Subject: (urth) IROSF

From: O'Donnell, Tim BOSI <tim.o'donnell at bankofscotland.ie>
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 09:48:53 +0000

With that in mind, anyone seen Michael Andre-Drussi's article on the IROSF today?

http://www.irosf.com/q/zine/article/10536

I quite enjoyed it.  Although I do like his style of writing in general.

This passage made me laugh out loud:
"So Wolfe's mysteries are still open to further analysis and interpretation-just because I declare a 
mystery resolved in a certain way doesn't mean that it doesn't still have some life to it within 
the larger critical community. Far from it! 
We're all one big, happy family-which is to say, our numbers aren't very big, 
we aren't particularly happy, and we're not at all related.)"
_____________________________________________________________________________
_____________________________________________________________________________

From: Jordon Flato <jordonflato at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: (urth) "Principlesofgovernaaance"GeneWW Wolllfe's
	Politics
To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
Message-ID:
	<273409710904021402m4b623fcdj2878e9ce686e7c9a at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

I actually believe him and don't think he means anything by it.  It seems to
be out of his control.  So, for me, when I get rubbed the wrong way, I'll
just ignore it and move on.
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From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 13:41:45 +0000

IROSFMichael also says something here that drives me bonkers:

"With the mysteries laid bare, it becomes apparent that enough clues were provided for such major mysteries to be solved in the original tetrology. That Severian would travel through time to become both the Conciliator and Apu Punchau, rather than being a reincarnation, avatar, or descendant. And that the world would drown with the coming of the New Sun."

Well, yes, there are enough clues to have jumped to those conclusions. All the reader had to do was to accurately identify the jumping off points as such --while excluding the the non-jumping off points--- AND jump to the *correct* conclusion to the exclusion of the other potential conclusions.

When Wolfe says all the answers are "in the text" it is like saying that "Osama Bin Laden is 'right there' in Central Asia so why don't you go out and get him?"

Still, something that Wolfe's argument with Hartwell does make clear is that Wolfe had a very clear understanding of what was going on in his story, even the elements kept quite obscure. That's comforting, at least.

I agree with Michael that The Urth of the New Sun *was* necessary. I also think a Simarillion of the New Sun would greatly increase the general enjoyment and popularity of the books. But I don't think that will happen. Wolfe has said "the answers never last, but the mysteries never die".

J.
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From: Matthew Groves <matthewalangroves at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 17:46:49 +0000

On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 8:41 AM, James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com> wrote:
> I agree with Michael that The Urth of the New Sun *was* necessary. I also
> think a Simarillion of the New Sun would greatly increase the general
> enjoyment and popularity of the books.

I call this hypothetical and much-desired-by-me book The Clawmarillion.

---

From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 18:02:42 +0000

Are we talking about a hypothetical backstory to the Red Sun Whorl (a
Clawmarillion), or a hypothetical collection of Gene Wolfe's ideas,
thoughts, unused notions, etc. (a History of Briah) ?

Regarding hypothetical books by Wolfe, I crave a fourth and concluding Latro
book above all else.  Gene has two other projects scheduled, but I'm hopeful
that he'll do a fourth Latro after that.  I think we're done with the Sun,
so to speak.

On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 1:46 PM, Matthew Groves
<matthewalangroves at gmail.com>wrote:

> _______________________________________________
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From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 18:11:18 +0000

But how would the Latro series conclude?

He's already been home and forgotten all about it.

Now he's short his sword and (I misremember) does he actually remember his
sword or has he forgotten it?

I was hoping that Latro would get to India, where there are ancient
stories about really advanced technology (like machine guns and rocket
launchers, cloning, artificial wombs, several kinds of aircraft, nuclear
weapons ...).

I'll certainly read whatever Wolfe comes up with, of course.

.

---

From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 18:14:28 +0000

> He's already been home and forgotten all about it.

Beats me.  I got lost during Sidon.  I think he needs miraculous
intervention of some sort, but he's had countless opportunities for it and
instead been the pawn of basically every diety he encounters to one degree
or another.

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From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 18:26:59 +0000

Palestine is not far from Egypt (and it is real, real close to Sidon).
Palestine under Persian rule is more peaceful than it has been before or
since. The second Temple is an operating reality. Do you think he might
find a more benevolent God in Jerusalem?

.

>> >> > I agree with Michael that The Urth of the New Sun *was* necessary.
>> I
>> >> also

---

From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 18:38:47 +0000

Gene seems to me to be too coy to do that outright.  I imagine the One True
God would act through an intermediary of some sort.  The members of this
list could probably come up with six or seven plausible answers for the time
period without much trouble.

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From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 19:17:31 +0000

It's an interesting period in Jewish history: when people talked about the
Messiah, at that time, they usually meant Cyrus the Great.

.

