{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5372", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5372, "subject": "Seawrack/ mother plot / + three whorls", "messages": 9, "voices": 5, "first": "2009-03-18T23:47:14+00:00", "last": "2009-03-19T11:18:40+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-18T23:47:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Seawrack/ mother plot / + three whorls", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Somewhere I read a suggestion about Seawrack and the Mother having a hidden scheme in Short Sun. What is it? Where is it?\n\nI REALLY don't get final bit about The Mother and the brides of Abia unless Urth is Blue. I appreciate all the arguments against that idea, and i'm not convinced, but this aquatic mother, and buried walls under the sea just really seem to scream out that Urth or Ushas is Blue. Or are we to suppose that a Sea Mother Goddess is inherent on watery worlds? It just seems so much more tidy if there are only 3 whorls and not 5. And Horn/Silk keeps saying \"I've drawn the three whorls again\" Why would there be two additional whorls.\nJordon pointed out to me that if Ushas is Blue, then the projection of Horn and Co to the Red Sun Whorl is not in simultaneous timeline to Horn's, which is maybe problematic, though maybe not. we've scene time travel, and astral projection, why not both at once?\n\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<273409710903181702r15927854t2f8e37e55854f9c4@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T00:02:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Seawrack/ mother plot / + three whorls", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There are some possibilities. Maybe Blue is where Abia's 'race' is from?\nI've always assumed Abia came to Urth at some point. Must have come from\nsomewhere, no?\n\nAnd I am against the theory of Ushas as Blue, you know from our\ndiscussions. However, there are so many resonances between the two worlds\n(some of which you point out), that I think we are being directed to the\nidea that what happened on Urth/Ushas happened on Blue as well. Perhaps\nthere was a \"severian\" equivelant on Blue. One of the Neighbors. And we\nhave the Abia analogue, just like Urth. There is more to this, which until\nI finish on this read through of SS I don't want to lay out, but I think the\nmulti-limbed beings and what not are a clue to this.\n\nAnd I can't get with the idea that Horn is a Neighbor. Doesn't make a lick\nof sense to me, thematically or contextually." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 4:47 PM, Son of Witz wrote:\nSomewhere I read a suggestion about Seawrack and the Mother having a hidden\nscheme in Short Sun. What is it? Where is it?\n\nI REALLY don't get final bit about The Mother and the brides of Abia unless\nUrth is Blue. I appreciate all the arguments against that idea, and i'm not\nconvinced, but this aquatic mother, and buried walls under the sea just\nreally seem to scream out that Urth or Ushas is Blue. Or are we to suppose\nthat a Sea Mother Goddess is inherent on watery worlds? It just seems so\nmuch more tidy if there are only 3 whorls and not 5. And Horn/Silk keeps\nsaying \"I've drawn the three whorls again\" Why would there be two\nadditional whorls.\nJordon pointed out to me that if Ushas is Blue, then the projection of Horn\nand Co to the Red Sun Whorl is not in simultaneous timeline to Horn's, which\nis maybe problematic, though maybe not. we've scene time travel, and astral\nprojection, why not both at once?\n\n~witz\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<80690B4EB4234E3F8F7ABF482DBCF88B@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T00:43:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Seawrack/ mother plot / + three whorls", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Witz: I REALLY don't get final bit about The Mother and the brides of Abia \nunless Urth is Blue.\nI appreciate all the arguments against that idea, and i'm not convinced, \nbut this aquatic\nmother, and buried walls under the sea just really seem to scream out that \nUrth or Ushas is Blue." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was an enthusiastic proponent of Marc's Blue Earth theory, because it was \nan attempt to resolve some open puzzles originally rather than must shrug \nyour shoulders, and because it made several comments by Horn make a lot of \nsense. But, guess what? When I realized that Horn was Typhon and the Raja \nwas a Neighbor, those comments made comprehensive sense and Blue Earth \nceased to have any value I'm afraid. Also, a puckish comment by Wolfe to \nMarc caused him to flip and declare that Urth was Green instead. Actually, \nthere is thematic value to having Blue or Green be Verthandi. But I simply \ndon't believe it is. Just as I don't believe Blue and Green are St. Anne and \nSt. Croix." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jordon pointed out to me that if Ushas is Blue, then the projection\nof Horn and Co to the Red Sun Whorl is not in simultaneous timeline\nto Horn's, which is maybe problematic, though maybe not. we've scene\ntime travel, and astral projection, why not both at once?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dream-travel self-evidently involves or enables Time-travel. This is so \nobvious from the Long Sun and the Short Sun stories that I'm a little \nimpatient with those that don't casually accept it. So I'd best not get into \nit again.\n\nBut I don't believe that the Short Sun is Sol. It is a pointless flourish \non a narrative that is already troubling enough.\n\nJ " } ] }, { "message_id": "<39ed084f0903181846v52792ec6q5d73306c83eaeca0@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Groves", "address": "matthewalangroves at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T01:46:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Seawrack/ mother plot / + three whorls", "in_reply_to": "<80690B4EB4234E3F8F7ABF482DBCF88B@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The best argument that Urth is Blue (or Green), to my mind, is the\nthematic argument, which Marc made long ago, that The Book of the\nShort Sun is all about returning. I can't seem to dig up Marc's old\npost... Together with the corn genetics symbol and the hyacinth\nsymbol at the end, I'm afraid Marc has me convinced that the Whorl has\nreturned whence it came. (But Blue/Green still isn't St. Anne/St.\nCroix.) I'm much more convinced of this than I am that resurrected\nHorn is a Neighbor--a proposition I've never been able to find much\ntextual support for. But I'll be reading SS later this year with both\nideas in mind." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T01:56:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Seawrack/ mother plot / + three whorls", "in_reply_to": "<39ed084f0903181846v52792ec6q5d73306c83eaeca0@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The best argument that Urth is Blue (or Green), to my mind, is the\nthematic argument, which Marc made long ago, that The Book of the\nShort Sun is all about returning. I can't seem to dig up Marc's old\npost... " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's here:\nhttp://www.urth.org/whorlmap/chras-writers/default.htm\n\nSee http://www.urth.org/whorlmap/ for the whole site.\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<39ed084f0903181906l1561bcacq7d34f7b5af8d44c9@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Groves", "address": "matthewalangroves at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T02:06:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Seawrack/ mother plot / + three whorls", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, but i seem to remember a much more succinct post on the old list\nabout the thematic argument, without so much of the hard-sf defense of\nthe idea, which does less to convince me than just the idea of return\nbeing important." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 8:56 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nIt's here:\nhttp://www.urth.org/whorlmap/chras-writers/default.htm" } ] }, { "message_id": "<139BC7B4-3D5D-4295-BE8A-F318A8178F04@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-19T06:09:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Seawrack/ mother plot / + three whorls", "in_reply_to": "<273409710903181702r15927854t2f8e37e55854f9c4@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 18, 2009, at 5:02 PM, Jordon Flato wrote:\nThere are some possibilities. Maybe Blue is where Abia's 'race' is \nfrom? I've always assumed Abia came to Urth at some point. Must \nhave come from somewhere, no?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dang. I didn't think of that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 18, 2009, at 5:43 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nDream-travel self-evidently involves or enables Time-travel. This is \nso obvious from the Long Sun and the Short Sun stories that I'm a \nlittle impatient with those that don't casually accept it. So I'd \nbest not get into it again.\n\nBut I don't believe that the Short Sun is Sol. It is a pointless \nflourish on a narrative that is already troubling enough." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm cool with the dream/time travel trip. I threw it out there to see \nif there were strong objections to that idea.\n\nI don't think SS=Sol would be a pointless flourish.\n\"I've drawn the three whorls again\"\n\"Return to the Whorl\"\nHoof sees Green in the sky. He's looked at Green his whole life. If \nit wasn't Green, wouldn't he make some sort of comment about a change.\nI think that if I just \"traveled to another whorl, and looked up and \nsaw a moon that was different than my home planet's Lune, I wouldn't \ncall it Lune.\n\nI'm not convinced, I just think the Three Whorls, and the Return make \nA LOT of thematic sense. So much, in fact, that I'd consider two more \nWhorls in a book constantly talking about Three Whorls a pointless \nflourish.\n\nThe real problem, aside from hard SF moon distance/size tidal issues \nstuff people bring up against the idea, is that Blue has a lot of \nruins of an ancient race, and very strange flora and fauna. Is it at \nall possible that The Whorl jumped sequential creations? don't know.\nI don't have a problem with the idea that The Whorl might have been \nout there thousands of Urth years before returning. You can't count on \nany of the cargo's timeframe ideas, can you?\n\nbut if Neighbors can be trees (I haven't really grokked Aramini's \nargument) couldn't that be descendant from the Green Man?\n\nAnd every time I read about the Neighbors' anatomy, I was reminded of \nPlato's Androgyns. What were they called? they're like Two people in \none. Some are are hetero/some homo pair ups. Anyway, a huge theme in \nNew Sun seems to be this Androgyne quality in the epitome. Much was \nmade of the Old Autarch's androgyny, and of course the true Epitome \nwas Severian/Thecla/+++++. I think there is really something to this \nidea that a better humanity is truly androgynous.\nPerhaps somewhere in Usha's future, these physical androgyns evolved, \nimmigrated, or were engineered? Who knows.\nAnd, hell, if that were a \"fact\" in the future, it might resonate all \nthe way back to create Plato's Myth about them. :-D\n\n~Witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<011801c9a865$6e6d7440$67d24a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2009-03-19T07:36:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Seawrack/ mother plot / + three whorls", "in_reply_to": "<139BC7B4-3D5D-4295-BE8A-F318A8178F04@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Son of Witz quoted and wrote:\nOn Mar 18, 2009, at 5:43 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dream-travel self-evidently involves or enables Time-travel. This is\nso obvious from the Long Sun and the Short Sun stories that I'm a\nlittle impatient with those that don't casually accept it. So I'd\nbest not get into it again.\n\nBut I don't believe that the Short Sun is Sol. It is a pointless\nflourish on a narrative that is already troubling enough." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm cool with the dream/time travel trip. I threw it out there to see\nif there were strong objections to that idea." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh, there were. But I'm not going to get into it again, either. Just don't\ntake everything thrown out here as accepted wisdom. Far, far from it.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T11:18:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Seawrack/ mother plot / + three whorls", "in_reply_to": "<011801c9a865$6e6d7440$67d24a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm cool with the dream/time travel trip. I threw it out there to see\nif there were strong objections to that idea." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Oh, there were. But I'm not going to get into it again, either. Just don't\ntake everything thrown out here as accepted wisdom. Far, far from it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy,\n\nDo you have a link to an actual refutation of where the second Oreb came \nfrom in Silk's room, and how the Raja showed up in the Grandma's story? Part \nof my...well, let's just say it... hostility to the positions of the other \nside (when I discussed it) is that they seemed to just wave their hands and \nsay \"Well, the Long Sun/Short Sun isn't a Time-travel kind of story.\" I \ndon't care to re-hash it, but if this was actually dealt with I would mind \nreading it.\n\nJ " } ] } ] }