{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5433", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5433, "subject": "Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 16", "messages": 133, "voices": 18, "first": "2009-05-18T21:29:58+00:00", "last": "2009-05-22T11:49:46+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<4A11D356.1080203@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-05-18T21:29:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 16", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's no question that Robin Hood is a symbol, although usually satirical, of the redistribution of wealth at gun or swordpoint. Wat is that too and, necessarily, a demagogue---which is to say a psychopath, as far as I'm concerned.\n\nI'm not saying you don't have something here, and I'm nearing the limit of what my memory will support in terms of offering alternatives. But I think your \"fair analogy of socialism/welfare state\" is more like a \"fair parody of socialism/welfare state.\" Which is fine. But what seems more to the point---and you address it almost directly---is this:\n\n\nBut since that neighbor will never realize it is THEY who robbed him, they needn't be ashamed of the act. \n\n\nBecause the transaction is impersonal, not face to face, and formed on the group rather than the individual level, it instantly lends itself to corruption. Look how easy it is for Wat to manipulate the villagers. THAT'S the political (and psychosocial) point Wolfe is making, I think. Any system that is not based on individual contract is to some degree corrupt.\n\nAnd finally, I agree with your quoted description of socialism. But it clearly has nothing to do with robbing anyone. Governments redistribute wealth all the time. Did you know that usury, which has been illegal since the Byzantine emperors, is now legal in the US? It's called \"payday loans.\" They are illegal for a reason---and the government that can create them and make them legal, thus imposing and enforcing them on the poor, can reverse that to create a more just system. Incrementally speaking, that's socialism." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "----------------------------------------------------------------------\n\nMessage: 1\nDate: Mon, 18 May 2009 04:34:28 -0500\nFrom: James Wynn \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Devil in a Forest\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID:\n\t\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I said:\nThis novel is \"about\" many\nthings, but the shadow of economic/social commentary lies long and dark\nover it. Wolfe starts with a hero of folklore known for \"robbing the rich to give\nto the poor\". But he starts the story from the perspective of \"the rich\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Sackhoff:\nMy only objection is that there doesn't seem to be any\nphilosophical structure to Wat's thieving. He's a psychopath." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n\nHe's unwittingly controlled by evil Mother Cloot, but he's not a\npsychopath. He's a demagogue. He cleverly pits one group against\nanother to enrich himself and to undermine any coalition against him.\n\nHow does he live safely in the woods as a thief? He pays out a portion\nof his robberies from \"the rich\" (peddlers, tradesmen, and pilgrims)\nto \"the poor\" (the charcoal burners and such who live in the forest).\nWhen it seems that the villagers will unite against him, he approaches\nthem and announces that it is not necessary for them to go to the\ntrouble of forming a private militia. He has decided to leave their\nforest to rob other places. But, oh wait, he's going to need \"a stake\"\nin order to leave, and so that means a small robbery of some pilgrim\nthe villagers don't know who his richer than themselves. Why would\nthey agree to this? Because he's going to give them a cut of the\nrobbery. They don't even have to do more than stand there while he\ndoes the work. Not everyone is willing to accept this corrupt bargain,\nbut enough are that the coalition against him is destroyed. But as\nsoon as everyone has signed on, Wat tells them that there is no\npilgrim after all. His plan is to rob one of the villagers--in fact,\none of those who signed on to the robbery. But since that neighbor\nwill never realize it is THEY who robbed him, they needn't be ashamed\nof the act. And the neighbors fall in.\n\nWhether or nor not you agree with the analogy, tDiaF is --I contend--\nintended as a demonstration of how social welfare is sold to the\npublic. The argument is that if your neighbor came to your door and\nsaid \"I need a retirement or guaranteed health care or financial\nsupport when I'm not making enough. So I've decided that you and some\nother neighbors will pay me a monthly stipend.\" You'd throw the guy\nout. If he came said, \"I need these things and you might too; so we're\ngoing to go to the better off neighborhood and demand they pay into a\nkitty to support us\", you'd consider it dishonorable to join in a plan\nlike that. But when some third party says \"I'm going to take from your\nneighbor to supply this kitty, and you'll never have to demand it from\nthem and you'll never have to face them. You don't even have to *do*\nanything. All you have to do is support me in the privacy of your\nvoting booth. And, after all, you know they can afford it\"; in that\ncase, enough people can be convinced to throw in with the plan. But\nmany of the people who think it is someone else getting taken are\nactually the victims. Just as Wat admitted privately that there were\nnot enough pilgrims and they would never be stupid enough to carry\nlarge sums through his forest, (the argument goes) there are not\nenough \"rich\" to make a viable social plan that is worth putting\ntogether in the first place.\n\nYou don't think this is a fair analogy of socialism/welfare state.\nOkay. Your disagreement is within the debate between\nlibertarian/liberal economics and socialist economics over the last\ncentury and a half (see my final response below). The point is that\nWolfe does, and has attempted to illustrate it in tDiaF. The bare\nmajority of Americans who (directly) pay any federal income taxes at\nall today is the sort of arrangement that Wolfe is warning about here.\nIt's an ingenious little fable. Is it propaganda? Sure. Propaganda can\nbe well done. It can even be on the right side. I noted on this list\nnot so long ago that I considered \"Pan's Labyrinth\" to be the best\npropaganda I'd seen in years (in that case for the Spanish Socialist\nParty of which I am no fan)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I said:\nIf this isn't a fable about the foolishness of depending on the beneficence" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "of ?the government, I can't imagine what would be." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David says:\nHere, \"government\" = the people hired by the noblemen to keep order.\nNo more. I don't see any pretense of benevolence." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n\nHow does the government know that Wat is roving in the forest? Because\nthe villagers have complained. Why does the government take the\ntrouble and risk of rooting him out? Public beneficience (which is\nmore extensive than public benevolence). It is Wat, not the soldiers,\nthat is analogy of public \"benevolence\". It is a canny distinction on\nWolfe's part to divide the activity of Wat from the activity of\nGanelon while making them the same person." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Sackhoff said:\nFirst of all, by the time you've equated socialism with\n\"robbing from the rich and giving to the poor,\" you've already hanged\nsocialism without a trial, because that means you don't know what it is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "All of which is perfectly correct but has little to do with actual socialism\nand more to do with paranoid Randian fantasies of it. In short, a straw man." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n\nI appreciate that you don't approve of characterizing socialism as\n\"robbing from the rich to give to the poor\". I confess I'm not\nconversant with the various denominations of socialism. I offer the\nWikipedia definition as currency:\n\n\"Socialists mainly share the belief that capitalism unfairly\nconcentrates power and wealth among a small segment of society that\ncontrols capital, creates an unequal society, and does not provide\nequal opportunities for everyone in society. Therefore socialists\nadvocate the creation of a society in which wealth and power are\ndistributed more evenly based on the amount of work expended in\nproduction, although there is considerable disagreement among\nsocialists over how and to what extent this could be achieved.\"\n\nIn the movie \"Time Bandits\", Terry Gilliam (no laizzes faire\ncapitalist) has Robin Hood say, \"Won't you stay and help us with our\nwork? There's so much wealth to redistribute.\" So I don't think I (or\nWolfe) have made a weird conclusive leap in associating Robin Hood\nwith socialism.\n\nJ.\n\n\n------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1550.67.142.130.49.1242682878.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-05-18T21:41:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 16", "in_reply_to": "<4A11D356.1080203@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And finally, I agree with your quoted description of socialism. But it\nclearly has nothing to do with robbing anyone." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "?\n\nObtaining money by threat of violence is not robbery?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Governments redistribute\nwealth all the time." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And this wealth is obtained by armed robbery. What is a better word for\nit? Extortion, perhaps. We can call it extortion if you prefer.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370905181457x7b1dec3dj5388ae086ebf9df6@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-05-18T21:57:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 16", "in_reply_to": "<1550.67.142.130.49.1242682878.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Josh,\n\nSome of us call it \"playing by the rules of the game.\" Money as such\n(that is a standardized and common currency) is a creation of a\ngovernment and as such subject to rules set by that government.\nAttempts to pretend otherwise are the economic equivalent of\nsolipsism.\n\n--Dan'l" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 2:41 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And finally, I agree with your quoted description of socialism. But it\nclearly has nothing to do with robbing anyone." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "?\n\nObtaining money by threat of violence is not robbery?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Governments redistribute\nwealth all the time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And this wealth is obtained by armed robbery. What is a better word for\nit? Extortion, perhaps. We can call it extortion if you prefer.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<200905181805.22952.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "from": { "name": "Daniel D Jones", "address": "ddjones at riddlemaster.org" }, "date": "2009-05-18T22:05:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 16", "in_reply_to": "<4A11D356.1080203@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Monday 18 May 2009 17:29:58 David Stockhoff wrote:\nAnd finally, I agree with your quoted description of socialism. But it\nclearly has nothing to do with robbing anyone. Governments redistribute\nwealth all the time." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Do you think that because it's done under the blessing of governmental \nauthority it's any less a taking by force than were it the act of a \nhighwayman? And the assertion that \"it's done all the time\" is quite \northogonal to the issue of whether or not it's justified." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Did you know that usury, which has been illegal since\nthe Byzantine emperors, is now legal in the US? It's called \"payday loans.\"\nThey are illegal for a reason---and the government that can create them and\nmake them legal, thus imposing and enforcing them on the poor, can reverse\nthat to create a more just system. Incrementally speaking, that's\nsocialism." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What sort of doublespeak is this? In what way did the government create them? \nIn what way is the government imposing or enforcing them on the poor? Are \nthere government agents going out into neighborhoods forcing people to take \npayday loans? " } ] }, { "message_id": "<5899990178F74F96B5591E3C25EA8D3B@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-05-18T22:10:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Devil in a Forest", "in_reply_to": "<4A11D356.1080203@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Sackhoff said:\nAnd finally, I agree with your quoted description of socialism.\nBut it clearly has nothing to do with robbing anyone. Governments \nredistribute wealth all the time." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is answer that socialist economics gives to libertarian/liberal \neconomics. The libertarian/liberal position is that governments do all sorts \nof things that are not ethical. Spain lawfully nationalized and \nredistributed all the property of Jews at one point. It doesn't make it \nethical or just. The L/L position is that if an unrecompensed transfer of \nproperty is not right on a personal level, then it is not laundered because \nthree out of five people voted that the fifth person had more than he \nneeded.\n\nWolfe is making the L/L argument.\n\nI'm grateful for this discussion, because when I read tDiaF I thought it was \njust a quaint, but obvious, morality tale. Now, I realize that it isn't so \n\"on the nose\" at all. It's actually a quite exquisite bit of propaganda \n(unlike say \"Atlas Shrugged\"). Truly masterful propaganda is one where the \naudience doesn't realize it's being propagandized.\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<20090518231746.SZHY5257.eastrmmtao101.cox.net@eastrmimpo03.cox.net>", "from": { "name": "James B. Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2009-05-18T23:17:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Devil in a Forest", "in_reply_to": "<5899990178F74F96B5591E3C25EA8D3B@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 05:10 PM 5/18/2009, you wrote:\nI'm grateful for this discussion, because when I read tDiaF I \nthought it was just a quaint, but obvious, morality tale. Now, I \nrealize that it isn't so \"on the nose\" at all. It's actually a quite \nexquisite bit of propaganda (unlike say \"Atlas Shrugged\"). Truly \nmasterful propaganda is one where the audience doesn't realize it's \nbeing propagandized." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Propaganda\" may be just the right term for Wolfe. Originally it was \na term used by the Vatican for the propagation of the faith. It's \ncome to have a cheaper meaning. But tDiaF ends with a miracle -- the \nonly \"fantasy\" element in the book, and something Wolfe would claim \nis not \"fantasy\" at all -- and is designed to set out a Christian worldview.