{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5382", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5382, "subject": "Gene Wolfe's Politics", "messages": 71, "voices": 16, "first": "2009-03-26T12:55:44+00:00", "last": "2009-04-02T17:10:29+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<958496.76164.qm@web180202.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "John Smith", "address": "jsmith2627 at att.net" }, "date": "2009-03-26T12:55:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Rereading \"On Blue's Waters,\" I came upon some of Horn's reflections on being a ruler: \"My advisors, who are all good, well-intentioned men, are forever suggesting that I get down to business, although they never phrase it quite so baldly. If action must be taken, they want it taken now, immediately...Immediate action is the soul of war, as I learned many years ago by observing General Mint. It is not the soul of peace...When a new burden must be laid upon the people, we should remove two, and look very carefully, first, at those we have chosen to remove. Those who sail fast do not sail for long, while what is written with great rapidity is rarely read--or worth reading.\" (OBW, Chap. 7)\n\nHorn expresses--I think--Gene Wolfe's view, a view of true conservatism. Our present society is certainly not perfect, but change should be slow and careful, lest we create something worse.\n\n\nBest wishes,\n\nJack" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1523.72.171.0.142.1238077325.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-26T14:22:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics", "in_reply_to": "<958496.76164.qm@web180202.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Cut two taxes when you lay one sounds like an excellent rule.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Rereading \"On Blue's Waters,\" I came upon some of Horn's reflections on\nbeing a ruler: \"My advisors, who are all good, well-intentioned men, are\nforever suggesting that I get down to business, although they never phrase\nit quite so baldly. If action must be taken, they want it taken now,\nimmediately...Immediate action is the soul of war, as I learned many years\nago by observing General Mint. It is not the soul of peace...When a new\nburden must be laid upon the people, we should remove two, and look very\ncarefully, first, at those we have chosen to remove. Those who sail fast\ndo not sail for long, while what is written with great rapidity is rarely\nread--or worth reading.\" (OBW, Chap. 7)\n\nHorn expresses--I think--Gene Wolfe's view, a view of true conservatism.\nOur present society is certainly not perfect, but change should be slow\nand careful, lest we create something worse.\n\n\nBest wishes,\n\nJack\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris P", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-26T18:55:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics", "in_reply_to": "<1523.72.171.0.142.1238077325.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A rather overly narrow interpretation of what constitutes a \"burden\", however." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "\"When small men begin to cast big shadows, it means that the sun is about to set.\" -- Lin Yutang" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 10:22:05 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: jsmith2627 at att.net; urth at lists.urth.net\nCC: urth at urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics\n\nCut two taxes when you lay one sounds like an excellent rule.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Rereading \"On Blue's Waters,\" I came upon some of Horn's reflections on\nbeing a ruler: \"My advisors, who are all good, well-intentioned men, are\nforever suggesting that I get down to business, although they never phrase\nit quite so baldly. If action must be taken, they want it taken now,\nimmediately...Immediate action is the soul of war, as I learned many years\nago by observing General Mint. It is not the soul of peace...When a new\nburden must be laid upon the people, we should remove two, and look very\ncarefully, first, at those we have chosen to remove. Those who sail fast\ndo not sail for long, while what is written with great rapidity is rarely\nread--or worth reading.\" (OBW, Chap. 7)\n\nHorn expresses--I think--Gene Wolfe's view, a view of true conservatism.\nOur present society is certainly not perfect, but change should be slow\nand careful, lest we create something worse.\n\n\nBest wishes,\n\nJack\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<273409710903261207r2918ee58h31cb882ef1298149@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-26T19:07:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, I seem to remember Silk not having much of a problem, and in fact\nbeing pretty anxious, to collect on those taxes, rather than removing any." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 11:55 AM, Chris P wrote:\n A rather overly narrow interpretation of what constitutes a \"burden\",\nhowever.\n\n-- \"When small men begin to cast big shadows, it means that the sun is\nabout to set.\" -- Lin Yutang" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 10:22:05 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: jsmith2627 at att.net; urth at lists.urth.net\nCC: urth at urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Cut two taxes when you lay one sounds like an excellent rule.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Rereading \"On Blue's Waters,\" I came upon some of Horn's reflections on\nbeing a ruler: \"My advisors, who are all good, well-intentioned men,\nare\nforever suggesting that I get down to business, although they never\nphrase\nit quite so baldly. If action must be taken, they want it taken now,\nimmediately...Immediate action is the soul of war, as I learned many\nyears\nago by observing General Mint. It is not the soul of peace...When a new\nburden must be laid upon the people, we should remove two, and look\nvery\ncarefully, first, at those we have chosen to remove. Those who sail\nfast\ndo not sail for long, while what is written with great rapidity is\nrarely\nread--or worth reading.\" (OBW, Chap. 7)\n\nHorn expresses--I think--Gene Wolfe's view, a view of true\nconservatism.\nOur present society is certainly not perfect, but change should be slow\nand careful, lest we create something worse.\n\n\nBest wishes,\n\nJack\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2509.67.142.130.16.1238095509.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-26T19:25:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A good practical place to start.\n\nYou can only make a new tax if you remove two others: you can only raise a\ntax if you reduce other taxes by twice the amount.\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A rather overly narrow interpretation of what constitutes a \"burden\",\nhowever.\n\n--\n\"When small men begin to cast big shadows, it means that the sun is about\nto set.\" -- Lin Yutang" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 10:22:05 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: jsmith2627 at att.net; urth at lists.urth.net\nCC: urth at urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics\n\nCut two taxes when you lay one sounds like an excellent rule.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Rereading \"On Blue's Waters,\" I came upon some of Horn's reflections\non\nbeing a ruler: \"My advisors, who are all good, well-intentioned men,\nare\nforever suggesting that I get down to business, although they never\nphrase\nit quite so baldly. If action must be taken, they want it taken now,\nimmediately...Immediate action is the soul of war, as I learned many\nyears\nago by observing General Mint. It is not the soul of peace...When a\nnew\nburden must be laid upon the people, we should remove two, and look\nvery\ncarefully, first, at those we have chosen to remove. Those who sail\nfast\ndo not sail for long, while what is written with great rapidity is\nrarely\nread--or worth reading.\" (OBW, Chap. 7)\n\nHorn expresses--I think--Gene Wolfe's view, a view of true\nconservatism.\nOur present society is certainly not perfect, but change should be\nslow\nand careful, lest we create something worse.\n\n\nBest wishes,\n\nJack\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370903261242r3fbdec07scd2f4b38ee8b5a29@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-26T19:42:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics", "in_reply_to": "<2509.67.142.130.16.1238095509.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 12:25 PM, wrote:\nA good practical place to start.\n\nYou can only make a new tax if you remove two others: you can only raise a\ntax if you reduce other taxes by twice the amount." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is a formula for bankruptcy." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8193C9B96E634444B8A3B6BB8966E046@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-26T20:03:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370903261242r3fbdec07scd2f4b38ee8b5a29@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "A good practical place to start.\nYou can only make a new tax if you remove two others: you can only raise \na\ntax if you reduce other taxes by twice the amount." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is a formula for bankruptcy." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think this resolution is exactly what Horn suggested; however, it is \nonly a formula for bankruptcy if one of the following is true:\n\nA.) The leaders of a government cannot curb their inclination to spend more \nand more--or commit themselves to spending more and more--without regard to \nthe money coming in (admittedly, a genuine impetus in democratic and \nautocratic governments)\n\nB.) There is some kind of law of good governance that demands governments \ncontinually spend ever larger percentages of the nation's economy (which I \ndon't consider true, and would inevitably lead to bankruptcy).\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<49CBE011.7090403@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-03-26T20:05:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics", "in_reply_to": "<8193C9B96E634444B8A3B6BB8966E046@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I see. So, the only tax power of government would be to reduce taxes, never to increase them. Great! Power to the people, and to government by, for, and of the people.\n\nEventually, no one would pay taxes and everyone would have to pay more for everything, so that only the rich could afford a bus trip across town. And then you would probably consider the burden on the people to be lifted.\n\nThis is like discussing Newtonian physics with a child who still throws food from her high chair just to watch it fall." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 15:25:09 -0400 (EDT)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics" } ] }, { "message_id": "<959121.65357.qm@web50706.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-03-26T20:16:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370903261242r3fbdec07scd2f4b38ee8b5a29@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Thu, 3/26/09, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "A good practical place to start.\n\nYou can only make a new tax if you remove two others:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "you can only raise a\ntax if you reduce other taxes by twice the amount.\n\nThis is a formula for bankruptcy." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For a while you just wouldn't be able to adjust your tax\npolicy, no matter how great the need. The bankruptcy wouldn't\nhappen till the emergency that required raising taxes.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris P", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-26T20:22:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics", "in_reply_to": "<8193C9B96E634444B8A3B6BB8966E046@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "A good practical place to start.\nYou can only make a new tax if you remove two others: you can only raise \na\ntax if you reduce other taxes by twice the amount." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This is a formula for bankruptcy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think this resolution is exactly what Horn suggested; however, it is \nonly a formula for bankruptcy if one of the following is true:\n\nA.) The leaders of a government cannot curb their inclination to spend more \nand more--or commit themselves to spending more and more--without regard to \nthe money coming in (admittedly, a genuine impetus in democratic and \nautocratic governments)\n\nB.) There is some kind of law of good governance that demands governments \ncontinually spend ever larger percentages of the nation's economy (which I \ndon't consider true, and would inevitably lead to bankruptcy).\n\nJ. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To pick nits, it depends on the size of the taxes being removed and the tax being levied. If you assume they are equal size (or for that matter any arrangement where the two removed taxes add up to more than the added one), you will go bankrupt even if spending remains equal.\n\nIn any event my point was that it's unlikely that Silk meant burdens of exactly the same type, because it simply wouldn't make sense as a guideline for *anything*. Ie,\n\n\"We need more soldiers for the war, let's draft 100.\" \n\"Well, OK, but only if we let 200 of our current soldiers go back to civilian life.\"\n\nThe idea can make sense if you assume the burdens come from different contexts; one relaxes laws and lowers taxes if you need to force mandatory civil service, or eases up in other ways if you suddenly need more money for an emergency, and so on. But this is all too nitpicky, because if you try to take the principle literally as a precise way to govern it's never going to work for anything. These kind of utterances just gesture toward a general truth." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370903261323q1ab5cf16g11a8b1dc60ce6623@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-26T20:23:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics", "in_reply_to": "<49CBE011.7090403@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sigh. You're just begging to have it explained how the magic Invisible Hand\nof the Marketplace would somehow make busses affordable. Libertarians\nare ineducable." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 1:05 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nI see. So, the only tax power of government would be to reduce taxes, never\nto increase them. Great! Power to the people, and to government by, for, and\nof the people.\n\nEventually, no one would pay taxes and everyone would have to pay more for\neverything, so that only the rich could afford a bus trip across town. And\nthen you would probably consider the burden on the people to be lifted.\n\nThis is like discussing Newtonian physics with a child who still throws food\nfrom her high chair just to watch it fall.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 15:25:09 -0400 (EDT)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nCc: urth at urth.net\nMessage-ID: <2509.67.142.130.16.1238095509.squirrel at brunians.org>\nContent-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1\n\nA good practical place to start.\n\nYou can only make a new tax if you remove two others: you can only raise a\ntax if you reduce other taxes by twice the amount.\n\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 090325-0, 03/25/2009\nTested on: 3/26/2009 4:05:38 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6055.72.171.0.139.1238099237.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-26T20:27:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370903261242r3fbdec07scd2f4b38ee8b5a29@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, people will pay less taxes and therefore have more money and therefore\ngo bankrupt less often.\n\nEvery penny of taxes is robbed at gunpoint from a citizen, mind you.\n\nYou're just not used to living in a well-run society, Dan'l. Where you\nlive, the police are at war with the majority section of the population.\n\nWell-run societies are inexpensive.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 12:25 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "A good practical place to start.\n\nYou can only make a new tax if you remove two others: you can only raise\na\ntax if you reduce other taxes by twice the amount." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is a formula for bankruptcy.\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370903261332k2dbe29fah1dbfa89734131259@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-26T20:32:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics", "in_reply_to": "<6055.72.171.0.139.1238099237.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 1:27 PM, wrote:\nNo, people will pay less taxes and therefore have more money and therefore\ngo bankrupt less often." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm talking about the gummint going bankrupt, silly boy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Every penny of taxes is robbed at gunpoint from a citizen, mind you." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If you take that as your given libertarianism almost makes sense. However,\nit isn't a very exact description of how taxation works." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You're just not used to living in a well-run society, Dan'l. Where you\nlive, the police are at war with the majority section of the population." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Then I suppose I should be glad I'm in the minority. The police seem\nto me to be on my side." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well-run societies are inexpensive." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, I find that to be the opposite of the truth.\n\nAny social system will work if run by perfect people. It is the\nimperfection of humans that f***s up both capitalism and\ncommunism.\n\nTherefore, the best-run society is that which does the most\nto compensate for the imperfections of the individual humans\nthat actually implement it. That seems to me to be a large,\ninefficient bureaucracy where nobody has the power to do\ntoo much." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Brochyus at aol.com", "address": "brochyus at aol.com" }, "date": "2009-03-26T20:32:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370903261332k2dbe29fah1dbfa89734131259@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "how do i get off this mailing list?\n \n \nIn a message dated 3/26/2009 4:27:30 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, \nbrunians at brunians.org writes:\n\nNo, people will pay less taxes and therefore have more money and therefore\ngo bankrupt less often.\n\nEvery penny of taxes is robbed at gunpoint from a citizen, mind you.\n\nYou're just not used to living in a well-run society, Dan'l. Where you\nlive, the police are at war with the majority section of the population.\n\nWell-run societies are inexpensive.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 12:25 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "A good practical place to start.\n\nYou can only make a new tax if you remove two others: you can only raise\na\ntax if you reduce other taxes by twice the amount." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is a formula for bankruptcy.\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n _______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris P", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-26T20:33:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics", "in_reply_to": "<6055.72.171.0.139.1238099237.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've heard this argument, but there is no background for evaluation on this scale. There has never been what I assume you would consider to be a well-run society that was also a political/economic/military superpower that actively pursues global interests.\n\nIf you are suggesting we should give up on trying to be a superpower, or our interventionism (not just in military but in economic terms) then hey, I don't think that's too bad an idea. Though some other people would very likely argue that it could never work and it's not an option for us right now. They might be right, I don't know. But it seems extremely unlikely that we can have our cake (carry on as we do now) and eat it too." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No, people will pay less taxes and therefore have more money and therefore\ngo bankrupt less often.\n\nEvery penny of taxes is robbed at gunpoint from a citizen, mind you.\n\nYou're just not used to living in a well-run society, Dan'l. Where you\nlive, the police are at war with the majority section of the population.\n\nWell-run societies are inexpensive.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 12:25 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "A good practical place to start.\n\nYou can only make a new tax if you remove two others: you can only raise\na\ntax if you reduce other taxes by twice the amount." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This is a formula for bankruptcy.\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4052.72.171.0.139.1238099615.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-26T20:33:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics", "in_reply_to": "<49CBE011.7090403@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or like discussing politics with someone who cannot say anything at all\nwithout adding terms of abuse?\n\nHave you ever tried to argue without insulting your interlocutor? It is\nrefreshing.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I see. So, the only tax power of government would be to reduce taxes,\nnever to increase them. Great! Power to the people, and to government by,\nfor, and of the people.\n\nEventually, no one would pay taxes and everyone would have to pay more for\neverything, so that only the rich could afford a bus trip across town. And\nthen you would probably consider the burden on the people to be lifted.\n\nThis is like discussing Newtonian physics with a child who still throws\nfood from her high chair just to watch it fall.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 15:25:09 -0400 (EDT)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49CBE9B9.4050103@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-03-26T20:46:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics", "in_reply_to": "<4052.72.171.0.139.1238099615.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Damn straight. Why, in the Kalahari---before the mining corporations destroyed them---the !Kung and San had a paradise. No war, no money, nothing but storytelling and digging for roots and grubs. Very cheap living. Libertarians every one, living in their gated communities." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 7\nDate: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 16:27:17 -0400 (EDT)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: <6055.72.171.0.139.1238099237.squirrel at brunians.org>\nContent-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1\n\nNo, people will pay less taxes and therefore have more money and therefore\ngo bankrupt less often.\n\nEvery penny of taxes is robbed at gunpoint from a citizen, mind you.\n\nYou're just not used to living in a well-run society, Dan'l. Where you\nlive, the police are at war with the majority section of the population.\n\nWell-run societies are inexpensive." } ] }, { "message_id": "<9120.72.171.0.139.1238100412.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-26T20:46:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370903261332k2dbe29fah1dbfa89734131259@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 1:27 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "No, people will pay less taxes and therefore have more money and\ntherefore go bankrupt less often." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm talking about the gummint going bankrupt, silly boy." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's pretty much bankrupt up here.\n\nStill a lot better place to live than where you are." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Every penny of taxes is robbed at gunpoint from a citizen, mind you." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If you take that as your given libertarianism almost makes sense. However,\nit isn't a very exact description of how taxation works." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Do you really believe this? Come on, man. I know you got blinders to make\na carriage horse proud, but seriously." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You're just not used to living in a well-run society, Dan'l. Where you\nlive, the police are at war with the majority section of the population." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Then I suppose I should be glad I'm in the minority. The police seem\nto me to be on my side." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Whatever you say, white man." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well-run societies are inexpensive." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Actually, I find that to be the opposite of the truth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Like I said, the county is pretty much broke up here. No one cares. No one\nparticularly suffers. No murders, very little personal crime. close to\nzero property crime. Volunteer fire departments work very well." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Therefore, the best-run society is that which does the most\nto compensate for the imperfections of the individual humans\nthat actually implement it. That seems to me to be a large,\ninefficient bureaucracy where nobody has the power to do\ntoo much." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On your dime....\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<13828.72.171.0.139.1238100495.