily\ncomplex\nfor NS/LS/SS, but then see Wolfe's diagram of the Wizard Knight\nuni/multiverse.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 10\nDate: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 08:12:44 -0400 (EDT)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nSubject: Re: (urth) Hut in the Jungle\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: <5114.67.142.130.34.1237464764.squirrel at brunians.org>\nContent-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1\n\nThere are multiple time dimensions.\n\nThe level of the World that we inhabit includes three spacelike and\none\ntimelike dimension. This is a selection (sort of) from the 'next level\nup'\nwhich includes four spacelike dimensions, two timelike dimensions (one\nof\nwhich is parallel to 'our' time and a third timelike dimension which\nstands to the creatures of the 'next level up' as our time dimension\ndoes\nto us.\n\nI derive this from my work with the well known 'Enochian' system of\nmagick, and as I recall Wolfe expressed general agreement with it when\nwe\ndiscussed it.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 090318-0, 03/18/2009\nTested on: 3/19/2009 10:21:46 AM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<273409710903191026y12271d7fvaea9254f8fc047a3@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T17:26:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hut in the Jungle", "in_reply_to": "<10396.67.142.130.40.1237483384.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Beelzebub's Tales is a true Golden Book, though not necessarily the best\nplace to start. I think \"In Search of the Miraculous\" is a good place to\nstart and ponder, and then dive into the hyper-density of Beelzebub's Tales.\n\nIf Book of the New Sun hides it's meanings for future readings, Beelzebub's\ntales buries it's meanings for future generations. It is so fraking dense,\nand astutely profound." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 10:23 AM, wrote:\nI don't know much about Gurdjieff's system. I am aware of it, I haven't\ndone any work with it, I don't remember too many details.\n\nI have been meaning to read \"Beelzebub's Tales\" for some time.\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There is a very similar system laid out by G. I. Gurdjieff, an Armenian\nmystic. He lays out a very cogent and beautiful cosmology which\nresonates\nnearly exactly with what you are saying, while relating it to a much\narger\ncosmology as well, relating to the octave, and trinities. You might find\nit\ninteresting. Ever come across his stuff?\n\nOn Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 8:14 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "He is one of three or four people who I can have a conversation with on\nthis level. The idea that he was humoring me never crossed my mind. I\nhave\nwatched him humor people (and you can too, if you show up at any talk he\ngives, there are always one or two in the audience who positively\nrequire\nit).\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Are you sure he wasn't humoring you?\n\nI kid. Sure, that's plausible. I tend to think it's unnecessarily\ncomplex\nfor NS/LS/SS, but then see Wolfe's diagram of the Wizard Knight\nuni/multiverse.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 10\nDate: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 08:12:44 -0400 (EDT)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nSubject: Re: (urth) Hut in the Jungle\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: <5114.67.142.130.34.1237464764.squirrel at brunians.org>\nContent-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1\n\nThere are multiple time dimensions.\n\nThe level of the World that we inhabit includes three spacelike and\none\ntimelike dimension. This is a selection (sort of) from the 'next level\nup'\nwhich includes four spacelike dimensions, two timelike dimensions (one\nof\nwhich is parallel to 'our' time and a third timelike dimension which\nstands to the creatures of the 'next level up' as our time dimension\ndoes\nto us.\n\nI derive this from my work with the well known 'Enochian' system of\nmagick, and as I recall Wolfe expressed general agreement with it when\nwe\ndiscussed it.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 090318-0, 03/18/2009\nTested on: 3/19/2009 10:21:46 AM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8550.67.142.130.40.1237484058.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-19T17:34:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hut in the Jungle", "in_reply_to": "<273409710903191026y12271d7fvaea9254f8fc047a3@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Beelzebub's Tales is a true Golden Book, though not necessarily the best\nplace to start. I think \"In Search of the Miraculous\" is a good place to\nstart and ponder, and then dive into the hyper-density of Beelzebub's\nTales." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If Book of the New Sun hides it's meanings for future readings,\nBeelzebub's tales buries it's meanings for future generations. It is so\nfraking dense, and astutely profound." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "May be.\n\nYou are not selling it well.\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 10:23 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't know much about Gurdjieff's system. I am aware of it, I haven't\ndone any work with it, I don't remember too many details.\n\nI have been meaning to read \"Beelzebub's Tales\" for some time.\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "There is a very similar system laid out by G. I. Gurdjieff, an\nArmenian\nmystic. He lays out a very cogent and beautiful cosmology which\nresonates\nnearly exactly with what you are saying, while relating it to a much\narger\ncosmology as well, relating to the octave, and trinities. You might\nfind\nit\ninteresting. Ever come across his stuff?\n\nOn Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 8:14 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "He is one of three or four people who I can have a conversation with\non\nthis level. The idea that he was humoring me never crossed my mind. I\nhave\nwatched him humor people (and you can too, if you show up at any talk\nhe\ngives, there are always one or two in the audience who positively\nrequire\nit).\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Are you sure he wasn't humoring you?\n\nI kid. Sure, that's plausible. I tend to think it's unnecessarily\ncomplex\nfor NS/LS/SS, but then see Wolfe's diagram of the Wizard Knight\nuni/multiverse.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 10\nDate: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 08:12:44 -0400 (EDT)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nSubject: Re: (urth) Hut in the Jungle" } ] }, { "message_id": "<273409710903191038o2c88a3afpbc162fbb6b4075e1@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T17:38:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hut in the Jungle", "in_reply_to": "<8550.67.142.130.40.1237484058.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah. Well, my intent is not to sell anything. I saw something you said that\nmade me think you might find it of interest. That's all.\n\nYou can forget I mentioned it for all that it matters to me.\n\nHave a blessed day." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 10:34 AM, wrote:\nBeelzebub's Tales is a true Golden Book, though not necessarily the best\nplace to start. I think \"In Search of the Miraculous\" is a good place to\nstart and ponder, and then dive into the hyper-density of Beelzebub's\nTales." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If Book of the New Sun hides it's meanings for future readings,\nBeelzebub's tales buries it's meanings for future generations. It is so\nfraking dense, and astutely profound." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "May be.\n\nYou are not selling it well.\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 10:23 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I don't know much about Gurdjieff's system. I am aware of it, I haven't\ndone any work with it, I don't remember too many details.\n\nI have been meaning to read \"Beelzebub's Tales\" for some time.\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "There is a very similar system laid out by G. I. Gurdjieff, an\nArmenian\nmystic. He lays out a very cogent and beautiful cosmology which\nresonates\nnearly exactly with what you are saying, while relating it to a much\narger\ncosmology as well, relating to the octave, and trinities. You might\nfind\nit\ninteresting. Ever come across his stuff?\n\nOn Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 8:14 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "He is one of three or four people who I can have a conversation with\non\nthis level. The idea that he was humoring me never crossed my mind. I\nhave\nwatched him humor people (and you can too, if you show up at any talk\nhe\ngives, there are always one or two in the audience who positively\nrequire\nit).\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Are you sure he wasn't humoring you?\n\nI kid. Sure, that's plausible. I tend to think it's unnecessarily\ncomplex\nfor NS/LS/SS, but then see Wolfe's diagram of the Wizard Knight\nuni/multiverse.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 10\nDate: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 08:12:44 -0400 (EDT)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nSubject: Re: (urth) Hut in the Jungle" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4035.67.142.130.40.1237486600.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-19T18:16:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hut in the Jungle", "in_reply_to": "<273409710903191038o2c88a3afpbc162fbb6b4075e1@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "If Book of the New Sun hides it's meanings for future readings,\nBeelzebub's tales buries it's meanings for future generations. It is\nso fraking dense, and astutely profound." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "May be." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You are not selling it well." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ah. Well, my intent is not to sell anything." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I feel I might have offended you, and I feel bad about this. I certainly\ndid not mean to do so." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " I saw something you said\nthat made me think you might find it of interest." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You are probably absolutely right. I do intend to check it out, and it is\nbecause you recommend it now that I am intending to check it out now.\nOtherwise it may have taken years more." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " That's all." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it is enough, and since I was not apparently clear earlier, thank\nyou very much for your recommendation.\n\nThe thing is, truth be told, that I have always had an irrational - I\nadmit that it is totally irrational and also mostly based upon ignorance -\naversion to GI Gurdjieff. I have been aware that it is irrational for some\ntime, and meaning to get over it, but haven't so far. Gurus leave me cold.\nMy teachers have mostly emphasized their ignorance and untrustworthiness,\nas I myself try to do, if I have ever felt that people are treating me as\na guru which has (God help me) happened from time to time.\n\nIt so happens that I will be near a big bookstore later today and I will\nsee what they have.\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-31T04:05:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hut in the Jungle", "in_reply_to": "<4035.67.142.130.40.1237486600.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "FWIW- \n \nI see the Jungle Hut as a clear example of a time travel device as most specifically described for the Last House: a labyrinthine entranceway leading to a vertical structure. We see this pattern repeated in the towers around the Atrium of Time, Ultan's Library and probably in the Naviscaput's lair. Higher levels are in the future and lower levels are in the past (this helps explain Valeria and the Path of Air).\n \nThus, the earth that we see at the top of the ladder of the Jungle Hut is in Urth's future. This is supported by the textual and Wolfe interview clues which suggest Urth is the analog of Earth which exists in a previous universal iteration. And why Urth has Severian while Earth has Christ, etc.\n \nAnd I think Isangoma is a Father Inire incarnation, like most of the twisted old monkey-like guys we find; Hephaestus analog that he is. Jungle Hut allows Inire access to some earth artifacts which make it to Urth like a picture of the moon landing, Frankenstein story, etc." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-31T06:11:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hut in the Jungle", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 30, 2009, at 9:05 PM, b sharp wrote:\n\nFWIW-\n\nI see the Jungle Hut as a clear example of a time travel device as \nmost specifically described for the Last House: a labyrinthine \nentranceway leading to a vertical structure. We see this pattern \nrepeated in the towers around the Atrium of Time, Ultan's Library \nand probably in the Naviscaput's lair. Higher levels are in the \nfuture and lower levels are in the past (this helps explain Valeria \nand the Path of Air).\n\nThus, the earth that we see at the top of the ladder of the Jungle \nHut is in Urth's future. This is supported by the textual and Wolfe \ninterview clues which suggest Urth is the analog of Earth which \nexists in a previous universal iteration. And why Urth has Severian \nwhile Earth has Christ, etc.\n\nAnd I think Isangoma is a Father Inire incarnation, like most of the \ntwisted old monkey-like guys we find; Hephaestus analog that he is. \nJungle Hut allows Inire access to some earth artifacts which make it \nto Urth like a picture of the moon landing, Frankenstein story, etc.\n_________________________________________________________________" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Now that's pretty interesting.\n\nwould the Sorcerers underground pits list among those examples?\n\nIs there any reason to infer that the time travel device in the \nvertical structure is forward only?\nUnless there is, I'd guess Earth as past is still the best answer in \nterms of resolving plot and thematics and authors note in Shadow.\n(and if it is in the future, the Baldanders/Frankenstein trip loses \nits punch)\n\nIsangoma / Inire — hmmmm.... " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-31T18:35:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hut in the Jungle", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Son o'Witz asks-" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "would the Sorcerers underground pits list among those examples?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good question. The entranceway is a bit labyrinthine but I don't\nsee any time travel elements involved as seen in the other examples." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is there any reason to infer that the time travel device in the\nvertical structure is forward only?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No. Severian moves from future to present in the Last House by going\ndown flights of stairs. Living in a tower near the Atrium of Time,\nValeria and her home have antique qualities. She and her family live\nin the lower levels of her tower, below ground level. Thus I deduce she\ncomes from Severian's past.\n\nI think Ultan's Library is hidden in the past; twisted, old\nmonkey-like Rudesind, wise in the ways of Inire, directs Severian\nto a shortcut to the Library and he has to descend to get there. Cyriaca's\nuncle's (a suspiciously knowlegeable character worth investigting) story\njibes with this idea of the library hidden in the past (as does the J.L.Borges\nallusion).