Subject: (urth) Urth Digest, Vol 56, Issue 37

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 18:04:26 +0000

Doesn't the style of narration depend entirely on the narrator and his/her circumstances? That is, how else should the narrator of LS have narrated?

That scene-by scene style, without introspection, was certainly a shift after Severian's many-layered and discursive account. But Silk doesn't narrate LS.

------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 20:26:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: (urth) Weekly blog links
To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
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And we didn't need LS to consist entirely of dramatic
scenes, in the sense of "The Cat in the Starfleet's
Attic".  I'm glad that in NS and SS, our narrators get to
ruminate occasionally.

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From: Jordon Flato <jordonflato at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 18:09:02 +0000

Having just read through both LS and SS, one of my favorite aspects, minor
though it may be, is that in LS we have Horns voice, which we think is Silk,
and in SS we have Silks voice, which we think is Horns.  They tell each
others stories, and the style of their narrative voice greatly affects the
telling.  There is something so resonant in this for me.  Just a brilliant
stroke.

I'm still on the fence about the Nettle/Vadsig/Hide voice of the Whorl
narrative in RttW.

Also, I guess in fact in LS we don't JUST have horns voice, but Nettle's
too.  Which makes here the only common narrative voice between the two
works.  (Holy spirit?)

On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 11:04 AM, David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>wrote:

> Doesn't the style of narration depend entirely on the narrator and his/her
> circumstances? That is, how else should the narrator of LS have narrated?
>
> That scene-by scene style, without introspection, was certainly a shift
> after Severian's many-layered and discursive account. But Silk doesn't
> narrate LS.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Urth Mailing List
> To post, write urth at urth.net
> Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net
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From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 18:26:11 +0000

Of course, there's another layer of complexity here.
I'm currently midway through Return to the Whorl, where SilkHorn makes
several references to his theory that the Oreb of SS is not the Oreb of LS,
despite their apparently identical behavior except when Scylla is acting
through Oreb.  This bothered me the first time I read it, but I took it as
just another layer of uncertainty, melancholy, and alienation--maybe even
the beloved pet from the first series is an imposter.

Well, I now think that was wrong.  To me, it always comes back to the idea
that by imitating someone, you become them--Incus was the first to spell it
out, but the Outsider later seems to confirm it to Silk, which indicates to
me that Wolfe thinks it's very important--important enough to repeat and
important enough to have the One True God say it.

Horn's skill of imitating Silk allowed him to write Silk's story.  It also
allowed him to almost become Silk without noticing it--SilkHorn's insistence
that he is really just Horn acting like Silk convinces no one except, at
times, himself.

I think the character I'll call "Oreb(?)" is a reflection of that.  In RttW,
when SilkHorn first meets Oreb(?), he asks if he "knew" the original Oreb,
and then asks "Did he teach you how to talk?"  What I think Wolfe is trying
to flag in that scene is that, in a sense, it doesn't matter if Oreb(?) is
Oreb or not--he's functionally Oreb because by imitating Oreb, he has become
him.  The soul, in LS/SS, may be almost as simple as diction + habituation.

Obviously this also explains the somewhat lazy use of exaggerated diction
(Patera Incus, Patera, that, is, um, augur, hey? Remora, d'yeh remember Pig?
 Yeh do!, and all of the Dorp people.)  Wolfe is good, but the challenge of
writing people's souls into their diction and vice-versa is tough unless
characters have idiosyncratic modes of speech.

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From: Jordon Flato <jordonflato at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 18:31:06 +0000

Hmmm.  Besides Silkhorn's ruminations, I can't see any evidence at all that
Oreb would not be Oreb.  Certainly, there are changes because of Scylla, but
it would make very little sense to me that Oreb was another bird imitaing
Oreb.  As a connecting Avatar between Silk and Silkhorn, he makes a great
deal of thematic sense to me.

As an imitation of the orignial Oreb, it has far less resonance to me, even
with your good analysis of the siginficance of imitation above.

I've always seen Oreb, like Mucor, to always see the 'soul' of the person he
is seeing.  His change of seeing Jahlee from Bad Thing to Good Girl being a
prime example.

Oreb, like Mucor, is above the trickery and confusion of the multiple
identiy crises.

Except, of course, he isn't.  Because he's Scylla.  WTF?

