{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5395", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5395, "subject": "IROSF", "messages": 18, "voices": 8, "first": "2009-04-03T09:48:53+00:00", "last": "2009-04-04T16:33:49+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<63FB9AC7E0AEC7459DBCC99DC44247CA031FA0B4@BOSIDEXDB.Bankofscotland.ie>", "from": { "name": "O'Donnell, Tim BOSI", "address": "tim.o'donnell at bankofscotland.ie" }, "date": "2009-04-03T09:48:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) IROSF", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "With that in mind, anyone seen Michael Andre-Drussi's article on the IROSF today?\n\nhttp://www.irosf.com/q/zine/article/10536\n\nI quite enjoyed it. Although I do like his style of writing in general.\n\nThis passage made me laugh out loud:\n\"So Wolfe's mysteries are still open to further analysis and interpretation-just because I declare a \nmystery resolved in a certain way doesn't mean that it doesn't still have some life to it within \nthe larger critical community. Far from it! \nWe're all one big, happy family-which is to say, our numbers aren't very big, \nwe aren't particularly happy, and we're not at all related.)\"\n_____________________________________________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<39BE1392169B489591115578C1FB69E2@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-03T13:41:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) IROSF", "in_reply_to": "<63FB9AC7E0AEC7459DBCC99DC44247CA031FA0B4@BOSIDEXDB.Bankofscotland.ie>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "IROSFMichael also says something here that drives me bonkers:\n\n\"With the mysteries laid bare, it becomes apparent that enough clues were provided for such major mysteries to be solved in the original tetrology. That Severian would travel through time to become both the Conciliator and Apu Punchau, rather than being a reincarnation, avatar, or descendant. And that the world would drown with the coming of the New Sun.\"\n\nWell, yes, there are enough clues to have jumped to those conclusions. All the reader had to do was to accurately identify the jumping off points as such --while excluding the the non-jumping off points--- AND jump to the *correct* conclusion to the exclusion of the other potential conclusions.\n\nWhen Wolfe says all the answers are \"in the text\" it is like saying that \"Osama Bin Laden is 'right there' in Central Asia so why don't you go out and get him?\"\n\nStill, something that Wolfe's argument with Hartwell does make clear is that Wolfe had a very clear understanding of what was going on in his story, even the elements kept quite obscure. That's comforting, at least.\n\nI agree with Michael that The Urth of the New Sun *was* necessary. I also think a Simarillion of the New Sun would greatly increase the general enjoyment and popularity of the books. But I don't think that will happen. Wolfe has said \"the answers never last, but the mysteries never die\".\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "<39ed084f0904031046t5269e084hce0e58da6e9de5c5@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Groves", "address": "matthewalangroves at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-03T17:46:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) IROSF", "in_reply_to": "<39BE1392169B489591115578C1FB69E2@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 8:41 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nI agree with Michael that The Urth of the New Sun *was* necessary. I also\nthink a Simarillion of the New Sun would greatly increase the general\nenjoyment and popularity of the books." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I call this hypothetical and much-desired-by-me book The Clawmarillion." } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0904031102g2d2864f1l7316675bef587bec@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-03T18:02:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) IROSF", "in_reply_to": "<39ed084f0904031046t5269e084hce0e58da6e9de5c5@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Are we talking about a hypothetical backstory to the Red Sun Whorl (a\nClawmarillion), or a hypothetical collection of Gene Wolfe's ideas,\nthoughts, unused notions, etc. (a History of Briah) ?\n\nRegarding hypothetical books by Wolfe, I crave a fourth and concluding Latro\nbook above all else. Gene has two other projects scheduled, but I'm hopeful\nthat he'll do a fourth Latro after that. I think we're done with the Sun,\nso to speak." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 1:46 PM, Matthew Groves\nwrote:\nOn Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 8:41 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I agree with Michael that The Urth of the New Sun *was* necessary. I also\nthink a Simarillion of the New Sun would greatly increase the general\nenjoyment and popularity of the books." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I call this hypothetical and much-desired-by-me book The Clawmarillion.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2802.72.171.0.142.1238782278.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-04-03T18:11:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) IROSF", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0904031102g2d2864f1l7316675bef587bec@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But how would the Latro series conclude?\n\nHe's already been home and forgotten all about it.\n\nNow he's short his sword and (I misremember) does he actually remember his\nsword or has he forgotten it?\n\nI was hoping that Latro would get to India, where there are ancient\nstories about really advanced technology (like machine guns and rocket\nlaunchers, cloning, artificial wombs, several kinds of aircraft, nuclear\nweapons ...).\n\nI'll certainly read whatever Wolfe comes up with, of course.\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Are we talking about a hypothetical backstory to the Red Sun Whorl (a\nClawmarillion), or a hypothetical collection of Gene Wolfe's ideas,\nthoughts, unused notions, etc. (a History of Briah) ?