{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5377", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5377, "subject": "Future Echoes: Hut in the Jungle +", "messages": 16, "voices": 7, "first": "2009-03-20T16:38:59+00:00", "last": "2009-03-21T02:13:54+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-20T16:38:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Future Echoes: Hut in the Jungle +", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The next bit I read after this discussion was from Shadow 24 Flower of Dissolution:\n\n\"Beside me, Dorcas plucked a water hyacinth and put it in her hair. Except for the vague spot of white on the bank some distance ahead, it was the first flower I had seen in the Garden of Endless Sleep; I looked for others, but saw none. Is it possible the flower came into being only because Dorcas reached for it? In daylight moments, I know as well as the next that such things are impossible;\"\n\nIs it possible the flower came into being only because Dorcas reached for it?\n\nI can't help but feel this is a slightly different illustration of this idea of future >><< past echoes influencing each other.\n\nHe's waxing philosophical as he describes the reversal of things on the other side of the world when he writes this. \n\n\"the seeress's cave, and thus this garden, was on the opposite side of the world. There, as Master Malrubius had taught us long ago, all was reversed:\"\n\nThat everything is reversed is a big clue, right? the reversal of causation in this idea of, \"flowers leaping from nothingness into a girl's fingers just as by light in spring they leap from mere filthiness into the air?\" is similar to the causation reversal in Baldanders>>Frankenstein and NewSun>>Consiliator or, say, SecondComingJesus>>JesusVersion. (can someone give me a better label for that please? O-Jesus is to gangasta.)\n\npretty cool.\nwhat a dreamy, poetically surreal illustration Wolfe has given us in the opening of this chapter.\n\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Craig Brewer [mailto:cnbrewer at yahoo.com]\nSent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 10:52 PM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) Hut in the Jungle\n\n\nOr another way to put it would be that some myths are true only in the future. They make themselves true by projecting pseudo-false stories about themselves in the past which help bring about their realization. That would be Severian, yes?\n\nAnd on that reading, Talos realizing that his situation is what Prometheus was really all about is significant in the text because it's a smaller example of your Amphisbaena where the REAL meaningful Amphisbaena's are the cosmic myths which are lies (in the past) that make themselves become true (in the future).\n\nIs that right? If so, then I can retract my underwhelming.\n\nOh, and: Gee Whiz. Gene Wolfe. Coincidence?\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: Son of Witz \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 12:44:41 AM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Hut in the Jungle\n\n\nOn Mar 18, 2009, at 10:37 PM, Craig Brewer wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dizzying from one perspective. Underwhelming from another. Or I suppose both at once." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "that's interesting considering your and my first exchange where you argued that the flattening of a hierarchy of the 3 meanings was what you found interesting, and what I found interesting was the depth and hierarchy of those 3 meanings." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If you're right, then the upshot of this would be that myth (Prometheus) is a retelling \"from the future\" of a very worldly event, Baldanders creating Talos and eventually destroying himself, which comes to have \"mythic\" proportions by being \"projected\" through a past lens darkly. Is that right?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, that's what I think is going on." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But why does it have to be \"from the future\"? What does that add to the idea that real events can be blown up into myths that resonate with meaning far from their original context? What's different about a myth's origin being in the future than in the past? (Apart from the coolness factor, I agree.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It might be Gee Whiz to realize that time isn't uni-directional.\nbut, it does elaborate on that idea to some degree.\nie: take Jesus. Is the second coming a myth that made from \"real events\" blown out up into Myth,\nor is the actual fact of the second coming resonating back through time to create the Myth.\nthis is why I found so much Christic resonance in Severian, as this is exactly what's happened to him.\nHe became the new sun, and by crazy circumstances went back and planted the seed of hope for the New Sun.\n\ndunnoh, I find that concept pretty badass and not mundane at all.\n\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "----- Original Message ----\nFrom: Son of Witz \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 12:31:05 AM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Hut in the Jungle\n\nno no.\nIt's not just \"cute\". it's fairly profound. it's literal, and it's a good example of why I've been saying the time loop is intractable.\nThings in this story's past have their roots in it's temporal future.\nI know it's a steady refrain from me, but Amphisbaena, Amphisbaena Amphisbaena.\n\nHe's suggesting they ARE Frankensein, and the \"particular past event that Talos is referring to\" is the writing of Frankenstein and other Promethean stories.\nDizzyingly awesome idea.\n~witz\n\nOn Mar 18, 2009, at 10:06 PM, Craig Brewer wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Fair enough. (Although it leaves the Frankenstein reference as just something \"cute\" to throw in there.)\n\nCan you explain how it works here? Is there a particular past event that Talos is referring to that their present-as-future is affecting? Perhaps both? Is he suggesting that they're writing _Frankenstein_ at that moment? heh...\n\n\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: \"brunians at brunians.org\" \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 12:02:39 AM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Hut in the Jungle\n\nNo, Talos (or Wolfe) meant that pretty literally. We discussed this when\nWolfe and met in the mid 80's. John Cramer was also present. Gene and I\nfound that we agreed that time was a certain way, which includes future\nevents affecting the past in certain tricky ways.\n\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Gwern, I see what you mean about those being two directions of the same\nissue. But there's something else going on there, as well.\n\nI always thought that Talos was really talking about myth and stories:\nhe's saying, \"Hey, this is _Frankenstein_, but backwards!\" And the point\nis that myth shapes us, but we also move away from the original intent of\nmyths so that they are changed and distorted over time.\n\nWhat happens in the hut seems less about myth and story than about\nreflecting on the consequences of one's actions, but also realizing that\nwho we are may be the consequence of someone else's actions.\n\nBoth are about how, you're right, it's hard to pin down an \"original\"\ncause or action. But they're dealing with different mechanisms: choices on\nthe one hand and myth/story on the other.\n\nI'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just saying that there may be different\nways that they're thinking about the relationship between past and future.\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: Gwern Branwen " } ] }, { "message_id": "<196D9630-6C25-4D3C-948A-518040C31B81@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-03-20T16:44:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Future Echoes: Hut in the Jungle +", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 20, 2009, at 11:38 AM, Son of Witz wrote:\n\"Beside me, Dorcas plucked a water hyacinth and put it in her hair. \nExcept for the vague spot of white on the bank some distance ahead, \nit was the first flower I had seen in the Garden of Endless Sleep; I \nlooked for others, but saw none. Is it possible the flower came into \nbeing only because Dorcas reached for it? In daylight moments, I \nknow as well as the next that such things are impossible;\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So, it's not hyacinths.\n\nOh. Hyacinth.\n\nUm. Anyway, so, it's not hyacinths, but as long as we're doing \ntemporally-reversed scenes, how about when the monster drowns the \nlittle girl who's tossing the flower petals into the pool in the \nKarloff _Frankenstein_? Here we have the time reversal where Dorcas \nis produced from the pool, and then the flower petals.\n\nI'm probably just seeing spectres.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-20T16:48:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Future Echoes: Hut in the Jungle +", "in_reply_to": "<196D9630-6C25-4D3C-948A-518040C31B81@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Adam Thornton [mailto:adam at io.com]\nSent: Friday, March 20, 2009 09:44 AM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) Future Echoes: Hut in the Jungle +\n\n\nOn Mar 20, 2009, at 11:38 AM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"Beside me, Dorcas plucked a water hyacinth and put it in her hair. \nExcept for the vague spot of white on the bank some distance ahead, \nit was the first flower I had seen in the Garden of Endless Sleep; I \nlooked for others, but saw none. Is it possible the flower came into \nbeing only because Dorcas reached for it? In daylight moments, I \nknow as well as the next that such things are impossible;\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So, it's not hyacinths.