Subject: (urth) Greenhourse Effect (was Rajan and Food)

From: Brian Lovely <brian at studiobl.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 15:40:49 +0000

I'm with ya about it being a stretch from polyploidy to multiple limbs.
Still, with alien biologies....

Has anyone ever had any solid theories about the greenhouses?  Seawrack says
she's seen similar things on the ocean floor, so the one with the broken
dome that she and Horn find may have been pushed up by volcanic action at
some point.  Plus one of Horn's sons looks through one of the rings
associated with the Neighbors (can't remember which one) and sees a Neighbor
sitting on a tree sticking up out of the ocean.  Is this somehow a vision of
Neighbors crossbreeding themselves into dryads in underwater domes?  Inhumi
breed and lay their eggs in the water, but can they survive in salt water?
Maybe the domes are the only place proof against the Inhumi.  

A theme in the books is about growth through change, and often that change
comes about through physical hybridization (even just the consuming of
blood...the blood IS the life, you know), or imitation.  I guess the process
would be a sustained effort at close imitation actually triggers a change to
become more like the model.  The gods of the Whorl are capable of becoming
divine over time.  The Inhumi are capable of becoming human over time.
Humans are capable of...

I don't think the Neighbors have gone to another whorl circling another sun,
as Horn thinks (or was it SilkHorn, or Rajan, or Incanto?).  I think they've
gone into the "spaces between" to use a Lovecraftian term.  If they're
someplace physical, they're in the trees or in the undersea domes.  However
I think the undersea domes have something to do with an alteration performed
on someone by someone.  Maybe the Neighbors performed it on themselves to
make themselves less susceptible to the Inhumi.  Perhaps they're in the
trees as dryads now because of some modification performed on themselves in
the domes.  Or they were treelike and/or dryadic before and the modification
was to allow themselves to survive away from the trees.

Does anyone have any theories about what the greenhouses are for?

-----Original Message-----
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Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 11:40 PM
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Subject: Urth Digest, Vol 56, Issue 59

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re:  Urth Digest, Vol 56, Issue 58 (Robin Dunn)
   2.  Rajan and Food (Brian Lovely)
   3. Re:  Rajan and Food (David Stockhoff)
   4. Re:  Rajan and Food (Matthew Groves)
   5. Re:  Rajan and Food (Jerry Friedman)
   6. Re:  Rajan and Food (Matthew Groves)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 14:19:22 -0700
From: Robin Dunn <bigbadgerjohnny at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: (urth) Urth Digest, Vol 56, Issue 58
To: urth at lists.urth.net
Message-ID:
	<ccc836b60904281419n3c566f73yfcda4556ed74ba29 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Fascinating discussion of the moral parts the Neighbors play vis a vis
human settlement on Blue--

One thought I had is that it can be counterproductive to some extent
to expect that every creature we find in Wolfe fits into a detailed
bestiary that he had planned.

Severian narrates at some point in Thrax that he rarely reads tales
where strangers are encountered, no dialogue results, but some
nameless hatred is still there between men.  As I recall Severian has
this thought when he passes some guy that glares at him, without any
explanation.

Part of what I always liked about Wolfe is that he's willing to have
so many loose ends, and he's willing to introduce incredibly complex
ideas and characters almost as side-gags, before moving on to
something completely different.

I guess what I'm saying is, sometimes the crazy shit goes down, and we
stay in the dark ;)

