{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5416", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5416, "subject": "Rajan and Food", "messages": 16, "voices": 7, "first": "2009-04-28T10:58:32+00:00", "last": "2009-04-30T21:39:47+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<011001c9c7f0$465a20c0$d30e6240$@com>", "from": { "name": "Brian Lovely", "address": "brian at studiobl.com" }, "date": "2009-04-28T10:58:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rajan and Food", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He's a tree, he's a tree! Neighbors are trees, Inhumi are parasitic vines.\n.or something. Not sure what the Neighbor-version of Inhumi are-maybe the\nvine with a face that is cut for Incanto's staff. Except that seems so\nquiescent. You'd think the Neighbor-Inhumi would be a bit more active. The\nInhumi are somehow about sacrifice and one race raising up another. The\nNeighbors infected humans with Inhumi to see what human-Inhumi would be\nlike.not sure where I'm going with this, but there's something here about\nbeing willing to suffer for the betterment of the Inhumi. So, a) the\ncrossbreed would be a \"higher\" being than the pure Inhumi, and b) you'd rid\nyourself of them by being so passive.they'd take on your Christ-like\nwillingness to sacrifice yourself.\n\n \n\n \n\n \n\n\"James Wynn\" crushtv at gmail.com wrote:\n\n \n\nGranted, but when it is combined with the onset of ravenous hunger in the\nSpring, we know more is going on here (incidentally, this is more of that\nTree-Neighbor connection that I still don't understand). I do not recall an\ninstance of LS Silk pretending to eat food set before him. He fasts, but\nwhen there is not a lot of food available anyway, it is easy to be holy in\nthat way. Not the same thing as what happens in SS, I think.\n\n \n\n \n\n--Brian Lovely" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-28T12:04:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rajan and Food", "in_reply_to": "<011001c9c7f0$465a20c0$d30e6240$@com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He's a tree, he's a tree! Neighbors are trees,\nInhumi are parasitic vines. .or something.\nNot sure what the Neighbor-version of Inhumi\nare-maybe the vine with a face that is cut for Incanto's staff." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Brian, let's posit that the Neighbors are dryads--that their steady physical \nform is one of the \"sleepy trees\" in the forests of Blue. How do the inhumi \nmake the jump to become vines? Or how do they transform back to \nwinged/clawed vampiric reptiles? That is the fundamental problem with any \n\"tree/vine theory\" regarding the Neighbors and inhumi.\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<273409710904281100p29971f87s893b7b7aff2a2e5b@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-28T18:00:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rajan and Food", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've wondered if the strange creature (not the leatherskin) that jumps on\nthe ship with Horn when he first sets out, which is described much like a\nneighbor but faaaar scarier isn't maybe a nieghbor/inhumi remnant. That is\nwhat occurred to me.\n\nI can't get behind the neighbors as trees/inhumi as vines theory at all. It\nseems like such a stretch. There is no denying a connection of some sort\nbetween trees and neighbors. I'm not certain it is a literal connection.\nIn New Sun, there are instances of Wolfe anthropomorphising trees and such.\nWith human qualities. Why wouldn't the same be true on another planet, but\nechoing the essense of the 'original' inhabitants, the neighbors.\n\nAnd I think, in terms of the Neighbors infecting the inhumi on the Whorl, it\nwas primarily to get a sense of what the souls of the humans were like.\nWhen they saw the result, they made their deciscion that they could give the\nworld to Humans, as they had confidence that the humans would have a chance,\nthat the neighbors did not, to end the cycle of inhumi/host extinction, due\nto the possible quailities of the human soul. I think, in Horn/Silk in\nparticular (keeping in mind that when the neighbors gave Blue to humans\nthrough Horn, he was still Horn and not Silk at all), they saw something in\nhumanity (in my opinion, not his being a neighbor doppleganger) that\nconvinced them that they might be able, at some point, to make a peace with\nthe inhumi. They wouldn't have known that if they had not first infected\nthe Whorl with inhumi.