*implodes*

On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 11:26 AM, John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>wrote:

> I think the character I'll call "Oreb(?)" is a reflection of that.  In
> RttW, when SilkHorn first meets Oreb(?), he asks if he "knew" the original
> Oreb, and then asks "Did he teach you how to talk?"  What I think Wolfe is
> trying to flag in that scene is that, in a sense, it doesn't matter if
> Oreb(?) is Oreb or not--he's functionally Oreb because by imitating Oreb,
> he has become him.  The soul, in LS/SS, may be almost as simple as diction
> + habituation.
>
> (Patera Incus, Patera, that, is, um, augur, hey? Remora, d'yeh remember
> Pig?  Yeh do!, and all of the Dorp people.)  Wolfe is good, but the
> challenge of writing people's souls into their diction and vice-versa is
> tough unless characters have idiosyncratic modes of speech.
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 2:09 PM, Jordon Flato <jordonflato at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>>   On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 11:04 AM, David Stockhoff <
>> dstockhoff at verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Doesn't the style of narration depend entirely on the narrator and
>>> his/her circumstances? That is, how else should the narrator of LS have
>>> narrated?
>>>
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From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 18:37:11 +0000

Oh, I agree--I think he's definitely still Oreb.  On the level of mere plot,
SilkHorn doubts Oreb(?) is Oreb because 1)  he's suppressing Silk's memories
of the last 20 years, which may have involved continuous association with
Oreb, and 2)  the Horn side has no idea how old night choughs can get.  But
I think his instinct, that Oreb is another bird perfectly imitating Oreb, is
still supposed to tell us something about the movement of souls in the book
and about SilkHorn's understanding of himself--I think there's a bit in On
Blue's Waters where SilkHorn says he isn't Silk but has done his best to
imitate him for his entire life.  This is wrong, but it's his justification
of himself.

On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 2:31 PM, Jordon Flato <jordonflato at gmail.com> wrote:

> I've always seen Oreb, like Mucor, to always see the 'soul' of the person
> he is seeing.  His change of seeing Jahlee from Bad Thing to Good Girl being
> a prime example.
>
>> he has become him.  The soul, in LS/SS, may be almost as simple as
>> diction + habituation.
>>
>>> Having just read through both LS and SS, one of my favorite aspects,
>>> minor though it may be, is that in LS we have Horns voice, which we think is
>>> Silk, and in SS we have Silks voice, which we think is Horns.  They tell
>>> each others stories, and the style of their narrative voice greatly affects
>>> the telling.  There is something so resonant in this for me.  Just a
>>> brilliant stroke.
>>>
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From: Jordon Flato <jordonflato at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 19:18:51 +0000

I see.  Yes, that is a good reading of it.

On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 11:37 AM, John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>wrote:

> Oh, I agree--I think he's definitely still Oreb.  On the level of mere
> plot, SilkHorn doubts Oreb(?) is Oreb because 1)  he's suppressing Silk's
> memories of the last 20 years, which may have involved continuous
> association with Oreb, and 2)  the Horn side has no idea how old night
> choughs can get.  But I think his instinct, that Oreb is another bird
> perfectly imitating Oreb, is still supposed to tell us something about the
> movement of souls in the book and about SilkHorn's understanding of
> himself--I think there's a bit in On Blue's Waters where SilkHorn says he
> isn't Silk but has done his best to imitate him for his entire life.  This
> is wrong, but it's his justification of himself.
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 2:31 PM, Jordon Flato <jordonflato at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Hmmm.  Besides Silkhorn's ruminations, I can't see any evidence at all
>> that Oreb would not be Oreb.  Certainly, there are changes because of
>> Scylla, but it would make very little sense to me that Oreb was another bird
>> imitaing Oreb.  As a connecting Avatar between Silk and Silkhorn, he makes a
>> great deal of thematic sense to me.
>>
>> As an imitation of the orignial Oreb, it has far less resonance to me,
>> even with your good analysis of the siginficance of imitation above.
>>
>>> Well, I now think that was wrong.  To me, it always comes back to the
>>> idea that by imitating someone, you become them--Incus was the first to
>>> spell it out, but the Outsider later seems to confirm it to Silk, which
>>> indicates to me that Wolfe thinks it's very important--important enough
>>> to repeat and important enough to have the One True God say it.
>>>
>>> Horn's skill of imitating Silk allowed him to write Silk's story.  It
>>> also allowed him to almost become Silk without noticing it--SilkHorn's
>>> insistence that he is really just Horn acting like Silk convinces no one
>>> except, at times, himself.
>>>
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From: Robin Dunn <bigbadgerjohnny at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 19:52:15 +0000

Quick question for you guys:

Which short story of Wolfe's do you think would be the easiest to
film, where some of the moral ambiguity and complexity of Wolfe could
show through on screen?

I'm not a connoisseur of his short work, and it's often struck me as
dryer, but would love to hear your thoughts.

Cheers,
Robin

On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 11:04 AM, David Stockhoff
<dstockhoff at verizon.net> wrote:
> Attic". ?I'm glad that in NS and SS, our narrators get to
> ruminate occasionally.
>
>
>
>
> ---

---

From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 19:55:36 +0000

Long Sun would be an interesting set of films or, say, HBO series.
Fifth Head, the original story, would probably be my choice for a discrete
movie.

On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 3:52 PM, Robin Dunn <bigbadgerjohnny at gmail.com>wrote:

> his/her
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From: Robin Dunn <bigbadgerjohnny at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 20:09:49 +0000

Fifth head was definitely my first choice, though the robot would
require a medium amount of money  :)

I was thinking of something that would translate into a good 5 to 15
minute film.

---

From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 20:14:04 +0000

> I was thinking of something that would translate into a good 5 to 15

While to do it right would take a bit longer than 15 minutes, "The
Detective of Dreams" would be fairly inexpensive to film and
would (I think) translate fairly well.

-- 
Dan'l Danehy-Oakes

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 20:16:42 +0000

There are people working on The Death Of Dr Island:

http://www.doctorisland.com/

.

---

From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 20:19:59 +0000

--- On Thu, 4/16/09, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I was thinking of something that would translate into
> a good 5 to 15 minute film.
> 

Speaking of which, "La Befana" would work too, though I
don't like it as well as "The Detective of Dreams".

Hey, how 'bout "The War Beneath the Tree"?  I think that one
could have real potential as an animated feature. :-)

Jerry Friedman

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 20:23:16 +0000

> could have real potential as an animated feature. :-)

That would be excellent for the Christmas market, oh yes.

Show it to every three year old in the world, man.

.

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 20:27:19 +0000

> film, where some of the moral ambiguity and complexity of Wolfe could

Counting Cats in Zanzibar would receive as little or as much FX as one chose 
to receive and the story could be told in 15 minutes. The dialog could be 
converted directly to the adapted screenplay. It utilizes scifi concepts 
already well understood much of the audience, so very little exposition is 
necessary.

Perhaps a short scene could be added to dramatize the three laws of 
robotics.

J.

---

From: Rob Thornton <oblate777 at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 20:28:37 +0000

"When I Was Ming the Merciless" would also make a good short. If you
do it without shifting perspectives, it can be filmed in one room with
two people.

rob t.

On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 4:23 PM,  <brunians at brunians.org> wrote:
>
>> Hey, how 'bout "The War Beneath the Tree"? ?I think that one

-- 
"Our plan is working perfectly. In mere days, hordes of gay Islamic
abortionists will be streaming over the border from Mexico."

              --Daily Kos poster

---

From: Robin Dunn <bigbadgerjohnny at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 20:34:19 +0000

Thanks guys, you rock. :)

On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 1:28 PM, Rob Thornton <oblate777 at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 4:23 PM, ?<brunians at brunians.org> wrote:
>>
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ?--Daily Kos poster

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 20:37:50 +0000

>>Hmmm.  Besides Silkhorn's ruminations,
>>I can't see any evidence at all that Oreb would not be Oreb.

>Oh, I agree--I think he's definitely still Oreb. [snip]
>But I think his instinct, that Oreb is another bird perfectly
>imitating Oreb, is still supposed to tell us something about
>the movement of souls in the book and about SilkHorn's
>understanding of himself--I think there's a bit in
>OBW where SilkHorn says he isn't Silk but has done his
>best to imitate him for his entire life.

Well, he's not the same Oreb because he's Scylla.
No one else seems to wonder that Oreb was able to die and resurrect himself. 
It makes me believe that someone was possessing him at that time. But that's 
just me. But that would doubly make the Oreb of most of SS different from 
the Oreb of most of LS.

FWIW I think the whole speech is pointing to the fact that the Neighbor has 
been imitating Horn who imitated Silk. The whole thing harkens back to VRT 
of "The Fifth Head of Cerberus".

J.

---

From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 20:41:42 +0000

You mean waaaaaaay back in Nightside?

On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 4:37 PM, James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com> wrote:

> No one else seems to wonder that Oreb was able to die and resurrect
> himself. It makes me believe that someone was possessing him at that time.
> But that's just me. But that would doubly make the Oreb of most of SS
> different from the Oreb of most of LS.
>
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From: Jordon Flato <jordonflato at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 20:46:10 +0000

James,
In this reading of SS I've been looking for NeighberHorn clues, and just
don't find anything at all that seems viable.  It's a nifty theory, but it
just seems to be a huge stretch to me, and I've been trying to pay close
attention.

Have you gone back and reread it lately to look for more evidence?  I'd be
interested to follow that.

On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 1:41 PM, John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>wrote:

>> FWIW I think the whole speech is pointing to the fact that the Neighbor
>> has been imitating Horn who imitated Silk. The whole thing harkens back to
>> VRT of "The Fifth Head of Cerberus".
>>
>> J.
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From: Jordon Flato <jordonflato at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 20:46:32 +0000

And wait, why am I not remembering when Oreb died in LS?

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From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 20:51:40 +0000

Oreb faints in Nightside right as Silk is about to sacrifice him to the
Outsider.  Silk assumes he's dead, discards the body and returns, after his
adventure at Blood's, to find Oreb fluttering about.
It's a weird scene.  Oreb definitely appears to be dead and definitely
appears to return, and it's weird that an augur, who kills animals with
regularity, would be fooled by a mere faint.