On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 2:09 PM,  <urth-request at lists.urth.net> wrote:
> Send Urth mailing list submissions to
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>
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> Today's Topics:
>
> ? 1. ?Rajan and Food (Brian Lovely)
> ? 2. Re: ?Rajan and Food (James Wynn)
> ? 3. Re: ?Rajan and Food (Jordon Flato)
> ? 4. Re: ?Rajan and Food (Jordon Flato)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 06:58:32 -0400
> From: "Brian Lovely" <brian at studiobl.com>
> Subject: (urth) Rajan and Food
> To: <urth at lists.urth.net>
> Message-ID: <011001c9c7f0$465a20c0$d30e6240$@com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> He's a tree, he's a tree! Neighbors are trees, Inhumi are parasitic vines.
> .or something. ?Not sure what the Neighbor-version of Inhumi are-maybe the
> vine with a face that is cut for Incanto's staff. ?Except that seems so
> quiescent. ?You'd think the Neighbor-Inhumi would be a bit more active.
?The
> Inhumi are somehow about sacrifice and one race raising up another. ?The
> Neighbors infected humans with Inhumi to see what human-Inhumi would be
> like.not sure where I'm going with this, but there's something here about
> being willing to suffer for the betterment of the Inhumi. ?So, a) the
> crossbreed would be a "higher" being than the pure Inhumi, and b) you'd
rid
> yourself of them by being so passive.they'd take on your Christ-like
> willingness to sacrifice yourself.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "James Wynn" crushtv at gmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
> Granted, but when it is combined with the onset of ravenous hunger in the
> Spring, we know more is going on here (incidentally, this is more of that
> Tree-Neighbor connection that I still don't understand). I do not recall
an
> instance of LS Silk pretending to eat food set before him. He fasts, but
> when there is not a lot of food available anyway, it is easy to be holy in
> that way. Not the same thing as what happens in SS, I think.
>
>
>
>
>
> --Brian Lovely
>
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> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 07:04:11 -0500
> From: "James Wynn" <crushtv at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: (urth) Rajan and Food
> To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net>
> Message-ID: <AC78EFE1A7F440FFB9604C769FE6EB1D at eMachinePC>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> ? ? ? ?reply-type=original
>
>>He's a tree, he's a tree! Neighbors are trees,
>>Inhumi are parasitic vines. ?.or something.
>>Not sure what the Neighbor-version of Inhumi
>>are-maybe the vine with a face that is cut for Incanto's staff.
>
> Brian, let's posit that the Neighbors are dryads--that their steady
physical
> form is one of the "sleepy trees" in the forests of Blue. How do the
inhumi
> make the jump to become vines? Or how do they transform back to
> winged/clawed vampiric reptiles? That is the fundamental problem with any
> "tree/vine theory" regarding the Neighbors and inhumi.
>
> J.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 11:00:10 -0700
> From: Jordon Flato <jordonflato at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: (urth) Rajan and Food
> To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
> Message-ID:
> ? ? ? ?<273409710904281100p29971f87s893b7b7aff2a2e5b at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> I've wondered if the strange creature (not the leatherskin) that jumps on
> the ship with Horn when he first sets out, which is described much like a
> neighbor but faaaar scarier isn't maybe a nieghbor/inhumi remnant. ?That
is
> what occurred to me.
>
> I can't get behind the neighbors as trees/inhumi as vines theory at all.
?It
> seems like such a stretch. ?There is no denying a connection of some sort
> between trees and neighbors. ?I'm not certain it is a literal connection.
> In New Sun, there are instances of Wolfe anthropomorphising trees and
such.
> With human qualities. ?Why wouldn't the same be true on another planet,
but
> echoing the essense of the 'original' inhabitants, the neighbors.
>
> And I think, in terms of the Neighbors infecting the inhumi on the Whorl,
it
> was primarily to get a sense of what the souls of the humans were like.
> When they saw the result, they made their deciscion that they could give
the
> world to Humans, as they had confidence that the humans would have a
chance,
> that the neighbors did not, to end the cycle of inhumi/host extinction,
due
> to the possible quailities of the human soul. “I think, in Horn/Silk in
> particular (keeping in mind that when the neighbors gave Blue to humans
> through Horn, he was still Horn and not Silk at all), they saw something
in
> humanity (in my opinion, not his being a neighbor doppleganger) that
> convinced them that they might be able, at some point, to make a peace
with
> the inhumi. ?They wouldn't have known that if they had not first infected
> the Whorl with inhumi.
>
> What is much more controversial to me is that the neighbors say they also
> spent time on the whorl, and befriended some there. ?What are the
> implications of this” “Who did they befriend” “We have an inhumi character
> in Long Sun. ?Is there a as yet unidentified Neighbor”
>
> On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 5:04 AM, James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> He's a tree, he's a tree! Neighbors are trees,
>>> Inhumi are parasitic vines. ?.or something.
>>> Not sure what the Neighbor-version of Inhumi
>>> are-maybe the vine with a face that is cut for Incanto's staff.
>>>
>>
>> Brian, let's posit that the Neighbors are dryads--that their steady
>> physical form is one of the "sleepy trees" in the forests of Blue. How do
>> the inhumi make the jump to become vines? Or how do they transform back
to
>> winged/clawed vampiric reptiles? That is the fundamental problem with any
>> "tree/vine theory" regarding the Neighbors and inhumi.
>>
>> J.
>> _______________________________________________
>> Urth Mailing List
>> To post, write urth at urth.net
>> Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net
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>
> Message: 4
> Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 11:03:19 -0700
> From: Jordon Flato <jordonflato at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: (urth) Rajan and Food
> To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
> Message-ID:
> ? ? ? ?<273409710904281103v6270d8b2i38ef3f35b0c5ffdb at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>
> Also, it seems like the Neighbors choose to enslave the inhumi, much like
> humans were doing to each other. ?They were wiped out because of it. ?I
see
> no evidence of the neighbors having" rid yourself of them by being so
> passive they’d take on your Christ-like willingness to sacrifice
yourself."
> They failed in that regard spectacularly, apparently. ?However, Silk/Horn
> taking one as a son, and maybe being the first being to actually LOVE
> another inhumi, is the christlike action, that 'changes the rules' as hide
> says at the end of the Whorl.
>
> It is the Love for the inhumi that gives the possibility of their
redemption
> and the ending of the cycle. ?At least it seems so to me.
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------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 18:11:49 -0400
From: "Brian Lovely" <brian at studiobl.com>
Subject: (urth) Rajan and Food
To: <urth at lists.urth.net>
Message-ID: <000c01c9c84e$56304ca0$0290e5e0$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"