\n\n\nRegarding Urth's relationship to Earth I'll note that in Norse mythology,\nthe three Norns are Urth (past), Verthandi (present) and Skuld (future).\n\nWolfe won't speak on a lot of the mysteries of his books but I think on this\none he is clear and open.Here is a quote from Gene Wolfe in an interview with James\nJordan regarding Severian and Urth's place in regard to our world:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "JJ: This universe that you set in Briah, or part of it--is that our universe?\nOr is that a universe that resurrected saints have set up in the world to come\nas part of the cities that they made?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "GW: No. I thought of it as a long past universe. Something that we are repeating\nrather than something that we are." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think there is a similar quote like this in another interview or two." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Isangoma / Inire — hmmmm...." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well when Inire is first mentioned we are told he is very old, bent and twisted and\nlooks like a monkey. Why would such an important character never be openly shown?\nUsing this physical description I think we can find him appearing many times, but never\nopenly. Recognizing that (like Hephaestus) in addition to being bent he is adept at\ncreating stuff helps the identification sometimes. Also, like so many Greek Gods, he\nseems to have a thing for young, human women. Sometimes he can be spotted that way.\n\n\n\nI'll mention that toward the end of UotNS, Severian sees a woman being escorted by soldiers\nalong the Path of Air. This woman is surely related to the Contessa in Dr. Talos' play but\nother hints tie her to Catherine AND to the dead woman in the grave at the very beginning of\nSeverian's story. Leaving other implications to dangle, I'll conjecture that the Path of Air\nleads to the top of a tower in the Citadel. Going from top to the bottom of this tower brings\na person back in time from Flood Day to the time just before Severian becomes Captain of\nApprentices.\n\n\nAnyway, here is the link to the James Jordan interview. http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze2tmhh/wolfejbj.html#urth2\nJordan's questions are so intensely religious I think Wolfe lets his guard down a little more\nthan usual. Fine with me!\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49D269FB.6050200@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-03-31T19:07:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hut in the Jungle", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "b sharp wrote:\nFWIW- \n \nI see the Jungle Hut as a clear example of a time travel device as\nmost specifically described for the Last House: a labyrinthine\nentranceway leading to a vertical structure. We see this pattern\nrepeated in the towers around the Atrium of Time, Ultan's Library and\nprobably in the Naviscaput's lair. Higher levels are in the future\nand lower levels are in the past (this helps explain Valeria and the\nPath of Air)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What's the example for Ultan? IIRC, during his sighted days he was fond \nof reading by a window on the 49th floor of the library, overlooking the \n Upholsterer's Garden." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<842DF32C-2B90-40D7-88DA-BA0D6657469F@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-04-01T14:08:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hut in the Jungle", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sharp, I think you've got some good stuff here. I can't dig in right \nnow but I didn't want to leave you hanging.\nthe idea of the library hidden in the past, while cumbersome and \nperhaps not necessary to the plot, (or really even hinted at that I \ncan think of ), is still a neat little gem of an idea.\n\nI see a lot of spiritual metaphor in Severian's vertical movement, and \n*northernly* quest. I'll try to post something about that soon. I'm \ngonna think it over and see if your idea affects that in any way.\n\n~o'Witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 31, 2009, at 11:35 AM, b sharp wrote:\n\n\n\nSon o'Witz asks-" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "would the Sorcerers underground pits list among those examples?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Good question. The entranceway is a bit labyrinthine but I don't\nsee any time travel elements involved as seen in the other examples." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Is there any reason to infer that the time travel device in the\nvertical structure is forward only?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No. Severian moves from future to present in the Last House by going\ndown flights of stairs. Living in a tower near the Atrium of Time,\nValeria and her home have antique qualities. She and her family live\nin the lower levels of her tower, below ground level. Thus I deduce \nshe\ncomes from Severian's past.\n\nI think Ultan's Library is hidden in the past; twisted, old\nmonkey-like Rudesind, wise in the ways of Inire, directs Severian\nto a shortcut to the Library and he has to descend to get there. \nCyriaca's\nuncle's (a suspiciously knowlegeable character worth investigting) \nstory\njibes with this idea of the library hidden in the past (as does the \nJ.L.Borges\nallusion).