On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 4:46 PM, Jordon Flato <jordonflato at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 1:46 PM, Jordon Flato <jordonflato at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> James,
>>   On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 1:41 PM, John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com
>> > wrote:
>>
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From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 20:52:00 +0000

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From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 21:08:50 +0000

>In this reading of SS I've been looking for NeighberHorn clues,
>and just don't find anything at all that seems viable.
>It's a nifty theory, but it just seems to be a huge stretch to me,
>and I've been trying to pay close attention.
 >Have you gone back and reread it lately to look for more evidence?
>I'd be interested to follow that.

Not yet, but it's on my list of things to do. I'm currently working straight 
through from FHoC, Peace, Devil in the Forest, etc etc etc. Still, it will 
be very hard to overcome "I just don't see it".

1) Horn was resurrected from the dead after three days even though Seawrack 
and Babbie were not in any doubt that he was dead. I doubt I'll find more 
compelling evidence than that.

2) Resurrected Horn shakes hands with a Neighbor who declares that he 
himself is Horn.

3) The Raja flat out denies that he is the fellow (whose name he forgets) 
that wore a ring and died on Green and was transferred to a body on the 
Whorl. Yet asserts (a lie) that in fact he is Horn (who died in the pit).

Incidentally, (not that it proves anything, I guess) in interviews Wolfe 
refers to the narrator of SS as the Raja. Not Horn. Not Silkhorn.

>And wait, why am I not remembering when Oreb died in LS?

Chapter 2 of Nightside. Silk bought Oreb to sacrifice him to the Outsider. 
But just before he could, Oreb dropped dead (a bad sign).  And then suddenly 
*he's alive again*! Some people say Oreb was only faking which strikes me as 
very similar to what some say about dead Horn in the pit.

J.

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 21:15:20 +0000

>I said: "I doubt I'll find more compelling evidence than that."

I meant, "more compelling than those three items."

There is one other that I just remembered. The Raja barely eats. He seems to 
not really need it. He confesses that he fakes eating a lot. But when Spring 
comes he is suddenly ravenous. I suppose that does not prove he is a 
Neighbor, but it does suggest that he's not merely human.

J.

---

From: Jordon Flato <jordonflato at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 21:33:40 +0000

Yeah, I note all of those points, and just don't find them compelling,
sorry.  We'll probably just see it differently.

I also just don't see how it adds anything to the thematic content, and to
me it also takes away from it, which is one of the tests I usually posit
Wolfe Textual theories against.

Again, don't mean you ain't right, just that I don't see it.

For instance, seeing someone unmoving at the bottom of a dimly lit pit from
30 feet, and assuming them dead, does not, to me, seem at all unusual.

And as for the neighbor saying "I am Horn" I can write more on that later.
That one line, if taken by itself, may indicate what you mean.  To me, you
then have to contort yourself into thematic pretzles to indicate how a
Neighbor giving permission to a neighbor (horn), is in any way thematically
or textually intersesting...to me.  What would the point of that be?  Oh,
hey, you may not know it yet, but you are a sleeper agent, and we'll get you
to agree to let us come back to this planet to visit, as a representative
of...*wink wink*...humanity!

Anyway, I'm really not trying to be dismissive.  I see your points, just
don't feel them in any way.

And Oreb was clearly faking it.  Not resurrecting. ;)

On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 2:08 PM, James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com> wrote:

> Not yet, but it's on my list of things to do. I'm currently working
> straight through from FHoC, Peace, Devil in the Forest, etc etc etc. Still,
> it will be very hard to overcome "I just don't see it".
>
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From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 21:36:42 +0000

--- On Thu, 4/16/09, James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> 3) The Raja flat out denies that he is the fellow (whose
> name he forgets) that wore a ring and died on Green and was
> transferred to a body on the Whorl. Yet asserts (a lie) that
> in fact he is Horn (who died in the pit).
> 
> Incidentally, (not that it proves anything, I guess) in
> interviews Wolfe refers to the narrator of SS as the Raja.
...

Sorry to respond with a spelling correction rather than
something substantive, but it's "Rajan".

Jerry Friedman

---

From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 21:37:13 +0000

> compelling evidence than that.

This is certainly compelling evidence that a Neighbor or more than one did
something.  I tend to agree that in some sense the being who comes out of
the pit is not the same being who fell into it--as I've said before, this
new entity has the life/blood/essence of a Neighbor and the will/memory/soul
of Horn.  Whether he's a different being, the same being resurrected with a
new, alien element, or two beings in one is a tougher question.

> 2) Resurrected Horn shakes hands with a Neighbor who declares that he

This could mean a hundred things.  My inclination is to believe that the
resurrected Horn is still in a very important sense Horn--otherwise the
Neighbor's decision to treat with him is pretty dishonest and confusing.  Of
course, it would be almost as confusing if Horn were merely Horn.  It seems
to me that his authority to treat on behalf of humanity is derived unique
status as part-Neighbor--he is ideally suited to serve as a "greatest
bridge" between the peoples.

