{
  "export": {
    "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5393",
    "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it.  Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.",
    "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'"
  },
  "archive": "urth",
  "thread": {
    "id": 5393,
    "subject": "\"Principlesofgovernaaance\"GeneWolllfe's       Politics",
    "messages": 9,
    "voices": 5,
    "first": "2009-04-02T19:08:30+00:00",
    "last": "2009-04-02T20:14:11+00:00"
  },
  "messages": [
    {
      "message_id": "<W9926023345269371238699310@webmail56>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Son of Witz",
        "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org"
      },
      "date": "2009-04-02T19:08:30+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) \"Principlesofgovernaaance\"GeneWolllfe's       Politics",
      "in_reply_to": null,
      "reply_link": null,
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "Thanks for your help there, Brunians. priceless."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org [mailto:brunians at brunians.org]\nSent: Thursday, April 2, 2009 11:05 AM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) \"Principlesofgovernaaance\"GeneWolfe's    Politics\n\nOK, reread it and read the other three.\n\n\n\n\n."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 2,
          "text": "I read The Prince a LONG time ago...\n\n~witz"
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 3,
          "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org [mailto:brunians at brunians.org]\nSent: Thursday, April 2, 2009 10:48 AM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) \"Principlesofgovernaaance\"Gene Wolfe's Politics\n\nWitz: go read Plato's \"Republic\", Aristotle's \"Politics\" and Niccolo\nMachiavelli's two works \"Discourses On The First Ten Books Of Titus\nLivius\" and \"The Prince\".\n\nThis will give you the vocabulary that you currently lack for discussing\nthis kind of thing.\n\n\n\n\n."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 4,
          "text": "refresher quote, questions below:\n\nSHADOW XXXII Five Legs:\n\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\n\"Severian. Name for me the seven principles of governance.\"\nIt was an effort for me to speak, but I managed (in my dream, if it was\na\ndream)to say, \"I do not recall that we have studied such a thing,\nMaster.\"\n\"You were always the most careless of my boys,\" he told me, and fell\nsilent.\nA foreboding grew on me; I sensed that if I did not reply, some tragedy\nwould\noccur. At last I began weakly, \"Anarchy . . .\"\n\"That is not governance, but the lack of it. I taught you that it\nprecedes\nall governance. Now list the seven sorts.\"\n\"Attachment to the person of the monarch. Attachment to a bloodline or\nother\nsequence of succession. Attachment to the royal state. Attachment to a\ncode\nlegitimizing the governing state. Attachment to the law only.\nAttachment\nto a\ngreater or lesser board of electors, as framers of the law. Attachment\nto\nan\nabstraction conceived as including the body of electors, other bodies\ngiving\nrise to them, and numerous other elements, largely ideal.\"\n\"Tolerable. Of these, which is the earliest form, and which the\nhighest?\"\n\"The development is in the order given, Master,\" I said. \"But I do not\nrecall\nthat you ever asked before which was highest?'\nMaster Malrubius leaned forward, his eyes burning brighter than the\ncoals\nof the\nfire. \"Which is highest, Severian?\"\n\"The last, Master?\"\n\"You mean attachment to an abstraction conceived as including the body\nof\nelectors, other bodies giving rise to them, and numerous other\nelements,\nlargely ideal?\"\n\"Yes, Master.\"\n\"Of what kind, Severian, is your own attachment to the Divine Entity?\"\nI said nothing. It may have been that I was thinking; but if so, my\nmind\nwas too much filled with sleep to be conscious of its thought. Instead,\nI\nbecame\nprofoundly aware of my physical surroundings. The sky above my face in\nall\nits\ngrandeur seemed to have been made solely for my benefit, and to be\npresented for my inspection now. I lay upon the ground as upon a woman,\nand the very air that surrounded me seemed a thing as admirable as\ncrystal\nand as fluid as wine.\n\"Answer me, Severian.\"\n\"The first, if I have any.\"\n\"To the person of the monarch?\"\n\"Yes, because there is no succession.\"\n\"The animal that rests beside you now would die for you. Of what kind\nis\nhis\nattachment to you?\"\n\"The first?\"\n\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\n\nok, is the last one meant to be a joke about our current situation?\nAbstraction, largely ideal.\n\nmaybe some conservatives can help me out here.\n\"Attachment to the person of the monarch\"\n\nOn one hand, I don't understand how \"Attachment to\" is governance.  Are\nthe people attached, or is the governance attached?\n\nAnother question this brings up for me.  This notion of a Divine\nRuler...\nYou get it in the Grail myths, and I suppose in the Jesus Myth, this\nidea\nof bringing back the Divine King. I'm not sure if that's right, but\nit's\nsomething that seems to come up in various traditions.  Anyway, While\nanyone could sort of get behind letting God's Vicar rule, if it could\nbe\nproven. Yet we've had plenty of crappy rulers claiming God's mandate.\nanyway, How can this idea of a Monarch that is the best system jibe\nwith\nreality lacking an unambiguous 'seal of approval' from God?\n\nLet me rephrase?  This seems like a sort of religious right position\n(maybe I'm totally wrong)  So, would anyone toss away democracy in\nfavor\nof a monarch? How can this notion not be \"largely ideal\"  when it\nhinges\nupon the character of a single person?\n\nI'm not sure if I'm making this clear. I'm trying to understand how\nthis\ncan be considered the highest state of governance in a practical,\nnon-ideal world.\n\njust asking...\n\n~Witz\n\n\n_______________________________________________"
