{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/539", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 539, "subject": "TheStarsAtNightAreBig&", "messages": 2, "voices": 2, "first": "1998-05-02T01:04:00+00:00", "last": "1998-05-11T11:09:27+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "m.driussi", "address": "m.driussi at genie.geis.com" }, "date": "1998-05-02T01:04:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TheStarsAtNightAreBig&", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mark Millman,\n\nSure, the night sky of Urth could be utterly alien to us. Severian\nknows precious little about constellations--alone in the mountains,\nhe makes up a few: \"amphisbaena\" and \"peryton.\" So we can't rely\nmuch upon his sense of canonical signs. Severian is also bad\nwith birthdays--after all, he doesn't even know when his own is.\n\nHowever! We are told that the Eight \"hang forever over the southern\nice\" (IV, ch. 25), i.e., they don't rise and set, i.e., they are pole\nstars. This pins the celestial globe a bit. To have a pole star in\nthe place it is right now is an odd detail to use if everything in\nthe sky is supposed to be weird and alien.\n\nRe: zodiac signs. You are correct in that Swan is the only one\nidentified as a birth sign. And, further, none of the other\nconstellations Severian mentions are zodiac signs for us or him (or\nso it seems). However! Heh-heh, Hethor mentions Aquarius, Pisces,\nand Aries (IV, ch. 4), fwiw, but makes no indication that they are\nzodiacal (other than listing them in that order). (And it may just\nbe another tenuous link to our own Earth and zodiac, showing Hethor's\ngreat antiquity.)\n\nFor time lines, I personally think that a million years in the future\n(from 1981 to Severian's Reign) is the outer edge and it is likely to\nbe much closer than that. Stars move a lot in even a few thousand\nyears! Constellations warp, morph, waddle, and wheedle!\n\nRe: exultants. Well, Wolfe says that khaibits are clones. The Old\nAutarch says (IIRC) that the exultants are big because of the blood and\nstuff they take from their own khaibits (\"grown from the body cells\nof exultant women so an exchange of blood will prolong the exultants'\nyouth\" [IV, ch. 24]; Ossipago speaking of Baldanders, \"Growth has its\ndisadvantages, though for your species [humans] it is the only method\nby which youth can be reinstated\" [III, ch. 34]). As such, it seems\nto me, khaibits represent unmodified exultants--further, I believe they\nare not stunted by abuse or malnutrition, since their bodies must provide\nthe royal jelly. Khaibits are natural; exultants are augmented.\n\nThe blind mount tall men of Ascian cavalry as descendents of\nexultants (i.e., the equivalant of khaibits) is a very interesting\nidea I haven't considered before. It certainly fits in a communistic\n\"what to do with the aristocrats after the revolution\" sort of way.\nInteresting. Creepy! (Maybe even the dwarves who ride them represent\nthe former khaibits? That is: the khaibits are \"ridden\" by exultants,\nbut after the revolution the lowly shall ride upon the high.) (Then\nagain, this is all \"Warg-rider\" stuff as refigured by a man named\nWolfe.)\n\n=mantis=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew Malthouse", "address": "matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk" }, "date": "1998-05-11T11:09:27+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) TheStarsAtNightAreBig&", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "m.driussi at genie.geis.com wrote:\nFor time lines, I personally think that a million years in the future\n(from 1981 to Severian's Reign) is the outer edge and it is likely to\nbe much closer than that. Stars move a lot in even a few thousand\nyears! Constellations warp, morph, waddle, and wheedle!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "and also" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Paul wrote:\nFor some time, I've been listening to the bickering about where Nessus\nactually is. The argument hinges on the fact that South America doesn't\nhave any areas with mountains to the northeast and rivers running\nsouthwest. This is untrue. When most people think of South America,\nthey think of Brazil, but the stone twon of Apu-Punchau makes it fairly\nclear that we're dealing with Inca territory -- probably Chile and\nArgentina. This makes Nessus out to be Buenos Aires, which fits in\nnicely with the Ulthan/Borges comparison -- Borges was chief librarian\nof some library or another in BA." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hi folks,\n\nI'm new here so if this is a rehash of what other's ahve said before I apologise.\n\nThe age of Urth has, from my very first reason seemed to be immense. It seemed\nto me that Wolfe took pains to emphasise this but there are three things that\nconfirm the idea for me:\n\nThe miners of Saltus have for generations made a living (shaft) mining for\nancient artifacts.\n\nWalking down the cliff trail to the forest house Severian notes that the fault\nthat lifted the cliff (a league high??) has exposed the detritus of man's\noccupation, he even describes some of what he sees I think (floor tiles?)\n\nAnd finally the \"newer\" mountain ranges are recognisable as such because they\nare sharp and rugged - in contrast to the 'old' mountain that have all be\ncarved into the likeness of past Autarchs (rather than being softened from\nweathering). Did Typhon start the fashion, or was he mearly the aprotheosis of it?\n\nIn any case Typhon's coming to Urth (which I believe to be long after its\ndecline started) is at least one and possibly many geological ages past.\n\nSo I have the inescapable feeling that we are looking at a long time, a long,\nlong time, far more than m.driussi's million year outer edge.\n\noh, and had anyone noticed that the sun looked a bit tired?\n\nIn the light of the above I don't see much good to be had trying to identify\nNessus or other landmarks from our Earth, but to nay-say Buenos Aires: Nessus\nisn't and wasn't a coastal city; the plate river isn't big enough; Severian\nturns the wrong way from Trax to reach a battlefront of an invader coming from\nCentram AM. and in relation to the Plate/Andes Cen.Am is too far away (or the\nAndes to close) to be the \"waist of the world\" beyond which the Ascians can be driven.\n\nAlso I have the idea (which I can't justify) that the southern bottom of the\ncontinent is broad and rounded. The only relationship to Earth that looked\npromising to me was tiping S.America on its side with continental drift so the\nmouth of the Amazon pointed at the antartic seas. But the same could be done\nwith the Yangtse or even the Mississippi at a streach.\n\nOkay, I'll just get my coat...\n\nMatthew" } ] } ] }