\n\nOh. Hyacinth.\n\nUm. Anyway, so, it's not hyacinths, but as long as we're doing \ntemporally-reversed scenes, how about when the monster drowns the \nlittle girl who's tossing the flower petals into the pool in the \nKarloff _Frankenstein_? Here we have the time reversal where Dorcas \nis produced from the pool, and then the flower petals.\n\nI'm probably just seeing spectres.\n\nAdam" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I seem to see the wispy edges of a ghost there...\n\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0903200954r1cd8272j2f765b8ae676e706@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-20T16:54:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Future Echoes: Hut in the Jungle +", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dorcas thinks that the Claw works by reversing time. I've always thought\nthat that was wrong-headed--that it just works because it's divine\npower--magic.\n\nNow that I read this passage, however, I'm starting to come around to\nDorcas's view. My knowledge of physics is pretty minimal, but I have this\nvague idea that time slows down as one speeds up and would actually go\nbackwards if one could exceed the speed of light, which of course is\nimpossible. But if it *weren't *impossible, it would still be *impractical\n*because of the tremendous amount of energy it would take...unless one had\nthe ability to channel some kind of divine energy, flowing from a higher\nplane of existence, much like Severian does. Maybe that's *exactly *how the\nClaw works, and this thing about the flower leaping into being is a hint of\nthat." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 12:48 PM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Adam Thornton [mailto:adam at io.com]\nSent: Friday, March 20, 2009 09:44 AM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " >Subject: Re: (urth) Future Echoes: Hut in the Jungle +" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Mar 20, 2009, at 11:38 AM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "\"Beside me, Dorcas plucked a water hyacinth and put it in her hair.\nExcept for the vague spot of white on the bank some distance ahead,\nit was the first flower I had seen in the Garden of Endless Sleep; I\nlooked for others, but saw none. Is it possible the flower came into\nbeing only because Dorcas reached for it? In daylight moments, I\nknow as well as the next that such things are impossible;\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So, it's not hyacinths.\n\nOh. Hyacinth.\n\nUm. Anyway, so, it's not hyacinths, but as long as we're doing\ntemporally-reversed scenes, how about when the monster drowns the\nlittle girl who's tossing the flower petals into the pool in the\nKarloff _Frankenstein_? Here we have the time reversal where Dorcas\nis produced from the pool, and then the flower petals.\n\nI'm probably just seeing spectres.\n\nAdam" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I seem to see the wispy edges of a ghost there...\n\n~witz\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<273409710903200958y22f1cb95r60ff7af850996559@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-20T16:58:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Future Echoes: Hut in the Jungle +", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0903200954r1cd8272j2f765b8ae676e706@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And, if the goblet of water that turns to wine in the Inn in Saltus USED to\nhave wine in it before it held water, that would explain that 'miracle'\nalso...a reversal of time. This 'miracle' has always plagued me as being\nqualitatively different than the rest." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 9:54 AM, John Watkins wrote:\nDorcas thinks that the Claw works by reversing time. I've always thought\nthat that was wrong-headed--that it just works because it's divine\npower--magic.\n\nNow that I read this passage, however, I'm starting to come around to\nDorcas's view. My knowledge of physics is pretty minimal, but I have this\nvague idea that time slows down as one speeds up and would actually go\nbackwards if one could exceed the speed of light, which of course is\nimpossible. But if it *weren't *impossible, it would still be *impractical\n*because of the tremendous amount of energy it would take...unless one had\nthe ability to channel some kind of divine energy, flowing from a higher\nplane of existence, much like Severian does. Maybe that's *exactly *how\nthe Claw works, and this thing about the flower leaping into being is a hint\nof that.