\n\nNutria" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "J.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<810920FA-1817-4E6B-A1C0-AA146564C015@comcast.net>", "from": { "name": "Steven", "address": "mcquaryq at comcast.net" }, "date": "2009-05-19T01:19:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 16", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370905181457x7b1dec3dj5388ae086ebf9df6@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 18, 2009, at 5:57 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nSome of us call it \"playing by the rules of the game.\" Money as such\n(that is a standardized and common currency) is a creation of a\ngovernment and as such subject to rules set by that government.\nAttempts to pretend otherwise are the economic equivalent of\nsolipsism." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I try to stay out of these debates and just listen because I learn a \nlot about Wolfean literature here. Really. But the idea that money \nis a governmental creation is a serious misapprehension. Money is a \nstore of value. A symbolic representation, yes, but one fashioned by \nhuman intercourse, not by fiat. The devaluation of a currency is a \ngov't function and has been repeatedly witnessed as such through \nhistory but it's an illusion that money is subject to rules set by \ngov'ts. If it were then devaluations would never occur because a \ngov't could simply outlaw the problem.\n\nSteve-- I read DinaF a long time ago and recall that it was marketed \nas a juvenile read - true or no?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Steven", "address": "mcquaryq at comcast.net" }, "date": "2009-05-19T01:27:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 16", "in_reply_to": "<200905181805.22952.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On May 18, 2009, at 6:05 PM, Daniel D Jones wrote:\nDid you know that usury, which has been illegal since\nthe Byzantine emperors, is now legal in the US?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Still illegal in the Muslim world, that bastion of social \nequity...but more commonly called 'interest' in these parts, not \n'payday loans'. Now legal? Wha?\n\n\n\nSteven" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2061.72.171.0.145.1242696774.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-05-19T01:32:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 16", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370905181457x7b1dec3dj5388ae086ebf9df6@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This does not change the nature of the interaction, Dan'l. I do understand\nwhy one would want to deny the reality of the thing, of course.\n\nGovernment is force. It is a dangerous servant and a fierce master.\n\n-- George Washington\n\nPolitical power comes out of the barrel of a gun.\n\n-- Mao Zedong\n\nGovernment is the monopoly on legitimate violence.\n\n-- Josh Geller\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Some of us call it \"playing by the rules of the game.\" Money as such\n(that is a standardized and common currency) is a creation of a\ngovernment and as such subject to rules set by that government.\nAttempts to pretend otherwise are the economic equivalent of\nsolipsism.\n\n--Dan'l\n\nOn Mon, May 18, 2009 at 2:41 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "And finally, I agree with your quoted description of socialism. But it\nclearly has nothing to do with robbing anyone." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "?\n\nObtaining money by threat of violence is not robbery?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Governments\nredistribute\nwealth all the time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And this wealth is obtained by armed robbery. What is a better word for\nit? Extortion, perhaps. We can call it extortion if you prefer.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<13414.72.171.0.145.1242697130.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-05-19T01:38:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Devil in a Forest", "in_reply_to": "<5899990178F74F96B5591E3C25EA8D3B@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm grateful for this discussion, because when I read tDiaF I thought it\nwas just a quaint, but obvious, morality tale. Now, I realize that it isn't\nso \"on the nose\" at all. It's actually a quite exquisite bit of propaganda\n(unlike say \"Atlas Shrugged\"). Truly masterful propaganda is one where the\naudience doesn't realize it's being propagandized." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Really good propaganda will have people denying that it is propaganda.\n\nI find it very interesting that many of the people who disagree with\nWolfe's politics argue that it is not there. Socialism is, when it comes\ndown to it, a process of pretending that the World is different from the\nway it actually is.\n\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<322A6386203C478F871C5C0BEAD76770@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-05-19T03:41:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Devil in a Forest", "in_reply_to": "<20090518231746.SZHY5257.eastrmmtao101.cox.net@eastrmimpo03.cox.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Propaganda\" may be just the right term for Wolfe.\nOriginally it was a term used by the Vatican for the\npropagation of the faith. It's come to have a cheaper meaning." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I use the term \"propaganda\" to mean \"the attempt to persuade at the \nnon-rational level\". It has a bad rap because it is typically so inartfully \ndone. The idea is to have the audience only stew in the well-seasoned juices \nof the argument so they rationally convince themselves at a later time. You \nhave to _demonstrate_ while exhibiting the self-control never _to tell_. \n\"The Devil in a Forest\" does that. If the work is essentially framed in a \n\"message\", rather than metaphor, the audience is forced to approach the \npropaganda on a rational level and it loses its much of its power. For \nexample, Woody Guthrie's \"This Land is Your Land\" is fantastic Communist \npropaganda (if you know all the verses). Pete Seeger's stuff is \nhack-work--if he had a hammer, he'd hit you over the head with it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...tDiaF ends with a miracle -- the only \"fantasy\" element in the book..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I even wonder whether it *is* the only fantasy element. There are subtle \nhints that the stories of Mother Cloot being able to fly might not be mere \nsuperstition at all. And at least twice it is noted that she *is* \nunexpectedly light. It is a tip to the hat that Evil is also not merely a \nfantasy element. Still, certainly the only _overtly_ non-rational event is \nthe abbe's healing.\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2009-05-19T04:52:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Devil in a Forest", "in_reply_to": "<5899990178F74F96B5591E3C25EA8D3B@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, 18 May 2009, James Wynn wrote:\nThis is answer that socialist economics gives to libertarian/liberal \neconomics. The libertarian/liberal position is that governments do all sorts \nof things that are not ethical...\n\nWolfe is making the L/L argument.\n\nI'm grateful for this discussion, because when I read tDiaF I thought it was \njust a quaint, but obvious, morality tale. Now, I realize that it isn't so \n\"on the nose\" at all. It's actually a quite exquisite bit of propaganda \n(unlike say \"Atlas Shrugged\"). Truly masterful propaganda is one where the \naudience doesn't realize it's being propagandized." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In the same way, I think, that _Short Sun_ shows the shortcomings of the\nlibertarian/propertarian/frontier mentality, in the absence of some \nhigher ethic at work behind it.\n\nDavid Duffy." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4A12B961.80103@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-05-19T13:51:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 16", "in_reply_to": "<2061.72.171.0.145.1242696774.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Daniel, you really don't know how things work, do you? \n------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 \n18:05:22 -0400 From: Daniel D Jones Subject: \nRe: (urth) Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 16 To: The Urth Mailing List \n Message-ID: \n<200905181805.22952.ddjones at riddlemaster.org> Content-Type: Text/Plain; " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "charset=\"iso-8859-1\" On Monday 18 May 2009 17:29:58 David Stockhoff wrote:\nAnd finally, I agree with your quoted description of socialism. But it\nclearly has nothing to do with robbing anyone. Governments redistribute\nwealth all the time." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Do you think that because it's done under the blessing of governmental \nauthority it's any less a taking by force than were it the act of a \nhighwayman? And the assertion that \"it's done all the time\" is quite \northogonal to the issue of whether or not it's justified." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Did you know that usury, which has been illegal since\nthe Byzantine emperors, is now legal in the US? It's called \"payday loans.\"\nThey are illegal for a reason---and the government that can create them and\nmake them legal, thus imposing and enforcing them on the poor, can reverse\nthat to create a more just system. Incrementally speaking, that's\nsocialism." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What sort of doublespeak is this? In what way did the government create them? \nIn what way is the government imposing or enforcing them on the poor? Are \nthere government agents going out into neighborhoods forcing people to take \npayday loans? \n\n\n------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4A12BAF4.7060402@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-05-19T13:58:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Devil in a Forest", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You certainly have a point about good propaganda. And although I don't think your counterargument that governments are often unethical really holds much water (fish sometimes fall from the sky, too), I think your summary of the \"L/L\" position is apt. \n\nNOTHING is right simply because everyone agreed on it as a group. Had a single Abel-style \"good\" knight ridden into town in the middle of TDiaF, the story would have become much more clearly propagandistic. (He would have had to kill everyone but the women and children, and he would not have been wrong.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 6\nDate: Mon, 18 May 2009 17:10:12 -0500\nFrom: \"James Wynn\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Devil in a Forest\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: <5899990178F74F96B5591E3C25EA8D3B at eMachinePC>\nContent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=\"iso-8859-1\";\n\treply-type=response" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Sackhoff said:\nAnd finally, I agree with your quoted description of socialism.\nBut it clearly has nothing to do with robbing anyone. Governments \nredistribute wealth all the time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n\nThis is answer that socialist economics gives to libertarian/liberal \neconomics. The libertarian/liberal position is that governments do all sorts \nof things that are not ethical. Spain lawfully nationalized and \nredistributed all the property of Jews at one point. It doesn't make it \nethical or just. The L/L position is that if an unrecompensed transfer of \nproperty is not right on a personal level, then it is not laundered because \nthree out of five people voted that the fifth person had more than he \nneeded.\n\nWolfe is making the L/L argument.\n\nI'm grateful for this discussion, because when I read tDiaF I thought it was \njust a quaint, but obvious, morality tale. Now, I realize that it isn't so \n\"on the nose\" at all. It's actually a quite exquisite bit of propaganda \n(unlike say \"Atlas Shrugged\"). Truly masterful propaganda is one where the \naudience doesn't realize it's being propagandized.\n\nJ. \n\n\n\n------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4A12BDB2.30301@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-05-19T14:09:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 16", "in_reply_to": "<4A12B961.80103@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Steven---\n\nInterest rates of 35%, the max now allowed in the US, is usury, because it exceeds 20%. It is most commonly found in credit card and payday loan\n\"fine print.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 2\nDate: Mon, 18 May 2009 21:27:13 -0400\nFrom: Steven \nSubject: Re: (urth) Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 16\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"us-ascii\"; Format=\"flowed\";\n\tDelSp=\"yes\"\n\n\nOn May 18, 2009, at 6:05 PM, Daniel D Jones wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Did you know that usury, which has been illegal since\nthe Byzantine emperors, is now legal in the US?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Still illegal in the Muslim world, that bastion of social \nequity...but more commonly called 'interest' in these parts, not \n'payday loans'. Now legal? Wha?\n\n\n\nSteven" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4A12BDD9.9020900@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-05-19T14:10:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 16", "in_reply_to": "<4A12BDB2.30301@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If Mao said it, it must be true." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 3\nDate: Mon, 18 May 2009 21:32:54 -0400 (EDT)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nSubject: Re: (urth) Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 16\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: <2061.72.171.0.145.1242696774.squirrel at brunians.org>\nContent-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1\n\nThis does not change the nature of the interaction, Dan'l. I do understand\nwhy one would want to deny the reality of the thing, of course.\n\nGovernment is force. It is a dangerous servant and a fierce master.\n\n-- George Washington\n\nPolitical power comes out of the barrel of a gun.\n\n-- Mao Zedong\n\nGovernment is the monopoly on legitimate violence.\n\n-- Josh Geller" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4A12C26E.1070002@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-05-19T14:30:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Devil in a Forest", "in_reply_to": "<4A12BAF4.7060402@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think there is more to it than just how sneaky his propaganda is. Sure, Wolfe is propagandizing, as always---but he doesn't just propagandize for a narrow segment of the political spectrum, and he rarely makes things as black and white and baldly allegorical as you seem to suggest. Rather, he asks questions and examines the moral aspects of the range of answers. \n\nAlmost by definition, an interpretation of Wolfe that keeps it simple---says \"Wolfe is pro-gun,\" for example---is going to be inadequate, even if not flatly wrong.