\n\nWhat is much more controversial to me is that the neighbors say they also\nspent time on the whorl, and befriended some there. What are the\nimplications of this? Who did they befriend? We have an inhumi character\nin Long Sun. Is there a as yet unidentified Neighbor?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 5:04 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nHe's a tree, he's a tree! Neighbors are trees,\nInhumi are parasitic vines. .or something." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Not sure what the Neighbor-version of Inhumi\nare-maybe the vine with a face that is cut for Incanto's staff." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Brian, let's posit that the Neighbors are dryads--that their steady\nphysical form is one of the \"sleepy trees\" in the forests of Blue. How do\nthe inhumi make the jump to become vines? Or how do they transform back to\nwinged/clawed vampiric reptiles? That is the fundamental problem with any\n\"tree/vine theory\" regarding the Neighbors and inhumi.\n\nJ.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<273409710904281103v6270d8b2i38ef3f35b0c5ffdb@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-28T18:03:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rajan and Food", "in_reply_to": "<273409710904281100p29971f87s893b7b7aff2a2e5b@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Also, it seems like the Neighbors choose to enslave the inhumi, much like\nhumans were doing to each other. They were wiped out because of it. I see\nno evidence of the neighbors having\" rid yourself of them by being so\npassive they’d take on your Christ-like willingness to sacrifice yourself.\"\nThey failed in that regard spectacularly, apparently. However, Silk/Horn\ntaking one as a son, and maybe being the first being to actually LOVE\nanother inhumi, is the christlike action, that 'changes the rules' as hide\nsays at the end of the Whorl.\n\nIt is the Love for the inhumi that gives the possibility of their redemption\nand the ending of the cycle. At least it seems so to me." } ] }, { "message_id": "<000c01c9c84e$56304ca0$0290e5e0$@com>", "from": { "name": "Brian Lovely", "address": "brian at studiobl.com" }, "date": "2009-04-28T22:11:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rajan and Food", "in_reply_to": "<273409710904281103v6270d8b2i38ef3f35b0c5ffdb@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, whatever the Neighbors are to trees, the Inhumi are to vines. Maybe\ntheir base form is the slug-like thing that drops out of a tree on green,\nkind of an amphibian that lays its eggs in water. But if there base form is\njust a vine, then feeding on something higher pulls them up from vine to\namphibian. It's all up. The uncrossed Inhumi are still vines, those who\nhave managed to move up a level are slugs, those who have fed on humans are\nbat-winged devils.\n\nCrossbreeding. The corn that Horn seeks on the Whorl. The underwater\ngreenhouses, the strange doubling of limbs that many creatures on Blue\nexhibit. I read somewhere in the list a theory about polyploidy something\nor other--some biology that I don't know anything about--but the upshot was\nthat you can cross corn in such a way that the genetic pattern is\ndoubled...something like that. More to the point, like beasts with eight\nlegs. Who was crossbreeding who, and why? Did the Neighbors have to change\nthemselves in order to survive? Were the 8-legged animals experiments, to\nperfect the technique? " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Message: 2\nDate: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 07:04:11 -0500\nFrom: \"James Wynn\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Rajan and Food\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=\"iso-8859-1\";\n\treply-type=original\n\nHe's a tree, he's a tree! Neighbors are trees,\nInhumi are parasitic vines. .or something.\nNot sure what the Neighbor-version of Inhumi\nare-maybe the vine with a face that is cut for Incanto's staff.\n\nBrian, let's posit that the Neighbors are dryads--that their steady physical\n\nform is one of the \"sleepy trees\" in the forests of Blue. How do the inhumi \nmake the jump to become vines? Or how do they transform back to \nwinged/clawed vampiric reptiles? That is the fundamental problem with any \n\"tree/vine theory\" regarding the Neighbors and inhumi.\n\nJ. \n\n\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 3\nDate: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 11:00:10 -0700\nFrom: Jordon Flato \nSubject: Re: (urth) Rajan and Food\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID:\n\t<273409710904281100p29971f87s893b7b7aff2a2e5b at mail.gmail.