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-26T20:48:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Unplug your computer.\n\nDon't plug it back in.\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "how do i get off this mailing list?\n\n\nIn a message dated 3/26/2009 4:27:30 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,\nbrunians at brunians.org writes:\n\nNo, people will pay less taxes and therefore have more money and\ntherefore\ngo bankrupt less often.\n\nEvery penny of taxes is robbed at gunpoint from a citizen, mind you.\n\nYou're just not used to living in a well-run society, Dan'l. Where you\nlive, the police are at war with the majority section of the population.\n\nWell-run societies are inexpensive.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 12:25 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "A good practical place to start.\n\nYou can only make a new tax if you remove two others: you can only\nraise\na\ntax if you reduce other taxes by twice the amount." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This is a formula for bankruptcy.\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n _______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49CBEA8C.6090205@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-03-26T20:50:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics", "in_reply_to": "<13828.72.171.0.139.1238100495.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know where Dan'l lives, but where I live (the US) the police are in fact at war with a significant minority of the population. We imprison more people than Russia or China. \n\nBut that's in MY universe, of course. No telling what universe Josh lives in. I believes he has a complicated theory to explain it involving multiple dimensions and time warps." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 7\nDate: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 16:27:17 -0400 (EDT)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: <6055.72.171.0.139.1238099237.squirrel at brunians.org>\nContent-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1\n\nNo, people will pay less taxes and therefore have more money and therefore\ngo bankrupt less often.\n\nEvery penny of taxes is robbed at gunpoint from a citizen, mind you.\n\nYou're just not used to living in a well-run society, Dan'l. Where you\nlive, the police are at war with the majority section of the population.\n\nWell-run societies are inexpensive." } ] }, { "message_id": "<49CBEBBF.6070106@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-03-26T20:55:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics", "in_reply_to": "<49CBEA8C.6090205@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure, but that's not my policy with \"interlocutors\" as willfully obtuse and plainly insane as you. I have never seen you actually respond to any point. You merely spout idiocies and evade reasoned and factual responses.\n\nYou have your policy, I have mine. Put up or shut it.\n\nAnyway, this is hardly politics. You're simply arguing for mindless theft on a grand scale. If that's politics in your universe, please go back and stay there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 3\nDate: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 16:33:35 -0400 (EDT)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-26T20:57:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics", "in_reply_to": "<49CBEBBF.6070106@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "**** ANY TAX ADVICE IN THIS COMMUNICATION IS NOT INTENDED OR WRITTEN BY BotNS TO BE USED, AND CANNOT BE USED, BY A CLIENT OR ANY OTHER PERSON OR ENTITY FOR THE PURPOSE OF (i) AVOIDING PENALTIES THAT MAY BE IMPOSED ON ANY TAXPAYER OR (ii) PROMOTING, MARKETING OR RECOMMENDING TO ANOTHER PARTY ANY MATTERS ADDRESSED HEREIN. ***\n\nAny advice in this communication is limited to the conclusions specifically set forth herein and is based on the completeness and accuracy of the stated facts, assumptions and/or representations included. In rendering our advice, we may consider tax authorities that are subject to change, retroactively and/or prospectively, and any such changes could affect the validity of our advice. We will not update our advice for subsequent changes or modifications to the law and regulations, or to the judicial and administrative interpretations thereof.\n\nThe advice or other information in this document was prepared for the sole benefit of BotNS’s client and may not be relied upon by any other person or organization. BotNS accepts no responsibility or liability in respect of this document to any person or organization other than BotNS’s client." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370903261357t2d44cb69r92d8359be7df579f@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-26T20:57:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics", "in_reply_to": "<9120.72.171.0.139.1238100412.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 1:46 PM, wrote:\nI'm talking about the gummint going bankrupt, silly boy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's pretty much bankrupt up here.\n\nStill a lot better place to live than where you are." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd hate it where you are. I like cities. You know - civilization,\nin the root sense of the word." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Every penny of taxes is robbed at gunpoint from a citizen, mind you." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If you take that as your given libertarianism almost makes sense. However,\nit isn't a very exact description of how taxation works." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Do you really believe this?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Absolutely. The only people from whom taxes are extracted by force\nare the anti-social few who don't pony up voluntarily.\n\nSociety is like a bunch of people who decide they want pizza on a\nFriday night. Everybody chips in a few bucks. You can argue about\nhow to fairly divide the cost -- by who eats most, or who can afford\nmost, or just even-Steven, or what -- and you can argue about how\nmuch and what kind of pizza to order (and there's always the one\nguy holding out for takeaway curry), but if you want to be part of\nthe pizza party, you chip in.\n\nThat's taxes. Simple as that. Instead of \"pizza,\" you get things\nlike \"roads\" and \"police protection,\" but the general idea applies." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Come on, man. I know you got blinders to make\na carriage horse proud, but seriously." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ahem. This is the guy who complains about incivil discussion?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Whatever you say, white man." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "See above. When you can't say something substantive, you\nfall back on insult." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Therefore, the best-run society is that which does the most\nto compensate for the imperfections of the individual humans\nthat actually implement it. That seems to me to be a large,\ninefficient bureaucracy where nobody has the power to do\ntoo much." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On your dime...." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's right. On my dime. I got no problems with chipping in\nmy share for the services society provides." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<135554.83698.qm@web32404.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-03-26T21:08:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370903261357t2d44cb69r92d8359be7df579f@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So, here's a question, with the answer supplied, that ends up being a bit of paradox. Question: when a thread has far outlived its usefulness, and is clogging up people's inboxes AND driving people off the list who want to talk about Gene Wolfe, how does it die a natural death?\nAnswer: Responsible people resist their need to have the last word and STOP POSTING por favor. By the way, Witz, that was pretty damn funny.\n\n\nDoggerel\nwww.don-doggett.blogspot.com" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Thu, 3/26/09, Son of Witz wrote:\nFrom: Son of Witz \nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Thursday, March 26, 2009, 1:57 PM\n**** ANY TAX ADVICE IN THIS\nCOMMUNICATION IS NOT INTENDED OR WRITTEN BY BotNS TO BE\nUSED, AND CANNOT BE USED, BY A CLIENT OR ANY OTHER PERSON OR\nENTITY FOR THE PURPOSE OF (i) AVOIDING PENALTIES THAT MAY BE\nIMPOSED ON ANY TAXPAYER OR (ii) PROMOTING, MARKETING OR\nRECOMMENDING TO ANOTHER PARTY ANY MATTERS ADDRESSED HEREIN.\n***\n\nAny advice in this communication is limited to the\nconclusions specifically set forth herein and is based on\nthe completeness and accuracy of the stated facts,\nassumptions and/or representations included. In rendering\nour advice, we may consider tax authorities that are subject\nto change, retroactively and/or prospectively, and any such\nchanges could affect the validity of our advice. We will not\nupdate our advice for subsequent changes or modifications to\nthe law and regulations, or to the judicial and\nadministrative interpretations thereof.\n\nThe advice or other information in this document was\nprepared for the sole benefit of BotNS’s client and may not\nbe relied upon by any other person or organization. BotNS\naccepts no responsibility or liability in respect of this\ndocument to any person or organization other than BotNS’s\nclient.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370903261410x1f37b1b8x6aff74a98075c5aa@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-26T21:10:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics", "in_reply_to": "<135554.83698.qm@web32404.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're right. Here I am joining in the politics again and I swore I wouldn't.\n\nDamn drugs..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 2:08 PM, don doggett wrote:\n\nSo, here's a question, with the answer supplied, that ends up being a bit of paradox. Question: when a thread has far outlived its usefulness, and is clogging up people's inboxes AND driving people off the list who want to talk about Gene Wolfe, how does it die a natural death?\nAnswer: Responsible people resist their need to have the last word and STOP POSTING por favor. By the way, Witz, that was pretty damn funny.\n\n\nDoggerel\nwww.don-doggett.blogspot.com\n\n\n--- On Thu, 3/26/09, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: Son of Witz \nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Thursday, March 26, 2009, 1:57 PM\n**** ANY TAX ADVICE IN THIS\nCOMMUNICATION IS NOT INTENDED OR WRITTEN BY BotNS TO BE\nUSED, AND CANNOT BE USED, BY A CLIENT OR ANY OTHER PERSON OR\nENTITY FOR THE PURPOSE OF (i) AVOIDING PENALTIES THAT MAY BE\nIMPOSED ON ANY TAXPAYER OR (ii) PROMOTING, MARKETING OR\nRECOMMENDING TO ANOTHER PARTY ANY MATTERS ADDRESSED HEREIN.\n***\n\nAny advice in this communication is limited to the\nconclusions specifically set forth herein and is based on\nthe completeness and accuracy of the stated facts,\nassumptions and/or representations included. In rendering\nour advice, we may consider tax authorities that are subject\nto change, retroactively and/or prospectively, and any such\nchanges could affect the validity of our advice. We will not\nupdate our advice for subsequent changes or modifications to\nthe law and regulations, or to the judicial and\nadministrative interpretations thereof.\n\nThe advice or other information in this document was\nprepared for the sole benefit of BotNS’s client and may not\nbe relied upon by any other person or organization. BotNS\naccepts no responsibility or liability in respect of this\ndocument to any person or organization other than BotNS’s\nclient.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<273409710903261411t358ea5edu7491180b75b690f1@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-26T21:11:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370903261410x1f37b1b8x6aff74a98075c5aa@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hey, there's a swell new thread on the Secret of the Inhumi! That's a good\ndistraction from all the politics!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 2:10 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nYou're right. Here I am joining in the politics again and I swore I\nwouldn't.\n\nDamn drugs...\n\nOn Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 2:08 PM, don doggett wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So, here's a question, with the answer supplied, that ends up being a bit\nof paradox. Question: when a thread has far outlived its usefulness, and is\nclogging up people's inboxes AND driving people off the list who want to\ntalk about Gene Wolfe, how does it die a natural death?\nAnswer: Responsible people resist their need to have the last word and\nSTOP POSTING por favor. By the way, Witz, that was pretty damn funny.