\n\nOn Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 12:48 PM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Adam Thornton [mailto:adam at io.com]\nSent: Friday, March 20, 2009 09:44 AM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " >Subject: Re: (urth) Future Echoes: Hut in the Jungle +" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Mar 20, 2009, at 11:38 AM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "\"Beside me, Dorcas plucked a water hyacinth and put it in her hair.\nExcept for the vague spot of white on the bank some distance ahead,\nit was the first flower I had seen in the Garden of Endless Sleep; I\nlooked for others, but saw none. Is it possible the flower came into\nbeing only because Dorcas reached for it? In daylight moments, I\nknow as well as the next that such things are impossible;\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "So, it's not hyacinths.\n\nOh. Hyacinth.\n\nUm. Anyway, so, it's not hyacinths, but as long as we're doing\ntemporally-reversed scenes, how about when the monster drowns the\nlittle girl who's tossing the flower petals into the pool in the\nKarloff _Frankenstein_? Here we have the time reversal where Dorcas\nis produced from the pool, and then the flower petals.\n\nI'm probably just seeing spectres.\n\nAdam" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I seem to see the wispy edges of a ghost there...\n\n~witz\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0903201004g6ae2d27ewcbd31164beb81b53@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-20T17:04:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Future Echoes: Hut in the Jungle +", "in_reply_to": "<273409710903200958y22f1cb95r60ff7af850996559@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I started to say, \"Yes, that made it look like the miracles were a religious\nthing--regilding things, making them more perfect, et cetera, which is not\nobviously connected to time travel.\"\n\nAnd then I remembered who Wolfe's favorite novelist is. Proust. \"In Search\nof Lost Time.\" \"Time Regained.\"\n\nSometimes the answers are simple." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 12:58 PM, Jordon Flato wrote:\nAnd, if the goblet of water that turns to wine in the Inn in Saltus USED to\nhave wine in it before it held water, that would explain that 'miracle'\nalso...a reversal of time. This 'miracle' has always plagued me as being\nqualitatively different than the rest.\n\n\n\n\n\nOn Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 9:54 AM, John Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dorcas thinks that the Claw works by reversing time. I've always thought\nthat that was wrong-headed--that it just works because it's divine\npower--magic.\n\nNow that I read this passage, however, I'm starting to come around to\nDorcas's view. My knowledge of physics is pretty minimal, but I have this\nvague idea that time slows down as one speeds up and would actually go\nbackwards if one could exceed the speed of light, which of course is\nimpossible. But if it *weren't *impossible, it would still be *impractical\n*because of the tremendous amount of energy it would take...unless one\nhad the ability to channel some kind of divine energy, flowing from a higher\nplane of existence, much like Severian does. Maybe that's *exactly *how\nthe Claw works, and this thing about the flower leaping into being is a hint\nof that.\n\n On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 12:48 PM, Son of Witz <\nsonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Adam Thornton [mailto:adam at io.com]\nSent: Friday, March 20, 2009 09:44 AM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " >Subject: Re: (urth) Future Echoes: Hut in the Jungle +" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On Mar 20, 2009, at 11:38 AM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "\"Beside me, Dorcas plucked a water hyacinth and put it in her hair.\nExcept for the vague spot of white on the bank some distance ahead,\nit was the first flower I had seen in the Garden of Endless Sleep; I\nlooked for others, but saw none. Is it possible the flower came into\nbeing only because Dorcas reached for it? In daylight moments, I\nknow as well as the next that such things are impossible;\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "So, it's not hyacinths.\n\nOh. Hyacinth.\n\nUm. Anyway, so, it's not hyacinths, but as long as we're doing\ntemporally-reversed scenes, how about when the monster drowns the\nlittle girl who's tossing the flower petals into the pool in the\nKarloff _Frankenstein_? Here we have the time reversal where Dorcas\nis produced from the pool, and then the flower petals.\n\nI'm probably just seeing spectres.\n\nAdam" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I seem to see the wispy edges of a ghost there...\n\n~witz\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-20T17:04:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Future Echoes: Hut in the Jungle +", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0903201004g6ae2d27ewcbd31164beb81b53@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh, good stuff Watkins.