# "Principlesofgovernaaance"GeneWolfe's Politics *The Urth list — 3 messages, 3 voices, 02 Apr 2009* > Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright > in each message remains with the person who wrote it. > Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original > archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than > retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. --- ### Son of Witz *02 Apr 2009, 17:52* I read The Prince a LONG time ago... ~witz > -----Original Message----- > From: brunians at brunians.org [mailto:brunians at brunians.org] > Sent: Thursday, April 2, 2009 10:48 AM > To: 'The Urth Mailing List' > Subject: Re: (urth) "Principlesofgovernaaance"Gene Wolfe's Politics > > Witz: go read Plato's "Republic", Aristotle's "Politics" and Niccolo > Machiavelli's two works "Discourses On The First Ten Books Of Titus > Livius" and "The Prince". > > This will give you the vocabulary that you currently lack for discussing > this kind of thing. > > > > > . >> refresher quote, questions below: >> >> SHADOW XXXII Five Legs: >> """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" >> "Severian. Name for me the seven principles of governance." >> It was an effort for me to speak, but I managed (in my dream, if it was a >> dream)to say, "I do not recall that we have studied such a thing, Master." >> "You were always the most careless of my boys," he told me, and fell >> silent. >> A foreboding grew on me; I sensed that if I did not reply, some tragedy >> would >> occur. At last I began weakly, "Anarchy . . ." >> "That is not governance, but the lack of it. I taught you that it precedes >> all governance. Now list the seven sorts." >> "Attachment to the person of the monarch. Attachment to a bloodline or >> other >> sequence of succession. Attachment to the royal state. Attachment to a >> code >> legitimizing the governing state. Attachment to the law only. Attachment >> to a >> greater or lesser board of electors, as framers of the law. Attachment to >> an >> abstraction conceived as including the body of electors, other bodies >> giving >> rise to them, and numerous other elements, largely ideal." >> "Tolerable. Of these, which is the earliest form, and which the highest?" >> "The development is in the order given, Master," I said. "But I do not >> recall >> that you ever asked before which was highest?' >> Master Malrubius leaned forward, his eyes burning brighter than the coals >> of the >> fire. "Which is highest, Severian?" >> "The last, Master?" >> "You mean attachment to an abstraction conceived as including the body of >> electors, other bodies giving rise to them, and numerous other elements, >> largely ideal?" >> "Yes, Master." >> "Of what kind, Severian, is your own attachment to the Divine Entity?" >> I said nothing. It may have been that I was thinking; but if so, my mind >> was too much filled with sleep to be conscious of its thought. Instead, I >> became >> profoundly aware of my physical surroundings. The sky above my face in all >> its >> grandeur seemed to have been made solely for my benefit, and to be >> presented for my inspection now. I lay upon the ground as upon a woman, >> and the very air that surrounded me seemed a thing as admirable as crystal >> and as fluid as wine. >> "Answer me, Severian." >> "The first, if I have any." >> "To the person of the monarch?" >> "Yes, because there is no succession." >> "The animal that rests beside you now would die for you. Of what kind is >> his >> attachment to you?" >> "The first?" >> """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" >> >> ok, is the last one meant to be a joke about our current situation? >> Abstraction, largely ideal. >> >> maybe some conservatives can help me out here. >> "Attachment to the person of the monarch" >> >> On one hand, I don't understand how "Attachment to" is governance. Are >> the people attached, or is the governance attached? >> >> Another question this brings up for me. This notion of a Divine Ruler... >> You get it in the Grail myths, and I suppose in the Jesus Myth, this idea >> of bringing back the Divine King. I'm not sure if that's right, but it's >> something that seems to come up in various traditions. Anyway, While >> anyone could sort of get behind letting God's Vicar rule, if it could be >> proven. Yet we've had plenty of crappy rulers claiming God's mandate. >> anyway, How can this idea of a Monarch that is the best system jibe with >> reality lacking an unambiguous 'seal of approval' from God? >> >> Let me rephrase? This seems like a sort of religious right position >> (maybe I'm totally wrong) So, would anyone toss away democracy in favor >> of a monarch? How can this notion not be "largely ideal" when it hinges >> upon the character of a single person? >> >> I'm not sure if I'm making this clear. I'm trying to understand how this >> can be considered the highest state of governance in a practical, >> non-ideal world. >> >> just asking... >> >> ~Witz >> >> >> _______________________________________________ --- ### brunians at brunians.org *02 Apr 2009, 18:05 · in reply to Son of Witz* OK, reread it and read the other three. . > I read The Prince a LONG time ago... > > ~witz >> -----Original Message----- >> From: brunians at brunians.org [mailto:brunians at brunians.org] >> Sent: Thursday, April 2, 2009 10:48 AM >> To: 'The Urth Mailing List' >> Subject: Re: (urth) "Principlesofgovernaaance"Gene Wolfe's Politics >> >> Witz: go read Plato's "Republic", Aristotle's "Politics" and Niccolo >> Machiavelli's two works "Discourses On The First Ten Books Of Titus >> Livius" and "The Prince". >> >> This will give you the vocabulary that you currently lack for discussing >> this kind of thing. >> >> >> >> >> . >>> refresher quote, questions below: >>> >>> SHADOW XXXII Five Legs: >>> """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" >>> "Severian. Name for me the seven principles of governance." >>> It was an effort for me to speak, but I managed (in my dream, if it was >>> a >>> dream)to say, "I do not recall that we have studied such a thing, >>> Master." >>> "You were always the most careless of my boys," he told me, and fell >>> silent. >>> A foreboding grew on me; I sensed that if I did not reply, some tragedy >>> would >>> occur. At last I began weakly, "Anarchy . . ." >>> "That is not governance, but the lack of it. I taught you that it >>> precedes >>> all governance. Now list the seven sorts." >>> "Attachment to the person of the monarch. Attachment to a bloodline or >>> other >>> sequence of succession. Attachment to the royal state. Attachment to a >>> code >>> legitimizing the governing state. Attachment to the law only. >>> Attachment >>> to a >>> greater or lesser board of electors, as framers of the law. Attachment >>> to >>> an >>> abstraction conceived as including the body of electors, other bodies >>> giving >>> rise to them, and numerous other elements, largely ideal." >>> "Tolerable. Of these, which is the earliest form, and which the >>> highest?" >>> "The development is in the order given, Master," I said. "But I do not >>> recall >>> that you ever asked before which was highest?' >>> Master Malrubius leaned forward, his eyes burning brighter than the >>> coals >>> of the >>> fire. "Which is highest, Severian?" >>> "The last, Master?" >>> "You mean attachment to an abstraction conceived as including the body >>> of >>> electors, other bodies giving rise to them, and numerous other >>> elements, >>> largely ideal?" >>> "Yes, Master." >>> "Of what kind, Severian, is your own attachment to the Divine Entity?" >>> I said nothing. It may have been that I was thinking; but if so, my >>> mind >>> was too much filled with sleep to be conscious of its thought. Instead, >>> I >>> became >>> profoundly aware of my physical surroundings. The sky above my face in >>> all >>> its >>> grandeur seemed to have been made solely for my benefit, and to be >>> presented for my inspection now. I lay upon the ground as upon a woman, >>> and the very air that surrounded me seemed a thing as admirable as >>> crystal >>> and as fluid as wine. >>> "Answer me, Severian." >>> "The first, if I have any." >>> "To the person of the monarch?" >>> "Yes, because there is no succession." >>> "The animal that rests beside you now would die for you. Of what kind >>> is >>> his >>> attachment to you?" >>> "The first?" >>> """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" >>> >>> ok, is the last one meant to be a joke about our current situation? >>> Abstraction, largely ideal. >>> >>> maybe some conservatives can help me out here. >>> "Attachment to the person of the monarch" >>> >>> On one hand, I don't understand how "Attachment to" is governance. Are >>> the people attached, or is the governance attached? >>> >>> Another question this brings up for me. This notion of a Divine >>> Ruler... >>> You get it in the Grail myths, and I suppose in the Jesus Myth, this >>> idea >>> of bringing back the Divine King. I'm not sure if that's right, but >>> it's >>> something that seems to come up in various traditions. Anyway, While >>> anyone could sort of get behind letting God's Vicar rule, if it could >>> be >>> proven. Yet we've had plenty of crappy rulers claiming God's mandate. >>> anyway, How can this idea of a Monarch that is the best system jibe >>> with >>> reality lacking an unambiguous 'seal of approval' from God? >>> >>> Let me rephrase? This seems like a sort of religious right position >>> (maybe I'm totally wrong) So, would anyone toss away democracy in >>> favor >>> of a monarch? How can this notion not be "largely ideal" when it >>> hinges >>> upon the character of a single person? >>> >>> I'm not sure if I'm making this clear. I'm trying to understand how >>> this >>> can be considered the highest state of governance in a practical, >>> non-ideal world. >>> >>> just asking... >>> >>> ~Witz >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ --- ### Stanislaus B. *02 Apr 2009, 19:55 · in reply to brunians at brunians.org* An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ---