{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5411", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5411, "subject": "Urth Digest, Vol 56, Issue 37", "messages": 53, "voices": 13, "first": "2009-04-16T18:04:26+00:00", "last": "2009-04-18T09:05:06+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<49E7732A.7000300@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-04-16T18:04:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 56, Issue 37", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Doesn't the style of narration depend entirely on the narrator and his/her circumstances? That is, how else should the narrator of LS have narrated?\n\nThat scene-by scene style, without introspection, was certainly a shift after Severian's many-layered and discursive account. But Silk doesn't narrate LS." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 20:26:51 -0700 (PDT)\nFrom: Jerry Friedman \nSubject: Re: (urth) Weekly blog links\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: <925508.79653.qm at web50710.mail.re2.yahoo.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1\n\n\n\n\n\nAnd we didn't need LS to consist entirely of dramatic\nscenes, in the sense of \"The Cat in the Starfleet's\nAttic\". I'm glad that in NS and SS, our narrators get to\nruminate occasionally." } ] }, { "message_id": "<273409710904161109i5d603181o755d9a445d62ccdb@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-16T18:09:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 56, Issue 37", "in_reply_to": "<49E7732A.7000300@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Having just read through both LS and SS, one of my favorite aspects, minor\nthough it may be, is that in LS we have Horns voice, which we think is Silk,\nand in SS we have Silks voice, which we think is Horns. They tell each\nothers stories, and the style of their narrative voice greatly affects the\ntelling. There is something so resonant in this for me. Just a brilliant\nstroke.\n\nI'm still on the fence about the Nettle/Vadsig/Hide voice of the Whorl\nnarrative in RttW.\n\nAlso, I guess in fact in LS we don't JUST have horns voice, but Nettle's\ntoo. Which makes here the only common narrative voice between the two\nworks. (Holy spirit?)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 11:04 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nDoesn't the style of narration depend entirely on the narrator and his/her\ncircumstances? That is, how else should the narrator of LS have narrated?\n\nThat scene-by scene style, without introspection, was certainly a shift\nafter Severian's many-layered and discursive account. But Silk doesn't\nnarrate LS.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 20:26:51 -0700 (PDT)\nFrom: Jerry Friedman \nSubject: Re: (urth) Weekly blog links\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: <925508.79653.qm at web50710.mail.re2.yahoo.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1\n\n\n\n\n\nAnd we didn't need LS to consist entirely of dramatic\nscenes, in the sense of \"The Cat in the Starfleet's\nAttic\". I'm glad that in NS and SS, our narrators get to\nruminate occasionally.\n\n\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 090416-0, 04/16/2009\nTested on: 4/16/2009 2:04:27 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0904161126u598860a6y49fcb7abec5256f0@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-16T18:26:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 56, Issue 37", "in_reply_to": "<273409710904161109i5d603181o755d9a445d62ccdb@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of course, there's another layer of complexity here.\nI'm currently midway through Return to the Whorl, where SilkHorn makes\nseveral references to his theory that the Oreb of SS is not the Oreb of LS,\ndespite their apparently identical behavior except when Scylla is acting\nthrough Oreb. This bothered me the first time I read it, but I took it as\njust another layer of uncertainty, melancholy, and alienation--maybe even\nthe beloved pet from the first series is an imposter.\n\nWell, I now think that was wrong. To me, it always comes back to the idea\nthat by imitating someone, you become them--Incus was the first to spell it\nout, but the Outsider later seems to confirm it to Silk, which indicates to\nme that Wolfe thinks it's very important--important enough to repeat and\nimportant enough to have the One True God say it.\n\nHorn's skill of imitating Silk allowed him to write Silk's story. It also\nallowed him to almost become Silk without noticing it--SilkHorn's insistence\nthat he is really just Horn acting like Silk convinces no one except, at\ntimes, himself.\n\nI think the character I'll call \"Oreb(?)\" is a reflection of that. In RttW,\nwhen SilkHorn first meets Oreb(?), he asks if he \"knew\" the original Oreb,\nand then asks \"Did he teach you how to talk?\" What I think Wolfe is trying\nto flag in that scene is that, in a sense, it doesn't matter if Oreb(?) is\nOreb or not--he's functionally Oreb because by imitating Oreb, he has become\nhim. The soul, in LS/SS, may be almost as simple as diction + habituation.\n\nObviously this also explains the somewhat lazy use of exaggerated diction\n(Patera Incus, Patera, that, is, um, augur, hey? Remora, d'yeh remember Pig?\n Yeh do!, and all of the Dorp people.) Wolfe is good, but the challenge of\nwriting people's souls into their diction and vice-versa is tough unless\ncharacters have idiosyncratic modes of speech." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 2:09 PM, Jordon Flato wrote:\nHaving just read through both LS and SS, one of my favorite aspects, minor\nthough it may be, is that in LS we have Horns voice, which we think is Silk,\nand in SS we have Silks voice, which we think is Horns. They tell each\nothers stories, and the style of their narrative voice greatly affects the\ntelling. There is something so resonant in this for me. Just a brilliant\nstroke.\n\nI'm still on the fence about the Nettle/Vadsig/Hide voice of the Whorl\nnarrative in RttW.\n\nAlso, I guess in fact in LS we don't JUST have horns voice, but Nettle's\ntoo. Which makes here the only common narrative voice between the two\nworks. (Holy spirit?)\n\nOn Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 11:04 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Doesn't the style of narration depend entirely on the narrator and his/her\ncircumstances? That is, how else should the narrator of LS have narrated?\n\nThat scene-by scene style, without introspection, was certainly a shift\nafter Severian's many-layered and discursive account. But Silk doesn't\nnarrate LS.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 20:26:51 -0700 (PDT)\nFrom: Jerry Friedman \nSubject: Re: (urth) Weekly blog links" } ] }, { "message_id": "<273409710904161131u6171e582pd6e2864de0dc4cb9@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-16T18:31:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 56, Issue 37", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0904161126u598860a6y49fcb7abec5256f0@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hmmm. Besides Silkhorn's ruminations, I can't see any evidence at all that\nOreb would not be Oreb. Certainly, there are changes because of Scylla, but\nit would make very little sense to me that Oreb was another bird imitaing\nOreb. As a connecting Avatar between Silk and Silkhorn, he makes a great\ndeal of thematic sense to me.\n\nAs an imitation of the orignial Oreb, it has far less resonance to me, even\nwith your good analysis of the siginficance of imitation above.\n\nI've always seen Oreb, like Mucor, to always see the 'soul' of the person he\nis seeing. His change of seeing Jahlee from Bad Thing to Good Girl being a\nprime example.\n\nOreb, like Mucor, is above the trickery and confusion of the multiple\nidentiy crises.\n\nExcept, of course, he isn't. Because he's Scylla. WTF?\n\n*implodes*" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 11:26 AM, John Watkins wrote:\nOf course, there's another layer of complexity here.\nI'm currently midway through Return to the Whorl, where SilkHorn makes\nseveral references to his theory that the Oreb of SS is not the Oreb of LS,\ndespite their apparently identical behavior except when Scylla is acting\nthrough Oreb. This bothered me the first time I read it, but I took it as\njust another layer of uncertainty, melancholy, and alienation--maybe even\nthe beloved pet from the first series is an imposter.\n\nWell, I now think that was wrong. To me, it always comes back to the idea\nthat by imitating someone, you become them--Incus was the first to spell it\nout, but the Outsider later seems to confirm it to Silk, which indicates to\nme that Wolfe thinks it's very important--important enough to repeat and\nimportant enough to have the One True God say it.\n\nHorn's skill of imitating Silk allowed him to write Silk's story. It also\nallowed him to almost become Silk without noticing it--SilkHorn's insistence\nthat he is really just Horn acting like Silk convinces no one except, at\ntimes, himself.\n\nI think the character I'll call \"Oreb(?)\" is a reflection of that. In\nRttW, when SilkHorn first meets Oreb(?), he asks if he \"knew\" the original\nOreb, and then asks \"Did he teach you how to talk?\" What I think Wolfe is\ntrying to flag in that scene is that, in a sense, it doesn't matter if\nOreb(?) is Oreb or not--he's functionally Oreb because by imitating Oreb,\nhe has become him. The soul, in LS/SS, may be almost as simple as diction\n+ habituation.\n\nObviously this also explains the somewhat lazy use of exaggerated diction\n(Patera Incus, Patera, that, is, um, augur, hey? Remora, d'yeh remember\nPig? Yeh do!, and all of the Dorp people.) Wolfe is good, but the\nchallenge of writing people's souls into their diction and vice-versa is\ntough unless characters have idiosyncratic modes of speech.\n\n\nOn Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 2:09 PM, Jordon Flato wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Having just read through both LS and SS, one of my favorite aspects, minor\nthough it may be, is that in LS we have Horns voice, which we think is Silk,\nand in SS we have Silks voice, which we think is Horns. They tell each\nothers stories, and the style of their narrative voice greatly affects the\ntelling. There is something so resonant in this for me. Just a brilliant\nstroke.\n\nI'm still on the fence about the Nettle/Vadsig/Hide voice of the Whorl\nnarrative in RttW.\n\nAlso, I guess in fact in LS we don't JUST have horns voice, but Nettle's\ntoo. Which makes here the only common narrative voice between the two\nworks. (Holy spirit?)\n\n On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 11:04 AM, David Stockhoff <\ndstockhoff at verizon.net> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Doesn't the style of narration depend entirely on the narrator and\nhis/her circumstances? That is, how else should the narrator of LS have\nnarrated?\n\nThat scene-by scene style, without introspection, was certainly a shift\nafter Severian's many-layered and discursive account. But Silk doesn't\nnarrate LS.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 20:26:51 -0700 (PDT)\nFrom: Jerry Friedman \nSubject: Re: (urth) Weekly blog links" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0904161137t2f35529bk7eeedbb1101be2e@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-16T18:37:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 56, Issue 37", "in_reply_to": "<273409710904161131u6171e582pd6e2864de0dc4cb9@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh, I agree--I think he's definitely still Oreb. On the level of mere plot,\nSilkHorn doubts Oreb(?) is Oreb because 1) he's suppressing Silk's memories\nof the last 20 years, which may have involved continuous association with\nOreb, and 2) the Horn side has no idea how old night choughs can get. But\nI think his instinct, that Oreb is another bird perfectly imitating Oreb, is\nstill supposed to tell us something about the movement of souls in the book\nand about SilkHorn's understanding of himself--I think there's a bit in On\nBlue's Waters where SilkHorn says he isn't Silk but has done his best to\nimitate him for his entire life. This is wrong, but it's his justification\nof himself." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 2:31 PM, Jordon Flato wrote:\nHmmm. Besides Silkhorn's ruminations, I can't see any evidence at all that\nOreb would not be Oreb. Certainly, there are changes because of Scylla, but\nit would make very little sense to me that Oreb was another bird imitaing\nOreb. As a connecting Avatar between Silk and Silkhorn, he makes a great\ndeal of thematic sense to me.\n\nAs an imitation of the orignial Oreb, it has far less resonance to me, even\nwith your good analysis of the siginficance of imitation above.\n\nI've always seen Oreb, like Mucor, to always see the 'soul' of the person\nhe is seeing. His change of seeing Jahlee from Bad Thing to Good Girl being\na prime example.\n\nOreb, like Mucor, is above the trickery and confusion of the multiple\nidentiy crises.\n\nExcept, of course, he isn't. Because he's Scylla. WTF?\n\n*implodes*\n\nOn Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 11:26 AM, John Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Of course, there's another layer of complexity here.\nI'm currently midway through Return to the Whorl, where SilkHorn makes\nseveral references to his theory that the Oreb of SS is not the Oreb of LS,\ndespite their apparently identical behavior except when Scylla is acting\nthrough Oreb. This bothered me the first time I read it, but I took it as\njust another layer of uncertainty, melancholy, and alienation--maybe even\nthe beloved pet from the first series is an imposter.\n\nWell, I now think that was wrong. To me, it always comes back to the idea\nthat by imitating someone, you become them--Incus was the first to spell it\nout, but the Outsider later seems to confirm it to Silk, which indicates to\nme that Wolfe thinks it's very important--important enough to repeat and\nimportant enough to have the One True God say it.\n\nHorn's skill of imitating Silk allowed him to write Silk's story. It also\nallowed him to almost become Silk without noticing it--SilkHorn's insistence\nthat he is really just Horn acting like Silk convinces no one except, at\ntimes, himself.\n\nI think the character I'll call \"Oreb(?)\" is a reflection of that. In\nRttW, when SilkHorn first meets Oreb(?), he asks if he \"knew\" the original\nOreb, and then asks \"Did he teach you how to talk?\" What I think Wolfe is\ntrying to flag in that scene is that, in a sense, it doesn't matter if\nOreb(?) is Oreb or not--he's functionally Oreb because by imitating Oreb,\nhe has become him. The soul, in LS/SS, may be almost as simple as\ndiction + habituation.\n\nObviously this also explains the somewhat lazy use of exaggerated diction\n(Patera Incus, Patera, that, is, um, augur, hey? Remora, d'yeh remember\nPig? Yeh do!, and all of the Dorp people.) Wolfe is good, but the\nchallenge of writing people's souls into their diction and vice-versa is\ntough unless characters have idiosyncratic modes of speech.\n\n\nOn Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 2:09 PM, Jordon Flato wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Having just read through both LS and SS, one of my favorite aspects,\nminor though it may be, is that in LS we have Horns voice, which we think is\nSilk, and in SS we have Silks voice, which we think is Horns. They tell\neach others stories, and the style of their narrative voice greatly affects\nthe telling. There is something so resonant in this for me. Just a\nbrilliant stroke.\n\nI'm still on the fence about the Nettle/Vadsig/Hide voice of the Whorl\nnarrative in RttW.\n\nAlso, I guess in fact in LS we don't JUST have horns voice, but Nettle's\ntoo. Which makes here the only common narrative voice between the two\nworks. (Holy spirit?)\n\n On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 11:04 AM, David Stockhoff <\ndstockhoff at verizon.net> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Doesn't the style of narration depend entirely on the narrator and\nhis/her circumstances? That is, how else should the narrator of LS have\nnarrated?\n\nThat scene-by scene style, without introspection, was certainly a shift\nafter Severian's many-layered and discursive account. But Silk doesn't\nnarrate LS.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 20:26:51 -0700 (PDT)\nFrom: Jerry Friedman \nSubject: Re: (urth) Weekly blog links" } ] }, { "message_id": "<273409710904161218l42e8b20bs503f54dace89f03b@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-16T19:18:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 56, Issue 37", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0904161137t2f35529bk7eeedbb1101be2e@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I see. Yes, that is a good reading of it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 11:37 AM, John Watkins wrote:\nOh, I agree--I think he's definitely still Oreb. On the level of mere\nplot, SilkHorn doubts Oreb(?) is Oreb because 1) he's suppressing Silk's\nmemories of the last 20 years, which may have involved continuous\nassociation with Oreb, and 2) the Horn side has no idea how old night\nchoughs can get. But I think his instinct, that Oreb is another bird\nperfectly imitating Oreb, is still supposed to tell us something about the\nmovement of souls in the book and about SilkHorn's understanding of\nhimself--I think there's a bit in On Blue's Waters where SilkHorn says he\nisn't Silk but has done his best to imitate him for his entire life. This\nis wrong, but it's his justification of himself.\n\n\nOn Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 2:31 PM, Jordon Flato wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Hmmm. Besides Silkhorn's ruminations, I can't see any evidence at all\nthat Oreb would not be Oreb. Certainly, there are changes because of\nScylla, but it would make very little sense to me that Oreb was another bird\nimitaing Oreb. As a connecting Avatar between Silk and Silkhorn, he makes a\ngreat deal of thematic sense to me.\n\nAs an imitation of the orignial Oreb, it has far less resonance to me,\neven with your good analysis of the siginficance of imitation above.\n\nI've always seen Oreb, like Mucor, to always see the 'soul' of the person\nhe is seeing. His change of seeing Jahlee from Bad Thing to Good Girl being\na prime example.\n\nOreb, like Mucor, is above the trickery and confusion of the multiple\nidentiy crises.\n\nExcept, of course, he isn't. Because he's Scylla. WTF?\n\n*implodes*\n\nOn Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 11:26 AM, John Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Of course, there's another layer of complexity here.\nI'm currently midway through Return to the Whorl, where SilkHorn makes\nseveral references to his theory that the Oreb of SS is not the Oreb of LS,\ndespite their apparently identical behavior except when Scylla is acting\nthrough Oreb. This bothered me the first time I read it, but I took it as\njust another layer of uncertainty, melancholy, and alienation--maybe even\nthe beloved pet from the first series is an imposter.\n\nWell, I now think that was wrong. To me, it always comes back to the\nidea that by imitating someone, you become them--Incus was the first to\nspell it out, but the Outsider later seems to confirm it to Silk, which\nindicates to me that Wolfe thinks it's very important--important enough\nto repeat and important enough to have the One True God say it.\n\nHorn's skill of imitating Silk allowed him to write Silk's story. It\nalso allowed him to almost become Silk without noticing it--SilkHorn's\ninsistence that he is really just Horn acting like Silk convinces no one\nexcept, at times, himself.\n\nI think the character I'll call \"Oreb(?)\" is a reflection of that. In\nRttW, when SilkHorn first meets Oreb(?), he asks if he \"knew\" the original\nOreb, and then asks \"Did he teach you how to talk?\" What I think Wolfe is\ntrying to flag in that scene is that, in a sense, it doesn't matter if\nOreb(?) is Oreb or not--he's functionally Oreb because by imitating Oreb,\nhe has become him. The soul, in LS/SS, may be almost as simple as\ndiction + habituation.\n\nObviously this also explains the somewhat lazy use of exaggerated diction\n(Patera Incus, Patera, that, is, um, augur, hey? Remora, d'yeh remember\nPig? Yeh do!, and all of the Dorp people.) Wolfe is good, but the\nchallenge of writing people's souls into their diction and vice-versa is\ntough unless characters have idiosyncratic modes of speech.\n\n\nOn Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 2:09 PM, Jordon Flato wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Having just read through both LS and SS, one of my favorite aspects,\nminor though it may be, is that in LS we have Horns voice, which we think is\nSilk, and in SS we have Silks voice, which we think is Horns. They tell\neach others stories, and the style of their narrative voice greatly affects\nthe telling. There is something so resonant in this for me. Just a\nbrilliant stroke.\n\nI'm still on the fence about the Nettle/Vadsig/Hide voice of the Whorl\nnarrative in RttW.\n\nAlso, I guess in fact in LS we don't JUST have horns voice, but Nettle's\ntoo. Which makes here the only common narrative voice between the two\nworks. (Holy spirit?)\n\n On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 11:04 AM, David Stockhoff <\ndstockhoff at verizon.net> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Doesn't the style of narration depend entirely on the narrator and\nhis/her circumstances? That is, how else should the narrator of LS have\nnarrated?\n\nThat scene-by scene style, without introspection, was certainly a shift\nafter Severian's many-layered and discursive account. But Silk doesn't\nnarrate LS.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 20:26:51 -0700 (PDT)\nFrom: Jerry Friedman \nSubject: Re: (urth) Weekly blog links" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Robin Dunn", "address": "bigbadgerjohnny at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-16T19:52:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 56, Issue 37", "in_reply_to": "<49E7732A.7000300@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Quick question for you guys:\n\nWhich short story of Wolfe's do you think would be the easiest to\nfilm, where some of the moral ambiguity and complexity of Wolfe could\nshow through on screen?\n\nI'm not a connoisseur of his short work, and it's often struck me as\ndryer, but would love to hear your thoughts.\n\nCheers,\nRobin" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 11:04 AM, David Stockhoff\n wrote:\nDoesn't the style of narration depend entirely on the narrator and his/her\ncircumstances? That is, how else should the narrator of LS have narrated?\n\nThat scene-by scene style, without introspection, was certainly a shift\nafter Severian's many-layered and discursive account. But Silk doesn't\nnarrate LS.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 20:26:51 -0700 (PDT)\nFrom: Jerry Friedman \nSubject: Re: (urth) Weekly blog links" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0904161255td012df0g2ba9c043d05fa6e8@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-16T19:55:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 56, Issue 37", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Long Sun would be an interesting set of films or, say, HBO series.\nFifth Head, the original story, would probably be my choice for a discrete\nmovie." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 3:52 PM, Robin Dunn wrote:\nQuick question for you guys:\n\nWhich short story of Wolfe's do you think would be the easiest to\nfilm, where some of the moral ambiguity and complexity of Wolfe could\nshow through on screen?\n\nI'm not a connoisseur of his short work, and it's often struck me as\ndryer, but would love to hear your thoughts.\n\nCheers,\nRobin\n\n\n\n\n\nOn Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 11:04 AM, David Stockhoff\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Doesn't the style of narration depend entirely on the narrator and\nhis/her\ncircumstances? That is, how else should the narrator of LS have narrated?\n\nThat scene-by scene style, without introspection, was certainly a shift\nafter Severian's many-layered and discursive account. But Silk doesn't\nnarrate LS.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 20:26:51 -0700 (PDT)\nFrom: Jerry Friedman \nSubject: Re: (urth) Weekly blog links" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Robin Dunn", "address": "bigbadgerjohnny at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-16T20:09:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 56, Issue 37", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0904161255td012df0g2ba9c043d05fa6e8@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Fifth head was definitely my first choice, though the robot would\nrequire a medium amount of money :)\n\nI was thinking of something that would translate into a good 5 to 15\nminute film." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 12:55 PM, John Watkins wrote:\nLong Sun would be an interesting set of films or, say, HBO series.\nFifth Head, the original story, would probably be my choice for a discrete\nmovie.\nOn Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 3:52 PM, Robin Dunn \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Quick question for you guys:\n\nWhich short story of Wolfe's do you think would be the easiest to\nfilm, where some of the moral ambiguity and complexity of Wolfe could\nshow through on screen?\n\nI'm not a connoisseur of his short work, and it's often struck me as\ndryer, but would love to hear your thoughts.\n\nCheers,\nRobin\n\n\n\n\n\nOn Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 11:04 AM, David Stockhoff\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Doesn't the style of narration depend entirely on the narrator and\nhis/her\ncircumstances? That is, how else should the narrator of LS have\nnarrated?\n\nThat scene-by scene style, without introspection, was certainly a shift\nafter Severian's many-layered and discursive account. But Silk doesn't\nnarrate LS.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 20:26:51 -0700 (PDT)\nFrom: Jerry Friedman \nSubject: Re: (urth) Weekly blog links" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370904161314j23363e46wb3b04272a3762700@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-16T20:14:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 56, Issue 37", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 1:09 PM, Robin Dunn wrote:\nI was thinking of something that would translate into a good 5 to 15\nminute film." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "While to do it right would take a bit longer than 15 minutes, \"The\nDetective of Dreams\" would be fairly inexpensive to film and\nwould (I think) translate fairly well." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<15502.67.142.130.46.1239913002.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-04-16T20:16:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 56, Issue 37", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There are people working on The Death Of Dr Island:\n\nhttp://www.doctorisland.com/\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Quick question for you guys:\n\nWhich short story of Wolfe's do you think would be the easiest to\nfilm, where some of the moral ambiguity and complexity of Wolfe could\nshow through on screen?\n\nI'm not a connoisseur of his short work, and it's often struck me as\ndryer, but would love to hear your thoughts.\n\nCheers,\nRobin\n\n\n\n\n\nOn Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 11:04 AM, David Stockhoff\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Doesn't the style of narration depend entirely on the narrator and\nhis/her\ncircumstances? That is, how else should the narrator of LS have\nnarrated?\n\nThat scene-by scene style, without introspection, was certainly a shift\nafter Severian's many-layered and discursive account. But Silk doesn't\nnarrate LS.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 20:26:51 -0700 (PDT)\nFrom: Jerry Friedman \nSubject: Re: (urth) Weekly blog links" } ] }, { "message_id": "<216146.20364.qm@web50711.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-04-16T20:19:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 56, Issue 37", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370904161314j23363e46wb3b04272a3762700@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "--- On Thu, 4/16/09, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nI was thinking of something that would translate into\na good 5 to 15 minute film." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "While to do it right would take a bit longer than 15\nminutes, \"The\nDetective of Dreams\" would be fairly inexpensive to\nfilm and\nwould (I think) translate fairly well." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Speaking of which, \"La Befana\" would work too, though I\ndon't like it as well as \"The Detective of Dreams\".\n\nHey, how 'bout \"The War Beneath the Tree\"? I think that one\ncould have real potential as an animated feature. :-)\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<2538.67.142.130.46.1239913396.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-04-16T20:23:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 56, Issue 37", "in_reply_to": "<216146.20364.qm@web50711.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hey, how 'bout \"The War Beneath the Tree\"? I think that one\ncould have real potential as an animated feature. :-)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That would be excellent for the Christmas market, oh yes.\n\nShow it to every three year old in the world, man.\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<59BF7A3369564BAEAAC9546328A08A68@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-16T20:27:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 56, Issue 37", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Which short story of Wolfe's do you think would be the easiest to\nfilm, where some of the moral ambiguity and complexity of Wolfe could\nshow through on screen?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Counting Cats in Zanzibar would receive as little or as much FX as one chose \nto receive and the story could be told in 15 minutes. The dialog could be \nconverted directly to the adapted screenplay. It utilizes scifi concepts \nalready well understood much of the audience, so very little exposition is \nnecessary.\n\nPerhaps a short scene could be added to dramatize the three laws of \nrobotics.\n\nJ.\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<5c3e602f0904161328o7192bc8ch2659bd46e7ca46dd@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Rob Thornton", "address": "oblate777 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-16T20:28:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 56, Issue 37", "in_reply_to": "<2538.67.142.130.46.1239913396.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"When I Was Ming the Merciless\" would also make a good short. If you\ndo it without shifting perspectives, it can be filmed in one room with\ntwo people.\n\nrob t." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 4:23 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Hey, how 'bout \"The War Beneath the Tree\"? ?I think that one\ncould have real potential as an animated feature. :-)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That would be excellent for the Christmas market, oh yes.\n\nShow it to every three year old in the world, man.\n\n\n\n\n.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Robin Dunn", "address": "bigbadgerjohnny at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-16T20:34:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 56, Issue 37", "in_reply_to": "<5c3e602f0904161328o7192bc8ch2659bd46e7ca46dd@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks guys, you rock. :)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 1:28 PM, Rob Thornton wrote:\n\"When I Was Ming the Merciless\" would also make a good short. If you\ndo it without shifting perspectives, it can be filmed in one room with\ntwo people.\n\nrob t.\n\nOn Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 4:23 PM, ? wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Hey, how 'bout \"The War Beneath the Tree\"? ?I think that one\ncould have real potential as an animated feature. :-)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That would be excellent for the Christmas market, oh yes.\n\nShow it to every three year old in the world, man.\n\n\n\n\n.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1A1E3E2F0AA0465BA355C91FC14C392F@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-16T20:37:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 56, Issue 37", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0904161137t2f35529bk7eeedbb1101be2e@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Hmmm. Besides Silkhorn's ruminations,\nI can't see any evidence at all that Oreb would not be Oreb." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Oh, I agree--I think he's definitely still Oreb. [snip]\nBut I think his instinct, that Oreb is another bird perfectly\nimitating Oreb, is still supposed to tell us something about\nthe movement of souls in the book and about SilkHorn's\nunderstanding of himself--I think there's a bit in\nOBW where SilkHorn says he isn't Silk but has done his\nbest to imitate him for his entire life." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, he's not the same Oreb because he's Scylla.\nNo one else seems to wonder that Oreb was able to die and resurrect himself. \nIt makes me believe that someone was possessing him at that time. But that's \njust me. But that would doubly make the Oreb of most of SS different from \nthe Oreb of most of LS.\n\nFWIW I think the whole speech is pointing to the fact that the Neighbor has \nbeen imitating Horn who imitated Silk. The whole thing harkens back to VRT \nof \"The Fifth Head of Cerberus\".\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0904161341k4d71ff54vc4d30ac91580989c@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-16T20:41:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 56, Issue 37", "in_reply_to": "<1A1E3E2F0AA0465BA355C91FC14C392F@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You mean waaaaaaay back in Nightside?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 4:37 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nHmmm. Besides Silkhorn's ruminations,\nI can't see any evidence at all that Oreb would not be Oreb." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Oh, I agree--I think he's definitely still Oreb. [snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But I think his instinct, that Oreb is another bird perfectly\nimitating Oreb, is still supposed to tell us something about\nthe movement of souls in the book and about SilkHorn's\nunderstanding of himself--I think there's a bit in\nOBW where SilkHorn says he isn't Silk but has done his\nbest to imitate him for his entire life." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, he's not the same Oreb because he's Scylla.\nNo one else seems to wonder that Oreb was able to die and resurrect\nhimself. It makes me believe that someone was possessing him at that time.\nBut that's just me. But that would doubly make the Oreb of most of SS\ndifferent from the Oreb of most of LS.\n\nFWIW I think the whole speech is pointing to the fact that the Neighbor has\nbeen imitating Horn who imitated Silk. The whole thing harkens back to VRT\nof \"The Fifth Head of Cerberus\".\n\nJ.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<273409710904161346o308f8104w78d085d372899158@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-16T20:46:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 56, Issue 37", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0904161341k4d71ff54vc4d30ac91580989c@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James,\nIn this reading of SS I've been looking for NeighberHorn clues, and just\ndon't find anything at all that seems viable. It's a nifty theory, but it\njust seems to be a huge stretch to me, and I've been trying to pay close\nattention.