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nI've wondered if the strange creature (not the leatherskin) that jumps on\nthe ship with Horn when he first sets out, which is described much like a\nneighbor but faaaar scarier isn't maybe a nieghbor/inhumi remnant. That is\nwhat occurred to me.\n\nI can't get behind the neighbors as trees/inhumi as vines theory at all. It\nseems like such a stretch. There is no denying a connection of some sort\nbetween trees and neighbors. I'm not certain it is a literal connection.\nIn New Sun, there are instances of Wolfe anthropomorphising trees and such.\nWith human qualities. Why wouldn't the same be true on another planet, but\nechoing the essense of the 'original' inhabitants, the neighbors.\n\nAnd I think, in terms of the Neighbors infecting the inhumi on the Whorl, it\nwas primarily to get a sense of what the souls of the humans were like.\nWhen they saw the result, they made their deciscion that they could give the\nworld to Humans, as they had confidence that the humans would have a chance,\nthat the neighbors did not, to end the cycle of inhumi/host extinction, due\nto the possible quailities of the human soul. I think, in Horn/Silk in\nparticular (keeping in mind that when the neighbors gave Blue to humans\nthrough Horn, he was still Horn and not Silk at all), they saw something in\nhumanity (in my opinion, not his being a neighbor doppleganger) that\nconvinced them that they might be able, at some point, to make a peace with\nthe inhumi. They wouldn't have known that if they had not first infected\nthe Whorl with inhumi.\n\nWhat is much more controversial to me is that the neighbors say they also\nspent time on the whorl, and befriended some there. What are the\nimplications of this? Who did they befriend? We have an inhumi character\nin Long Sun. Is there a as yet unidentified Neighbor?\n\nOn Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 5:04 AM, James Wynn wrote:\n\nHe's a tree, he's a tree! Neighbors are trees,\nInhumi are parasitic vines. .or something." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Not sure what the Neighbor-version of Inhumi\nare-maybe the vine with a face that is cut for Incanto's staff." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Brian, let's posit that the Neighbors are dryads--that their steady\nphysical form is one of the \"sleepy trees\" in the forests of Blue. How do\nthe inhumi make the jump to become vines? Or how do they transform back to\nwinged/clawed vampiric reptiles? That is the fundamental problem with any\n\"tree/vine theory\" regarding the Neighbors and inhumi.\n\nJ.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49F7AF5C.5090707@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-04-29T01:37:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rajan and Food", "in_reply_to": "<000c01c9c84e$56304ca0$0290e5e0$@com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have no idea where it was, but I recall a fairly clear hint dropped that the inhumi evolved from parasitic vines. There is certainly no evidence that they are reptilian---merely reptile-like.\n\nAnd I agree that the Neighbors are somehow tree-related. Wolfe never wastes a clue, so there must be something to that.\n\nI don't see any problem with transformations from one form to another, although I wouldn't propose that the inhumi can change into vines and back any more than humans can change into monkeys and back. But they do have the capacity to winter underground just like plants.\n\nThe inhumi plainly are highly changeable, and do not need to conform to 20th-century notions of what a species is---especially since those notions are wrong. They change when they feed on sentient life; they change with the availability of food." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 2\nDate: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 07:04:11 -0500\nFrom: \"James Wynn\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Rajan and Food\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=\"iso-8859-1\";\n\treply-type=original" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "He's a tree, he's a tree! Neighbors are trees,\nInhumi are parasitic vines. .or something.\nNot sure what the Neighbor-version of Inhumi\nare-maybe the vine with a face that is cut for Incanto's staff." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n\nBrian, let's posit that the Neighbors are dryads--that their steady physical \nform is one of the \"sleepy trees\" in the forests of Blue. How do the inhumi \nmake the jump to become vines? Or how do they transform back to \nwinged/clawed vampiric reptiles? That is the fundamental problem with any \n\"tree/vine theory\" regarding the Neighbors and inhumi.