\nwhen you mention time reversing when exceeding the speed of light, that resonates with some of the other meat of this opening passage, the idea of the light being God's shadow.\nyou're sort of sketching in hard sf terms. When I read the passage I was thinking, Wow, this is sort of a hard SF idea, AND a completely theological idea, And completely poetically surreal, and excellently paradoxical.\n\nshadow chap 24\n\"The Increate maintains all things in order surely; and the theologicans say light is his shadow. Must it not be then that in darkness order grows ever less, flowers leaping from nothingness into a girl's fingers just as by light in spring they leap from mere filthiness into the air? Perhaps when night closes our eyes there is less order than we believe. Perhaps, indeed, it is this lack of order we perceive as darkness, a randomization of the waves of energy (like a sea), the fields of energy (like a farm) that appear to our deluded eyes---set by light in an order of which they themselves are incapable---to be the real world.\"\n\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: John Watkins [mailto:john.watkins04 at gmail.com]\nSent: Friday, March 20, 2009 09:54 AM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) Future Echoes: Hut in the Jungle +\n\nDorcas thinks that the Claw works by reversing time. I've always thought\nthat that was wrong-headed--that it just works because it's divine\npower--magic.\n\nNow that I read this passage, however, I'm starting to come around to\nDorcas's view. My knowledge of physics is pretty minimal, but I have this\nvague idea that time slows down as one speeds up and would actually go\nbackwards if one could exceed the speed of light, which of course is\nimpossible. But if it *weren't *impossible, it would still be *impractical\n*because of the tremendous amount of energy it would take...unless one had\nthe ability to channel some kind of divine energy, flowing from a higher\nplane of existence, much like Severian does. Maybe that's *exactly *how the\nClaw works, and this thing about the flower leaping into being is a hint of\nthat.\n\nOn Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 12:48 PM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Adam Thornton [mailto:adam at io.com]\nSent: Friday, March 20, 2009 09:44 AM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " >Subject: Re: (urth) Future Echoes: Hut in the Jungle +" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Mar 20, 2009, at 11:38 AM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "\"Beside me, Dorcas plucked a water hyacinth and put it in her hair.\nExcept for the vague spot of white on the bank some distance ahead,\nit was the first flower I had seen in the Garden of Endless Sleep; I\nlooked for others, but saw none. Is it possible the flower came into\nbeing only because Dorcas reached for it? In daylight moments, I\nknow as well as the next that such things are impossible;\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "So, it's not hyacinths.\n\nOh. Hyacinth.\n\nUm. Anyway, so, it's not hyacinths, but as long as we're doing\ntemporally-reversed scenes, how about when the monster drowns the\nlittle girl who's tossing the flower petals into the pool in the\nKarloff _Frankenstein_? Here we have the time reversal where Dorcas\nis produced from the pool, and then the flower petals.\n\nI'm probably just seeing spectres.\n\nAdam" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I seem to see the wispy edges of a ghost there...\n\n~witz\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-20T17:10:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Future Echoes: Hut in the Jungle +", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wow.\nThe wine goblet. duh...\nthis is too cool.\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Watkins wrote:\n\nI started to say, \"Yes, that made it look like the miracles were a religious\nthing--regilding things, making them more perfect, et cetera, which is not\nobviously connected to time travel.\"\n\nAnd then I remembered who Wolfe's favorite novelist is. Proust. \"In Search\nof Lost Time.\" \"Time Regained.\"\n\nSometimes the answers are simple." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jordon Flato wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And, if the goblet of water that turns to wine in the Inn in Saltus USED to\nhave wine in it before it held water, that would explain that 'miracle'\nalso...a reversal of time. This 'miracle' has always plagued me as being\nqualitatively different than the rest." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-20T17:15:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Future Echoes: Hut in the Jungle +", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "hey, speaking of other details that illustrate this idea,\nanyone seen a double edged sword lately?