> Gene seems to me to be too coy to do that outright.  I imagine the One
> True God would act through an intermediary of some sort.  The members of
> this list could probably come up with six or seven plausible answers for
> the time period without much trouble.
>
>> >> Now he's short his sword and (I misremember) does he actually
>> remember
>> >> his
>> >> > Regarding hypothetical books by Wolfe, I crave a fourth and
>> concluding
>> >> > Latro
>> >> > book above all else.  Gene has two other projects scheduled, but
>> I'm
>> >> > hopeful
>> >> > that he'll do a fourth Latro after that.  I think we're done with
>> the
>> >> Sun,
>> >> > so to speak.
>> >> >

---

From: b sharp <bsharporflat at hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 20:08:37 +0000

If there is ever to be a "Clawmarillion" wouldn't it have to
follow the path of The Silmarillion? Meaning it would be published
posthumously and completed by Gene Wolfe's son, Roy (C. Lackey, ;- ))

-bsharp
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From: JBarach at aol.com <jbarach at aol.com>
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 20:14:46 +0000

In a message dated 4/3/2009 11:11:33 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  

> But  how would the Latro series conclude?

_http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze2tmhh/wolfejbj.html#sold_ 
(http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze2tmhh/wolfejbj.html#sold) 
 
Wolfe's original idea was to get Latro to the Semitic world (and I assume  
that's been satisfied in Soldier of Sidon) and ultimately to the New  World.
 
John
**************Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a 
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From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 21:02:52 +0000

That would be how you'd get to the New World, back then, for sure.

.

---

From: Mo Holkar / UKG <lists at ukg.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 21:23:51 +0000

At 20:17 03/04/2009, you wrote:
>It's an interesting period in Jewish history: when people talked 
>about the Messiah, at that time, they usually meant Cyrus the Great.

I think that had to some extent worn off by the time of the setting 
of the Soldier books, upwards of 50 years after Cyrus's death.

Mo

# ~ # ~ #

WolfeWiki now at:
http://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 21:40:25 +0000

> of the Soldier books, upwards of 50 years after Cyrus's death.

Why do you say that? The books of Ezra and Nehemiah were recently
published and widely read.

What did people mean, then, when they said 'moshiach', anyway?

.

---

From: Mo Holkar / UKG <lists at ukg.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 04 Apr 2009 10:41:27 +0000

>published and widely read.

Sure, and those books talk about Darius and Artaxerxes in the same 
enthusiastic terms as they do about Cyrus. Clearly Cyrus was still 
regarded as an anointed arm of the Lord, but not as "The" Messiah in 
the Book of Isaiah sense. Which is what I thought you were referring 
to -- apologies if not.

>What did people mean, then, when they said 'moshiach', anyway?

An interesting question, which we can only explore by rather 
imperfect means. Presumably, though, it's safe to say that different 
people may have meant different things by it.

best,

Mo

# ~ # ~ #

WolfeWiki now at:

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Sat, 04 Apr 2009 11:05:00 +0000

> enthusiastic terms as they do about Cyrus.

I believe but am not sure that Messiah became one of the regular titles of
the Persian Great King, and was read out in the familiar litany, "King,
Great King, King of Kings, King of Persia, King of Media, King of the Two
Lands, King of Babylon, Messiah ...."

>                                              Clearly Cyrus was still
> the Book of Isaiah sense.

Are we talking a Christian or a Jewish interpretation of the Book of
Isaiah? They are significantly different, you know.

>                           Which is what I thought you were referring
> to -- apologies if not.

See directly above....

> people may have meant different things by it.

Significantly, there is the Christian idea of the Messiah being God
Incarnate, which idea is anathema to the Jews, and the Jewish conception,
which is much more that of a national redeemer, someone who restores the
nation - sort of like Cyrus did.

This is an oversimplification, but since this is one of the main
differences between the two faiths it cannot, I think, be overemphasized.

.

---

From: Mo Holkar / UKG <lists at ukg.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 04 Apr 2009 15:10:04 +0000

>Isaiah? They are significantly different, you know.

I've been ignoring the Christian interpretation, as irrelevant to the 
historical period under consideration. Although of course it may be 
relevant to the books, as this is Wolfe we're talking about. Perhaps 
someone who knows more than me about it can comment.

>nation - sort of like Cyrus did.

Absolutely. But within Judaism itself there seem to have been variant 
Messiah understandings -- for example, the stipulation in Isaiah 11 
that the awaited Messiah would be Jewish and of the line of David, 
irreconcilable with the acclamation of Cyrus as Messiah in Isaiah 45. 
It is a complex issue, particularly when we don't know exactly when 
the relevant texts were written, or (as in the case of Isaiah) 
suspect they were cobbled together from several authors over a lengthy period.

My point really was, though, that while many Jews of the Soldier 
setting would have been looking back to Cyrus as the good old Messiah 
that was, we can expect that plenty of others would have been looking 
forward to the next one.

best wishes,

Mo

# ~ # ~ #

WolfeWiki now at:

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Sat, 04 Apr 2009 16:33:49 +0000

> that was, we can expect that plenty of others would have been looking

That's pretty reasonable on the face of it and I am unaware of any
evidence against it.

.