\n\nIn other words, don't lose the forest for the trees, even if there is a devil hiding in them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Mon, 18 May 2009 22:41:30 -0500\nFrom: \"James Wynn\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Devil in a Forest\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: <322A6386203C478F871C5C0BEAD76770 at eMachinePC>\nContent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=\"iso-8859-1\";\n\treply-type=original" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"Propaganda\" may be just the right term for Wolfe.\nOriginally it was a term used by the Vatican for the\npropagation of the faith. It's come to have a cheaper meaning." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n\nI use the term \"propaganda\" to mean \"the attempt to persuade at the \nnon-rational level\". It has a bad rap because it is typically so inartfully \ndone. The idea is to have the audience only stew in the well-seasoned juices \nof the argument so they rationally convince themselves at a later time. You \nhave to _demonstrate_ while exhibiting the self-control never _to tell_. \n\"The Devil in a Forest\" does that. If the work is essentially framed in a \n\"message\", rather than metaphor, the audience is forced to approach the \npropaganda on a rational level and it loses its much of its power. For \nexample, Woody Guthrie's \"This Land is Your Land\" is fantastic Communist \npropaganda (if you know all the verses). Pete Seeger's stuff is \nhack-work--if he had a hammer, he'd hit you over the head with it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "...tDiaF ends with a miracle -- the only \"fantasy\" element in the book..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n\nI even wonder whether it *is* the only fantasy element. There are subtle \nhints that the stories of Mother Cloot being able to fly might not be mere \nsuperstition at all. And at least twice it is noted that she *is* \nunexpectedly light. It is a tip to the hat that Evil is also not merely a \nfantasy element. Still, certainly the only _overtly_ non-rational event is \nthe abbe's healing.\n\nJ. \n\n\n\n------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1131.67.142.130.41.1242744080.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-05-19T14:41:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 16", "in_reply_to": "<4A12BDD9.9020900@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mao was a perceptive guy about some things. Power and how to use it, for\ninstance. Decent poet also, I'm told.\n\nNot a very nice man, but pretty smart.\n\nIf three people as different as Mao, Washington and Geller agree about\nsomething, I'd say it's time to sit up and take notice.\n\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If Mao said it, it must be true.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 3\nDate: Mon, 18 May 2009 21:32:54 -0400 (EDT)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nSubject: Re: (urth) Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 16\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: <2061.72.171.0.145.1242696774.squirrel at brunians.org>\nContent-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1\n\nThis does not change the nature of the interaction, Dan'l. I do understand\nwhy one would want to deny the reality of the thing, of course.\n\nGovernment is force. It is a dangerous servant and a fierce master.\n\n-- George Washington\n\nPolitical power comes out of the barrel of a gun.\n\n-- Mao Zedong\n\nGovernment is the monopoly on legitimate violence.\n\n-- Josh Geller\n\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 090518-0, 05/18/2009\nTested on: 5/19/2009 10:10:34 AM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1957.67.142.130.41.1242744422.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-05-19T14:47:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Devil in a Forest", "in_reply_to": "<4A12C26E.1070002@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, \"Wolfe is pro-gun\" has the ring of truth to it, as does \"Wolfe\nis a fiscal conservative\". He has his point of view on things. People who\nagree with him generally have no trouble seeing it.\n\nPeople who (a) like Wolfe's fiction and (b) hold political views very\ndifferent from his tend to (I have noticed) jump through interesting hoops\nwhilst explaining that Wolfe does not actually believe what everyone else\nseems to think he does. Anything but that. They will deny it at length.\nLike most things, this is amusing once it stops being annoying.\n\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think there is more to it than just how sneaky his propaganda is. Sure,\nWolfe is propagandizing, as always---but he doesn't just propagandize for\na narrow segment of the political spectrum, and he rarely makes things as\nblack and white and baldly allegorical as you seem to suggest. Rather, he\nasks questions and examines the moral aspects of the range of answers.\n\nAlmost by definition, an interpretation of Wolfe that keeps it\nsimple---says \"Wolfe is pro-gun,\" for example---is going to be inadequate,\neven if not flatly wrong.\n\nIn other words, don't lose the forest for the trees, even if there is a\ndevil hiding in them.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Mon, 18 May 2009 22:41:30 -0500\nFrom: \"James Wynn\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Devil in a Forest\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: <322A6386203C478F871C5C0BEAD76770 at eMachinePC>\nContent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=\"iso-8859-1\";\n\treply-type=original" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "\"Propaganda\" may be just the right term for Wolfe.\nOriginally it was a term used by the Vatican for the\npropagation of the faith. It's come to have a cheaper meaning." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I use the term \"propaganda\" to mean \"the attempt to persuade at the\nnon-rational level\". It has a bad rap because it is typically so\ninartfully\ndone. The idea is to have the audience only stew in the well-seasoned\njuices\nof the argument so they rationally convince themselves at a later time.\nYou\nhave to _demonstrate_ while exhibiting the self-control never _to tell_.\n\"The Devil in a Forest\" does that. If the work is essentially framed in a\n\"message\", rather than metaphor, the audience is forced to approach the\npropaganda on a rational level and it loses its much of its power. For\nexample, Woody Guthrie's \"This Land is Your Land\" is fantastic Communist\npropaganda (if you know all the verses). Pete Seeger's stuff is\nhack-work--if he had a hammer, he'd hit you over the head with it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "...tDiaF ends with a miracle -- the only \"fantasy\" element in the\nbook..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I even wonder whether it *is* the only fantasy element. There are subtle\nhints that the stories of Mother Cloot being able to fly might not be mere\nsuperstition at all. And at least twice it is noted that she *is*\nunexpectedly light. It is a tip to the hat that Evil is also not merely a\nfantasy element. Still, certainly the only _overtly_ non-rational event is\nthe abbe's healing.\n\nJ.\n\n\n\n------------------------------\n\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 090518-0, 05/18/2009\nTested on: 5/19/2009 10:30:07 AM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6989DB2D2FE34E278A9BB3E6E28D6641@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-05-19T14:52:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Devil in a Forest", "in_reply_to": "<4A12C26E.1070002@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think there is more to it than just how sneaky his propaganda is. Sure, \nWolfe is propagandizing, as always---but he doesn't just\npropagandize for a narrow segment of the political spectrum,\nand he rarely makes things as black and white and baldly\nallegorical as you seem to suggest." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I'm really only referring to this one work as libertarian/liberal \npropaganda. When I said \"Wat/Robin Hood is an interesting exemplar of the \ncorrupting nature of socialism\", I wasn't trying to stake a flag in the name \nof John Stuart Mill. I thought it was mildly obvious. If you don't see it \neven when pointed out, then that's kudos to Wolfe. Silk's explanation of why \nhe doesn't collect everyone's weapons is also propaganda, but not so \nartfully done. Way too obvious.\n\nOn the other hand, James Jordan is correct when he says that Wolfe is a \nmaster propagandizer of Christian principles. Still, one could reasonably \nsay the same of him regarding Gnosticism. Is the Sun Cycle to Gnosticism \nwhat The Chronicles of Narnia are orthodox Christianity?\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<99BD246A-58EB-498A-B4E5-99C94186507E@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-05-19T15:10:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Devil in a Forest", "in_reply_to": "<1957.67.142.130.41.1242744422.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm a democratic socialist and a member of the US Communist party. I \nalso do not believe in God. It doesn't affect me one way or the other \nthat Wolfe is my opposite number on these positions, because his \nstories are still very, very awesome.\n\nGood literature transcends factionalism.\n\nLane\n\nSent from my iPhone" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 19, 2009, at 9:47 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nActually, \"Wolfe is pro-gun\" has the ring of truth to it, as does \n\"Wolfe\nis a fiscal conservative\". He has his point of view on things. \nPeople who\nagree with him generally have no trouble seeing it.\n\nPeople who (a) like Wolfe's fiction and (b) hold political views very\ndifferent from his tend to (I have noticed) jump through interesting \nhoops\nwhilst explaining that Wolfe does not actually believe what everyone \nelse\nseems to think he does. Anything but that. They will deny it at \nlength.\nLike most things, this is amusing once it stops being annoying.\n\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think there is more to it than just how sneaky his propaganda is. \nSure,\nWolfe is propagandizing, as always---but he doesn't just \npropagandize for\na narrow segment of the political spectrum, and he rarely makes \nthings as\nblack and white and baldly allegorical as you seem to suggest. \nRather, he\nasks questions and examines the moral aspects of the range of \nanswers.\n\nAlmost by definition, an interpretation of Wolfe that keeps it\nsimple---says \"Wolfe is pro-gun,\" for example---is going to be \ninadequate,\neven if not flatly wrong.\n\nIn other words, don't lose the forest for the trees, even if there \nis a\ndevil hiding in them.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Mon, 18 May 2009 22:41:30 -0500\nFrom: \"James Wynn\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Devil in a Forest\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: <322A6386203C478F871C5C0BEAD76770 at eMachinePC>\nContent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=\"iso-8859-1\";\n reply-type=original" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "\"Propaganda\" may be just the right term for Wolfe.\nOriginally it was a term used by the Vatican for the\npropagation of the faith. It's come to have a cheaper meaning." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I use the term \"propaganda\" to mean \"the attempt to persuade at the\nnon-rational level\". It has a bad rap because it is typically so\ninartfully\ndone. The idea is to have the audience only stew in the well-seasoned\njuices\nof the argument so they rationally convince themselves at a later \ntime.\nYou\nhave to _demonstrate_ while exhibiting the self-control never _to \ntell_.\n\"The Devil in a Forest\" does that. If the work is essentially \nframed in a\n\"message\", rather than metaphor, the audience is forced to approach \nthe\npropaganda on a rational level and it loses its much of its power. \nFor\nexample, Woody Guthrie's \"This Land is Your Land\" is fantastic \nCommunist\npropaganda (if you know all the verses). Pete Seeger's stuff is\nhack-work--if he had a hammer, he'd hit you over the head with it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "...tDiaF ends with a miracle -- the only \"fantasy\" element in the\nbook..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I even wonder whether it *is* the only fantasy element. There are \nsubtle\nhints that the stories of Mother Cloot being able to fly might not \nbe mere\nsuperstition at all. And at least twice it is noted that she *is*\nunexpectedly light. It is a tip to the hat that Evil is also not \nmerely a\nfantasy element. Still, certainly the only _overtly_ non-rational \nevent is\nthe abbe's healing.\n\nJ.\n\n\n\n------------------------------\n\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 090518-0, 05/18/2009\nTested on: 5/19/2009 10:30:07 AM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4A12CD1E.5010706@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-05-19T15:15:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Devil in a Forest", "in_reply_to": "<99BD246A-58EB-498A-B4E5-99C94186507E@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Exactly. And apparently it doesn't hurt to repeat that literature is not simply a conversion of ideology into story and plot. Insisting otherwise has long since stopped being amusing; it is now a minor irritation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 7\nDate: Tue, 19 May 2009 10:10:37 -0500\nFrom: Lane Haygood \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Devil in a Forest\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: <99BD246A-58EB-498A-B4E5-99C94186507E at gmail.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain;\tcharset=us-ascii;\tformat=flowed;\tdelsp=yes\n\nI'm a democratic socialist and a member of the US Communist party. I \nalso do not believe in God. It doesn't affect me one way or the other \nthat Wolfe is my opposite number on these positions, because his \nstories are still very, very awesome.\n\nGood literature transcends factionalism.\n\nLane\n\nSent from my iPhone\n\nOn May 19, 2009, at 9:47 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Actually, \"Wolfe is pro-gun\" has the ring of truth to it, as does \n\"Wolfe\nis a fiscal conservative\". He has his point of view on things. \nPeople who\nagree with him generally have no trouble seeing it.\n\nPeople who (a) like Wolfe's fiction and (b) hold political views very\ndifferent from his tend to (I have noticed) jump through interesting \nhoops\nwhilst explaining that Wolfe does not actually believe what everyone \nelse\nseems to think he does. Anything but that. They will deny it at \nlength.\nLike most things, this is amusing once it stops being annoying." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4A12CE7C.3060900@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-05-19T15:21:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Devil in a Forest", "in_reply_to": "<4A12CD1E.5010706@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's not a question of not seeing it---it's a question of seeing something else that is much more interesting. Wat's crimes are only one form of the corrupting nature of groups and thus the corruptable nature of humans. They are primarily criminal and only superficially socialistic, and thus can't really be held up as representative of socialism. They are representative of something, but, rather, they are an example of how men can be corrupted by the offering of group anonymity and free lunches. \n\nIs war any different? Wolfe asks this question all the time. War is also an impersonal transaction between groups in which no individual need feel personally responsible." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 6\nDate: Tue, 19 May 2009 09:52:27 -0500\nFrom: \"James Wynn\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Devil in a Forest\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: <6989DB2D2FE34E278A9BB3E6E28D6641 at eMachinePC>\nContent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=\"iso-8859-1\";\n\treply-type=response" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think there is more to it than just how sneaky his propaganda is. Sure, \nWolfe is propagandizing, as always---but he doesn't just\npropagandize for a narrow segment of the political spectrum,\nand he rarely makes things as black and white and baldly\nallegorical as you seem to suggest." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n\nWell, I'm really only referring to this one work as libertarian/liberal \npropaganda. When I said \"Wat/Robin Hood is an interesting exemplar of the \ncorrupting nature of socialism\", I wasn't trying to stake a flag in the name \nof John Stuart Mill. I thought it was mildly obvious. If you don't see it \neven when pointed out, then that's kudos to Wolfe. Silk's explanation of why \nhe doesn't collect everyone's weapons is also propaganda, but not so \nartfully done. Way too obvious.\n\nOn the other hand, James Jordan is correct when he says that Wolfe is a \nmaster propagandizer of Christian principles. Still, one could reasonably \nsay the same of him regarding Gnosticism. Is the Sun Cycle to Gnosticism \nwhat The Chronicles of Narnia are orthodox Christianity?\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<132371.66757.qm@web180205.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "John Smith", "address": "jsmith2627 at att.net" }, "date": "2009-05-19T15:39:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Interest", "in_reply_to": "<4A12BDB2.30301@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Judaism, Christianity and Islam have all, at times, condemned the lending of money at any rate of interest at all. Usury today means a very high rate of interest, especially a rate higher than that allowed by law. \n\nSometimes religions have presented philosophical reasons to oppose interest, like it being unnatural for money to breed money, but the underlying objection seems to be that interest charges hurt the poor.\n\nHowever, if lenders cannot earn a return, they will not lend money at all. Compounding the problem for the poor, lenders charge higher rates for less credit-worthy borrowers. So you have some very high rates for credit cards and pay day loans. And if government completely bans high interest rates, the poor are forced to go to loan sharks, who are even more greedy than pay day lenders. No wonder economics has been called the dismal science.\n\nTo come back to Gene Wolfe , I think we all agree that Wolfe is a conservative. One of the great things about him, however, is that he is not an apologist for the status quo. He shows us the cruelty and corruption of today in his societies on Urth and Sainte Croix and the Whorl and Blue. He has a fearless vision of what we all face. When Nicholas complains that Dr. Island has lied, Dr. Island says, \"if you are released you will have to deal with your society, which will lie to you frequently.\" That's a good thing to remember.\n\n\nBest wishes,\n\nJack" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Tue, 5/19/09, David Stockhoff wrote:\nFrom: David Stockhoff \nSubject: Re: (urth) Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 16\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nDate: Tuesday, May 19, 2009, 10:09 AM\nSteven---\n\nInterest rates of 35%, the max now allowed in the US, is\nusury, because it exceeds 20%. It is most commonly found in\ncredit card and payday loan\n\"fine print.\"\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 2\nDate: Mon, 18 May 2009 21:27:13 -0400\nFrom: Steven \nSubject: Re: (urth) Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 16\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID:\n\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"us-ascii\";\nFormat=\"flowed\";\n\tDelSp=\"yes\"\n\n\nOn May 18, 2009, at 6:05 PM, Daniel D Jones wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Did you know that usury, which has been\nillegal since\nthe Byzantine emperors, is now legal in\nthe US?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Still illegal in the Muslim world, that bastion of social \nequity...but more commonly called 'interest' in\nthese parts, not 'payday loans'. Now legal? Wha?\n\n\n\nSteven\n\n\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 090518-0, 05/18/2009\nTested on: 5/19/2009 10:09:55 AM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20090519175338.EHMQ8364.eastrmmtao105.cox.net@eastrmimpo02.cox.net>", "from": { "name": "James B. Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2009-05-19T17:53:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Devil in a Forest", "in_reply_to": "<4A12C26E.1070002@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 09:30 AM 5/19/2009, you wrote:\nI think there is more to it than just how sneaky his propaganda is. \nSure, Wolfe is propagandizing, as always---but he doesn't just \npropagandize for a narrow segment of the political spectrum, and he \nrarely makes things as black and white and baldly allegorical as you \nseem to suggest. Rather, he asks questions and examines the moral \naspects of the range of answers." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To be sure. And remember, tDiaF is written for teens, not adults. I \ndoubt if there is any teen fiction anywhere that does not try to \neducate in some direction.\n\nIn fact, I doubt if there is any fiction anywhere that does not come \nfrom some perspective, and therefore can be said to propagandize for \nthat perspective.\n\nFor instance, I don't think Wolfe wrote the Severian quintet in order \nto propagandize, but it is certainly the case that he is presenting \nthe notion that resurrection and a new world can only come on the \nother side of very serious destruction and judgment, brought about in \nresponse to serious malfeasance; and that it is the God who sent the \nTheoanthropos long ago who does this kind of thing. It's not a \nSanta-claus cozy liberal Christianity, but it is a Christian \nviewpoint. A \"severe Christian\" who writes a story about serious \nmatters is just going to write in this manner.\n\nFWIW\n\nNutria\n\n\n\nJames B. Jordan\nDirector, Biblical Horizons\nBox 1096\nNiceville, FL 32588\nhttp://www.biblicalhorizons.com " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4A12F5DB.1070103@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-05-19T18:09:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Interest", "in_reply_to": "<132371.66757.qm@web180205.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I hardly think that state legislatures allowed payday loans because they sympathized with poor people suffering at the hands of loan sharks. After all, such people don't have an association lobbying on their behalf in state capitols across the USA, though they do have groups advocating against their further abuse. No, it's another case of following the money---not where it comes from, but where it goes.\n\nHowever, that's beside the point. You are absolutely right about the way Wolfe treats current society. Science fiction was not invented, after all, to support the status quo. \n\nTo paraphrase James, you know that a novel's questioning of the status quo is successful when you don't even know it's going on." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Tue, 19 May 2009 08:39:48 -0700 (PDT)\nFrom: John Smith \nSubject: (urth) Interest\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: <132371.66757.qm at web180205.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii\n\n\n\nJudaism, Christianity and Islam have all, at times, condemned the lending of money at any rate of interest at all. Usury today means a very high rate of interest, especially a rate higher than that allowed by law. \n\nSometimes religions have presented philosophical reasons to oppose interest, like it being unnatural for money to breed money, but the underlying objection seems to be that interest charges hurt the poor.\n\nHowever, if lenders cannot earn a return, they will not lend money at all. Compounding the problem for the poor, lenders charge higher rates for less credit-worthy borrowers. So you have some very high rates for credit cards and pay day loans. And if government completely bans high interest rates, the poor are forced to go to loan sharks, who are even more greedy than pay day lenders. No wonder economics has been called the dismal science.\n\nTo come back to Gene Wolfe , I think we all agree that Wolfe is a conservative. One of the great things about him, however, is that he is not an apologist for the status quo. He shows us the cruelty and corruption of today in his societies on Urth and Sainte Croix and the Whorl and Blue. He has a fearless vision of what we all face. When Nicholas complains that Dr. Island has lied, Dr. Island says, \"if you are released you will have to deal with your society, which will lie to you frequently.\" That's a good thing to remember.\n\n\nBest wishes,\n\nJack" } ] }, { "message_id": "<10447.67.142.130.18.1242756818.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-05-19T18:13:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Devil in a Forest", "in_reply_to": "<99BD246A-58EB-498A-B4E5-99C94186507E@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "'tends to'.\n\nOnce in a while you run into a leftist who is not completely out of touch\nwith reality. Not too often.\n\nActually, that's not completely fair. Many leftists are in fact in touch\nenough with reality to carry on their daily lives. But if you talk to one\noften enough you will find that he believes stuff that just ain't so\n(like, the government issues money or theft is OK when it is performed by\nlegal process, things like that).\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm a democratic socialist and a member of the US Communist party. I\nalso do not believe in God. It doesn't affect me one way or the other\nthat Wolfe is my opposite number on these positions, because his\nstories are still very, very awesome.\n\nGood literature transcends factionalism.\n\nLane\n\nSent from my iPhone\n\nOn May 19, 2009, at 9:47 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Actually, \"Wolfe is pro-gun\" has the ring of truth to it, as does\n\"Wolfe\nis a fiscal conservative\". He has his point of view on things.\nPeople who\nagree with him generally have no trouble seeing it.\n\nPeople who (a) like Wolfe's fiction and (b) hold political views very\ndifferent from his tend to (I have noticed) jump through interesting\nhoops\nwhilst explaining that Wolfe does not actually believe what everyone\nelse\nseems to think he does. Anything but that. They will deny it at\nlength.\nLike most things, this is amusing once it stops being annoying.\n\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I think there is more to it than just how sneaky his propaganda is.\nSure,\nWolfe is propagandizing, as always---but he doesn't just\npropagandize for\na narrow segment of the political spectrum, and he rarely makes\nthings as\nblack and white and baldly allegorical as you seem to suggest.\nRather, he\nasks questions and examines the moral aspects of the range of\nanswers.\n\nAlmost by definition, an interpretation of Wolfe that keeps it\nsimple---says \"Wolfe is pro-gun,\" for example---is going to be\ninadequate,\neven if not flatly wrong.\n\nIn other words, don't lose the forest for the trees, even if there\nis a\ndevil hiding in them.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Mon, 18 May 2009 22:41:30 -0500\nFrom: \"James Wynn\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Devil in a Forest\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: <322A6386203C478F871C5C0BEAD76770 at eMachinePC>\nContent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=\"iso-8859-1\";\n reply-type=original" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "\"Propaganda\" may be just the right term for Wolfe.\nOriginally it was a term used by the Vatican for the\npropagation of the faith. It's come to have a cheaper meaning." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I use the term \"propaganda\" to mean \"the attempt to persuade at the\nnon-rational level\". It has a bad rap because it is typically so\ninartfully\ndone. The idea is to have the audience only stew in the well-seasoned\njuices\nof the argument so they rationally convince themselves at a later\ntime.\nYou\nhave to _demonstrate_ while exhibiting the self-control never _to\ntell_.\n\"The Devil in a Forest\" does that. If the work is essentially\nframed in a\n\"message\", rather than metaphor, the audience is forced to approach\nthe\npropaganda on a rational level and it loses its much of its power.\nFor\nexample, Woody Guthrie's \"This Land is Your Land\" is fantastic\nCommunist\npropaganda (if you know all the verses). Pete Seeger's stuff is\nhack-work--if he had a hammer, he'd hit you over the head with it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "...tDiaF ends with a miracle -- the only \"fantasy\" element in the\nbook..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I even wonder whether it *is* the only fantasy element. There are\nsubtle\nhints that the stories of Mother Cloot being able to fly might not\nbe mere\nsuperstition at all. And at least twice it is noted that she *is*\nunexpectedly light. It is a tip to the hat that Evil is also not\nmerely a\nfantasy element. Still, certainly the only _overtly_ non-rational\nevent is\nthe abbe's healing.\n\nJ.\n\n\n\n------------------------------\n\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 090518-0, 05/18/2009\nTested on: 5/19/2009 10:30:07 AM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<56C9453D-8E21-490A-9804-7B5254121D44@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-05-19T18:18:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Devil in a Forest", "in_reply_to": "<10447.67.142.130.18.1242756818.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's funny. We say the same things about libertarians.\n\nSent from my iPhone" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 19, 2009, at 1:13 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\n'tends to'.