{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5431", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5431, "subject": "The Devil in a Forest", "messages": 18, "voices": 10, "first": "2009-05-13T19:54:06+00:00", "last": "2009-06-24T23:10:24+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-05-13T19:54:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Devil in a Forest", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Who shot Gloin?\n \n J. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370905131256ia7655deha15f6f2940abe0d7@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-05-13T19:56:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Devil in a Forest", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Legolas, in the library, with the revolver." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 12:54 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nWho shot Gloin?\n\nJ. _______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-05-13T19:59:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Devil in a Forest", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370905131256ia7655deha15f6f2940abe0d7@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Who shot Gloin?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Legolas, in the library, with the revolver." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, it was a hunting bow. Your out of the game.\n:-)\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<738ED65D-6F87-4554-8492-72FDB2B0DA1C@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-05-13T20:23:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Devil in a Forest", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 13, 2009, at 2:54 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nWho shot Gloin?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Grimli.\n\nOh, no, that's *how* shot Gloin.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1C551CD1CE5645E6ABB80379575C1261@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-05-14T15:36:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Devil in a Forest", "in_reply_to": "<738ED65D-6F87-4554-8492-72FDB2B0DA1C@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Am I really the only person on this list who's read this book? Really?\n\nOkay. Here's what it is (not obvious from the summary on the back of the \nbook). It's a re-telling Robin Hood. It's not clear where it is supposed to \noccur. The names are English (or Scandinavian in the case of Gloin), so \ncombined with the Robin Hood connection it's a slam dunk. But the references \nto King Wenceslas in the summary (not the book) suggests it might have been \nintended to take place in the Czech Republic of the 11th century. The \nenormous mountain that plays such a dominant role in the story (requiring \nmore than a day's march to reach the summit) tends to bring to mind the \nPyrenees or the Alps.\n\nThis is not a sci-fi story or a fantasy story. The \"magic\" that takes place \nis of the \"real\", naturalistic sort. Miracles are not ruled out, however. \nThere is a Father Brown-style detective priest.\n\n**SPOILERS TO FOLLOW**\n\n\n\n\n\nI think all the loose ends are wrapped up at the end (but with Wolfe, can \none be sure?) EXCEPT for one of the characters (Gloin) being shot by an \narrow. He was fleeing an attack by soldiers in the woods. The soldier's deny \nhaving shot him (no reason they would lie about it). The arrow was not from \na military cross-bow. So that suggests to me that the arrow was fired from \nWat's bow. But Wat had left his bow at the Inn, and by the end of the story \nit is made clear that Wat could not have reclaimed it until after Gloin was \nshot.\n\nSo who shot him? Joselynn's father? Could he have left his duties at the Inn \nto go with the soldier's to hunt for the refugees? Maybe --if all the \nsoldiers were involved in the search. He might have left with the bow and \nshot Gloin so the soldiers would catch him and let Joselynn escape. Or he \nmight have done it so Joselynn would not be alone with him in the woods. But \nthere's no reference in the book that suggests her father knew how to use a \nbow, and it was a risky shot considering how close Gloin and Joselynn \nprobably were to each other. Anyway, he seems like the ONLY viable choice, \nbut he's still an unacceptable one in my mind (something that happens a lot \nwhen I read Wolfe).\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<20090514165706.C1E9848008@diego.dreamhost.com>", "from": { "name": "Mo Holkar / UKG", "address": "lists at ukg.co.uk" }, "date": "2009-05-14T16:57:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Devil in a Forest", "in_reply_to": "<1C551CD1CE5645E6ABB80379575C1261@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 16:36 14/05/2009, J. wrote:\nAm I really the only person on this list who's read this book? Really?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have read it -- but a long time ago (like 20 years or more), so I \ndon't remember the details of plot. I am hoping that someone else \nwill pick this up with you though!\n\nbest wishes,\n\nMo\n\n\n# ~ # ~ #\n\nWolfeWiki -- a wiki about Gene Wolfe\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/ " } ] }, { "message_id": "<452639.10540.qm@web180208.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "John Smith", "address": "jsmith2627 at att.net" }, "date": "2009-05-14T20:10:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Devil in a Forest", "in_reply_to": "<1C551CD1CE5645E6ABB80379575C1261@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've read The Devil in the Forest and I liked it. It is good fantasy. It's been many years since I read it, but some images stick with me. For instance, the witch who tells fortunes by throwing \"the thigh bones of men.\"\n\nBest wishes,\n\nJack" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Thu, 5/14/09, James Wynn wrote:\nFrom: James Wynn \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Devil in a Forest\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Thursday, May 14, 2009, 11:36 AM\nAm I really the only person on this list who's read this\nbook? Really?\n\nOkay. Here's what it is (not obvious from the summary\non the back of the book). It's a re-telling Robin Hood.\nIt's not clear where it is supposed to occur. The names\nare English (or Scandinavian in the case of Gloin), so\ncombined with the Robin Hood connection it's a slam\ndunk. But the references to King Wenceslas in the summary\n(not the book) suggests it might have been intended to take\nplace in the Czech Republic of the 11th century. The\nenormous mountain that plays such a dominant role in the\nstory (requiring more than a day's march to reach the\nsummit) tends to bring to mind the Pyrenees or the Alps.\n\nThis is not a sci-fi story or a fantasy story. The\n\"magic\" that takes place is of the\n\"real\", naturalistic sort. Miracles are not ruled\nout, however. There is a Father Brown-style detective\npriest.\n\n**SPOILERS TO FOLLOW**\n\n\n\n\n\nI think all the loose ends are wrapped up at the end (but\nwith Wolfe, can one be sure?) EXCEPT for one of the\ncharacters (Gloin) being shot by an arrow. He was fleeing an\nattack by soldiers in the woods. The soldier's deny\nhaving shot him (no reason they would lie about it). The\narrow was not from a military cross-bow. So that suggests to\nme that the arrow was fired from Wat's bow. But Wat had\nleft his bow at the Inn, and by the end of the story it is\nmade clear that Wat could not have reclaimed it until after\nGloin was shot.\n\nSo who shot him? Joselynn's father? Could he have left\nhis duties at the Inn to go with the soldier's to hunt\nfor the refugees? Maybe --if all the soldiers were involved\nin the search. He might have left with the bow and shot\nGloin so the soldiers would catch him and let Joselynn\nescape. Or he might have done it so Joselynn would not be\nalone with him in the woods. But there's no reference in\nthe book that suggests her father knew how to use a bow, and\nit was a risky shot considering how close Gloin and Joselynn\nprobably were to each other. Anyway, he seems like the ONLY\nviable choice, but he's still an unacceptable one in my\nmind (something that happens a lot when I read Wolfe).\n\nJ. \n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<351BCB35AC7C4E7A8F67452FE6FA8D38@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-05-14T20:25:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Devil in a Forest", "in_reply_to": "<452639.10540.qm@web180208.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I've read The Devil in the Forest and I liked it.\nIt is good fantasy. It's been many years since I read it,\nbut some images stick with me.\nFor instance, the witch who tells fortunes by throwing\n\"the thigh bones of men.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It might have got by you at the time but Mother Cloot actually says:\n\"Thigh bones of men. [...] Tell a lie and be a lawyer--tell the truth and be \na trull. Murdered by me and their mothers, Mark; and every one is a left \nthigh bone.\"\n\nSo she claims she collected the left thigh bones of male fetuses she had \naborted for fortune-telling. Of course, every verifiable statement she says \nis a lie so, who knows?\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<329138.22934.qm@web32402.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-05-15T07:05:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Devil in a Forest", "in_reply_to": "<351BCB35AC7C4E7A8F67452FE6FA8D38@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sorry James, I've read The Devil in a Forest, but I was pretty underwhelmed by it, so I never dug very deep. \n\nDon\nDoggerel\nwww.don-doggett.blogspot.com" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Thu, 5/14/09, Mo Holkar / UKG wrote:\nFrom: Mo Holkar / UKG \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Devil in a Forest\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Thursday, May 14, 2009, 9:57 AM\nAt 16:36 14/05/2009, J. wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Am I really the only person on this list who's read\nthis book? Really?