{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5407", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5407, "subject": "Weekly blog links", "messages": 46, "voices": 20, "first": "2009-04-14T03:40:39+00:00", "last": "2009-04-16T03:26:51+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-14T03:40:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Weekly blog links", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A nice discussion of \"The Toy Theater\" in _The Best of Gene Wolfe_:\nhttp://www.locusmag.com/Roundtable/2009/04/reading-gene-wolfe.html\n\n\"...Does anyone have any better answers than this? I'm ducking a whole\nseries of issues, I realise: is the narrator a reliable one? Is Lili,\nin turn, reliable in her claims about Stromboli? Why does the narrator\ngive us so few clues about what he himself is feeling? (In this, he's\nvery much like other Wolfe protagonists.) That a story of, I guess, no\nmore than 3000 words can generate so much exegesis (and a feeling that\nyou've still not exhausted it) is a huge tribute to the density that\nWolfe achieves in his best short fiction.\"" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20090414042801.631EA48008@diego.dreamhost.com>", "from": { "name": "Mo Holkar / UKG", "address": "lists at ukg.co.uk" }, "date": "2009-04-14T04:28:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Weekly blog links", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 04:40 14/04/2009, you wrote:\nA nice discussion of \"The Toy Theater\" in _The Best of Gene Wolfe_:\nhttp://www.locusmag.com/Roundtable/2009/04/reading-gene-wolfe.html\n\n\"...Does anyone have any better answers than this? I'm ducking a whole\nseries of issues, I realise: is the narrator a reliable one? Is Lili,\nin turn, reliable in her claims about Stromboli? Why does the narrator\ngive us so few clues about what he himself is feeling? (In this, he's\nvery much like other Wolfe protagonists.) That a story of, I guess, no\nmore than 3000 words can generate so much exegesis (and a feeling that\nyou've still not exhausted it) is a huge tribute to the density that\nWolfe achieves in his best short fiction.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There are quite a few advocates (including Dave Tallman on the wiki) \nof the theory that the narrator is himself a puppet, dismissed by \nthis commentator. I don't buy it myself either, buit it is slightly nagging...\n\nbest,\n\nMo\n\n\n# ~ # ~ #\n\nWolfeWiki now at:\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/ " } ] }, { "message_id": "<37bfbeb60904132218j370acb6cp2fd099e318ac7fa8@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jonathan Goodwin", "address": "joncgoodwin at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-14T05:18:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Weekly blog links", "in_reply_to": "<20090414042801.631EA48008@diego.dreamhost.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I believe I came to that conclusion a few years ago myself.\n\nI recently made some disappointed comments on Pirate Freedom:\n\nhttp://www.jgoodwin.net/?p=647\n\nHow many of you agree that the Wolfe of Fifth Head, Peace, New Sun,\nEndangered Species (partially), and Death of Dr. Island and OS and OS\nis not even recognizably the same author as that of Pirate Freedom, An\nEvil Guest, or the Short Sun? (Shared concerns, yes. The quality of\nexecution, however, is more like that of a bad imitator.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There are quite a few advocates (including Dave Tallman on the wiki) of the\ntheory that the narrator is himself a puppet, dismissed by this commentator.\nI don't buy it myself either, buit it is slightly nagging...\n\nbest,\n\nMo\n\n\n# ~ # ~ #\n\nWolfeWiki now at:\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6067.67.142.130.25.1239687152.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-04-14T05:32:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Weekly blog links", "in_reply_to": "<37bfbeb60904132218j370acb6cp2fd099e318ac7fa8@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So why don't you like the book, Jon? I understand from your article that\nyou don't like it: that is abundantly obvious. But I think a review of\nthis nature would be more useful if you would include a paragraph - even\nhalf a paragraph - where you give your reasons for not liking it.\n\nJust a thought.\n\nOf course, you may just be a ouanquerre.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I believe I came to that conclusion a few years ago myself.\n\nI recently made some disappointed comments on Pirate Freedom:\n\nhttp://www.jgoodwin.net/?p=647\n\nHow many of you agree that the Wolfe of Fifth Head, Peace, New Sun,\nEndangered Species (partially), and Death of Dr. Island and OS and OS\nis not even recognizably the same author as that of Pirate Freedom, An\nEvil Guest, or the Short Sun? (Shared concerns, yes. The quality of\nexecution, however, is more like that of a bad imitator.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There are quite a few advocates (including Dave Tallman on the wiki) of\nthe\ntheory that the narrator is himself a puppet, dismissed by this\ncommentator.\nI don't buy it myself either, buit it is slightly nagging...\n\nbest,\n\nMo\n\n\n# ~ # ~ #\n\nWolfeWiki now at:\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<37bfbeb60904132244o8478e25gbe5057996234d13e@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jonathan Goodwin", "address": "joncgoodwin at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-14T05:44:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Weekly blog links", "in_reply_to": "<6067.67.142.130.25.1239687152.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought I did in the post, but here it is again: I think the book\n(and several others) rely on the author's well-earned reputation for\nsubtlety to mask or adorn what are essentially undeveloped\npot-boilers. The time-travel aspect of Pirate Freedom illustrates this\nnicely, I think.\n\nDozois's introduction to FHC in _Modern Classics of Science Fiction_\n(viewable via google books) might shed some additional\nsociology-of-publishing light on this." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 12:32 AM, wrote:\nSo why don't you like the book, Jon? I understand from your article that\nyou don't like it: that is abundantly obvious. But I think a review of\nthis nature would be more useful if you would include a paragraph - even\nhalf a paragraph - where you give your reasons for not liking it.\n\nJust a thought.\n\nOf course, you may just be a ouanquerre.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I believe I came to that conclusion a few years ago myself.\n\nI recently made some disappointed comments on Pirate Freedom:\n\nhttp://www.jgoodwin.net/?p=647\n\nHow many of you agree that the Wolfe of Fifth Head, Peace, New Sun,\nEndangered Species (partially), and Death of Dr. Island and OS and OS\nis not even recognizably the same author as that of Pirate Freedom, An\nEvil Guest, or the Short Sun? (Shared concerns, yes. The quality of\nexecution, however, is more like that of a bad imitator.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "There are quite a few advocates (including Dave Tallman on the wiki) of\nthe\ntheory that the narrator is himself a puppet, dismissed by this\ncommentator.\nI don't buy it myself either, buit it is slightly nagging...\n\nbest,\n\nMo\n\n\n# ~ # ~ #\n\nWolfeWiki now at:\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris P", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-14T07:02:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Weekly blog links", "in_reply_to": "<37bfbeb60904132244o8478e25gbe5057996234d13e@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "All other things aside I don't see what \"sociology of publishing\" has to do with the quality of a particular work. The work stands or falls on its own merit. It seems like you are taking for granted that certain aspects of the work are inferior and then, when asked for a reason, attempting to explain how such inferior aspects managed to get published. But what's being asked of you is an explanation of why you judge said aspects to be inferior in the first place.\n\nI am not trying, in this case, to even argue with your conclusion. I just think your reasoning is not as clear as you think, because you're mixing up the possible questions that could be asked here and answering, at least in part, the wrong one." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I thought I did in the post, but here it is again: I think the book\n(and several others) rely on the author's well-earned reputation for\nsubtlety to mask or adorn what are essentially undeveloped\npot-boilers. The time-travel aspect of Pirate Freedom illustrates this\nnicely, I think.\n\nDozois's introduction to FHC in _Modern Classics of Science Fiction_\n(viewable via google books) might shed some additional\nsociology-of-publishing light on this.\n\nOn Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 12:32 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So why don't you like the book, Jon? I understand from your article that\nyou don't like it: that is abundantly obvious. But I think a review of\nthis nature would be more useful if you would include a paragraph - even\nhalf a paragraph - where you give your reasons for not liking it.\n\nJust a thought.\n\nOf course, you may just be a ouanquerre.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I believe I came to that conclusion a few years ago myself.