\n\n\nDoggerel\nwww.don-doggett.blogspot.com\n\n\n--- On Thu, 3/26/09, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "From: Son of Witz \nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Thursday, March 26, 2009, 1:57 PM\n**** ANY TAX ADVICE IN THIS\nCOMMUNICATION IS NOT INTENDED OR WRITTEN BY BotNS TO BE\nUSED, AND CANNOT BE USED, BY A CLIENT OR ANY OTHER PERSON OR\nENTITY FOR THE PURPOSE OF (i) AVOIDING PENALTIES THAT MAY BE\nIMPOSED ON ANY TAXPAYER OR (ii) PROMOTING, MARKETING OR\nRECOMMENDING TO ANOTHER PARTY ANY MATTERS ADDRESSED HEREIN.\n***\n\nAny advice in this communication is limited to the\nconclusions specifically set forth herein and is based on\nthe completeness and accuracy of the stated facts,\nassumptions and/or representations included. In rendering\nour advice, we may consider tax authorities that are subject\nto change, retroactively and/or prospectively, and any such\nchanges could affect the validity of our advice. We will not\nupdate our advice for subsequent changes or modifications to\nthe law and regulations, or to the judicial and\nadministrative interpretations thereof.\n\nThe advice or other information in this document was\nprepared for the sole benefit of BotNS’s client and may not\nbe relied upon by any other person or organization. BotNS\naccepts no responsibility or liability in respect of this\ndocument to any person or organization other than BotNS’s\nclient.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-26T21:19:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics", "in_reply_to": "<273409710903261411t358ea5edu7491180b75b690f1@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "By the way, Witz, that was pretty damn funny." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was hoping so. my last words.\nthere was some good stuff in this thread though." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Thu, 3/26/09, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: Son of Witz \nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Thursday, March 26, 2009, 1:57 PM\n**** ANY TAX ADVICE IN THIS\nCOMMUNICATION IS NOT INTENDED OR WRITTEN BY BotNS TO BE\nUSED, AND CANNOT BE USED, BY A CLIENT OR ANY OTHER PERSON OR\nENTITY FOR THE PURPOSE OF (i) AVOIDING PENALTIES THAT MAY BE\nIMPOSED ON ANY TAXPAYER OR (ii) PROMOTING, MARKETING OR\nRECOMMENDING TO ANOTHER PARTY ANY MATTERS ADDRESSED HEREIN.\n***\n\nAny advice in this communication is limited to the\nconclusions specifically set forth herein and is based on\nthe completeness and accuracy of the stated facts,\nassumptions and/or representations included. In rendering\nour advice, we may consider tax authorities that are subject\nto change, retroactively and/or prospectively, and any such\nchanges could affect the validity of our advice. We will not\nupdate our advice for subsequent changes or modifications to\nthe law and regulations, or to the judicial and\nadministrative interpretations thereof.\n\nThe advice or other information in this document was\nprepared for the sole benefit of BotNS’s client and may not\nbe relied upon by any other person or organization. BotNS\naccepts no responsibility or liability in respect of this\ndocument to any person or organization other than BotNS’s\nclient.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49CBF3B4.50801@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-03-26T21:29:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Translation: Josh cannot be stopped, because he cannot stop himself. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 2\nDate: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 16:48:15 -0400 (EDT)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: <13828.72.171.0.139.1238100495.squirrel at brunians.org>\nContent-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1\n\n\nUnplug your computer.\n\nDon't plug it back in." } ] }, { "message_id": "<26A5951A09174EFA8214C757C2183F0B@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-26T21:58:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics Meets The Secret of the Inhumi", "in_reply_to": "<135554.83698.qm@web32404.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So, here's a question, with the answer supplied, that ends up being a bit \nof paradox. Question: when a thread has far outlived its usefulness, and \nis clogging up people's inboxes AND driving people off the list who want \nto talk about Gene Wolfe, how does it die a natural death?\nAnswer: Responsible people resist their need to have the last word and \nSTOP POSTING por favor. By the way, Witz, that was pretty damn funny." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That is sooo like the secret of the inhumi! " } ] }, { "message_id": "<6231.67.142.130.26.1238104845.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-26T22:00:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics", "in_reply_to": "<49CBEA8C.6090205@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l lives in Alameda County, California.\n\nI live in Trinity County, California.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't know where Dan'l lives, but where I live (the US) the police are\nin fact at war with a significant minority of the population. We imprison\nmore people than Russia or China.\n\nBut that's in MY universe, of course. No telling what universe Josh lives\nin. I believes he has a complicated theory to explain it involving\nmultiple dimensions and time warps.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 7\nDate: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 16:27:17 -0400 (EDT)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: <6055.72.171.0.139.1238099237.squirrel at brunians.org>\nContent-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1\n\nNo, people will pay less taxes and therefore have more money and therefore\ngo bankrupt less often.\n\nEvery penny of taxes is robbed at gunpoint from a citizen, mind you.\n\nYou're just not used to living in a well-run society, Dan'l. Where you\nlive, the police are at war with the majority section of the population.\n\nWell-run societies are inexpensive.\n\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 090325-0, 03/25/2009\nTested on: 3/26/2009 4:50:21 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<713613.32777.qm@web32403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "kingwukong at yahoo.com", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-03-26T22:30:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics Meets The Secret of the Inhumi", "in_reply_to": "<26A5951A09174EFA8214C757C2183F0B@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Doggerel\nwww.don-doggett.blogspot.com" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Thu, 3/26/09, James Wynn wrote:\n\nThat is sooo like the secret of the inhumi! " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I do tend to be more intuitive than rational when it comes to fiction. Gold star for Don. Btw, In the name of George Romero, Max Brooks, and Robert Kirkman, I am now diagnosing \"Gene Wolfe's Politics\" as a zombie thread. If you touch it and it eats your brains, don't blame me.\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-03-27T02:32:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics", "in_reply_to": "<49CBE011.7090403@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 26, 2009, at 3:05 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nThis is like discussing Newtonian physics with a child who still \nthrows food from her high chair just to watch it fall." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I see that someone understands how I felt about 2001-2008.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49CC5FC8.6060509@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-03-27T05:10:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics", "in_reply_to": "<6055.72.171.0.139.1238099237.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nNo, people will pay less taxes and therefore have more money and therefore\ngo bankrupt less often.\n\nEvery penny of taxes is robbed at gunpoint from a citizen, mind you.\n\nYou're just not used to living in a well-run society, Dan'l. Where you\nlive, the police are at war with the majority section of the population.\n\nWell-run societies are inexpensive." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Can you point out some example well-run, non-robbing societies that \nanyone here would want to live in?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49CC6189.4040502@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-03-27T05:18:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370903261357t2d44cb69r92d8359be7df579f@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nSociety is like a bunch of people who decide they want pizza on a\nFriday night. Everybody chips in a few bucks. You can argue about\nhow to fairly divide the cost -- by who eats most, or who can afford\nmost, or just even-Steven, or what -- and you can argue about how\nmuch and what kind of pizza to order (and there's always the one\nguy holding out for takeaway curry), but if you want to be part of\nthe pizza party, you chip in.\n\nThat's taxes. Simple as that. Instead of \"pizza,\" you get things\nlike \"roads\" and \"police protection,\" but the general idea applies." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Currently you don't get police protection in the US, only the \n_possibility_ of police protection, and there's no refunds or recourse \nif they don't respond." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's right. On my dime. I got no problems with chipping in\nmy share for the services society provides." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What if you don't care for pizza? Or find much of the services society \nprovides unnecessary, unreliable, or even invasive?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1647.67.142.130.14.1238133632.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-27T06:00:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics", "in_reply_to": "<49CC5FC8.6060509@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sorry, I've stopped participating.\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "No, people will pay less taxes and therefore have more money and\ntherefore\ngo bankrupt less often.\n\nEvery penny of taxes is robbed at gunpoint from a citizen, mind you.\n\nYou're just not used to living in a well-run society, Dan'l. Where you\nlive, the police are at war with the majority section of the population.\n\nWell-run societies are inexpensive." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Can you point out some example well-run, non-robbing societies that\nanyone here would want to live in?\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49CC8D94.7080606@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-03-27T08:25:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics", "in_reply_to": "<1647.67.142.130.14.1238133632.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nSorry, I've stopped participating." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That is not an option in our society. :P" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7C5DB9EE-9F01-432E-8E6F-5C3F135CCE06@comcast.net>", "from": { "name": "Steven", "address": "mcquaryq at comcast.net" }, "date": "2009-03-28T00:29:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370903261332k2dbe29fah1dbfa89734131259@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 26, 2009, at 4:32 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nI'm talking about the gummint going bankrupt, silly boy." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gummints don't go bankrupt, having produced nothing in the first \nplace. They may print money, which will devalue all the goods and \nservices of the society and bring about its ruination, of course. \nThey have that power, but they don't have the power to create money \nin the original sense of the word, as a store of value. You may or \nmay not be aware that businesses don't pay taxes either, individuals \ndo. Businesses pass them along to their customers to pay.\n\nSteven Bowen\nhttp://bowenfinearts.com/" } ] }, { "message_id": "<14480.67.142.130.20.1238204745.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-28T01:45:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics", "in_reply_to": "<7C5DB9EE-9F01-432E-8E6F-5C3F135CCE06@comcast.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is why 'raising taxes on the rich' doesn't work, for those of you who\nhave been paying attention.\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 26, 2009, at 4:32 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm talking about the gummint going bankrupt, silly boy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gummints don't go bankrupt, having produced nothing in the first\nplace. They may print money, which will devalue all the goods and\nservices of the society and bring about its ruination, of course.\nThey have that power, but they don't have the power to create money\nin the original sense of the word, as a store of value. You may or\nmay not be aware that businesses don't pay taxes either, individuals\ndo. Businesses pass them along to their customers to pay.