\nCuts both ways. :D\n\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Jordon Flato [mailto:jordonflato at gmail.com]\nSent: Friday, March 20, 2009 09:58 AM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) Future Echoes: Hut in the Jungle +\n\nAnd, if the goblet of water that turns to wine in the Inn in Saltus USED to\nhave wine in it before it held water, that would explain that 'miracle'\nalso...a reversal of time. This 'miracle' has always plagued me as being\nqualitatively different than the rest.\n\n\n\n\nOn Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 9:54 AM, John Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dorcas thinks that the Claw works by reversing time. I've always thought\nthat that was wrong-headed--that it just works because it's divine\npower--magic.\n\nNow that I read this passage, however, I'm starting to come around to\nDorcas's view. My knowledge of physics is pretty minimal, but I have this\nvague idea that time slows down as one speeds up and would actually go\nbackwards if one could exceed the speed of light, which of course is\nimpossible. But if it *weren't *impossible, it would still be *impractical\n*because of the tremendous amount of energy it would take...unless one had\nthe ability to channel some kind of divine energy, flowing from a higher\nplane of existence, much like Severian does. Maybe that's *exactly *how\nthe Claw works, and this thing about the flower leaping into being is a hint\nof that.\n\nOn Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 12:48 PM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Adam Thornton [mailto:adam at io.com]\nSent: Friday, March 20, 2009 09:44 AM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " >Subject: Re: (urth) Future Echoes: Hut in the Jungle +" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On Mar 20, 2009, at 11:38 AM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "\"Beside me, Dorcas plucked a water hyacinth and put it in her hair.\nExcept for the vague spot of white on the bank some distance ahead,\nit was the first flower I had seen in the Garden of Endless Sleep; I\nlooked for others, but saw none. Is it possible the flower came into\nbeing only because Dorcas reached for it? In daylight moments, I\nknow as well as the next that such things are impossible;\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "So, it's not hyacinths.\n\nOh. Hyacinth.\n\nUm. Anyway, so, it's not hyacinths, but as long as we're doing\ntemporally-reversed scenes, how about when the monster drowns the\nlittle girl who's tossing the flower petals into the pool in the\nKarloff _Frankenstein_? Here we have the time reversal where Dorcas\nis produced from the pool, and then the flower petals.\n\nI'm probably just seeing spectres.\n\nAdam" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I seem to see the wispy edges of a ghost there...\n\n~witz\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C3D31F.5040708@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-03-20T17:32:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Future Echoes: Hut in the Jungle +", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "i always took that as a straight clue. The fluid nature of time is evident in NS and many myths.\n\nThe story The Ziggurat contains a direct conversion of the slow-time-in-Elfland idea (where a moment takes 100 years, as in Wizard Knight) to space-time-travel science fiction ..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 12:54:46 -0400\nFrom: John Watkins \nSubject: Re: (urth) Future Echoes: Hut in the Jungle +\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID:\n\t<93d4039f0903200954r1cd8272j2f765b8ae676e706 at mail.gmail.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nDorcas thinks that the Claw works by reversing time. I've always thought\nthat that was wrong-headed--that it just works because it's divine\npower--magic.\n\nNow that I read this passage, however, I'm starting to come around to\nDorcas's view. My knowledge of physics is pretty minimal, but I have this\nvague idea that time slows down as one speeds up and would actually go\nbackwards if one could exceed the speed of light, which of course is\nimpossible. But if it *weren't *impossible, it would still be *impractical\n*because of the tremendous amount of energy it would take...unless one had\nthe ability to channel some kind of divine energy, flowing from a higher\nplane of existence, much like Severian does. Maybe that's *exactly *how the\nClaw works, and this thing about the flower leaping into being is a hint of\nthat." } ] }, { "message_id": "<519589.54056.qm@web50701.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-03-20T17:53:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Future Echoes: Hut in the Jungle +", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0903200954r1cd8272j2f765b8ae676e706@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Fri, 3/20/09, John Watkins wrote:\nDorcas thinks that the Claw works by reversing time. \nI've always thought\nthat that was wrong-headed--that it just works because\nit's divine power--magic.\n\nNow that I read this passage, however, I'm starting to\ncome around to\nDorcas's view. My knowledge of physics is pretty\nminimal, but I have this\nvague idea that time slows down as one speeds up and would\nactually go\nbackwards if one could exceed the speed of light, which of\ncourse is impossible." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\n\nIn Special Relativity, exceeding the speed of light would\nnot make time go backwards. Formally, it would make time\nan imaginary number (one reason to think exceeding the speed\nof light is impossible).\n\nHowever, still in SR, if you could exceed the speed of light,\nyou could go backwards in time in a roundabout way. Like\nthe lady named Bright, you could go from point A at a\ncertain time to point B at a similar time (whether before\nor after depends on your reference frame) and back to\npoint A at an earlier time than when you set out (another\nreason to think exceeding the speed of light is\nimpossible).\n\nAs I recall, there are suggestions of SR in the Sun books,\nbut I don't see them as \"hard science\" based on it. They're\nmuch more speculative.\n\nI too enjoy Jordon's idea that the goblet once held wine.\n\nBy the way, I annoyed Michael Andre-Driussi on this list\nby arguing with him about relativity (I think) and not\nmentioning till after he continued arguing that I teach\nphysics. So to avoid that--trust me, I'm a physicist\n(sort of).\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0903201056p124eb478m45c73cce70de95f7@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-20T17:56:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Future Echoes: Hut in the Jungle +", "in_reply_to": "<519589.54056.qm@web50701.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 1:53 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\n\n--- On Fri, 3/20/09, John Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dorcas thinks that the Claw works by reversing time.\nI've always thought\nthat that was wrong-headed--that it just works because\nit's divine power--magic.\n\nNow that I read this passage, however, I'm starting to\ncome around to\nDorcas's view. My knowledge of physics is pretty\nminimal, but I have this\nvague idea that time slows down as one speeds up and would\nactually go\nbackwards if one could exceed the speed of light, which of\ncourse is impossible." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...\n\nIn Special Relativity, exceeding the speed of light would\nnot make time go backwards. Formally, it would make time\nan imaginary number (one reason to think exceeding the speed\nof light is impossible).\n\nHowever, still in SR, if you could exceed the speed of light,\nyou could go backwards in time in a roundabout way. Like\nthe lady named Bright, you could go from point A at a\ncertain time to point B at a similar time (whether before\nor after depends on your reference frame) and back to\npoint A at an earlier time than when you set out (another\nreason to think exceeding the speed of light is\nimpossible)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This may or may not be a crucial plot point in An Evil Guest." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As I recall, there are suggestions of SR in the Sun books,\nbut I don't see them as \"hard science\" based on it. They're\nmuch more speculative.\n\nI too enjoy Jordon's idea that the goblet once held wine.\n\nBy the way, I annoyed Michael Andre-Driussi on this list\nby arguing with him about relativity (I think) and not\nmentioning till after he continued arguing that I teach\nphysics. So to avoid that--trust me, I'm a physicist\n(sort of)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks...as I said, my understanding of the topic is vague at best. I\nappreciate the correction." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jerry Friedman\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2009-03-20T21:57:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Future Echoes: Hut in the Jungle +", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0903200954r1cd8272j2f765b8ae676e706@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, 20 Mar 2009, John Watkins wrote:\nDorcas thinks that the Claw works by reversing time. I've always thought\nthat that was wrong-headed--that it just works because it's divine\npower--magic." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My thinking on this matter, which noone ever seems to agree with ;)\n(though perhaps it is too obvious), is that BotNS is a dialogue with\nseveral concepts of Frank Herbert's. So, the Autarch accesses the\nmemories of his predecessors after using a drug a la _Dune_, and humans can\nascend to godlike powers a la _The Godmakers_ by being able to channel\nphenomena from any time at a given physical location. IIRC, the example in\nthat book is the newly deified hero can easily destroy a object because there is always a \nhistory of superheated plasma for any location in the universe.\n\nSo, the superpowers are limited by previous and I guess future events\nat the given locus, so he can find out of season hyacinths at a lake,\nand reanimate someone who was alive at some time, but only if they were\nalive at that place the godling is operating from. Severian's\nfailures occur because there hasn't been an appropriate history to revert\nto eg the psychopathic woman in the oubliette.\n\nCheers, David Duffy." } ] }, { "message_id": "<273409710903201506j5795a23fv70eda0058f649a7@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-20T22:06:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Future Echoes: Hut in the Jungle +", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "*doesn't agree with*\n\n:)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 2:57 PM, David Duffy wrote:\nOn Fri, 20 Mar 2009, John Watkins wrote:\n\n Dorcas thinks that the Claw works by reversing time. I've always thought\nthat that was wrong-headed--that it just works because it's divine\npower--magic." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My thinking on this matter, which noone ever seems to agree with ;)\n(though perhaps it is too obvious), is that BotNS is a dialogue with\nseveral concepts of Frank Herbert's. So, the Autarch accesses the\nmemories of his predecessors after using a drug a la _Dune_, and humans can\nascend to godlike powers a la _The Godmakers_ by being able to channel\nphenomena from any time at a given physical location. IIRC, the example in\nthat book is the newly deified hero can easily destroy a object because\nthere is always a history of superheated plasma for any location in the\nuniverse.\n\nSo, the superpowers are limited by previous and I guess future events\nat the given locus, so he can find out of season hyacinths at a lake,\nand reanimate someone who was alive at some time, but only if they were\nalive at that place the godling is operating from. Severian's\nfailures occur because there hasn't been an appropriate history to revert\nto eg the psychopathic woman in the oubliette.\n\nCheers, David Duffy.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-20T22:50:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Future Echoes: Hut in the Jungle +", "in_reply_to": "<273409710903201506j5795a23fv70eda0058f649a7@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Fri, 20 Mar 2009, John Watkins wrote:\n\n Dorcas thinks that the Claw works by reversing time. I've always thought\nthat that was wrong-headed--that it just works because it's divine\npower--magic." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Shadow Chap 24 (Orb omnibus 1 p148)\n\"\"I would tilt it as far back as I can, until at last the evil runs out altogether,\" I said.\n\"It might be the good that would run out. But I am like you; I would bend time backward if I could.\"\"\n\nDorcas is the second speaker.\nvery interesting. \"I'm like you: I would bend time backward if I could\"\n\nDorcas intuits a lot of Severian's nature immediately in this scene.\nmore, from right before that quote above:\n\"In my ear, too softly, I think, even for Hildegrin to hear, Dorcas said, \"Yes, you were. Your face was full of beauty, of a kind of nobility. When the world is horrible, then thoughts are high, full of grace and greatness.\"\nI looked at her, thinking she was mocking me, but she was not,\"\n\n~Witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<697374.21043.qm@web50710.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-03-21T02:13:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Future Echoes: Hut in the Jungle +", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- On Fri, 3/20/09, David Duffy wrote:\n\nNo comment on Frank Herbert--I'm in denial about everything\nafter /Dune Messiah/." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So, the superpowers are limited by previous and I guess\nfuture events\nat the given locus, so he can find out of season hyacinths\nat a lake,\nand reanimate someone who was alive at some time, but only\nif they were\nalive at that place the godling is operating from. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\n\nThis seems reasonable. However, I'd like to pick a nit.\nThe water hyacinth (in our universe) isn't a hyacinth;\nit's in a different order.\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_hyacinth\n\nIt's in bloom from early spring to late fall (in the U.S.\nall year in the tropics?).\n\nhttp://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=1&taxon_id=200027394\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n " } ] } ] }