{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5405", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5405, "subject": "AEG - borrowings", "messages": 4, "voices": 3, "first": "2009-04-12T19:02:55+00:00", "last": "2009-04-30T15:15:45+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Stephen Hoy", "address": "stephenhoy at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-04-12T19:02:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG - borrowings", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Fernando Gouvea recently noted a curious coincidence between Wolfe's 'Peace'\n(1975) and Bartis's 'Tranquility' (2001), each work sharing a central\ncharacter named Weer. Gouvea also noted certain stylistic similarities,\nenough to make us wonder about the extent of the parallels. Let's take a\nlook at a couple of similar items in AEG, and see if we can detect the\nexistence of an invisible line between literary theft and literary allusion.\n\nWhile reading An Evil Guest, I noticed that the character Gideon Chase\nshares a name with a central character in Timothy Mo's historical novel, 'An\nInsular Possession' (1987). This might be a curious coincidence. It also\nmight be intentional. It's impossible to know with any certainty without\nasking the author (and perhaps not even then).\n\nSuppose that it's not a coincidence. Suppose Wolfe read 'An Insular\nPossession' some years ago, and suppose that when he invented the character\nof the wizard, he chose the name Gideon Chase as a reflection of some aspect\nof this character, intentionally reinforcing the idea of Chase as a figure\nbridging the gap between the two cultures colliding in AEG. Is there\nanything wrong with that?\nLet's take another case: the trembling mountain and the laundress. As Marc\nAramini pointed out in October, Wolfe reviewed a work with a similar motif,\nCory Doctorow's 'Someone Comes to Town, Someone Leaves Town' (2005). After\nreading both works, it's hard to believe that Wolfe was not self-consciously\nreferring to Doctorow's mountain & washing machine, and, further, that Wolfe\nfully realized Doctorow or any reader of 'Someone Comes to Town, Someone\nLeaves Town' would recognize the motif in AEG. Is there anything wrong with\nthat?\n\nTo each of the above, I'd venture a guess that there's nothing wrong with\neither act, but I have very different reasons for each guess.\n\nIn the case of the name Gideon Chase, it's not clear that Wolfe borrowed\nfrom Mo. Assuming there is a conscious borrowing, there are very few\nsimilarities between the two characters. Personally, I doubt that readers\nfamiliar with both works would suspect Wolfe chose the name as a conscious\nreflection of Mo's character, but the possibility exists.\n\nIn the case of the mountain and laundress, it's possible Doctorow and Wolfe\neach borrowed from a common source, perhaps some work transcribing Algonquin\nlegends. It's also possible Wolfe asked Doctorow's permission to use the\nidea--although one might expect to see a word or two about it in AEG or\nperhaps even in an interview about AEG.\n\nBut assume Wolfe borrowed these two things without explicit advance\npermission, somehow slipping them past the legal team at his publisher. But\nis this any different from Wolfe's explicit use of a Baskin-Robbins in an\nearly chapter? Does anyone imagine that either Mo or Doctorow would object\nto Wolfe's particular use as they appear in AEG?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<43866923-D8FC-4898-B4EA-A9C3B5879A2C@goosemoon.org>", "from": { "name": "Allan Anderson", "address": "rubel at goosemoon.org" }, "date": "2009-04-15T07:00:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG - borrowings", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was going to postpone commenting on this for a couple of days while \nI finish the book, but I can't help myself.\n\nSo far, I'm thinking that any and all \"borrowings\" fit nicely into An \nEvil Guest's nature as a sort of tribute piece, a stylistic pastiche. \nMaybe no one thinks anyone would care about a implicit literary \nreference. I'm delighted to hear about these connections you've \ndiscovered! When I read \"Gideon Chase\", I thought of the character \n\"Gideon Stargrave\" (aka King Mob) from the comic book series The \nInvisibles. He's another horror/sf writer who becomes more than that \nprofession might seem. But it's very possible that Grant Morrison \nreferred to Mo's novel in his own choice of names: what makes The \nInvisibles relevant, I think, is the books' conscious blending of \ngenre, reality, and fiction. It's an unique story, but also very much \na borrowed patchwork shirt. And pulpy stories of the type AEG seems to \nwant a family relationship with, well, they have always dipped a range \nof sources. So it's completely appropriate, to my mind.\n\nBut here's my question: at the cast party, someone tells Cassie she \nlooks like she's seen a banshee. Aren't Banshees often seen washing \nbloody clothing, as a death omen? Is that the mountain's laundress?\n\nOkay, I'll shut up and get back to reading." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Apr 12, 2009, at 12:02 PM, Stephen Hoy wrote:\nFernando Gouvea recently noted a curious coincidence between Wolfe's \n'Peace'\n(1975) and Bartis's 'Tranquility' (2001), each work sharing a central\ncharacter named Weer. Gouvea also noted certain stylistic \nsimilarities,\nenough to make us wonder about the extent of the parallels. Let's \ntake a\nlook at a couple of similar items in AEG, and see if we can detect the\nexistence of an invisible line between literary theft and literary \nallusion.