\n\nHave you gone back and reread it lately to look for more evidence? I'd be\ninterested to follow that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 1:41 PM, John Watkins wrote:\nYou mean waaaaaaay back in Nightside?\n\n\nOn Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 4:37 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " Hmmm. Besides Silkhorn's ruminations,\nI can't see any evidence at all that Oreb would not be Oreb." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Oh, I agree--I think he's definitely still Oreb. [snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "But I think his instinct, that Oreb is another bird perfectly\nimitating Oreb, is still supposed to tell us something about\nthe movement of souls in the book and about SilkHorn's\nunderstanding of himself--I think there's a bit in\nOBW where SilkHorn says he isn't Silk but has done his\nbest to imitate him for his entire life." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, he's not the same Oreb because he's Scylla.\nNo one else seems to wonder that Oreb was able to die and resurrect\nhimself. It makes me believe that someone was possessing him at that time.\nBut that's just me. But that would doubly make the Oreb of most of SS\ndifferent from the Oreb of most of LS.\n\nFWIW I think the whole speech is pointing to the fact that the Neighbor\nhas been imitating Horn who imitated Silk. The whole thing harkens back to\nVRT of \"The Fifth Head of Cerberus\".\n\nJ.\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<273409710904161346j4c119e25n6d75dcb42c9a81f@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-16T20:46:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 56, Issue 37", "in_reply_to": "<273409710904161346o308f8104w78d085d372899158@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And wait, why am I not remembering when Oreb died in LS?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 1:46 PM, Jordon Flato wrote:\nJames,\nIn this reading of SS I've been looking for NeighberHorn clues, and just\ndon't find anything at all that seems viable. It's a nifty theory, but it\njust seems to be a huge stretch to me, and I've been trying to pay close\nattention.\n\nHave you gone back and reread it lately to look for more evidence? I'd be\ninterested to follow that.\n\n On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 1:41 PM, John Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You mean waaaaaaay back in Nightside?\n\n\nOn Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 4:37 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " Hmmm. Besides Silkhorn's ruminations,\nI can't see any evidence at all that Oreb would not be Oreb." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Oh, I agree--I think he's definitely still Oreb. [snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "But I think his instinct, that Oreb is another bird perfectly\nimitating Oreb, is still supposed to tell us something about\nthe movement of souls in the book and about SilkHorn's\nunderstanding of himself--I think there's a bit in\nOBW where SilkHorn says he isn't Silk but has done his\nbest to imitate him for his entire life." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Well, he's not the same Oreb because he's Scylla.\nNo one else seems to wonder that Oreb was able to die and resurrect\nhimself. It makes me believe that someone was possessing him at that time.\nBut that's just me. But that would doubly make the Oreb of most of SS\ndifferent from the Oreb of most of LS.\n\nFWIW I think the whole speech is pointing to the fact that the Neighbor\nhas been imitating Horn who imitated Silk. The whole thing harkens back to\nVRT of \"The Fifth Head of Cerberus\".\n\nJ.\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0904161351u7606319eybf26fcf11d40e507@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-16T20:51:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 56, Issue 37", "in_reply_to": "<273409710904161346j4c119e25n6d75dcb42c9a81f@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oreb faints in Nightside right as Silk is about to sacrifice him to the\nOutsider. Silk assumes he's dead, discards the body and returns, after his\nadventure at Blood's, to find Oreb fluttering about.\nIt's a weird scene. Oreb definitely appears to be dead and definitely\nappears to return, and it's weird that an augur, who kills animals with\nregularity, would be fooled by a mere faint." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 4:46 PM, Jordon Flato wrote:\nAnd wait, why am I not remembering when Oreb died in LS?\n\n\nOn Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 1:46 PM, Jordon Flato wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James,\nIn this reading of SS I've been looking for NeighberHorn clues, and just\ndon't find anything at all that seems viable. It's a nifty theory, but it\njust seems to be a huge stretch to me, and I've been trying to pay close\nattention.\n\nHave you gone back and reread it lately to look for more evidence? I'd be\ninterested to follow that.\n\n On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 1:41 PM, John Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": " Hmmm. Besides Silkhorn's ruminations,\nI can't see any evidence at all that Oreb would not be Oreb." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Oh, I agree--I think he's definitely still Oreb. [snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "But I think his instinct, that Oreb is another bird perfectly\nimitating Oreb, is still supposed to tell us something about\nthe movement of souls in the book and about SilkHorn's\nunderstanding of himself--I think there's a bit in\nOBW where SilkHorn says he isn't Silk but has done his\nbest to imitate him for his entire life." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Well, he's not the same Oreb because he's Scylla.\nNo one else seems to wonder that Oreb was able to die and resurrect\nhimself. It makes me believe that someone was possessing him at that time.\nBut that's just me. But that would doubly make the Oreb of most of SS\ndifferent from the Oreb of most of LS.\n\nFWIW I think the whole speech is pointing to the fact that the Neighbor\nhas been imitating Horn who imitated Silk. The whole thing harkens back to\nVRT of \"The Fifth Head of Cerberus\".\n\nJ.\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0904161352y32a7adc8tc9da90bce31e02fb@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-16T20:52:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 56, Issue 37", "in_reply_to": "<273409710904161346j4c119e25n6d75dcb42c9a81f@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oreb faints in Nightside right as Silk is about to sacrifice him to the\nOutsider. Silk assumes he's dead, discards the body and returns, after his\nadventure at Blood's, to find Oreb fluttering about.\nIt's a weird scene. Oreb definitely appears to be dead and definitely\nappears to return, and it's weird that an augur, who kills animals with\nregularity, would be fooled by a mere faint." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 4:46 PM, Jordon Flato wrote:\nAnd wait, why am I not remembering when Oreb died in LS?\n\n\nOn Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 1:46 PM, Jordon Flato wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James,\nIn this reading of SS I've been looking for NeighberHorn clues, and just\ndon't find anything at all that seems viable. It's a nifty theory, but it\njust seems to be a huge stretch to me, and I've been trying to pay close\nattention.\n\nHave you gone back and reread it lately to look for more evidence? I'd be\ninterested to follow that.\n\n On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 1:41 PM, John Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": " Hmmm. Besides Silkhorn's ruminations,\nI can't see any evidence at all that Oreb would not be Oreb." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Oh, I agree--I think he's definitely still Oreb. [snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "But I think his instinct, that Oreb is another bird perfectly\nimitating Oreb, is still supposed to tell us something about\nthe movement of souls in the book and about SilkHorn's\nunderstanding of himself--I think there's a bit in\nOBW where SilkHorn says he isn't Silk but has done his\nbest to imitate him for his entire life." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Well, he's not the same Oreb because he's Scylla.\nNo one else seems to wonder that Oreb was able to die and resurrect\nhimself. It makes me believe that someone was possessing him at that time.\nBut that's just me. But that would doubly make the Oreb of most of SS\ndifferent from the Oreb of most of LS.\n\nFWIW I think the whole speech is pointing to the fact that the Neighbor\nhas been imitating Horn who imitated Silk. The whole thing harkens back to\nVRT of \"The Fifth Head of Cerberus\".\n\nJ.\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-16T21:08:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 56, Issue 37", "in_reply_to": "<273409710904161346j4c119e25n6d75dcb42c9a81f@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In this reading of SS I've been looking for NeighberHorn clues,\nand just don't find anything at all that seems viable.\nIt's a nifty theory, but it just seems to be a huge stretch to me,\nand I've been trying to pay close attention.\nHave you gone back and reread it lately to look for more evidence?\nI'd be interested to follow that." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not yet, but it's on my list of things to do. I'm currently working straight \nthrough from FHoC, Peace, Devil in the Forest, etc etc etc. Still, it will \nbe very hard to overcome \"I just don't see it\".\n\n1) Horn was resurrected from the dead after three days even though Seawrack \nand Babbie were not in any doubt that he was dead. I doubt I'll find more \ncompelling evidence than that.\n\n2) Resurrected Horn shakes hands with a Neighbor who declares that he \nhimself is Horn.\n\n3) The Raja flat out denies that he is the fellow (whose name he forgets) \nthat wore a ring and died on Green and was transferred to a body on the \nWhorl. Yet asserts (a lie) that in fact he is Horn (who died in the pit).\n\nIncidentally, (not that it proves anything, I guess) in interviews Wolfe \nrefers to the narrator of SS as the Raja. Not Horn. Not Silkhorn." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And wait, why am I not remembering when Oreb died in LS?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Chapter 2 of Nightside. Silk bought Oreb to sacrifice him to the Outsider. \nBut just before he could, Oreb dropped dead (a bad sign). And then suddenly \n*he's alive again*! Some people say Oreb was only faking which strikes me as \nvery similar to what some say about dead Horn in the pit.\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<7D2FE7742A114B558695409F58B5F358@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-16T21:15:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 56, Issue 37", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I said: \"I doubt I'll find more compelling evidence than that.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I meant, \"more compelling than those three items.\"\n\nThere is one other that I just remembered. The Raja barely eats. He seems to \nnot really need it. He confesses that he fakes eating a lot. But when Spring \ncomes he is suddenly ravenous. I suppose that does not prove he is a \nNeighbor, but it does suggest that he's not merely human.\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<273409710904161433t14f54bc6s66a276f071d54ac0@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-16T21:33:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 56, Issue 37", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, I note all of those points, and just don't find them compelling,\nsorry. We'll probably just see it differently.\n\nI also just don't see how it adds anything to the thematic content, and to\nme it also takes away from it, which is one of the tests I usually posit\nWolfe Textual theories against.\n\nAgain, don't mean you ain't right, just that I don't see it.\n\nFor instance, seeing someone unmoving at the bottom of a dimly lit pit from\n30 feet, and assuming them dead, does not, to me, seem at all unusual.\n\nAnd as for the neighbor saying \"I am Horn\" I can write more on that later.\nThat one line, if taken by itself, may indicate what you mean. To me, you\nthen have to contort yourself into thematic pretzles to indicate how a\nNeighbor giving permission to a neighbor (horn), is in any way thematically\nor textually intersesting...to me. What would the point of that be? Oh,\nhey, you may not know it yet, but you are a sleeper agent, and we'll get you\nto agree to let us come back to this planet to visit, as a representative\nof...*wink wink*...humanity!\n\nAnyway, I'm really not trying to be dismissive. I see your points, just\ndon't feel them in any way.\n\nAnd Oreb was clearly faking it. Not resurrecting. ;)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 2:08 PM, James Wynn wrote:\n In this reading of SS I've been looking for NeighberHorn clues,\nand just don't find anything at all that seems viable." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's a nifty theory, but it just seems to be a huge stretch to me,\nand I've been trying to pay close attention.\n\nHave you gone back and reread it lately to look for more evidence?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'd be interested to follow that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not yet, but it's on my list of things to do. I'm currently working\nstraight through from FHoC, Peace, Devil in the Forest, etc etc etc. Still,\nit will be very hard to overcome \"I just don't see it\".\n\n1) Horn was resurrected from the dead after three days even though Seawrack\nand Babbie were not in any doubt that he was dead. I doubt I'll find more\ncompelling evidence than that.\n\n2) Resurrected Horn shakes hands with a Neighbor who declares that he\nhimself is Horn.\n\n3) The Raja flat out denies that he is the fellow (whose name he forgets)\nthat wore a ring and died on Green and was transferred to a body on the\nWhorl. Yet asserts (a lie) that in fact he is Horn (who died in the pit).\n\nIncidentally, (not that it proves anything, I guess) in interviews Wolfe\nrefers to the narrator of SS as the Raja. Not Horn. Not Silkhorn.\n\nAnd wait, why am I not remembering when Oreb died in LS?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Chapter 2 of Nightside. Silk bought Oreb to sacrifice him to the Outsider.\nBut just before he could, Oreb dropped dead (a bad sign). And then suddenly\n*he's alive again*! Some people say Oreb was only faking which strikes me as\nvery similar to what some say about dead Horn in the pit.\n\n\nJ.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<533442.76358.qm@web50711.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-04-16T21:36:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 56, Issue 37", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Thu, 4/16/09, James Wynn wrote:\n\n3) The Raja flat out denies that he is the fellow (whose\nname he forgets) that wore a ring and died on Green and was\ntransferred to a body on the Whorl. Yet asserts (a lie) that\nin fact he is Horn (who died in the pit).\n\nIncidentally, (not that it proves anything, I guess) in\ninterviews Wolfe refers to the narrator of SS as the Raja." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\n\nSorry to respond with a spelling correction rather than\nsomething substantive, but it's \"Rajan\".\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0904161437s336ff23h49bf5e3d59f15e69@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-16T21:37:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 56, Issue 37", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 5:08 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not yet, but it's on my list of things to do. I'm currently working\nstraight through from FHoC, Peace, Devil in the Forest, etc etc etc. Still,\nit will be very hard to overcome \"I just don't see it\".\n\n1) Horn was resurrected from the dead after three days even though Seawrack\nand Babbie were not in any doubt that he was dead. I doubt I'll find more\ncompelling evidence than that." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is certainly compelling evidence that a Neighbor or more than one did\nsomething. I tend to agree that in some sense the being who comes out of\nthe pit is not the same being who fell into it--as I've said before, this\nnew entity has the life/blood/essence of a Neighbor and the will/memory/soul\nof Horn. Whether he's a different being, the same being resurrected with a\nnew, alien element, or two beings in one is a tougher question." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2) Resurrected Horn shakes hands with a Neighbor who declares that he\nhimself is Horn." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This could mean a hundred things. My inclination is to believe that the\nresurrected Horn is still in a very important sense Horn--otherwise the\nNeighbor's decision to treat with him is pretty dishonest and confusing. Of\ncourse, it would be almost as confusing if Horn were merely Horn. It seems\nto me that his authority to treat on behalf of humanity is derived unique\nstatus as part-Neighbor--he is ideally suited to serve as a \"greatest\nbridge\" between the peoples." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "3) The Raja flat out denies that he is the fellow (whose name he forgets)\nthat wore a ring and died on Green and was transferred to a body on the\nWhorl. Yet asserts (a lie) that in fact he is Horn (who died in the pit)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You do this consistently, but isn't it \"Rajan\"? Regardless, the Rajan is\nlying when he says that and when he says he can't remember the guy's\nname--he's trying to avoid confessing that he's been to Green (I think\nbecause he's trying to draw out Fava)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Incidentally, (not that it proves anything, I guess) in interviews Wolfe\nrefers to the narrator of SS as the Raja. Not Horn. Not Silkhorn." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That appears to be Wolfe's name for the gestalt being who writes the books\ndown. Calling him \"SilkHorn\" might be giving away the store, after all.\n Still, it supports the theory that he's a Neighbor in part as well.\n Frankly, if there's no Neighbor in him, his astral projection makes no\nsense to me. Then again, Mora's posession power and dream-walking don't\nmake much sense to me either." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " And wait, why am I not remembering when Oreb died in LS?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Chapter 2 of Nightside. Silk bought Oreb to sacrifice him to the Outsider.\nBut just before he could, Oreb dropped dead (a bad sign). And then suddenly\n*he's alive again*! Some people say Oreb was only faking which strikes me as\nvery similar to what some say about dead Horn in the pit.\n\n\nJ.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<273409710904161443j12de5caan7e9eb4afb6494f05@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-16T21:43:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 56, Issue 37", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0904161437s336ff23h49bf5e3d59f15e69@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can see evidence for Neighbor blood or something neighborly being given to\nHorn in the pit. As a matter of fact, I've taken it as a given. A neighbor\nvisits him, and sends his spirt to Nettle (after touching him on the\nforehead). Something very real happened there, which does connect Horn to\nthe Neighbors directly somehow. However, I don't think there is a transfer\nof souls.\n\nThe dream projection to me is directly related, in part, to the ability of\nthe Inhumu to project an image of themselves into the mind of humans,\nprobably coupled with the ability of the neighbors to project themselves.\nIt's a confusing element, to be sure." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 2:37 PM, John Watkins wrote:\n\n\n On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 5:08 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Not yet, but it's on my list of things to do. I'm currently working\nstraight through from FHoC, Peace, Devil in the Forest, etc etc etc. Still,\nit will be very hard to overcome \"I just don't see it\".\n\n1) Horn was resurrected from the dead after three days even though\nSeawrack and Babbie were not in any doubt that he was dead. I doubt I'll\nfind more compelling evidence than that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is certainly compelling evidence that a Neighbor or more than one did\nsomething. I tend to agree that in some sense the being who comes out of\nthe pit is not the same being who fell into it--as I've said before, this\nnew entity has the life/blood/essence of a Neighbor and the will/memory/soul\nof Horn. Whether he's a different being, the same being resurrected with a\nnew, alien element, or two beings in one is a tougher question." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "2) Resurrected Horn shakes hands with a Neighbor who declares that he\nhimself is Horn." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This could mean a hundred things. My inclination is to believe that the\nresurrected Horn is still in a very important sense Horn--otherwise the\nNeighbor's decision to treat with him is pretty dishonest and confusing. Of\ncourse, it would be almost as confusing if Horn were merely Horn. It\nseems to me that his authority to treat on behalf of humanity is derived\nunique status as part-Neighbor--he is ideally suited to serve as a \"greatest\nbridge\" between the peoples." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "3) The Raja flat out denies that he is the fellow (whose name he forgets)\nthat wore a ring and died on Green and was transferred to a body on the\nWhorl. Yet asserts (a lie) that in fact he is Horn (who died in the pit)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You do this consistently, but isn't it \"Rajan\"? Regardless, the Rajan is\nlying when he says that and when he says he can't remember the guy's\nname--he's trying to avoid confessing that he's been to Green (I think\nbecause he's trying to draw out Fava)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Incidentally, (not that it proves anything, I guess) in interviews Wolfe\nrefers to the narrator of SS as the Raja. Not Horn. Not Silkhorn." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That appears to be Wolfe's name for the gestalt being who writes the books\ndown. Calling him \"SilkHorn\" might be giving away the store, after all.\n Still, it supports the theory that he's a Neighbor in part as well.\n Frankly, if there's no Neighbor in him, his astral projection makes no\nsense to me. Then again, Mora's posession power and dream-walking don't\nmake much sense to me either." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And wait, why am I not remembering when Oreb died in LS?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Chapter 2 of Nightside. Silk bought Oreb to sacrifice him to the Outsider.\nBut just before he could, Oreb dropped dead (a bad sign). And then suddenly\n*he's alive again*! Some people say Oreb was only faking which strikes me as\nvery similar to what some say about dead Horn in the pit.\n\n\nJ.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-16T21:48:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 56, Issue 37", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0904161437s336ff23h49bf5e3d59f15e69@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You do this consistently, but isn't it \"Rajan\"?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sorry to respond with a spelling correction rather than\nsomething substantive, but it's \"Rajan\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If I understand this properly, \"Rajan\" is the form of address. \"O Rajan, \naren't you Silk?\"\n\"Raja\" is the nominative tense: \"The Raja crawled out of the pit.\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<273409710904161448r473e9203wbcad1878fbb9bfd5@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-16T21:48:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 56, Issue 37", "in_reply_to": "<7D2FE7742A114B558695409F58B5F358@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Rajan.....\n\n;)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 2:15 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nI said: \"I doubt I'll find more compelling evidence than that.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I meant, \"more compelling than those three items.\"\n\nThere is one other that I just remembered. The Raja barely eats. He seems\nto not really need it. He confesses that he fakes eating a lot. But when\nSpring comes he is suddenly ravenous. I suppose that does not prove he is a\nNeighbor, but it does suggest that he's not merely human.\n\n\nJ.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0904161449r7a9e1550w452db0d8716680c2@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-16T21:49:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 56, Issue 37", "in_reply_to": "<7D2FE7742A114B558695409F58B5F358@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've been keeping an eye out for that eating thing, and it is more or less\nas you say. That point would be more compelling if Silk hadn't had such a\nweird relationship with food back in Long Sun. It really could be nothing\nmore than Horn's appetite and tendency to get heavier fighting it out with\nSilk's habit of fasting, with each having an upper hand at different times.\nThen again, it could be what you say." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 5:15 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nI said: \"I doubt I'll find more compelling evidence than that.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I meant, \"more compelling than those three items.\"\n\nThere is one other that I just remembered. The Raja barely eats. He seems\nto not really need it. He confesses that he fakes eating a lot. But when\nSpring comes he is suddenly ravenous. I suppose that does not prove he is a\nNeighbor, but it does suggest that he's not merely human.\n\n\nJ.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0904161451h1b558fcdu2edc6e65f3188ed3@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-16T21:51:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 56, Issue 37", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think so...my OBW character index lists people like \"Hoop, one of\nthe RAJAN's scribes\" and \"Pehla, the RAJAN's principal concubine.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 5:48 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nYou do this consistently, but isn't it \"Rajan\"?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Sorry to respond with a spelling correction rather than\nsomething substantive, but it's \"Rajan\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If I understand this properly, \"Rajan\" is the form of address. \"O Rajan,\naren't you Silk?\"\n\"Raja\" is the nominative tense: \"The Raja crawled out of the pit.\n\n\nJ.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-16T22:19:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rajan vs Raja", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0904161451h1b558fcdu2edc6e65f3188ed3@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If I understand this properly, \"Rajan\" is the form of address.\n\"O Rajan, aren't you Silk?\"\n\"Raja\" is the nominative tense: \"The Raja crawled out of the pit.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think so...my OBW character index lists people\nlike \"Hoop, one of the RAJAN's scribes\" and \"Pehla,\nthe RAJAN's principal concubine.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "eh...okay. I think I'm technically right, but I'll conform to avoid \nantagonizing the list.\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<273409710904161524i7ec9b05br56e60b800967fc15@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-16T22:24:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rajan vs Raja", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I don't want you to back down, I just don't remember a single instance\nof Raja in the books. Seems like if it was a valid conjugate, it would\nappear at least once." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 3:19 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nIf I understand this properly, \"Rajan\" is the form of address." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "\"O Rajan, aren't you Silk?\"\n\"Raja\" is the nominative tense: \"The Raja crawled out of the pit.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " I don't think so...my OBW character index lists people\nlike \"Hoop, one of the RAJAN's scribes\" and \"Pehla,\nthe RAJAN's principal concubine.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "eh...okay. I think I'm technically right, but I'll conform to avoid\nantagonizing the list.\n\nJ.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-16T22:42:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rajan vs Raja", "in_reply_to": "<273409710904161524i7ec9b05br56e60b800967fc15@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, I don't want you to back down,\nI just don't remember a single instance of Raja\nin the books. Seems like if it was a valid conjugate,\nit would appear at least once." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't mind backing down about stuff I don't care much about. In Sanskrit \n\"Raja\" is the nominative tense. Just because I'm technically accurate \ndoesn't mean I'm *textually* accurate. I didn't imagine it would make a \ndifference to anyone but me.\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<582BC0F4FB2E42CCBB979E5557042B02@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-16T22:50:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 56, Issue 37", "in_reply_to": "<273409710904161433t14f54bc6s66a276f071d54ac0@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I also just don't see how it adds anything\nto the thematic content, and to me it also\ntakes away from it, which is one of the tests\nI usually posit Wolfe Textual theories against." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is loaded with thematic content.\n1) Foremost, it is a rationalization of the Trinity: Father, Son, and Holy \nSpirit--the same and yet distinct. In Augustinian theology, the person of \nthe Holy Spirit is the relationship, the love, the connection between the \nFather and the Son. Of course, it works even better if one accepts that Horn \nis a clone of Typhon and that Silk is the son of Typhon and Kypris and that \nSilk is possessed by (or in some other way *is*) Pas/Typhon. But it is not \nnecessary.\n\n2) Also, the ability for the Ring Bearer Horn to receive the rights to Blue \nis analogous to the right of Jesus Christ to have redeem humanity and to be \nthe Mediator between God and man: He must be 100% human and 100% Neighbor.\n\n3) It also fits with concepts that Wolfe has tinkered with elsewhere, such \nas the alien VRT becoming a \"perfect\" imitation of Marsch and Mani the cat \nbeing neither a cat nor an elemental spirit." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "For instance, seeing someone unmoving at the bottom\nof a dimly lit pit from 30 feet, and assuming them dead,\ndoes not, to me, seem at all unusual.\n[snip]\nAnd Oreb was clearly faking it. Not resurrecting. ;)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "(sigh)\nMaybe you're just tweaking my ear. But, there are readers who believe\nthis so I'll act like you aren't:\nAn ability to perfectly feign death well enough to fool four expert\nwitnesses is a power I was not aware night choughs possessed. I'm sure\nyou've held birds in your hand before. An avian heartbeat is not something\nthat one would fail to detect. But maybe Horn learned it from Oreb." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And as for the neighbor saying \"I am Horn\" I can write more\non that later. That one line, if taken by itself, may indicate\nwhat you mean." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This would mean nothing to me except when combined with the other stuff.\nSure, you can individually dispense each of these in turn. Seawrack could \nnot be as sure Horn was dead as she claimed. The Neighbor identifying \nhimself as Horn could mean many things (even if the *Rajan* is Horn, it's \nnot absolutely clear what it means). Horn's denial that he was on Green was \nto draw out Fava (then why tell the story?). Silk is a an anorexic \nmasochist.\nOh yeah, then there is the *Rajan* saying that he killed Hide and Hoof's \nfather.\n\nBut you pile all these together and they point to something else. They do to \nme, anyway. I could be wrong in the particular explanation, I guess, but \nthere is something more than Horn-->SilkHorn going on, and I don't know what \nresolves all these better than what I've presented.\n\nOf course, I'm right but Wolfe's stories are big enough for the both of us.\n;-)\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Robin Dunn", "address": "bigbadgerjohnny at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-16T22:51:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rajan vs Raja", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You know we Wolfe fiends, we'll analyze every last word like it was\nfrom the holy mouth of Joyce ;)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 3:42 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nWell, I don't want you to back down,\nI just don't remember a single instance of Raja\nin the books. ?Seems like if it was a valid conjugate,\nit would appear at least once." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't mind backing down about stuff I don't care much about. In Sanskrit\n\"Raja\" is the nominative tense. Just because I'm technically accurate\ndoesn't mean I'm *textually* accurate. I didn't imagine it would make a\ndifference to anyone but me.\n\nJ.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0904161551m4169f6b9k911ccdc0c73986e8@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-16T22:51:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rajan vs Raja", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, it's possible that this subtlety escaped Wolfe." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 6:42 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nWell, I don't want you to back down,\nI just don't remember a single instance of Raja\nin the books. Seems like if it was a valid conjugate,\nit would appear at least once." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't mind backing down about stuff I don't care much about. In Sanskrit\n\"Raja\" is the nominative tense. Just because I'm technically accurate\ndoesn't mean I'm *textually* accurate. I didn't imagine it would make a\ndifference to anyone but me.\n\n\nJ.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<273409710904161557j4c975f83oec02fbc987bdb3f8@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-16T22:57:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 56, Issue 37", "in_reply_to": "<582BC0F4FB2E42CCBB979E5557042B02@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I just have equally compelling arguments in my head for each of those\ninstances that point to other things, that's all.\n\nIt is a big book indeed.\n\nAnd no, I'm not tweaking your ear about Oreb. Maybe Wolfe didn't do as good\nof a job in thinking about the inability to distinguish between alive and\ndead birds as you, but to me, it seems ridiculous to posit a resurrected\nOreb. By whom? Is Silk Severian now, and Oreb Triskele? Was Oreb Scylla\nthe entire time? Can Mainframe gods ressurect dead animals? What point\nwould ressurecting a character have when that character was just introduced.\n\nIf you could answer any of those questions (maybe you can) then I might\nentertain the thought. I can't think of possible expliantions for any of\nthem, though." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 3:50 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nI also just don't see how it adds anything\nto the thematic content, and to me it also\ntakes away from it, which is one of the tests\nI usually posit Wolfe Textual theories against." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is loaded with thematic content.\n1) Foremost, it is a rationalization of the Trinity: Father, Son, and Holy\nSpirit--the same and yet distinct. In Augustinian theology, the person of\nthe Holy Spirit is the relationship, the love, the connection between the\nFather and the Son. Of course, it works even better if one accepts that Horn\nis a clone of Typhon and that Silk is the son of Typhon and Kypris and that\nSilk is possessed by (or in some other way *is*) Pas/Typhon. But it is not\nnecessary.\n\n2) Also, the ability for the Ring Bearer Horn to receive the rights to Blue\nis analogous to the right of Jesus Christ to have redeem humanity and to be\nthe Mediator between God and man: He must be 100% human and 100% Neighbor.\n\n3) It also fits with concepts that Wolfe has tinkered with elsewhere, such\nas the alien VRT becoming a \"perfect\" imitation of Marsch and Mani the cat\nbeing neither a cat nor an elemental spirit.\n\n For instance, seeing someone unmoving at the bottom\nof a dimly lit pit from 30 feet, and assuming them dead,\ndoes not, to me, seem at all unusual." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "[snip]\nAnd Oreb was clearly faking it. Not resurrecting. ;)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(sigh)\nMaybe you're just tweaking my ear. But, there are readers who believe\nthis so I'll act like you aren't:\nAn ability to perfectly feign death well enough to fool four expert\nwitnesses is a power I was not aware night choughs possessed. I'm sure\nyou've held birds in your hand before. An avian heartbeat is not something\nthat one would fail to detect. But maybe Horn learned it from Oreb.\n\n And as for the neighbor saying \"I am Horn\" I can write more\non that later. That one line, if taken by itself, may indicate\nwhat you mean." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This would mean nothing to me except when combined with the other stuff.\nSure, you can individually dispense each of these in turn. Seawrack could\nnot be as sure Horn was dead as she claimed. The Neighbor identifying\nhimself as Horn could mean many things (even if the *Rajan* is Horn, it's\nnot absolutely clear what it means). Horn's denial that he was on Green was\nto draw out Fava (then why tell the story?). Silk is a an anorexic\nmasochist.\nOh yeah, then there is the *Rajan* saying that he killed Hide and Hoof's\nfather.\n\nBut you pile all these together and they point to something else. They do\nto me, anyway. I could be wrong in the particular explanation, I guess, but\nthere is something more than Horn-->SilkHorn going on, and I don't know what\nresolves all these better than what I've presented.\n\nOf course, I'm right but Wolfe's stories are big enough for the both of us.\n;-)\n\n\nJ.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0904161601k300fc400v8e5a8dfde38239ce@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-16T23:01:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 56, Issue 37", "in_reply_to": "<582BC0F4FB2E42CCBB979E5557042B02@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I mostly agree with you, but I want to take some points in turn." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This would mean nothing to me except when combined with the other stuff.\nSure, you can individually dispense each of these in turn. Seawrack could\nnot be as sure Horn was dead as she claimed. The Neighbor identifying\nhimself as Horn could mean many things (even if the *Rajan* is Horn, it's\nnot absolutely clear what it means). Horn's denial that he was on Green was\nto draw out Fava (then why tell the story?)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He told the story with the intent of the inhuma present revealing herself to\nhim. The whole goal was to accurately describe Green so that the inhuma\nwould react with surprise to the fact that he had already been there. He\nstrongly suspected Fava already and so watched her. His intent was not to\nreinforce the belief that he was a witch, and so he did not want to suggest\nthat he had had those adventures on Green.\n\nDo you really think he had momentarily forgotten Horn's name?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Silk is a an anorexic masochist." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Silk does fast, whether this makes him these things or not. It's mentioned\nat least twice in Nightside." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Oh yeah, then there is the *Rajan* saying that he killed Hide and Hoof's\nfather." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not sure much can be made of this. The entity known as \"Horn\" has ceased to\nexist in any meaningful sense by the time that comment is made (unless he's\nin Babbie, which the Rajan might not be aware of)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But you pile all these together and they point to something else. They do\nto me, anyway. I could be wrong in the particular explanation, I guess, but\nthere is something more than Horn-->SilkHorn going on, and I don't know what\nresolves all these better than what I've presented.\n\nOf course, I'm right but Wolfe's stories are big enough for the both of us.\n;-)\n\n\nJ.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<253756.65343.qm@web50709.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-04-16T23:17:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rajan vs Raja", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- On Thu, 4/16/09, James Wynn wrote:\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, I don't want you to back down,\nI just don't remember a single instance of Raja\nin the books. Seems like if it was a valid conjugate," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Declension?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "it would appear at least once." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't mind backing down about stuff I don't care\nmuch about. In Sanskrit \n\"Raja\" is the nominative tense." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Case?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Just because I'm technically accurate \ndoesn't mean I'm *textually* accurate. I didn't\nimagine it would make a \ndifference to anyone but me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Apparently I was part of one of those Zeitgeist things that\ncaused people to have the same reaction all at once.\nStrange.\n\nAnyway, I'm impressed that you know about the vocative\ncase in Sanskrit, as I know nothing about Sanskrit. But\n\"cald?\" must be deliberately inaccurate Spanish for\n\"alcalde\", maybe suggesting linguistic change over the\nmillennia, so \"the Rajan\" could easily be something\nsimilar. Or just that we can't possibly decline anything\nin English--having a different form for \"Kill the Rajan\"\nor \"I gave the Rajan permission\"--so Wolfe picked one.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<0967535EDB494ABA97225F602212BC39@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-17T00:04:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rajan vs Raja", "in_reply_to": "<253756.65343.qm@web50709.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In Sanskrit\n\"Raja\" is the nominative tense." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Case?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Anyway, I'm impressed that you know about the vocative\ncase in Sanskrit, as I know nothing about Sanskrit." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't speak Sanskrit. I looked it up (Thanks for that, Mr. Wolfe). \nActually, I don' think there IS a modern term \"rajan\". Rajan is the term \nfrom which we get \"raja\" and the nominative *case* is \"ray-jay\".\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<39ed084f0904161723r61cd66bbu2f21353a8689e408@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Groves", "address": "matthewalangroves at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-17T00:23:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 56, Issue 37", "in_reply_to": "<1A1E3E2F0AA0465BA355C91FC14C392F@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Do we know when Oreb(?) became Scylla? He was no ordinary talking\nnight chough in Long Sun. Is there any reason to think he wasn't\npossessed by Scylla from the beginning?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 3:37 PM, James Wynn wrote:\n\nWell, he's not the same Oreb because he's Scylla.\nNo one else seems to wonder that Oreb was able to die and resurrect himself.\nIt makes me believe that someone was possessing him at that time. But that's\njust me. But that would doubly make the Oreb of most of SS different from\nthe Oreb of most of LS.\n\nFWIW I think the whole speech is pointing to the fact that the Neighbor has\nbeen imitating Horn who imitated Silk. The whole thing harkens back to VRT\nof \"The Fifth Head of Cerberus\".\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "<39ed084f0904161726g3cc48659h1ec68d44efd5c8c4@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Groves", "address": "matthewalangroves at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-17T00:26:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rajan vs Raja", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0904161551m4169f6b9k911ccdc0c73986e8@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Blasphemer!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 5:51 PM, John Watkins wrote:\nYes, it's possible that this subtlety escaped Wolfe." } ] }, { "message_id": "<65F42C5F84B84213BEF508191D0B01E0@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-17T00:52:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) On Oreb", "in_reply_to": "<273409710904161557j4c975f83oec02fbc987bdb3f8@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jordan Flato:\nMaybe Wolfe didn't do as good of a job in thinking about\nthe inability to distinguish between alive and dead birds as you," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ehh...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jordan Flato:\nbut to me, it seems ridiculous to posit a resurrected Oreb. Is Silk \nSeverian now, and Oreb Triskele?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ha ha! Don't be silly. Quite the opposite since Oreb *died* when Silk \ntouched him with his Claw.\n;-)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jordan Flato:\nBy whom? Was Oreb Scylla the entire time?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Could be, I guess, but I don't think so. I believe it was Pas who had fled \nto Oreb among other places when he was purged by Echidna and Co.\nHierax, Tartaros or even the Outsider himself are reasonable candidates as \nwell, I suppose." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Matthew Groves:\nDo we know when Oreb(?) became Scylla?\nHe was no ordinary talking night chough in Long Sun.\nIs there any reason to think he wasn't possessed by\nScylla from the beginning?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, the Rajan postulates that he was possessed by Scylla during the \nsacrifice just before they returned to Blue, but that doesn't mean anything \nreally. The reason I doubt it is because she would have no reason to possess \na night chough during the whole of the LS story rather than re-integrate and \npunish Silk for trying to kill her. Also, Oreb is a great aid to Silk and \nAwk in resurrecting Pas. I would have expected some interference in their \nmission if it were Scylla in there. That's how I would have written it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jordan Flato:\nCan Mainframe gods resurrect dead animals?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Mainframe gods can dramatically extend the lives of people they possess \nas Pas did with Jerboa. They can summon every snake in the area at a whim as \nEchidna did. They can heighten the senses of their vessels to perform feats \notherwise impossible as Kypris did allowing Chenille to throw a knife and \nhave it hit the same hole twice. Whenever anyone dies, bio or chem, their \nidentities are instantly recorded in Mainframe.\n\nAll bets are off on what the Mainframe gods are incapable of. In fact, all \nthis is probably only conceivable if one presumes that the entire Cargo was \ngenetically modified to allow the gods to use them as puppets. So, yeah, I \nthink a Mainframe god could probably kill and resurrect a vessel at will, at \nleast temporarily. It is also possible that the god made Oreb *all but* \ndead...slowing his heart-rate undetectably.\n\nI suppose there are limits, though. A possessed person probably can't flap \nhis arms and fly to Mainframe. Oreb is capable of speaking only two words at \na time no matter who possesses him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jordan Flato:\nWhat point would resurrecting a character have when\nthat character was just introduced." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Umm...to bring him back to life? Anyway, if you were Pas hiding out or any \nother god for that matter, this is a reasonable method to prevent your \nvessel from being destroyed before you could return to Mainframe. And \nhaving Silk buy Oreb to sacrifice him is a good way to get them introduced.\n\nThere is one other thing, but I doubt anyone would be converted by it but \nme. Pas is New Testament Greek for \"all\". Another Greek word for \"all\" is \n\"pan\", and Pan is the only god to have died in historical time (Plutarch's \nlives) just before the birth of Christ. Finally, Pas is the demonic \nequivalent of Zeus who is also famously said to have died (his tomb was \nhonored by the Cretans). Oreb dying is supposed to be a flag that Pas is in \nhim, because (although we don't know it yet) Pas is \"dead\" at this point in \nthe book.\n\nI can't imagine that Wolfe really thought that Oreb inexplicably dying and \nreanimating would not raise an eye-brow among his readers to whom he has \ntaught Textual Paranoia. For me, the fact that *Silk* supposed Oreb had just \nfainted and not died is evidence enough that that supposition is wrong. In \nWolfe stories, the initial rationalization of a weird event is never the \nright one.\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<49E7D7E8.1000501@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-04-17T01:14:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 56, Issue 37", "in_reply_to": "<39ed084f0904161723r61cd66bbu2f21353a8689e408@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One should always be skeptical of resurrections in fiction. ;)\n\nBut remember, Severian was resurrected about half a dozen times. Why not an analog of the familiar of Apollo?\n\n[Incidentally, I am sure \"Raja(h)\" never appears in SS. I would have noticed if it did.]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 7\nDate: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 15:57:53 -0700\nFrom: Jordon Flato \nSubject: Re: (urth) Urth Digest, Vol 56, Issue 37\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID:\n\t<273409710904161557j4c975f83oec02fbc987bdb3f8 at mail.gmail.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nI just have equally compelling arguments in my head for each of those\ninstances that point to other things, that's all.\n\nIt is a big book indeed.\n\nAnd no, I'm not tweaking your ear about Oreb. Maybe Wolfe didn't do as good\nof a job in thinking about the inability to distinguish between alive and\ndead birds as you, but to me, it seems ridiculous to posit a resurrected\nOreb. By whom? Is Silk Severian now, and Oreb Triskele? Was Oreb Scylla\nthe entire time? Can Mainframe gods ressurect dead animals? What point\nwould ressurecting a character have when that character was just introduced.\n\nIf you could answer any of those questions (maybe you can) then I might\nentertain the thought. I can't think of possible expliantions for any of\nthem, though." } ] }, { "message_id": "<8C1E75FECA02405889DE15B002094344@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-17T01:18:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who was Horn?", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0904161601k300fc400v8e5a8dfde38239ce@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I mostly agree with you, but I want to take some points in turn." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I hereby pick up the gauntlet." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Do you really think he had momentarily forgotten Horn's name?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "**************************\nIGJ (HB) pg 122\n\"Was this you for real Incanto? Were you on Green? By Echidna's babies, I\nthink you were!\"\n\nI shook my head and told him it had been someone else, a man whose name I\nhave forgotten, a man who wore a ring with a white stone. My own name is\nHorn, no matter what Oreb may say.\n***********************\n\nThis is disassociation. Horn lives on only in the Rajan's memories of \nHorn's memories from when he and Horn were one. He is focused on being and \nimitating *Horn*, not the creature named Horn who was created in the pit \nfrom a Neighbor and a human corpse. That creature has ceased to exist as \nwell, just as Mani would cease to exist when the cat died. He also lives \nonly in the Rajan's memories. But the Rajan has so many alternate memories \nnow, he's confused. But it is clear (to me) from this statement that the \nRajan sees a distinction between \"Horn\" and the man who died on Green." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Silk is a an anorexic masochist." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Silk does fast, whether this makes him these things or not. It's mentioned \nat least twice in Nightside." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Granted, but when it is combined with the onset of ravenous hunger in the \nSpring, we know more is going on here (incidentally, this is more of that \nTree-Neighbor connection that I still don't understand). I do not recall an \ninstance of LS Silk pretending to eat food set before him. He fasts, but \nwhen there is not a lot of food available anyway, it is easy to be holy in \nthat way. Not the same thing as what happens in SS, I think." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Oh yeah, then there is the *Rajan* saying that he killed Hide and Hoof's \nfather." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not sure much can be made of this.\nThe entity known as \"Horn\" has ceased to exist in any meaningful\nsense by the time that comment is made\n(unless he's in Babbie, which the Rajan might not be aware of)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, Horn had died, and the Horn-Neighbor had ceased to exist, but the \nentity who had accidentally killed the father of Hoof and Hide lived on, \njust as Mani's elemental spirit would live on after the cat died. Other than \nthis explanation, however, nothing much can be made of this statement that \nsatisfies me.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "<259933.70573.qm@web50709.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-04-17T04:14:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 56, Issue 37", "in_reply_to": "<49E7732A.7000300@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There are other possibilities. For instance, the narrators\ncould have added their comments, perhaps overtly raising\nthe question of who they are. That is, Wolfe could have\nmade them the kind of characters who would do that and who\nwould have interesting things to say.\n\nThey could have quoted Silk's letters, written-out sermons,\nor other documents, maybe with an explanation of how they\ngot hold of them. (\"Take these with you. There may be\nsomething in them you can use for your book.\")\n\nThey could have just inserted extended thoughts for Silk\ninto the narrative, as they did brief thoughts and\nfeelings. If necessary, at the end they could have said\nsomething like, \"What we showed Silk thinking about the\nsoul and body is mostly what he told us sprats in the\npalaestra one day.\"\n\nNo doubt there are more options a writer like Wolfe\ncould have come up, and I think it would have been to\nthe book's benefit if he'd chosen one.\n\nJerry Friedman" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Thu, 4/16/09, David Stockhoff wrote:\nDoesn't the style of narration depend entirely on the\nnarrator and his/her circumstances? That is, how else should\nthe narrator of LS have narrated?\n\nThat scene-by scene style, without introspection, was\ncertainly a shift after Severian's many-layered and\ndiscursive account. But Silk doesn't narrate LS.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 20:26:51 -0700 (PDT)\nFrom: Jerry Friedman \nSubject: Re: (urth) Weekly blog links" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20090417055517.AD39948008@diego.dreamhost.com>", "from": { "name": "Mo Holkar / UKG", "address": "lists at ukg.co.uk" }, "date": "2009-04-17T05:55:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rajan vs Raja", "in_reply_to": "<0967535EDB494ABA97225F602212BC39@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 01:04 17/04/2009, James Wynn wrote:\nI don't speak Sanskrit. I looked it up (Thanks for that, Mr. Wolfe). \nActually, I don' think there IS a modern term \"rajan\". Rajan is the \nterm from which we get \"raja\" and the nominative *case* is \"ray-jay\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There are quite a few modern languages descended from Sanskrit. In at \nleast one of them -- Nepali -- \"Rajan\" is the ordinary nominative \ncase that corresponds to Hindi \"Raja\".\n\nbest,\n\nMo\n\n\n\n# ~ # ~ #\n\nWolfeWiki -- a wiki about Gene Wolfe\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/ " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-17T12:51:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 56, Issue 37", "in_reply_to": "<259933.70573.qm@web50709.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Raja barely eats. He seems to \nnot really need it. He confesses that he fakes eating a lot." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nReminds me of Dr. Talos, a construct, who doesn't need to sleep\nbut fakes gratitude when Severian offers to relieve him on night\nwatch.\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-17T16:40:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rajan vs Raja", "in_reply_to": "<20090417055517.AD39948008@diego.dreamhost.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There are quite a few modern languages descended from Sanskrit. In at \nleast one of them -- Nepali -- \"Rajan\" is the ordinary nominative \ncase that corresponds to Hindi \"Raja\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah! Then perhaps the culture of Gaon is Napalese.\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<8F107B5B7EB3464C9109364FC757E46C@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-17T18:11:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rajan vs Raja", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There are quite a few modern languages descended from Sanskrit. In at \nleast one of them -- Nepali -- \"Rajan\" is the ordinary nominative case \nthat corresponds to Hindi \"Raja\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ah! Then perhaps the culture of Gaon is Napalese." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "According to wikipedia, \"gaon\" means \"village\" in Hindi, Marathi \n(central-east India), Assamese (west India). Is it a term in Nepalese as \nwell?\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<49E997C2.9070206@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-04-18T09:05:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 56, Issue 37", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "b sharp wrote:\nThe Raja barely eats. He seems to \nnot really need it. He confesses that he fakes eating a lot." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \nReminds me of Dr. Talos, a construct, who doesn't need to sleep\nbut fakes gratitude when Severian offers to relieve him on night\nwatch." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is it really fake? He might have other things to do than watch out for \nantagonists." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] } ] }