# Blood Pudding (was Neighbors as Faeries) *The Urth list — 16 messages, 9 voices, 20 Mar 2009* > Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright > in each message remains with the person who wrote it. > Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original > archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than > retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. --- ### Brian Lovely *20 Mar 2009, 18:36* Remember that hybrids are a big part of the story. That long bit with Silk/Horn, the farmer, and how to cross corn wasn't there for nothing. Plus, in the books, transferring blood transfers more than...well, blood. The blood confers some of the donor's being, creating a kind of hybrid. Also, the neighbors resemble and/or are heavily associated with trees. When Krait is dying on Green, the trees are described in very human terms. The tree in the pit with Horn was a Neighbor who ate Horn, or consumed his corpse, or somehow otherwise hybridized with him. -Brian Lovely Jordon Flato wrote: I would agree that chasing the stag, falling in the Pit (which was in the midst of a classic faerie circle of the ruins) represented a crossing over of sorts, but I don't think it necessitates Horns death. That is a turning point in the narrative for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that it brings Horn directly to the attention of the neighbors (without, I would posit, necessitating a transfer of 'souls' into Horn). I grant it is possible, but I just don't see it yet. --- ### Jordon Flato *20 Mar 2009, 18:54 · in reply to Brian Lovely* You know, I just read this part, and I can't find any reference to a Tree being in there with him, much less anything close to resembling a tree eating his corpse. A Neighbor comes in (he thinks it a spider or something). As a matter of fact, I just reread that, and there is not mention or even hint of a tree(s) being in the pit with Horn, so I don't know where this comes from. Can you cite anything? I do see the Neigbors associated with Trees on some level, but not as projections. The Neighbors as for permission to visit this world, and indicate they have left this world to go to another. How is that connected to the Trees? The trees obviously don't leave (no pun intended). Are the trees Spirit Antennae or something which allow the Neighbors to transmit themselves back to Blue? I don't see nearly as direct a connection between the trees and the Neighbors as some seem to, although I will admit there is some possible connection, no doubt. But there is no tree in the pit. Not from textual references anyway. RE: Hybridization. YES! This is the one thing which is making me seriously consider that a neighbor did something siginficant in this respect to Horn in the pit. It fits thematically. > On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 11:36 AM, Brian Lovely wrote: > Remember that hybrids are a big part of the story. That long bit with > Silk/Horn, the farmer, and how to cross corn wasn't there for nothing. > Plus, in the books, transferring blood transfers more than...well, blood. > The blood confers some of the donor's being, creating a kind of hybrid. > > Also, the neighbors resemble and/or are heavily associated with trees. > When > Krait is dying on Green, the trees are described in very human terms. The > tree in the pit with Horn was a Neighbor who ate Horn, or consumed his > corpse, or somehow otherwise hybridized with him. > > -Brian Lovely > > Jordon Flato wrote: > > I would agree that chasing the stag, falling in the Pit (which was in the > midst of a classic faerie circle of the ruins) represented a crossing over > of sorts, but I don't think it necessitates Horns death. That is a turning > point in the narrative for a number of reasons, not the least of which is > that it brings Horn directly to the attention of the neighbors (without, I > would posit, necessitating a transfer of 'souls' into Horn). > > I grant it is possible, but I just don't see it yet. > > > _______________________________________________ --- ### Adam Thornton *20 Mar 2009, 19:00 · in reply to Jordon Flato* > On Mar 20, 2009, at 1:54 PM, Jordon Flato wrote: > Are the trees Spirit Antennae or something which allow the Neighbors > to transmit themselves back to Blue? If they're Antennae then they're on the Neighbors' heads, and therefore the Trees Are Their Hats. Adam --- ### Jordon Flato *20 Mar 2009, 19:02 · in reply to Adam Thornton* Very well played sir! > On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 12:00 PM, Adam Thornton wrote: > > On Mar 20, 2009, at 1:54 PM, Jordon Flato wrote: > > Are the trees Spirit Antennae or something which allow the Neighbors to > transmit themselves back to Blue? > If they're Antennae then they're on the Neighbors' heads, and therefore