> Whorl. Yet asserts (a lie) that in fact he is Horn (who died in the pit).

You do this consistently, but isn't it "Rajan"?  Regardless, the Rajan is
lying when he says that and when he says he can't remember the guy's
name--he's trying to avoid confessing that he's been to Green (I think
because he's trying to draw out Fava).

> refers to the narrator of SS as the Raja. Not Horn. Not Silkhorn.

That appears to be Wolfe's name for the gestalt being who writes the books
down.  Calling him "SilkHorn" might be giving away the store, after all.
 Still, it supports the theory that he's a Neighbor in part as well.
 Frankly, if there's no Neighbor in him, his astral projection makes no
sense to me.  Then again, Mora's posession power and dream-walking don't
make much sense to me either.

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From: Jordon Flato <jordonflato at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 21:43:18 +0000

I can see evidence for Neighbor blood or something neighborly being given to
Horn in the pit.  As a matter of fact, I've taken it as a given.  A neighbor
visits him, and sends his spirt to Nettle (after touching him on the
forehead).  Something very real happened there, which does connect Horn to
the Neighbors directly somehow.  However, I don't think there is a transfer
of souls.

The dream projection to me is directly related, in part, to the ability of
the Inhumu to project an image of themselves into the mind of humans,
probably coupled with the ability of the neighbors to project themselves.
It's a confusing element, to be sure.

On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 2:37 PM, John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>wrote:

>> 1) Horn was resurrected from the dead after three days even though
>> Seawrack and Babbie were not in any doubt that he was dead. I doubt I'll
>> find more compelling evidence than that.
>>
>
> course, it would be almost as confusing if Horn were merely Horn.  It
> seems to me that his authority to treat on behalf of humanity is derived
> unique status as part-Neighbor--he is ideally suited to serve as a "greatest
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From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 21:48:33 +0000

>>You do this consistently, but isn't it "Rajan"?

>something substantive, but it's "Rajan".

If I understand this properly, "Rajan" is the form of address. "O Rajan, 
aren't you Silk?"
"Raja" is the nominative tense: "The Raja crawled out of the pit.

J.

---

From: Jordon Flato <jordonflato at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 21:48:41 +0000

Rajan.....

;)

On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 2:15 PM, James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com> wrote:

> There is one other that I just remembered. The Raja barely eats. He seems
> to not really need it. He confesses that he fakes eating a lot. But when
> Spring comes he is suddenly ravenous. I suppose that does not prove he is a
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From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 21:49:31 +0000

I've been keeping an eye out for that eating thing, and it is more or less
as you say.  That point would be more compelling if Silk hadn't had such a
weird relationship with food back in Long Sun.  It really could be nothing
more than Horn's appetite and tendency to get heavier fighting it out with
Silk's habit of fasting, with each having an upper hand at different times.
Then again, it could be what you say.

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From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 21:51:15 +0000

I don't think so...my OBW character index lists people like "Hoop, one of
the RAJAN's scribes" and "Pehla, the RAJAN's principal concubine."

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From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 22:19:23 +0000

>>If I understand this properly, "Rajan" is the form of address.
>>"O Rajan, aren't you Silk?"
>>"Raja" is the nominative tense: "The Raja crawled out of the pit."

>I don't think so...my OBW character index lists people
>like "Hoop, one of the RAJAN's scribes" and "Pehla,
>the RAJAN's principal concubine."

eh...okay. I think I'm technically right, but I'll conform to avoid 
antagonizing the list.

J.

---

From: Jordon Flato <jordonflato at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 22:24:09 +0000

Well, I don't want you to back down, I just don't remember a single instance
of Raja in the books.  Seems like if it was a valid conjugate, it would
appear at least once.

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From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 22:42:22 +0000

>Well, I don't want you to back down,
>I just don't remember a single instance of Raja
>in the books.  Seems like if it was a valid conjugate,
>it would appear at least once.

I don't mind backing down about stuff I don't care much about. In Sanskrit 
"Raja" is the nominative tense. Just because I'm technically accurate 
doesn't mean I'm *textually* accurate. I didn't imagine it would make a 
difference to anyone but me.

J.

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 22:50:34 +0000

>I also just don't see how it adds anything
>to the thematic content, and to me it also
>takes away from it, which is one of the tests
>I usually posit Wolfe Textual theories against.

It is loaded with thematic content.
1) Foremost, it is a rationalization of the Trinity: Father, Son, and Holy 
Spirit--the same and yet distinct.  In Augustinian theology, the person of 
the Holy Spirit is the relationship, the love, the connection between the 
Father and the Son. Of course, it works even better if one accepts that Horn 
is a clone of Typhon and that Silk is the son of Typhon and Kypris and that 
Silk is possessed by (or in some other way *is*) Pas/Typhon. But it is not 
necessary.