\n\n\nRegarding Urth's relationship to Earth I'll note that in Norse \nmythology,\nthe three Norns are Urth (past), Verthandi (present) and Skuld \n(future).\n\nWolfe won't speak on a lot of the mysteries of his books but I think \non this\none he is clear and open.Here is a quote from Gene Wolfe in an \ninterview with James\nJordan regarding Severian and Urth's place in regard to our world:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "JJ: This universe that you set in Briah, or part of it--is that our \nuniverse?\nOr is that a universe that resurrected saints have set up in the \nworld to come\nas part of the cities that they made?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "GW: No. I thought of it as a long past universe. Something that we \nare repeating\nrather than something that we are." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think there is a similar quote like this in another interview or \ntwo." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Isangoma / Inire — hmmmm...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well when Inire is first mentioned we are told he is very old, bent \nand twisted and\nlooks like a monkey. Why would such an important character never be \nopenly shown?\nUsing this physical description I think we can find him appearing \nmany times, but never\nopenly. Recognizing that (like Hephaestus) in addition to being bent \nhe is adept at\ncreating stuff helps the identification sometimes. Also, like so \nmany Greek Gods, he\nseems to have a thing for young, human women. Sometimes he can be \nspotted that way.\n\n\n\nI'll mention that toward the end of UotNS, Severian sees a woman \nbeing escorted by soldiers\nalong the Path of Air. This woman is surely related to the Contessa \nin Dr. Talos' play but\nother hints tie her to Catherine AND to the dead woman in the grave \nat the very beginning of\nSeverian's story. Leaving other implications to dangle, I'll \nconjecture that the Path of Air\nleads to the top of a tower in the Citadel. Going from top to the \nbottom of this tower brings\na person back in time from Flood Day to the time just before \nSeverian becomes Captain of\nApprentices.\n\n\nAnyway, here is the link to the James Jordan interview. http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze2tmhh/wolfejbj.html#urth2\nJordan's questions are so intensely religious I think Wolfe lets his \nguard down a little more\nthan usual. Fine with me!\n\n-bsharp\n_________________________________________________________________\nHotmail? is up to 70% faster. Now good news travels really fast.\nhttp://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_70faster_032009\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-03T13:35:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hut in the Jungle", "in_reply_to": "<842DF32C-2B90-40D7-88DA-BA0D6657469F@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What's the example for Ultan? IIRC, during his sighted days he was fond \nof reading by a window on the 49th floor of the library, overlooking the \nUpholsterer's Garden." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThanks for bringing up that scene, I had forgotten it. I'm not sure if it\nis negative or positive evidence for the library extending back (and forward)\ninto time. We are told it extends in space as far as the House Absolute;\ntoo far to be a \"natural\" extension I'll guess.\n \nI re-read the passage and I'll note that the Upholsterer's Garden serves the purpose\nof drying rosemary to stuff into pillows (reminds me a bit of the cushions from\nSeverian's tryst with Jolenta). If the Library extends down to the past but \nalso rises up 49 floors, perhaps it extends far enough into the future to\nreach Earth, as does the Jungle Hut.\n \nWith regards to Gene Wolfe's Earth, I think it is safe to say that Rosemary\n(Wolfe's wife) is an important part of it. Also, wolfe was 49 years old when\nShadow of the Torturer was published. \n \nI'll also note that Ultan (and Cyby) tell the story of his reading and looking \nout the window of the 49th floor to mark when Ultan first started to realize he \nwas going blind. I'll further note that Jorge Luis Borges became fully blind in\nhis 50's (he was 81 when SotT was published).\n \nFWIW\n \n \n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0904030649l532e2f3dkff5f099f8f293dc6@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-03T13:49:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hut in the Jungle", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 9:35 AM, b sharp wrote:\n\nJeff Wilson writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What's the example for Ultan? IIRC, during his sighted days he was fond\nof reading by a window on the 49th floor of the library, overlooking the\nUpholsterer's Garden." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thanks for bringing up that scene, I had forgotten it. I'm not sure if it\nis negative or positive evidence for the library extending back (and\nforward)\ninto time. We are told it extends in space as far as the House Absolute;\ntoo far to be a \"natural\" extension I'll guess." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We've been operating on that assumption, I know, but rereading Short Sun,\nI'm no longer certain of it. Check out Duko Rigoglio's rant:\n\n\"Nessus is our city...A city larger than the whorl on which it stands...A\nwhorl, any whorl, is only flat...we beheld Nessus, the undying city. But we\ndid not see Nessus...There were many buildings there, countless houses of\none and two and three and even four stories, and countless towers of twenty\nand thirty and three hundred. Of three thousand. Do you graps it? Why, no\none ever succeeded in counting the towers in the Citadel alone....one could\nhave walked all around the Citadel in three days, or four...It was only a\nsmall area, really so small that people from distant parts of the city, of\nwhich there were many thousands, actually doubted that it existed at all.\n Then underneath all our buildings were cellars and sub-cellars, dungeons\nand caverns and tunnels without end.\"\n\nHe continues for a bit. If Nessus is truly that vast, and has \"caverns and\ntunnels without end\" below it, I think we're meant to consider the\npossibility that the Library is at least physically connect to the House\nAbsolute.\n\nThis doesn't mean, of course, that it isn't also connected via some kind of\nmagic mirror/Father Inire mechanism. I think that's more or less certain." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "FWIW\n\n\n-bsharp\n_________________________________________________________________\nWindows Live?: Keep your life in sync.\nhttp://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_allup_1a_explore_042009\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-04-04T17:08:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hut in the Jungle", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Apr 3, 2009, at 6:35 AM, b sharp wrote:\n\nJeff Wilson writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What's the example for Ultan? IIRC, during his sighted days he was \nfond\nof reading by a window on the 49th floor of the library, \noverlooking the\nUpholsterer's Garden." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thanks for bringing up that scene, I had forgotten it. I'm not sure \nif it\nis negative or positive evidence for the library extending back (and \nforward)\ninto time. We are told it extends in space as far as the House \nAbsolute;\ntoo far to be a \"natural\" extension I'll guess.\n\nI re-read the passage and I'll note that the Upholsterer's Garden \nserves the purpose\nof drying rosemary to stuff into pillows (reminds me a bit of the \ncushions from\nSeverian's tryst with Jolenta). If the Library extends down to the \npast but\nalso rises up 49 floors, perhaps it extends far enough into the \nfuture to\nreach Earth, as does the Jungle Hut.\n\nWith regards to Gene Wolfe's Earth, I think it is safe to say that \nRosemary\n(Wolfe's wife) is an important part of it. Also, wolfe was 49 years \nold when\nShadow of the Torturer was published.\n\nI'll also note that Ultan (and Cyby) tell the story of his reading \nand looking\nout the window of the 49th floor to mark when Ultan first started to \nrealize he\nwas going blind. I'll further note that Jorge Luis Borges became \nfully blind in\nhis 50's (he was 81 when SotT was published).\n\nFWIW\n\n\n-bsharp\n_________________________________________________________________" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "nice parsing. I love that 49 bit.\n\nin the realm of Sci-Fi, has anyone else done this sort of embedded \ncasual time travel structure before?\nI've always considered our timelines to be wrapped up in a spiral, so \na vertical structure would have the opportunity to exist in the \ndifferent layers.\nreminds one of a archeological documentary where the narrator says, as \nyou descend into the canyon, \"And now we walk further back in time \nwith each strata in the crust\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49D7FF6D.7050109@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-04-05T00:46:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hut in the Jungle", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Son of Witz wrote:\nin the realm of Sci-Fi, has anyone else done this sort of embedded \ncasual time travel structure before?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Zelazny has some of it in his Amber books, and David Gerrold put some \ninto the original \"Land of the Lost\" TV series." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49D8B409.9010400@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-04-05T13:37:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hut in the Jungle", "in_reply_to": "<49D7FF6D.7050109@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Along these lines, there's another \"miracle\" (more of a trick) of Severian's that might follow this pattern: when he tosses the craquemarte in the air from the deck of the ship upon Gyoll and catches it. Once I got that Severian's healing power might be a power over time, I assumed that he simply reversed time so that the cutlass flew back into his hand. It seems like the kind of thing he would do.\n\nIf so, you could also look at it, I suppose, as time travel into the future while moving upward, and travel into the past on the return path downward. The problem, of course, is that the past is also the future, since the catch follows the release in time. But the return path is only a ripple in local spacetime while Urth moves forward.