\n\nSteven Bowen\nhttp://bowenfinearts.com/\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<273409710903271929m3722a193vdae1003b62728ea8@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-28T02:29:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics", "in_reply_to": "<14480.67.142.130.20.1238204745.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm hardly worried about being charged more for my credit default swaps,\nthank you very much. I think they can raise the prices on those as much as\nthe fricken want.\n\nHave fun with all the potholes, Mrs. Raynd." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 6:45 PM, wrote:\nThis is why 'raising taxes on the rich' doesn't work, for those of you who\nhave been paying attention.\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Mar 26, 2009, at 4:32 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I'm talking about the gummint going bankrupt, silly boy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gummints don't go bankrupt, having produced nothing in the first\nplace. They may print money, which will devalue all the goods and\nservices of the society and bring about its ruination, of course.\nThey have that power, but they don't have the power to create money\nin the original sense of the word, as a store of value. You may or\nmay not be aware that businesses don't pay taxes either, individuals\ndo. Businesses pass them along to their customers to pay.\n\nSteven Bowen\nhttp://bowenfinearts.com/\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<96D8ABC4-853C-446D-9745-63FE64C0A2B7@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-03-28T02:31:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics", "in_reply_to": "<14480.67.142.130.20.1238204745.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 27, 2009, at 8:45 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nThis is why 'raising taxes on the rich' doesn't work, for those of \nyou who\nhave been paying attention." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yabbut raising taxes on the poor doesn't help either because they \nain't got no money.\n\nI am of the strong opinion that, rather than inviting the CEOs of the \n15 biggest banks in the country to the Oval Office and talking to \nthem, we should simply hang them from lampposts by their own \nintestines as a warning to the others. It would be much cheaper and \nmuch more effectual in the long--hell, even the medium--run.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49CD8D0A.8020901@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-03-28T02:35:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics", "in_reply_to": "<96D8ABC4-853C-446D-9745-63FE64C0A2B7@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You mean it doesn't work in destroying the middle class? \n\nQuite so, and well put." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 3\nDate: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 21:45:45 -0400 (EDT)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49CD8FD0.8030204@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-03-28T02:47:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics", "in_reply_to": "<49CD8D0A.8020901@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah, but the lure of vast wealth is a strong motivator. That's why there were pirates on the Spanish Main: because the Spanish shipped gold from west to east. More will take their place, chastened only a little.\n\nI agree that the calculus must be shifted. A lot less chance of success---no more easy money---and a little more risk of serious failure, and the investment banks will sober up. \n\nThe regular banks need to be smashed into little pieces.\n\nBut those are MY politics." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 21:31:10 -0500\nFrom: Adam Thornton \nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: <96D8ABC4-853C-446D-9745-63FE64C0A2B7 at io.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"us-ascii\"; Format=\"flowed\";\n\tDelSp=\"yes\"\n\n\nOn Mar 27, 2009, at 8:45 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This is why 'raising taxes on the rich' doesn't work, for those of \nyou who\nhave been paying attention." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n\nYabbut raising taxes on the poor doesn't help either because they \nain't got no money.\n\nI am of the strong opinion that, rather than inviting the CEOs of the \n15 biggest banks in the country to the Oval Office and talking to \nthem, we should simply hang them from lampposts by their own \nintestines as a warning to the others. It would be much cheaper and \nmuch more effectual in the long--hell, even the medium--run.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6109.67.142.130.20.1238211655.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-28T03:40:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics", "in_reply_to": "<14480.67.142.130.20.1238204745.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not that class warriors were ever swayed by facts, but from\nhttp://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_percentage_of_federal_income_tax_is_paid_by_the_wealthy:\n\nSome quick statistics: The top 1% of earners pay 21.20% of all taxes paid\nat an average rate of 24%, the top 2 - 5% of earners pay 14.55% of all\ntaxes at an average of 18% (Top 5% pay @36% of all tax) The bottom 50% pay\n3% of all tax collected at an average rate of 2.98%.\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Crossley", "address": "ishmael at drizzle.com" }, "date": "2009-03-28T04:42:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics", "in_reply_to": "<6109.67.142.130.20.1238211655.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/27/09 8:40 PM, \"brunians at brunians.org\" wrote:\nNot that class warriors were ever swayed by facts, but from\nhttp://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_percentage_of_federal_income_tax_is_paid_by_the\n_wealthy:\n\nSome quick statistics: The top 1% of earners pay 21.20% of all taxes paid\nat an average rate of 24%, the top 2 - 5% of earners pay 14.55% of all\ntaxes at an average of 18% (Top 5% pay @36% of all tax) The bottom 50% pay\n3% of all tax collected at an average rate of 2.98%." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And these facts, divorced from the numbers that explain how much the people\nin the various income brackets earn or own, mean what exactly?\n\nYour contributions to this economic \"discussion\" are so mindless and this\nentire exchange is so pointless that I wish you wouldn't feel the need to\nreply, actually. I won't be doing so again myself in the hope that this\nthread dies a belated death.\n\n\nJames" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4673.67.142.130.32.1238216938.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-28T05:08:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Some quick statistics: The top 1% of earners pay 21.20% of all taxes\npaid at an average rate of 24%, the top 2 - 5% of earners pay 14.55% of\nall taxes at an average of 18% (Top 5% pay @36% of all tax) The bottom\n50% pay 3% of all tax collected at an average rate of 2.98%." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And these facts, divorced from the numbers that explain how much the\npeople in the various income brackets earn or own, mean what exactly?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It means that the wealthiest 1% of Americans account for 21.20% of public\nmoneys, the next 4% account for another 15% or so, and the bottom half of\ntaxpayers account for 3%.\n\nWhat is hard to understand about this? Why should it matter how much an\nindividual 'earns or owns'? Is robbery OK as long as your victim is much\nwealthier than you?\n\nI mean, I know that most Americans actually *do* think that robbery is OK\nif their victims are sufficiently wealthy and the crime itself is\ncommitted with all due show of legality, but most won't admit it: I admire\nDavid Stockhoff, who admits that he not only wants to rob the rich, but\nalso wants to murder them. Hardly anyone is so honest these days.\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<49CDB9AA.3020401@doubtfulpalace.com>", "from": { "name": "Tim Walters", "address": "walters at doubtfulpalace.com" }, "date": "2009-03-28T05:46:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics", "in_reply_to": "<6109.67.142.130.20.1238211655.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nNot that class warriors were ever swayed by facts, but from\nhttp://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_percentage_of_federal_income_tax_is_paid_by_the_wealthy:\n\nSome quick statistics: The top 1% of earners pay 21.20% of all taxes paid\nat an average rate of 24%, the top 2 - 5% of earners pay 14.55% of all\ntaxes at an average of 18% (Top 5% pay @36% of all tax) The bottom 50% pay\n3% of all tax collected at an average rate of 2.98%." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The correct data can be found here:\n\nhttp://www.taxfoundation.org/files/wp1.pdf (pp. 22-24)\n\nTotal tax rates by quintile are:\n\n1: 13.0%, 2: 23.2%, 3: 28.2, 4: 31.3%, 5: 34.5%" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Tim Walters | The Doubtful Palace | http://doubtfulpalace.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris P", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-28T05:58:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics", "in_reply_to": "<49CDB9AA.3020401@doubtfulpalace.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Not that class warriors were ever swayed by facts, but from\nhttp://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_percentage_of_federal_income_tax_is_paid_by_the_wealthy:\n\nSome quick statistics: The top 1% of earners pay 21.20% of all taxes paid\nat an average rate of 24%, the top 2 - 5% of earners pay 14.55% of all\ntaxes at an average of 18% (Top 5% pay @36% of all tax) The bottom 50% pay\n3% of all tax collected at an average rate of 2.98%." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The correct data can be found here:\n\nhttp://www.taxfoundation.org/files/wp1.pdf (pp. 22-24)\n\nTotal tax rates by quintile are:\n\n1: 13.0%, 2: 23.2%, 3: 28.2, 4: 31.3%, 5: 34.5%" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "All of this is very nice, but I thought we weren't having this conversation." } ] }, { "message_id": "<49CE99F4.4030503@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-03-28T21:43:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, whatever. Tax rates for the wealthiest are lower than they have ever been. And corporations still pay nothing.\n\nFacts, facts, facts. Who needs them?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 3\nDate: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 23:40:55 -0400 (EDT)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics\nTo: brunians at brunians.org\nCc: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: <6109.67.142.130.20.1238211655.squirrel at brunians.org>\nContent-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1\n\nNot that class warriors were ever swayed by facts, but from\nhttp://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_percentage_of_federal_income_tax_is_paid_by_the_wealthy:\n\nSome quick statistics: The top 1% of earners pay 21.20% of all taxes paid\nat an average rate of 24%, the top 2 - 5% of earners pay 14.55% of all\ntaxes at an average of 18% (Top 5% pay @36% of all tax) The bottom 50% pay\n3% of all tax collected at an average rate of 2.98%.\n\n\n\n\n.\n\n\n\n\n------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49CE9AAC.3050607@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-03-28T21:46:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics", "in_reply_to": "<49CE99F4.4030503@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Unfortunately, I can't let that particular idiocy go by. \n\nI didn't say the rich should be murdered---that was Adam, whom I quoted. And he specifically meant rich banker criminals---a small subset of the rich.\n\nRead more carefully, culture warrior." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 01:08:58 -0400 (EDT)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: <4673.67.142.130.32.1238216938.squirrel at brunians.org>\nContent-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Some quick statistics: The top 1% of earners pay 21.20% of all taxes\npaid at an average rate of 24%, the top 2 - 5% of earners pay 14.55% of\nall taxes at an average of 18% (Top 5% pay @36% of all tax) The bottom\n50% pay 3% of all tax collected at an average rate of 2.98%." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And these facts, divorced from the numbers that explain how much the\npeople in the various income brackets earn or own, mean what exactly?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n\nIt means that the wealthiest 1% of Americans account for 21.20% of public\nmoneys, the next 4% account for another 15% or so, and the bottom half of\ntaxpayers account for 3%.\n\nWhat is hard to understand about this? Why should it matter how much an\nindividual 'earns or owns'? Is robbery OK as long as your victim is much\nwealthier than you?