\n\nRegarding hypothetical books by Wolfe, I crave a fourth and concluding\nLatro\nbook above all else. Gene has two other projects scheduled, but I'm\nhopeful\nthat he'll do a fourth Latro after that. I think we're done with the Sun,\nso to speak.\n\nOn Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 1:46 PM, Matthew Groves\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 8:41 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I agree with Michael that The Urth of the New Sun *was* necessary. I\nalso\nthink a Simarillion of the New Sun would greatly increase the general\nenjoyment and popularity of the books." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I call this hypothetical and much-desired-by-me book The Clawmarillion.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0904031114x3bbdc417ya851fbe90c529df6@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-03T18:14:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) IROSF", "in_reply_to": "<2802.72.171.0.142.1238782278.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 2:11 PM, wrote:\nBut how would the Latro series conclude?\n\nHe's already been home and forgotten all about it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Beats me. I got lost during Sidon. I think he needs miraculous\nintervention of some sort, but he's had countless opportunities for it and\ninstead been the pawn of basically every diety he encounters to one degree\nor another." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Now he's short his sword and (I misremember) does he actually remember his\nsword or has he forgotten it?\n\nI was hoping that Latro would get to India, where there are ancient\nstories about really advanced technology (like machine guns and rocket\nlaunchers, cloning, artificial wombs, several kinds of aircraft, nuclear\nweapons ...).\n\nI'll certainly read whatever Wolfe comes up with, of course.\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Are we talking about a hypothetical backstory to the Red Sun Whorl (a\nClawmarillion), or a hypothetical collection of Gene Wolfe's ideas,\nthoughts, unused notions, etc. (a History of Briah) ?\n\nRegarding hypothetical books by Wolfe, I crave a fourth and concluding\nLatro\nbook above all else. Gene has two other projects scheduled, but I'm\nhopeful\nthat he'll do a fourth Latro after that. I think we're done with the\nSun,\nso to speak.\n\nOn Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 1:46 PM, Matthew Groves\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 8:41 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I agree with Michael that The Urth of the New Sun *was* necessary. I\nalso\nthink a Simarillion of the New Sun would greatly increase the general\nenjoyment and popularity of the books." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I call this hypothetical and much-desired-by-me book The Clawmarillion.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<10292.72.171.0.142.1238783219.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-04-03T18:26:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) IROSF", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0904031114x3bbdc417ya851fbe90c529df6@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Palestine is not far from Egypt (and it is real, real close to Sidon).\nPalestine under Persian rule is more peaceful than it has been before or\nsince. The second Temple is an operating reality. Do you think he might\nfind a more benevolent God in Jerusalem?\n\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 2:11 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But how would the Latro series conclude?\n\nHe's already been home and forgotten all about it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Beats me. I got lost during Sidon. I think he needs miraculous\nintervention of some sort, but he's had countless opportunities for it and\ninstead been the pawn of basically every diety he encounters to one degree\nor another." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Now he's short his sword and (I misremember) does he actually remember\nhis\nsword or has he forgotten it?\n\nI was hoping that Latro would get to India, where there are ancient\nstories about really advanced technology (like machine guns and rocket\nlaunchers, cloning, artificial wombs, several kinds of aircraft, nuclear\nweapons ...).\n\nI'll certainly read whatever Wolfe comes up with, of course.\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Are we talking about a hypothetical backstory to the Red Sun Whorl (a\nClawmarillion), or a hypothetical collection of Gene Wolfe's ideas,\nthoughts, unused notions, etc. (a History of Briah) ?\n\nRegarding hypothetical books by Wolfe, I crave a fourth and concluding\nLatro\nbook above all else. Gene has two other projects scheduled, but I'm\nhopeful\nthat he'll do a fourth Latro after that. I think we're done with the\nSun,\nso to speak.\n\nOn Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 1:46 PM, Matthew Groves\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 8:41 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I agree with Michael that The Urth of the New Sun *was* necessary." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I\nalso\nthink a Simarillion of the New Sun would greatly increase the\ngeneral\nenjoyment and popularity of the books." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I call this hypothetical and much-desired-by-me book The\nClawmarillion.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0904031138m7062f258h5cebaa469fcf3da@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-03T18:38:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) IROSF", "in_reply_to": "<10292.72.171.0.142.1238783219.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gene seems to me to be too coy to do that outright. I imagine the One True\nGod would act through an intermediary of some sort. The members of this\nlist could probably come up with six or seven plausible answers for the time\nperiod without much trouble." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 2:26 PM, wrote:\nPalestine is not far from Egypt (and it is real, real close to Sidon).\nPalestine under Persian rule is more peaceful than it has been before or\nsince. The second Temple is an operating reality. Do you think he might\nfind a more benevolent God in Jerusalem?\n\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 2:11 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "But how would the Latro series conclude?\n\nHe's already been home and forgotten all about it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Beats me. I got lost during Sidon. I think he needs miraculous\nintervention of some sort, but he's had countless opportunities for it\nand\ninstead been the pawn of basically every diety he encounters to one\ndegree\nor another." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Now he's short his sword and (I misremember) does he actually remember\nhis\nsword or has he forgotten it?\n\nI was hoping that Latro would get to India, where there are ancient\nstories about really advanced technology (like machine guns and rocket\nlaunchers, cloning, artificial wombs, several kinds of aircraft, nuclear\nweapons ...).\n\nI'll certainly read whatever Wolfe comes up with, of course.\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Are we talking about a hypothetical backstory to the Red Sun Whorl (a\nClawmarillion), or a hypothetical collection of Gene Wolfe's ideas,\nthoughts, unused notions, etc. (a History of Briah) ?\n\nRegarding hypothetical books by Wolfe, I crave a fourth and concluding\nLatro\nbook above all else. Gene has two other projects scheduled, but I'm\nhopeful\nthat he'll do a fourth Latro after that. I think we're done with the\nSun,\nso to speak.\n\nOn Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 1:46 PM, Matthew Groves\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 8:41 AM, James Wynn \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "I agree with Michael that The Urth of the New Sun *was* necessary." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I\nalso\nthink a Simarillion of the New Sun would greatly increase the\ngeneral\nenjoyment and popularity of the books." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I call this hypothetical and much-desired-by-me book The\nClawmarillion.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8521.72.171.0.142.1238786251.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-04-03T19:17:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) IROSF", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0904031138m7062f258h5cebaa469fcf3da@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's an interesting period in Jewish history: when people talked about the\nMessiah, at that time, they usually meant Cyrus the Great.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gene seems to me to be too coy to do that outright. I imagine the One\nTrue God would act through an intermediary of some sort. The members of\nthis list could probably come up with six or seven plausible answers for\nthe time period without much trouble.\n\nOn Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 2:26 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Palestine is not far from Egypt (and it is real, real close to Sidon).\nPalestine under Persian rule is more peaceful than it has been before or\nsince. The second Temple is an operating reality. Do you think he might\nfind a more benevolent God in Jerusalem?\n\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 2:11 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "But how would the Latro series conclude?\n\nHe's already been home and forgotten all about it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Beats me. I got lost during Sidon. I think he needs miraculous\nintervention of some sort, but he's had countless opportunities for it\nand\ninstead been the pawn of basically every diety he encounters to one\ndegree\nor another." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Now he's short his sword and (I misremember) does he actually\nremember\nhis\nsword or has he forgotten it?\n\nI was hoping that Latro would get to India, where there are ancient\nstories about really advanced technology (like machine guns and\nrocket\nlaunchers, cloning, artificial wombs, several kinds of aircraft,\nnuclear\nweapons ...).\n\nI'll certainly read whatever Wolfe comes up with, of course.\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Are we talking about a hypothetical backstory to the Red Sun Whorl\n(a\nClawmarillion), or a hypothetical collection of Gene Wolfe's ideas,\nthoughts, unused notions, etc. (a History of Briah) ?\n\nRegarding hypothetical books by Wolfe, I crave a fourth and\nconcluding\nLatro\nbook above all else. Gene has two other projects scheduled, but\nI'm\nhopeful\nthat he'll do a fourth Latro after that. I think we're done with\nthe\nSun,\nso to speak.\n\nOn Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 1:46 PM, Matthew Groves\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 8:41 AM, James Wynn \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "I agree with Michael that The Urth of the New Sun *was*\nnecessary." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I\nalso\nthink a Simarillion of the New Sun would greatly increase the\ngeneral\nenjoyment and popularity of the books." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "I call this hypothetical and much-desired-by-me book The\nClawmarillion.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-03T20:08:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) IROSF", "in_reply_to": "<8521.72.171.0.142.1238786251.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If there is ever to be a \"Clawmarillion\" wouldn't it have to\nfollow the path of The Silmarillion? Meaning it would be published\nposthumously and completed by Gene Wolfe's son, Roy (C. Lackey, ;- ))\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "JBarach at aol.com", "address": "jbarach at aol.com" }, "date": "2009-04-03T20:14:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) IROSF", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nIn a message dated 4/3/2009 11:11:33 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, \nbrunians at brunians.org writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But how would the Latro series conclude?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "_http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze2tmhh/wolfejbj.html#sold_ \n(http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze2tmhh/wolfejbj.html#sold) \n \nWolfe's original idea was to get Latro to the Semitic world (and I assume \nthat's been satisfied in Soldier of Sidon) and ultimately to the New World.\n \nJohn\n**************Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a \nrecession. \n(http://jobs.aol.com/gallery/growing-job-industries?ncid=emlcntuscare00000003)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4361.72.171.0.148.1238792572.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-04-03T21:02:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) IROSF", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That would be how you'd get to the New World, back then, for sure.\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In a message dated 4/3/2009 11:11:33 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,\nbrunians at brunians.org writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But how would the Latro series conclude?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze2tmhh/wolfejbj.html#sold_\n(http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze2tmhh/wolfejbj.html#sold)\n\nWolfe's original idea was to get Latro to the Semitic world (and I assume\nthat's been satisfied in Soldier of Sidon) and ultimately to the New\nWorld.\n\nJohn\n**************Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a\nrecession.\n(http://jobs.aol.com/gallery/growing-job-industries?ncid=emlcntuscare00000003)\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20090403212340.C7F7348008@diego.dreamhost.com>", "from": { "name": "Mo Holkar / UKG", "address": "lists at ukg.co.uk" }, "date": "2009-04-03T21:23:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) IROSF", "in_reply_to": "<8521.72.171.0.142.1238786251.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 20:17 03/04/2009, you wrote:\nIt's an interesting period in Jewish history: when people talked \nabout the Messiah, at that time, they usually meant Cyrus the Great." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think that had to some extent worn off by the time of the setting \nof the Soldier books, upwards of 50 years after Cyrus's death.\n\nMo\n\n\n# ~ # ~ #\n\nWolfeWiki now at:\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/ " } ] }, { "message_id": "<3048.72.171.0.148.1238794825.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-04-03T21:40:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) IROSF", "in_reply_to": "<20090403212340.C7F7348008@diego.dreamhost.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 20:17 03/04/2009, you wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's an interesting period in Jewish history: when people talked\nabout the Messiah, at that time, they usually meant Cyrus the Great." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think that had to some extent worn off by the time of the setting\nof the Soldier books, upwards of 50 years after Cyrus's death." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why do you say that? The books of Ezra and Nehemiah were recently\npublished and widely read.\n\nWhat did people mean, then, when they said 'moshiach', anyway?\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<20090404104116.688C348008@diego.dreamhost.com>", "from": { "name": "Mo Holkar / UKG", "address": "lists at ukg.co.uk" }, "date": "2009-04-04T10:41:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) IROSF", "in_reply_to": "<3048.72.171.0.148.1238794825.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "At 22:40 03/04/2009, brunians wrote:\nAt 20:17 03/04/2009, you wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It's an interesting period in Jewish history: when people talked\nabout the Messiah, at that time, they usually meant Cyrus the Great." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think that had to some extent worn off by the time of the setting\nof the Soldier books, upwards of 50 years after Cyrus's death." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why do you say that? The books of Ezra and Nehemiah were recently\npublished and widely read." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure, and those books talk about Darius and Artaxerxes in the same \nenthusiastic terms as they do about Cyrus. Clearly Cyrus was still \nregarded as an anointed arm of the Lord, but not as \"The\" Messiah in \nthe Book of Isaiah sense. Which is what I thought you were referring \nto -- apologies if not." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What did people mean, then, when they said 'moshiach', anyway?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "An interesting question, which we can only explore by rather \nimperfect means. Presumably, though, it's safe to say that different \npeople may have meant different things by it.\n\nbest,\n\nMo\n\n\n# ~ # ~ #\n\nWolfeWiki now at:\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/ " } ] }, { "message_id": "<13132.67.142.130.20.1238843100.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-04-04T11:05:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) IROSF", "in_reply_to": "<20090404104116.688C348008@diego.dreamhost.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 22:40 03/04/2009, brunians wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "At 20:17 03/04/2009, you wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "It's an interesting period in Jewish history: when people talked\nabout the Messiah, at that time, they usually meant Cyrus the Great." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I think that had to some extent worn off by the time of the setting\nof the Soldier books, upwards of 50 years after Cyrus's death." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why do you say that? The books of Ezra and Nehemiah were recently\npublished and widely read." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sure, and those books talk about Darius and Artaxerxes in the same\nenthusiastic terms as they do about Cyrus." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I believe but am not sure that Messiah became one of the regular titles of\nthe Persian Great King, and was read out in the familiar litany, \"King,\nGreat King, King of Kings, King of Persia, King of Media, King of the Two\nLands, King of Babylon, Messiah ....\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Clearly Cyrus was still\nregarded as an anointed arm of the Lord, but not as \"The\" Messiah in\nthe Book of Isaiah sense." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Are we talking a Christian or a Jewish interpretation of the Book of\nIsaiah? They are significantly different, you know." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Which is what I thought you were referring\nto -- apologies if not." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "See directly above...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What did people mean, then, when they said 'moshiach', anyway?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "An interesting question, which we can only explore by rather\nimperfect means. Presumably, though, it's safe to say that different\npeople may have meant different things by it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Significantly, there is the Christian idea of the Messiah being God\nIncarnate, which idea is anathema to the Jews, and the Jewish conception,\nwhich is much more that of a national redeemer, someone who restores the\nnation - sort of like Cyrus did.\n\nThis is an oversimplification, but since this is one of the main\ndifferences between the two faiths it cannot, I think, be overemphasized.\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<20090404150953.8037348008@diego.dreamhost.com>", "from": { "name": "Mo Holkar / UKG", "address": "lists at ukg.co.uk" }, "date": "2009-04-04T15:10:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) IROSF", "in_reply_to": "<13132.67.142.130.20.1238843100.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "At 12:05 04/04/2009, brunians wrote:\n Clearly Cyrus was still\nregarded as an anointed arm of the Lord, but not as \"The\" Messiah in\nthe Book of Isaiah sense." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Are we talking a Christian or a Jewish interpretation of the Book of\nIsaiah? They are significantly different, you know." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've been ignoring the Christian interpretation, as irrelevant to the \nhistorical period under consideration. Although of course it may be \nrelevant to the books, as this is Wolfe we're talking about. Perhaps \nsomeone who knows more than me about it can comment." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "What did people mean, then, when they said 'moshiach', anyway?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "An interesting question, which we can only explore by rather\nimperfect means. Presumably, though, it's safe to say that different\npeople may have meant different things by it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Significantly, there is the Christian idea of the Messiah being God\nIncarnate, which idea is anathema to the Jews, and the Jewish conception,\nwhich is much more that of a national redeemer, someone who restores the\nnation - sort of like Cyrus did." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Absolutely. But within Judaism itself there seem to have been variant \nMessiah understandings -- for example, the stipulation in Isaiah 11 \nthat the awaited Messiah would be Jewish and of the line of David, \nirreconcilable with the acclamation of Cyrus as Messiah in Isaiah 45. \nIt is a complex issue, particularly when we don't know exactly when \nthe relevant texts were written, or (as in the case of Isaiah) \nsuspect they were cobbled together from several authors over a lengthy period.\n\nMy point really was, though, that while many Jews of the Soldier \nsetting would have been looking back to Cyrus as the good old Messiah \nthat was, we can expect that plenty of others would have been looking \nforward to the next one.\n\nbest wishes,\n\nMo\n\n\n# ~ # ~ #\n\nWolfeWiki now at:\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/ " } ] }, { "message_id": "<11540.67.142.130.44.1238862829.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-04-04T16:33:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) IROSF", "in_reply_to": "<20090404150953.8037348008@diego.dreamhost.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Significantly, there is the Christian idea of the Messiah being God\nIncarnate, which idea is anathema to the Jews, and the Jewish conception,\nwhich is much more that of a national redeemer, someone who restores the\nnation - sort of like Cyrus did." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Absolutely. But within Judaism itself there seem to have been variant\nMessiah understandings -- for example, the stipulation in Isaiah 11\nthat the awaited Messiah would be Jewish and of the line of David,\nirreconcilable with the acclamation of Cyrus as Messiah in Isaiah 45.\nIt is a complex issue, particularly when we don't know exactly when\nthe relevant texts were written, or (as in the case of Isaiah)\nsuspect they were cobbled together from several authors over a lengthy\nperiod." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My point really was, though, that while many Jews of the Soldier\nsetting would have been looking back to Cyrus as the good old Messiah\nthat was, we can expect that plenty of others would have been looking\nforward to the next one." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's pretty reasonable on the face of it and I am unaware of any\nevidence against it.\n\n\n\n\n." } ] } ] }