the > Trees Are Their Hats. > > Adam > _______________________________________________ --- ### Son of Witz *20 Mar 2009, 20:06 · follows Jordon Flato* Jordon, what was that you were telling me about the Corn genetics that had a more metaphoric angle? I can't quite remember, yet I seem to think there was more resonance for me than this literal stuff. ~witz > -----Original Message----- > From: Jordon Flato [mailto:jordonflato at gmail.com] > Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 11:54 AM > To: 'The Urth Mailing List' > Subject: Re: (urth) Blood Pudding (was Neighbors as Faeries) > > You know, I just read this part, and I can't find any reference to a Tree > being in there with him, much less anything close to resembling a tree > eating his corpse. A Neighbor comes in (he thinks it a spider or > something). As a matter of fact, I just reread that, and there is not > mention or even hint of a tree(s) being in the pit with Horn, so I don't > know where this comes from. Can you cite anything? > > I do see the Neigbors associated with Trees on some level, but not as > projections. The Neighbors as for permission to visit this world, and > indicate they have left this world to go to another. How is that connected > to the Trees? The trees obviously don't leave (no pun intended). Are the > trees Spirit Antennae or something which allow the Neighbors to transmit > themselves back to Blue? > > I don't see nearly as direct a connection between the trees and the > Neighbors as some seem to, although I will admit there is some possible > connection, no doubt. > > But there is no tree in the pit. Not from textual references anyway. > > RE: Hybridization. YES! This is the one thing which is making me > seriously consider that a neighbor did something siginficant in this respect > to Horn in the pit. It fits thematically. > > On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 11:36 AM, Brian Lovely wrote: >> Remember that hybrids are a big part of the story. That long bit with >> Silk/Horn, the farmer, and how to cross corn wasn't there for nothing. >> Plus, in the books, transferring blood transfers more than...well, blood. >> The blood confers some of the donor's being, creating a kind of hybrid. >> >> Also, the neighbors resemble and/or are heavily associated with trees. >> When >> Krait is dying on Green, the trees are described in very human terms. The >> tree in the pit with Horn was a Neighbor who ate Horn, or consumed his >> corpse, or somehow otherwise hybridized with him. >> >> -Brian Lovely >> >> Jordon Flato wrote: >> >> I would agree that chasing the stag, falling in the Pit (which was in the >> midst of a classic faerie circle of the ruins) represented a crossing over >> of sorts, but I don't think it necessitates Horns death. That is a turning >> point in the narrative for a number of reasons, not the least of which is >> that it brings Horn directly to the attention of the neighbors (without, I >> would posit, necessitating a transfer of 'souls' into Horn). >> >> I grant it is possible, but I just don't see it yet. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ --- ### David Stockhoff *20 Mar 2009, 20:17 · follows Son of Witz* that IS a problem! Sure, why not? ;) > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 11:54:42 -0700 > From: Jordon Flato > Subject: Re: (urth) Blood Pudding (was Neighbors as Faeries) > To: The Urth Mailing List > Message-ID: > <273409710903201154l536d0fabgb7849b3c456b6466 at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > > I do see the Neigbors associated with Trees on some level, but not as > projections. The Neighbors as for permission to visit this world, and > indicate they have left this world to go to another. How is that connected > to the Trees? The trees obviously don't leave (no pun intended). Are the > trees Spirit Antennae or something which allow the Neighbors to transmit > themselves back to Blue? --- ### Jordon Flato *20 Mar 2009, 20:48 · in reply to Son of Witz* Not ready to lay that out on the list yet, but maybe over lunch next week we can spin it out. ;) > On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 1:06 PM, Son of Witz wrote: > Jordon, what was that you were telling me about the Corn genetics that had > a more metaphoric angle? I can't quite remember, yet I seem to think there > was more resonance for me than this literal stuff. > > ~witz >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Jordon Flato [mailto:jordonflato at gmail.com] >> Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 11:54 AM >> To: 'The Urth Mailing List' >> Subject: Re: (urth) Blood Pudding (was Neighbors as Faeries) >> >> You know, I just read this part, and I can't find any reference to a Tree >> being in there with him, much less anything close to resembling