\n\nI mean, I know that most Americans actually *do* think that robbery is OK\nif their victims are sufficiently wealthy and the crime itself is\ncommitted with all due show of legality, but most won't admit it: I admire\nDavid Stockhoff, who admits that he not only wants to rob the rich, but\nalso wants to murder them. Hardly anyone is so honest these days." } ] }, { "message_id": "<10207.67.142.130.30.1238278398.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-28T22:13:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David Stockhoff asserts that there is no corporate income tax." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_tax:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Tax rates around the world vary considerably both in their statutory\nrates, and in their effective rates after all offsets are considered,\npreventing any straightforward comparisons of tax rates between countries.\nIn some countries, for example, the United States, Canada and Switzerland,\nsubnational governments also collect taxes, which further complicates the\ncalculation of the tax rate.\n\nIn the United States, the top marginal federal corporate rate for income\nover $18.3 million is 35% (it can be as low as 15% for income under\n$50,000). Most states also tax companies,[2] but the state tax is a\ndeductible expense in calculating federal tax, so the overall tax rate is\nnot simply the sum of the two tax rates.\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris P", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-28T22:43:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics", "in_reply_to": "<10207.67.142.130.30.1238278398.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sitka\n\nThe City and Borough of Sitka is a unified city-borough located on the west side of Baranof Island in the Alexander Archipelago of the Pacific Ocean (part of the Alaska Panhandle), in the U.S. state of Alaska. With an estimated population of 8,986 in 2005,[1] Sitka is the state's fourth-largest city by population in Alaska and the largest city in the United States by area.\n\nThe name Sitka (derived from Sheet?k?, a contraction of the Tlingit name Shee At'ik?) means \"People on the Outside of Shee,\" Sheet?-k? X'?at'l (often expressed simply as Shee) being the Tlingit name for Baranof Island. The town is sometimes referred to as \"Sitka-by-the-Sea.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Tax rates around the world vary considerably both in their statutory\nrates, and in their effective rates after all offsets are considered,\npreventing any straightforward comparisons of tax rates between countries.\nIn some countries, for example, the United States, Canada and Switzerland,\nsubnational governments also collect taxes, which further complicates the\ncalculation of the tax rate.\n\nIn the United States, the top marginal federal corporate rate for income\nover $18.3 million is 35% (it can be as low as 15% for income under\n$50,000). Most states also tax companies,[2] but the state tax is a\ndeductible expense in calculating federal tax, so the overall tax rate is\nnot simply the sum of the two tax rates.\n\n\n\n\n.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49D1D3C2.3050201@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-03-31T08:26:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics", "in_reply_to": "<14480.67.142.130.20.1238204745.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nThis is why 'raising taxes on the rich' doesn't work, for those of you who\nhave been paying attention." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I'm talking about the gummint going bankrupt, silly boy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gummints don't go bankrupt, having produced nothing in the first\nplace. They may print money, which will devalue all the goods and\nservices of the society and bring about its ruination, of course.\nThey have that power, but they don't have the power to create money\nin the original sense of the word, as a store of value. You may or\nmay not be aware that businesses don't pay taxes either, individuals\ndo. Businesses pass them along to their customers to pay." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Who do estate taxes get passed on to?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4790.67.142.130.49.1238494997.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-31T10:23:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics", "in_reply_to": "<49D1D3C2.3050201@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This is why 'raising taxes on the rich' doesn't work, for those of you\nwho have been paying attention." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I'm talking about the gummint going bankrupt, silly boy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Gummints don't go bankrupt, having produced nothing in the first\nplace. They may print money, which will devalue all the goods and\nservices of the society and bring about its ruination, of course.\nThey have that power, but they don't have the power to create money\nin the original sense of the word, as a store of value. You may or\nmay not be aware that businesses don't pay taxes either, individuals\ndo. Businesses pass them along to their customers to pay." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Who do estate taxes get passed on to?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As far as I know, estates are only left by natural persons, that is, they\nare not paid by businesses.\n\nEstate taxes are basically a means of limiting social mobility: the idea\nis to prevent middle-class families from becoming upper-class. The way a\nmiddle-class family becomes upper-class, of course, is by increasing\nwealth from generation to generation. This can be useful in limiting the\ninfluence of undesireable ethnic groups with a demonstrated ability of\nmaking money.\n\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris P", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-31T10:41:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics", "in_reply_to": "<4790.67.142.130.49.1238494997.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "This is why 'raising taxes on the rich' doesn't work, for those of you\nwho have been paying attention." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I'm talking about the gummint going bankrupt, silly boy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Gummints don't go bankrupt, having produced nothing in the first\nplace. They may print money, which will devalue all the goods and\nservices of the society and bring about its ruination, of course.\nThey have that power, but they don't have the power to create money\nin the original sense of the word, as a store of value. You may or\nmay not be aware that businesses don't pay taxes either, individuals\ndo. Businesses pass them along to their customers to pay." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Who do estate taxes get passed on to?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As far as I know, estates are only left by natural persons, that is, they\nare not paid by businesses.\n\nEstate taxes are basically a means of limiting social mobility: the idea\nis to prevent middle-class families from becoming upper-class. The way a\nmiddle-class family becomes upper-class, of course, is by increasing\nwealth from generation to generation. This can be useful in limiting the\ninfluence of undesireable ethnic groups with a demonstrated ability of\nmaking money." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Putting aside contentious interpretations about what the estate tax is \"intended\" to do, this does not seem to me to be a good model for social mobility (that is, having it done by building from generation to generation rather than for the individual). Telling someone who starts out poor that, if he plays along well and works hard, perhaps his children or grandchildren or great grandchildren might not be poor smacks a bit of telling the untouchable that perhaps if he accepts his lot in life, he'll come back as a higher class in a future life.\n\nBefore I make any judgment on the last part of what you said, please clarify what you mean about undesirable ethnic types. Are you claiming that some ethnicities are taxed different amounts for the same size estate? Or that some ethnicities have more money than others (and thus get taxed more)? Or that some ethnic groups are inherently more capable than others (thus deserve to get more money, and thus will be taxed more)? Also, which ethnic groups are you referring to - I thought perhaps you might be referring to anti-Semitism but this may not be the case." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4581.67.142.130.12.1238502257.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-31T12:24:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Estate taxes are basically a means of limiting social mobility: the idea\nis to prevent middle-class families from becoming upper-class. The way a\nmiddle-class family becomes upper-class, of course, is by increasing\nwealth from generation to generation. This can be useful in limiting the\ninfluence of undesireable ethnic groups with a demonstrated ability of\nmaking money." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Putting aside contentious interpretations about what the estate tax is\n\"intended\" to do, this does not seem to me to be a good model for social\nmobility (that is, having it done by building from generation to\ngeneration rather than for the individual)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That is how it is done, mostly. Exceptional individuals might do it in one\ngeneration. It does happen. Not very often.\n\nIt sure didn't happen with Barack Obama (upper-middle class American white\npeople on one side, African aristocrats on the other)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Before I make any judgment on the last part of what you said, please\nclarify what you mean about undesirable ethnic types. Are you claiming\nthat some ethnicities are taxed different amounts for the same size\nestate? Or that some ethnicities have more money than others (and thus get\ntaxed more)? Or that some ethnic groups are inherently more capable than\nothers (thus deserve to get more money, and thus will be taxed more)?\nAlso, which ethnic groups are you referring to - I thought perhaps you\nmight be referring to anti-Semitism but this may not be the case." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, estate taxes were used in an attempt to Keep The Jews Out of the\nAmerican upper-class. It didn't quite work.\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-31T12:59:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Jason Vorhee's Politics", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or maybe Freddy Krueger's politics. Anyway, it's someone who always comes back.\n\nOld farmer Johnson had troubles of his own. \nHe had a yellow cat that wouldn't leave him alone. \nHe tried and he tried to give that cat away; \nGave him to a man going very far away. \n But the cat came back the very next day,\n The cat came back, we thought he was a goner,\n The cat came back, he just wouldn't stay away.\nHe gave it to a little boy with a dollar and a note. \nTold him to go up the river in a little boat. \nTo tie a rope around its neck and a weight of 20 pounds. \nNow they tell the tale of the little boy that drowned. \n But the cat came back the very next day,\n The cat came back, we thought he was a goner,\n The cat came back, he just wouldn't stay away.\nThe bombs started dropping just the other day. \nThe missles were fired in the very same way. \nRussia went, China went, and the USA. \nThe human race perished with hardly a chance to pray. \n But the cat came back the very next day,\n The cat came back, we thought he was a goner,\n The cat came back, he just wouldn't stay away.\n----------------------------------------------\nFrom: Chris P " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 5:41 AM\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net \nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "This is why 'raising taxes on the rich' doesn't work, for those of you\nwho have been paying attention." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I'm talking about the gummint going bankrupt, silly boy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Gummints don't go bankrupt, having produced nothing in the first\nplace. They may print money, which will devalue all the goods and\nservices of the society and bring about its ruination, of course.\nThey have that power, but they don't have the power to create money\nin the original sense of the word, as a store of value. You may or\nmay not be aware that businesses don't pay taxes either, individuals\ndo. Businesses pass them along to their customers to pay." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Who do estate taxes get passed on to?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As far as I know, estates are only left by natural persons, that is, they\nare not paid by businesses.