\n\nJ. \n\n\n\n------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<39ed084f0904281951t3d791014v91db6a426f989a85@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Groves", "address": "matthewalangroves at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-29T02:51:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rajan and Food", "in_reply_to": "<49F7AF5C.5090707@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is equally possible that the inhumi on Green are vine-like, not\nbecause they evolved from vines, but because they feed on the trees on\nGreen, thus becoming more like them." } ] }, { "message_id": "<998581.4395.qm@web50702.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-04-29T03:07:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rajan and Food", "in_reply_to": "<000c01c9c84e$56304ca0$0290e5e0$@com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- On Tue, 4/28/09, Brian Lovely wrote:\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Crossbreeding. The corn that Horn seeks on the Whorl. The\nunderwater\ngreenhouses, the strange doubling of limbs that many\ncreatures on Blue\nexhibit. I read somewhere in the list a theory about\npolyploidy something\nor other--some biology that I don't know anything\nabout--but the upshot was\nthat you can cross corn in such a way that the genetic\npattern is\ndoubled...something like that. More to the point, like\nbeasts with eight legs." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\n\nI hope you read my response, pointing out that polyploid\nanimals don't have double the usual number of limbs.\n\nhttp://www.urth.net/urth/archives/v0203/382.txt.shtml\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<39ed084f0904282040y2b0776b1ycba04ed1420a3c2e@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Groves", "address": "matthewalangroves at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-29T03:40:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rajan and Food", "in_reply_to": "<998581.4395.qm@web50702.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, for me, the take-away from the argument about corn polyploidy\n(or whatever it's called) is not that the Neighbors have double the\nnormal chromosomes and therefore double the number of arms and legs.\nThat's silly. The point (IMO), or the suggestion, is that the corn\nhybridization business is, among other things, a *cue* that the\nNeighbors are (in some sense I don't quite understand) a hybridized or\nsomehow immanently corrupted species. Or maybe they're just fading\naway like successive generations of corn crops, and like the enigmatic\nghosts of Mars in Bradbury's Martian Chronicles (not John Carpenter).\nAnd the colonists represent a necessary pure strain for the rebirth of\ncivilization. At any rate, I think the case is very strong that Wolfe\nis constructing an analogy between the Neighbors and the diminishing\ncorn crop, and the colonists and the new seeds. In TBotNS, the\nprimary decay/rebirth image was seasonal; in TBotSS it's this corn\ngeneration thing. I believe it's Marc who deserves credit for this\ninsight." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I hope you read my response, pointing out that polyploid\nanimals don't have double the usual number of limbs.\n\nhttp://www.urth.net/urth/archives/v0203/382.txt.shtml\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<63FB9AC7E0AEC7459DBCC99DC44247CA031FA384@BOSIDEXDB.Bankofscotland.ie>", "from": { "name": "O'Donnell, Tim BOSI", "address": "tim.o'donnell at bankofscotland.ie" }, "date": "2009-04-29T10:43:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rajan and Food", "in_reply_to": "<39ed084f0904282040y2b0776b1ycba04ed1420a3c2e@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"James Wynn\" \nHe's a tree, he's a tree! Neighbors are trees,\nInhumi are parasitic vines. .or something.\nNot sure what the Neighbor-version of Inhumi\nare-maybe the vine with a face that is cut for Incanto's staff." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Brian, let's posit that the Neighbors are dryads--that their steady physical \nform is one of the \"sleepy trees\" in the forests of Blue. How do the inhumi \nmake the jump to become vines? Or how do they transform back to \nwinged/clawed vampiric reptiles? That is the fundamental problem with any \n\"tree/vine theory\" regarding the Neighbors and inhumi.\n\nJ. \n_________________________________\nJames, I wonder if the transformation Inhumi undergo when interred for long periods of time points to what happens to them?