\n\nOnce in a while you run into a leftist who is not completely out of \ntouch\nwith reality. Not too often.\n\nActually, that's not completely fair. Many leftists are in fact in \ntouch\nenough with reality to carry on their daily lives. But if you talk \nto one\noften enough you will find that he believes stuff that just ain't so\n(like, the government issues money or theft is OK when it is \nperformed by\nlegal process, things like that).\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm a democratic socialist and a member of the US Communist party. I\nalso do not believe in God. It doesn't affect me one way or the other\nthat Wolfe is my opposite number on these positions, because his\nstories are still very, very awesome.\n\nGood literature transcends factionalism.\n\nLane\n\nSent from my iPhone\n\nOn May 19, 2009, at 9:47 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Actually, \"Wolfe is pro-gun\" has the ring of truth to it, as does\n\"Wolfe\nis a fiscal conservative\". He has his point of view on things.\nPeople who\nagree with him generally have no trouble seeing it.\n\nPeople who (a) like Wolfe's fiction and (b) hold political views \nvery\ndifferent from his tend to (I have noticed) jump through interesting\nhoops\nwhilst explaining that Wolfe does not actually believe what everyone\nelse\nseems to think he does. Anything but that. They will deny it at\nlength.\nLike most things, this is amusing once it stops being annoying.\n\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I think there is more to it than just how sneaky his propaganda is.\nSure,\nWolfe is propagandizing, as always---but he doesn't just\npropagandize for\na narrow segment of the political spectrum, and he rarely makes\nthings as\nblack and white and baldly allegorical as you seem to suggest.\nRather, he\nasks questions and examines the moral aspects of the range of\nanswers.\n\nAlmost by definition, an interpretation of Wolfe that keeps it\nsimple---says \"Wolfe is pro-gun,\" for example---is going to be\ninadequate,\neven if not flatly wrong.\n\nIn other words, don't lose the forest for the trees, even if there\nis a\ndevil hiding in them.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Mon, 18 May 2009 22:41:30 -0500\nFrom: \"James Wynn\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Devil in a Forest" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5107.67.142.130.18.1242757334.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-05-19T18:22:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Devil in a Forest", "in_reply_to": "<4A12CE7C.3060900@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Socialism is criminal.\n\nSocialism is the idea that theft is OK if it's done by the government.\n\nThe difference between war and socialism is that war is sometimes necessary.\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's not a question of not seeing it---it's a question of seeing something\nelse that is much more interesting. Wat's crimes are only one form of the\ncorrupting nature of groups and thus the corruptable nature of humans.\nThey are primarily criminal and only superficially socialistic, and thus\ncan't really be held up as representative of socialism. They are\nrepresentative of something, but, rather, they are an example of how men\ncan be corrupted by the offering of group anonymity and free lunches.\n\nIs war any different? Wolfe asks this question all the time. War is also\nan impersonal transaction between groups in which no individual need feel\npersonally responsible.\n\n\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 6\nDate: Tue, 19 May 2009 09:52:27 -0500\nFrom: \"James Wynn\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Devil in a Forest\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: <6989DB2D2FE34E278A9BB3E6E28D6641 at eMachinePC>\nContent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=\"iso-8859-1\";\n\treply-type=response" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I think there is more to it than just how sneaky his propaganda is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Sure,\nWolfe is propagandizing, as always---but he doesn't just\npropagandize for a narrow segment of the political spectrum,\nand he rarely makes things as black and white and baldly\nallegorical as you seem to suggest." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, I'm really only referring to this one work as libertarian/liberal\npropaganda. When I said \"Wat/Robin Hood is an interesting exemplar of the\ncorrupting nature of socialism\", I wasn't trying to stake a flag in the\nname\nof John Stuart Mill. I thought it was mildly obvious. If you don't see it\neven when pointed out, then that's kudos to Wolfe. Silk's explanation of\nwhy\nhe doesn't collect everyone's weapons is also propaganda, but not so\nartfully done. Way too obvious.\n\nOn the other hand, James Jordan is correct when he says that Wolfe is a\nmaster propagandizer of Christian principles. Still, one could reasonably\nsay the same of him regarding Gnosticism. Is the Sun Cycle to Gnosticism\nwhat The Chronicles of Narnia are orthodox Christianity?\n\nJ.\n\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 090518-0, 05/18/2009\nTested on: 5/19/2009 11:21:34 AM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-05-19T18:26:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Devil in a Forest", "in_reply_to": "<5107.67.142.130.18.1242757334.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 19, 2009, at 1:22 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nSocialism is criminal.\n\nSocialism is the idea that theft is OK if it's done by the government.\n\nThe difference between war and socialism is that war is sometimes \nnecessary." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How do you define \"criminal\", or \"theft\", without a legal code against \nwhich to define those actions?\n\nHow do you enforce a legal code in the absence of a government?\n\nHow do you pay for a government?\n\nWhat does this have to do with Gene Wolfe?\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20090519182910.GC29453@broggs.org>", "from": { "name": "Jeffrey Brent McBeth", "address": "mcbeth at broggs.org" }, "date": "2009-05-19T18:29:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Devil in a Forest", "in_reply_to": "<5107.67.142.130.18.1242757334.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 02:22:14PM -0400, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nSocialism is criminal.\n\nSocialism is the idea that theft is OK if it's done by the government." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is only theft if it isn't consentual. The mistake that Socialists\nmake is when they remove the consent. \n\nThe parallel problem with libertarianism is that a free market is an\nunstable state. (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unstable for a\nreasonable 50,000ft view of instability).\n\nI don't have a solution to either problem beyond Bill and Ted's.\n\nJeff" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "----------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\"The man who does not read good books has no advantage over \n the man who cannot read them.\"\n -- Mark Twain\n----------------------------------------------------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<11844.67.142.130.18.1242757754.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-05-19T18:29:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Interest", "in_reply_to": "<4A12F5DB.1070103@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's not illegal to be stupid.\n\nIt's also not illegal to take advantage of stupidity, within limits.\n\nMany poor people use neither pay day loans nor loan sharks. These are not\nthe stupid ones, and although I have no statistics to hand I would bet you\nthat the majority of these don't die poor.\n\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I hardly think that state legislatures allowed payday loans because they\nsympathized with poor people suffering at the hands of loan sharks. After\nall, such people don't have an association lobbying on their behalf in\nstate capitols across the USA, though they do have groups advocating\nagainst their further abuse. No, it's another case of following the\nmoney---not where it comes from, but where it goes.\n\nHowever, that's beside the point. You are absolutely right about the way\nWolfe treats current society. Science fiction was not invented, after all,\nto support the status quo.\n\nTo paraphrase James, you know that a novel's questioning of the status quo\nis successful when you don't even know it's going on.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Tue, 19 May 2009 08:39:48 -0700 (PDT)\nFrom: John Smith \nSubject: (urth) Interest\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: <132371.66757.qm at web180205.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii\n\n\n\nJudaism, Christianity and Islam have all, at times, condemned the lending\nof money at any rate of interest at all. Usury today means a very high\nrate of interest, especially a rate higher than that allowed by law.\n\nSometimes religions have presented philosophical reasons to oppose\ninterest, like it being unnatural for money to breed money, but the\nunderlying objection seems to be that interest charges hurt the poor.\n\nHowever, if lenders cannot earn a return, they will not lend money at all.\n Compounding the problem for the poor, lenders charge higher rates for\nless credit-worthy borrowers. So you have some very high rates for\ncredit cards and pay day loans. And if government completely bans high\ninterest rates, the poor are forced to go to loan sharks, who are even\nmore greedy than pay day lenders. No wonder economics has been called the\ndismal science.\n\nTo come back to Gene Wolfe , I think we all agree that Wolfe is a\nconservative. One of the great things about him, however, is that he is\nnot an apologist for the status quo. He shows us the cruelty and\ncorruption of today in his societies on Urth and Sainte Croix and the\nWhorl and Blue. He has a fearless vision of what we all face. When\nNicholas complains that Dr. Island has lied, Dr. Island says, \"if you are\nreleased you will have to deal with your society, which will lie to you\nfrequently.\" That's a good thing to remember.\n\n\nBest wishes,\n\nJack\n\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 090518-0, 05/18/2009\nTested on: 5/19/2009 2:09:33 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6843.67.142.130.18.1242757966.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-05-19T18:32:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Devil in a Forest", "in_reply_to": "<56C9453D-8E21-490A-9804-7B5254121D44@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Really?\n\nI have never met a libertarian who claims that the government issues money\nor that theft is OK when performed by the government.\n\nI'd be more than happy to talk to such a creature, just to see how its\nmind works (or should that be \"how its 'mind' 'works'\").\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's funny. We say the same things about libertarians.\n\nSent from my iPhone\n\nOn May 19, 2009, at 1:13 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "'tends to'.\n\nOnce in a while you run into a leftist who is not completely out of\ntouch\nwith reality. Not too often.\n\nActually, that's not completely fair. Many leftists are in fact in\ntouch\nenough with reality to carry on their daily lives. But if you talk\nto one\noften enough you will find that he believes stuff that just ain't so\n(like, the government issues money or theft is OK when it is\nperformed by\nlegal process, things like that).\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I'm a democratic socialist and a member of the US Communist party. I\nalso do not believe in God. It doesn't affect me one way or the other\nthat Wolfe is my opposite number on these positions, because his\nstories are still very, very awesome.\n\nGood literature transcends factionalism.\n\nLane\n\nSent from my iPhone\n\nOn May 19, 2009, at 9:47 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Actually, \"Wolfe is pro-gun\" has the ring of truth to it, as does\n\"Wolfe\nis a fiscal conservative\". He has his point of view on things.\nPeople who\nagree with him generally have no trouble seeing it.\n\nPeople who (a) like Wolfe's fiction and (b) hold political views\nvery\ndifferent from his tend to (I have noticed) jump through interesting\nhoops\nwhilst explaining that Wolfe does not actually believe what everyone\nelse\nseems to think he does. Anything but that. They will deny it at\nlength.\nLike most things, this is amusing once it stops being annoying.\n\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I think there is more to it than just how sneaky his propaganda is.\nSure,\nWolfe is propagandizing, as always---but he doesn't just\npropagandize for\na narrow segment of the political spectrum, and he rarely makes\nthings as\nblack and white and baldly allegorical as you seem to suggest.\nRather, he\nasks questions and examines the moral aspects of the range of\nanswers.\n\nAlmost by definition, an interpretation of Wolfe that keeps it\nsimple---says \"Wolfe is pro-gun,\" for example---is going to be\ninadequate,\neven if not flatly wrong.\n\nIn other words, don't lose the forest for the trees, even if there\nis a\ndevil hiding in them.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Mon, 18 May 2009 22:41:30 -0500\nFrom: \"James Wynn\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Devil in a Forest" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4AD7515D-5B04-4D95-BF80-774B9820A60B@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-05-19T18:56:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Devil in a Forest", "in_reply_to": "<6843.67.142.130.18.1242757966.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, I meant out of touch with reality.\n\nSent from my iPhone" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 19, 2009, at 1:32 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nReally?\n\nI have never met a libertarian who claims that the government issues \nmoney\nor that theft is OK when performed by the government.\n\nI'd be more than happy to talk to such a creature, just to see how its\nmind works (or should that be \"how its 'mind' 'works'\").\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That's funny. We say the same things about libertarians.\n\nSent from my iPhone\n\nOn May 19, 2009, at 1:13 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "'tends to'.\n\nOnce in a while you run into a leftist who is not completely out of\ntouch\nwith reality. Not too often.\n\nActually, that's not completely fair. Many leftists are in fact in\ntouch\nenough with reality to carry on their daily lives. But if you talk\nto one\noften enough you will find that he believes stuff that just ain't so\n(like, the government issues money or theft is OK when it is\nperformed by\nlegal process, things like that).\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I'm a democratic socialist and a member of the US Communist \nparty. I\nalso do not believe in God. It doesn't affect me one way or the \nother\nthat Wolfe is my opposite number on these positions, because his\nstories are still very, very awesome.