\n\nI recently made some disappointed comments on Pirate Freedom:\n\nhttp://www.jgoodwin.net/?p=647\n\nHow many of you agree that the Wolfe of Fifth Head, Peace, New Sun,\nEndangered Species (partially), and Death of Dr. Island and OS and OS\nis not even recognizably the same author as that of Pirate Freedom, An\nEvil Guest, or the Short Sun? (Shared concerns, yes. The quality of\nexecution, however, is more like that of a bad imitator.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "There are quite a few advocates (including Dave Tallman on the wiki) of\nthe\ntheory that the narrator is himself a puppet, dismissed by this\ncommentator.\nI don't buy it myself either, buit it is slightly nagging...\n\nbest,\n\nMo\n\n\n# ~ # ~ #\n\nWolfeWiki now at:\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<13177.67.142.130.19.1239693101.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-04-14T07:11:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Weekly blog links", "in_reply_to": "<37bfbeb60904132244o8478e25gbe5057996234d13e@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "i want to apologize for my last remark, which I was very wrong to pass.\nYou are entitled to your opinion, of course, I was at the tail end of a\nfrazzled day.\n\nI don't agree with you about Pirate Freedom, but these couple of sentences\ndo make more clear your problems with the book.\n\nAgain, my apologies.\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I thought I did in the post, but here it is again: I think the book\n(and several others) rely on the author's well-earned reputation for\nsubtlety to mask or adorn what are essentially undeveloped\npot-boilers. The time-travel aspect of Pirate Freedom illustrates this\nnicely, I think.\n\nDozois's introduction to FHC in _Modern Classics of Science Fiction_\n(viewable via google books) might shed some additional\nsociology-of-publishing light on this.\n\nOn Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 12:32 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So why don't you like the book, Jon? I understand from your article that\nyou don't like it: that is abundantly obvious. But I think a review of\nthis nature would be more useful if you would include a paragraph - even\nhalf a paragraph - where you give your reasons for not liking it.\n\nJust a thought.\n\nOf course, you may just be a ouanquerre.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I believe I came to that conclusion a few years ago myself.\n\nI recently made some disappointed comments on Pirate Freedom:\n\nhttp://www.jgoodwin.net/?p=647\n\nHow many of you agree that the Wolfe of Fifth Head, Peace, New Sun,\nEndangered Species (partially), and Death of Dr. Island and OS and OS\nis not even recognizably the same author as that of Pirate Freedom, An\nEvil Guest, or the Short Sun? (Shared concerns, yes. The quality of\nexecution, however, is more like that of a bad imitator.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "There are quite a few advocates (including Dave Tallman on the wiki)\nof\nthe\ntheory that the narrator is himself a puppet, dismissed by this\ncommentator.\nI don't buy it myself either, buit it is slightly nagging...\n\nbest,\n\nMo\n\n\n# ~ # ~ #\n\nWolfeWiki now at:\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<809D3071-381F-42BD-BE3B-F2B7CA7DC2DF@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Transentient", "address": "transentient at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-14T12:08:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Weekly blog links", "in_reply_to": "<37bfbeb60904132218j370acb6cp2fd099e318ac7fa8@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Did you really mean to include Short Sun in the list of books / series \nthat are not the same? And not Knight / Wizard?\n\nWhat strikes me about the later books is that the narrative itself \nfeels more coherent and the books are smoother from start to finish. I \nthink you can see this with Solider of Sidon which has a dramatically \ndifferent feel that the previous two books. It is like the machinery \nfor producing the story went from analogue to digital. Short Sun is \nkind of a transitionary series." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Apr 14, 2009, at 1:18 AM, Jonathan Goodwin wrote:\n\nHow many of you agree that the Wolfe of Fifth Head, Peace, New Sun,\nEndangered Species (partially), and Death of Dr. Island and OS and OS\nis not even recognizably the same author as that of Pirate Freedom, An\nEvil Guest, or the Short Sun? (Shared concerns, yes. The quality of\nexecution, however, is more like that of a bad imitator.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0904140541r1ffe49adk2cfa4963315d921c@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-14T12:41:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Weekly blog links", "in_reply_to": "<809D3071-381F-42BD-BE3B-F2B7CA7DC2DF@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think Short Sun (which I'm rereading now) is as good as anything Wolfe\never wrote.\nI can't say the same about Pirate Freedom or Soldier of Sidon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 8:08 AM, Transentient wrote:\n\nDid you really mean to include Short Sun in the list of books / series that\nare not the same? And not Knight / Wizard?\n\nWhat strikes me about the later books is that the narrative itself feels\nmore coherent and the books are smoother from start to finish. I think you\ncan see this with Solider of Sidon which has a dramatically different feel\nthat the previous two books. It is like the machinery for producing the\nstory went from analogue to digital. Short Sun is kind of a transitionary\nseries.\n\nOn Apr 14, 2009, at 1:18 AM, Jonathan Goodwin wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "How many of you agree that the Wolfe of Fifth Head, Peace, New Sun,\nEndangered Species (partially), and Death of Dr. Island and OS and OS\nis not even recognizably the same author as that of Pirate Freedom, An\nEvil Guest, or the Short Sun? (Shared concerns, yes. The quality of\nexecution, however, is more like that of a bad imitator.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-04-14T14:10:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Weekly blog links", "in_reply_to": "<37bfbeb60904132218j370acb6cp2fd099e318ac7fa8@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Apr 14, 2009, at 12:18 AM, Jonathan Goodwin wrote:\nHow many of you agree that the Wolfe of Fifth Head, Peace, New Sun,\nEndangered Species (partially), and Death of Dr. Island and OS and OS\nis not even recognizably the same author as that of Pirate Freedom, An\nEvil Guest, or the Short Sun? (Shared concerns, yes. The quality of\nexecution, however, is more like that of a bad imitator.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're selling Short Sun and maybe AEG short. (I didn't like Pirate \nFreedom either.)\n\nI think *that's* a mistake.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<45AFAC53EBA74E0EA9BCB0BEA554C1E8@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-14T14:37:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Weekly blog links", "in_reply_to": "<13177.67.142.130.19.1239693101.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 12:32 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Josh: So why don't you like the book, Jon? I understand from your \narticle\nthat you don't like it: that is abundantly obvious. But I think a review \nof\nthis nature would be more useful if you would include a paragraph - even\nhalf a paragraph - where you give your reasons for not liking it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jon: I thought I did in the post, but here it is again: I think the book\n(and several others) rely on the author's well-earned reputation for\nsubtlety to mask or adorn what are essentially undeveloped\npot-boilers. The time-travel aspect of Pirate Freedom illustrates this\nnicely, I think." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Josh: i want to apologize for my last remark, which I was very wrong to \npass.\nYou are entitled to your opinion, of course, I was at the tail end of a\nfrazzled day.\nI don't agree with you about Pirate Freedom, but these couple of sentences\ndo make more clear your problems with the book. Again, my apologies." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "FWIW I think it was an appropriate question. It seems I'm not the only one \nwho thought so.\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<37bfbeb60904140748q62ab4d0eu66783d2a1a5b46d8@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jonathan Goodwin", "address": "joncgoodwin at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-14T14:48:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Weekly blog links", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I mentioned Dozois and publishing because I think it shows that Wolfe\nachieved success* with a certain approach exemplified best by FHC and\nnever seemed to abandon it fully, perhaps because of editorial and\naudience expectations. What MS did Dozois reject, for example? Maybe\nthis is known.\n\n*Not really commercial success, true. But I think his good critical\nreputation is justified and am a booster generally, which is why I am\nso bitterly disappointed in some of the recent work." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 2:02 AM, Chris P wrote:\nAll other things aside I don't see what \"sociology of publishing\" has to do\nwith the quality of a particular work. The work stands or falls on its own\nmerit. It seems like you are taking for granted that certain aspects of the\nwork are inferior and then, when asked for a reason, attempting to explain\nhow such inferior aspects managed to get published. But what's being asked\nof you is an explanation of why you judge said aspects to be inferior in the\nfirst place.\n\nI am not trying, in this case, to even argue with your conclusion. I just\nthink your reasoning is not as clear as you think, because you're mixing up\nthe possible questions that could be asked here and answering, at least in\npart, the wrong one." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I thought I did in the post, but here it is again: I think the book\n(and several others) rely on the author's well-earned reputation for\nsubtlety to mask or adorn what are essentially undeveloped\npot-boilers. The time-travel aspect of Pirate Freedom illustrates this\nnicely, I think.\n\nDozois's introduction to FHC in _Modern Classics of Science Fiction_\n(viewable via google books) might shed some additional\nsociology-of-publishing light on this.\n\nOn Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 12:32 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "So why don't you like the book, Jon? I understand from your article that\nyou don't like it: that is abundantly obvious. But I think a review of\nthis nature would be more useful if you would include a paragraph - even\nhalf a paragraph - where you give your reasons for not liking it.\n\nJust a thought.\n\nOf course, you may just be a ouanquerre.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I believe I came to that conclusion a few years ago myself.\n\nI recently made some disappointed comments on Pirate Freedom:\n\nhttp://www.jgoodwin.net/?p=647\n\nHow many of you agree that the Wolfe of Fifth Head, Peace, New Sun,\nEndangered Species (partially), and Death of Dr. Island and OS and OS\nis not even recognizably the same author as that of Pirate Freedom, An\nEvil Guest, or the Short Sun? (Shared concerns, yes. The quality of\nexecution, however, is more like that of a bad imitator.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "There are quite a few advocates (including Dave Tallman on the wiki)\nof\nthe\ntheory that the narrator is himself a puppet, dismissed by this\ncommentator.\nI don't buy it myself either, buit it is slightly nagging...\n\nbest,\n\nMo\n\n\n# ~ # ~ #\n\nWolfeWiki now at:\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<37bfbeb60904140749o7125d4a8g7c1022a5a8e03fec@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jonathan Goodwin", "address": "joncgoodwin at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-14T14:49:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Weekly blog links", "in_reply_to": "<809D3071-381F-42BD-BE3B-F2B7CA7DC2DF@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I left Knight/Wizard off because I have not yet read Wizard, but I\nagree that it probably belongs there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 7:08 AM, Transentient wrote:\n\nDid you really mean to include Short Sun in the list of books / series that\nare not the same? And not Knight / Wizard?\n\nWhat strikes me about the later books is that the narrative itself feels\nmore coherent and the books are smoother from start to finish. I think you\ncan see this with Solider of Sidon which has a dramatically different feel\nthat the previous two books. It is like the machinery for producing the\nstory went from analogue to digital. Short Sun is kind of a transitionary\nseries.\n\nOn Apr 14, 2009, at 1:18 AM, Jonathan Goodwin wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "How many of you agree that the Wolfe of Fifth Head, Peace, New Sun,\nEndangered Species (partially), and Death of Dr. Island and OS and OS\nis not even recognizably the same author as that of Pirate Freedom, An\nEvil Guest, or the Short Sun? (Shared concerns, yes. The quality of\nexecution, however, is more like that of a bad imitator.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5728.67.142.130.29.1239722254.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-04-14T15:17:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Weekly blog links", "in_reply_to": "<45AFAC53EBA74E0EA9BCB0BEA554C1E8@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it was an appropriate question: unfortunately, after I wrote it I\nwrote another sentence, which you elide, wherein I wondered if Jon was a\nouanquerre, which remark I regretted.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 12:32 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Josh: So why don't you like the book, Jon? I understand from your\narticle\nthat you don't like it: that is abundantly obvious. But I think a\nreview\nof\nthis nature would be more useful if you would include a paragraph -\neven\nhalf a paragraph - where you give your reasons for not liking it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Jon: I thought I did in the post, but here it is again: I think the\nbook\n(and several others) rely on the author's well-earned reputation for\nsubtlety to mask or adorn what are essentially undeveloped\npot-boilers. The time-travel aspect of Pirate Freedom illustrates this\nnicely, I think." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Josh: i want to apologize for my last remark, which I was very wrong to\npass.\nYou are entitled to your opinion, of course, I was at the tail end of a\nfrazzled day.\nI don't agree with you about Pirate Freedom, but these couple of\nsentences\ndo make more clear your problems with the book. Again, my apologies." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "FWIW I think it was an appropriate question. It seems I'm not the only one\nwho thought so.\n\nJ.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<37bfbeb60904140837t25363860i2ca3281edcc7c4ee@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jonathan Goodwin", "address": "joncgoodwin at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-14T15:37:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Weekly blog links", "in_reply_to": "<5728.67.142.130.29.1239722254.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To verify my intuition that this was some type of phonetic attempt at\n\"wanker,\" I searched and saw that someone on another forum calling\nhimself \"brunians\" applied this epithet to Chomsky, thus verifying\nanother intuition I had." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 10:17 AM, wrote:\nI think it was an appropriate question: unfortunately, after I wrote it I\nwrote another sentence, which you elide, wherein I wondered if Jon was a\nouanquerre, which remark I regretted.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 12:32 AM, ? wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Josh: So why don't you like the book, Jon? I understand from your\narticle\nthat you don't like it: that is abundantly obvious. But I think a\nreview\nof\nthis nature would be more useful if you would include a paragraph -\neven\nhalf a paragraph - where you give your reasons for not liking it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Jon: I thought I did in the post, but here it is again: I think the\nbook\n(and several others) rely on the author's well-earned reputation for\nsubtlety to mask or adorn what are essentially undeveloped\npot-boilers. The time-travel aspect of Pirate Freedom illustrates this\nnicely, I think." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Josh: i want to apologize for my last remark, which I was very wrong to\npass.\nYou are entitled to your opinion, of course, I was at the tail end of a\nfrazzled day.\nI don't agree with you about Pirate Freedom, but these couple of\nsentences\ndo make more clear your problems with the book. ?Again, my apologies." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "FWIW I think it was an appropriate question. It seems I'm not the only one\nwho thought so.\n\nJ.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Robin Dunn", "address": "bigbadgerjohnny at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-14T15:42:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Weekly blog links", "in_reply_to": "<809D3071-381F-42BD-BE3B-F2B7CA7DC2DF@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's possible Wolfe spent more time editing the Book of the New Sun\nthan most of his other works - I remember being very impressed that he\nhad all four books in draft form before publishing the first." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 5:08 AM, Transentient wrote:\n\nDid you really mean to include Short Sun in the list of books / series that\nare not the same? And not Knight / Wizard?\n\nWhat strikes me about the later books is that the narrative itself feels\nmore coherent and the books are smoother from start to finish. I think you\ncan see this with Solider of Sidon which has a dramatically different feel\nthat the previous two books. It is like the machinery for producing the\nstory went from analogue to digital. Short Sun is kind of a transitionary\nseries.\n\nOn Apr 14, 2009, at 1:18 AM, Jonathan Goodwin wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "How many of you agree that the Wolfe of Fifth Head, Peace, New Sun,\nEndangered Species (partially), and Death of Dr. Island and OS and OS\nis not even recognizably the same author as that of Pirate Freedom, An\nEvil Guest, or the Short Sun? (Shared concerns, yes. The quality of\nexecution, however, is more like that of a bad imitator.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-14T16:03:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Weekly blog links", "in_reply_to": "<37bfbeb60904140748q62ab4d0eu66783d2a1a5b46d8@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I mentioned Dozois and publishing because I think it shows that Wolfe\nachieved success* with a certain approach exemplified best by FHC and\nnever seemed to abandon it fully, perhaps because of editorial and\naudience expectations. What MS did Dozois reject, for example? Maybe\nthis is known." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think I can explain this feeling.\n\nSuperman in his own comic has the feeling of a god and savior. However, put \nhim in The Justice League, and he suddenly seems like a project manager in a \ncape (at worst) or a player manger on an athletic team (at best). You put a \nbunch of superheroes in the same room and they're all diminished. Have them \ntalk on the street at 2 in the afternoon in front of a movie theater and \nyou've got camp. (But I *like* camp!)\n\nWolfe's fiction is like that. FHoC? Great. Peace? Astounding. BotNS? \nMiraculous. But he keeps doing it, doesn't he? He keeps creating dense, \nocculted fiction that readers might never find the bottom of. So some \npeople (like Dozois) say, \"Agh! It's a racket! He had *one* successful novel \nand and he's just repeating it over and over because that's what people \nwant.\" So, unique, intricately-crafted, difficult fiction is a racket?\n\n(I realize Dozois doesn't put it quite that strongly. I've spoken with him \nand he considers Wolfe to be at least one of the best in SciFi)\n\nThe fact is that this is Wolfean fiction. He's often categorized with other \nNew Science Fiction types like LeGuin and Tiptree and Dick but he's really \nnothing like them craftsman-wise. He had moderate success with FHoC, much \nless with Peace, far less with Devil in the Forest, and then he blew the \ndoors off with New Sun. It's probably agreed that \"Free Live Free\" and \n\"There Are Doors\" and \"Castleview\" and \"Pandora\" are not as riveting as \nSoldier of the Mist and Solider of Arete. Solider of Sidon was less popular \nas well IMO because Wolfe was dealing with less popularly familiar mythology \n(African). I haven't read Pirate Freedom, but based on the lack of \ndiscussion about it here, it probably doesn't have the universal appeal of \nsome others.\n\"A poet is a man who manages, in a lifetime of standing out in \nthunderstorms, to be struck by lightning five or six times.\" Randall Jarrell\n\nOn the other hand, IMO, Wolfe's subtlety has unexpected effects on the \nreader. On first read, I thought AEG was a decent, but unspecial Wolfean \nnovel in the style of SciFi pulp. I thought I understood it. It was only \nlater that I realized that the puzzles themselves --let alone the answers-- \nhad gone right over my head.\n\nMany people find Long Sun accessible and satisfying because they think it \nhas a generally reliable narrator and the narrative is not so occulted. They \nare wrong. I think the most valid criticism of Short Sun (I don't agree with \nit) is that it's very well crafted but it's just tooooo Wolfean: It's a \nbridge too far. Yet, many of the puzzles in Long Sun that readers didn't \nknow were puzzles are resolved in Short Sun--can ONLY be resolved in the \nShort Sun--and the answers go right over those readers heads because they \nweren't looking for answers. So is that a defect in the books?\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<49E4B3CF.2010205@colby.edu>", "from": { "name": "Fernando Q. Gouvêa", "address": "fqgouvea at colby.edu" }, "date": "2009-04-14T16:03:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Weekly blog links", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I don't know. I remember when reviewers used to complain that \nWolfe was too difficult (for example, an infamous review by Orson Scott \nCard). There's no doubt he reacted to that and tried to be more \naccessible at times. For me, however, it's not a matter of decline over \ntime, but of variability. No author can hit the jackpot always. Fifth \nHead, Peace, New Sun were roughly contemporaneous, after all, with Devil \nin a Forest, Free Live Free, There Are Doors, Castleview.\n\nTo my taste, Castleview and Pandora are distinctly weaker than Pirate \nFreedom or An Evil Guest.\n\nSimilarly with the shorter work. Wolfe seems to have weighted his \"Best\" \nvolume heavily towards the older stuff, but I'm not convinced that the \nnewer stories are not as good. Different, certainly. But \"Ziggurat\", \nsay, is as good a story as \"The Death of Doctor Island\", and perhaps \nbetter. For one thing, it's far more complex morally.\n\nFernando" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "How many of you agree that the Wolfe of Fifth Head, Peace, New Sun,\nEndangered Species (partially), and Death of Dr. Island and OS and OS\nis not even recognizably the same author as that of Pirate Freedom, An\nEvil Guest, or the Short Sun? (Shared concerns, yes. The quality of\nexecution, however, is more like that of a bad imitator.)" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "=============================================================\nFernando Q. Gouvea \nCarter Professor of Mathematics \nColby College Editor, MAA FOCUS\n5836 Mayflower Hill Editor, MAA Reviews\nWaterville, ME 04901 http://mathdl.maa.org/mathDL/19/\nhttp://www.colby.edu/~fqgouvea\n\nWhat makes the universe so hard to comprehend is that there's nothing to compare it with." } ] }, { "message_id": "<29AD5A57F23E479D8B2D5E85B3F96649@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-14T16:09:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Weekly blog links", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's possible Wolfe spent more time editing the Book of the New Sun\nthan most of his other works - I remember being very impressed that he\nhad all four books in draft form before publishing the first." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm convinced that Wolfe must have had \"The Book of the Short Sun\" \nwell-plotted before \"Nightside of the Long Sun\" was published. New Sun was \nconceived as a single novel. It was only the business of publishing that \ncaused it to be broken into four.\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<8653.67.142.130.22.1239726599.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-04-14T16:29:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Weekly blog links", "in_reply_to": "<37bfbeb60904140837t25363860i2ca3281edcc7c4ee@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No doubt about Chomsky.\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To verify my intuition that this was some type of phonetic attempt at\n\"wanker,\" I searched and saw that someone on another forum calling\nhimself \"brunians\" applied this epithet to Chomsky, thus verifying\nanother intuition I had.\n\n\n\n\n\nOn Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 10:17 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think it was an appropriate question: unfortunately, after I wrote it\nI\nwrote another sentence, which you elide, wherein I wondered if Jon was a\nouanquerre, which remark I regretted.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 12:32 AM, ? wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Josh: So why don't you like the book, Jon? I understand from your\narticle\nthat you don't like it: that is abundantly obvious. But I think a\nreview\nof\nthis nature would be more useful if you would include a paragraph -\neven\nhalf a paragraph - where you give your reasons for not liking it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Jon: I thought I did in the post, but here it is again: I think the\nbook\n(and several others) rely on the author's well-earned reputation for\nsubtlety to mask or adorn what are essentially undeveloped\npot-boilers. The time-travel aspect of Pirate Freedom illustrates\nthis\nnicely, I think." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Josh: i want to apologize for my last remark, which I was very wrong\nto\npass.\nYou are entitled to your opinion, of course, I was at the tail end of\na\nfrazzled day.\nI don't agree with you about Pirate Freedom, but these couple of\nsentences\ndo make more clear your problems with the book. ?Again, my apologies." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "FWIW I think it was an appropriate question. It seems I'm not the only\none\nwho thought so.\n\nJ.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<14214.67.142.130.22.1239727199.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-04-14T16:39:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Weekly blog links", "in_reply_to": "<8653.67.142.130.22.1239726599.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "By the way, as far as I know 'ouanquerre' is an alternate spelling of\nwanker. Sort of like 'buncombe' (for bunkum). I certainly didn't invent\nthe word. Henry Mencken invented buncombe, maybe ouanquerre too.\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No doubt about Chomsky.\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "To verify my intuition that this was some type of phonetic attempt at\n\"wanker,\" I searched and saw that someone on another forum calling\nhimself \"brunians\" applied this epithet to Chomsky, thus verifying\nanother intuition I had.\n\n\n\n\n\nOn Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 10:17 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I think it was an appropriate question: unfortunately, after I wrote it\nI\nwrote another sentence, which you elide, wherein I wondered if Jon was\na\nouanquerre, which remark I regretted.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 12:32 AM, ? wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "Josh: So why don't you like the book, Jon? I understand from your\narticle\nthat you don't like it: that is abundantly obvious. But I think a\nreview\nof\nthis nature would be more useful if you would include a paragraph -\neven\nhalf a paragraph - where you give your reasons for not liking it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Jon: I thought I did in the post, but here it is again: I think the\nbook\n(and several others) rely on the author's well-earned reputation for\nsubtlety to mask or adorn what are essentially undeveloped\npot-boilers. The time-travel aspect of Pirate Freedom illustrates\nthis\nnicely, I think." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Josh: i want to apologize for my last remark, which I was very wrong\nto\npass.\nYou are entitled to your opinion, of course, I was at the tail end of\na\nfrazzled day.\nI don't agree with you about Pirate Freedom, but these couple of\nsentences\ndo make more clear your problems with the book. ?Again, my apologies." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "FWIW I think it was an appropriate question. It seems I'm not the only\none\nwho thought so.\n\nJ.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<37bfbeb60904140946n72c81077s36bf016ef34891a4@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jonathan Goodwin", "address": "joncgoodwin at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-14T16:46:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Weekly blog links", "in_reply_to": "<49E4B3CF.2010205@colby.edu>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree with you about \"The Ziggurat,\" but I also think _There Are\nDoors_ is a much better book than the two most recent novels. I also\ndon't think that Pandora or Castleview is encumbered by unnecessary\n(or, \"inorganic\") Wolfeanism in the way I thought AEG or PF was, which\nwould fit the audience/editorial expectation hypothesis.\n\n2009/4/14 \"Fernando Q. Gouv?a\" :" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, I don't know. I remember when reviewers used to complain that Wolfe\nwas too difficult (for example, an infamous review by Orson Scott Card).\nThere's no doubt he reacted to that and tried to be more accessible at\ntimes. For me, however, it's not a matter of decline over time, but of\nvariability. No author can hit the jackpot always. Fifth Head, Peace, New\nSun were roughly contemporaneous, after all, with Devil in a Forest, Free\nLive Free, There Are Doors, Castleview.\n\nTo my taste, Castleview and Pandora are distinctly weaker than Pirate\nFreedom or An Evil Guest.\n\nSimilarly with the shorter work. Wolfe seems to have weighted his \"Best\"\nvolume heavily towards the older stuff, but I'm not convinced that the newer\nstories are not as good. Different, certainly. But \"Ziggurat\", say, is as\ngood a story as \"The Death of Doctor Island\", and perhaps better. For one\nthing, it's far more complex morally.\n\nFernando" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "How many of you agree that the Wolfe of Fifth Head, Peace, New Sun,\nEndangered Species (partially), and Death of Dr. Island and OS and OS\nis not even recognizably the same author as that of Pirate Freedom, An\nEvil Guest, or the Short Sun? (Shared concerns, yes. The quality of\nexecution, however, is more like that of a bad imitator.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--\n=============================================================\nFernando Q. Gouvea ? ? ? ? ? ? Carter Professor of Mathematics — Colby\nCollege ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Editor, MAA FOCUS\n5836 Mayflower Hill ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Editor, MAA Reviews\nWaterville, ME 04901 ? ? ? ? ? ? ?http://mathdl.maa.org/mathDL/19/\nhttp://www.colby.edu/~fqgouvea\n\nWhat makes the universe so hard to comprehend is that there's nothing to\ncompare it with.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<39ed084f0904141204y1b94e16cwa75cc407dcc8f8f7@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Groves", "address": "matthewalangroves at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-14T19:04:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Weekly blog links", "in_reply_to": "<5728.67.142.130.29.1239722254.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 10:17 AM, (repeatedly) wrote:\nouanquerre" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is this some sort of modish spelling of \"wanker\"?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20090414191147.GA31740@broggs.org>", "from": { "name": "Jeffrey Brent McBeth", "address": "mcbeth at broggs.org" }, "date": "2009-04-14T19:11:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Weekly blog links", "in_reply_to": "<39ed084f0904141204y1b94e16cwa75cc407dcc8f8f7@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 02:04:15PM -0500, Matthew Groves wrote:\nOn Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 10:17 AM, (repeatedly) wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "ouanquerre" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is this some sort of modish spelling of \"wanker\"?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yup, so popular, that google shows him and one other guy using it.\n\nJeff" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "----------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\"The man who does not read good books has no advantage over \n the man who cannot read them.\"\n -- Mark Twain\n----------------------------------------------------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<13080.72.171.0.145.1239736466.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-04-14T19:14:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Weekly blog links", "in_reply_to": "<39ed084f0904141204y1b94e16cwa75cc407dcc8f8f7@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 10:17 AM, (repeatedly)\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "ouanquerre" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is this some sort of modish spelling of \"wanker\"?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's not particularly modish. It may be very old.\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<49E503EF.8030305@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-04-14T21:45:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Weekly blog links", "in_reply_to": "<13080.72.171.0.145.1239736466.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No doubt you are right, Josh. I'm sure it's Occitan or Languedoc. That \nwould explain the paucity of Google hits. ------------------------------ \nMessage: 7 Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 15:14:26 -0400 (EDT) From: \nbrunians at brunians.org Subject: Re: (urth) Weekly blog links To: \"The \nUrth Mailing List\" Message-ID: \n<13080.72.171.0.145.1239736466.squirrel at brunians.org> Content-Type: \ntext/plain;charset=iso-8859-1" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 10:17 AM, (repeatedly)\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "ouanquerre" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Is this some sort of modish spelling of \"wanker\"?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's not particularly modish. It may be very old." } ] }, { "message_id": "<2763.67.142.130.31.1239750810.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-04-14T23:13:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Weekly blog links", "in_reply_to": "<49E503EF.8030305@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Possibly so.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No doubt you are right, Josh. I'm sure it's Occitan or Languedoc. That\nwould explain the paucity of Google hits. ------------------------------\nMessage: 7 Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 15:14:26 -0400 (EDT) From:\nbrunians at brunians.org Subject: Re: (urth) Weekly blog links To: \"The\nUrth Mailing List\" Message-ID:\n<13080.72.171.0.145.1239736466.squirrel at brunians.org> Content-Type:\ntext/plain;charset=iso-8859-1" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 10:17 AM, \n(repeatedly)\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "ouanquerre" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Is this some sort of modish spelling of \"wanker\"?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's not particularly modish. It may be very old.\n\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 090414-0, 04/14/2009\nTested on: 4/14/2009 5:45:21 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<842424.10805.qm@web32406.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-04-15T01:55:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Weekly blog links", "in_reply_to": "<2763.67.142.130.31.1239750810.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Doggerel\nwww.don-doggett.blogspot.com" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Many people find Long Sun accessible and satisfying because\nthey think it has a generally reliable narrator and the\nnarrative is not so occulted. They are wrong. I think the\nmost valid criticism of Short Sun (I don't agree with it) is\nthat it's very well crafted but it's just tooooo Wolfean:\nIt's a bridge too far. Yet, many of the puzzles in Long Sun\nthat readers didn't know were puzzles are resolved in Short\nSun--can ONLY be resolved in the Short Sun--and the answers\ngo right over those readers heads because they weren't\nlooking for answers. So is that a defect in the books?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree, and I would go a step farther and say that LS and SS are really one novel. SS is basically a continuation of the epilogue in LS and doesn't stand at all on its own. And LS is brilliantly written (better than New Sun, really) but the plot is unsatisfying without the revelations of SS.\n\nDon\n\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<648691.66443.qm@web81408.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Stuart Hamm", "address": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2009-04-15T02:11:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Weekly blog links", "in_reply_to": "<842424.10805.qm@web32406.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree FWIW\nI am a big fan of the short stories (earlier than later), and TBotNS got me hooked for life...but for my \"Desert Island \" book I would take? Long Sun and Short Sun as 1 book and be happy to read it over and over and over and over and....\n\n??????????-\\\\~S~//- \n???? Skype? stuart.hamm\nmyspace.com/stuhamm\n? ??? stuarthamm.net\n\n\n--- On Tue, 4/14/09, don doggett wrote:\nFrom: don doggett \nSubject: Re: (urth) Weekly blog links\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Tuesday, April 14, 2009, 6:55 PM\n\n\nDoggerel\nwww.don-doggett.blogspot.com" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Many people find Long Sun accessible and satisfying because\nthey think it has a generally reliable narrator and the\nnarrative is not so occulted. They are wrong. I think the\nmost valid criticism of Short Sun (I don't agree with it) is\nthat it's very well crafted but it's just tooooo Wolfean:\nIt's a bridge too far. Yet, many of the puzzles in Long Sun\nthat readers didn't know were puzzles are resolved in Short\nSun--can ONLY be resolved in the Short Sun--and the answers\ngo right over those readers heads because they weren't\nlooking for answers. So is that a defect in the books?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree, and I would go a step farther and say that LS and SS are really one\nnovel. SS is basically a continuation of the epilogue in LS and doesn't\nstand at all on its own. And LS is brilliantly written (better than New Sun,\nreally) but the plot is unsatisfying without the revelations of SS.\n\nDon\n\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0904141921r576e7a1akecfb658c3970c81@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-15T02:21:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Weekly blog links", "in_reply_to": "<842424.10805.qm@web32406.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 9:55 PM, don doggett wrote:\n\n\nDoggerel\nwww.don-doggett.blogspot.com" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Many people find Long Sun accessible and satisfying because\nthey think it has a generally reliable narrator and the\nnarrative is not so occulted. They are wrong. I think the\nmost valid criticism of Short Sun (I don't agree with it) is\nthat it's very well crafted but it's just tooooo Wolfean:\nIt's a bridge too far. Yet, many of the puzzles in Long Sun\nthat readers didn't know were puzzles are resolved in Short\nSun--can ONLY be resolved in the Short Sun--and the answers\ngo right over those readers heads because they weren't\nlooking for answers. So is that a defect in the books?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree, and I would go a step farther and say that LS and SS are really\none novel. SS is basically a continuation of the epilogue in LS and doesn't\nstand at all on its own. And LS is brilliantly written (better than New Sun,\nreally) but the plot is unsatisfying without the revelations of SS." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think that Long Sun stands just fine on its own, but is certainly better\nwith Short Sun as well. Short Sun is really Gene's treat for his biggest\nfans, no one else could read it.\n\nI do agree that Nettle is apparently the best writer of Wolfe's characters." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Don\n\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Allan Anderson", "address": "rubel at goosemoon.org" }, "date": "2009-04-15T04:19:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Weekly blog links", "in_reply_to": "<37bfbeb60904132218j370acb6cp2fd099e318ac7fa8@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interesting write-up, Jon. Although I found a fun blend of salty \nadventure and mystery in Pirate Freedom, I can sympathize with your \nfinding it dry for a pirate story and pointlessly convoluted when you \ntry to poke behind the curtains.\n\nBut it has some other virtues! There's the neat sort of breakdown of \nthe pirate myth at the hands of the modern narrator. There's the \ntension between lawlessness and law (political, moral, violent) -- the \nfine balance between consensual governance and rule by intimidation on \nthe ships.\n\nWhile you found the puzzles and mysteries disappointing, my biggest \ncomplaint would be about the barren characters. They all seemed like \none-dimensional puppets dancing around Chris. They start off full of \nflavor, like the liberated slave Azuka, but then never seem to develop \npast the first taste. Even if it's done for effect, showing the limits \nof the narrator, it's still disappointing.\n\nI don't blame him for knocking off a couple of shorter, lighter works, \nthough. And I'm looking forward to teasing out the puzzles of An Evil \nGuest (just about halfway through now, and enjoying the style and \ndialog)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Apr 13, 2009, at 10:18 PM, Jonathan Goodwin wrote:\nI believe I came to that conclusion a few years ago myself.\n\nI recently made some disappointed comments on Pirate Freedom:\n\nhttp://www.jgoodwin.net/?p=647\n\nHow many of you agree that the Wolfe of Fifth Head, Peace, New Sun,\nEndangered Species (partially), and Death of Dr. Island and OS and OS\nis not even recognizably the same author as that of Pirate Freedom, An\nEvil Guest, or the Short Sun? (Shared concerns, yes. The quality of\nexecution, however, is more like that of a bad imitator.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There are quite a few advocates (including Dave Tallman on the \nwiki) of the\ntheory that the narrator is himself a puppet, dismissed by this \ncommentator.\nI don't buy it myself either, buit it is slightly nagging...\n\nbest,\n\nMo\n\n\n# ~ # ~ #\n\nWolfeWiki now at:\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<44fb53d10904142138g185f8496x53afe6079c25a3bd@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-15T04:38:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Weekly blog links", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0904141921r576e7a1akecfb658c3970c81@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 10:21 PM, John Watkins wrote:\n\n\nI think that Long Sun stands just fine on its own, but is certainly better\nwith Short Sun as well. ?Short Sun is really Gene's treat for his biggest\nfans, no one else could read it.\nI do agree that Nettle is apparently the best writer of Wolfe's characters." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Don" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Short Sun frustrates me a bit; it has some wonderful moments like the\nsewers on Green, and it's nice to see certain returning characters,\nbut I think Wolfe overdoes (or his characters overdo) some aspects of\nthe book. For example, did we really need all that Scottish-like\ndialect from Pig? And I sometimes wish Wolfe would cut back on the\nlong dialogues about How Things Work - Taluses, ships, etc.\n\nPerhaps I should reread Short Sun - There are parts of it I like just\nas much if not more than New Sun, and that is very high praise from\nme.\n\nI liked An Evil Guest and Pirate Freedom, but both seem to me to be\nminor Wolfe. I'd take Castleview over either of them, though I'm\nrather biased, as I'm a great fan of Arthurian lit.\n\n-Matt" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49E5CC90.5050900@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-04-15T12:01:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Weekly blog links", "in_reply_to": "<44fb53d10904142138g185f8496x53afe6079c25a3bd@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I find BotNS has a comic aspect that has receded with each Sun novel since. Almost every scene in which Severian deals with other people is either a hilarious set piece or a riff on a well-worn tale: Severian in the catacombs with Ultan, Severian in bed with Baldanders, Severian on stage with Dr Talos. Shadow keeps me in a constant state of chuckling.\n\nI miss this tone in the later books. Silk's tale sometimes has a sly sense of humor, but SS seems to have almost no sense of humor at all, as far as I recall. I assume this is partly because a comedy of manners is hard to pull off when the society itself is formless and the \"manners\" unspecified, as among the isolated farms of Blue. Or else it's just harder to detect.\nIt may also be because Wolfe started to treat his subject more seriously, if he did do so.\n\nBut another likely factor is that BotNS was written with dozens, if not hundreds, of literary predecessors in mind, and fantasy and satire are rarely far apart. Urth's society is recognizable; the Whorl's is not, or at least not so readily. And the later books' antecedents seems to lie less in Chesterton and Vance than in older myth. IMHO." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 19:11:56 -0700 (PDT)\nFrom: Stuart Hamm \nSubject: Re: (urth) Weekly blog links\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: <648691.66443.qm at web81408.mail.mud.yahoo.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nI agree FWIW\nI am a big fan of the short stories (earlier than later), and TBotNS got me hooked for life...but for my \"Desert Island \" book I would take? Long Sun and Short Sun as 1 book and be happy to read it over and over and over and over and....\n\n??????????-\\\\~S~//- \n???? Skype? stuart.hamm\nmyspace.com/stuhamm\n? ??? stuarthamm.net\n\n\n--- On Tue, 4/14/09, don doggett wrote:\nFrom: don doggett \nSubject: Re: (urth) Weekly blog links" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0904150512q4842eaf4w5ea9b8cad32defbb@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-15T12:12:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Weekly blog links", "in_reply_to": "<49E5CC90.5050900@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oreb remains funny throughout, but I agree--there's little humor in Short\nSun. It's a melancholy work." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 8:01 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nI find BotNS has a comic aspect that has receded with each Sun novel since.\nAlmost every scene in which Severian deals with other people is either a\nhilarious set piece or a riff on a well-worn tale: Severian in the catacombs\nwith Ultan, Severian in bed with Baldanders, Severian on stage with Dr\nTalos. Shadow keeps me in a constant state of chuckling.\n\nI miss this tone in the later books. Silk's tale sometimes has a sly sense\nof humor, but SS seems to have almost no sense of humor at all, as far as I\nrecall. I assume this is partly because a comedy of manners is hard to pull\noff when the society itself is formless and the \"manners\" unspecified, as\namong the isolated farms of Blue. Or else it's just harder to detect.\nIt may also be because Wolfe started to treat his subject more seriously,\nif he did do so.\n\nBut another likely factor is that BotNS was written with dozens, if not\nhundreds, of literary predecessors in mind, and fantasy and satire are\nrarely far apart. Urth's society is recognizable; the Whorl's is not, or at\nleast not so readily. And the later books' antecedents seems to lie less in\nChesterton and Vance than in older myth. IMHO.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 19:11:56 -0700 (PDT)\nFrom: Stuart Hamm \nSubject: Re: (urth) Weekly blog links\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: <648691.66443.qm at web81408.mail.mud.yahoo.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nI agree FWIW\nI am a big fan of the short stories (earlier than later), and TBotNS got me\nhooked for life...but for my \"Desert Island \" book I would take? Long Sun\nand Short Sun as 1 book and be happy to read it over and over and over and\nover and....\n\n??????????-\\\\~S~//- ???? Skype? stuart.hamm\nmyspace.com/stuhamm\n? ??? stuarthamm.net\n\n\n--- On Tue, 4/14/09, don doggett wrote:\nFrom: don doggett \nSubject: Re: (urth) Weekly blog links" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Transentient", "address": "transentient at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-15T12:27:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Weekly blog links", "in_reply_to": "<44fb53d10904142138g185f8496x53afe6079c25a3bd@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Apr 15, 2009, at 12:38 AM, Matthew Keeley wrote:\n And I sometimes wish Wolfe would cut back on the\nlong dialogues about How Things Work - Taluses, ships, etc." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No! You cannot have this. ;/" } ] }, { "message_id": "<44fb53d10904150611r44bad1c7p27f8225dd0b10b02@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-15T13:11:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Weekly blog links", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 8:27 AM, Transentient wrote:\n\nOn Apr 15, 2009, at 12:38 AM, Matthew Keeley wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "?And I sometimes wish Wolfe would cut back on the\nlong dialogues about How Things Work - Taluses, ships, etc." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No! You cannot have this. ;/\n_______________________________________________" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I didn't think I'd get it. And I do like it sometimes - I'm actually\nfairly fond of the talus section, for example, or the section on\nlibrarian recruitment in Shadow.\n\n-Matt" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20090415135056.JBGI4619.eastrmmtao102.cox.net@eastrmimpo02.cox.net>", "from": { "name": "James B. Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2009-04-15T13:50:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Weekly blog links", "in_reply_to": "<37bfbeb60904132244o8478e25gbe5057996234d13e@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "At 12:44 AM 4/14/2009, you wrote:\n\nHow many of you agree that the Wolfe of Fifth Head, Peace, New Sun,\nEndangered Species (partially), and Death of Dr. Island and OS and OS\nis not even recognizably the same author as that of Pirate Freedom, An\nEvil Guest, or the Short Sun? (Shared concerns, yes. The quality of\nexecution, however, is more like that of a bad imitator.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Remember that The Devil in a Forest is an earlier work, and also a \njuvenile (as Pirate is for young adults). Also, remember that Wolfe \nhas always written transformative homages to other writers, and in a \nlighter vein (as Evil Guest): I think of the early Big Fat Robot Nero \nWolfe detective stories. At the same time, I don't think a writer \nnearing 80 is going to embark on a project as immense as the New Sun quartet.\n\nNutria\n\n\nJames B. Jordan\nDirector, Biblical Horizons\nBox 1096\nNiceville, FL 32588\nhttp://www.biblicalhorizons.com " } ] }, { "message_id": "<49E5E97E.4030808@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-04-15T14:04:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Weekly blog links", "in_reply_to": "<20090415135056.JBGI4619.eastrmmtao102.cox.net@eastrmimpo02.cox.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "True. And Oreb's comic relief tends to highlight that melancholia, at least in retrospect.\n\nMuch of the tone in BotNS comes from Severian himself, of course, and he experienced everything he narrates. The later narrators are, for me, harder to get a grip on, especially since they are less settled in terms of identity. Also, Nettle narrates from a distant (and unexalted) perspective." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 08:12:04 -0400\nFrom: John Watkins \nSubject: Re: (urth) Weekly blog links" } ] }, { "message_id": "<78777252-67CC-4A69-80DE-55CA120A5E97@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-04-15T14:17:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Weekly blog links", "in_reply_to": "<49E5CC90.5050900@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Apr 15, 2009, at 7:01 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nI find BotNS has a comic aspect that has receded with each Sun novel \nsince. Almost every scene in which Severian deals with other people \nis either a hilarious set piece or a riff on a well-worn tale: \nSeverian in the catacombs with Ultan, Severian in bed with \nBaldanders, Severian on stage with Dr Talos. Shadow keeps me in a \nconstant state of chuckling." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "_Moby-Dick_ works like that too. The scene with Baldanders at the inn \nis, of course, a direct homage.\n\nAlso, if you're looking at me in confusion, yes, _Moby-Dick_ is \nfunny. Often really, really funny. I recommend it.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<59876BEFC0B944658A78321287763F32@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-15T15:05:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Weekly blog links", "in_reply_to": "<49E5CC90.5050900@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff:\nBut another likely factor is that BotNS was written with dozens,\nif not hundreds, of literary predecessors in mind, and fantasy\nand satire are rarely far apart. Urth's society is recognizable;\nthe Whorl's is not, or at least not so readily. And the later books' \nantecedents seems to lie less in Chesterton\nand Vance than in older myth. IMHO." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, the older myths are certainly close to the surface in SS, as they are \nin LS. But for literary references, I recommend you read ER Burrough's \n\"Mars\" series and Lan Wright's \"The Last Hope of Earth\" (aka \"The Creeping \nShroud\"). Also, Wright's \"Pictures of Pavanne\" has some rather obvious \nhomages in LS/SS. I haven't read anything else by Wright, but it wouldn't \nsurprise me. Also, Dan'l recently identified Heinlein's \"Orphans of the Sky\" \nas an identifiable reference. \"Pinocchio\" is an important source. Yarboro's \n\"Hyacinths\" about about artists who dream stories for televised \nentertainment might have been on Wolfe's mind. Fleming's \"Brazilian \nAdventure\" is a source for LS. I haven't re-read it since reading SS, but it \nwouldn't be unlikely since it is about a boat ride up the Amazon river.\n\nThere are almost certainly more. SS has an aroma of many secret flavorings \nwhich I cannot identify.\n\nJ.\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0904150818p6e33d7a4gecd54f9eb64a33e5@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-15T15:18:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Weekly blog links", "in_reply_to": "<59876BEFC0B944658A78321287763F32@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Undoubtedly an inadvertent omission--SS has aspects of Lewis's Ransom books." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 11:05 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But another likely factor is that BotNS was written with dozens,\nif not hundreds, of literary predecessors in mind, and fantasy\nand satire are rarely far apart. Urth's society is recognizable;\nthe Whorl's is not, or at least not so readily. And the later books'\nantecedents seems to lie less in Chesterton\nand Vance than in older myth. IMHO." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, the older myths are certainly close to the surface in SS, as they are\nin LS. But for literary references, I recommend you read ER Burrough's\n\"Mars\" series and Lan Wright's \"The Last Hope of Earth\" (aka \"The Creeping\nShroud\"). Also, Wright's \"Pictures of Pavanne\" has some rather obvious\nhomages in LS/SS. I haven't read anything else by Wright, but it wouldn't\nsurprise me. Also, Dan'l recently identified Heinlein's \"Orphans of the Sky\"\nas an identifiable reference. \"Pinocchio\" is an important source. Yarboro's\n\"Hyacinths\" about about artists who dream stories for televised\nentertainment might have been on Wolfe's mind. Fleming's \"Brazilian\nAdventure\" is a source for LS. I haven't re-read it since reading SS, but it\nwouldn't be unlikely since it is about a boat ride up the Amazon river.\n\nThere are almost certainly more. SS has an aroma of many secret flavorings\nwhich I cannot identify.\n\nJ.\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49E600AA.9090904@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-04-15T15:43:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Weekly blog links", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0904150818p6e33d7a4gecd54f9eb64a33e5@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh, Moby-Dick is hilarious! I wouldn't have laughed at it 20 years ago, but now I see it. The characters are over the top, and the long didactic sections---since we're talking about Wolfe's occasional lectures--are very funny." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 6\nDate: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 09:17:40 -0500\nFrom: Adam Thornton \nSubject: Re: (urth) Weekly blog links\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: <78777252-67CC-4A69-80DE-55CA120A5E97 at io.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes\n\n\nOn Apr 15, 2009, at 7:01 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I find BotNS has a comic aspect that has receded with each Sun novel \nsince. Almost every scene in which Severian deals with other people \nis either a hilarious set piece or a riff on a well-worn tale: \nSeverian in the catacombs with Ultan, Severian in bed with \nBaldanders, Severian on stage with Dr Talos. Shadow keeps me in a \nconstant state of chuckling." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n\n_Moby-Dick_ works like that too. The scene with Baldanders at the inn \nis, of course, a direct homage.\n\nAlso, if you're looking at me in confusion, yes, _Moby-Dick_ is \nfunny. Often really, really funny. I recommend it.\n\nAdam\n\n\n------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<648506.37566.qm@web50711.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-04-15T17:07:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Weekly blog links", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0904150818p6e33d7a4gecd54f9eb64a33e5@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Wed, 4/15/09, John Watkins wrote:\nUndoubtedly an inadvertent omission--SS has aspects of\nLewis's Ransom books." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\n\nI'd be interested if you'd point those out (or some, if there\nare too many).\n\nMy impression of /Pirate Freedom/ is what James Jordan confirmed--\nit was a YA book. The time travel is obviously necessary if\nyou want to have a contemporary (or quasi-modern) become a\nPirate of the Caribbean. Brother Ignacio's being the older\nChris was predictable for someone who's read a lot of sf, and\nmaybe unnecesary--Chris can try to go back just by going to\nthe monastery in Cuba, without knowing who he's going to turn\ninto.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0904151015q64f6ebdflbb707ebf5d17c2df@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-15T17:15:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Weekly blog links", "in_reply_to": "<648506.37566.qm@web50711.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The obvious one, to me, is that the series is a trilogy set on three\ndifferent worlds. The first is set on an old world and deals with a human\nbeing coming into contact with that world's native race, which is tall and\nslender in appearance and which is \"better and wiser\" than humanity. He\ndiscovers that the religion of this alien species is a cognate, at least in\nsome aspects, with his own. The second book deals, in part, with that human\nbeing's subsequent adventures on a jungle world in which he is wound unto\ndeath and miraculously restored (albeit Lewis retconned the severity of\nRansom's wound a little.) The third is set, in part, on the narrator's home\nworld.\n\nI would also hazard that Ransom's shift in personality from the Tolkienesque\nhero of Perelandra to the Williamsesque Christian/Arthurian figure of That\nHideous Strength may have intrigued Wolfe--a flaw in Lewis's books, Wolfe\nmakes the shifting nature of his narrator the strength and core theme of his\nown." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 1:07 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\n\n--- On Wed, 4/15/09, John Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Undoubtedly an inadvertent omission--SS has aspects of\nLewis's Ransom books." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...\n\nI'd be interested if you'd point those out (or some, if there\nare too many).\n\nMy impression of /Pirate Freedom/ is what James Jordan confirmed--\nit was a YA book. The time travel is obviously necessary if\nyou want to have a contemporary (or quasi-modern) become a\nPirate of the Caribbean. Brother Ignacio's being the older\nChris was predictable for someone who's read a lot of sf, and\nmaybe unnecesary--Chris can try to go back just by going to\nthe monastery in Cuba, without knowing who he's going to turn\ninto.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49E6173F.2080908@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-04-15T17:19:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Weekly blog links", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0904151015q64f6ebdflbb707ebf5d17c2df@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "John, I think you have a thesis." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 13:15:06 -0400\nFrom: John Watkins \nSubject: Re: (urth) Weekly blog links\nTo: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com, The Urth Mailing List\n\t\nMessage-ID:\n\t<93d4039f0904151015q64f6ebdflbb707ebf5d17c2df at mail.gmail.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nThe obvious one, to me, is that the series is a trilogy set on three\ndifferent worlds. The first is set on an old world and deals with a human\nbeing coming into contact with that world's native race, which is tall and\nslender in appearance and which is \"better and wiser\" than humanity. He\ndiscovers that the religion of this alien species is a cognate, at least in\nsome aspects, with his own. The second book deals, in part, with that human\nbeing's subsequent adventures on a jungle world in which he is wound unto\ndeath and miraculously restored (albeit Lewis retconned the severity of\nRansom's wound a little.) The third is set, in part, on the narrator's home\nworld.\n\nI would also hazard that Ransom's shift in personality from the Tolkienesque\nhero of Perelandra to the Williamsesque Christian/Arthurian figure of That\nHideous Strength may have intrigued Wolfe--a flaw in Lewis's books, Wolfe\nmakes the shifting nature of his narrator the strength and core theme of his\nown." } ] }, { "message_id": "<925508.79653.qm@web50710.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-04-16T03:26:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Weekly blog links", "in_reply_to": "<44fb53d10904142138g185f8496x53afe6079c25a3bd@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Tue, 4/14/09, Matthew Keeley wrote:\nFrom: Matthew Keeley \nSubject: Re: (urth) Weekly blog links\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Tuesday, April 14, 2009, 10:38 PM\nOn Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 10:21 PM, John Watkins\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think that Long Sun stands just fine on its own, but\nis certainly better\nwith Short Sun as well. ?Short Sun is really\nGene's treat for his biggest\nfans, no one else could read it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'll go along with that.\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Short Sun frustrates me a bit; it has some wonderful\nmoments like the\nsewers on Green, and it's nice to see certain returning\ncharacters,\nbut I think Wolfe overdoes (or his characters overdo) some\naspects of\nthe book." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think he overdid the returning characters, too." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "For example, did we really need all that\nScottish-like dialect from Pig?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No. Nor did we need the mechanical verb-at-the-end\nsentences in Dorp. Oreb and the catachrest in LS were\ncute, but gimmicks like these strike me as going too far\nto make your characters sound different.\n\nAnd we didn't need LS to consist entirely of dramatic\nscenes, in the sense of \"The Cat in the Starfleet's\nAttic\". I'm glad that in NS and SS, our narrators get to\nruminate occasionally." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And I sometimes wish Wolfe would cut back on the\nlong dialogues about How Things Work - Taluses, ships, etc." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Me too, whether I can have it or not. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps I should reread Short Sun - There are parts of it I\nlike just\nas much if not more than New Sun, and that is very high\npraise from me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\n\nFor me, Horn's relationships with Sinew and Krait are among\nthe best things Wolfe has ever done.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n " } ] } ] }