"Principlesofgovernaaance"GeneWolfe's Politics The Urth list — 3 messages, 3 voices, 02 Apr 2009 https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5392 Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. ============================================================================== Son of Witz — 02 Apr 2009, 17:52 I read The Prince a LONG time ago... ~witz > -----Original Message----- > From: brunians at brunians.org [mailto:brunians at brunians.org] > Sent: Thursday, April 2, 2009 10:48 AM > To: 'The Urth Mailing List' > Subject: Re: (urth) "Principlesofgovernaaance"Gene Wolfe's Politics > > Witz: go read Plato's "Republic", Aristotle's "Politics" and Niccolo > Machiavelli's two works "Discourses On The First Ten Books Of Titus > Livius" and "The Prince". > > This will give you the vocabulary that you currently lack for discussing > this kind of thing. > > > > > . > > refresher quote, questions below: > > > > SHADOW XXXII Five Legs: > > """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" > > "Severian. Name for me the seven principles of governance." > > It was an effort for me to speak, but I managed (in my dream, if it was a > > dream)to say, "I do not recall that we have studied such a thing, Master." > > "You were always the most careless of my boys," he told me, and fell > > silent. > > A foreboding grew on me; I sensed that if I did not reply, some tragedy > > would > > occur. At last I began weakly, "Anarchy . . ." > > "That is not governance, but the lack of it. I taught you that it precedes > > all governance. Now list the seven sorts." > > "Attachment to the person of the monarch. Attachment to a bloodline or > > other > > sequence of succession. Attachment to the royal state. Attachment to a > > code > > legitimizing the governing state. Attachment to the law only. Attachment > > to a > > greater or lesser board of electors, as framers of the law. Attachment to > > an > > abstraction conceived as including the body of electors, other bodies > > giving > > rise to them, and numerous other elements, largely ideal." > > "Tolerable. Of these, which is the earliest form, and which the highest?" > > "The development is in the order given, Master," I said. "But I do not > > recall > > that you ever asked before which was highest?' > > Master Malrubius leaned forward, his eyes burning brighter than the coals > > of the > > fire. "Which is highest, Severian?" > > "The last, Master?" > > "You mean attachment to an abstraction conceived as including the body of > > electors, other bodies giving rise to them, and numerous other elements, > > largely ideal?" > > "Yes, Master." > > "Of what kind, Severian, is your own attachment to the Divine Entity?" > > I said nothing. It may have been that I was thinking; but if so, my mind > > was too much filled with sleep to be conscious of its thought. Instead, I > > became > > profoundly aware of my physical surroundings. The sky above my face in all > > its > > grandeur seemed to have been made solely for my benefit, and to be > > presented for my inspection now. I lay upon the ground as upon a woman, > > and the very air that surrounded me seemed a thing as admirable as crystal > > and as fluid as wine. > > "Answer me, Severian." > > "The first, if I have any." > > "To the person of the monarch?" > > "Yes, because there is no succession." > > "The animal that rests beside you now would die for you. Of what kind is > > his > > attachment to you?" > > "The first?" > > """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" > > > > ok, is the last one meant to be a joke about our current situation? > > Abstraction, largely ideal. > > > > maybe some conservatives can help me out here. > > "Attachment to the person of the monarch" > > > > On one hand, I don't understand how "Attachment to" is governance. Are > > the people attached, or is the governance attached? > > > > Another question this brings up for me. This notion of a Divine Ruler... > > You get it in the Grail myths, and I suppose in the Jesus Myth, this idea > > of bringing back the Divine King. I'm not sure if that's right, but it's > > something that seems to come up in various traditions. Anyway, While > > anyone could sort of get behind letting God's Vicar rule, if it could be > > proven. Yet we've had plenty of crappy rulers claiming God's mandate. > > anyway, How can this idea of a Monarch that is the best system jibe with > > reality lacking an unambiguous 'seal of approval' from God? > > > > Let me rephrase? This seems like a sort of religious right position > > (maybe I'm totally wrong) So, would anyone toss away democracy in favor > > of a monarch? How can this notion not be "largely ideal" when it hinges > > upon the character of a single person? > > > > I'm not sure if I'm making this clear. I'm trying to understand how this > > can be considered the highest state of governance in a practical, > > non-ideal world. > > > > just asking... > > > > ~Witz > > > > > > _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ brunians at brunians.org — 02 Apr 2009, 18:05 in reply to Son of Witz OK, reread it and read the other three. . > I read The Prince a LONG time ago... > > ~witz > > -----Original Message----- > > From: brunians at brunians.org [mailto:brunians at brunians.org] > > Sent: Thursday, April 2, 2009 10:48 AM > > To: 'The Urth Mailing List' > > Subject: Re: (urth) "Principlesofgovernaaance"Gene Wolfe's Politics > > > > Witz: go read Plato's "Republic", Aristotle's "Politics" and Niccolo > > Machiavelli's two works "Discourses On The First Ten Books Of Titus > > Livius" and "The Prince". > > > > This will give you the vocabulary that you currently lack for discussing > > this kind of thing. > > > > > > > > > > . > > > refresher quote, questions below: > > > > > > SHADOW XXXII Five Legs: > > > """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" > > > "Severian. Name for me the seven principles of governance." > > > It was an effort for me to speak, but I managed (in my dream, if it was > > > a > > > dream)to say, "I do not recall that we have studied such a thing, > > > Master." > > > "You were always the most careless of my boys," he told me, and fell > > > silent. > > > A foreboding grew on me; I sensed that if I did not reply, some tragedy > > > would > > > occur. At last I began weakly, "Anarchy . . ." > > > "That is not governance, but the lack of it. I taught you that it > > > precedes > > > all governance. Now list the seven sorts." > > > "Attachment to the person of the monarch. Attachment to a bloodline or > > > other > > > sequence of succession. Attachment to the royal state. Attachment to a > > > code > > > legitimizing the governing state. Attachment to the law only. > > > Attachment > > > to a > > > greater or lesser board of electors, as framers of the law. Attachment > > > to > > > an > > > abstraction conceived as including the body of electors, other bodies > > > giving > > > rise to them, and numerous other elements, largely ideal." > > > "Tolerable. Of these, which is the earliest form, and which the > > > highest?" > > > "The development is in the order given, Master," I said. "But I do not > > > recall > > > that you ever asked before which was highest?' > > > Master Malrubius leaned forward, his eyes burning brighter than the > > > coals > > > of the > > > fire. "Which is highest, Severian?" > > > "The last, Master?" > > > "You mean attachment to an abstraction conceived as including the body > > > of > > > electors, other bodies giving rise to them, and numerous other > > > elements, > > > largely ideal?" > > > "Yes, Master." > > > "Of what kind, Severian, is your own attachment to the Divine Entity?" > > > I said nothing. It may have been that I was thinking; but if so, my > > > mind > > > was too much filled with sleep to be conscious of its thought. Instead, > > > I > > > became > > > profoundly aware of my physical surroundings. The sky above my face in > > > all > > > its > > > grandeur seemed to have been made solely for my benefit, and to be > > > presented for my inspection now. I lay upon the ground as upon a woman, > > > and the very air that surrounded me seemed a thing as admirable as > > > crystal > > > and as fluid as wine. > > > "Answer me, Severian." > > > "The first, if I have any." > > > "To the person of the monarch?" > > > "Yes, because there is no succession." > > > "The animal that rests beside you now would die for you. Of what kind > > > is > > > his > > > attachment to you?" > > > "The first?" > > > """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" > > > > > > ok, is the last one meant to be a joke about our current situation? > > > Abstraction, largely ideal. > > > > > > maybe some conservatives can help me out here. > > > "Attachment to the person of the monarch" > > > > > > On one hand, I don't understand how "Attachment to" is governance. Are > > > the people attached, or is the governance attached? > > > > > > Another question this brings up for me. This notion of a Divine > > > Ruler... > > > You get it in the Grail myths, and I suppose in the Jesus Myth, this > > > idea > > > of bringing back the Divine King. I'm not sure if that's right, but > > > it's > > > something that seems to come up in various traditions. Anyway, While > > > anyone could sort of get behind letting God's Vicar rule, if it could > > > be > > > proven. Yet we've had plenty of crappy rulers claiming God's mandate. > > > anyway, How can this idea of a Monarch that is the best system jibe > > > with > > > reality lacking an unambiguous 'seal of approval' from God? > > > > > > Let me rephrase? This seems like a sort of religious right position > > > (maybe I'm totally wrong) So, would anyone toss away democracy in > > > favor > > > of a monarch? How can this notion not be "largely ideal" when it > > > hinges > > > upon the character of a single person? > > > > > > I'm not sure if I'm making this clear. I'm trying to understand how > > > this > > > can be considered the highest state of governance in a practical, > > > non-ideal world. > > > > > > just asking... > > > > > > ~Witz > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Stanislaus B. — 02 Apr 2009, 19:55 in reply to brunians at brunians.org An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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