{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5384", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5384, "subject": "STFU", "messages": 13, "voices": 9, "first": "2009-03-27T06:10:52+00:00", "last": "2009-03-30T04:28:45+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<255116.87847.qm@web32408.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-03-27T06:10:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) STFU", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ha, gotcha! Actually the subject line is completely pertinent and completely Wolfe, ala An Evil Guest. Does anyone have any idea why Wolfe bothers to have the cop that meets Cassie in the soda/ice cream shop tell the girl working there to \"Shut the fuck up.\" I mean, it was so jarring and so un Wolfe-ish, that I did a double take and then started laughing my ass off. It really is pretty funny, but does anyone think there's a reason for it that furthers the story?\n\nDon \n\nDoggerel\nwww.don-doggett.blogspot.com\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris P", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-27T09:48:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) STFU", "in_reply_to": "<255116.87847.qm@web32408.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The cop is not a Wolfean hero, he is a bend-the-rules sort of cop who has been called on out of the blue to pay back a favor and is annoyed.\n\nHowever, on that note, who killed the hapless doorman who was sent to lure her out to talk to.. whoever it was... in the alley?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "\"When small men begin to cast big shadows, it means that the sun is about to set.\" -- Lin Yutang" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 23:10:52 -0700\nFrom: kingwukong at yahoo.com\nTo: urth-urth.net at lists.urth.net\nSubject: (urth) STFU\n\n\nHa, gotcha! Actually the subject line is completely pertinent and completely Wolfe, ala An Evil Guest. Does anyone have any idea why Wolfe bothers to have the cop that meets Cassie in the soda/ice cream shop tell the girl working there to \"Shut the fuck up.\" I mean, it was so jarring and so un Wolfe-ish, that I did a double take and then started laughing my ass off. It really is pretty funny, but does anyone think there's a reason for it that furthers the story?\n\nDon \n\nDoggerel\nwww.don-doggett.blogspot.com\n\n\n \n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7592.72.171.0.148.1238149627.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-27T10:27:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG - False Loose Ends", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It has been growing on me, how clever this novel is. On the surface, it is\nnot only a pulp novel, it is a *bad* pulp novel, with a poor editing job:\nwhy the author and editor can't even keep the address of the heroine\nstraight. People are mentioned, killed, forgotten. It is easy to see\nsomeone who doesn't know Wolfe saying 'Eh! The author can't even be\nbothered to keep a bit of consistency? Onto the trash heap with it!'.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The cop is not a Wolfean hero, he is a bend-the-rules sort of cop who has\nbeen called on out of the blue to pay back a favor and is annoyed.\n\nHowever, on that note, who killed the hapless doorman who was sent to lure\nher out to talk to.. whoever it was... in the alley?\n\n--\n\"When small men begin to cast big shadows, it means that the sun is about\nto set.\" -- Lin Yutang" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 23:10:52 -0700\nFrom: kingwukong at yahoo.com\nTo: urth-urth.net at lists.urth.net\nSubject: (urth) STFU\n\n\nHa, gotcha! Actually the subject line is completely pertinent and\ncompletely Wolfe, ala An Evil Guest. Does anyone have any idea why Wolfe\nbothers to have the cop that meets Cassie in the soda/ice cream shop\ntell the girl working there to \"Shut the fuck up.\" I mean, it was so\njarring and so un Wolfe-ish, that I did a double take and then started\nlaughing my ass off. It really is pretty funny, but does anyone think\nthere's a reason for it that furthers the story?\n\nDon\n\nDoggerel\nwww.don-doggett.blogspot.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20090327123119.D829648008@diego.dreamhost.com>", "from": { "name": "Mo Holkar / UKG", "address": "lists at ukg.co.uk" }, "date": "2009-03-27T12:31:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG - False Loose Ends", "in_reply_to": "<7592.72.171.0.148.1238149627.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 10:27 27/03/2009, brunians wrote:\nIt is easy to see someone who doesn't know Wolfe saying 'Eh! The \nauthor can't even be bothered to keep a bit of consistency? Onto the \ntrash heap with it!'." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And other people, who do know Wolfe, getting into increasingly \nstranger contortions to try and explain away such apparent inconsistencies.\n\nMo\n\n\n\n# ~ # ~ #\n\nWolfeWiki now at:\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/ " } ] }, { "message_id": "<49CCCA8A.10600@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-03-27T12:46:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG - False Loose Ends", "in_reply_to": "<20090327123119.D829648008@diego.dreamhost.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Now that's an observation that makes me really want to read the book. From the discussion here, I first thought it might be silly intertextual fun, then got a growing impression of deeper currents. But this is great. Is Wolfe imitating a dead or dying storytelling mode right down to its well-known flaws?\n\nAnd has he always done this?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 10\nDate: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 06:27:07 -0400 (EDT)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nSubject: (urth) AEG - False Loose Ends" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49CCF485.1000007@mindspring.com>", "from": { "name": "Henry Eissler", "address": "henryeissleriii at mindspring.com" }, "date": "2009-03-27T15:45:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) STFU", "in_reply_to": "<255116.87847.qm@web32408.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My take is that the Baskin Robbins girl is also in on whatever charade \nis going on.\nMy related question is: Why is the ice cream girl so keen to tell Cassie \nhow much she hates her?\n ---H" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "don doggett wrote:\nHa, gotcha! Actually the subject line is completely pertinent and completely Wolfe, ala An Evil Guest. Does anyone have any idea why Wolfe bothers to have the cop that meets Cassie in the soda/ice cream shop tell the girl working there to \"Shut the fuck up.\" I mean, it was so jarring and so un Wolfe-ish, that I did a double take and then started laughing my ass off. It really is pretty funny, but does anyone think there's a reason for it that furthers the story?\n\nDon \n\nDoggerel\nwww.don-doggett.blogspot.com\n\n\n \n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<412967.12959.qm@web32404.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-03-27T16:33:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) STFU", "in_reply_to": "<49CCF485.1000007@mindspring.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Doggerel\nwww.don-doggett.blogspot.com" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Fri, 3/27/09, Chris P wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The cop is not a Wolfean hero, he is a bend-the-rules sort\nof cop who has been called on out of the blue to pay back a\nfavor and is annoyed." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, but he appears again several times, but this sort of raw vulgarity is nowhere to be seen, nowhere else in the novel, and nowhere in any of Wolfe's other works that I've read. I'm a big fan of tactical vulgarity in fiction but it was really jarring here, and I can't imagine it was done just to show this guy is a \"tough as nails\" detective.\n\nDon\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<61035.49588.qm@web32408.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-03-27T16:44:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) STFU", "in_reply_to": "<412967.12959.qm@web32404.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Doggerel\nwww.don-doggett.blogspot.com" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Fri, 3/27/09, Henry Eissler wrote:\nMy take is that the Baskin Robbins\ngirl is also in on whatever charade is going on.\nMy related question is: Why is the ice cream girl so keen\nto tell Cassie how much she hates her?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I forgot it was a Baskin Robbins. That was one of the things that made it so funny when I first read it. As for your question, I thought she hated Cassie because she's a teenager, the ice cream shop is empty and about to close, and Cassie walks in and orders and makes herself at home.\n\nDon \n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Thomas Bitterman", "address": "tom at bitterman.net" }, "date": "2009-03-27T18:08:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) STFU", "in_reply_to": "<255116.87847.qm@web32408.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 2:10 AM, don doggett wrote:\n\nHa, gotcha! Actually the subject line is completely pertinent and\ncompletely Wolfe, ala An Evil Guest. Does anyone have any idea why Wolfe\nbothers to have the cop that meets Cassie in the soda/ice cream shop tell\nthe girl working there to \"Shut the fuck up.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The cop works for/with the BATF, Wolfe hates the BATF, so he writes the cop\nas a complete bastard?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Don" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Tom" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris P", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-27T19:23:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) STFU", "in_reply_to": "<412967.12959.qm@web32404.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The cop is not a Wolfean hero, he is a bend-the-rules sort\nof cop who has been called on out of the blue to pay back a\nfavor and is annoyed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yeah, but he appears again several times, but this sort of raw vulgarity is nowhere to be seen, nowhere else in the novel, and nowhere in any of Wolfe's other works that I've read. I'm a big fan of tactical vulgarity in fiction but it was really jarring here, and I can't imagine it was done just to show this guy is a \"tough as nails\" detective.\n\nDon" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "OK, but at the same time in his later appearances he also seems more polite. Possibly because he's in more control of the situation, rather than possibly having been called up in the middle of the night to do some (seemingly unnecessarily) convoluted task." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Stephen Hoy", "address": "stephenhoy at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-03-29T21:43:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) STFU", "in_reply_to": "<49CCF485.1000007@mindspring.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Henry Eissler wrote:\nMy take is that the Baskin Robbins girl is also in on whatever charade\nis going on.\nMy related question is: Why is the ice cream girl so keen to tell Cassie\nhow much she hates her?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Cassie: \"I wish we could be friends.\"\nB-R girl: \"I've got three friends...Rita, Amber, and Christabelle.\"\n- p28\n\nThere's been a bit of discussion about the \"loose ends\" in AEG, but I think\nit's possible to read these loose ends as extra-textual allusions that align\nwith the story.\n\nFirst things first, why does Wolfe set a scene at a Baskin-Robbins? Does it\nhave something to do with the company's 31 flavors? Maybe it's an allusion\nto Messier 31, the Andromeda galaxy.\n\nSecond, why mention these three friends? Maybe they have something in common\nthat pertains to Wolfe's plan for AEG.\n\nWorking backwards from least to most obscure -- 'Christabelle' suggests\nColeridge's long poem with a similar name, \"Christabel.\" The key aspect of\nthis poem is the way Coleridge explores the character's perception of\nreality between waking and dreaming.\n\nSimilar theme with the second name, 'Amber'. The name suggests Roger\nZelazny's Amber series of books and stories. This may be a subtle hint at\nWolfe's method, the idea of one True World and an infinite number of shadow\nworlds, alterable \"at will\" by an adept.\n\nIf we continue along the same theme of altered perceptions, the name 'Rita'\nsuggests the character of Rita/Camilla in David Lynch's \"Mulholland Drive.\"\nCassie shares some interesting aspects with one of the actresses in this\nfilm, including responsibility for the death of at least one of the other\ncharacters.\n\n[I haven't figured out a tie-in for B-R girl's reference to Rita's little\nbrother.]\n\nFinally, at the end of this page we get the detective--\"The man who entered\nwas both tall and wide, nearing middle age.\" And departs B-R with a jarring\nfinger-point: \"You stfu.\"\n\nI wonder whether this is an allusion to John Goodman. Size and shape and age\nmatch, and Goodman comically utters \"STFU, Donnie\" in The Big Lebowski, but\nhe plays a detective in a couple of movies. Specifically, One Night at\nMcCool's has a few parallels with AEG--especially the animal magnetism of\nthe actress Jewel--and this may explain why Wolfe puts the detective's words\non the page." } ] }, { "message_id": "<44fb53d10903291455o67d28523k6f8594d43e768b6d@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-29T21:55:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) STFU", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, Mar 29, 2009 at 5:43 PM, Stephen Hoy wrote:\n\nCassie: \"I wish we could be friends.\"\nB-R girl: \"I've got three friends...Rita, Amber, and Christabelle.\"\n- p28\n\n\nFirst things first, why does Wolfe set a scene at a Baskin-Robbins? Does it\nhave something to do with the company's 31 flavors? “Maybe it's an allusion\nto Messier 31, the Andromeda galaxy.\n\nSecond, why mention these three friends” Maybe they have something in common\nthat pertains to Wolfe's plan for AEG.\n\nIf we continue along the same theme of altered perceptions, the name 'Rita'\nsuggests the character of Rita/Camilla in David Lynch's \"Mulholland Drive.\"\nCassie shares some interesting aspects with one of the actresses in this\nfilm, including responsibility for the death of at least one of the other\ncharacters." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rita_of_Cascia\n\nThe saint's life seems thematically relevant to AEG: Her love turns a\nbad man into a good one.\n\nWhat's this about R's little brother in AEG? I don't have the book on me here.\n\n-Matt" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Stephen Hoy", "address": "stephenhoy at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-03-30T04:28:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) STFU", "in_reply_to": "<44fb53d10903291455o67d28523k6f8594d43e768b6d@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Matt Keeley asks:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What's this about R's little brother in AEG? I don't have the\nbook on me here." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "------------------\nB-R Girl: I like everyone of them fifty times more than you. Even\nChristabelle.\nCassie : Puts me in my place. Got a spoon?\nB-R Girl: I even like Rita's little brother better than you.\n- AEG p28\n------------------\n\nIf those names were rattled off by B-R Girl because they have some\nconnection to the rest of the AEG story, we'd expect to be able to identify\na Rita with a little brother who has a similar tie-in to AEG as the other\nnames. None comes to mind, which may mean I'm off-target with one or all of\nthe suggestions I've made. Still, there's a Mulholland Drive quality to AEG.\nIt seems like every time Cassie awakens, 'reality' has mutated." } ] } ] }