{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5402", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5402, "subject": "Gnosticism in BotNS", "messages": 13, "voices": 7, "first": "2009-04-08T18:24:15+00:00", "last": "2009-04-09T20:04:58+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<49DCEBCF.8040601@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-04-08T18:24:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gnosticism in BotNS", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The topic of gnosticism has come up before, but I couldn't recall some \nof the other clues to its conscious presence as an underpinning to \nBotNS. I stumbled on it in looking into the tribade matter.\n\nClaw, chapter 10, Vodalus:\n\n\" ... No, we are not diminished in wisdom. We are diminished in power. \nStudy has advanced without letup, but even as men have learned all that \nis needful for\n\nmastery, the strength of the world has been exhausted. We exist now, and \nprecariously, upon the ruin of those who preceded us. While some skim \nthe air in\n\ntheir fliers, ten thousand leagues in a day, we others creep upon the \nskin of Urth, unable to go from one horizon to the next before the \nwesternmost has\n\nlifted itself to veil the sun. You spoke a moment ago of checkmating \nthat mewling fool the Autarch. I want you to conceive now of two \nautarchs two great\n\npowers striving for mastery. The white seeks to maintain things as they \nare, the black to set Man's foot on the road to domination again. I \ncalled it the black\n\nby chance, but *it would be well to remember that it is by night that we \nsee the stars strongly; they are remote and all but invisible in the red \nlight of day*.\n\nNow, of those two powers, which would you serve?\"\n\n\nThis is classic gnostic imagery. Since gnosticism posits a false local \nCreator and a true universal Creator, Vodalus seems to align himself \nwith true knowledge. However. his knowledge is probably to be regarded \nas false, if not Satanic, even though the true god is more like the \nhidden one than like the light-of-day one. We could probably usefully \ncompare the libertines' anticipation of sexual experience through the \nalzabo with Severian's mastery of self through the alzabo. Severian \nsupplants and supercedes both autarchs by conciliating between their \ndesires for Man.\n\nRemember the inscription in the mausoleum: Look, and See. God must be \nsought, not received. The Conciliator also is associated with gnostic \nimagery (the Black Sun). Silk, in promoting the Outsider, plays a \nsimilar role. So Wolfe basically uses gnostic imagery, I think, to \ncreate a tension between failed approaches to the Increate that is \nresolved by the \"proper\" approach. Something like that." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-04-08T18:40:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gnosticism in BotNS", "in_reply_to": "<49DCEBCF.8040601@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is classic gnostic imagery. Since gnosticism posits a false local \nCreator and a true universal Creator, Vodalus seems to align himself \nwith true knowledge. However. his knowledge is probably to be regarded \nas false, if not Satanic, even though the true god is more like the \nhidden one than like the light-of-day one. We could probably usefully \ncompare the libertines' anticipation of sexual experience through the \nalzabo with Severian's mastery of self through the alzabo. Severian \nsupplants and supercedes both autarchs by conciliating between their \ndesires for Man.\n\nRemember the inscription in the mausoleum: Look, and See. God must be \nsought, not received. The Conciliator also is associated with gnostic \nimagery (the Black Sun). Silk, in promoting the Outsider, plays a \nsimilar role. So Wolfe basically uses gnostic imagery, I think, to \ncreate a tension between failed approaches to the Increate that is \nresolved by the \"proper\" approach. Something like that." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is the main thing I get out of the Gnostic theology I've looked into. It strikes me that people critiquing it as mere \"duality\" is a bit off base. I think, at a really simple level, it's saying \"Align yourself to the true God, and not this False Creator and his limited creation.\" Which definitely jibes with the way Wolfe uses this imagery. Of course, The Long Sun is a perfect metaphor of this idea. A false God and his little dominion.\n\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49DD22DC.9090702@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-04-08T22:19:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gnosticism in BotNS", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gnosticism was influenced by Zoroastrianism, which is Manichaean, so it's certainly dualistic. But to Wolfe, one way is not better than the other, or any other way. All paths are potential paths to leaving the false and finding the good and true. \nSeverian's interest in Vodalism certainly makes him a Seeker for Truth, even if Vodalus himself is false.\n\nThe gnostic \"option,\" _I_ think, is simply a powerful way of suggesting that goal directly. That's why I like the sun/stars imagery---we think we see more in the day, but of course we don't see very far. The stars are there---if you look.