Well, whatever the Neighbors are to trees, the Inhumi are to vines.  Maybe
their base form is the slug-like thing that drops out of a tree on green,
kind of an amphibian that lays its eggs in water.  But if there base form is
just a vine, then feeding on something higher pulls them up from vine to
amphibian.  It's all up.  The uncrossed Inhumi are still vines, those who
have managed to move up a level are slugs, those who have fed on humans are
bat-winged devils.

Crossbreeding.  The corn that Horn seeks on the Whorl.  The underwater
greenhouses, the strange doubling of limbs that many creatures on Blue
exhibit.  I read somewhere in the list a theory about polyploidy something
or other--some biology that I don't know anything about--but the upshot was
that you can cross corn in such a way that the genetic pattern is
doubled...something like that.  More to the point, like beasts with eight
legs.  Who was crossbreeding who, and why?  Did the Neighbors have to change
themselves in order to survive?  Were the 8-legged animals experiments, to
perfect the technique?  

Message: 2
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 07:04:11 -0500
From: "James Wynn" <crushtv at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: (urth) Rajan and Food
To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net>
Message-ID: <AC78EFE1A7F440FFB9604C769FE6EB1D at eMachinePC>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	reply-type=original

>He's a tree, he's a tree! Neighbors are trees,
>Inhumi are parasitic vines.  .or something.
>Not sure what the Neighbor-version of Inhumi
>are-maybe the vine with a face that is cut for Incanto's staff.

Brian, let's posit that the Neighbors are dryads--that their steady physical

form is one of the "sleepy trees" in the forests of Blue. How do the inhumi 
make the jump to become vines? Or how do they transform back to 
winged/clawed vampiric reptiles? That is the fundamental problem with any 
"tree/vine theory" regarding the Neighbors and inhumi.

J. 

------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 11:00:10 -0700
From: Jordon Flato <jordonflato at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: (urth) Rajan and Food
To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
Message-ID:
	<273409710904281100p29971f87s893b7b7aff2a2e5b at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

I've wondered if the strange creature (not the leatherskin) that jumps on
the ship with Horn when he first sets out, which is described much like a
neighbor but faaaar scarier isn't maybe a nieghbor/inhumi remnant.  That is
what occurred to me.

I can't get behind the neighbors as trees/inhumi as vines theory at all.  It
seems like such a stretch.  There is no denying a connection of some sort
between trees and neighbors.  I'm not certain it is a literal connection.
In New Sun, there are instances of Wolfe anthropomorphising trees and such.
With human qualities.  Why wouldn't the same be true on another planet, but
echoing the essense of the 'original' inhabitants, the neighbors.

And I think, in terms of the Neighbors infecting the inhumi on the Whorl, it
was primarily to get a sense of what the souls of the humans were like.
When they saw the result, they made their deciscion that they could give the
world to Humans, as they had confidence that the humans would have a chance,
that the neighbors did not, to end the cycle of inhumi/host extinction, due
to the possible quailities of the human soul.  I think, in Horn/Silk in
particular (keeping in mind that when the neighbors gave Blue to humans
through Horn, he was still Horn and not Silk at all), they saw something in
humanity (in my opinion, not his being a neighbor doppleganger) that
convinced them that they might be able, at some point, to make a peace with
the inhumi.  They wouldn't have known that if they had not first infected
the Whorl with inhumi.

What is much more controversial to me is that the neighbors say they also
spent time on the whorl, and befriended some there.  What are the
implications of this?  Who did they befriend?  We have an inhumi character
in Long Sun.  Is there a as yet unidentified Neighbor?

On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 5:04 AM, James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com> wrote:

> He's a tree, he's a tree! Neighbors are trees,
>> Inhumi are parasitic vines.  .or something.
>> Not sure what the Neighbor-version of Inhumi
>> are-maybe the vine with a face that is cut for Incanto's staff.
>>
>
> Brian, let's posit that the Neighbors are dryads--that their steady
> physical form is one of the "sleepy trees" in the forests of Blue. How do
> the inhumi make the jump to become vines? Or how do they transform back to
> winged/clawed vampiric reptiles? That is the fundamental problem with any
> "tree/vine theory" regarding the Neighbors and inhumi.
>
> J.
> _______________________________________________
> Urth Mailing List
> To post, write urth at urth.net
> Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net
>
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Message: 4
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 11:03:19 -0700
From: Jordon Flato <jordonflato at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: (urth) Rajan and Food
To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
Message-ID:
	<273409710904281103v6270d8b2i38ef3f35b0c5ffdb at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"

Also, it seems like the Neighbors choose to enslave the inhumi, much like
humans were doing to each other.  They were wiped out because of it.  I see
no evidence of the neighbors having" rid yourself of them by being so
passive they’d take on your Christ-like willingness to sacrifice yourself."
They failed in that regard spectacularly, apparently.  However, Silk/Horn
taking one as a son, and maybe being the first being to actually LOVE
another inhumi, is the christlike action, that 'changes the rules' as hide
says at the end of the Whorl.

It is the Love for the inhumi that gives the possibility of their redemption
and the ending of the cycle.  At least it seems so to me.
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------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 21:37:32 -0400
From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: (urth) Rajan and Food
To: urth at lists.urth.net
Message-ID: <49F7AF5C.5090707 at verizon.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

I have no idea where it was, but I recall a fairly clear hint dropped that
the inhumi evolved from parasitic vines. There is certainly no evidence that
they are reptilian---merely reptile-like.

And I agree that the Neighbors are somehow tree-related. Wolfe never wastes
a clue, so there must be something to that.

I don't see any problem with transformations from one form to another,
although I wouldn't propose that the inhumi can change into vines and back
any more than humans can change into monkeys and back. But they do have the
capacity to winter underground just like plants.

The inhumi plainly are highly changeable, and do not need to conform to
20th-century notions of what a species is---especially since those notions
are wrong. They change when they feed on sentient life; they change with the
availability of food.

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 07:04:11 -0500
From: "James Wynn" <crushtv at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: (urth) Rajan and Food
To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net>
Message-ID: <AC78EFE1A7F440FFB9604C769FE6EB1D at eMachinePC>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	reply-type=original

> >He's a tree, he's a tree! Neighbors are trees,
> >Inhumi are parasitic vines.  .or something.
> >Not sure what the Neighbor-version of Inhumi
> >are-maybe the vine with a face that is cut for Incanto's staff.
>   

Brian, let's posit that the Neighbors are dryads--that their steady physical

form is one of the "sleepy trees" in the forests of Blue. How do the inhumi 
make the jump to become vines? Or how do they transform back to 
winged/clawed vampiric reptiles? That is the fundamental problem with any 
"tree/vine theory" regarding the Neighbors and inhumi.

J. 

------------------------------

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Message: 4
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 21:51:55 -0500
From: Matthew Groves <matthewalangroves at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: (urth) Rajan and Food
To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
Message-ID:
	<39ed084f0904281951t3d791014v91db6a426f989a85 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

It is equally possible that the inhumi on Green are vine-like, not
because they evolved from vines, but because they feed on the trees on
Green, thus becoming more like them.

------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 20:07:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: (urth) Rajan and Food
To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
Message-ID: <998581.4395.qm at web50702.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

--- On Tue, 4/28/09, Brian Lovely <brian at studiobl.com> wrote:
...

> Crossbreeding.  The corn that Horn seeks on the Whorl.  The
> underwater
> greenhouses, the strange doubling of limbs that many
> creatures on Blue
> exhibit.  I read somewhere in the list a theory about
> polyploidy something
> or other--some biology that I don't know anything
> about--but the upshot was
> that you can cross corn in such a way that the genetic
> pattern is
> doubled...something like that.  More to the point, like
> beasts with eight legs.
...

I hope you read my response, pointing out that polyploid
animals don't have double the usual number of limbs.

http://www.urth.net/urth/archives/v0203/382.txt.shtml

Jerry Friedman

------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 22:40:21 -0500
From: Matthew Groves <matthewalangroves at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: (urth) Rajan and Food
To: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com, The Urth Mailing List
	<urth at lists.urth.net>
Message-ID:
	<39ed084f0904282040y2b0776b1ycba04ed1420a3c2e at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Yeah, for me, the take-away from the argument about corn polyploidy
(or whatever it's called) is not that the Neighbors have double the
normal chromosomes and therefore double the number of arms and legs.
That's silly.  The point (IMO), or the suggestion, is that the corn
hybridization business is, among other things, a *cue* that the
Neighbors are (in some sense I don't quite understand) a hybridized or
somehow immanently corrupted species.  Or maybe they're just fading
away like successive generations of corn crops, and like the enigmatic
ghosts of Mars in Bradbury's Martian Chronicles (not John Carpenter).
And the colonists represent a necessary pure strain for the rebirth of
civilization.  At any rate, I think the case is very strong that Wolfe
is constructing an analogy between the Neighbors and the diminishing
corn crop, and the colonists and the new seeds.  In TBotNS, the
primary decay/rebirth image was seasonal; in TBotSS it's this corn
generation thing.  I believe it's Marc who deserves credit for this
insight.

> I hope you read my response, pointing out that polyploid
> animals don't have double the usual number of limbs.
>
> http://www.urth.net/urth/archives/v0203/382.txt.shtml
>
> Jerry Friedman

------------------------------

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