\n\nThus, a paradox, but a neat one." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 10:08:21 -0700\nFrom: Son of Witz \nSubject: Re: (urth) Hut in the Jungle\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes\n\n\nOn Apr 3, 2009, at 6:35 AM, b sharp wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "What's the example for Ultan? IIRC, during his sighted days he was \nfond\nof reading by a window on the 49th floor of the library, \noverlooking the\nUpholsterer's Garden." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " \n\nThanks for bringing up that scene, I had forgotten it. I'm not sure \nif it\nis negative or positive evidence for the library extending back (and \nforward)\ninto time. We are told it extends in space as far as the House \nAbsolute;\ntoo far to be a \"natural\" extension I'll guess.\n\nI re-read the passage and I'll note that the Upholsterer's Garden \nserves the purpose\nof drying rosemary to stuff into pillows (reminds me a bit of the \ncushions from\nSeverian's tryst with Jolenta). If the Library extends down to the \npast but\nalso rises up 49 floors, perhaps it extends far enough into the \nfuture to\nreach Earth, as does the Jungle Hut.\n\nWith regards to Gene Wolfe's Earth, I think it is safe to say that \nRosemary\n(Wolfe's wife) is an important part of it. Also, wolfe was 49 years \nold when\nShadow of the Torturer was published.\n\nI'll also note that Ultan (and Cyby) tell the story of his reading \nand looking\nout the window of the 49th floor to mark when Ultan first started to \nrealize he\nwas going blind. I'll further note that Jorge Luis Borges became \nfully blind in\nhis 50's (he was 81 when SotT was published).\n\nFWIW\n\n\n-bsharp\n_________________________________________________________________" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n\n\nnice parsing. I love that 49 bit.\n\nin the realm of Sci-Fi, has anyone else done this sort of embedded \ncasual time travel structure before?\nI've always considered our timelines to be wrapped up in a spiral, so \na vertical structure would have the opportunity to exist in the \ndifferent layers.\nreminds one of a archeological documentary where the narrator says, as \nyou descend into the canyon, \"And now we walk further back in time \nwith each strata in the crust\"\n\n\n\n------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-04-07T13:57:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hut in the Jungle", "in_reply_to": "<49D7FF6D.7050109@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "getting dim memories of Land of the Lost now.\nSLEESTAKS!!!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Apr 4, 2009, at 5:46 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nSon of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "in the realm of Sci-Fi, has anyone else done this sort of embedded \ncasual time travel structure before?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Zelazny has some of it in his Amber books, and David Gerrold put \nsome into the original \"Land of the Lost\" TV series.\n\n-- \nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<273409710904070913w7cad1117m4ae2cd82383e8ca0@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-07T16:13:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hut in the Jungle", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It must be obvious to everyone that the inspiration for Zak on Tzadkiels\nship was little Chaka from Land of the Lost. Am I right? Am I right?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 6:57 AM, Son of Witz wrote:\ngetting dim memories of Land of the Lost now.\nSLEESTAKS!!!\n\n\n\nOn Apr 4, 2009, at 5:46 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\n\n Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "in the realm of Sci-Fi, has anyone else done this sort of embedded casual\ntime travel structure before?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Zelazny has some of it in his Amber books, and David Gerrold put some into\nthe original \"Land of the Lost\" TV series.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-04-07T16:33:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hut in the Jungle", "in_reply_to": "<273409710904070913w7cad1117m4ae2cd82383e8ca0@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It must be obvious to everyone that the inspiration for Zak on Tzadkiels\nship was little Chaka from Land of the Lost. Am I right? Am I right?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "yuk yuk!" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49DC60BF.2010103@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-04-08T08:30:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hut in the Jungle", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Son of Witz wrote:\ngetting dim memories of Land of the Lost now.\nSLEESTAKS!!!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Exactly, some of the scariest monsters on TV - they're not fast or \nclever, but there's always more of them waiting in the dark and they \nhave these HUGE mouths.\n\nEnik's tragic discovery that they are not his primitive ancestors but \ninstead are his race's debased descendants was moving - and perhaps \nsheds some light on the roughly contemporaneous 5HC \"abos\"." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] } ] }