\n\nEvery hero and every human being has to discover for him or herself what is true and what it false, and frequently what seems true is false, and the reverse. So the main point is just that you look---look beyond what is obvious, consider that there may be data you are not factoring into your analysis. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 18:40:48 +0000\nFrom: \"Son of Witz\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Gnosticism in BotNS\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"utf-8\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This is classic gnostic imagery. Since gnosticism posits a false local \nCreator and a true universal Creator, Vodalus seems to align himself \nwith true knowledge. However. his knowledge is probably to be regarded \nas false, if not Satanic, even though the true god is more like the \nhidden one than like the light-of-day one. We could probably usefully \ncompare the libertines' anticipation of sexual experience through the \nalzabo with Severian's mastery of self through the alzabo. Severian \nsupplants and supercedes both autarchs by conciliating between their \ndesires for Man.\n\nRemember the inscription in the mausoleum: Look, and See. God must be \nsought, not received. The Conciliator also is associated with gnostic \nimagery (the Black Sun). Silk, in promoting the Outsider, plays a \nsimilar role. So Wolfe basically uses gnostic imagery, I think, to \ncreate a tension between failed approaches to the Increate that is \nresolved by the \"proper\" approach. Something like that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n\n\n\nThis is the main thing I get out of the Gnostic theology I've looked into. It strikes me that people critiquing it as mere \"duality\" is a bit off base. I think, at a really simple level, it's saying \"Align yourself to the true God, and not this False Creator and his limited creation.\" Which definitely jibes with the way Wolfe uses this imagery. Of course, The Long Sun is a perfect metaphor of this idea. A false God and his little dominion.\n\n~witz\n\n\n\n\n------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<10678.67.142.130.16.1239232090.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-04-08T23:08:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gnosticism in BotNS", "in_reply_to": "<49DD22DC.9090702@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gnosticism was influenced by Zoroastrianism, which is Manichaean, so it's\ncertainly dualistic." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is a popular idea, but not a true one:\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism\n\nZoroastrianism is, in fact, the oldest of what are called the monotheistic\nreligions.\n\nWolfe is aware of this. Latro is a sworn follower of the Great King who is\n(not coincidentally) a follower of the One True God.\n\nThis, of course, has nothing to do at all with the discussion of\ngnosticism in the BotNS.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<272706220904082001s16053017ub81f298085d2a082@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-09T03:01:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gnosticism in BotNS", "in_reply_to": "<49DD22DC.9090702@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Backwards. Manichaeanism was influenced by Zoroastrianism, because it\nwas a Persian form of gnosticism.\n\nGnosticism actually applies to lots of syncretic religious beliefs\nthat flourished around the Levant and Fertile Crescent areas. There\nare several different strains, such as Greek/Egyptian (which was in\nturn heavily influenced by Hellenstic philosophy, in particular\nneoplatonism) and Aryan/Persian, which borrowed more from Eastern\nmystical traditions.\n\nI think that while there are several gnostic-like ideas in the Solar\nCycle, Wolfe seemingly pirated lots of obscure beliefs from that\nregion, like kabbalah as well (Briah, Yesod, etc.) as well as\nJudeo-Christian mystic traditions." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 5:19 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nGnosticism was influenced by Zoroastrianism, which is Manichaean, so it's\ncertainly dualistic. But to Wolfe, one way is not better than the other, or\nany other way. All paths are potential paths to leaving the false and\nfinding the good and true. Severian's interest in Vodalism certainly makes\nhim a Seeker for Truth, even if Vodalus himself is false.\n\nThe gnostic \"option,\" _I_ think, is simply a powerful way of suggesting that\ngoal directly. That's why I like the sun/stars imagery---we think we see\nmore in the day, but of course we don't see very far. The stars are\nthere---if you look.\n\nEvery hero and every human being has to discover for him or herself what is\ntrue and what it false, and frequently what seems true is false, and the\nreverse. So the main point is just that you look---look beyond what is\nobvious, consider that there may be data you are not factoring into your\nanalysis.\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 18:40:48 +0000\nFrom: \"Son of Witz\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Gnosticism in BotNS\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"utf-8\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "This is classic gnostic imagery. Since gnosticism posits a false local\nCreator and a true universal Creator, Vodalus seems to align himself >with\ntrue knowledge. However. his knowledge is probably to be regarded >as false,\nif not Satanic, even though the true god is more like the >hidden one than\nlike the light-of-day one. We could probably usefully >compare the\nlibertines' anticipation of sexual experience through the >alzabo with\nSeverian's mastery of self through the alzabo. Severian >supplants and\nsupercedes both autarchs by conciliating between their >desires for Man.