\n\nEstate taxes are basically a means of limiting social mobility: the idea\nis to prevent middle-class families from becoming upper-class. The way a\nmiddle-class family becomes upper-class, of course, is by increasing\nwealth from generation to generation. This can be useful in limiting the\ninfluence of undesireable ethnic groups with a demonstrated ability of\nmaking money." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Putting aside contentious interpretations about what the estate tax is \"intended\" to do, this does not seem to me to be a good model for social mobility (that is, having it done by building from generation to generation rather than for the individual). Telling someone who starts out poor that, if he plays along well and works hard, perhaps his children or grandchildren or great grandchildren might not be poor smacks a bit of telling the untouchable that perhaps if he accepts his lot in life, he'll come back as a higher class in a future life.\n\nBefore I make any judgment on the last part of what you said, please clarify what you mean about undesirable ethnic types. Are you claiming that some ethnicities are taxed different amounts for the same size estate? Or that some ethnicities have more money than others (and thus get taxed more)? Or that some ethnic groups are inherently more capable than others (thus deserve to get more money, and thus will be taxed more)? Also, which ethnic groups are you referring to - I thought perhaps you might be referring to anti-Semitism but this may not be the case.\n\n\n\nInternet Explorer 8 — Get your Hotmail Accelerated. Download free! " } ] }, { "message_id": "<49D26385.6090307@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-03-31T18:40:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics", "in_reply_to": "<4790.67.142.130.49.1238494997.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "This is why 'raising taxes on the rich' doesn't work, for those of you\nwho have been paying attention." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I'm talking about the gummint going bankrupt, silly boy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Gummints don't go bankrupt, having produced nothing in the first\nplace. They may print money, which will devalue all the goods and\nservices of the society and bring about its ruination, of course.\nThey have that power, but they don't have the power to create money\nin the original sense of the word, as a store of value. You may or\nmay not be aware that businesses don't pay taxes either, individuals\ndo. Businesses pass them along to their customers to pay." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Who do estate taxes get passed on to?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As far as I know, estates are only left by natural persons, that is, they\nare not paid by businesses." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But how do they not work on the rich people who own the businesses?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5572.67.142.130.25.1238527018.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-31T19:16:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics", "in_reply_to": "<49D26385.6090307@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Who do estate taxes get passed on to?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As far as I know, estates are only left by natural persons, that is,\nthey are not paid by businesses." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But how do they not work on the rich people who own the businesses?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "(A) Whose money is it? My point of view is that it belongs to the rich\npeople and as their property should be disposed of in the manner in which\nthey choose. There are other points of view (see below).\n\n(B) Define 'work'. Certainly it does work as a means of limiting social\nmobility, but is that the purpose of taxation? To my mind taxation is\narmed robbery, only justifiable for the absolutely necessary functions of\ngovernment, which are:\n\n [1] the military and everything pertaining thereunto,\n [2] building and maintaining infrastructure (taxation to support a rail\nsystem would be perfectly legitimate from my point of view) and\n [3] big science, big enough that no private concern would want to do\n(space programs and superconducting supercolliders and so on).\n\n\n\n\n\"All money belongs to the Federal Government, Jay. People - people who own\nsmall businesses particularly - speak of making money. Quite often they\nuse those exact words. But if you'll think about it, you'll see that they\nare not true. All money is made by government, and so all money belongs to\nGovernment, which allows citizens like you and me to have some, sometimes,\nso we can buy the things we need. But Government keeps title to all of it\nand by the very nature of things can't lose title to any of it.\"\n\n\n-- Captain Hayfa Washington, Fifth Airborne Brigade, Federal Revenue and\nSecurity Services (from \"Viewpoint\" by Gene Wolfe).\n\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<49D28BE0.80502@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-03-31T21:32:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics", "in_reply_to": "<5572.67.142.130.25.1238527018.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " [1] the military and everything pertaining thereunto,\n\nThere's your \"armed robbery\" right there. ------------------------------ \nMessage: 4 Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 15:16:58 -0400 (EDT) From: \nbrunians at brunians.org Subject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics To: \"The \nUrth Mailing List\" Message-ID: \n<5572.67.142.130.25.1238527018.squirrel at brunians.org> Content-Type: \ntext/plain;charset=iso-8859-1" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Who do estate taxes get passed on to?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "As far as I know, estates are only left by natural persons, that is,\nthey are not paid by businesses." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But how do they not work on the rich people who own the businesses?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "(A) Whose money is it? My point of view is that it belongs to the rich\npeople and as their property should be disposed of in the manner in which\nthey choose. There are other points of view (see below).\n\n(B) Define 'work'. Certainly it does work as a means of limiting social\nmobility, but is that the purpose of taxation? To my mind taxation is\narmed robbery, only justifiable for the absolutely necessary functions of\ngovernment, which are:\n\n [1] the military and everything pertaining thereunto,\n [2] building and maintaining infrastructure (taxation to support a rail\nsystem would be perfectly legitimate from my point of view) and\n [3] big science, big enough that no private concern would want to do\n(space programs and superconducting supercolliders and so on)." } ] }, { "message_id": "<14905.67.142.130.28.1238535443.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-31T21:37:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics", "in_reply_to": "<49D28BE0.80502@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If you would have peace, prepare for war.\n\nWhat do you think the main purpose of government is, David, if not to\nmaintain the military?\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " [1] the military and everything pertaining thereunto,\n\nThere's your \"armed robbery\" right there. ------------------------------\nMessage: 4 Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 15:16:58 -0400 (EDT) From:\nbrunians at brunians.org Subject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics To: \"The\nUrth Mailing List\" Message-ID:\n<5572.67.142.130.25.1238527018.squirrel at brunians.org> Content-Type:\ntext/plain;charset=iso-8859-1" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "Who do estate taxes get passed on to?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "As far as I know, estates are only left by natural persons, that is,\nthey are not paid by businesses." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "But how do they not work on the rich people who own the businesses?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(A) Whose money is it? My point of view is that it belongs to the rich\npeople and as their property should be disposed of in the manner in which\nthey choose. There are other points of view (see below).\n\n(B) Define 'work'. Certainly it does work as a means of limiting social\nmobility, but is that the purpose of taxation? To my mind taxation is\narmed robbery, only justifiable for the absolutely necessary functions of\ngovernment, which are:\n\n [1] the military and everything pertaining thereunto,\n [2] building and maintaining infrastructure (taxation to support a rail\nsystem would be perfectly legitimate from my point of view) and\n [3] big science, big enough that no private concern would want to do\n(space programs and superconducting supercolliders and so on).\n\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 090331-0, 03/31/2009\nTested on: 3/31/2009 5:32:17 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3A39D780-A778-4C9C-A278-1280874658E3@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-03-31T21:39:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics", "in_reply_to": "<14905.67.142.130.28.1238535443.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 31, 2009, at 4:37 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nWhat do you think the main purpose of government is, David, if not to\nmaintain the military?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To protect the weak from the strong.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<15866.67.142.130.28.1238535918.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-31T21:45:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics", "in_reply_to": "<3A39D780-A778-4C9C-A278-1280874658E3@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 31, 2009, at 4:37 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What do you think the main purpose of government is, David, if not to\nmaintain the military?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To protect the weak from the strong." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But the government is normally the strongest entity around. How does that\nwork?\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<044CA101-0B24-45BB-9FAE-75C1FC3AF288@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-03-31T21:50:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics", "in_reply_to": "<15866.67.142.130.28.1238535918.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Mar 31, 2009, at 4:45 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nOn Mar 31, 2009, at 4:37 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "What do you think the main purpose of government is, David, if not \nto\nmaintain the military?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "To protect the weak from the strong." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But the government is normally the strongest entity around. How does \nthat\nwork?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's a continuum here. It is the government's job to make sure \nthat something unpleasant happens to Bob if he kills me simply because \nhe has the ability to (being stronger) and without otherwise-just \ncause. This functions as a deterrent, which therefore enables the \nmostly-functioning of a mostly-civil society.\n\nSee Mogadishu for a counterexample.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3830.67.142.130.28.1238541246.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-31T23:14:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics", "in_reply_to": "<044CA101-0B24-45BB-9FAE-75C1FC3AF288@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "What do you think the main purpose of government is, David, if not\nto maintain the military?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "To protect the weak from the strong." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But the government is normally the strongest entity around. How does\nthat work?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There's a continuum here. It is the government's job to make sure\nthat something unpleasant happens to Bob if he kills me simply because\nhe has the ability to (being stronger) and without otherwise-just\ncause. This functions as a deterrent, which therefore enables the\nmostly-functioning of a mostly-civil society." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "See Mogadishu for a counterexample." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If you will recall, we began this discussion by asking what the government\nwas authorized to spend money upon. My answer to this was threefold: the\nmilitary, infrastructure and big research. David Stockhoff (I believe)\nscoffed at this. I asked him what he thought the government was authorized\nto spend money upon. He has not answered me: you stepped in and said that\ngovernment's main purpose was to protect the weak from the strong.