\nPerhaps given a long enough period without prey they simply shrivel down to the form of a vine?\n_________________________________\n\n\nFrom: Jordon Flato \n\nWhat is much more controversial to me is that the neighbors say they also\nspent time on the whorl, and befriended some there. What are the\nimplications of this? Who did they befriend? We have an inhumi character\nin Long Sun. Is there a as yet unidentified Neighbor?\n_________________________________\nFor my money Mucor is the most likely candidate for someone to have befriended a Neighbour.\nShe takes it in her stride when she meets Horn/Silk in the one body and seems to be pretty comfortable\n(though she doesn't like them much) with inhumi on the Whorl. I am sure a Neighbour would have made a good\ncompanion for her in her room pre-Silk's arrival. They could have chatted in whatever way their mysterious\nsoul-travel powers worked. In fact, it may have been possible for Mucor to have communicated from the Whorl\nwith the Neighbour (essences?) on the planets below.\n_________________________________\n\n\n\n************************************************************************************************\nFind out more about us at www.bankofscotland.ie \n\nThe information contained in this message is confidential and is intended for the addressee only. If you have received this message in error or there are any problems please notify the originator immediately. The unauthorised use, disclosure, copying or alteration of this message is strictly forbidden. This mail and any attachments have been scanned for viruses prior to leaving Bank of Scotland Ireland's network. \nBank of Scotland Ireland will not be liable for direct, special, indirect or consequential damages arising from alteration of the contents of this message by a third party or as a result of any virus being passed on. Bank of Scotland (Ireland) reserves the right to monitor and record e-mail messages sent to and from this address for the purposes of investigating or detecting any unauthorised use of its system and ensuring its effective operation.\n\nBank of Scotland (Ireland) Limited is part of HBOS plc and is regulated by the Financial Regulator. Registered in Ireland Number: 8545. Registered office: Bank of Scotland House, 124-127 St. Stephens Green, Dublin 2\n\n****************************************************************************************************" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9AD1435AF7FB42E993C2FE7140F986FC@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-29T13:39:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rajan and Food", "in_reply_to": "<63FB9AC7E0AEC7459DBCC99DC44247CA031FA384@BOSIDEXDB.Bankofscotland.ie>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Brian, let's posit that the Neighbors are dryads--\nthat their steady physical form is one of the\n\"sleepy trees\" in the forests of Blue. How do the inhumi\nmake the jump to become vines? Or how do they\ntransform back to winged/clawed vampiric reptiles?\nThat is the fundamental problem with any\n\"tree/vine theory\" regarding the Neighbors and inhumi.\nJ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_________________________________\nJames, I wonder if the transformation Inhumi undergo when\ninterred for long periods of time points to what happens to them?\nPerhaps given a long enough period without prey they simply\nshrivel down to the form of a vine?\n_________________________________" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, there are references to the trees and vines being at war with each \nother. So it implies that inhumi-as-vines are not inactive. And if they \n*were* inactive as vines why would they say \"Oh look! A human. I'll change \nto a reptilian winged clawed creature. And without humans and Neighbors they \nstill have other animals to feed on, just not creatures that would give \ntheir children souls. I'm not trying to be obtuse here. I can clearly map \nhow an inhumi becomes human:\n1) And inhuma feeds on a human.\n2) Her child is ensouled with humanity.\n3) The ensouled inhumi dream travels with a Neighbor and stays there.\n\nDavid is wrong about his implication that inhumi are not flatly asserted to \nbe animal; Although, the assertion is by the Rajan and he is not \nbiologist-expert on the life-forms of Green. Still. They give birth, and I \nseem to recall that they lay eggs. Nevertheless, he and I agree that there \n*is* some intended connection between Neighbor/Inhumi and Trees/Vines (and \nit's not metaphorical). I just don't understand how we get there.\nUnless....\n\nSuppose the trees are not the physical form of the Neighbors. Suppose they \nare the form of their souls? Then you have a Neighbor running around as a \ngreenbuck or some other form, and an inhumi bites him. The soul of the \ninhumi child would be plant-like. Then a Neighbor dream-travels with the \nensouled inhumi to Blue and voila! Except, shouldn't the inhumi's soul be a \ntree then?\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<49F85A49.3000006@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-04-29T13:46:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rajan and Food", "in_reply_to": "<9AD1435AF7FB42E993C2FE7140F986FC@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In diploidy, the number of genes is doubled. Sometimes the result is all-around greater viability, as with corn, and sometimes it is the opposite.\n\nEither way, it doesn't mean doubling the limbs of animals---but then, if all life on Green and Blue is somehow plant-derived ... why not?\n\nAnd of course diploidy is a metaphor for something here, and that possibility has been discussed.\n\n***By the way, can you point me to the underwater greenhouses in the text? I may have missed them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 2\nDate: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 18:11:49 -0400\nFrom: \"Brian Lovely\" \nSubject: (urth) Rajan and Food\nTo: \nMessage-ID: <000c01c9c84e$56304ca0$0290e5e0$@com>\nContent-Type: text/plain;\tcharset=\"us-ascii\"\n\nWell, whatever the Neighbors are to trees, the Inhumi are to vines. Maybe\ntheir base form is the slug-like thing that drops out of a tree on green,\nkind of an amphibian that lays its eggs in water. But if there base form is\njust a vine, then feeding on something higher pulls them up from vine to\namphibian. It's all up. The uncrossed Inhumi are still vines, those who\nhave managed to move up a level are slugs, those who have fed on humans are\nbat-winged devils.\n\nCrossbreeding. The corn that Horn seeks on the Whorl. The underwater\ngreenhouses, the strange doubling of limbs that many creatures on Blue\nexhibit. I read somewhere in the list a theory about polyploidy something\nor other--some biology that I don't know anything about--but the upshot was\nthat you can cross corn in such a way that the genetic pattern is\ndoubled...something like that. More to the point, like beasts with eight\nlegs. Who was crossbreeding who, and why? Did the Neighbors have to change\nthemselves in order to survive? Were the 8-legged animals experiments, to\nperfect the technique? " } ] }, { "message_id": "<49F87A1E.70804@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-04-29T16:02:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rajan and Food", "in_reply_to": "<49F85A49.3000006@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think part of the answer must include some loosening of our terms, especially soul vs body and plant vs animal. For example, if a soul can be a tree, then it won't be a tree as we know it, but some kind of soul-tree or tree-soul.\n\nAnd if a creature runs around on legs eating other creatures, it may still have evolved from plants, and thus be an \"animal\" only from an ecological point of view. It may still be a plant on the genetic and cellular level. (The Rajan can be right and wrong at the same time.)\n\nAnd if \"vine\" is merely a morphological term, it doesn't indicate lack of sentience or other qualities---merely that an alien creature grows very tall and skinny, lacks support structures, and feeds on the alien trees (which also provide support). \n\nAnd so on ..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 3\nDate: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 08:39:50 -0500\nFrom: \"James Wynn\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Rajan and Food\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: <9AD1435AF7FB42E993C2FE7140F986FC at eMachinePC>\nContent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=\"iso-8859-1\";\n\treply-type=original" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Brian, let's posit that the Neighbors are dryads--\nthat their steady physical form is one of the\n\"sleepy trees\" in the forests of Blue. How do the inhumi\nmake the jump to become vines? Or how do they\ntransform back to winged/clawed vampiric reptiles?\nThat is the fundamental problem with any\n\"tree/vine theory\" regarding the Neighbors and inhumi.\nJ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " \n_________________________________\nJames, I wonder if the transformation Inhumi undergo when\ninterred for long periods of time points to what happens to them?\nPerhaps given a long enough period without prey they simply\nshrivel down to the form of a vine?\n_________________________________" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n\nWell, there are references to the trees and vines being at war with each \nother. So it implies that inhumi-as-vines are not inactive. And if they \n*were* inactive as vines why would they say \"Oh look! A human. I'll change \nto a reptilian winged clawed creature. And without humans and Neighbors they \nstill have other animals to feed on, just not creatures that would give \ntheir children souls. I'm not trying to be obtuse here. I can clearly map \nhow an inhumi becomes human:\n1) And inhuma feeds on a human.\n2) Her child is ensouled with humanity.\n3) The ensouled inhumi dream travels with a Neighbor and stays there.\n\nDavid is wrong about his implication that inhumi are not flatly asserted to \nbe animal; Although, the assertion is by the Rajan and he is not \nbiologist-expert on the life-forms of Green. Still. They give birth, and I \nseem to recall that they lay eggs. Nevertheless, he and I agree that there \n*is* some intended connection between Neighbor/Inhumi and Trees/Vines (and \nit's not metaphorical). I just don't understand how we get there.\nUnless....\n\nSuppose the trees are not the physical form of the Neighbors. Suppose they \nare the form of their souls? Then you have a Neighbor running around as a \ngreenbuck or some other form, and an inhumi bites him. The soul of the \ninhumi child would be plant-like. Then a Neighbor dream-travels with the \nensouled inhumi to Blue and voila! Except, shouldn't the inhumi's soul be a \ntree then?\n\nJ. \n\n\n\n------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-29T17:27:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rajan and Food", "in_reply_to": "<49F87A1E.70804@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think part of the answer must include some loosening of our terms,\nespecially soul vs body and plant vs animal.\nFor example, if a soul can be a tree, then it won't be a tree as we know \nit,\nbut some kind of soul-tree or tree-soul." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To some extent you are right and yet wrong. When Horn's son sees Jahlee \nduring dream-travel, the Rajan admits that she is --in this state-- entirely \nhuman. But he warns him that they are also quite different and that a union \nbetween them would be wrong.\n\nSo if the soul form of the Neighbors is trees, then, yes, they won't be a \ntree as we know it, but the difference would be undetectable by the \ncolonists (unless they started moving around which they did for the \nresurrected Horn).\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<558036.88140.qm@web50710.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-04-30T17:56:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rajan and Food", "in_reply_to": "<49F85A49.3000006@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not to nitpick... okay, to nitpick. Diploidy is what we\nhave (except sperm and egg cells) and I think most organisms\nhave. Double the usual number of chromosomes is\ntetraploidy.\n\nJerry" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Wed, 4/29/09, David Stockhoff wrote:\nIn diploidy, the number of genes is doubled. Sometimes the\nresult is all-around greater viability, as with corn, and\nsometimes it is the opposite." } ] }, { "message_id": "<49FA1AA3.7080209@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-04-30T21:39:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rajan and Food", "in_reply_to": "<558036.88140.qm@web50710.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're right. And hybrid corn is tetraploid.\n\nIt's been a long time since college." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 10:56:39 -0700 (PDT)\nFrom: Jerry Friedman \nSubject: Re: (urth) Rajan and Food\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: <558036.88140.qm at web50710.mail.re2.yahoo.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii\n\n\nNot to nitpick... okay, to nitpick. Diploidy is what we\nhave (except sperm and egg cells) and I think most organisms\nhave. Double the usual number of chromosomes is\ntetraploidy.\n\nJerry\n\n--- On Wed, 4/29/09, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In diploidy, the number of genes is doubled. Sometimes the\nresult is all-around greater viability, as with corn, and\nsometimes it is the opposite." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n\n\n\n \n\n\n------------------------------" } ] } ] }