\n\nRemember the inscription in the mausoleum: Look, and See. God must be\nsought, not received. The Conciliator also is associated with gnostic\nimagery (the Black Sun). Silk, in promoting the Outsider, plays a >similar\nrole. So Wolfe basically uses gnostic imagery, I think, to >create a tension\nbetween failed approaches to the Increate that is >resolved by the \"proper\"\napproach. Something like that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is the main thing I get out of the Gnostic theology I've looked into.\nIt strikes me that people critiquing it as mere \"duality\" is a bit off base.\nI think, at a really simple level, it's saying \"Align yourself to the true\nGod, and not this False Creator and his limited creation.\" ?Which definitely\njibes with the way Wolfe uses this imagery. ?Of course, The Long Sun is a\nperfect metaphor of this idea. ?A false God and his little dominion.\n\n~witz\n\n\n\n\n------------------------------\n\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 090408-0, 04/08/2009\nTested on: 4/8/2009 6:19:10 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-09T03:06:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gnosticism in BotNS‏", "in_reply_to": "<272706220904082001s16053017ub81f298085d2a082@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On a more prosaic note I'll point out that in Severian's boyhood visit\nto the Witches Tower he sees, \"Gnostic designs in white, green \nand purple had been chalked on the walls..\"\n\nperhaps more on that later.\n \n \n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<272706220904082024y55c63cdel5653add9c455d949@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-09T03:24:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gnosticism in BotNS‏", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Which makes one wonder where Severian learned a word like \"gnostic,\"\nsince his world seems to be rather unitary in terms of religious\ndiversity.\n\n2009/4/8 b sharp :" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On a more prosaic note I'll point out that in Severian's boyhood visit\nto the Witches Tower he sees, \"Gnostic designs in white, green\nand purple had been chalked on the walls..\"\n\nperhaps more on that later.\n\n\n-bsharp\n_________________________________________________________________\nRediscover Hotmail?: Get e-mail storage that grows with you.\nhttp://windowslive.com/RediscoverHotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Rediscover_Storage1_042009\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0904082131u50ae9013u7448738c3903322d@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-09T04:31:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gnosticism in BotNS‏", "in_reply_to": "<272706220904082024y55c63cdel5653add9c455d949@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Remember, it's Wolfe's future vocabulary. \"Gnostic\" here, at least to\nSeverian, is probably synonymous with \"occult\"--the symbols are mysterious,\nunderstood or intelligible only to an initiated few.\n\nOf course, *Wolfe *probably wants to evoke Gnosticism even though Severian\nhas no such thought." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 11:24 PM, Lane Haygood wrote:\nWhich makes one wonder where Severian learned a word like \"gnostic,\"\nsince his world seems to be rather unitary in terms of religious\ndiversity.\n\n2009/4/8 b sharp :" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On a more prosaic note I'll point out that in Severian's boyhood visit\nto the Witches Tower he sees, \"Gnostic designs in white, green\nand purple had been chalked on the walls..\"\n\nperhaps more on that later.\n\n\n-bsharp\n_________________________________________________________________\nRediscover Hotmail?: Get e-mail storage that grows with you." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "http://windowslive.com/RediscoverHotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Rediscover_Storage1_042009\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<563137189.20090409174604@poczta.fm>", "from": { "name": "Stanislaus B.", "address": "sbocian at poczta.fm" }, "date": "2009-04-09T15:46:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gnosticism in BotNS", "in_reply_to": "<10678.67.142.130.16.1239232090.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hello!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 9 kwietnia 2009, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nGnosticism was influenced by Zoroastrianism, which is Manichaean, so it's\ncertainly dualistic." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is a popular idea, but not a true one:\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Zoroastrianism is, in fact, the oldest of what are called the monotheistic\nreligions." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wolfe is aware of this. Latro is a sworn follower of the Great King who is\n(not coincidentally) a follower of the One True God." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This, of course, has nothing to do at all with the discussion of\ngnosticism in the BotNS." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Each of the ancient religions even somewhat popular in the West has\ntwo versions: the version believed by the traditional members, and\nthe version believed in by the Western converts. The Western version\nis obviously the original, true religion, freed from the accumulated\nmistakes of centuries.\n\nZoroastrianism in the Western, true and original version is\nmonotheistic. Zoroastrianism as believed in by Persians and Parsees\nis very much dualistic. Manicheism, and all other versions of Iranian\ngnosis is also dualistic.\n\nSyrian and Egyptian Gnosis is fundamentally monist, with the Demiurg\nbeing a fallen being of the Light." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Best regards,\nStanislaus B.\n\n\n----------------------------------------------------------------------\n10% zysku na lokacie bankowej z gwarancja BFG. Sprawdz!\nhttp://link.interia.pl/f20fd" } ] }, { "message_id": "<11601.67.142.130.39.1239297005.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-04-09T17:10:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gnosticism in BotNS", "in_reply_to": "<563137189.20090409174604@poczta.fm>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Zoroastrianism in the Western, true and original version is\nmonotheistic. Zoroastrianism as believed in by Persians and Parsees\nis very much dualistic." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not the Persians or the Parsees that I have talked to, or the ones who\nmaintain this webpage: http://tenets.zoroastrianism.com/qstns33.html\n\nExcerpt:\n\nTo Zarathushtra, Ahura Mazda is \"vispanam Datarem\" = CREATOR OF ALL (G.Y.\n44:7), and hence the sole and supreme master of ALL that exists.\nUndoubtedly, MONOTHEISM is the first article of faith in the revelation of\nZarathushtra. The manifested creation is dualistic, but the Godhead is\nmonotheistic. All the sacred Zarathushtrian religious texts live, breathe\nand preach the strictest monotheism. Ahura Mazda is described as the One\nAnd Only Creator (“Boon-e Stih”), the Lord Of All (“Harveshp-Khuda”), the\nEnd Of All (“Frakhtan-teh”), the Cause Of All Causes (“Jamag”), the\nCauseless (“A-chem”), Without Any Partner (“Aekh-tan”), One Alone\n(“A-dui”), and the Master Of The Universe (“Khudavand”).\n\nIn the religion of Zarathushtrian there is absolutely nothing which does\nnot unerringly refer back to Ahura Mazda. Everything that exists is a\nCREATION of Ahura Mazda who stands solitary and supreme at the apex of the\nuniverse. Even the angelic beings known as Yazatas, exalted though they\nare, are but the creations of Ahura Mazda, directly owing to Him their\nexistence and power. At the start of every Niyaesh and Yasht addressed to\nthese divinities Ahura Mazda is remembered first in the dedicatory\nformula: \"Khshnaothra Ahurahe Mazdao!\" = To the glory of Ahura Mazda! And\nthis is quickly followed up by: \"Pa name Yazdan Ahuramazda Khodae awazuni,\ngorje khoreh awazayad!\" = I pray in the name of Yazdan, the Lord God Ahura\nMazda, the Beneficent; may His glory and His radiance be ever increased!\nIt is only after these introductory expressions of fidelity and devotion\nto Ahura Mazda that the main body of the prayer addressed to the Yazata\nconcerned commences.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<49DE3478.1020200@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-04-09T17:46:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gnosticism in BotNS", "in_reply_to": "<11601.67.142.130.39.1239297005.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The clarification is not inappropriate. Although I'm not sure where the idea comes from that people think Zoroastrianism is dualistic. Most people have never heard of it. \"Manichaean,\" however, is a synonym for \"dualistic.\"\n\nManichaeism (Manichean Zoroastrianism) was at least as common as traditional Zoroastrianism by Roman times and was famously dualistic, and was a strong influence on early Christianity and the Christian gnostics, just as non-gnostic and non-dualistic Zoroastrianism was earlier an influence on Judaism. \n\nThat was my point. Traditional Zoroastrianism itself has nothing to do with the topic. \n\nLane's clarification is even more apropos. I had no idea I had stumbled into a hotbed of non-Christian religionologists. I won't dumb it down nest time. But I have used \"gnosticism\" in the very general layman's sense reflected in Lane's comment that Wolfe pirated a number of obscure beliefs. A number of beliefs may be described as \"gnostic.\" \n\nIt is impossible to characterize gnosticism as a uniform belief system, and I don't intend to try. (Nor am I only interested in Christian gnosticism.) I think it's more useful to refer to a set of beliefs, motifs, images, and symbols as \"gnostic\" and leave it at that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 2\nDate: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 19:08:10 -0400 (EDT)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nSubject: Re: (urth) Gnosticism in BotNS\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: <10678.67.142.130.16.1239232090.squirrel at brunians.org>\nContent-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gnosticism was influenced by Zoroastrianism, which is Manichaean, so it's\ncertainly dualistic." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n\nThis is a popular idea, but not a true one:\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism\n\nZoroastrianism is, in fact, the oldest of what are called the monotheistic\nreligions.\n\nWolfe is aware of this. Latro is a sworn follower of the Great King who is\n(not coincidentally) a follower of the One True God.\n\nThis, of course, has nothing to do at all with the discussion of\ngnosticism in the BotNS." } ] }, { "message_id": "<49DE36C2.4090304@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-04-09T17:56:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gnosticism in BotNS", "in_reply_to": "<49DE3478.1020200@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My understanding was that the Parsees' religion doesn't exactly correspond to Zoroastrianism as practiced 5,000 or so years ago (or whatever the exact figure is), whichever one is deemed \"true.\" You wouldn't expect it to. It could easily have absorbed common, simple concepts like dualism; it would have been difficult to preserve perfectly.\n\nBut you're right: who studies this but Western scholars with a vested interest? Or was that not a bit of snark I detected? ;)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 9\nDate: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 17:46:04 +0200\nFrom: \"Stanislaus B.\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Gnosticism in BotNS\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: <563137189.20090409174604 at poczta.fm>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1250\n\nHello!\n\nOn 9 kwietnia 2009, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\n\n\nEach of the ancient religions even somewhat popular in the West has\ntwo versions: the version believed by the traditional members, and\nthe version believed in by the Western converts. The Western version\nis obviously the original, true religion, freed from the accumulated\nmistakes of centuries.\n\nZoroastrianism in the Western, true and original version is\nmonotheistic. Zoroastrianism as believed in by Persians and Parsees\nis very much dualistic. Manicheism, and all other versions of Iranian\ngnosis is also dualistic.\n\nSyrian and Egyptian Gnosis is fundamentally monist, with the Demiurg\nbeing a fallen being of the Light.\n\n\n-- Best regards, Stanislaus B." } ] }, { "message_id": "<14905.67.142.130.47.1239307498.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-04-09T20:04:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gnosticism in BotNS", "in_reply_to": "<49DE36C2.4090304@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, not all Zoroastrians left Iran (let alone Greater Iran). The ones\nthat went to India became the Parsis: there are still some tens of\nthousands of Zoroastrians in Iran, and thousands in Afghanistan,\nTajikistan and others of the stans (all of those countries named stan used\nto be part of the Persian Empire. The Persian Empire was a huge deal for a\nvery long time, and maybe will be again). These various communities have\nall intercommunicated and intermarried to some extent right along in\nthere.\n\nThere are and have been various trends within Zoroastrianism as you would\nexpect from any multiple thousands of years old religion: the wiki article\nsummarizes them well. Zoroastrians are a lot like Jews in that they love\nto fight over theology, and they call each other names with a will, but\nthey rarely kill each other over such questions, at least in recent\ncenturies.\n\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My understanding was that the Parsees' religion doesn't exactly correspond\nto Zoroastrianism as practiced 5,000 or so years ago (or whatever the\nexact figure is), whichever one is deemed \"true.\" You wouldn't expect it\nto. It could easily have absorbed common, simple concepts like dualism; it\nwould have been difficult to preserve perfectly.\n\nBut you're right: who studies this but Western scholars with a vested\ninterest? Or was that not a bit of snark I detected? ;)\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 9\nDate: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 17:46:04 +0200\nFrom: \"Stanislaus B.\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Gnosticism in BotNS\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: <563137189.20090409174604 at poczta.fm>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1250\n\nHello!\n\nOn 9 kwietnia 2009, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\n\n\nEach of the ancient religions even somewhat popular in the West has\ntwo versions: the version believed by the traditional members, and\nthe version believed in by the Western converts. The Western version\nis obviously the original, true religion, freed from the accumulated\nmistakes of centuries.\n\nZoroastrianism in the Western, true and original version is\nmonotheistic. Zoroastrianism as believed in by Persians and Parsees\nis very much dualistic. Manicheism, and all other versions of Iranian\ngnosis is also dualistic.\n\nSyrian and Egyptian Gnosis is fundamentally monist, with the Demiurg\nbeing a fallen being of the Light.\n\n\n-- Best regards, Stanislaus B.\n\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 090409-0, 04/09/2009\nTested on: 4/9/2009 1:56:19 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] } ] }