\n\nPractically speaking, what does this mean? What is government authorized\nto spend money on, in your view?\n\nI don't think that I would deny that police services are a proper function\nof government: sometimes when people talk about protecting the weak from\nthe strong, they are really talking about taking money away from people\nwho have it and spending it on people who do not have it: I will come flat\nout and ask you if that is what you mean, or part of it.\n\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-04-01T00:57:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics", "in_reply_to": "<3830.67.142.130.28.1238541246.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 31, 2009, at 6:14 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nI don't think that I would deny that police services are a proper \nfunction\nof government: sometimes when people talk about protecting the weak \nfrom\nthe strong, they are really talking about taking money away from \npeople\nwho have it and spending it on people who do not have it: I will \ncome flat\nout and ask you if that is what you mean, or part of it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If you are going to insist on a radically-stupidified-and-insulting \ncaricature, yes, that is what I mean.\n\nYour inability to, for instance, pay for police protection or legal \ncounsel should not mean that you can be abused with impunity. \nUniversal access to police services or a code of law that applies to \nboth rich and poor both \"take money away from people who have it and \nspend it on people who do not have it.\"\n\nI would go farther: it is immoral and to everyone's ultimate detriment \nto allow anyone, however worthless, however much of a net cost rather \nthan a net benefit to society, to starve or die of an easily-and- \ncheaply treatable disease. I understand that you fundamentally \ndisagree and that we will not be able to find common ground.\n\nI believe that, unless you can find some way to turn this back to Gene \nWolfe, that I will stop trying to discuss this with you. I am not a \nLibertarian, and I believe, in general, that Libertarians do not \nrealize that a civil society has a positive value, or perhaps they \nradically overestimate their chances of medium-to-long-term survival \nin a world in which each person gets precisely the law he pays for.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3990.67.142.130.37.1238552290.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-04-01T02:18:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't think that I would deny that police services are a proper\nfunction of government: sometimes when people talk about protecting the\nweak from the strong, they are really talking about taking money away\nfrom people who have it and spending it on people who do not have it:\nI will come flat out and ask you if that is what you mean, or part of it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If you are going to insist on a radically-stupidified-and-insulting\ncaricature, yes, that is what I mean." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I wasn't actually: I was referring to what is generally referred to\nas redistribution of wealth. In my first sentence above, where I describe\npolice services as a proper function of government, I mean that it is\nproper to support it with public money.\n\nI seem to detect some hostility from you: I am not sure why this should\nbe. I don't feel any hostility towards you. I have found that discussions\nof this type do not go off well if even one participant has bad feelings\nabout the other.\n\nCertainly your - I think deliberate - misreading has allowed you to\nindulge in some fine invective. I don't begrudge you this: I hope you\nenjoyed it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Your inability to, for instance, pay for police protection or legal\ncounsel should not mean that you can be abused with impunity.\nUniversal access to police services or a code of law that applies to\nboth rich and poor both \"take money away from people who have it and\nspend it on people who do not have it.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I would go farther: it is immoral and to everyone's ultimate detriment\nto allow anyone, however worthless, however much of a net cost rather\nthan a net benefit to society, to starve or die of an easily-and-\ncheaply treatable disease. I understand that you fundamentally\ndisagree" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't: I just want you to figure out a way to pay for it that does not\ninvolve stealing. There are actually a couple of schemes for providing\nthese basic services that I would approve of, but you are having so much\nfun arguing with your image of what you think I believe that I hesitate to\ndiscuss them.\n\nI was reading a book today called \"Aku-Aku\", by Thor Heyerdahl. It is\nHeyerdahl's story of his expedition to Easter Island.\n\nWhile they were on the island, they offered to take all of the islander's\nchildren around the island on their ship. Tragically, at one point, while\nthey were taking the kids off the beach, a boat capsized. Everybody went\nto save the children. A couple of kids drowned.\n\nOne of the Norwegian crewmen took his watch off and put it in his hat when\nhe went into the water to help rescue the kids. While he was doing this,\nsomeone stole his watch.\n\nThat evening, Heyerdahl was talking with the local priest and said it was\na tragedy, the children dying.\n\n\"The watch being stolen was worse.\" said the priest.\n\n\"What do you mean?\" said Heyerdahl.\n\n\"We all have to die. We don't have to steal.\" replied the priest." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " and that we will not be able to find common ground." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We won't unless you work at it with me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I believe that, unless you can find some way to turn this back to Gene\nWolfe, that I will stop trying to discuss this with you. I am not a\nLibertarian," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nor am I." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " and I believe, in general, that Libertarians do not\nrealize that a civil society has a positive value, or perhaps they\nradically overestimate their chances of medium-to-long-term survival\nin a world in which each person gets precisely the law he pays for." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think that you are misrepresenting the Libertarian (note capital L)\nposition, but since it is not my position, I am not going to defend it.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<49D34B3A.6010709@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-04-01T11:08:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics", "in_reply_to": "<3990.67.142.130.37.1238552290.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I knew you would blatantly, simplemindedly, and yet disingenuously misinterpret. I was pointing out the \"and everything pertaining thereunto.\" Vast black budgets, aggressive state secrecy, waste, corruption, influence-peddling, revolving doors, oligarchy, torture, pointless and illegal war. That's the main purpose of government? Even I don't think you believe that.\n\nThe ONLY purpose of government, obviously, is to spend taxes as the people (and their corporate overlords) see fit. Period. This alone has nearly infinite meanings. It means \"regulate interstate commerce,\" for example. (Boring, I know.)\n\nYour positioning of the military as the \"main\" purpose of government illustrates your infantile, pseudomasculine, and gun-obsessed worldview. Even Wolfe would see right through it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 2\nDate: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 17:37:23 -0400 (EDT)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49D34C94.1040204@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-04-01T11:14:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics", "in_reply_to": "<49D34B3A.6010709@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Seems like you're already making us do all the work. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 8\nDate: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 22:18:10 -0400 (EDT)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: <3990.67.142.130.37.1238552290.squirrel at brunians.org>\nContent-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " and that we will not be able to find common ground." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n\nWe won't unless you work at it with me." } ] }, { "message_id": "<3980.67.142.130.45.1238593584.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-04-01T13:46:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics", "in_reply_to": "<49D34B3A.6010709@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. David, you know, I wish I didn't have to say this, but you are very\nloud, very emotional, and very wrong." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I knew you would blatantly, simplemindedly, and yet disingenuously\nmisinterpret. I was pointing out the \"and everything pertaining\nthereunto.\" Vast black budgets, aggressive state secrecy, waste,\ncorruption, influence-peddling, revolving doors, oligarchy, torture,\npointless and illegal war." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was thinking more of health care for disabled veterans - did you know\nthat veteran's have specialized health problems?- personally, helping\nthem buy houses, get on with their civilian careers (which may require\nsome retraining) etc. I guess that just shows the difference between the\nways our minds work." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " That's the main purpose of government?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The main purpose of government is to prevent bad people from killing you.\nI know, I think that they are making too much effort to do it also, but\nthere it is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Even I\ndon't think you believe that." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Consider the emotional load you bring to each sentence, it seems to me\nthat this statement becomes truer with the omission of the first and\nfourth and subsequent words. Pure gut reaction, mediated by propaganda:\nthe fully trained American subject in his early twenty-first century\nglory. There's a scholalry paper in you and your attitudes, did you know\nthat? I'll never write it, thank God." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The ONLY purpose of government, obviously, is to spend taxes as the people\n(and their corporate overlords) see fit. Period. This alone has nearly\ninfinite meanings. It means \"regulate interstate commerce,\" for example.\n(Boring, I know.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Chilling, more like it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Your positioning of the military as the \"main\" purpose of government\nillustrates your infantile, pseudomasculine, and gun-obsessed worldview." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah, well I do agree with you that our conversation is going nowhere. And\nsince there are people who represent a more reasonable version of your\nposition, and do it in a much more civil manner, I think I am going to\nleave you hang, boy. Argument does not consist of insult, no matter how\nmuch contempt you may have for yourself, your interlocutor, the matter at\nhand, or thought in general." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Even Wolfe would see right through it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You are so silly. Perhaps someday you will realize that.\n\nUntil then,\n\n\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<49D3840D.3030607@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-04-01T15:11:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics", "in_reply_to": "<3980.67.142.130.45.1238593584.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Leave me in peace, you mean. Yes, I wish you would. As I've indicated before, your arrogance is vast, as is your dishonesty." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 6\nDate: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 09:46:24 -0400 (EDT)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Steven", "address": "mcquaryq at comcast.net" }, "date": "2009-04-02T17:10:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe's Politics", "in_reply_to": "<49D1D3C2.3050201@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 31, 2009, at 4:26 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nWho do estate taxes get passed on to?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Is this a trick question? They are paid by the executor of the \nestate if there's money there to tax. There's no tax to pass on \nunless there's money in the estate to be taken.\n\nSteven Bowen\nhttp://bowenfinearts.com/" } ] } ] }