2) Also, the ability for the Ring Bearer Horn to receive the rights to Blue 
is analogous to the right of Jesus Christ to have redeem humanity and to be 
the Mediator between God and man: He must be 100% human and 100% Neighbor.

3) It also fits with concepts that Wolfe has tinkered with elsewhere, such 
as the alien VRT becoming a "perfect" imitation of Marsch and Mani the cat 
being neither a cat nor an elemental spirit.

>For instance, seeing someone unmoving at the bottom
>of a dimly lit pit from 30 feet, and assuming them dead,
>does not, to me, seem at all unusual.
>[snip]

(sigh)
Maybe you're just tweaking my ear. But, there are readers who believe
this so I'll act like you aren't:
An ability to perfectly feign death well enough to fool four expert
witnesses is a power I was not aware night choughs possessed. I'm sure
you've held birds in your hand before. An avian heartbeat is not something
that one would fail to detect. But maybe Horn learned it from Oreb.

>And as for the neighbor saying "I am Horn" I can write more
>on that later.  That one line, if taken by itself, may indicate
>what you mean.

This would mean nothing to me except when combined with the other stuff.
Sure, you can individually dispense each of these in turn. Seawrack could 
not be as sure Horn was dead as she claimed. The Neighbor identifying 
himself as Horn could mean many things (even if the *Rajan* is Horn, it's 
not absolutely clear what it means). Horn's denial that he was on Green was 
to draw out Fava (then why tell the story?). Silk is a an anorexic 
masochist.
Oh yeah, then there is the *Rajan* saying that he killed Hide and Hoof's 
father.

But you pile all these together and they point to something else. They do to 
me, anyway. I could be wrong in the particular explanation, I guess, but 
there is something more than Horn-->SilkHorn going on, and I don't know what 
resolves all these better than what I've presented.

Of course, I'm right but Wolfe's stories are big enough for the both of us.
;-)

J.

---

From: Robin Dunn <bigbadgerjohnny at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 22:51:20 +0000

You know we Wolfe fiends, we'll analyze every last word like it was
from the holy mouth of Joyce ;)

On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 3:42 PM, James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com> wrote:
>> in the books. ?Seems like if it was a valid conjugate,

---

From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 22:51:33 +0000

Yes, it's possible that this subtlety escaped Wolfe.

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From: Jordon Flato <jordonflato at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 22:57:53 +0000

I just have equally compelling arguments in my head for each of those
instances that point to other things, that's all.

It is a big book indeed.

And no, I'm not tweaking your ear about Oreb.  Maybe Wolfe didn't do as good
of a job in thinking about the inability to distinguish between alive and
dead birds as you, but to me, it seems ridiculous to posit a resurrected
Oreb.  By whom?  Is Silk Severian now, and Oreb Triskele?  Was Oreb Scylla
the entire time?  Can Mainframe gods ressurect dead animals?  What point
would ressurecting a character have when that character was just introduced.

If you could answer any of those questions (maybe you can) then I might
entertain the thought.  I can't think of possible expliantions for any of
them, though.

On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 3:50 PM, James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com> wrote:

> But you pile all these together and they point to something else. They do
> to me, anyway. I could be wrong in the particular explanation, I guess, but
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From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 23:01:00 +0000

I mostly agree with you, but I want to take some points in turn.

> to draw out Fava (then why tell the story?).

He told the story with the intent of the inhuma present revealing herself to
him.  The whole goal was to accurately describe Green so that the inhuma
would react with surprise to the fact that he had already been there.  He
strongly suspected Fava already and so watched her.  His intent was not to
reinforce the belief that he was a witch, and so he did not want to suggest
that he had had those adventures on Green.

Do you really think he had momentarily forgotten Horn's name?

> Silk is a an anorexic masochist.

Silk does fast, whether this makes him these things or not.  It's mentioned
at least twice in Nightside.

> Oh yeah, then there is the *Rajan* saying that he killed Hide and Hoof's

Not sure much can be made of this.  The entity known as "Horn" has ceased to
exist in any meaningful sense by the time that comment is made (unless he's
in Babbie, which the Rajan might not be aware of).

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From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 23:17:01 +0000

> >in the books.  Seems like if it was a valid conjugate,

Declension?

> "Raja" is the nominative tense.

Case?

> Just because I'm technically accurate 

Apparently I was part of one of those Zeitgeist things that
caused people to have the same reaction all at once.
Strange.

Anyway, I'm impressed that you know about the vocative
case in Sanskrit, as I know nothing about Sanskrit.  But
"cald?" must be deliberately inaccurate Spanish for
"alcalde", maybe suggesting linguistic change over the
millennia, so "the Rajan" could easily be something
similar.  Or just that we can't possibly decline anything
in English--having a different form for "Kill the Rajan"
or "I gave the Rajan permission"--so Wolfe picked one.