        }
      ]
    },
    {
      "message_id": "<6417.67.142.130.34.1238699460.squirrel@brunians.org>",
      "from": {
        "name": "brunians at brunians.org",
        "address": "brunians at brunians.org"
      },
      "date": "2009-04-02T19:11:00+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) \"Principlesofgovernaaance\"GeneWolllfe's       Politics",
      "in_reply_to": "<W9926023345269371238699310@webmail56>",
      "reply_link": "header",
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "You'll thank me even more after you read them, and also embarrass yourself\nless when you choose to discuss these matters.\n\n\n\n\n\n."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "Thanks for your help there, Brunians. priceless."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 2,
          "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org [mailto:brunians at brunians.org]\nSent: Thursday, April 2, 2009 11:05 AM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) \"Principlesofgovernaaance\"GeneWolfe's    Politics\n\nOK, reread it and read the other three.\n\n\n\n\n."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 3,
          "text": "I read The Prince a LONG time ago...\n\n~witz"
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 4,
          "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org [mailto:brunians at brunians.org]\nSent: Thursday, April 2, 2009 10:48 AM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) \"Principlesofgovernaaance\"Gene Wolfe's Politics\n\nWitz: go read Plato's \"Republic\", Aristotle's \"Politics\" and Niccolo\nMachiavelli's two works \"Discourses On The First Ten Books Of Titus\nLivius\" and \"The Prince\".\n\nThis will give you the vocabulary that you currently lack for\ndiscussing\nthis kind of thing.\n\n\n\n\n."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 5,
          "text": "refresher quote, questions below:\n\nSHADOW XXXII Five Legs:\n\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\n\"Severian. Name for me the seven principles of governance.\"\nIt was an effort for me to speak, but I managed (in my dream, if it\nwas\na\ndream)to say, \"I do not recall that we have studied such a thing,\nMaster.\"\n\"You were always the most careless of my boys,\" he told me, and fell\nsilent.\nA foreboding grew on me; I sensed that if I did not reply, some\ntragedy\nwould\noccur. At last I began weakly, \"Anarchy . . .\"\n\"That is not governance, but the lack of it. I taught you that it\nprecedes\nall governance. Now list the seven sorts.\"\n\"Attachment to the person of the monarch. Attachment to a bloodline\nor\nother\nsequence of succession. Attachment to the royal state. Attachment to\na\ncode\nlegitimizing the governing state. Attachment to the law only.\nAttachment\nto a\ngreater or lesser board of electors, as framers of the law.\nAttachment\nto\nan\nabstraction conceived as including the body of electors, other bodies\ngiving\nrise to them, and numerous other elements, largely ideal.\"\n\"Tolerable. Of these, which is the earliest form, and which the\nhighest?\"\n\"The development is in the order given, Master,\" I said. \"But I do\nnot\nrecall\nthat you ever asked before which was highest?'\nMaster Malrubius leaned forward, his eyes burning brighter than the\ncoals\nof the\nfire. \"Which is highest, Severian?\"\n\"The last, Master?\"\n\"You mean attachment to an abstraction conceived as including the\nbody\nof\nelectors, other bodies giving rise to them, and numerous other\nelements,\nlargely ideal?\"\n\"Yes, Master.\"\n\"Of what kind, Severian, is your own attachment to the Divine\nEntity?\"\nI said nothing. It may have been that I was thinking; but if so, my\nmind\nwas too much filled with sleep to be conscious of its thought.\nInstead,\nI\nbecame\nprofoundly aware of my physical surroundings. The sky above my face\nin\nall\nits\ngrandeur seemed to have been made solely for my benefit, and to be\npresented for my inspection now. I lay upon the ground as upon a\nwoman,\nand the very air that surrounded me seemed a thing as admirable as\ncrystal\nand as fluid as wine.\n\"Answer me, Severian.\"\n\"The first, if I have any.\"\n\"To the person of the monarch?\"\n\"Yes, because there is no succession.\"\n\"The animal that rests beside you now would die for you. Of what kind\nis\nhis\nattachment to you?\"\n\"The first?\"\n\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\n\nok, is the last one meant to be a joke about our current situation?\nAbstraction, largely ideal.\n\nmaybe some conservatives can help me out here.\n\"Attachment to the person of the monarch\"\n\nOn one hand, I don't understand how \"Attachment to\" is governance.\nAre\nthe people attached, or is the governance attached?\n\nAnother question this brings up for me.  This notion of a Divine\nRuler...\nYou get it in the Grail myths, and I suppose in the Jesus Myth, this\nidea\nof bringing back the Divine King. I'm not sure if that's right, but\nit's\nsomething that seems to come up in various traditions.  Anyway, While\nanyone could sort of get behind letting God's Vicar rule, if it could\nbe\nproven. Yet we've had plenty of crappy rulers claiming God's mandate.\nanyway, How can this idea of a Monarch that is the best system jibe\nwith\nreality lacking an unambiguous 'seal of approval' from God?\n\nLet me rephrase?  This seems like a sort of religious right position\n(maybe I'm totally wrong)  So, would anyone toss away democracy in\nfavor\nof a monarch? How can this notion not be \"largely ideal\"  when it\nhinges\nupon the character of a single person?\n\nI'm not sure if I'm making this clear. I'm trying to understand how\nthis\ncan be considered the highest state of governance in a practical,\nnon-ideal world.\n\njust asking...\n\n~Witz\n\n\n_______________________________________________"
        }
      ]
    },
    {
      "message_id": "<93d4039f0904021212l604984c2t3fbf9544ffb7dc1f@mail.gmail.com>",
      "from": {
        "name": "John Watkins",
        "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com"
      },
      "date": "2009-04-02T19:12:30+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) \"Principlesofgovernaaance\"GeneWolllfe's Politics",
      "in_reply_to": "<6417.67.142.130.34.1238699460.squirrel@brunians.org>",
      "reply_link": "header",
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "Is this called for?  Son of Witz asked a sincere question."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 3:11 PM, <brunians at brunians.org> wrote:\nYou'll thank me even more after you read them, and also embarrass yourself\nless when you choose to discuss these matters.\n\n\n\n\n\n."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 2,
          "text": "Thanks for your help there, Brunians. priceless."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 3,
          "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org [mailto:brunians at brunians.org]\nSent: Thursday, April 2, 2009 11:05 AM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) \"Principlesofgovernaaance\"GeneWolfe's    Politics\n\nOK, reread it and read the other three.\n\n\n\n\n."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 4,
          "text": "I read The Prince a LONG time ago...\n\n~witz"
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 5,
          "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org [mailto:brunians at brunians.org]\nSent: Thursday, April 2, 2009 10:48 AM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) \"Principlesofgovernaaance\"Gene Wolfe's Politics\n\nWitz: go read Plato's \"Republic\", Aristotle's \"Politics\" and Niccolo\nMachiavelli's two works \"Discourses On The First Ten Books Of Titus\nLivius\" and \"The Prince\".\n\nThis will give you the vocabulary that you currently lack for\ndiscussing\nthis kind of thing.\n\n\n\n\n."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 6,
          "text": "refresher quote, questions below:\n\nSHADOW XXXII Five Legs:\n\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\n\"Severian. Name for me the seven principles of governance.\"\nIt was an effort for me to speak, but I managed (in my dream, if it\nwas\na\ndream)to say, \"I do not recall that we have studied such a thing,\nMaster.\"\n\"You were always the most careless of my boys,\" he told me, and fell\nsilent.\nA foreboding grew on me; I sensed that if I did not reply, some\ntragedy\nwould\noccur. At last I began weakly, \"Anarchy . . .\"\n\"That is not governance, but the lack of it. I taught you that it\nprecedes\nall governance. Now list the seven sorts.\"\n\"Attachment to the person of the monarch. Attachment to a bloodline\nor\nother\nsequence of succession. Attachment to the royal state. Attachment to\na\ncode\nlegitimizing the governing state. Attachment to the law only.\nAttachment\nto a\ngreater or lesser board of electors, as framers of the law.\nAttachment\nto\nan\nabstraction conceived as including the body of electors, other bodies\ngiving\nrise to them, and numerous other elements, largely ideal.\"\n\"Tolerable. Of these, which is the earliest form, and which the\nhighest?\"\n\"The development is in the order given, Master,\" I said. \"But I do\nnot\nrecall\nthat you ever asked before which was highest?'\nMaster Malrubius leaned forward, his eyes burning brighter than the\ncoals\nof the\nfire. \"Which is highest, Severian?\"\n\"The last, Master?\"\n\"You mean attachment to an abstraction conceived as including the\nbody\nof\nelectors, other bodies giving rise to them, and numerous other\nelements,\nlargely ideal?\"\n\"Yes, Master.\"\n\"Of what kind, Severian, is your own attachment to the Divine\nEntity?\"\nI said nothing. It may have been that I was thinking; but if so, my\nmind\nwas too much filled with sleep to be conscious of its thought.\nInstead,\nI\nbecame\nprofoundly aware of my physical surroundings. The sky above my face\nin\nall\nits\ngrandeur seemed to have been made solely for my benefit, and to be\npresented for my inspection now. I lay upon the ground as upon a\nwoman,\nand the very air that surrounded me seemed a thing as admirable as\ncrystal\nand as fluid as wine.\n\"Answer me, Severian.\"\n\"The first, if I have any.\"\n\"To the person of the monarch?\"\n\"Yes, because there is no succession.\"\n\"The animal that rests beside you now would die for you. Of what kind\nis\nhis\nattachment to you?\"\n\"The first?\"\n\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\n\nok, is the last one meant to be a joke about our current situation?\nAbstraction, largely ideal.\n\nmaybe some conservatives can help me out here.\n\"Attachment to the person of the monarch\"\n\nOn one hand, I don't understand how \"Attachment to\" is governance.\nAre\nthe people attached, or is the governance attached?\n\nAnother question this brings up for me.  This notion of a Divine\nRuler...\nYou get it in the Grail myths, and I suppose in the Jesus Myth, this\nidea\nof bringing back the Divine King. I'm not sure if that's right, but\nit's\nsomething that seems to come up in various traditions.  Anyway, While\nanyone could sort of get behind letting God's Vicar rule, if it could\nbe\nproven. Yet we've had plenty of crappy rulers claiming God's mandate.\nanyway, How can this idea of a Monarch that is the best system jibe\nwith\nreality lacking an unambiguous 'seal of approval' from God?\n\nLet me rephrase?  This seems like a sort of religious right position\n(maybe I'm totally wrong)  So, would anyone toss away democracy in\nfavor\nof a monarch? How can this notion not be \"largely ideal\"  when it\nhinges\nupon the character of a single person?\n\nI'm not sure if I'm making this clear. I'm trying to understand how\nthis\ncan be considered the highest state of governance in a practical,\nnon-ideal world.\n\njust asking...\n\n~Witz\n\n\n_______________________________________________"
        }
      ]
    },
    {
      "message_id": "<273409710904021217x6ddb3fdcrad05b23e54d01ae4@mail.gmail.com>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Jordon Flato",
        "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com"
      },
      "date": "2009-04-02T19:17:53+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) \"Principlesofgovernaaance\"GeneWolllfe's Politics",
      "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0904021212l604984c2t3fbf9544ffb7dc1f@mail.gmail.com>",
      "reply_link": "header",
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "For someone who continually tries to intimate that they maintain a civil\nlevel of discourse on these matters, you nearly always come off as horribly\ncondescending, brunians, truly.  I say this not to be rude, but to point out\nsomething that is patently obvious to most on this board, I think.  It's\nsomething to examine, I think."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 12:12 PM, John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>wrote:\nIs this called for?  Son of Witz asked a sincere question.\n\n\nOn Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 3:11 PM, <brunians at brunians.org> wrote:"
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 2,
          "text": "You'll thank me even more after you read them, and also embarrass yourself\nless when you choose to discuss these matters.\n\n\n\n\n\n."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 3,
          "text": "Thanks for your help there, Brunians. priceless."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 4,
          "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org [mailto:brunians at brunians.org]\nSent: Thursday, April 2, 2009 11:05 AM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) \"Principlesofgovernaaance\"GeneWolfe's    Politics\n\nOK, reread it and read the other three.\n\n\n\n\n."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 5,
          "text": "I read The Prince a LONG time ago...\n\n~witz"
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 6,
          "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org [mailto:brunians at brunians.org]\nSent: Thursday, April 2, 2009 10:48 AM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) \"Principlesofgovernaaance\"Gene Wolfe's Politics\n\nWitz: go read Plato's \"Republic\", Aristotle's \"Politics\" and Niccolo\nMachiavelli's two works \"Discourses On The First Ten Books Of Titus\nLivius\" and \"The Prince\".\n\nThis will give you the vocabulary that you currently lack for\ndiscussing\nthis kind of thing.\n\n\n\n\n."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 7,
          "text": "refresher quote, questions below:\n\nSHADOW XXXII Five Legs:\n\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\n\"Severian. Name for me the seven principles of governance.\"\nIt was an effort for me to speak, but I managed (in my dream, if it\nwas\na\ndream)to say, \"I do not recall that we have studied such a thing,\nMaster.\"\n\"You were always the most careless of my boys,\" he told me, and fell\nsilent.\nA foreboding grew on me; I sensed that if I did not reply, some\ntragedy\nwould\noccur. At last I began weakly, \"Anarchy . . .\"\n\"That is not governance, but the lack of it. I taught you that it\nprecedes\nall governance. Now list the seven sorts.\"\n\"Attachment to the person of the monarch. Attachment to a bloodline\nor\nother\nsequence of succession. Attachment to the royal state. Attachment to\na\ncode\nlegitimizing the governing state. Attachment to the law only.\nAttachment\nto a\ngreater or lesser board of electors, as framers of the law.\nAttachment\nto\nan\nabstraction conceived as including the body of electors, other\nbodies\ngiving\nrise to them, and numerous other elements, largely ideal.\"\n\"Tolerable. Of these, which is the earliest form, and which the\nhighest?\"\n\"The development is in the order given, Master,\" I said. \"But I do\nnot\nrecall\nthat you ever asked before which was highest?'\nMaster Malrubius leaned forward, his eyes burning brighter than the\ncoals\nof the\nfire. \"Which is highest, Severian?\"\n\"The last, Master?\"\n\"You mean attachment to an abstraction conceived as including the\nbody\nof\nelectors, other bodies giving rise to them, and numerous other\nelements,\nlargely ideal?\"\n\"Yes, Master.\"\n\"Of what kind, Severian, is your own attachment to the Divine\nEntity?\"\nI said nothing. It may have been that I was thinking; but if so, my\nmind\nwas too much filled with sleep to be conscious of its thought.\nInstead,\nI\nbecame\nprofoundly aware of my physical surroundings. The sky above my face\nin\nall\nits\ngrandeur seemed to have been made solely for my benefit, and to be\npresented for my inspection now. I lay upon the ground as upon a\nwoman,\nand the very air that surrounded me seemed a thing as admirable as\ncrystal\nand as fluid as wine.\n\"Answer me, Severian.\"\n\"The first, if I have any.\"\n\"To the person of the monarch?\"\n\"Yes, because there is no succession.\"\n\"The animal that rests beside you now would die for you. Of what\nkind\nis\nhis\nattachment to you?\"\n\"The first?\"\n\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\n\nok, is the last one meant to be a joke about our current situation?\nAbstraction, largely ideal.\n\nmaybe some conservatives can help me out here.\n\"Attachment to the person of the monarch\"\n\nOn one hand, I don't understand how \"Attachment to\" is governance.\nAre\nthe people attached, or is the governance attached?\n\nAnother question this brings up for me.  This notion of a Divine\nRuler...\nYou get it in the Grail myths, and I suppose in the Jesus Myth, this\nidea\nof bringing back the Divine King. I'm not sure if that's right, but\nit's\nsomething that seems to come up in various traditions.  Anyway,\nWhile\nanyone could sort of get behind letting God's Vicar rule, if it\ncould\nbe\nproven. Yet we've had plenty of crappy rulers claiming God's\nmandate.\nanyway, How can this idea of a Monarch that is the best system jibe\nwith\nreality lacking an unambiguous 'seal of approval' from God?\n\nLet me rephrase?  This seems like a sort of religious right position\n(maybe I'm totally wrong)  So, would anyone toss away democracy in\nfavor\nof a monarch? How can this notion not be \"largely ideal\"  when it\nhinges\nupon the character of a single person?\n\nI'm not sure if I'm making this clear. I'm trying to understand how\nthis\ncan be considered the highest state of governance in a practical,\nnon-ideal world.\n\njust asking...\n\n~Witz\n\n\n_______________________________________________"
        }
      ]
    },
    {
      "message_id": "<674421.19109.qm@web63904.mail.re1.yahoo.com>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Fred Kiesche",
        "address": "recursive_loop at yahoo.com"
      },
      "date": "2009-04-02T19:32:17+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) \"Principlesofgovernaaance\"GeneWolllfe's       Politics",
      "in_reply_to": "<6417.67.142.130.34.1238699460.squirrel@brunians.org>",
      "reply_link": "header",
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "Glad to see that we are once again at the level of \"civil discourse\".\n\n\nF.P. Kiesche III\n\"Ah Mr. Gibbon, another damned, fat, square book. Always, scribble, scribble, scribble, eh?\" (The Duke of Gloucester, on being presented with Volume 2 of The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.) Blogging at The Lensman's Children and TexasBestGrok!\n\n--- On Thu, 4/2/09, brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org> wrote:\n\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>\nSubject: Re: (urth) \"Principlesofgovernaaance\"GeneWolllfe's Politics\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" <urth at lists.urth.net>\nDate: Thursday, April 2, 2009, 3:11 PM\n\nYou'll thank me even more after you read them, and also embarrass yourself\nless when you choose to discuss these matters.\n\n\n\n\n\n."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "Thanks for your help there, Brunians. priceless."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 2,
          "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org [mailto:brunians at brunians.org]\nSent: Thursday, April 2, 2009 11:05 AM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) \"Principlesofgovernaaance\"GeneWolfe's\n   Politics\n\nOK, reread it and read the other three.\n\n\n\n\n."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 3,
          "text": "I read The Prince a LONG time ago...\n\n~witz"
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 4,
          "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org [mailto:brunians at brunians.org]\nSent: Thursday, April 2, 2009 10:48 AM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) \"Principlesofgovernaaance\"Gene\nWolfe's Politics\n\nWitz: go read Plato's \"Republic\", Aristotle's\n\"Politics\" and Niccolo\nMachiavelli's two works \"Discourses On The First Ten\nBooks Of Titus\nLivius\" and \"The Prince\".\n\nThis will give you the vocabulary that you currently lack for\ndiscussing\nthis kind of thing.\n\n\n\n\n."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 5,
          "text": "refresher quote, questions below:\n\nSHADOW XXXII Five Legs:"
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\""
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 5,
          "text": "\"Severian. Name for me the seven principles of\ngovernance.\"\nIt was an effort for me to speak, but I managed (in my\ndream, if it\nwas\na\ndream)to say, \"I do not recall that we have studied\nsuch a thing,\nMaster.\"\n\"You were always the most careless of my boys,\""
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "he told me, and fell"
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 5,
          "text": "silent.\nA foreboding grew on me; I sensed that if I did not reply,\nsome\ntragedy\nwould\noccur. At last I began weakly, \"Anarchy . . .\"\n\"That is not governance, but the lack of it. I taught\nyou that it\nprecedes\nall governance. Now list the seven sorts.\"\n\"Attachment to the person of the monarch. Attachment\nto a bloodline\nor\nother\nsequence of succession. Attachment to the royal state."