\n\nWhile reading An Evil Guest, I noticed that the character Gideon Chase\nshares a name with a central character in Timothy Mo's historical \nnovel, 'An\nInsular Possession' (1987). This might be a curious coincidence. It \nalso\nmight be intentional. It's impossible to know with any certainty \nwithout\nasking the author (and perhaps not even then).\n\nSuppose that it's not a coincidence. Suppose Wolfe read 'An Insular\nPossession' some years ago, and suppose that when he invented the \ncharacter\nof the wizard, he chose the name Gideon Chase as a reflection of \nsome aspect\nof this character, intentionally reinforcing the idea of Chase as a \nfigure\nbridging the gap between the two cultures colliding in AEG. Is there\nanything wrong with that?\nLet's take another case: the trembling mountain and the laundress. \nAs Marc\nAramini pointed out in October, Wolfe reviewed a work with a similar \nmotif,\nCory Doctorow's 'Someone Comes to Town, Someone Leaves Town' (2005). \nAfter\nreading both works, it's hard to believe that Wolfe was not self- \nconsciously\nreferring to Doctorow's mountain & washing machine, and, further, \nthat Wolfe\nfully realized Doctorow or any reader of 'Someone Comes to Town, \nSomeone\nLeaves Town' would recognize the motif in AEG. Is there anything \nwrong with\nthat?\n\nTo each of the above, I'd venture a guess that there's nothing wrong \nwith\neither act, but I have very different reasons for each guess.\n\nIn the case of the name Gideon Chase, it's not clear that Wolfe \nborrowed\nfrom Mo. Assuming there is a conscious borrowing, there are very few\nsimilarities between the two characters. Personally, I doubt that \nreaders\nfamiliar with both works would suspect Wolfe chose the name as a \nconscious\nreflection of Mo's character, but the possibility exists.\n\nIn the case of the mountain and laundress, it's possible Doctorow \nand Wolfe\neach borrowed from a common source, perhaps some work transcribing \nAlgonquin\nlegends. It's also possible Wolfe asked Doctorow's permission to use \nthe\nidea--although one might expect to see a word or two about it in AEG \nor\nperhaps even in an interview about AEG.\n\nBut assume Wolfe borrowed these two things without explicit advance\npermission, somehow slipping them past the legal team at his \npublisher. But\nis this any different from Wolfe's explicit use of a Baskin-Robbins \nin an\nearly chapter? Does anyone imagine that either Mo or Doctorow would \nobject\nto Wolfe's particular use as they appear in AEG?\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<273409710904150914r3990e954ga35bada7bc1a73a8@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-15T16:14:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG - borrowings", "in_reply_to": "<43866923-D8FC-4898-B4EA-A9C3B5879A2C@goosemoon.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Invisibles is great." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 12:00 AM, Allan Anderson wrote:\nI was going to postpone commenting on this for a couple of days while I\nfinish the book, but I can't help myself.\n\nSo far, I'm thinking that any and all \"borrowings\" fit nicely into An Evil\nGuest's nature as a sort of tribute piece, a stylistic pastiche. Maybe no\none thinks anyone would care about a implicit literary reference. I'm\ndelighted to hear about these connections you've discovered! When I read\n\"Gideon Chase\", I thought of the character \"Gideon Stargrave\" (aka King Mob)\nfrom the comic book series The Invisibles. He's another horror/sf writer who\nbecomes more than that profession might seem. But it's very possible that\nGrant Morrison referred to Mo's novel in his own choice of names: what makes\nThe Invisibles relevant, I think, is the books' conscious blending of genre,\nreality, and fiction. It's an unique story, but also very much a borrowed\npatchwork shirt. And pulpy stories of the type AEG seems to want a family\nrelationship with, well, they have always dipped a range of sources. So\nit's completely appropriate, to my mind.\n\nBut here's my question: at the cast party, someone tells Cassie she looks\nlike she's seen a banshee. Aren't Banshees often seen washing bloody\nclothing, as a death omen? Is that the mountain's laundress?\n\nOkay, I'll shut up and get back to reading.\n\n\nOn Apr 12, 2009, at 12:02 PM, Stephen Hoy wrote:\n\n Fernando Gouvea recently noted a curious coincidence between Wolfe's\n'Peace'" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "(1975) and Bartis's 'Tranquility' (2001), each work sharing a central\ncharacter named Weer. Gouvea also noted certain stylistic similarities,\nenough to make us wonder about the extent of the parallels. Let's take a\nlook at a couple of similar items in AEG, and see if we can detect the\nexistence of an invisible line between literary theft and literary\nallusion.\n\nWhile reading An Evil Guest, I noticed that the character Gideon Chase\nshares a name with a central character in Timothy Mo's historical novel,\n'An\nInsular Possession' (1987). This might be a curious coincidence. It also\nmight be intentional. It's impossible to know with any certainty without\nasking the author (and perhaps not even then).\n\nSuppose that it's not a coincidence. Suppose Wolfe read 'An Insular\nPossession' some years ago, and suppose that when he invented the\ncharacter\nof the wizard, he chose the name Gideon Chase as a reflection of some\naspect\nof this character, intentionally reinforcing the idea of Chase as a figure\nbridging the gap between the two cultures colliding in AEG. Is there\nanything wrong with that?\nLet's take another case: the trembling mountain and the laundress. As Marc\nAramini pointed out in October, Wolfe reviewed a work with a similar\nmotif,\nCory Doctorow's 'Someone Comes to Town, Someone Leaves Town' (2005). After\nreading both works, it's hard to believe that Wolfe was not\nself-consciously\nreferring to Doctorow's mountain & washing machine, and, further, that\nWolfe\nfully realized Doctorow or any reader of 'Someone Comes to Town, Someone\nLeaves Town' would recognize the motif in AEG. Is there anything wrong\nwith\nthat?\n\nTo each of the above, I'd venture a guess that there's nothing wrong with\neither act, but I have very different reasons for each guess.\n\nIn the case of the name Gideon Chase, it's not clear that Wolfe borrowed\nfrom Mo. Assuming there is a conscious borrowing, there are very few\nsimilarities between the two characters. Personally, I doubt that readers\nfamiliar with both works would suspect Wolfe chose the name as a conscious\nreflection of Mo's character, but the possibility exists.\n\nIn the case of the mountain and laundress, it's possible Doctorow and\nWolfe\neach borrowed from a common source, perhaps some work transcribing\nAlgonquin\nlegends. It's also possible Wolfe asked Doctorow's permission to use the\nidea--although one might expect to see a word or two about it in AEG or\nperhaps even in an interview about AEG.\n\nBut assume Wolfe borrowed these two things without explicit advance\npermission, somehow slipping them past the legal team at his publisher.\nBut\nis this any different from Wolfe's explicit use of a Baskin-Robbins in an\nearly chapter? Does anyone imagine that either Mo or Doctorow would object\nto Wolfe's particular use as they appear in AEG?\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Stephen Hoy", "address": "stephenhoy at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-04-30T15:15:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG - Banshee as laundress redux", "in_reply_to": "<43866923-D8FC-4898-B4EA-A9C3B5879A2C@goosemoon.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not long ago, Allan Anderson asked:\n<<< But here's my question: at the cast party, someone tells Cassie she\nlooks like she's seen a banshee. Aren't Banshees often seen washing\nbloody clothing, as a death omen? Is that the mountain's laundress? >>\n\nAllan's question prompted me to review some discussions we've had on urth-l\nabout AEG's banshee. For example, Henry Eissler's reply to Dave Tallman (16\nOct) and Tallman's reply to Eissler (18 Dec).\n\nThe word 'banshee' derives from a Gaelic term for 'faerie woman'\n(alternately 'faerie washer-woman', if we start with the Scots' version).\nOne aspect of the banshee legend is the familiar figure of the\nwasher-at-the-ford.\n\nLet's take a closer look at the text and see what else may turn up. Here's\nthe banshee / Grey Neighbor exchange at the cast party:\n----------------------\n Palma smiled, and brushed an invisible yellow feather from his lips with\na manicured and be-ringed paw. \"She has heard the banshee.\"\n \"Seen it,\" Cassie said, \"and I think I'm going to be going out with it in\na day or two.\"\n \"Why Cassie!\" Norma was grinning. \"You always seemed to so hetro.\"\n \"English speakers,\" Palma lectured her smoothly, \"are invariably deceived\nby the second syllable. It merely conveys that banshees are to be numbered\namongst the Grey Neighbors.\"\n \"I'll be damned if I've got the foggiest idea what that's supposed to\nmean,\" Norma said, \"but doesn't Cassie have a gray neighbor right now?\"\n \"She's talking about me,\" Margaret whispered.\n- AEG p64\n----------------------\n\nStrictly speaking, Cassie and Palma are incorrect. A banshee is a female\nfigure (the first syllable describes a 'woman'). However, Palma's wordplay\non the second syllable is on point. Despite being homonymous with the\npronoun 'she', the term 'sidh' indicates a member of the race of faeries or\nfallen angels. 'Grey Neighbors' is a common conversational euphemism for the\n'sidh'. I imagine Wolfe's larger point in this exchange is to alert the\nreader to the idea that at least some of the fantastic characters in AEG are\n'sidh'.\n\nIt's not a great leap to infer that Margaret is a Grey Neighbor. Her surname\nBriggs (bridge) is just a step away from Ford / Ferry, recalling the\nwasher-at-the-ford. She later styles herself \"an expert seamstress and\nlaundress, and a discreet companion.\" (p54) 'Discreet companion' fits a\nbain-sidh, who follow a family's progress through generations without\ndetection, except when a family leader dies. Also from this description on\np54, we might reasonably infer that Margaret Briggs is the un-important\nlaundress-spouse of the sentient mountain mentioned almost in passing by\nChase during the hike to the mountain's altar (p41).\n\nMargaret-as-Banshee does not preclude a Margaret-as-werewolf theory, because\nanother idea in Gaelic myth is that each 'sidh' has a particular animal form\nin addition to its human form. This in turn leads to other speculations\nbandied about that Margaret and Cassie are the same entity, either displaced\nin time, or a clone one of the other, or infused with the same spirit, etc." } ] } ] }