Jerry Friedman

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 00:04:25 +0000

>>In Sanskrit

Sure.

> case in Sanskrit, as I know nothing about Sanskrit.

I don't speak Sanskrit. I looked it up (Thanks for that, Mr. Wolfe). 
Actually, I don' think there IS a modern term "rajan". Rajan is the term 
from which we get "raja" and the nominative *case* is "ray-jay".

J.

---

From: Matthew Groves <matthewalangroves at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 00:23:23 +0000

Do we know when Oreb(?) became Scylla?  He was no ordinary talking
night chough in Long Sun.  Is there any reason to think he wasn't
possessed by Scylla from the beginning?

---

From: Matthew Groves <matthewalangroves at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 00:26:35 +0000

Blasphemer!

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 00:52:58 +0000

>Jordan Flato:
>Maybe Wolfe didn't do as good of a job in thinking about
>the inability to distinguish between alive and dead birds as you,

Ehh....<shrug>

>Jordan Flato:
>but to me, it seems ridiculous to posit a resurrected Oreb.  Is Silk 
>Severian now, and Oreb Triskele?

Ha ha! Don't be silly. Quite the opposite since Oreb *died* when Silk 
touched him with his Claw.
;-)

>Jordan Flato:
>By whom? Was Oreb Scylla the entire time?

Could be, I guess, but I don't think so. I believe it was Pas who had fled 
to Oreb among other places when he was purged by Echidna and Co.
Hierax, Tartaros or even the Outsider himself are reasonable candidates as 
well, I suppose.

>Matthew Groves:
>Do we know when Oreb(?) became Scylla?
>He was no ordinary talking night chough in Long Sun.
>Is there any reason to think he wasn't possessed by
>Scylla from the beginning?

Well, the Rajan postulates that he was possessed by Scylla during the 
sacrifice just before they returned to Blue, but that doesn't mean anything 
really. The reason I doubt it is because she would have no reason to possess 
a night chough during the whole of the LS story rather than re-integrate and 
punish Silk for trying to kill her. Also, Oreb is a great aid to Silk and 
Awk in resurrecting Pas. I would have expected some interference in their 
mission if it were Scylla in there. That's how I would have written it.

>Jordan Flato:
>Can Mainframe gods resurrect dead animals?

The Mainframe gods can dramatically extend the lives of people they possess 
as Pas did with Jerboa. They can summon every snake in the area at a whim as 
Echidna did. They can heighten the senses of their vessels to perform feats 
otherwise impossible as Kypris did allowing Chenille to throw a knife and 
have it hit the same hole twice. Whenever anyone dies, bio or chem, their 
identities are instantly recorded in Mainframe.

All bets are off on what the Mainframe gods are incapable of. In fact, all 
this is probably only conceivable if one presumes that the entire Cargo was 
genetically modified to allow the gods to use them as puppets. So, yeah, I 
think a Mainframe god could probably kill and resurrect a vessel at will, at 
least temporarily. It is also possible that the god made Oreb *all but* 
dead...slowing his heart-rate undetectably.

I suppose there are limits, though. A possessed person probably can't flap 
his arms and fly to Mainframe. Oreb is capable of speaking only two words at 
a time no matter who possesses him.

>Jordan Flato:
>What point would resurrecting a character have when
>that character was just introduced.

Umm...to bring him back to life? Anyway, if you were Pas hiding out or any 
other god for that matter, this is a reasonable method to prevent your 
vessel from being destroyed before you could return to Mainframe.  And 
having Silk buy Oreb to sacrifice him is a good way to get them introduced.

There is one other thing, but I doubt anyone would be converted by it but 
me. Pas is New Testament Greek for "all". Another Greek word for "all" is 
"pan", and Pan is the only god to have died in historical time (Plutarch's 
lives) just before the birth of Christ. Finally, Pas is the demonic 
equivalent of Zeus who is also famously said to have died (his tomb was 
honored by the Cretans). Oreb dying is supposed to be a flag that Pas is in 
him, because (although we don't know it yet) Pas is "dead" at this point in 
the book.

I can't imagine that Wolfe really thought that Oreb inexplicably dying and 
reanimating would not raise an eye-brow among his readers to whom he has 
taught Textual Paranoia. For me, the fact that *Silk* supposed Oreb had just 
fainted and not died is evidence enough that that supposition is wrong. In 
Wolfe stories, the initial rationalization of a weird event is never the 
right one.

J.

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 01:14:16 +0000

One should always be skeptical of resurrections in fiction. ;)

But remember, Severian was resurrected about half a dozen times. Why not an analog of the familiar of Apollo?

[Incidentally, I am sure "Raja(h)" never appears in SS. I would have noticed if it did.]

Message: 7
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 15:57:53 -0700
From: Jordon Flato <jordonflato at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: (urth) Urth Digest, Vol 56, Issue 37
To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
Message-ID:
	<273409710904161557j4c975f83oec02fbc987bdb3f8 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

It is a big book indeed.