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "Attachment to"
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 5,
          "text": "a\ncode\nlegitimizing the governing state. Attachment to the law\nonly.\nAttachment\nto a\ngreater or lesser board of electors, as framers of the\nlaw.\nAttachment\nto\nan\nabstraction conceived as including the body of electors,\nother bodies\ngiving\nrise to them, and numerous other elements, largely\nideal.\"\n\"Tolerable. Of these, which is the earliest form, and\nwhich the\nhighest?\"\n\"The development is in the order given, Master,\""
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "I said. \"But I do"
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 5,
          "text": "not\nrecall\nthat you ever asked before which was highest?'\nMaster Malrubius leaned forward, his eyes burning brighter\nthan the\ncoals\nof the\nfire. \"Which is highest, Severian?\"\n\"The last, Master?\"\n\"You mean attachment to an abstraction conceived as\nincluding the\nbody\nof\nelectors, other bodies giving rise to them, and numerous\nother\nelements,\nlargely ideal?\"\n\"Yes, Master.\"\n\"Of what kind, Severian, is your own attachment to\nthe Divine\nEntity?\"\nI said nothing. It may have been that I was thinking; but\nif so, my\nmind\nwas too much filled with sleep to be conscious of its\nthought.\nInstead,\nI\nbecame\nprofoundly aware of my physical surroundings. The sky\nabove my face\nin\nall\nits\ngrandeur seemed to have been made solely for my benefit,\nand to be\npresented for my inspection now. I lay upon the ground as\nupon a\nwoman,\nand the very air that surrounded me seemed a thing as\nadmirable as\ncrystal\nand as fluid as wine.\n\"Answer me, Severian.\"\n\"The first, if I have any.\"\n\"To the person of the monarch?\"\n\"Yes, because there is no succession.\"\n\"The animal that rests beside you now would die for\nyou. Of what kind\nis\nhis\nattachment to you?\"\n\"The first?\""
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\""
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 5,
          "text": "ok, is the last one meant to be a joke about our current\nsituation?\nAbstraction, largely ideal.\n\nmaybe some conservatives can help me out here.\n\"Attachment to the person of the monarch\"\n\nOn one hand, I don't understand how \"Attachment\nto\" is governance.\nAre\nthe people attached, or is the governance attached?\n\nAnother question this brings up for me.  This notion of a\nDivine\nRuler...\nYou get it in the Grail myths, and I suppose in the Jesus\nMyth, this\nidea\nof bringing back the Divine King. I'm not sure if\nthat's right, but\nit's\nsomething that seems to come up in various traditions. "
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "Anyway, While"
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 5,
          "text": "anyone could sort of get behind letting God's Vicar\nrule, if it could\nbe\nproven. Yet we've had plenty of crappy rulers claiming\nGod's mandate.\nanyway, How can this idea of a Monarch that is the best\nsystem jibe\nwith\nreality lacking an unambiguous 'seal of approval'"
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "from God?"
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 5,
          "text": "Let me rephrase?  This seems like a sort of religious\nright position\n(maybe I'm totally wrong)  So, would anyone toss away\ndemocracy in\nfavor\nof a monarch? How can this notion not be \"largely\nideal\"  when it\nhinges\nupon the character of a single person?\n\nI'm not sure if I'm making this clear. I'm\ntrying to understand how\nthis\ncan be considered the highest state of governance in a\npractical,\nnon-ideal world.\n\njust asking...\n\n~Witz\n\n\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net"
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 4,
          "text": "_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net"
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 3,
          "text": "_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net"
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 2,
          "text": "_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net"
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net"
        }
      ]
    },
    {
      "message_id": "<4586.67.142.130.34.1238701975.squirrel@brunians.org>",
      "from": {
        "name": "brunians at brunians.org",
        "address": "brunians at brunians.org"
      },
      "date": "2009-04-02T19:52:55+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) \"Principlesofgovernaaance\"GeneWolllfe's Politics",
      "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0904021212l604984c2t3fbf9544ffb7dc1f@mail.gmail.com>",
      "reply_link": "header",
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "And I am sincerely trying to help.\n\n\n\n."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "Is this called for?  Son of Witz asked a sincere question.\n\nOn Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 3:11 PM, <brunians at brunians.org> wrote:"
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 2,
          "text": "You'll thank me even more after you read them, and also embarrass\nyourself\nless when you choose to discuss these matters.\n\n\n\n\n\n."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 3,
          "text": "Thanks for your help there, Brunians. priceless."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 4,
          "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org [mailto:brunians at brunians.org]\nSent: Thursday, April 2, 2009 11:05 AM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) \"Principlesofgovernaaance\"GeneWolfe's    Politics\n\nOK, reread it and read the other three.\n\n\n\n\n."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 5,
          "text": "I read The Prince a LONG time ago...\n\n~witz"
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 6,
          "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org [mailto:brunians at brunians.org]\nSent: Thursday, April 2, 2009 10:48 AM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) \"Principlesofgovernaaance\"Gene Wolfe's Politics\n\nWitz: go read Plato's \"Republic\", Aristotle's \"Politics\" and Niccolo\nMachiavelli's two works \"Discourses On The First Ten Books Of Titus\nLivius\" and \"The Prince\".\n\nThis will give you the vocabulary that you currently lack for\ndiscussing\nthis kind of thing.\n\n\n\n\n."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 7,
          "text": "refresher quote, questions below:\n\nSHADOW XXXII Five Legs:\n\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\n\"Severian. Name for me the seven principles of governance.\"\nIt was an effort for me to speak, but I managed (in my dream, if\nit\nwas\na\ndream)to say, \"I do not recall that we have studied such a thing,\nMaster.\"\n\"You were always the most careless of my boys,\" he told me, and\nfell\nsilent.\nA foreboding grew on me; I sensed that if I did not reply, some\ntragedy\nwould\noccur. At last I began weakly, \"Anarchy . . .\"\n\"That is not governance, but the lack of it. I taught you that it\nprecedes\nall governance. Now list the seven sorts.\"\n\"Attachment to the person of the monarch. Attachment to a\nbloodline\nor\nother\nsequence of succession. Attachment to the royal state. Attachment\nto\na\ncode\nlegitimizing the governing state. Attachment to the law only.\nAttachment\nto a\ngreater or lesser board of electors, as framers of the law.\nAttachment\nto\nan\nabstraction conceived as including the body of electors, other\nbodies\ngiving\nrise to them, and numerous other elements, largely ideal.\"\n\"Tolerable. Of these, which is the earliest form, and which the\nhighest?\"\n\"The development is in the order given, Master,\" I said. \"But I do\nnot\nrecall\nthat you ever asked before which was highest?'\nMaster Malrubius leaned forward, his eyes burning brighter than\nthe\ncoals\nof the\nfire. \"Which is highest, Severian?\"\n\"The last, Master?\"\n\"You mean attachment to an abstraction conceived as including the\nbody\nof\nelectors, other bodies giving rise to them, and numerous other\nelements,\nlargely ideal?\"\n\"Yes, Master.\"\n\"Of what kind, Severian, is your own attachment to the Divine\nEntity?\"\nI said nothing. It may have been that I was thinking; but if so,\nmy\nmind\nwas too much filled with sleep to be conscious of its thought.\nInstead,\nI\nbecame\nprofoundly aware of my physical surroundings. The sky above my\nface\nin\nall\nits\ngrandeur seemed to have been made solely for my benefit, and to be\npresented for my inspection now. I lay upon the ground as upon a\nwoman,\nand the very air that surrounded me seemed a thing as admirable as\ncrystal\nand as fluid as wine.\n\"Answer me, Severian.\"\n\"The first, if I have any.\"\n\"To the person of the monarch?\"\n\"Yes, because there is no succession.\"\n\"The animal that rests beside you now would die for you. Of what\nkind\nis\nhis\nattachment to you?\"\n\"The first?\"\n\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\n\nok, is the last one meant to be a joke about our current\nsituation?\nAbstraction, largely ideal.\n\nmaybe some conservatives can help me out here.\n\"Attachment to the person of the monarch\"\n\nOn one hand, I don't understand how \"Attachment to\" is governance.\nAre\nthe people attached, or is the governance attached?\n\nAnother question this brings up for me.  This notion of a Divine\nRuler...\nYou get it in the Grail myths, and I suppose in the Jesus Myth,\nthis\nidea\nof bringing back the Divine King. I'm not sure if that's right,\nbut\nit's\nsomething that seems to come up in various traditions.  Anyway,\nWhile\nanyone could sort of get behind letting God's Vicar rule, if it\ncould\nbe\nproven. Yet we've had plenty of crappy rulers claiming God's\nmandate.\nanyway, How can this idea of a Monarch that is the best system\njibe\nwith\nreality lacking an unambiguous 'seal of approval' from God?\n\nLet me rephrase?  This seems like a sort of religious right\nposition\n(maybe I'm totally wrong)  So, would anyone toss away democracy in\nfavor\nof a monarch? How can this notion not be \"largely ideal\"  when it\nhinges\nupon the character of a single person?\n\nI'm not sure if I'm making this clear. I'm trying to understand\nhow\nthis\ncan be considered the highest state of governance in a practical,\nnon-ideal world.\n\njust asking...\n\n~Witz\n\n\n_______________________________________________"
        }
      ]
    },
    {
      "message_id": "<11454.67.142.130.34.1238702528.squirrel@brunians.org>",
      "from": {
        "name": "brunians at brunians.org",
        "address": "brunians at brunians.org"
      },
      "date": "2009-04-02T20:02:08+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) \"Principlesofgovernaaance\"GeneWolllfe's Politics",
      "in_reply_to": "<273409710904021217x6ddb3fdcrad05b23e54d01ae4@mail.gmail.com>",
      "reply_link": "header",
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "For someone who continually tries to intimate that they maintain a civil\nlevel of discourse on these matters, you nearly always come off as\nhorribly condescending, brunians, truly.  I say this not to be rude, but\nto point out something that is patently obvious to most on this board, I\nthink.  It's something to examine, I think."
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "Yeah, it's true.\n\nApparently it has something to do with my neurological architecture: I\nhave Asberger's syndrome or some other form of high functioning autism. It\ngets in the way sometimes, sometimes I think it is sort of cool.\n\nI am also plenty arrogant, make no mistake, and often have to remind\nmyself that I know almost nothing and am frequently wrong.\n\nWhat I don't do is call people names, threaten people, or posture hostile\nemotions at them - or if I do I acknowledge in advance that I am wrong to\ndo so, and if you point out a specific instance when I have done so I will\napologize. That's what I mean by maintaining a civil discourse, basically.\n\nSocrates and Henry Mencken are among my literary heros. What can I say?\n\nBut enough about me.\n\n\n\n\n."
        }
      ]
    },
    {
      "message_id": "<273409710904021307h2f726204ma7b3057a6019886a@mail.gmail.com>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Jordon Flato",
        "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com"
      },
      "date": "2009-04-02T20:07:02+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) \"Principlesofgovernaaance\"GeneWolllfe's Politics",
      "in_reply_to": "<11454.67.142.130.34.1238702528.squirrel@brunians.org>",
      "reply_link": "header",
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "It's the arrogance and condescension that I'm talking about, not threatening\nor anything.  It did seem to be something you aren't really intentionally\nthrowing out there.  Good to know you are self aware about it.\n\nI think telling someone they are embarrassing themselves by trying to engage\nin a discourse isn't civil, that's all."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 2,
          "text": "On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 1:02 PM, <brunians at brunians.org> wrote:\nFor someone who continually tries to intimate that they maintain a civil\nlevel of discourse on these matters, you nearly always come off as\nhorribly condescending, brunians, truly.  I say this not to be rude, but\nto point out something that is patently obvious to most on this board, I\nthink.  It's something to examine, I think."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "Yeah, it's true.\n\nApparently it has something to do with my neurological architecture: I\nhave Asberger's syndrome or some other form of high functioning autism. It\ngets in the way sometimes, sometimes I think it is sort of cool.\n\nI am also plenty arrogant, make no mistake, and often have to remind\nmyself that I know almost nothing and am frequently wrong.\n\nWhat I don't do is call people names, threaten people, or posture hostile\nemotions at them - or if I do I acknowledge in advance that I am wrong to\ndo so, and if you point out a specific instance when I have done so I will\napologize. That's what I mean by maintaining a civil discourse, basically.\n\nSocrates and Henry Mencken are among my literary heros. What can I say?\n\nBut enough about me.\n\n\n\n\n.\n\n\n_______________________________________________"
        }
      ]
    },
    {
      "message_id": "<10423.67.142.130.34.1238703251.squirrel@brunians.org>",
      "from": {
        "name": "brunians at brunians.org",
        "address": "brunians at brunians.org"
      },
      "date": "2009-04-02T20:14:11+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) \"Principlesofgovernaaance\"GeneWolllfe's Politics",
      "in_reply_to": "<273409710904021307h2f726204ma7b3057a6019886a@mail.gmail.com>",
      "reply_link": "header",
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "It's the arrogance and condescension that I'm talking about, not\nthreatening or anything.  It did seem to be something you aren't really\nintentionally throwing out there.  Good to know you are self aware about\nit."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "I think telling someone they are embarrassing themselves by trying to\nengage in a discourse isn't civil, that's all."
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "It's memorable. You've read Cellini's Autobiography?\n\n\nAll Cretans are liars.\n\n-- Epimenides the Cretan\n\n\n\n."
        }
      ]
    }
  ]
}