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have read it -- but a long time ago (like 20 years or\nmore), so I don't remember the details of plot. I am hoping\nthat someone else will pick this up with you though!\n\nbest wishes,\n\nMo\n\n\n# ~ # ~ #\n\nWolfeWiki -- a wiki about Gene Wolfe\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/ \n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<507869.12539.qm@web32404.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-05-15T07:05:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Devil in a Forest", "in_reply_to": "<329138.22934.qm@web32402.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sorry James, I've read The Devil in a Forest, but I was pretty underwhelmed by it, so I never dug very deep. \n\nDon\nDoggerel\nwww.don-doggett.blogspot.com" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Thu, 5/14/09, Mo Holkar / UKG wrote:\nFrom: Mo Holkar / UKG \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Devil in a Forest\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Thursday, May 14, 2009, 9:57 AM\nAt 16:36 14/05/2009, J. wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Am I really the only person on this list who's read\nthis book? Really?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have read it -- but a long time ago (like 20 years or\nmore), so I don't remember the details of plot. I am hoping\nthat someone else will pick this up with you though!\n\nbest wishes,\n\nMo\n\n\n# ~ # ~ #\n\nWolfeWiki -- a wiki about Gene Wolfe\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/ \n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3729BE89-1920-4D3A-8BBB-E31679D114C8@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Transentient", "address": "transentient at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-05-15T12:33:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Devil in a Forest", "in_reply_to": "<1C551CD1CE5645E6ABB80379575C1261@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 14, 2009, at 11:36 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nAm I really the only person on this list who's read this book? Really?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I read it a couple years ago and really enjoyed it, but I don't recall \nwhat, if any, resolution I arrived at for who shot Gloin.\n\nIs it completely impossible that Mark actually shot Gloin?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<26082D4CA6CD4E83A88223747DCF7E57@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-05-15T13:31:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Devil in a Forest", "in_reply_to": "<3729BE89-1920-4D3A-8BBB-E31679D114C8@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Don Doggett:\nSorry James, I've read The Devil in a Forest,\nbut I was pretty underwhelmed by it, so I never dug very deep." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Look, this is no great work, but it is a very \"well-constructed\" work; to a \ndegree that it's worth examining for that reason alone. Most people are \nunaware of the story of the evil abbess who poisons, blinds, and kills Robin \nHood. Wolfe has combined the abbess, Baba Yaga, and Hansel & Gretel's witch \ninto a single character.\n\nThe story has lots of interesting, filled-out characters. The abbe' is an \nearly Silk as well as a kind of Friar Tuck.\n\nThematically Wat/Robin Hood is an interesting exemplar of the corrupting \nnature of socialism while the Ganelon/Sherriff of Nottingham is an exemplar \nof the ambiguous but cruel nature of big, bureaucratic government.\n\nI've read much worse novels, even by Wolfe." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Transentient:\nIs it completely impossible that Mark actually shot Gloin?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, I think it is. Mark came straight from the woods with Wat (after Wat \nstabbed him) to the hideout with the refugees. If we assume the deed was \ndone with Wat's bow then there was no opportunity to retrieve it. The deed \nwas not done with a military bow, anyway. Also tDiaF has a third person \nnarrator that speaks from Mark's POV.\n\nSo I don't think he could do something without us knowing it, unless...\n...unless Mother Cloot mixed up some of that special potion that she gave \nWat to make him Ganelon (or the other way around). But , it's still unlikely \nthat Mark shot Gloin I think. He was over-taken by the soldiers.\nNor could he have killed the sexton, for that matter, despite what Mother \nCloot said. It must have been the charcoal burner. But what was his motive? \nI bet there are some hints if I read some of the Robin Hood versions.\n\nHmmm...I suppose it's possible that Mother Cloot carried Wat's bow to him in \nthe forest, but that would undermine Mark's reasoning for concluding that \nWat was Ganelon. Still it's not unheard of in a Wolfe novel for people to \ncome to the right conclusion for the wrong reason.\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4A0EBBE7.5030109@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-05-16T13:13:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Devil in a Forest", "in_reply_to": "<26082D4CA6CD4E83A88223747DCF7E57@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't recall the novel well, but I'm skeptical that one can so confidently read direct criticism of socialism and bureaucratic government in it. They are modern ideas that may be roughly linked but can't actually be represented in this milieu. Naturally Wolfe doesn't like them, because they are inferior to the rule of a good king. So I'd like to see more citations specifically supporting that theory. Unless, of course, you meant it only in a general or indirect sense.\n\nFirst of all, by the time you've equated socialism with \"robbing from the rich and giving to the poor,\" you've already hanged socialism without a trial, because that means you don't know what it is. Though I will grant that it is commonly understood in that way in the US, and that the requirement of ignorance does not rule out Wolfe's understanding it that way too.\n\nSecond, in what way does a feudal figure resemble modern big government? Again, punitive overtaxing---a practice that was perfected by the Medicis, not by the IRS, by any stretch---and being corrupt and evil bears no particular relation to big government as we know it. Rather, it's business as usual for imperial/authoritarian orders of the kind our big government replaced. \n\nIf anything, the story sets---if I can again put it in the terms of past debates---'good' king vs 'bad' king. Bad kings tax and kill freely and destroy all that is not theirs; good kings try to improve things but also tax and kill with restraint. Nobility should behave in a certain way, according to a code, as a knight. Neither the sheriff nor Wat is a nobleman, and thus cannot be either. Clearly Wat is misguided, but it wouldn't be the first time a Wolfe protagonist is misguided." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Fri, 15 May 2009 08:31:57 -0500\nFrom: \"James Wynn\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Devil in a Forest\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: <26082D4CA6CD4E83A88223747DCF7E57 at eMachinePC>\nContent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=\"iso-8859-1\";\n\treply-type=response" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Don Doggett:\nSorry James, I've read The Devil in a Forest," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \nbut I was pretty underwhelmed by it, so I never dug very deep.\n\nLook, this is no great work, but it is a very \"well-constructed\" work; to a \ndegree that it's worth examining for that reason alone. Most people are \nunaware of the story of the evil abbess who poisons, blinds, and kills Robin \nHood. Wolfe has combined the abbess, Baba Yaga, and Hansel & Gretel's witch \ninto a single character.\n\nThe story has lots of interesting, filled-out characters. The abbe' is an \nearly Silk as well as a kind of Friar Tuck.\n\nThematically Wat/Robin Hood is an interesting exemplar of the corrupting \nnature of socialism while the Ganelon/Sherriff of Nottingham is an exemplar \nof the ambiguous but cruel nature of big, bureaucratic government.\n\nI've read much worse novels, even by Wolfe." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-05-16T19:58:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Devil in a Forest", "in_reply_to": "<4A0EBBE7.5030109@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff said: I don't recall the novel well, but I'm skeptical that \none\ncan so confidently read direct criticism of socialism and bureaucratic\ngovernment in it. So I'd like to see more citations specifically supporting\nthat theory. Unless, of course, you meant it only in a general or indirect \nsense." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I do think it's done in a more indirect sense. This novel is \"about\" many \nthings, but the shadow of economic/social commentary lies long and dark over \nit. Wolfe starts with a hero of folklore known for \"robbing the rich to give \nto the poor\". But he starts the story from the perspective of \"the rich\". \nFor starters, we get an old peddler, who is also a very clever salesman that \nmanages to get housewives to spend more than they planned to. Wat shoots him \ndead with an arrow and robs him. Later he justifies it (he quite good a \njustifying everything he does) saying:\n\n\"I put my second-best shaft in his neck. I don't like the breed--nasty, \nwhining creatures that cry and say you're taking their last farthing when \nthey've half a dozen of gold in one shoe and a thousand more, like as not, \nin the mattress at home.\"\n\nThen we meet the Villagers--the rest of \"the rich\"--all of whom are \ntradesmen. They start with a plan to form a private militia to root out Wat, \nbut Wat is a clever corrupter. Before things get far along, he has convinced \na sizable chunk of the tradesmen to join him in a plot to rob a nobleman \n(someone who is rich from the tradesmen's POV). But, actually, no nobleman \nwill ever get skinned because Wat's real plan is to rob one of the \ntradesmen.\n\nOnly after we meet the rich, are we introduced to \"the poor\". The Poor are \nthe charcoal burners in the forest. Wat's relationship with them is to buy \nthem off. There is no time in the story when Wat's relationship with them is \nchummier than that. They can't go to the authorities even if they were \ninclined to because their own livelihood is technically illegal. But Wat \nknows that they might turn him in for a reward so he is never among them in \ntrust.\n\nThere are no speeches about liberty or the rights of property, but Wolfe \neffectively demolishes the whole philosophical structure of forcibly taking \nfrom \"the rich\" for purposes of benevolence. It simply does not happen \nhere." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...in what way does a feudal figure resemble modern big government?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If this isn't a fable about the foolishness of depending on the beneficence \nof the government, I can't imagine what would be. In order to protect \nthemselves from thievery, members of the village seek the help of the \ngovernment. But once they have let the camel's nose under the tent, they \nfind that people actually performing those duties are not interested in \n\"rescuing\" them, but in following the letter of the law as it has been \ndefined to them, and feathering their own well-being as much as they're \npermitted within the strict definition of their duties. In short, the Law \n(the government from the POV of the villagers), is a bigger marauder than \nWat. They treat all the villagers as a potential law-breakers, and in deed \nPhilip the Cobbler and Gloin the Weaver are defined technically as \"Wat's \nmen\" even though they never robbed anyone, even though there was never \nanyone to rob." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If anything, the story sets---if I can again put\nit in the terms of past debates---'good' king vs 'bad' king. Bad kings tax \nand kill freely and destroy all that is not theirs; good kings try to \nimprove things but also tax and kill with\nrestraint. Nobility should behave in a certain way, according\nto a code, as a knight. Neither the sheriff nor Wat is a nobleman,\nand thus cannot be either. Clearly Wat is misguided, but it\nwouldn't be the first time a Wolfe protagonist is misguided." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wat is not presented as \"misguided\". He's a ruthless murderer and thief, and \nas clever a corrupter of those around him as the Devil himself. He's also \nnot in his right mind. He's totally controlled by Mother Cloot.\n\nThere is no \"good king\" and no \"bad king\" in this story. Wat is both the \nhighwayman AND the sheriff (there's a metaphor for you). There is a king at \nthe end who provides information to tie up lose ends, but he doesn't punish \nthe soldiers for what they did to Mark's village as a \"good king\" would. He \ndoesn't attempt to arrive at a higher justice for Phillip and Gloin. Mark \ntells the king that the soldier's promised to release them if he led them to \nWat, and the king just waved it away. The abbe' tells Mark they are sure to \nbe hanged in a very short time. Nor is the king presented as a ravager. He's \njust an amiable old guy. It's not clear what he would have done if he'd \nknown how often Mark went willingly through the forest with Wat." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "First of all, by the time you've equated socialism with \"robbing\nfrom the rich and giving to the poor,\" you've already hanged\nsocialism without a trial, because that means you don't know\nwhat it is. Though I will grant that it is commonly understood\nin that way in the US, and that the requirement of ignorance\ndoes not rule out Wolfe's understanding it that way too." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I suspect Wolfe does not believe socialism deserves a trial. The reason \nsocialism is understood \"as robbing from the rich to give to the poor\" in \nthe US is because the country was founded on the ideals of private property. \nExcepting slavery and the treatment of the Indians, there was never a time \nof clearly defined \"class\" -- of a \"place\" in society that one is expected \nto know. Actually, \"rob from the rich\" is a nicer way to put it than Kipling \ndid: \"They promised abundance for all/By robbing proverbial Peter to pay \nproverbial Paul\". In order to get from here to there (socialism/welfare \nstate), the advocates of the shift have always framed it as taking from \nthose who \"don't need it\" in order to fund \"the community\".\n\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "mfstraight at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-06-23T05:25:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Devil in a Forest", "in_reply_to": "<1C551CD1CE5645E6ABB80379575C1261@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 9:36 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nAm I really the only person on this list who's read this book? Really?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hey James! I like this book quite a lot.\n\nAs I said a while ago on this list, the thing that sticks with me most is\nthe way Wat manipulates the villagers, dividing them into smaller and\nsmaller factions, promising them less and less for deeds that are more and\nmore evil. I think Wolfe is more interested in that sort of exploration of\nthe nature of evil than he is in making some sort of political statement.\n\nLike in the Soldier books, Wolfe has these little details that really make\nme feel like I'm getting a ground-view glimpse of medieval peasant life that\nI don't get from a lot of fantasy. Little things like Mark brushing his\nteeth with a twig.\n\nRostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8646.67.142.130.35.1245746275.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-06-23T08:37:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Devil in a Forest", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 9:36 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Am I really the only person on this list who's read this book? Really?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hey James! I like this book quite a lot.\n\nAs I said a while ago on this list, the thing that sticks with me most is\nthe way Wat manipulates the villagers, dividing them into smaller and\nsmaller factions, promising them less and less for deeds that are more and\nmore evil. I think Wolfe is more interested in that sort of exploration\nof the nature of evil than he is in making some sort of political\nstatement." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As interested.\n\nIt's a floor wax AND a dessert topping.\n\nI really like TDiaF also.\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<2861F4433E7942CA9F52E8405821F12B@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-06-24T22:48:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Devil in a Forest", "in_reply_to": "<8646.67.142.130.35.1245746275.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Michael Straight:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think Wolfe is more interested in that sort of exploration\nof the nature of evil than he is in making some sort of political\nstatement." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Josh:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As interested. It's a floor wax AND a dessert topping. I really like TDiaF \nalso." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's pretty funny, Josh.\n\nI didn't expect to like it as much as I did. I was expecting something along \nthe level of \"Pandora\" quality. When I finished it, I considered it solid \npiece, but nothing of much depth. But as I discussed it, I began to \nappreciate it much more. The characters are iconic with each having his own \n\"space\". Very Dickensian. And as I said, it would be thick-headed to say the \nnovel is \"about\" this or that. Part of my low(er) opinion of it was that I \ndidn't think the political angle was very subtle at all. After talking to \npeople about it, I came to the opposite conclusion. Yeah, it's about the \ncorrupting power of greed and the human susceptibility to venality. But \nthose evils are dressed in the idea of \"robbing from the rich to give to the \npoor\". And re-distribution of wealth is a major political issue. You can't \nreally escape that theme in an homage to the Robin Hood story (which this \nis, and a quite deft one). The sad thing is that I'm probably spoiling the \nnovel for some people, at least, by pointing out that there *is* a political \nstatement in there. Fortunately, there seems to be more than enough \ndeniability in the work for readers to ignore me as a crank and enjoy the \nnovel for all its other attributes.\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<8945.72.171.0.140.1245885024.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-06-24T23:10:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Devil in a Forest", "in_reply_to": "<2861F4433E7942CA9F52E8405821F12B@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The sad thing is that I'm probably spoiling the\nnovel for some people, at least, by pointing out that there *is* a\npolitical statement in there. Fortunately, there seems to be more than\nenough deniability in the work for readers to ignore me as a crank and\nenjoy the novel for all its other attributes." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gene Wolfe is not just a good propagandist, he is one of the best that I\nhave ever seen. If you are likely to be hostile to his agenda, chances are\nyou just won't get it, and will recommend the story to friends of yours,\nwho might not be hostile to his agenda.\n\n\n\n\n\n." } ] } ] }