a tree >> eating his corpse. A Neighbor comes in (he thinks it a spider or >> something). As a matter of fact, I just reread that, and there is not >> mention or even hint of a tree(s) being in the pit with Horn, so I don't >> know where this comes from. Can you cite anything? >> >> I do see the Neigbors associated with Trees on some level, but not as >> projections. The Neighbors as for permission to visit this world, and >> indicate they have left this world to go to another. How is that >> connected >> to the Trees? The trees obviously don't leave (no pun intended). Are the >> trees Spirit Antennae or something which allow the Neighbors to transmit >> themselves back to Blue? >> >> I don't see nearly as direct a connection between the trees and the >> Neighbors as some seem to, although I will admit there is some possible >> connection, no doubt. >> >> But there is no tree in the pit. Not from textual references anyway. >> >> RE: Hybridization. YES! This is the one thing which is making me >> seriously consider that a neighbor did something siginficant in this >> respect >> to Horn in the pit. It fits thematically. >> >> On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 11:36 AM, Brian Lovely >> wrote: >>> Remember that hybrids are a big part of the story. That long bit with >>> Silk/Horn, the farmer, and how to cross corn wasn't there for nothing. >>> Plus, in the books, transferring blood transfers more than...well, >>> blood. >>> The blood confers some of the donor's being, creating a kind of hybrid. >>> >>> Also, the neighbors resemble and/or are heavily associated with trees. >>> When >>> Krait is dying on Green, the trees are described in very human terms. > The > tree in the pit with Horn was a Neighbor who ate Horn, or consumed his > corpse, or somehow otherwise hybridized with him. >>> -Brian Lovely >>> >>> Jordon Flato wrote: >>> >>> I would agree that chasing the stag, falling in the Pit (which was in >>> the >>> midst of a classic faerie circle of the ruins) represented a crossing >>> over >>> of sorts, but I don't think it necessitates Horns death. That is a >>> turning >>> point in the narrative for a number of reasons, not the least of which >>> is >>> that it brings Horn directly to the attention of the neighbors (without, >>> I >>> would posit, necessitating a transfer of 'souls' into Horn). >>> >>> I grant it is possible, but I just don't see it yet. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ --- ### Brian Lovely *22 Mar 2009, 13:43 · follows Jordon Flato* Y'know, I think I got the tree in the pit from all the other tree-references throughout the books. Also because the Inhumi seem to be associated with parasitic vines-Incanto's staff is a vine that has a kind of face on the top, and appears to unsettle people, as if it is more than just a stick of wood. I put this together with the "bristly hand" (not sure of the description from the book) that Horn feels, and got a tree. Isn't there also a "maw" of some kind? I remember getting an image of a typical fairy-story anthropomorphic tree with some kind of hollow serving as a mouth. "Spider" and "man with a long nose" made me think of various impressions a dying man might get from a mobile, anthropomorphic tree. .plus, there's the ruined greenhouse-dome Horn and Seawrack find. Has intelligent life on Green evolved from plants? Are the Neighbors tree-people, and know that they must retain their vigor through hybridization? As primitive as the Inhumi are without benefit of human blood-like leeches or fish-did they begin as parasitic vines? Jordon Flato wrote: You know, I just read this part, and I can't find any reference to a Tree being in there with him, much less anything close to resembling a tree eating his corpse. A Neighbor comes in (he thinks it a spider or something). As a matter of fact, I just reread that, and there is not mention or even hint of a tree(s) being in the pit with Horn, so I don't know where this comes from. Can you cite anything? I do see the Neigbors associated with Trees on some level, but not as projections. The Neighbors as for permission to visit this world, and indicate they have left this world to go to another. How is that connected to the Trees? The trees obviously don't leave (no pun intended). Are the trees Spirit Antennae or something which allow the Neighbors to transmit themselves back to Blue? I don't see nearly as direct a connection between the trees and the Neighbors as some seem to, although I will admit there is some possible connection, no doubt. But there is no tree in the pit. Not from textual references anyway. RE: Hybridization. YES! This is the one thing which is making me seriously consider that a neighbor did something siginficant in this respect to Horn in the pit. It fits thematically. --- ### David Stockhoff *22 Mar 2009, 17:23 · follows Brian Lovely* The inhumi are usually referred to as reptilian, but I got the impression from somewhere that they did indeed evolve from plants. Wouldn't be surprised if the Neighbors did too. It fits that they can survive when buried (thus, inhumi), and it fits the discussion of plant hybridization. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 09:43:24 -0400 > From: "Brian Lovely" > Subject: (urth) Blood Pudding (was Neighbors as Faeries) > To: > Message-ID: <00e601c9aaf4$2c245310$846cf930$@com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Y'know, I think I got the tree in the pit from all the other tree-references > throughout the books. Also because the Inhumi seem to be associated with > parasitic vines-Incanto's staff is a vine that has a kind of face on the > top, and appears to unsettle people, as if it is more than just a stick of > wood. I put this together with the "bristly hand" (not sure of the > description from the book) that Horn feels, and got a tree. Isn't there > also a "maw" of some kind? I remember getting an image of a typical > fairy-story anthropomorphic tree with some kind of hollow serving as a > mouth. "Spider" and "man with a long nose" made me think of various > impressions a dying man might get from a mobile, anthropomorphic tree. > > .plus, there's the ruined greenhouse-dome Horn and Seawrack find. Has > intelligent life on Green evolved from plants? Are the Neighbors > tree-people, and know that they must retain their vigor through > hybridization? As primitive as the Inhumi are without benefit of human > blood-like leeches or fish-did they begin as parasitic vines? --- ### James Wynn *22 Mar 2009, 21:16 · in reply to David Stockhoff* > The inhumi are usually referred to as reptilian, but I got the impression > from somewhere that they did > indeed evolve from plants. Wouldn't be surprised if the Neighbors did too. > It fits that they can survive when buried (thus, inhumi), and it fits the > discussion of plant hybridization. In some way that I haven't got my mind around, the Neighbors are trees on Blue and the Inhumi are vines. The story talks about the vines being the brides of the trees IIRC and the trees and vines being in endless war with each other. This fits with the faerie motif of the stories which Tolkien was also plugged into. It also works in a vague way with the Actaeon/Orpheus connection. If Rose can become a robot, if Chenille can be come an inhumi and then a woman on Urth, if the Calde's girlfriend can become computer interface and then a goddess of love and then sybil and then a general, if a Neighbor can become a stag and then Horn and then Silk, THEN if wouldn't surprise me if Wolfe has figured out a way for inhumi to become vines. However, I have presumed all the talk of plant hybridization relates to the Rajan after he is combined with Horn and Silk and whatever. J. --- ### Chris P *22 Mar 2009, 22:21 · in reply to James Wynn* >> The inhumi are usually referred to as reptilian, but I got the impression >> from somewhere that they did >> indeed evolve from plants. Wouldn't be surprised if the Neighbors did too. >> It fits that they can survive when buried (thus, inhumi), and it fits the >> discussion of plant hybridization. > In some way that I haven't got my mind around, the Neighbors are trees on > Blue and the Inhumi are vines. The story talks about the vines being the > brides of the trees IIRC and the trees and vines being in endless war with > each other. This fits with the faerie motif of the stories which Tolkien was > also plugged into. It also works in a vague way with the Actaeon/Orpheus > connection. > > If Rose can become a robot, if Chenille can be come an inhumi and then a > woman on Urth, if the Calde's girlfriend can become computer interface and > then a goddess of love and then sybil and then a general, if a Neighbor can > become a stag and then Horn and then Silk, THEN if wouldn't surprise me if > Wolfe has figured out a way for inhumi to become vines. > > However, I have presumed all the talk of plant hybridization relates to the > Rajan after he is combined with Horn and Silk and whatever. > > J. Chenille became an inhumi? Maybe it's been far too long since I read the books, but I don't recall that at all. _________________________________________________________________ Internet Explorer 8 — Now Available. Faster, safer, easier. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/141323790/direct/01/ --- ### James Wynn *22 Mar 2009, 22:32 · in reply to Chris P* > Chenille became an inhumi? Maybe it's been far too long since > I read the books, but I don't recall that at all. Well, there are doubters about almost everything in a Wolfe novel, isn't there? But there's a scene where Jahlee comes into a bar after feeding on a drunk victim. The Raja hears her voice and thinks she's Chenille. Based on that, I'm convinced that Jahlee's mother fed on Chenille and so Jahlee has her soul within her, just as Sinew's soul is within Krait. Heck, maybe I'm out there alone regarding Krait as well. J. --- ### Chris P *22 Mar 2009, 22:55 · in reply to James Wynn* >> Chenille became an inhumi? Maybe it's been far too long since >> I read the books, but I don't recall that at all. > Well, there are doubters about almost everything in a Wolfe novel, > isn't there? But there's a scene where Jahlee comes into a bar after > feeding on a drunk victim. The Raja hears her voice and thinks she's > Chenille. Based on that, I'm convinced that Jahlee's mother fed on > Chenille and so Jahlee has her soul within her, just as Sinew's soul > is within Krait. > > Heck, maybe I'm out there alone regarding Krait as well. > > J. This may just be an extension of the general problem of identity in the books. I don't have a problem with seeing Sinew within Krait, in a sense, but the idea that Krait IS Sinew seems off to me. Similarly with Chenille. --- ### James Wynn *22 Mar 2009, 23:18 · in reply to Chris P* >> Well, there are doubters about almost everything in a Wolfe novel, >> isn't there? But there's a scene where Jahlee comes into a bar after >> feeding on a drunk victim. The Raja hears her voice and thinks she's >> Chenille. Based on that, I'm convinced that Jahlee's mother fed on >> Chenille and so Jahlee has her soul within her, just as Sinew's soul >> is within Krait. >> Heck, maybe I'm out there alone regarding Krait as well. > This may just be an extension of the general problem of identity in the > books. I don't have a problem with seeing Sinew within Krait, in a sense, > but the idea that Krait IS Sinew seems off to me. Similarly with Chenille. I'd say it is exactly the issue of identity in the books and I don't suppose we're going come to a meeting of the minds on this. To the extent that Rose becomes Marble, Sinew becomes Krait. Resurrected Horn calls Krait his son. Add to that that IMO resurrected Horn is not exactly Horn anymore and you see (as I see it anyway) Wolfe is deliberately pushing the idea of identity to its conceptional limits. Also, note that the Raja calls Jahlee his sister and his daughter. And he tells Hoof or Hide (during dream travel) that Jahlee could be his sister. J. --- ### Stuart Hamm *22 Mar 2009, 23:34 · in reply to James Wynn* I just read that confusing scene and this makes as much sense as anything IMHO ???? Skype? stuart.hamm myspace.com/stuhamm ? ??? stuarthamm.net --- On Sun, 3/22/09, James Wynn wrote: > From: James Wynn > Subject: Re: (urth) Blood Pudding (was Neighbors as Faeries) > To: "The Urth Mailing List" > Date: Sunday, March 22, 2009, 3:32 PM > Chenille became an inhumi? Maybe it's been far too long since > I read the books, but I don't recall that at all. Well, there are doubters about almost everything in a Wolfe novel, isn't there? But there's a scene where Jahlee comes into a bar after feeding on a drunk victim. The Raja hears her voice and thinks she's Chenille. Based on that, I'm convinced that Jahlee's mother fed on Chenille and so Jahlee has her soul within her, just as Sinew's soul is within Krait. Heck, maybe I'm out there alone regarding Krait as well. J. --- ### John Watkins *23 Mar 2009, 00:55 · in reply to Chris P* > On Sun, Mar 22, 2009 at 6:55 PM, Chris P wrote: >>> Chenille became an inhumi? Maybe it's been far too long since >>> I read the books, but I don't recall that at all. >> Well, there are doubters about almost everything in a Wolfe novel, >> isn't there? But there's a scene where Jahlee comes into a bar after >> feeding on a drunk victim. The Raja hears her voice and thinks she's >> Chenille. Based on that, I'm convinced that Jahlee's mother fed on >> Chenille and so Jahlee has her soul within her, just as Sinew's soul >> is within Krait. >> >> Heck, maybe I'm out there alone regarding Krait as well. >> >> J. > This may just be an extension of the general problem of identity in the > books. I don't have a problem with seeing Sinew within Krait, in a sense, > but the idea that Krait IS Sinew seems off to me. Similarly with Chenille. Krait has a copy of Sinew's soul, but it's a copy of Sinew's Thomistic soul from when Sinew was extremely young--they're more like identical twins then like being "the same person" because Sinew's personality wasn't very individualized at that point. Chenille/Jahlee ought to be a little different--Jahlee would have the personality of Chenille at an adult age, and so effectively be Chenille. > ------------------------------ > Windows Live? SkyDrive: Get 25 GB of free online storage. Check it out. > > _______________________________________________ ---