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From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 01:18:51 +0000

>I mostly agree with you, but I want to take some points in turn.

I hereby pick up the gauntlet.

>Do you really think he had momentarily forgotten Horn's name?

**************************
IGJ (HB) pg 122
"Was this you for real Incanto? Were you on Green? By Echidna's babies, I
think you were!"

I shook my head and told him it had been someone else, a man whose name I
have forgotten, a man who wore a ring with a white stone. My own name is
Horn, no matter what Oreb may say.
***********************

This is disassociation.  Horn lives on only in the Rajan's memories of 
Horn's memories from when he and Horn were one. He is focused on being and 
imitating *Horn*, not the creature named Horn who was created in the pit 
from a Neighbor and a human corpse.  That creature has ceased to exist as 
well, just as Mani would cease to exist when the cat died. He also lives 
only in the Rajan's memories. But the Rajan has so many alternate memories 
now, he's confused. But it is clear (to me) from this statement that the 
Rajan sees a distinction between "Horn" and the man who died on Green.

>at least twice in Nightside.

Granted, but when it is combined with the onset of ravenous hunger in the 
Spring, we know more is going on here (incidentally, this is more of that 
Tree-Neighbor connection that I still don't understand). I do not recall an 
instance of LS Silk pretending to eat food set before him. He fasts, but 
when there is not a lot of food available anyway, it is easy to be holy in 
that way. Not the same thing as what happens in SS, I think.

>Not sure much can be made of this.
>The entity known as "Horn" has ceased to exist in any meaningful
>sense by the time that comment is made
>(unless he's in Babbie, which the Rajan might not be aware of).

Yes, Horn had died, and the Horn-Neighbor had ceased to exist, but the 
entity who had accidentally killed the father of Hoof and Hide lived on, 
just as Mani's elemental spirit would live on after the cat died. Other than 
this explanation, however, nothing much can be made of this statement that 
satisfies me.

J.

---

From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 04:14:02 +0000

There are other possibilities.  For instance, the narrators
could have added their comments, perhaps overtly raising
the question of who they are.  That is, Wolfe could have
made them the kind of characters who would do that and who
would have interesting things to say.

They could have quoted Silk's letters, written-out sermons,
or other documents, maybe with an explanation of how they
got hold of them.  ("Take these with you.  There may be
something in them you can use for your book.")

They could have just inserted extended thoughts for Silk
into the narrative, as they did brief thoughts and
feelings.  If necessary, at the end they could have said
something like, "What we showed Silk thinking about the
soul and body is mostly what he told us sprats in the
palaestra one day."

No doubt there are more options a writer like Wolfe
could have come up, and I think it would have been to
the book's benefit if he'd chosen one.

Jerry Friedman

--- On Thu, 4/16/09, David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net> wrote:
> Doesn't the style of narration depend entirely on the
> narrator and his/her circumstances? That is, how else should
> the narrator of LS have narrated?
> 
> That scene-by scene style, without introspection, was
> certainly a shift after Severian's many-layered and
> discursive account. But Silk doesn't narrate LS.
> 
> <925508.79653.qm at web50710.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

---

From: Mo Holkar / UKG <lists at ukg.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 05:55:17 +0000

At 01:04 17/04/2009, James Wynn wrote:
>Actually, I don' think there IS a modern term "rajan". Rajan is the 
>term from which we get "raja" and the nominative *case* is "ray-jay".

There are quite a few modern languages descended from Sanskrit. In at 
least one of them -- Nepali -- "Rajan" is the ordinary nominative 
case that corresponds to Hindi "Raja".

best,

Mo

# ~ # ~ #

WolfeWiki -- a wiki about Gene Wolfe
http://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/

---

From: b sharp <bsharporflat at hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 12:51:14 +0000

>The Raja barely eats. He seems to 
>not really need it. He confesses that he fakes eating a lot.
 
Reminds me of Dr. Talos, a construct, who doesn't need to sleep
but fakes gratitude when Severian offers to relieve him on night
watch.

-bsharp
_________________________________________________________________
Rediscover Hotmail?: Now available on your iPhone or BlackBerry
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---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 16:40:33 +0000

> case that corresponds to Hindi "Raja".

Ah! Then perhaps the culture of Gaon is Napalese.

J.

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 18:11:14 +0000

>> least one of them -- Nepali -- "Rajan" is the ordinary nominative case 
>> that corresponds to Hindi "Raja".
>

According to wikipedia, "gaon" means "village" in Hindi, Marathi 
(central-east India), Assamese (west India). Is it a term in Nepalese as 
well?

J.

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 09:05:06 +0000

> but fakes gratitude when Severian offers to relieve him on night

Is it really fake? He might have other things to do than watch out for 
antagonists.

-- 
Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com
< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >