{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5410", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5410, "subject": "PF as YA", "messages": 46, "voices": 22, "first": "2009-04-15T21:50:28+00:00", "last": "2009-04-25T00:25:40+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<37bfbeb60904151450l562f1efap639973f799cb6aaa@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jonathan Goodwin", "address": "joncgoodwin at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-15T21:50:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) PF as YA", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For those of you who suggested that Pirate Freedom was a YA novel,\ndoes your definition of that genre include an element of didacticism?\nIf so, what lessons would you a young person take away from the book?\nThough this is a disputable claim, I find it plausible that younger\nreaders are more apt to identify uncritically with the protagonists of\nbooks they read. Another generalization is that writers of YA fiction\ntry to create sympathetic (and perhaps even instructive) protagonists\nfor these identity-seeking young readers. I find it difficult to\nbelieve that Wolfe intends Christopher to be such a character. At the\nsame time, however, was there any doubt in your minds that Christopher\nas American priest is intended to be sympathetic in his current\nactions and beliefs?\n\nIn an interview with Peter Wright published in Shadows of the New Sun\n(Liverpool UP: 2007, p. 143, viewable via google books), Wolfe says in\nan interview that There Are Doors came closest in execution to his\noriginal conception as any of his work. I wonder how PF would measure\non that scale. (He also mentions on that page his bafflement at the\nunexplained/unexplainable strong reactions that readers have to his\nwork.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "JBarach at aol.com", "address": "jbarach at aol.com" }, "date": "2009-04-15T22:15:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) PF as YA", "in_reply_to": "<37bfbeb60904151450l562f1efap639973f799cb6aaa@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nJon writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "For those of you who suggested that Pirate Freedom\nwas a YA novel, does your definition of that genre\ninclude an element of didacticism?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI'm baffled. Why should a YA novel include \"an element of didacticism\"? \nSome YA novels have that, I suppose, but hardly all of them. Read, for \ninstance, Megan Whalen Turner's The Thief (and sequels). Or, going a bit \nolder, John Bellairs' novels, which are entirely fun and not at all didactic. \nI don't know if you'd say there's a didactic element in, for instance, N. \nD. Wilson's recent 100 Cupboards and its sequel Dandelion Fire.\n \nIf you find a didactic element in these novels, I suppose you could make \njust as good a case for saying that adult novels include \"an element of \ndidacticism.\" In fact, it would be easy to make that case for Flannery \nO'Connor or Walker Percy or G. K. Chesterton or C. S. Lewis. Or Gene Wolfe, whose \nbooks frequently (and especially recently) seem designed to teach wisdom \nand spur the reader (as well as the characters) toward maturity. That's \nsomething you see pretty strongly in Short Sun and Wizard Knight, for \ninstance, the latter of which especially is about a boy becoming a man and a man \nbecoming a true knight.\n \nJohn\n\n\n\n\n**************Why pay full price? Check out this month's deals on the new \nAOL Shopping. (http://shopping.aol.com/?ncid=emlcntinstor00000001)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<37bfbeb60904151547o2b803698xa2dd622f75148a3e@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jonathan Goodwin", "address": "joncgoodwin at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-15T22:47:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) PF as YA", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I know that \"didactic\" has a pejorative connotation in many\ncircumstances (which might be derived from New Critical orthodoxy, at\nleast in part); but I meant it only descriptively.\n\nIn the interview that I quoted in my original message, Wolfe goes on\nto address the very issue of the necessity of fictional moral\nambiguity in a morally ambiguous world. (He mentions Treasure Island\nspecifically). But it also seems clear that he takes the instructive\nor moral exemplar aspect of writing seriously. Is it significant\n_morally_, for example, that Christopher is or believes himself to be\ngenetically modified?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 5:15 PM, wrote:\nJon writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "For those of you who suggested that Pirate Freedom\n?was a YA novel, does your definition of that genre\n?include an element of didacticism?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm baffled. Why should a YA novel include \"an element of didacticism\"?\nSome YA novels have that, I suppose, but hardly all of them. Read, for\ninstance, Megan Whalen Turner's The Thief (and sequels). Or, going a bit\nolder, John Bellairs' novels, which are entirely fun and not at all\ndidactic. I don't know if you'd say there's a didactic element in, for\ninstance, N. D. Wilson's recent?100 Cupboards and its sequel Dandelion Fire.\n\nIf you find a didactic element in these novels, I suppose you could make\njust as good a case for saying that adult novels include \"an element of\ndidacticism.\"? In fact, it would be easy to make that case for Flannery\nO'Connor or Walker Percy or G. K. Chesterton or C. S. Lewis. Or Gene Wolfe,\nwhose books frequently (and especially recently) seem designed to teach\nwisdom and spur the reader (as well as the characters) toward maturity.\nThat's something you see pretty strongly in Short Sun and Wizard Knight, for\ninstance, the latter of which especially is about a boy becoming a man and a\nman becoming a true knight.\n\nJohn\n\n________________________________\nWhy pay full price? Check out this month's deals on the new AOL Shopping.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20090416091944.1B10148008@diego.dreamhost.com>", "from": { "name": "Mo Holkar / UKG", "address": "lists at ukg.co.uk" }, "date": "2009-04-16T09:19:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) PF as YA", "in_reply_to": "<37bfbeb60904151547o2b803698xa2dd622f75148a3e@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 23:47 15/04/2009, Jonathan Goodwin wrote:\nI know that \"didactic\" has a pejorative connotation in many\ncircumstances (which might be derived from New Critical orthodoxy, at\nleast in part); but I meant it only descriptively." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It seems to me likely that Wolfe means all of his work to have a \ndidactic element (in that descriptive sense). Otherwise, what would \nbe the moral purpose of writing it?\n\nAnd to go back to your slightly earlier question -- while Chris \nsurely isn't held up as a moral exemplar, he does seem to me to be \nportrayed sympathetically, and his exploits laid out in such a way \nthat instruction might be drawn from them. So this might be a more \nsophisticated take on the identify-with protagonist of simplistically \ndidactic YA. I'm not an expert, but I'm sure there must be a \ntradition of other such in the YA canon.\n\nMo\n\n\n# ~ # ~ #\n\nWolfeWiki -- a wiki about Gene Wolfe\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/ " } ] }, { "message_id": "<37bfbeb60904161040v5db718e8j1755eee5167937df@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jonathan Goodwin", "address": "joncgoodwin at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-16T17:40:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) PF as YA", "in_reply_to": "<20090416091944.1B10148008@diego.dreamhost.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think by the time that he's writing his narrative, in America, as a\ntraditionalist priest, he is meant to be a wholly sympathetic\ncharacter by Wolfe. I do not find him so, for any number of reasons,\nbut my feeling is that Wolfe does intend him to be. I solicit other\nreactions to this, from those of you who read the book and still care.\n\nAlso, about the wiki, while I have you on the horn here: The \"Seven\nAmerican Nights\" entry ends with the following line:\n\n\"It shows us that Americans could behave as horribly as the\nthird-world people they look down on, were the roles reversed. \"\n\nI know it's a wiki, etc.; but is that what whoever wrote it really meant to say?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 4:19 AM, Mo Holkar / UKG wrote:\nAt 23:47 15/04/2009, Jonathan Goodwin wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I know that \"didactic\" has a pejorative connotation in many\ncircumstances (which might be derived from New Critical orthodoxy, at\nleast in part); but I meant it only descriptively." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It seems to me likely that Wolfe means all of his work to have a didactic\nelement (in that descriptive sense). Otherwise, what would be the moral\npurpose of writing it?\n\nAnd to go back to your slightly earlier question -- while Chris surely isn't\nheld up as a moral exemplar, he does seem to me to be portrayed\nsympathetically, and his exploits laid out in such a way that instruction\nmight be drawn from them. So this might be a more sophisticated take on the\nidentify-with protagonist of simplistically didactic YA. I'm not an expert,\nbut I'm sure there must be a tradition of other such in the YA canon.\n\nMo\n\n\n# ~ # ~ #\n\nWolfeWiki -- a wiki about Gene Wolfe\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0904161046h33d69493u2ac601f6a609d76d@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-16T17:46:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) PF as YA", "in_reply_to": "<37bfbeb60904161040v5db718e8j1755eee5167937df@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, I didn't find Adult Chris to be sympathetic and I'm not sure I was\nsupposed to. I don't really have a developed argument for that, though." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 1:40 PM, Jonathan Goodwin wrote:\nI think by the time that he's writing his narrative, in America, as a\ntraditionalist priest, he is meant to be a wholly sympathetic\ncharacter by Wolfe. I do not find him so, for any number of reasons,\nbut my feeling is that Wolfe does intend him to be. I solicit other\nreactions to this, from those of you who read the book and still care.\n\nAlso, about the wiki, while I have you on the horn here: The \"Seven\nAmerican Nights\" entry ends with the following line:\n\n\"It shows us that Americans could behave as horribly as the\nthird-world people they look down on, were the roles reversed. \"\n\nI know it's a wiki, etc.; but is that what whoever wrote it really meant to\nsay?\n\nOn Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 4:19 AM, Mo Holkar / UKG wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "At 23:47 15/04/2009, Jonathan Goodwin wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I know that \"didactic\" has a pejorative connotation in many\ncircumstances (which might be derived from New Critical orthodoxy, at\nleast in part); but I meant it only descriptively." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It seems to me likely that Wolfe means all of his work to have a didactic\nelement (in that descriptive sense). Otherwise, what would be the moral\npurpose of writing it?\n\nAnd to go back to your slightly earlier question -- while Chris surely\nisn't\nheld up as a moral exemplar, he does seem to me to be portrayed\nsympathetically, and his exploits laid out in such a way that instruction\nmight be drawn from them. So this might be a more sophisticated take on\nthe\nidentify-with protagonist of simplistically didactic YA. I'm not an\nexpert,\nbut I'm sure there must be a tradition of other such in the YA canon.\n\nMo\n\n\n# ~ # ~ #\n\nWolfeWiki -- a wiki about Gene Wolfe\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49E7735A.50009@colby.edu>", "from": { "name": "Fernando Q. Gouvêa", "address": "fqgouvea at colby.edu" }, "date": "2009-04-16T18:05:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) PF as YA", "in_reply_to": "<37bfbeb60904151450l562f1efap639973f799cb6aaa@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hmm, I thought it was obvious that PF (and, before it, The Wizard \nKnight) were intended as books for young adults! Both books are about \nmanliness and what it implies, about honor and courage, about danger and \nour reaction to it. Those are long-standing themes of young adult \nfiction, though I'll admit that these days they are minor chords amidst \na slew of plucky heroines and folks who overcome their disadvantages \nand/or oppressions. In both PF and WK the main characters are young, \ncome from \"our world\" or something close to it (which makes them easier \nto understand and identify with), and have to deal with a completely \ndifferent reality. How they deal with it is what makes the books \ninteresting.\n\nIs Chris intended as a sympathetic character? I think that to some \nextent he is, though Wolfe has never really written a character that was \na \"good guy\" in every way; he knows that all of us have flaws. One of \nthe things Wolfe was trying to do in PF, I think, is to complicate our \nsense of what is right and what is wrong by having a young man be formed \nin an utterly foreign culture (piracy in the 17th century). Things we \nconsider horrible are routine for him. Things we consider routine (see \nhis comments about his life as a priest) are horrible to him. I know \nit's easy to just say Chris is a \"bad guy\", but most of us haven't been \nshot at and had to fight for our lives. Could we? If we could, should \nwe? Nor have we been hungry and had to decide whether to steal.\n\nThis is why, I think, the time travel motif is essential to the book. It \nallows the kind of distancing that is required to embed us (via Chris) \nin a different cultural world.\n\nOf course, all this is going on while Wolfe is also taking a look at \npirate adventure stories and rubbing our noses in the parts that don't \nusually get much attention: the easy brutality, the way women and slaves \nwere treated, and all that. But he does it through Chris's eyes, who \nsees much of it as \"just the way things are\"...\n\nFernando" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jonathan Goodwin wrote:\nFor those of you who suggested that Pirate Freedom was a YA novel,\ndoes your definition of that genre include an element of didacticism?\nIf so, what lessons would you a young person take away from the book?\nThough this is a disputable claim, I find it plausible that younger\nreaders are more apt to identify uncritically with the protagonists of\nbooks they read. Another generalization is that writers of YA fiction\ntry to create sympathetic (and perhaps even instructive) protagonists\nfor these identity-seeking young readers. I find it difficult to\nbelieve that Wolfe intends Christopher to be such a character. At the\nsame time, however, was there any doubt in your minds that Christopher\nas American priest is intended to be sympathetic in his current\nactions and beliefs?\n\nIn an interview with Peter Wright published in Shadows of the New Sun\n(Liverpool UP: 2007, p. 143, viewable via google books), Wolfe says in\nan interview that There Are Doors came closest in execution to his\noriginal conception as any of his work. I wonder how PF would measure\non that scale. (He also mentions on that page his bafflement at the\nunexplained/unexplainable strong reactions that readers have to his\nwork.)\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<37322E4CF08F410986DB9C6CBCF8B785@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-16T18:21:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) PF as YA", "in_reply_to": "<49E7735A.50009@colby.edu>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hmm, I thought it was obvious that PF\n(and, before it, The Wizard Knight) were\nintended as books for young adults!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I haven't read PF, but I can pretty well guarantee that WK will not end up \nin the library at any junior high I know about. It's violent and overtly \nsexual. And it's tone would definitely not hold the attention of any but the \nmost exceptional young teen. I'd as soon label \"A Voyage to Arcturus\" as YA \nfiction as I would WK.\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<20090416183814.9A55D48009@diego.dreamhost.com>", "from": { "name": "Mo Holkar / UKG", "address": "lists at ukg.co.uk" }, "date": "2009-04-16T18:38:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) PF as YA", "in_reply_to": "<37bfbeb60904161040v5db718e8j1755eee5167937df@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 18:40 16/04/2009, Jonathan Goodwin wrote:\nAlso, about the wiki, while I have you on the horn here: The \"Seven \nAmerican Nights\" entry ends with the following line:\n\n\"It shows us that Americans could behave as horribly as the \nthird-world people they look down on, were the roles reversed. \"\n\nI know it's a wiki, etc.; but is that what whoever wrote it really \nmeant to say?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That particular bit was written by DaveTallman, who's also on this \nlist -- hopefully he can answer to his intention.\n\nThe url is:\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=Stories.SevenAmericanNights\nfor anyone else who's interested,\n\nbest,\n\nMo\n\n\n# ~ # ~ #\n\nWolfeWiki -- a wiki about Gene Wolfe\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/ " } ] }, { "message_id": "<6834.67.142.130.24.1239907311.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-04-16T18:41:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) PF as YA", "in_reply_to": "<37bfbeb60904161040v5db718e8j1755eee5167937df@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Now why do you dislike him as a modern priest, because he thinks children\nshould be taught to violently resist sexual predation? Someone else was on\nabout that, they thought that it was 'blaming the victim', something I\ndon't see.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think by the time that he's writing his narrative, in America, as a\ntraditionalist priest, he is meant to be a wholly sympathetic\ncharacter by Wolfe. I do not find him so, for any number of reasons,\nbut my feeling is that Wolfe does intend him to be. I solicit other\nreactions to this, from those of you who read the book and still care.\n\nAlso, about the wiki, while I have you on the horn here: The \"Seven\nAmerican Nights\" entry ends with the following line:\n\n\"It shows us that Americans could behave as horribly as the\nthird-world people they look down on, were the roles reversed. \"\n\nI know it's a wiki, etc.; but is that what whoever wrote it really meant\nto say?\n\nOn Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 4:19 AM, Mo Holkar / UKG wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "At 23:47 15/04/2009, Jonathan Goodwin wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I know that \"didactic\" has a pejorative connotation in many\ncircumstances (which might be derived from New Critical orthodoxy, at\nleast in part); but I meant it only descriptively." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It seems to me likely that Wolfe means all of his work to have a\ndidactic\nelement (in that descriptive sense). Otherwise, what would be the moral\npurpose of writing it?\n\nAnd to go back to your slightly earlier question -- while Chris surely\nisn't\nheld up as a moral exemplar, he does seem to me to be portrayed\nsympathetically, and his exploits laid out in such a way that\ninstruction\nmight be drawn from them. So this might be a more sophisticated take on\nthe\nidentify-with protagonist of simplistically didactic YA. I'm not an\nexpert,\nbut I'm sure there must be a tradition of other such in the YA canon.\n\nMo\n\n\n# ~ # ~ #\n\nWolfeWiki -- a wiki about Gene Wolfe\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6567.67.142.130.24.1239907429.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-04-16T18:43:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) PF as YA", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0904161046h33d69493u2ac601f6a609d76d@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I sort of liked him. I think he was probably a valuable priest in his\ninner-city parish there.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No, I didn't find Adult Chris to be sympathetic and I'm not sure I was\nsupposed to. I don't really have a developed argument for that, though.\n\nOn Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 1:40 PM, Jonathan Goodwin\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think by the time that he's writing his narrative, in America, as a\ntraditionalist priest, he is meant to be a wholly sympathetic\ncharacter by Wolfe. I do not find him so, for any number of reasons,\nbut my feeling is that Wolfe does intend him to be. I solicit other\nreactions to this, from those of you who read the book and still care.\n\nAlso, about the wiki, while I have you on the horn here: The \"Seven\nAmerican Nights\" entry ends with the following line:\n\n\"It shows us that Americans could behave as horribly as the\nthird-world people they look down on, were the roles reversed. \"\n\nI know it's a wiki, etc.; but is that what whoever wrote it really meant\nto\nsay?