Subject: (urth) Blood Pudding (was Neighbors as Faeries)

From: Brian Lovely <brian at studiobl.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 18:36:39 +0000

Remember that hybrids are a big part of the story.  That long bit with
Silk/Horn, the farmer, and how to cross corn wasn't there for nothing.
Plus, in the books, transferring blood transfers more than...well, blood.
The blood confers some of the donor's being, creating a kind of hybrid.

Also, the neighbors resemble and/or are heavily associated with trees.  When
Krait is dying on Green, the trees are described in very human terms.  The
tree in the pit with Horn was a Neighbor who ate Horn, or consumed his
corpse, or somehow otherwise hybridized with him.

-Brian Lovely

Jordon Flato wrote:

I would agree that chasing the stag, falling in the Pit (which was in the
midst of a classic faerie circle of the ruins) represented a crossing over
of sorts, but I don't think it necessitates Horns death.  That is a turning
point in the narrative for a number of reasons, not the least of which is
that it brings Horn directly to the attention of the neighbors (without, I
would posit, necessitating a transfer of 'souls' into Horn).

I grant it is possible, but I just don't see it yet.

---

From: Jordon Flato <jordonflato at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 18:54:42 +0000

You know, I just read this part, and I can't find any reference to a Tree
being in there with him, much less anything close to resembling a tree
eating his corpse.  A Neighbor comes in (he thinks it a spider or
something).  As a matter of fact, I just reread that, and there is not
mention or even hint of a tree(s) being in the pit with Horn, so I don't
know where this comes from.  Can you cite anything?

I do see the Neigbors associated with Trees on some level, but not as
projections.  The Neighbors as for permission to visit this world, and
indicate they have left this world to go to another.  How is that connected
to the Trees?  The trees obviously don't leave (no pun intended).  Are the
trees Spirit Antennae or something which allow the Neighbors to transmit
themselves back to Blue?

I don't see nearly as direct a connection between the trees and the
Neighbors as some seem to, although I will admit there is some possible
connection, no doubt.

But there is no tree in the pit.  Not from textual references anyway.

RE:  Hybridization.  YES!  This is the one thing which is making me
seriously consider that a neighbor did something siginficant in this respect
to Horn in the pit.  It fits thematically.

On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 11:36 AM, Brian Lovely <brian at studiobl.com> wrote:

> _______________________________________________
> Urth Mailing List
> To post, write urth at urth.net
> Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.urth.net/pipermail/urth-urth.net/attachments/20090320/6b7e4bbc/attachment-0001.htm>

---

From: Adam Thornton <adam at io.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 19:00:53 +0000

On Mar 20, 2009, at 1:54 PM, Jordon Flato wrote:

> Are the trees Spirit Antennae or something which allow the Neighbors  
> to transmit themselves back to Blue?

If they're Antennae then they're on the Neighbors' heads, and  
therefore the Trees Are Their Hats.

Adam
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: smime.p7s
Type: application/pkcs7-signature
Size: 4988 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://lists.urth.net/pipermail/urth-urth.net/attachments/20090320/c79b55e6/attachment.bin>

---

From: Jordon Flato <jordonflato at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 19:02:43 +0000

Very well played sir!

On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 12:00 PM, Adam Thornton <adam at io.com> wrote:

>  Are the trees Spirit Antennae or something which allow the Neighbors to
>> transmit themselves back to Blue?
>>
>
> If they're Antennae then they're on the Neighbors' heads, and therefore the
> Trees Are Their Hats.
>
> Adam
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.urth.net/pipermail/urth-urth.net/attachments/20090320/1a9e21ac/attachment.htm>

---

From: Son of Witz <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org>
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 20:06:09 +0000

Jordon, what was that you were telling me about the Corn genetics that had a more metaphoric angle?  I can't quite remember, yet I seem to think there was more resonance for me than this literal stuff.

~witz

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Jordon Flato [mailto:jordonflato at gmail.com]
>Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 11:54 AM
>To: 'The Urth Mailing List'
>Subject: Re: (urth) Blood Pudding (was Neighbors as Faeries)
>

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 20:17:28 +0000

that IS a problem!

Sure, why not? ;)

------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 11:54:42 -0700
From: Jordon Flato <jordonflato at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: (urth) Blood Pudding (was Neighbors as Faeries)
To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
Message-ID:
	<273409710903201154l536d0fabgb7849b3c456b6466 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

---
avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.
Virus Database (VPS): 090319-0, 03/19/2009
Tested on: 3/20/2009 4:17:29 PM
avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software.
http://www.avast.com

---

From: Jordon Flato <jordonflato at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 20:48:31 +0000

Not ready to lay that out on the list yet, but maybe over lunch next week we
can spin it out. ;)

On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 1:06 PM, Son of Witz <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org>wrote:

> Jordon, what was that you were telling me about the Corn genetics that had
> a more metaphoric angle?  I can't quite remember, yet I seem to think there
> was more resonance for me than this literal stuff.
>
> ~witz
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.urth.net/pipermail/urth-urth.net/attachments/20090320/01700208/attachment-0001.htm>

---

From: Brian Lovely <brian at studiobl.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 13:43:24 +0000

Y'know, I think I got the tree in the pit from all the other tree-references
throughout the books.  Also because the Inhumi seem to be associated with
parasitic vines-Incanto's staff is a vine that has a kind of face on the
top, and appears to unsettle people, as if it is more than just a stick of
wood.  I put this together with the "bristly hand" (not sure of the
description from the book) that Horn feels, and got a tree.  Isn't there
also a "maw" of some kind?  I remember getting an image of a typical
fairy-story anthropomorphic tree with some kind of hollow serving as a
mouth.  "Spider" and "man with a long nose" made me think of various
impressions a dying man might get from a mobile, anthropomorphic tree.
 
.plus, there's the ruined greenhouse-dome Horn and Seawrack find.  Has
intelligent life on Green evolved from plants?  Are the Neighbors
tree-people, and know that they must retain their vigor through
hybridization?  As primitive as the Inhumi are without benefit of human
blood-like leeches or fish-did they begin as parasitic vines?   

Jordon Flato wrote:

themselves back to Blue?

connection, no doubt.

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.urth.net/pipermail/urth-urth.net/attachments/20090322/5b598735/attachment.htm>

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 17:23:52 +0000

The inhumi are usually referred to as reptilian, but I got the impression from somewhere that they did indeed evolve from plants. Wouldn't be surprised if the Neighbors did too.

It fits that they can survive when buried (thus, inhumi), and it fits the discussion of plant hybridization.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 09:43:24 -0400
From: "Brian Lovely" <brian at studiobl.com>
Subject: (urth)  Blood Pudding (was Neighbors as Faeries)
To: <urth at lists.urth.net>
Message-ID: <00e601c9aaf4$2c245310$846cf930$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

---
avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.
Virus Database (VPS): 090321-0, 03/21/2009
Tested on: 3/22/2009 1:23:54 PM
avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software.
http://www.avast.com

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 21:16:51 +0000

> The inhumi are usually referred to as reptilian, but I got the impression 
> from somewhere that they did
>indeed evolve from plants. Wouldn't be surprised if the Neighbors did too.

In some way that I haven't got my mind around, the Neighbors are trees on 
Blue and the Inhumi are vines. The story talks about the vines being the 
brides of the trees IIRC and the trees and vines being in endless war with 
each other. This fits with the faerie motif of the stories which Tolkien was 
also plugged into. It also works in a vague way with the Actaeon/Orpheus 
connection.

If Rose can become a robot, if Chenille can be come an inhumi and then a 
woman on Urth, if the Calde's girlfriend can become computer interface and 
then a goddess of love and then sybil and then a general, if a Neighbor can 
become a stag and then Horn and then Silk, THEN if wouldn't surprise me if 
Wolfe has figured out a way for inhumi to become vines.

