{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5394", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5394, "subject": "\"Principlesofgovernaaance\"GeneWW Wolllfe's Politics", "messages": 6, "voices": 4, "first": "2009-04-02T19:32:47+00:00", "last": "2009-04-02T21:02:02+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-04-02T19:32:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth)\"Principlesofgovernaaance\"GeneWW Wolllfe's Politics", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "it's true,\nBrunians basically told me: \"I'm intellectually superior to you so go read these books before I'll discuss anything with you\"\n\nYou know, if you want to show off, write something worthwhile.\nor if you don't think my post is worthy of a response, don't respond.\nOr did you just want to insult me.\n\nI certainly am not embarrassed. I don't see any reason to be. It's not like I put forth any position to argue against, just asked what Wolfe was trying to say in that section.\n\njust a cranky old fart I suppose.\n\n~Witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Jordon Flato [mailto:jordonflato at gmail.com]\nSent: Thursday, April 2, 2009 12:17 PM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) \"Principlesofgovernaaance\"GeneWolllfe's Politics\n\nFor someone who continually tries to intimate that they maintain a civil\nlevel of discourse on these matters, you nearly always come off as horribly\ncondescending, brunians, truly. I say this not to be rude, but to point out\nsomething that is patently obvious to most on this board, I think. It's\nsomething to examine, I think.\n\nOn Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 12:12 PM, John Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Is this called for? Son of Witz asked a sincere question.\n\n\nOn Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 3:11 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "You'll thank me even more after you read them, and also embarrass yourself\nless when you choose to discuss these matters.\n\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Thanks for your help there, Brunians. priceless." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org [mailto:brunians at brunians.org]\nSent: Thursday, April 2, 2009 11:05 AM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) \"Principlesofgovernaaance\"GeneWolfe's Politics\n\nOK, reread it and read the other three.\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "I read The Prince a LONG time ago...\n\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org [mailto:brunians at brunians.org]\nSent: Thursday, April 2, 2009 10:48 AM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) \"Principlesofgovernaaance\"Gene Wolfe's Politics\n\nWitz: go read Plato's \"Republic\", Aristotle's \"Politics\" and Niccolo\nMachiavelli's two works \"Discourses On The First Ten Books Of Titus\nLivius\" and \"The Prince\".\n\nThis will give you the vocabulary that you currently lack for\ndiscussing\nthis kind of thing.\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "refresher quote, questions below:\n\nSHADOW XXXII Five Legs:\n\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\n\"Severian. Name for me the seven principles of governance.\"\nIt was an effort for me to speak, but I managed (in my dream, if it\nwas\na\ndream)to say, \"I do not recall that we have studied such a thing,\nMaster.\"\n\"You were always the most careless of my boys,\" he told me, and fell\nsilent.\nA foreboding grew on me; I sensed that if I did not reply, some\ntragedy\nwould\noccur. At last I began weakly, \"Anarchy . . .\"\n\"That is not governance, but the lack of it. I taught you that it\nprecedes\nall governance. Now list the seven sorts.\"\n\"Attachment to the person of the monarch. Attachment to a bloodline\nor\nother\nsequence of succession. Attachment to the royal state. Attachment to\na\ncode\nlegitimizing the governing state. Attachment to the law only.\nAttachment\nto a\ngreater or lesser board of electors, as framers of the law.\nAttachment\nto\nan\nabstraction conceived as including the body of electors, other\nbodies\ngiving\nrise to them, and numerous other elements, largely ideal.\"\n\"Tolerable. Of these, which is the earliest form, and which the\nhighest?\"\n\"The development is in the order given, Master,\" I said. \"But I do\nnot\nrecall\nthat you ever asked before which was highest?'\nMaster Malrubius leaned forward, his eyes burning brighter than the\ncoals\nof the\nfire. \"Which is highest, Severian?\"\n\"The last, Master?\"\n\"You mean attachment to an abstraction conceived as including the\nbody\nof\nelectors, other bodies giving rise to them, and numerous other\nelements,\nlargely ideal?\"\n\"Yes, Master.\"\n\"Of what kind, Severian, is your own attachment to the Divine\nEntity?\"\nI said nothing. It may have been that I was thinking; but if so, my\nmind\nwas too much filled with sleep to be conscious of its thought.\nInstead,\nI\nbecame\nprofoundly aware of my physical surroundings. The sky above my face\nin\nall\nits\ngrandeur seemed to have been made solely for my benefit, and to be\npresented for my inspection now. I lay upon the ground as upon a\nwoman,\nand the very air that surrounded me seemed a thing as admirable as\ncrystal\nand as fluid as wine.\n\"Answer me, Severian.\"\n\"The first, if I have any.\"\n\"To the person of the monarch?\"\n\"Yes, because there is no succession.\"\n\"The animal that rests beside you now would die for you. Of what\nkind\nis\nhis\nattachment to you?\"\n\"The first?\"\n\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\n\nok, is the last one meant to be a joke about our current situation?\nAbstraction, largely ideal.\n\nmaybe some conservatives can help me out here.\n\"Attachment to the person of the monarch\"\n\nOn one hand, I don't understand how \"Attachment to\" is governance.\nAre\nthe people attached, or is the governance attached?\n\nAnother question this brings up for me. This notion of a Divine\nRuler...\nYou get it in the Grail myths, and I suppose in the Jesus Myth, this\nidea\nof bringing back the Divine King. I'm not sure if that's right, but\nit's\nsomething that seems to come up in various traditions. Anyway,\nWhile\nanyone could sort of get behind letting God's Vicar rule, if it\ncould\nbe\nproven. Yet we've had plenty of crappy rulers claiming God's\nmandate.\nanyway, How can this idea of a Monarch that is the best system jibe\nwith\nreality lacking an unambiguous 'seal of approval' from God?\n\nLet me rephrase? This seems like a sort of religious right position\n(maybe I'm totally wrong) So, would anyone toss away democracy in\nfavor\nof a monarch? How can this notion not be \"largely ideal\" when it\nhinges\nupon the character of a single person?\n\nI'm not sure if I'm making this clear. I'm trying to understand how\nthis\ncan be considered the highest state of governance in a practical,\nnon-ideal world.\n\njust asking...\n\n~Witz\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<14413.67.142.130.34.1238702878.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-04-02T20:07:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"Principlesofgovernaaance\"GeneWW Wolllfe's Politics", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "it's true,\nBrunians basically told me: \"I'm intellectually superior to you so go read\nthese books before I'll discuss anything with you\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I did not.\n\nI said 'I am familiar with the history of this subject, what has been said\nby various people, how ideas have shifted over the years, what various\nfolks have thought good and bad and why and you are not. I also don't have\ntime, right now, to educate you although under other circumstances I might\nbe quite happy to do so. So, really, the quickest way for us to have a\nworthwhile discussion about this is for you to do a day or two of intense\nreading (I doubt all four works together are more than a thousand pages),\nrather than me having to explain (for instance) that democracy,\nhistorically, has not been thought of as a good thing at all.\n\nIf I didn't consider you at least my intellectual equal, I wouldn't think\nthat you were up to the task. I try to treat everyone as if they are my\nintellectual equals, though at times, let me tell you, it is hard.\n\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-04-02T20:13:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"Principlesofgovernaaance\"GeneWW Wolllfe's Politics", "in_reply_to": "<14413.67.142.130.34.1238702878.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, give the other responses to your reply, it shouldn't be hard to see how my shorter restating is a reasonable interpretation.\n\nThat I'm not handy with all the jargon does not mean that I'm not familiar with many of the concepts. I'm familiar with the idea that democracy is incredibly problematic and I believe I've said so on this list.\n\nand regarding \"educating me\" Catch the whiff of condescension? pee-yew!\nI'm not asking you to educate me, I'm asking what people make of this section of the book. \n\nbut whatevs,\n\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org [mailto:brunians at brunians.org]\nSent: Thursday, April 2, 2009 01:07 PM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) \"Principlesofgovernaaance\"GeneWW Wolllfe's Politics" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "it's true,\nBrunians basically told me: \"I'm intellectually superior to you so go read\nthese books before I'll discuss anything with you\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I did not.\n\nI said 'I am familiar with the history of this subject, what has been said\nby various people, how ideas have shifted over the years, what various\nfolks have thought good and bad and why and you are not. I also don't have\ntime, right now, to educate you although under other circumstances I might\nbe quite happy to do so. So, really, the quickest way for us to have a\nworthwhile discussion about this is for you to do a day or two of intense\nreading (I doubt all four works together are more than a thousand pages),\nrather than me having to explain (for instance) that democracy,\nhistorically, has not been thought of as a good thing at all.\n\nIf I didn't consider you at least my intellectual equal, I wouldn't think\nthat you were up to the task. I try to treat everyone as if they are my\nintellectual equals, though at times, let me tell you, it is hard.\n\n\n\n\n\n.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<10025.67.142.130.34.1238703305.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-04-02T20:15:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"Principlesofgovernaaance\"GeneWW Wolllfe's Politics", "in_reply_to": "<14413.67.142.130.34.1238702878.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "it's true,\nBrunians basically told me: \"I'm intellectually superior to you so go\nread\nthese books before I'll discuss anything with you\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I did not.\n\nI said 'I am familiar with the history of this subject, what has been said\nby various people, how ideas have shifted over the years, what various\nfolks have thought good and bad and why and you are not. I also don't have\ntime, right now, to educate you although under other circumstances I might\nbe quite happy to do so. So, really, the quickest way for us to have a\nworthwhile discussion about this is for you to do a day or two of intense\nreading (I doubt all four works together are more than a thousand pages),\nrather than me having to explain (for instance) that democracy,\nhistorically, has not been thought of as a good thing at all." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "By the way, I left out a quote mark at the end of this paragraph....\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<8374B0A415C746788AFB02DBB2965E71@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-02T20:47:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"Principlesofgovernaaance\"GeneWW Wolllfe's Politics", "in_reply_to": "<10025.67.142.130.34.1238703305.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If you guys intend to get Brunians to acknowledge that he was out of line, \nthen you are wasting your time.\n\nRather than respond, what he should have done is what he is incapable of \ndoing: Admit to himself that he has nothing to add to the discussion that \nanyone else will find useful.\n\nBut the proper response to a Brunians answer of this sort is to do the same: \npretend you didn't see it. Just like a significant number of people are \ngoing to do with this post of mine.\n\nJ\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<273409710904021402m4b623fcdj2878e9ce686e7c9a@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-02T21:02:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"Principlesofgovernaaance\"GeneWW Wolllfe's Politics", "in_reply_to": "<8374B0A415C746788AFB02DBB2965E71@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I actually believe him and don't think he means anything by it. It seems to\nbe out of his control. So, for me, when I get rubbed the wrong way, I'll\njust ignore it and move on." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 1:47 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nIf you guys intend to get Brunians to acknowledge that he was out of line,\nthen you are wasting your time.\n\nRather than respond, what he should have done is what he is incapable of\ndoing: Admit to himself that he has nothing to add to the discussion that\nanyone else will find useful.\n\nBut the proper response to a Brunians answer of this sort is to do the\nsame: pretend you didn't see it. Just like a significant number of people\nare going to do with this post of mine.\n\n\nJ\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] } ] }