\n\nOn Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 4:19 AM, Mo Holkar / UKG \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "At 23:47 15/04/2009, Jonathan Goodwin wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I know that \"didactic\" has a pejorative connotation in many\ncircumstances (which might be derived from New Critical orthodoxy, at\nleast in part); but I meant it only descriptively." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It seems to me likely that Wolfe means all of his work to have a\ndidactic\nelement (in that descriptive sense). Otherwise, what would be the\nmoral\npurpose of writing it?\n\nAnd to go back to your slightly earlier question -- while Chris surely\nisn't\nheld up as a moral exemplar, he does seem to me to be portrayed\nsympathetically, and his exploits laid out in such a way that\ninstruction\nmight be drawn from them. So this might be a more sophisticated take\non\nthe\nidentify-with protagonist of simplistically didactic YA. I'm not an\nexpert,\nbut I'm sure there must be a tradition of other such in the YA canon.\n\nMo\n\n\n# ~ # ~ #\n\nWolfeWiki -- a wiki about Gene Wolfe\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<23742.61143.qm@web50710.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-04-16T20:15:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) PF as YA", "in_reply_to": "<37bfbeb60904161040v5db718e8j1755eee5167937df@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Thu, 4/16/09, Jonathan Goodwin wrote:\nI think by the time that he's writing his narrative, in\nAmerica, as a\ntraditionalist priest, he is meant to be a wholly\nsympathetic\ncharacter by Wolfe. I do not find him so, for any number of\nreasons,\nbut my feeling is that Wolfe does intend him to be." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\n\nMostly I find him sympathetic. However, I didn't like his\nsophistry about why it didn't matter that he planned to break\nhis vow of chastity, or the fact that he broke his vow of\nobedience and planned to break his vow of poverty without a\nword to us on the subject. I'd have liked him better if\nhe'd said, \"I know I took these vows, but I'm going to break\nthem because my wife and our unborn, long-dead child are the\nmost important things to me.\"\n\nIt also seemed that he wasn't serious about the religion he\nwas professing. When he discusses moral problems such as\nwhether it's okay to knock down obstreperous teenage boys\n(\"the fighting priest who can talk to the young\"?) or\nteach children to violently resist molestation, I don't\nremember him ever mentioning the Church's view. He\ncertainly believes in God, but I remember no sign that\nhe believes in the divinity of Jesus or the holiness of\nany saint. I don't find this sort of thing sympathetic in\na clergyman, but I don't know what Wolfe intends.\n\nDo we ever find out why he chose the priesthood when he\nreturned to the 21st Century? Or whether, when he chose it,\nhe was already thinking that he'd leave for the 17th if\nCommunism fell in Cuba?\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<456950.42606.qm@web50709.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-04-17T17:45:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) PF as YA", "in_reply_to": "<37322E4CF08F410986DB9C6CBCF8B785@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Thu, 4/16/09, James Wynn wrote:\nFrom: James Wynn \nSubject: Re: (urth) PF as YA\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Thursday, April 16, 2009, 12:21 PM\nHmm, I thought it was obvious that PF\n(and, before it, The Wizard Knight) were\nintended as books for young adults!\n\nI haven't read PF, but I can pretty well guarantee that\nWK will not end up in the library at any junior high I know\nabout. It's violent and overtly sexual. And it's\ntone would definitely not hold the attention of any but the\nmost exceptional young teen. I'd as soon label \"A\nVoyage to Arcturus\" as YA fiction as I would WK." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think \"for young adults\", quoted above, means\njunior high. Maybe \"YA\", which I used, does, thought I\nthought it included high-school-age kids too.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<49E8C201.90806@mindspring.com>", "from": { "name": "Henry Eissler", "address": "henryeissleriii at mindspring.com" }, "date": "2009-04-17T17:53:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) PF as YA", "in_reply_to": "<49E7735A.50009@colby.edu>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Fernando Q. Gouv?a wrote:\n\nIs Chris intended as a sympathetic character? I think that to some \nextent he is, though Wolfe has never really written a character that \nwas a \"good guy\" in every way; he knows that all of us have flaws. One \nof the things Wolfe was trying to do in PF, I think, is to complicate \nour sense of what is right and what is wrong by having a young man be \nformed in an utterly foreign culture (piracy in the 17th century). \nThings we consider horrible are routine for him. Things we consider \nroutine (see his comments about his life as a priest) are horrible to \nhim. I know it's easy to just say Chris is a \"bad guy\", but most of us \nhaven't been shot at and had to fight for our lives. Could we? If we \ncould, should we? Nor have we been hungry and had to decide whether to \nsteal." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " For what it's worth:\n It always seemed to me that PF was about situational ethics- or \nrather, morals. I didn't walk away with the impression that Chris \nconsidered the horrible things he and his crew did to be anything less \nthan horrible. It took a long time and a lot of pushing for him to \nfinally become a pirate, even with his gangster background. After that, \nhe did everything in his power to influence his crew and anyone he came \ninto contact with to be better, more devout people. Just like so many \nother Wolfe protagonists.\n Bram Burt was a privateer. Chris took his orders directly from \nBurt. Essentially, they were at war with Spain. This was the situation \nhe'd been thrust into- that God placed him in. He made the best of it, \nand tried to be the best man he could be within it. And I believe that \nFather Chris knew that no good man would be likely to understand or \nforgive the life he'd led. That only God could be his judge. And would \nbe. And perhaps had been.\n Anyway, that's my take. Father Chris knew it was a rougher, tougher \nworld than his fellow priests would like to imagine; he wanted to give \nthe boys in his care some guidance that they could accept.\n But I never thought of it as a Young Adult novel. Wizard Knight \nyes. Not Pirate Freedom.\n ---H" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20090417180427.GB32451@broggs.org>", "from": { "name": "Jeffrey Brent McBeth", "address": "mcbeth at broggs.org" }, "date": "2009-04-17T18:04:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) PF as YA", "in_reply_to": "<456950.42606.qm@web50709.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 10:45:21AM -0700, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nIt's violent and overtly sexual. And it's\ntone would definitely not hold the attention of any but the\nmost exceptional young teen. I'd as soon label \"A\nVoyage to Arcturus\" as YA fiction as I would WK." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think \"for young adults\", quoted above, means\njunior high. Maybe \"YA\", which I used, does, thought I\nthought it included high-school-age kids too." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Most definitions of YA put it in the range of I've seen are tween-16\n\nJeff" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "----------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\"The man who does not read good books has no advantage over \n the man who cannot read them.\"\n -- Mark Twain\n----------------------------------------------------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49E8C4DC.1060605@colby.edu>", "from": { "name": "Fernando Q. Gouvêa", "address": "fqgouvea at colby.edu" }, "date": "2009-04-17T18:05:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) PF as YA", "in_reply_to": "<456950.42606.qm@web50709.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I actually thought a bit before phrasing it as \"for young adults\" \ninstead of \"YA\", for that very reason. \"YA\", after all, is a marketing \ncategory. Today it seems to mean \"preadolescent\".\n\nThat said, however, the scuttlebut among authors is that folks have been \nasked to *add* sex and violence to their books in order to make them \nappropriate for the YA market. If you've read a review of Margo \nLanagan's \"Tender Morsels\", to choose an example that I happened to \nnotice, you know that the \"YA\" category today embraces a lot of stuff \nthat junior high librarians used to frown at.\n\nFernando" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jerry Friedman wrote:\n--- On Thu, 4/16/09, James Wynn wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: James Wynn \nSubject: Re: (urth) PF as YA\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Thursday, April 16, 2009, 12:21 PM\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Hmm, I thought it was obvious that PF\n(and, before it, The Wizard Knight) were\nintended as books for young adults!\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I haven't read PF, but I can pretty well guarantee that\nWK will not end up in the library at any junior high I know\nabout. It's violent and overtly sexual. And it's\ntone would definitely not hold the attention of any but the\nmost exceptional young teen. I'd as soon label \"A\nVoyage to Arcturus\" as YA fiction as I would WK.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think \"for young adults\", quoted above, means\njunior high. Maybe \"YA\", which I used, does, thought I\nthought it included high-school-age kids too.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n \n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<26C412FE8F524D5EAA3C6F523FDC86B5@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-17T18:07:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) PF as YA", "in_reply_to": "<456950.42606.qm@web50709.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: James Wynn \nSubject: Re: (urth) PF as YA\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Thursday, April 16, 2009, 12:21 PM\nHmm, I thought it was obvious that PF\n(and, before it, The Wizard Knight) were\nintended as books for young adults!\n\nI haven't read PF, but I can pretty well guarantee that\nWK will not end up in the library at any junior high I know\nabout. It's violent and overtly sexual. And it's\ntone would definitely not hold the attention of any but the\nmost exceptional young teen. I'd as soon label \"A\nVoyage to Arcturus\" as YA fiction as I would WK." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think \"for young adults\", quoted above, means\njunior high. Maybe \"YA\", which I used, does, thought I\nthought it included high-school-age kids too." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, when I browse through the YA section of my local used bookstore, I see \n\"Wizard of Oz\", \"Chronicles of Narnia\", OS Card's \"Ender\" series, \"Tom \nSawyer\", the \"Harry Potter\" series, Susan Cooper, and Madeleine L'engle. \nNone of these could be categorized with Wizard Knight IMO.\n\nHigh school libraries might include these books as well and books that \nstudents might be assigned in college (such as \"Huckleberry Finn\"). High \nschool literature is a \"tween\" category which doesn't seem to have a \nspecific shelf in the publishing industry. For example, L Ron Hubbard's \n\"Battlefield Earth\" is pulpy and probably especially appealing to a 14 to 17 \naudience, but I can't imagine it being marketed as Young Adult.\n\nBut you're probably right in this sense: If WK had any chance of becoming a \n\"Gold Book\", it would happen for an exceptional older teen. But I stand my \nanalogy to \"A Voyage to Arcturus\".\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<49E8C5A3.3020002@colby.edu>", "from": { "name": "Fernando Q. Gouvêa", "address": "fqgouvea at colby.edu" }, "date": "2009-04-17T18:08:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) PF as YA", "in_reply_to": "<49E8C201.90806@mindspring.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That is my reading as well, though I think that we're also expected to \nsee that some of Chris's choices are pretty bad choices. The business at \nthe end about the vow of celibacy is a particularly discomforting one.\n\nSee my other comment about \"YA\". I'm not sure what that means any more. \nBut I still think the themes in PF are appropriate for young adults, and \nespecially young men. This seems to be a concern of Wolfe's. Our society \nseems no longer interested in \"manliness\", but Wolfe is.\n\nFernando" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Henry Eissler wrote:\nFernando Q. Gouv?a wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Is Chris intended as a sympathetic character? I think that to some \nextent he is, though Wolfe has never really written a character that \nwas a \"good guy\" in every way; he knows that all of us have flaws. \nOne of the things Wolfe was trying to do in PF, I think, is to \ncomplicate our sense of what is right and what is wrong by having a \nyoung man be formed in an utterly foreign culture (piracy in the 17th \ncentury). Things we consider horrible are routine for him. Things we \nconsider routine (see his comments about his life as a priest) are \nhorrible to him. I know it's easy to just say Chris is a \"bad guy\", \nbut most of us haven't been shot at and had to fight for our lives. \nCould we? If we could, should we? Nor have we been hungry and had to \ndecide whether to steal." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " For what it's worth:\n It always seemed to me that PF was about situational ethics- or \nrather, morals. I didn't walk away with the impression that Chris \nconsidered the horrible things he and his crew did to be anything less \nthan horrible. It took a long time and a lot of pushing for him to \nfinally become a pirate, even with his gangster background. After \nthat, he did everything in his power to influence his crew and anyone \nhe came into contact with to be better, more devout people. Just like \nso many other Wolfe protagonists.\n Bram Burt was a privateer. Chris took his orders directly from \nBurt. Essentially, they were at war with Spain. This was the \nsituation he'd been thrust into- that God placed him in. He made the \nbest of it, and tried to be the best man he could be within it. And I \nbelieve that Father Chris knew that no good man would be likely to \nunderstand or forgive the life he'd led. That only God could be his \njudge. And would be. And perhaps had been.\n Anyway, that's my take. Father Chris knew it was a rougher, \ntougher world than his fellow priests would like to imagine; he wanted \nto give the boys in his care some guidance that they could accept.\n But I never thought of it as a Young Adult novel. Wizard Knight \nyes. Not Pirate Freedom.\n ---H\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-04-17T18:12:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) PF as YA", "in_reply_to": "<26C412FE8F524D5EAA3C6F523FDC86B5@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Apr 17, 2009, at 1:07 PM, James Wynn wrote:\n For example, L Ron Hubbard's \"Battlefield Earth\" is pulpy and \nprobably especially appealing to a 14 to 17 audience, but I can't \nimagine it being marketed as Young Adult." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It should come with a warning label of SOME kind, though.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<147491.49150.qm@web63905.mail.re1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Fred Kiesche", "address": "recursive_loop at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-04-20T03:32:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) PF as YA", "in_reply_to": "<37322E4CF08F410986DB9C6CBCF8B785@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Funny...I was in junior high in the mid-1970's. We had \"Voyage to Arcturus\". And a lot of stuff by Robert Silverberg, Samuel Delany, and others that was pretty dang \"adult\".\n\nAnd a lot of the stuff I see marketed as YA is explicit one way or the other.\n\nIn the \"teen room\" of the town library they have shelves of manga. Some manga can be pretty dang adult. My wife or I check whatever our daughter wants to borrow, less to censor than to provide guidance and offer advice. (If she wanted to take out any of the really \"hard\" stuff, I'd probably censor/ban, but that's me.)\n\nSo there might be more in that junior high library than you know of!\n\nBut I doubt you'd find Gene Wolfe, as I don't recall him ever getting a teen/YA marketing push.\n\nF.P. Kiesche III \"Ah Mr. Gibbon, another damned, fat, square book. Always, scribble, scribble, scribble, eh?\" (The Duke of Gloucester, on being presented with Volume 2 of The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.) Blogging at The Lensman's Children and TexasBestGrok!\n\n--- On Thu, 4/16/09, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: James Wynn \nSubject: Re: (urth) PF as YA\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Thursday, April 16, 2009, 2:21 PM\nHmm, I thought it was obvious that PF\n(and, before it, The Wizard Knight) were\nintended as books for young adults!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I haven't read PF, but I can pretty well guarantee that WK will not end up\nin the library at any junior high I know about. It's violent and overtly\nsexual. And it's tone would definitely not hold the attention of any but the\nmost exceptional young teen. I'd as soon label \"A Voyage to\nArcturus\" as YA fiction as I would WK.\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<44fb53d10904192037t7ac1dff5m6c92dc2efd498a0f@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-20T03:37:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) PF as YA", "in_reply_to": "<147491.49150.qm@web63905.mail.re1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My Catholic all-guys high school had copies of The Wizard and The\nKnight; that is not, however, how I got into Wolfe.I remember that the\nlibrarians put both books on display (along with lots of other sci-fi\nand fantasy stuff, including Watchmen). I was always tempted to read\nthem, but it's just as well I didn't - I think New Sun was a better\nintroduction to Wolfe for me.\n\n-Matt" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49EC0D09.6060701@mindspring.com>", "from": { "name": "Henry Eissler", "address": "henryeissleriii at mindspring.com" }, "date": "2009-04-20T05:50:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) PF as YA", "in_reply_to": "<49E8C5A3.3020002@colby.edu>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Fernando Q. Gouv?a wrote:\nSee my other comment about \"YA\". I'm not sure what that means any \nmore. But I still think the themes in PF are appropriate for young \nadults, and especially young men. This seems to be a concern of \nWolfe's. Our society seems no longer interested in \"manliness\", but \nWolfe is." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " I think I would have worded that differently, but that in the end \nwe'd be talking about the same thing. I agree. I hadn't thought the \nnovel was intended for a younger audience, but it could have been. I \nthink the spectre of \"Treasure Island\" helps that impression." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That is my reading as well, though I think that we're also expected to \nsee that some of Chris's choices are pretty bad choices. The business \nat the end about the vow of celibacy is a particularly discomforting one." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " I realize now that I was somewhat stating the obvious.\n I didn't get the part about Chris making bad choices. His plan to \nbreak the vow of celibacy, for instance- didn't disturb me. At that \npoint Chris was long past having decided that his own relationship with \nGod was unique. Perhaps the danger of that is part of what the book \ntries to explore. But also, the woman in question was his wife. Why he \nmade such a vow in the first place, I don't know; but the idea of \nbreaking it bothered him enough to mention it in his \"confession\".\n All I can say is that upon my first read, I wasn't struck by any \nmoral qualms. I don't know if I'd say that I found the character \nsympathetic, but I felt his actions to be contextually appropriate. \nThat is, though I probably wouldn't have done the same things in the \nsame situation, it seemed to make sense for him. It never occurred to \nme to doubt his (young Chris') relationship with his own conscience.\n As I said in a previous post, there were points where I felt that \nFather Chris was tempted to take a dark road. That owing to freedom of \nchoice, there were necessarily a Good Ignacio and a Bad Ignacio in the \n17th century.\n Anyway, thanks for your kind response.\n ---H\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<49EC8739.2020105@goosemoon.org>", "from": { "name": "Allan Anderson", "address": "rubel at goosemoon.org" }, "date": "2009-04-20T14:31:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) PF as YA", "in_reply_to": "<49EC0D09.6060701@mindspring.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Henry Eissler wrote:\nFernando Q. Gouv?a wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "See my other comment about \"YA\". I'm not sure what that means any \nmore. But I still think the themes in PF are appropriate for young \nadults, and especially young men. This seems to be a concern of \nWolfe's. Our society seems no longer interested in \"manliness\", but \nWolfe is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " I think I would have worded that differently, but that in the end \nwe'd be talking about the same thing. I agree. I hadn't thought the \nnovel was intended for a younger audience, but it could have been. I \nthink the spectre of \"Treasure Island\" helps that impression." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I should ask my sister the youth librarian what she thinks. She's pretty \nmuch of the, \"hey, if it gets them to read, it's okay\" school when it \ncomes to sex and swashbuckling in novels. But would it draw in and \nreward a Young Adult audience, that slippery category?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That is my reading as well, though I think that we're also expected \nto see that some of Chris's choices are pretty bad choices. The \nbusiness at the end about the vow of celibacy is a particularly \ndiscomforting one." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " I realize now that I was somewhat stating the obvious.\n I didn't get the part about Chris making bad choices. His plan to \nbreak the vow of celibacy, for instance- didn't disturb me. At that \npoint Chris was long past having decided that his own relationship \nwith God was unique. Perhaps the danger of that is part of what the \nbook tries to explore. But also, the woman in question was his wife. \nWhy he made such a vow in the first place, I don't know; but the idea \nof breaking it bothered him enough to mention it in his \"confession\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You make some very good points! Hey, do you think he took his vow \npartially because he thought, \"there can be no other woman for me but \nNovia\"? IIRC, he doesn't figure out that he can possibly go back until \nafter doing so; I'm not 100% on this chronology, though.\n\nIt's still creepy. Hey, you know that old monk guy who's living with \nyou? Well, he's really the same person as your dashing teenage pirate \nhusband! On the up side, you have someone to help take care of the baby \n(possibly with a lot of loot). On the down side, you've traded in your \nhandsome young man for someone much older (something you ran away from, \nif I recall). Plus, there's this priest who keeps checking out your ass.\n\nAt what point does Chris wearing the cassock become seriously deceitful?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49EC94EC.2050200@colby.edu>", "from": { "name": "Fernando Q. Gouvêa", "address": "fqgouvea at colby.edu" }, "date": "2009-04-20T15:29:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) PF as YA", "in_reply_to": "<49EC8739.2020105@goosemoon.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't quite remember the rules, but isn't there some special provision \nfor men who were married before becoming priests?\n\nFernando" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Allan Anderson wrote:\nHenry Eissler wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Fernando Q. Gouv?a wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "See my other comment about \"YA\". I'm not sure what that means any \nmore. But I still think the themes in PF are appropriate for young \nadults, and especially young men. This seems to be a concern of \nWolfe's. Our society seems no longer interested in \"manliness\", but \nWolfe is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " I think I would have worded that differently, but that in the end \nwe'd be talking about the same thing. I agree. I hadn't thought the \nnovel was intended for a younger audience, but it could have been. I \nthink the spectre of \"Treasure Island\" helps that impression." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I should ask my sister the youth librarian what she thinks. She's \npretty much of the, \"hey, if it gets them to read, it's okay\" school \nwhen it comes to sex and swashbuckling in novels. But would it draw in \nand reward a Young Adult audience, that slippery category?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "That is my reading as well, though I think that we're also expected \nto see that some of Chris's choices are pretty bad choices. The \nbusiness at the end about the vow of celibacy is a particularly \ndiscomforting one." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " I realize now that I was somewhat stating the obvious.\n I didn't get the part about Chris making bad choices. His plan to \nbreak the vow of celibacy, for instance- didn't disturb me. At that \npoint Chris was long past having decided that his own relationship \nwith God was unique. Perhaps the danger of that is part of what the \nbook tries to explore. But also, the woman in question was his \nwife. Why he made such a vow in the first place, I don't know; but \nthe idea of breaking it bothered him enough to mention it in his \n\"confession\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You make some very good points! Hey, do you think he took his vow \npartially because he thought, \"there can be no other woman for me but \nNovia\"? IIRC, he doesn't figure out that he can possibly go back until \nafter doing so; I'm not 100% on this chronology, though.\n\nIt's still creepy. Hey, you know that old monk guy who's living with \nyou? Well, he's really the same person as your dashing teenage pirate \nhusband! On the up side, you have someone to help take care of the \nbaby (possibly with a lot of loot). On the down side, you've traded in \nyour handsome young man for someone much older (something you ran away \nfrom, if I recall). Plus, there's this priest who keeps checking out \nyour ass.\n\nAt what point does Chris wearing the cassock become seriously deceitful?\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370904200859veb3e2d5gb7ee198e7f7ba89f@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-20T15:59:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) PF as YA", "in_reply_to": "<49EC94EC.2050200@colby.edu>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "2009/4/20 \"Fernando Q. Gouv?a\" :" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't quite remember the rules, but isn't there some special provision for\nmen who were married before becoming priests?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There have been a few exceptions granted for clergy from other denominations\nconverting and becoming priests, but that is very rare.\n\nThe relevant question here -- and it's one which I don't know the\nanswer to -- is,\n\"what if a widower becomes a priest and it turns out his wife isn't dead after\nall?\" My guess is that this would become an exception, because neither the\nsacrament of matrimony nor that of holy orders can be \"undone.\"" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<851104.29345.qm@web63902.mail.re1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Fred Kiesche", "address": "recursive_loop at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-04-20T16:25:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) PF as YA", "in_reply_to": "<49EC94EC.2050200@colby.edu>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If you are a deacon (we have four in our RC parish) and your wife dies, you've made a committment to become a priest...\n\n\nF.P. Kiesche III\n\"Ah Mr. Gibbon, another damned, fat, square book. Always, scribble, scribble, scribble, eh?\" (The Duke of Gloucester, on being presented with Volume 2 of The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.) Blogging at The Lensman's Children and TexasBestGrok!\n\n--- On Mon, 4/20/09, \"Fernando Q. Gouv?a\" wrote:\n\nFrom: \"Fernando Q. Gouv?a\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) PF as YA\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Monday, April 20, 2009, 11:29 AM\n\nI don't quite remember the rules, but isn't there some special provision\nfor men who were married before becoming priests?\n\nFernando" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Allan Anderson wrote:\nHenry Eissler wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Fernando Q. Gouv?a wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "See my other comment about \"YA\". I'm not sure what" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "that means any more. But I still think the themes in PF are appropriate for\nyoung adults, and especially young men. This seems to be a concern of\nWolfe's. Our society seems no longer interested in \"manliness\",\nbut Wolfe is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " I think I would have worded that differently, but that in the end\nwe'd be talking about the same thing. I agree. I hadn't thought the\nnovel was intended for a younger audience, but it could have been. I think the\nspectre of \"Treasure Island\" helps that impression." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I should ask my sister the youth librarian what she thinks. She's\npretty much of the, \"hey, if it gets them to read, it's okay\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "school when it comes to sex and swashbuckling in novels. But would it draw in\nand reward a Young Adult audience, that slippery category?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "That is my reading as well, though I think that we're also\nexpected to see that some of Chris's choices are pretty bad choices. The\nbusiness at the end about the vow of celibacy is a particularly discomforting\none." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " I realize now that I was somewhat stating the obvious.\n I didn't get the part about Chris making bad choices. His plan\nto break the vow of celibacy, for instance- didn't disturb me. At that\npoint Chris was long past having decided that his own relationship with God was\nunique. Perhaps the danger of that is part of what the book tries to explore. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But also, the woman in question was his wife. Why he made such a vow in the\nfirst place, I don't know; but the idea of breaking it bothered him enough\nto mention it in his \"confession\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You make some very good points! Hey, do you think he took his vow\npartially because he thought, \"there can be no other woman for me but\nNovia\"? IIRC, he doesn't figure out that he can possibly go back until\nafter doing so; I'm not 100% on this chronology, though.\n\nIt's still creepy. Hey, you know that old monk guy who's living\nwith you? Well, he's really the same person as your dashing teenage pirate\nhusband! On the up side, you have someone to help take care of the baby\n(possibly with a lot of loot). On the down side, you've traded in your\nhandsome young man for someone much older (something you ran away from, if I\nrecall). Plus, there's this priest who keeps checking out your ass.\n\nAt what point does Chris wearing the cassock become seriously deceitful?\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "-- =============================================================\nFernando Q. Gouvea Carter Professor of Mathematics Colby College \n Editor, MAA FOCUS\n5836 Mayflower Hill Editor, MAA Reviews\nWaterville, ME 04901 http://mathdl.maa.org/mathDL/19/\nhttp://www.colby.edu/~fqgouvea\n\nIt is necessary for the welfare of society that genius should be privileged to\nutter sedition, to blaspheme, to outrage good taste, to corrupt the youthful\nmind, and generally to scandalize one's uncles. -- George Bernard Shaw" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew Weber", "address": "palaeologos at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-20T16:32:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) PF as YA", "in_reply_to": "<851104.29345.qm@web63902.mail.re1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Eastern Catholic (and Orthodox) priests may marry before their ordination,\nbut married men cannot be bishops in either jurisdiction.\n\nIn the various Anglican and Old Catholic jurisdictions, any clergy may marry\nat any time. The more conservative will not allow divorce and remarriage,\nbut there are otherwise no restrictions on wedlock, nor any requirement of\ncelibacy.\n\nThe Roman Catholic Church has, on occasion, reordained married Anglican\nclergymen into the RC priesthood (the official RC position is that Anglican\norders are not valid, so they are re-ordained if they are to function\nclerically). Otherwise, only perpetual deacons are permitted to be married,\nand they must be married before they are ordained." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 9:25 AM, Fred Kiesche wrote:\nIf you are a deacon (we have four in our RC parish) and your wife dies,\nyou've made a committment to become a priest...\n\nF.P. Kiesche III\n\"Ah Mr. Gibbon, another damned, fat, square book. Always, scribble,\nscribble, scribble, eh?\" (The Duke of Gloucester, on being presented with Volume\n2 of The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.) Blogging at The Lensman's\nChildren and TexasBestGrok\n!\n\n\n--- On *Mon, 4/20/09, \"Fernando Q. Gouv?a\" * wrote:\n\nFrom: \"Fernando Q. Gouv?a\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) PF as YA\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Monday, April 20, 2009, 11:29 AM\n\nI don't quite remember the rules, but isn't there some special provision\nfor men who were married before becoming priests?\n\nFernando\n\nAllan Anderson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Henry Eissler wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Fernando Q. Gouv?a wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "See my other comment about \"YA\". I'm not sure what\nthat means any more. But I still think the themes in PF are appropriate for\nyoung adults, and especially young men. This seems to be a concern of\nWolfe's. Our society seems no longer interested in \"manliness\",\nbut Wolfe is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " I think I would have worded that differently, but that in the end\nwe'd be talking about the same thing. I agree. I hadn't thought the\nnovel was intended for a younger audience, but it could have been. I think the\nspectre of \"Treasure Island\" helps that impression." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I should ask my sister the youth librarian what she thinks. She's\npretty much of the, \"hey, if it gets them to read, it's okay\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "school when it comes to sex and swashbuckling in novels. But would it draw in\nand reward a Young Adult audience, that slippery category?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "That is my reading as well, though I think that we're also\nexpected to see that some of Chris's choices are pretty bad choices. The\nbusiness at the end about the vow of celibacy is a particularly discomforting\none." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " I realize now that I was somewhat stating the obvious.\n I didn't get the part about Chris making bad choices. His plan\nto break the vow of celibacy, for instance- didn't disturb me. At that\npoint Chris was long past having decided that his own relationship with God was\nunique. Perhaps the danger of that is part of what the book tries to explore." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But also, the woman in question was his wife. Why he made such a vow in the\nfirst place, I don't know; but the idea of breaking it bothered him enough\nto mention it in his \"confession\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You make some very good points! Hey, do you think he took his vow\npartially because he thought, \"there can be no other woman for me but\nNovia\"? IIRC, he doesn't figure out that he can possibly go back until\nafter doing so; I'm not 100% on this chronology, though.\n\nIt's still creepy. Hey, you know that old monk guy who's living\nwith you? Well, he's really the same person as your dashing teenage pirate\nhusband! On the up side, you have someone to help take care of the baby\n(possibly with a lot of loot). On the down side, you've traded in your\nhandsome young man for someone much older (something you ran away from, if I\nrecall). Plus, there's this priest who keeps checking out your ass.\n\nAt what point does Chris wearing the cassock become seriously deceitful?\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370904200949o3dcff3e9jc8ba623a23407be2@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-20T16:49:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) PF as YA", "in_reply_to": "<851104.29345.qm@web63902.mail.re1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's weird. In our diocese there's a clear distinction between\n\"transitional deacons\"\nwho expect to become priests and \"permanant deacons\" which are the married men\nwho assist in parishes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 9:25 AM, Fred Kiesche wrote:\nIf you are a deacon (we have four in our RC parish) and your wife dies,\nyou've made a committment to become a priest...\n\nF.P. Kiesche III\n\"Ah Mr. Gibbon, another damned, fat, square book. Always, scribble,\nscribble, scribble, eh?\" (The Duke of Gloucester, on being presented with\nVolume 2 of The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.) Blogging at The\nLensman's Children and TexasBestGrok!\n\n--- On Mon, 4/20/09, \"Fernando Q. Gouv?a\" wrote:\n\nFrom: \"Fernando Q. Gouv?a\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) PF as YA\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Monday, April 20, 2009, 11:29 AM\n\nI don't quite remember the rules, but isn't there some special provision\nfor men who were married before becoming priests?\n\nFernando\n\nAllan Anderson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Henry Eissler wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Fernando Q. Gouv?a wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "See my other comment about \"YA\". I'm not sure what\nthat means any more. But I still think the themes in PF are appropriate for\nyoung adults, and especially young men. This seems to be a concern of\nWolfe's. Our society seems no longer interested in \"manliness\",\nbut Wolfe is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " I think I would have worded that differently, but that in the end\nwe'd be talking about the same thing. I agree. I hadn't thought the\nnovel was intended for a younger audience, but it could have been. I think\nthe\nspectre of \"Treasure Island\" helps that impression." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I should ask my sister the youth librarian what she thinks. She's\npretty much of the, \"hey, if it gets them to read, it's okay\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "school when it comes to sex and swashbuckling in novels. But would it draw\nin\nand reward a Young Adult audience, that slippery category?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "That is my reading as well, though I think that we're also\nexpected to see that some of Chris's choices are pretty bad choices. The\nbusiness at the end about the vow of celibacy is a particularly\ndiscomforting\none." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " I realize now that I was somewhat stating the obvious.\n I didn't get the part about Chris making bad choices. His plan\nto break the vow of celibacy, for instance- didn't disturb me. At that\npoint Chris was long past having decided that his own relationship with God\nwas\nunique. Perhaps the danger of that is part of what the book tries to\nexplore." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But also, the woman in question was his wife. Why he made such a vow in the\nfirst place, I don't know; but the idea of breaking it bothered him enough\nto mention it in his \"confession\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You make some very good points! Hey, do you think he took his vow\npartially because he thought, \"there can be no other woman for me but\nNovia\"? IIRC, he doesn't figure out that he can possibly go back until\nafter doing so; I'm not 100% on this chronology, though.\n\nIt's still creepy. Hey, you know that old monk guy who's living\nwith you? Well, he's really the same person as your dashing teenage pirate\nhusband! On the up side, you have someone to help take care of the baby\n(possibly with a lot of loot). On the down side, you've traded in your\nhandsome young man for someone much older (something you ran away from, if I\nrecall). Plus, there's this priest who keeps checking out your ass.\n\nAt what point does Chris wearing the cassock become seriously deceitful?\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<58161.49468.qm@web50703.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-04-20T21:24:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) PF as YA", "in_reply_to": "<49EC8739.2020105@goosemoon.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- On Mon, 4/20/09, Allan Anderson wrote:\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You make some very good points! Hey, do you think he took\nhis vow partially because he thought, \"there can be no\nother woman for me but Novia\"? IIRC, he doesn't\nfigure out that he can possibly go back until after doing\nso; I'm not 100% on this chronology, though." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\n\nThat's an interesting question. I don't remember anything\nabout when he makes the decision. or when he figures out\nthat he can go back. It could be as soon as he finds out\nwhat year he's returned to." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At what point does Chris wearing the cassock become\nseriously deceitful?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Another interesting question. Maybe the second he puts\nit on? He seems to want to help people, which is important\nto me, but as I said in an earlier post I remember no\nevidence that he believes in Christianity, which seems\nimportant to the question of deceit. and again, he has\neven less trouble breaking his vows of poverty and\nobedience than he does his vow of chastity.\n\nI would also imagine that somebody would talk to a\nprospective priest about his vows, and say something like,\n\"This vow means, for example, that if there's a woman you'd\ngo back to if it ever became possible, you're giving up on\nher.\" If this subject or something like it is raised,\nit's really time for Chris to think about Novia and whether\nhe could ever go back to her, if he hasn't thought about\nthat already.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<405652.50541.qm@web50710.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-04-20T21:33:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) PF as YA", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370904200859veb3e2d5gb7ee198e7f7ba89f@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- On Mon, 4/20/09, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The relevant question here -- and it's one which I\ndon't know the\nanswer to -- is,\n\"what if a widower becomes a priest and it turns out\nhis wife isn't dead after\nall?\" My guess is that this would become an exception,\nbecause neither the\nsacrament of matrimony nor that of holy orders can be\n\"undone.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As I recall, there's such a thing as a conditional baptism.\nYou're making me wonder whether there's a conditional\nordination in cases where there's some doubt about whether\nthe wife is really dead. Of course, if there's much\ndoubt, I imagine the widower couldn't be ordained, but\nwhat about the case of a shipwreck or plane crash where\nit's practically certain that no one survived, but no\nbodies were recovered?\n\nGetting back to /Pirate Freedom/, though, obviously\nChris isn't going to tell anyone in the 21st-century\nChurch about Novia.\n\nWho here wishes Wolfe had included Chris's letter to\nBishop Scully resigning his post?\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew Weber", "address": "palaeologos at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-20T21:42:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) PF as YA", "in_reply_to": "<405652.50541.qm@web50710.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 2:33 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\n\n--- On Mon, 4/20/09, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The relevant question here -- and it's one which I\ndon't know the\nanswer to -- is,\n\"what if a widower becomes a priest and it turns out\nhis wife isn't dead after\nall?\" My guess is that this would become an exception,\nbecause neither the\nsacrament of matrimony nor that of holy orders can be\n\"undone.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As I recall, there's such a thing as a conditional baptism.\nYou're making me wonder whether there's a conditional\nordination in cases where there's some doubt about whether\nthe wife is really dead. Of course, if there's much\ndoubt, I imagine the widower couldn't be ordained, but\nwhat about the case of a shipwreck or plane crash where\nit's practically certain that no one survived, but no\nbodies were recovered?\n\nGetting back to /Pirate Freedom/, though, obviously\nChris isn't going to tell anyone in the 21st-century\nChurch about Novia.\n\nWho here wishes Wolfe had included Chris's letter to\nBishop Scully resigning his post?\n\nJerry Friedman" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, a conditional ordination would be when there's doubt that a person has\nbeen ordained validly. Sacraments *sub conditione *are administered when\nthere is some kind of doubt as to the validity of a previous bestowal (as\nalso with baptism or confirmation; the RCC will conditionally re-baptize or\nconfirm if an initiate is unsure whether he has been previously baptized or\nconfirmed, or if the person has been baptized with a non-Trinitarian\nformula). There's no provision for \"taking back\" any sacrament once it's\nbeen conferred; even ordination, once it's been given, can never be taken\nback. A so-called \"defrocked\" priest hasn't been deprived of the\npriesthood, just his ability to legally exercise it. Likewise, a\ndeclaration of a marriage's nullity doesn't cancel the sacrament--it says\nthat it never actually occurred.\n\nThere is no dogmatic or doctrinal prohibition against married priests in the\nRCC. It is purely a matter of discipline. A married man *can* be a priest;\nthe Roman Catholic Church just doesn't ordain married men. There are a\nnumber of explanations why this is so; the most frequent ones are 1) being a\npriest is a demanding job which requires the full attention of the person\nwho exercises it, leaving no room in his life for a family; and 2) paying\nthe additional amount required to support a wife and children would divert\nmoney that the Church needs for other things." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Matt +\n\nInferiors revolt in order that they may be equal, and equals that they may\nbe superior. Such is the state of mind which creates revolutions.\nAristotle (384-322 B.C.), Politics, bk. V, ch. 2" } ] }, { "message_id": "<988282.64235.qm@web50706.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-04-21T04:26:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) PF as YA", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Mon, 4/20/09, Matthew Weber wrote:\nFrom: Matthew Weber \nSubject: Re: (urth) PF as YA\nTo: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com, \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Monday, April 20, 2009, 3:42 PM\nOn Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 2:33 PM, Jerry Friedman\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "--- On Mon, 4/20/09, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\n wrote:\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The relevant question here -- and it's one\nwhich I\ndon't know the\nanswer to -- is,\n\"what if a widower becomes a priest and it\nturns out\nhis wife isn't dead after\nall?\" My guess is that this would become an\nexception,\nbecause neither the\nsacrament of matrimony nor that of holy orders\ncan be\n\"undone.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As I recall, there's such a thing as a conditional\nbaptism.\nYou're making me wonder whether there's a\nconditional\nordination in cases where there's some doubt about\nwhether\nthe wife is really dead. Of course, if there's\nmuch\ndoubt, I imagine the widower couldn't be ordained,\nbut\nwhat about the case of a shipwreck or plane crash\nwhere\nit's practically certain that no one survived, but\nno\nbodies were recovered?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No, a conditional ordination would be when there's\ndoubt that a person has\nbeen ordained validly. Sacraments *sub conditione *are\nadministered when\nthere is some kind of doubt as to the validity of a\nprevious bestowal (as\nalso with baptism or confirmation; the RCC will\nconditionally re-baptize or\nconfirm if an initiate is unsure whether he has been\npreviously baptized or\nconfirmed, or if the person has been baptized with a\nnon-Trinitarian formula)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\n\nThanks for the information. It seems that if they could\nbaptize on that condition they could administer other\nsacraments on other conditions, but I believe you that\nthey don't." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There is no dogmatic or doctrinal prohibition against\nmarried priests in the\nRCC. It is purely a matter of discipline. A married man\n*can* be a priest;\nthe Roman Catholic Church just doesn't ordain married\nmen." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So occasionally they face the question of whether a\nsupposed widower really is one. If I understand you\ncorrectly, accidentally ordaining a married man wouldn't\nbe a disaster, so this may not be that big a deal.\n\nI didn't think about, but the question must come up\nfar more often in the case of supposed widows and\nwidowers who want to marry again, and I'm sure ways\nof dealing with that have been developed.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew Weber", "address": "palaeologos at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-21T04:33:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) PF as YA", "in_reply_to": "<988282.64235.qm@web50706.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 9:26 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\n\n--- On Mon, 4/20/09, Matthew Weber wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: Matthew Weber \nSubject: Re: (urth) PF as YA\nTo: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com, \"The Urth Mailing List\" <\nurth at lists.urth.net>\nDate: Monday, April 20, 2009, 3:42 PM\nOn Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 2:33 PM, Jerry Friedman\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "--- On Mon, 4/20/09, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\n wrote:\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "The relevant question here -- and it's one\nwhich I\ndon't know the\nanswer to -- is,\n\"what if a widower becomes a priest and it\nturns out\nhis wife isn't dead after\nall?\" My guess is that this would become an\nexception,\nbecause neither the\nsacrament of matrimony nor that of holy orders\ncan be\n\"undone.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "As I recall, there's such a thing as a conditional\nbaptism.\nYou're making me wonder whether there's a\nconditional\nordination in cases where there's some doubt about\nwhether\nthe wife is really dead. Of course, if there's\nmuch\ndoubt, I imagine the widower couldn't be ordained,\nbut\nwhat about the case of a shipwreck or plane crash\nwhere\nit's practically certain that no one survived, but\nno\nbodies were recovered?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "No, a conditional ordination would be when there's\ndoubt that a person has\nbeen ordained validly. Sacraments *sub conditione *are\nadministered when\nthere is some kind of doubt as to the validity of a\nprevious bestowal (as\nalso with baptism or confirmation; the RCC will\nconditionally re-baptize or\nconfirm if an initiate is unsure whether he has been\npreviously baptized or\nconfirmed, or if the person has been baptized with a\nnon-Trinitarian formula)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...\n\nThanks for the information. It seems that if they could\nbaptize on that condition they could administer other\nsacraments on other conditions, but I believe you that\nthey don't." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh, they do; but an ordination sub conditione isn't the circumstance of\n\"we're ordaining you presuming that you're single,\" but the condition of\n\"we're re-ordaining you because there is reason to doubt your first\nordination.\" In other words, an ordination isn't invalidated if the cleric\nis found to be married after all (and never could be)." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Matt +\n\nInferiors revolt in order that they may be equal, and equals that they may\nbe superior. Such is the state of mind which creates revolutions.\nAristotle (384-322 B.C.), Politics, bk. V, ch. 2" } ] }, { "message_id": "<994CBC44-1EC4-425C-83EA-2E0277D22385@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-04-24T03:03:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is this thing on?", "in_reply_to": "<988282.64235.qm@web50706.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Been awfully quiet around here lately. Did everyone get eaten by a \nwerewolf?\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<272706220904232004g4aac3495j890c06e5baa3d1bd@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-24T03:04:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is this thing on?", "in_reply_to": "<994CBC44-1EC4-425C-83EA-2E0277D22385@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I might have been. I'm not making promises.\n\n-L." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 10:03 PM, Adam Thornton wrote:\nBeen awfully quiet around here lately. “Did everyone get eaten by a\nwerewolf”\n\nAdam\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Bryan Alexander", "address": "bryan.alexander at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-24T03:05:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is this thing on?", "in_reply_to": "<272706220904232004g4aac3495j890c06e5baa3d1bd@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've been rereading the stories Clute listed as his favorite Wolfe, mostly\nnovellas." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 11:04 PM, Lane Haygood wrote:\nI might have been. I'm not making promises.\n\n-L.\n\nOn Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 10:03 PM, Adam Thornton wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Been awfully quiet around here lately. Did everyone get eaten by a\nwerewolf?\n\nAdam\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6798.67.142.130.13.1240542500.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-04-24T03:08:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is this thing on?", "in_reply_to": "<994CBC44-1EC4-425C-83EA-2E0277D22385@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Shhh.\n\nWe're meditating.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Been awfully quiet around here lately. Did everyone get eaten by a\nwerewolf?\n\nAdam\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-04-24T03:12:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is this thing on?", "in_reply_to": "<6798.67.142.130.13.1240542500.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend.\n\nInside a dog (or presumably other canid), it's too dark to see.\n\nBut perfect for meditation.\n\nAdam" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Apr 23, 2009, at 10:08 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nShhh.\n\nWe're meditating.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Been awfully quiet around here lately. Did everyone get eaten by a\nwerewolf?\n\nAdam\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<10464.67.142.130.13.1240543219.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-04-24T03:20:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is this thing on?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But then, how to answer the question;\n\nWhere wolf?\n\n\n??\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend.\n\nInside a dog (or presumably other canid), it's too dark to see.\n\nBut perfect for meditation.\n\nAdam\n\n\nOn Apr 23, 2009, at 10:08 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Shhh.\n\nWe're meditating.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Been awfully quiet around here lately. Did everyone get eaten by a\nwerewolf?\n\nAdam\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0904232028u66f63962kbab85274261a5a1b@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-24T03:28:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is this thing on?", "in_reply_to": "<10464.67.142.130.13.1240543219.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Where wolf?\n\nWolf here!\n\nGood wolf!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 11:20 PM, wrote:\nBut then, how to answer the question;\n\nWhere wolf?\n\n\n?\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend.\n\nInside a dog (or presumably other canid), it's too dark to see.\n\nBut perfect for meditation.\n\nAdam\n\n\nOn Apr 23, 2009, at 10:08 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Shhh.\n\nWe're meditating.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Been awfully quiet around here lately. Did everyone get eaten by a\nwerewolf?\n\nAdam\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<683893.66923.qm@web37601.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-04-24T04:03:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is this thing on?", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0904232028u66f63962kbab85274261a5a1b@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oreb, you seem so...hairy and...canine...\n\n\n\n\n\nWhere wolf?\n\nWolf here!\n\nGood wolf!\n\n\nOn Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 11:20 PM, wrote:\n\nBut then, how to answer the question;\n\nWhere wolf?\n\n\n??\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend.\n\nInside a dog (or presumably other canid), it's too dark to see.\n\nBut perfect for meditation.\n\nAdam\n\n\nOn Apr 23, 2009, at 10:08 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Shhh.\n\nWe're meditating.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Been awfully quiet around here lately. Did everyone get eaten by a\nwerewolf?\n\nAdam\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1483377908-1240548409-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-412092344-@bxe1115.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>", "from": { "name": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net", "address": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2009-04-24T04:46:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is this thing on?", "in_reply_to": "<683893.66923.qm@web37601.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm in the middle of 5 countries in 10 days in SE Asia...don't know if GW has fans in Malasyia\nHere's one...what happened to Mucor at the end of SS? Why didn' she leave to the Whorl with the rest???\n------Original Message------\nFrom: Adam Thornton\nSender: urth-bounces at lists.urth.net\nTo: The Urth Mailing List\nReplyTo: The Urth Mailing List\nSent: Apr 23, 2009 8:03 PM\nSubject: (urth) Is this thing on?\n\nBeen awfully quiet around here lately. Did everyone get eaten by a \nwerewolf?\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49F1CAEA.2090108@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-04-24T14:21:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is this thing on?", "in_reply_to": "<1483377908-1240548409-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-412092344-@bxe1115.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good Wolfe!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 8\nDate: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 21:03:04 -0700 (PDT)\nFrom: Craig Brewer \nSubject: Re: (urth) Is this thing on?\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: <683893.66923.qm at web37601.mail.mud.yahoo.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"us-ascii\"\n\nOreb, you seem so...hairy and...canine..." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370904240846n145a5f1cobc9755eb5eaa51f3@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-24T15:46:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is this thing on?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 8:05 PM, Bryan Alexander\n wrote:\nI've been rereading the stories Clute listed as his favorite Wolfe, mostly\nnovellas." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Where's this list?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<61119CF2-AA40-4925-869F-2ED6E5281132@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-04-24T17:25:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is this thing on?", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370904240846n145a5f1cobc9755eb5eaa51f3@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hey, random Oreb sighting!\n\nhttp://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=532\n\nPanel 3.\n\nWell, sorta.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<48477.90800.qm@web32403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-04-25T00:25:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Is this thing on?", "in_reply_to": "<61119CF2-AA40-4925-869F-2ED6E5281132@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've been on a strange noir kick, re-reading 100 bullets (the series is finally done, sniff), Ed Brubaker's Criminal, and Kris Saknussemm's Private Midnight (which is fantastic until the last thirty pages, but wraps things up too neatly at the end) I thought it was going to be like Sharp Teeth (speaking of werewolves) but they have nothing in common really except the noir angle. Sharp Teeth is f'ing awesome btw. LA werewolf noir in iambic pentameter. You have to read it to believe it.\n\nDon\n\nDoggerel\nwww.don-doggett.blogspot.com\nMonkeypish\nwww.monkeypish.blogspot.com" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Thu, 4/23/09, Adam Thornton wrote:\nFrom: Adam Thornton \nSubject: (urth) Is this thing on?" } ] } ] }