However, I have presumed all the talk of plant hybridization relates to the 
Rajan after he is combined with Horn and Silk and whatever.

J.

---

From: Chris P <rasputin_ at hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 22:21:13 +0000

> Rajan after he is combined with Horn and Silk and whatever.

Chenille became an inhumi? Maybe it's been far too long since I read the books, but I don't recall that at all.

_________________________________________________________________
Internet Explorer 8 — Now Available. Faster, safer, easier.
http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/141323790/direct/01/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.urth.net/pipermail/urth-urth.net/attachments/20090322/51b2f3fe/attachment.htm>

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 22:32:05 +0000

> Chenille became an inhumi? Maybe it's been far too long since
>I read the books, but I don't recall that at all.

Well, there are doubters about almost everything in a Wolfe novel,
isn't there? But there's a scene where Jahlee comes into a bar after
feeding on a drunk victim. The Raja hears her voice and thinks she's
Chenille. Based on that, I'm convinced that Jahlee's mother fed on
Chenille and so Jahlee has her soul within her, just as Sinew's soul
is within Krait.

Heck, maybe I'm out there alone regarding Krait as well.

J.

---

From: Chris P <rasputin_ at hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 22:55:00 +0000

> Heck, maybe I'm out there alone regarding Krait as well.

This may just be an extension of the general problem of identity in the books. I don't have a problem with seeing Sinew within Krait, in a sense, but the idea that Krait IS Sinew seems off to me. Similarly with Chenille.

_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live? SkyDrive: Get 25 GB of free online storage.
http://windowslive.com/online/skydrive?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_skydrive_032009
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.urth.net/pipermail/urth-urth.net/attachments/20090322/bbc12126/attachment-0001.htm>

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 23:18:35 +0000

>This may just be an extension of the general problem of identity in the
>books. I don't have a problem with seeing Sinew within Krait, in a sense,
>but the idea that Krait IS Sinew seems off to me. Similarly with Chenille.
>
I'd say it is exactly the issue of identity in the books and I don't
suppose we're going come to a meeting of the minds on this. To the
extent that Rose becomes Marble, Sinew becomes Krait.

Resurrected Horn calls Krait his son. Add to that that IMO resurrected
Horn is not exactly Horn anymore and you see (as I see it anyway)
Wolfe is deliberately pushing the idea of identity to its conceptional
limits.

Also, note that the Raja calls Jahlee his sister and his daughter. And
he tells Hoof or Hide (during dream travel) that Jahlee could be his
sister.

J.

---

From: Stuart Hamm <hammstu at sbcglobal.net>
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 23:34:24 +0000

I just read that confusing scene and this makes as much sense as anything IMHO

???? Skype? stuart.hamm
myspace.com/stuhamm
? ??? stuarthamm.net

--- On Sun, 3/22/09, James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com> wrote:

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: (urth) Blood Pudding (was Neighbors as Faeries)
To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net>
Date: Sunday, March 22, 2009, 3:32 PM

J.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.urth.net/pipermail/urth-urth.net/attachments/20090322/cc65eeca/attachment.htm>

---

From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 00:55:46 +0000

> but the idea that Krait IS Sinew seems off to me. Similarly with Chenille.

Krait has a copy of Sinew's soul, but it's a copy of Sinew's Thomistic soul
from when Sinew was extremely young--they're more like identical twins then
like being "the same person" because Sinew's personality wasn't very
individualized at that point.

Chenille/Jahlee ought to be a little different--Jahlee would have the
personality of Chenille at an adult age, and so effectively be Chenille.

> Windows Live? SkyDrive: Get 25 GB of free online storage. Check it out.<http://windowslive.com/online/skydrive?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_skydrive_032009>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.urth.net/pipermail/urth-urth.net/attachments/20090322/04140750/attachment.htm>