\n\nGood literature transcends factionalism.\n\nLane\n\nSent from my iPhone\n\nOn May 19, 2009, at 9:47 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Actually, \"Wolfe is pro-gun\" has the ring of truth to it, as does\n\"Wolfe\nis a fiscal conservative\". He has his point of view on things.\nPeople who\nagree with him generally have no trouble seeing it.\n\nPeople who (a) like Wolfe's fiction and (b) hold political views\nvery\ndifferent from his tend to (I have noticed) jump through \ninteresting\nhoops\nwhilst explaining that Wolfe does not actually believe what \neveryone\nelse\nseems to think he does. Anything but that. They will deny it at\nlength.\nLike most things, this is amusing once it stops being annoying.\n\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "I think there is more to it than just how sneaky his propaganda \nis.\nSure,\nWolfe is propagandizing, as always---but he doesn't just\npropagandize for\na narrow segment of the political spectrum, and he rarely makes\nthings as\nblack and white and baldly allegorical as you seem to suggest.\nRather, he\nasks questions and examines the moral aspects of the range of\nanswers.\n\nAlmost by definition, an interpretation of Wolfe that keeps it\nsimple---says \"Wolfe is pro-gun,\" for example---is going to be\ninadequate,\neven if not flatly wrong.\n\nIn other words, don't lose the forest for the trees, even if \nthere\nis a\ndevil hiding in them.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Mon, 18 May 2009 22:41:30 -0500\nFrom: \"James Wynn\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Devil in a Forest" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-05-19T19:08:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Devil in a Forest", "in_reply_to": "<6843.67.142.130.18.1242757966.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Really?\nI have never met a libertarian who claims that the government issues money\nor that theft is OK when performed by the government.\nI'd be more than happy to talk to such a creature, just to see how its\nmind works (or should that be \"how its 'mind' 'works'\")." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm all for scientific inquiry, but if we going to have a persistent thread \non the virtues of Socialism and Libertarianism divorced from direct \nreferences to Wolfe's books, then I'd prefer we change the title. I'm not \nsure I'm done with this particular discussion and I'd like to avoid having \nit zombified.\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4A1303DE.70602@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-05-19T19:09:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Devil in a Forest", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Adam, please don't heckle the comedic stylings of our very own Josh Geller. \n\nHe's on a roll!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Tue, 19 May 2009 13:26:11 -0500\nFrom: Adam Thornton \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Devil in a Forest\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes\n\n\nOn May 19, 2009, at 1:22 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Socialism is criminal.\n\nSocialism is the idea that theft is OK if it's done by the government.\n\nThe difference between war and socialism is that war is sometimes \nnecessary." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n\nHow do you define \"criminal\", or \"theft\", without a legal code against \nwhich to define those actions?\n\nHow do you enforce a legal code in the absence of a government?\n\nHow do you pay for a government?\n\nWhat does this have to do with Gene Wolfe?\n\nAdam\n\n\n------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5354.67.142.130.18.1242760194.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-05-19T19:09:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Devil in a Forest", "in_reply_to": "<4AD7515D-5B04-4D95-BF80-774B9820A60B@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So do you just say and titter at each other or do you have some examples\n(you will note that I gave two examples of what I was talking about)?\n\nAre you really a member of CPUSA, Lane? I thought that they were all gone,\nGus Hall fucked off to North Korea when the Russian money was cut off.\n\nIt's sort of quaint, really. Like meeting a time traveller.\n\nAre you one of those crusty old commies like my quasirelative Dave Wald\n(http://www.sanjosepeace.org/mediagallery/album.php?aid=8)? If you are\nyounger than thirty or so you should be aware that you may not actually be\na socialist, but a larval conservative: the process by which a young\nsocialist becomes and old capitalist is widely known.\n\nPeace and Freedom!\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No, I meant out of touch with reality.\n\nSent from my iPhone\n\nOn May 19, 2009, at 1:32 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Really?\n\nI have never met a libertarian who claims that the government issues\nmoney\nor that theft is OK when performed by the government.\n\nI'd be more than happy to talk to such a creature, just to see how its\nmind works (or should that be \"how its 'mind' 'works'\").\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "That's funny. We say the same things about libertarians.\n\nSent from my iPhone\n\nOn May 19, 2009, at 1:13 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "'tends to'.\n\nOnce in a while you run into a leftist who is not completely out of\ntouch\nwith reality. Not too often.\n\nActually, that's not completely fair. Many leftists are in fact in\ntouch\nenough with reality to carry on their daily lives. But if you talk\nto one\noften enough you will find that he believes stuff that just ain't so\n(like, the government issues money or theft is OK when it is\nperformed by\nlegal process, things like that).\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I'm a democratic socialist and a member of the US Communist\nparty. I\nalso do not believe in God. It doesn't affect me one way or the\nother\nthat Wolfe is my opposite number on these positions, because his\nstories are still very, very awesome.\n\nGood literature transcends factionalism.\n\nLane\n\nSent from my iPhone\n\nOn May 19, 2009, at 9:47 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Actually, \"Wolfe is pro-gun\" has the ring of truth to it, as does\n\"Wolfe\nis a fiscal conservative\". He has his point of view on things.\nPeople who\nagree with him generally have no trouble seeing it.\n\nPeople who (a) like Wolfe's fiction and (b) hold political views\nvery\ndifferent from his tend to (I have noticed) jump through\ninteresting\nhoops\nwhilst explaining that Wolfe does not actually believe what\neveryone\nelse\nseems to think he does. Anything but that. They will deny it at\nlength.\nLike most things, this is amusing once it stops being annoying.\n\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "I think there is more to it than just how sneaky his propaganda\nis.\nSure,\nWolfe is propagandizing, as always---but he doesn't just\npropagandize for\na narrow segment of the political spectrum, and he rarely makes\nthings as\nblack and white and baldly allegorical as you seem to suggest.\nRather, he\nasks questions and examines the moral aspects of the range of\nanswers.\n\nAlmost by definition, an interpretation of Wolfe that keeps it\nsimple---says \"Wolfe is pro-gun,\" for example---is going to be\ninadequate,\neven if not flatly wrong.\n\nIn other words, don't lose the forest for the trees, even if\nthere\nis a\ndevil hiding in them.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Mon, 18 May 2009 22:41:30 -0500\nFrom: \"James Wynn\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Devil in a Forest" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4A1304A1.1000901@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-05-19T19:12:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Devil in a Forest", "in_reply_to": "<5354.67.142.130.18.1242760194.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Below" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 6\nDate: Tue, 19 May 2009 14:29:10 -0400\nFrom: Jeffrey Brent McBeth \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Devil in a Forest\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: <20090519182910.GC29453 at broggs.org>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"us-ascii\"\n\nOn Tue, May 19, 2009 at 02:22:14PM -0400, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Socialism is criminal.\n\nSocialism is the idea that theft is OK if it's done by the government." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n\nIt is only theft if it isn't consensual. \n\n-----Correct.\n\nThe mistake that Socialists\nmake is when they remove the consent. \n\n-----That's a mistake no matter who makes it. Again, there is this persistent belief that socialism denies consent to the governed. Don't confuse it with communism." } ] }, { "message_id": "<15669.67.142.130.18.1242760882.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-05-19T19:21:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure, why not?\n\nI want to say that I am neither a socialist nor a big L libertarian. I\nsometimes call myself a Goldwater Republican, sometimes a Jeffersonian,\nsometimes a Machiavellian.\n\nI think that government is, by its very nature, the enemy of human people\nand that it should be kept weak and never trusted.\n\nI think that individuals are the best judges of how their money is to be\nspent.\n\nI think that the use of public money, that is money obtained by armed\nrobbery from the citizenry, should be restricted to a very few very\nspecific areas of expense.\n\nI am not necessarily opposed to social welfare schemes, but I would\nideally like to see one that doesn't involve large scale theft. Such a\nthing might even be possible: the Mormons do it, after all.\n\n\n\"The way we do things in this country is you get to do whatever you like\nas long as you aren't preventing someone else from doing what they like.\"\n\n\n-- Major General Barry Goldwater USAF\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Really?\nI have never met a libertarian who claims that the government issues\nmoney\nor that theft is OK when performed by the government.\nI'd be more than happy to talk to such a creature, just to see how its\nmind works (or should that be \"how its 'mind' 'works'\")." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm all for scientific inquiry, but if we going to have a persistent\nthread\non the virtues of Socialism and Libertarianism divorced from direct\nreferences to Wolfe's books, then I'd prefer we change the title. I'm not\nsure I'm done with this particular discussion and I'd like to avoid having\nit zombified.\n\nJ.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<11675.67.142.130.18.1242760999.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-05-19T19:23:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Devil in a Forest", "in_reply_to": "<5354.67.142.130.18.1242760194.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So do you just say" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "insert 'that': \"do you just say that and titter at each other\".\n\nBrain ahead of typing gets. Blah." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " and titter at each other or do you have some examples\n(you will note that I gave two examples of what I was talking about)?\n\nAre you really a member of CPUSA, Lane? I thought that they were all gone,\nGus Hall fucked off to North Korea when the Russian money was cut off.\n\nIt's sort of quaint, really. Like meeting a time traveller.\n\nAre you one of those crusty old commies like my quasirelative Dave Wald\n(http://www.sanjosepeace.org/mediagallery/album.php?aid=8)? If you are\nyounger than thirty or so you should be aware that you may not actually be\na socialist, but a larval conservative: the process by which a young\nsocialist becomes and old capitalist is widely known.\n\nPeace and Freedom!\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "No, I meant out of touch with reality.\n\nSent from my iPhone\n\nOn May 19, 2009, at 1:32 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Really?\n\nI have never met a libertarian who claims that the government issues\nmoney\nor that theft is OK when performed by the government.\n\nI'd be more than happy to talk to such a creature, just to see how its\nmind works (or should that be \"how its 'mind' 'works'\").\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "That's funny. We say the same things about libertarians.\n\nSent from my iPhone\n\nOn May 19, 2009, at 1:13 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "'tends to'.\n\nOnce in a while you run into a leftist who is not completely out of\ntouch\nwith reality. Not too often.\n\nActually, that's not completely fair. Many leftists are in fact in\ntouch\nenough with reality to carry on their daily lives. But if you talk\nto one\noften enough you will find that he believes stuff that just ain't so\n(like, the government issues money or theft is OK when it is\nperformed by\nlegal process, things like that).\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "I'm a democratic socialist and a member of the US Communist\nparty. I\nalso do not believe in God. It doesn't affect me one way or the\nother\nthat Wolfe is my opposite number on these positions, because his\nstories are still very, very awesome.\n\nGood literature transcends factionalism.\n\nLane\n\nSent from my iPhone\n\nOn May 19, 2009, at 9:47 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "Actually, \"Wolfe is pro-gun\" has the ring of truth to it, as does\n\"Wolfe\nis a fiscal conservative\". He has his point of view on things.\nPeople who\nagree with him generally have no trouble seeing it.\n\nPeople who (a) like Wolfe's fiction and (b) hold political views\nvery\ndifferent from his tend to (I have noticed) jump through\ninteresting\nhoops\nwhilst explaining that Wolfe does not actually believe what\neveryone\nelse\nseems to think he does. Anything but that. They will deny it at\nlength.\nLike most things, this is amusing once it stops being annoying.\n\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "I think there is more to it than just how sneaky his propaganda\nis.\nSure,\nWolfe is propagandizing, as always---but he doesn't just\npropagandize for\na narrow segment of the political spectrum, and he rarely makes\nthings as\nblack and white and baldly allegorical as you seem to suggest.\nRather, he\nasks questions and examines the moral aspects of the range of\nanswers.\n\nAlmost by definition, an interpretation of Wolfe that keeps it\nsimple---says \"Wolfe is pro-gun,\" for example---is going to be\ninadequate,\neven if not flatly wrong.\n\nIn other words, don't lose the forest for the trees, even if\nthere\nis a\ndevil hiding in them.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Mon, 18 May 2009 22:41:30 -0500\nFrom: \"James Wynn\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Devil in a Forest" } ] }, { "message_id": "<13409.67.142.130.18.1242761222.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-05-19T19:27:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "<4A1304A1.1000901@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Below\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 6\nDate: Tue, 19 May 2009 14:29:10 -0400\nFrom: Jeffrey Brent McBeth \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Devil in a Forest\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: <20090519182910.GC29453 at broggs.org>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"us-ascii\"\n\nOn Tue, May 19, 2009 at 02:22:14PM -0400, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Socialism is criminal.\n\nSocialism is the idea that theft is OK if it's done by the government." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is only theft if it isn't consensual.\n\n-----Correct.\n\nThe mistake that Socialists\nmake is when they remove the consent.\n\n-----That's a mistake no matter who makes it. Again, there is this\npersistent belief that socialism denies consent to the governed. Don't\nconfuse it with communism." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Please do explain how consensual taxation works: I am all ears.\n\nVoluntary communism, like you find in monastaries, is something that I\nactually appreciate and strongly approve of.\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 090518-0, 05/18/2009\nTested on: 5/19/2009 3:12:35 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2BCC6FAA-905B-4A04-BFAE-817E0EDE9BD8@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-05-19T19:39:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "<13409.67.142.130.18.1242761222.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 19, 2009, at 2:27 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nPlease do explain how consensual taxation works: I am all ears." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This one's easy.\n\nThe government provides services I find beneficial, such as police and \nfire protection, maintained roads, public education, and so forth.\n\nOn balance, the amount I'm paying for those services seems broadly \nfair. Sure, there are inefficiences--waste, corruption, places money \nis spent where I think it shouldn't be and things that don't get \nfunded that I think should be--but I am much more in favor of it than \nI would be of a zero-taxation Hobbesian war of all against all. I \nlack the ruthlessness (not to mention physical conditioning) necessary \nto survive for long in *that* world.\n\nTherefore, taxation is, at least for me, consensual. Sure, that \ndoesn't mean I don't think it can improve--that's why I vote on local \ntaxation-related ballot initiatives, for instance--but it represents \nsomething much closer to my ideal state than its absence would.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4A130AED.5050505@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-05-19T19:39:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Devil in a Forest", "in_reply_to": "<11675.67.142.130.18.1242760999.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, let's see. I just voted for a tax increase. I have helped elect people who raised taxes, because they said they would raise taxes. As a result, I will pay more taxes. I want to pay more taxes.\n\nWhy? Because it's a deal. Because my city is broke. Because I believe in the public good. Because I'm not rich.\n\n\"Consent.\" It's not just the theme of a teen sci-fi novel. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Tue, 19 May 2009 15:27:02 -0400 (EDT)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nSubject: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: <13409.67.142.130.18.1242761222.squirrel at brunians.org>\nContent-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It is only theft if it isn't consensual.\n\n-----Correct.\n\nThe mistake that Socialists\nmake is when they remove the consent.\n\n-----That's a mistake no matter who makes it. Again, there is this\npersistent belief that socialism denies consent to the governed. Don't\nconfuse it with communism." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n\nOn Tue, May 19, 2009 at 02:22:14PM -0400, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nPlease do explain how consensual taxation works: I am all ears.\n\nVoluntary communism, like you find in monastaries, is something that I\nactually appreciate and strongly approve of." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-05-19T20:01:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "<2BCC6FAA-905B-4A04-BFAE-817E0EDE9BD8@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Josh said:\nPlease do explain how consensual taxation works: I am all ears." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Adam responded: This one's easy.\nThe government provides services I find beneficial, such as police and \nfire protection, maintained roads, public education, and so forth.\nTherefore, taxation is, at least for me, consensual." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, okay, Adam but if you change your mind about the cost-benefit of the \nservices provided, they will take it from you anyway. The obvious conclusion \nis that your personal consent is irrelevant. That you have decided you like \nit right now is just a happy coincidence for you.\n\nBut that's just fee for service. In tDiaF, Wolfe is talking about something \nelse. You don't support police, fire protection, etc. equally with your \nneighbors. Most people are benefiting from those services far beyond what \nthey would receive if everyone paid the same percentage from their labor and \nproperty. This is a *transfer* of wealth from one citizen to another. This \nis what Wolfe is talking about when he compares socialism/welfare state with \nRobin Hood.\n\nFor example, the market value of health care is established given what \npeople pay out of pocket, for insurance, and the amount the government \nsubsidizes hospitals and such. If people were told that --in order to cover \npeople not covered--they'll have to pay more or get decreased quality of \ncare, they'd never go for it. The way it is sold is that *somebody else* is \ngoing to bear the increased costs: somebody who can \"afford it.\" That is \ncertainly \"theft\" by many common definitions.\n\nYou can say that \"Well, we live in a society, and that's just the burden \nthat rich people will have to bear to live in it with us. Fine. The Wall \nStreet Journal has an article yesterday by Art Laffer on what the response \nof rich people is to that ultimatum.\n\nhttp://online.wsj.com/article/SB124260067214828295.html\n\nThey leave.\nJust as the pilgrims left when Wat set up shop in the forest.\n\nSo the arrangement is unsustainable (if increased prosperity for all is the \ngoal).\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<002BF131-691F-4247-B56E-19C9D86BDA6D@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-05-19T20:06:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On May 19, 2009, at 3:01 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nJosh said:\nPlease do explain how consensual taxation works: I am all ears." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Adam responded: This one's easy.\nThe government provides services I find beneficial, such as police \nand fire protection, maintained roads, public education, and so \nforth.\nTherefore, taxation is, at least for me, consensual." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, okay, Adam but if you change your mind about the cost-benefit \nof the services provided, they will take it from you anyway. The \nobvious conclusion is that your personal consent is irrelevant. \nThat you have decided you like it right now is just a happy \ncoincidence for you." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Let us say, rather, that my personal consent is only relevant as part \nof the input to the process by which taxes are levied. In other \nwords, I get one vote, and my personal preferences don't trump that.\n\nI'm reasonably happy with that as emblematic of how a democratic \nsociety is supposed to work. And, as you say, if I don't like it, I \nam free to leave.\n\n[...]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You can say that \"Well, we live in a society, and that's just the \nburden that rich people will have to bear to live in it with us. \nFine. The Wall Street Journal has an article yesterday by Art Laffer \non what the response of rich people is to that ultimatum.\n\nhttp://online.wsj.com/article/SB124260067214828295.html\n\nThey leave.\nJust as the pilgrims left when Wat set up shop in the forest." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And yet, I see very few millionaires moving to Mogadishu.\n\nWhy do you suppose that is?\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-05-19T20:10:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Devil in a Forest", "in_reply_to": "<5354.67.142.130.18.1242760194.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am. I became a Marxist during law school when I studied critical \nlegal theory. It's an outgrowth of my abiding interest in German \nIdealism, phenomenology and Continental philosophy in general. In my \npractice as a lawyer (for the State) I apply the principles of \ncritical criminology (a la Willem Bonger) to criminal prosecution, \nusing the law and the power of collective society to bring about \nsocial justice. The economics of the situation are central to my \nthinking and my practice.\n\nBut, I realize that my viewpoint is not somehow privileged or right by \nfiat. I understand you and your position, and while I don't share it, \nI can't begrudge you your own choices. Politically, this is the beauty \nof democracy.\n\nSent from my iPhone" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 19, 2009, at 2:09 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nSo do you just say and titter at each other or do you have some \nexamples\n(you will note that I gave two examples of what I was talking about)?\n\nAre you really a member of CPUSA, Lane? I thought that they were all \ngone,\nGus Hall fucked off to North Korea when the Russian money was cut off.\n\nIt's sort of quaint, really. Like meeting a time traveller.\n\nAre you one of those crusty old commies like my quasirelative Dave \nWald\n(http://www.sanjosepeace.org/mediagallery/album.php?aid=8)? If you are\nyounger than thirty or so you should be aware that you may not \nactually be\na socialist, but a larval conservative: the process by which a young\nsocialist becomes and old capitalist is widely known.\n\nPeace and Freedom!\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "No, I meant out of touch with reality.\n\nSent from my iPhone\n\nOn May 19, 2009, at 1:32 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Really?\n\nI have never met a libertarian who claims that the government issues\nmoney\nor that theft is OK when performed by the government.\n\nI'd be more than happy to talk to such a creature, just to see how \nits\nmind works (or should that be \"how its 'mind' 'works'\").\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "That's funny. We say the same things about libertarians.\n\nSent from my iPhone\n\nOn May 19, 2009, at 1:13 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "'tends to'.\n\nOnce in a while you run into a leftist who is not completely out \nof\ntouch\nwith reality. Not too often.\n\nActually, that's not completely fair. Many leftists are in fact in\ntouch\nenough with reality to carry on their daily lives. But if you talk\nto one\noften enough you will find that he believes stuff that just \nain't so\n(like, the government issues money or theft is OK when it is\nperformed by\nlegal process, things like that).\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "I'm a democratic socialist and a member of the US Communist\nparty. I\nalso do not believe in God. It doesn't affect me one way or the\nother\nthat Wolfe is my opposite number on these positions, because his\nstories are still very, very awesome.\n\nGood literature transcends factionalism.\n\nLane\n\nSent from my iPhone\n\nOn May 19, 2009, at 9:47 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "Actually, \"Wolfe is pro-gun\" has the ring of truth to it, as \ndoes\n\"Wolfe\nis a fiscal conservative\". He has his point of view on things.\nPeople who\nagree with him generally have no trouble seeing it.\n\nPeople who (a) like Wolfe's fiction and (b) hold political views\nvery\ndifferent from his tend to (I have noticed) jump through\ninteresting\nhoops\nwhilst explaining that Wolfe does not actually believe what\neveryone\nelse\nseems to think he does. Anything but that. They will deny it at\nlength.\nLike most things, this is amusing once it stops being annoying.\n\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "I think there is more to it than just how sneaky his propaganda\nis.\nSure,\nWolfe is propagandizing, as always---but he doesn't just\npropagandize for\na narrow segment of the political spectrum, and he rarely makes\nthings as\nblack and white and baldly allegorical as you seem to suggest.\nRather, he\nasks questions and examines the moral aspects of the range of\nanswers.\n\nAlmost by definition, an interpretation of Wolfe that keeps it\nsimple---says \"Wolfe is pro-gun,\" for example---is going to be\ninadequate,\neven if not flatly wrong.\n\nIn other words, don't lose the forest for the trees, even if\nthere\nis a\ndevil hiding in them.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Mon, 18 May 2009 22:41:30 -0500\nFrom: \"James Wynn\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Devil in a Forest" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-05-19T20:15:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Devil in a Forest", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Go over to the \"Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again) thread. I'm reserving \nthis one for actual discussions of \"The Devil in a Forest\".\n:-)\n\nJ.\n\n--------------------------------------------------" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Lane Haygood\" \nSent: Tuesday, May 19, 2009 3:10 PM\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Devil in a Forest\nI am. I became a Marxist during law school when I studied critical legal \ntheory. It's an outgrowth of my abiding interest in German Idealism, \nphenomenology and Continental philosophy in general. In my practice as a \nlawyer (for the State) I apply the principles of critical criminology (a \nla Willem Bonger) to criminal prosecution, using the law and the power of \ncollective society to bring about social justice. The economics of the \nsituation are central to my thinking and my practice.\n\nBut, I realize that my viewpoint is not somehow privileged or right by \nfiat. I understand you and your position, and while I don't share it, I \ncan't begrudge you your own choices. Politically, this is the beauty of \ndemocracy.\n\nSent from my iPhone\n\nOn May 19, 2009, at 2:09 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So do you just say and titter at each other or do you have some examples\n(you will note that I gave two examples of what I was talking about)?\n\nAre you really a member of CPUSA, Lane? I thought that they were all \ngone,\nGus Hall fucked off to North Korea when the Russian money was cut off.\n\nIt's sort of quaint, really. Like meeting a time traveller.\n\nAre you one of those crusty old commies like my quasirelative Dave Wald\n(http://www.sanjosepeace.org/mediagallery/album.php?aid=8)? If you are\nyounger than thirty or so you should be aware that you may not actually \nbe\na socialist, but a larval conservative: the process by which a young\nsocialist becomes and old capitalist is widely known.\n\nPeace and Freedom!\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "No, I meant out of touch with reality.\n\nSent from my iPhone\n\nOn May 19, 2009, at 1:32 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Really?\n\nI have never met a libertarian who claims that the government issues\nmoney\nor that theft is OK when performed by the government.\n\nI'd be more than happy to talk to such a creature, just to see how its\nmind works (or should that be \"how its 'mind' 'works'\").\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "That's funny. We say the same things about libertarians.\n\nSent from my iPhone\n\nOn May 19, 2009, at 1:13 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "'tends to'.\n\nOnce in a while you run into a leftist who is not completely out of\ntouch\nwith reality. Not too often.\n\nActually, that's not completely fair. Many leftists are in fact in\ntouch\nenough with reality to carry on their daily lives. But if you talk\nto one\noften enough you will find that he believes stuff that just ain't so\n(like, the government issues money or theft is OK when it is\nperformed by\nlegal process, things like that).\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "I'm a democratic socialist and a member of the US Communist\nparty. I\nalso do not believe in God. It doesn't affect me one way or the\nother\nthat Wolfe is my opposite number on these positions, because his\nstories are still very, very awesome.\n\nGood literature transcends factionalism.\n\nLane\n\nSent from my iPhone\n\nOn May 19, 2009, at 9:47 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "Actually, \"Wolfe is pro-gun\" has the ring of truth to it, as does\n\"Wolfe\nis a fiscal conservative\". He has his point of view on things.\nPeople who\nagree with him generally have no trouble seeing it.\n\nPeople who (a) like Wolfe's fiction and (b) hold political views\nvery\ndifferent from his tend to (I have noticed) jump through\ninteresting\nhoops\nwhilst explaining that Wolfe does not actually believe what\neveryone\nelse\nseems to think he does. Anything but that. They will deny it at\nlength.\nLike most things, this is amusing once it stops being annoying.\n\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "I think there is more to it than just how sneaky his propaganda\nis.\nSure,\nWolfe is propagandizing, as always---but he doesn't just\npropagandize for\na narrow segment of the political spectrum, and he rarely makes\nthings as\nblack and white and baldly allegorical as you seem to suggest.\nRather, he\nasks questions and examines the moral aspects of the range of\nanswers.\n\nAlmost by definition, an interpretation of Wolfe that keeps it\nsimple---says \"Wolfe is pro-gun,\" for example---is going to be\ninadequate,\neven if not flatly wrong.\n\nIn other words, don't lose the forest for the trees, even if\nthere\nis a\ndevil hiding in them.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Mon, 18 May 2009 22:41:30 -0500\nFrom: \"James Wynn\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Devil in a Forest" } ] }, { "message_id": "<50586EEE2CA14862AA7A038867E0B211@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-05-19T20:25:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "<002BF131-691F-4247-B56E-19C9D86BDA6D@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You can say that \"Well, we live in a society, and that's just the burden \nthat rich people will have to bear to live in it with us. Fine. The Wall \nStreet Journal has an article yesterday by Art Laffer on what the \nresponse of rich people is to that ultimatum.\nhttp://online.wsj.com/article/SB124260067214828295.html\nThey leave.\nJust as the pilgrims left when Wat set up shop in the forest." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Adam sez: And yet, I see very few millionaires moving to Mogadishu.\nWhy do you suppose that is?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Because the people there do not respect the integrity of private property?\n\nYou will find millionaires hiding out in the Bahamas. And many millionaires \nhave left the \"more equitable\" welfare state of the U.K. for the \"less fair\" \nU.S. and Ireland. The flight of load-bearing citizens from NYC and \nCalifornia are test-tube examples of what happens when you increase benefits \nfor all on the backs of a voting minority.\n\nThere is another reason America is not (yet) Mogadishu. V?clav Havel said \nthat it's easy to get a Communist society from a Capitalist one. It's as \neasy as getting seafood from an exotic fish aquarium. You just boil the the \naquarium. It's harder to go the other way. Those calling for increased \nsocial benefits from government are currently benefiting from a society that \nhas (relatively) eschewed those things in the past. They are essentially \nliving off the principle of an inheritance.\nPeople talk about how much Europeans *love* their free health care and \neducation. But educated people there are quite anxious to come to the U.S. \nanyway. Why? Limited opportunity. It's not uncommon for Europeans to take \ntheir free Ph.Ds and go to work as waiters. It's not \"How many millionaires \nare leaving?\" The tradesmen (the rich) didn't leave the village in \"The \nDevil in a Forest\". The question is \"How many new ones are coming? Is the \nrate of new ones being created here increasing or decreasing?\" " } ] }, { "message_id": "<879267.44436.qm@web50710.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-05-19T20:28:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Devil in a Forest", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "--- On Mon, 5/18/09, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nI'm grateful for this discussion, because when I read\ntDiaF I thought it\nwas just a quaint, but obvious, morality tale. Now, I\nrealize that it isn't\nso \"on the nose\" at all. It's actually a quite\nexquisite bit of propaganda\n(unlike say \"Atlas Shrugged\"). Truly masterful\npropaganda is one where the\naudience doesn't realize it's being propagandized." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Really good propaganda will have people denying that it is\npropaganda." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It depends on what you mean by \"good\". I suppose you could\nsay that a really \"good\" thief or murderer doesn't get\ncaught, but I think the quotation marks are appropriate.\n\nSome propaganda helps bring about many deaths. The\nkind that people are describing in /The Devil in a Forest/\n(which I haven't read) is presumably far less harmful, but\nI still prefer political arguments with the cards on the\ntable." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I find it very interesting that many of the people who\ndisagree with\nWolfe's politics argue that it is not there." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "While a number of others know it's there but disagree\nwith it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Socialism is, when it comes\ndown to it, a process of pretending that the World is\ndifferent from the way it actually is." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There are lots of -isms and -ities in that category.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<392892.71083.qm@web180201.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "John Smith", "address": "jsmith2627 at att.net" }, "date": "2009-05-19T20:33:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Devil in a Forest", "in_reply_to": "<20090519175338.EHMQ8364.eastrmmtao105.cox.net@eastrmimpo02.cox.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It may be written for teens, but from the discussion here, I need to go back and read it again. It seems to have many layers. I must have missed 90% of the meaning.\n\nBest wishes,\n\nJack" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Tue, 5/19/09, James B. Jordan wrote:\nFrom: James B. Jordan \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Devil in a Forest\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Tuesday, May 19, 2009, 1:53 PM\nAt 09:30 AM 5/19/2009, you wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think there is more to it than just how sneaky his\npropaganda is. Sure, Wolfe is propagandizing, as\nalways---but he doesn't just propagandize for a narrow\nsegment of the political spectrum, and he rarely makes\nthings as black and white and baldly allegorical as you seem\nto suggest. Rather, he asks questions and examines the moral\naspects of the range of answers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To be sure. And remember, tDiaF is written for teens, not\nadults. I doubt if there is any teen fiction anywhere that\ndoes not try to educate in some direction.\n\nIn fact, I doubt if there is any fiction anywhere that does\nnot come from some perspective, and therefore can be said to\npropagandize for that perspective.\n\nFor instance, I don't think Wolfe wrote the Severian\nquintet in order to propagandize, but it is certainly the\ncase that he is presenting the notion that resurrection and\na new world can only come on the other side of very serious\ndestruction and judgment, brought about in response to\nserious malfeasance; and that it is the God who sent the\nTheoanthropos long ago who does this kind of thing. It's\nnot a Santa-claus cozy liberal Christianity, but it is a\nChristian viewpoint. A \"severe Christian\" who\nwrites a story about serious matters is just going to write\nin this manner.\n\nFWIW\n\nNutria\n\n\n\nJames B. Jordan\nDirector, Biblical Horizons\nBox 1096\nNiceville, FL 32588\nhttp://www.biblicalhorizons.com\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9ABFD473-EF4F-44FA-8C53-9A140080E64F@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-05-19T20:36:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "<50586EEE2CA14862AA7A038867E0B211@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 19, 2009, at 3:25 PM, James Wynn wrote:\n\nBecause the people there do not respect the integrity of private \nproperty?\n\nYou will find millionaires hiding out in the Bahamas. And many \nmillionaires have left the \"more equitable\" welfare state of the \nU.K. for the \"less fair\" U.S. and Ireland. The flight of load- \nbearing citizens from NYC and California are test-tube examples of \nwhat happens when you increase benefits for all on the backs of a \nvoting minority." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Can one not make the case that societies in which people DO respect \nthe integrity of private property are the result of those in which \nbenefits for all are increased on the backs of a voting minority?\n\nBasically: the difference between a mostly functional police force and \na full-on social-services safety-net state is one of degree, not \nkind. And I hold that both those states are preferable to Somalia.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<10067.67.142.130.18.1242765830.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-05-19T20:43:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "<2BCC6FAA-905B-4A04-BFAE-817E0EDE9BD8@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Let me explain what I mean by consensual and non-consensual:\n\nThe government wants you to pay taxes, which they are going to spend on\nwhatever. You or I may approve of everything they spend it on, or we may\napprove of some of it, or we may approve of none of it. No matter: we must\npay. If we do not, legal processes will be begun against us, and we may be\nforced to pay fines, or sent to prison or even (if we are extremely\nunlucky) killed.\n\nWhat I would like you (or someone) to explain to me is how this process\ncan be described as consensual. It seems to me much more like extortion by\nthreat of violence.\n\nI think that there are legitimate uses for tax money: you mention some of\nthem (I don't think I would include public education among them, I don't\nthink that the government should be involved too much in educating\npeople), which are important enough that people should be forced to pay\nfor them. I think that this practice should be kept to a strict minimum,\nand I would never distort reality to the extent that I would describe it\nas voluntary. It is an exercise of force.\n\nPerhaps the word voluntary is better than consensual.\n\nIt is good and public spirited of you to pay your taxes voluntarily. But\nit's not like you really have an option.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 19, 2009, at 2:27 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Please do explain how consensual taxation works: I am all ears." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This one's easy.\n\nThe government provides services I find beneficial, such as police and\nfire protection, maintained roads, public education, and so forth.\n\nOn balance, the amount I'm paying for those services seems broadly\nfair. Sure, there are inefficiences--waste, corruption, places money\nis spent where I think it shouldn't be and things that don't get\nfunded that I think should be--but I am much more in favor of it than\nI would be of a zero-taxation Hobbesian war of all against all. I\nlack the ruthlessness (not to mention physical conditioning) necessary\nto survive for long in *that* world.\n\nTherefore, taxation is, at least for me, consensual. Sure, that\ndoesn't mean I don't think it can improve--that's why I vote on local\ntaxation-related ballot initiatives, for instance--but it represents\nsomething much closer to my ideal state than its absence would.\n\nAdam\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9716.67.142.130.18.1242765867.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-05-19T20:44:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Devil in a Forest", "in_reply_to": "<4A130AED.5050505@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, let's see. I just voted for a tax increase. I have helped elect\npeople who raised taxes, because they said they would raise taxes. As a\nresult, I will pay more taxes. I want to pay more taxes.\n\nWhy? Because it's a deal. Because my city is broke. Because I believe in\nthe public good. Because I'm not rich.\n\n\"Consent.\" It's not just the theme of a teen sci-fi novel.\n\n\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Tue, 19 May 2009 15:27:02 -0400 (EDT)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nSubject: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: <13409.67.142.130.18.1242761222.squirrel at brunians.org>\nContent-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It is only theft if it isn't consensual.\n\n-----Correct.\n\nThe mistake that Socialists\nmake is when they remove the consent.\n\n-----That's a mistake no matter who makes it. Again, there is this\npersistent belief that socialism denies consent to the governed. Don't\nconfuse it with communism." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 02:22:14PM -0400, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nPlease do explain how consensual taxation works: I am all ears." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Voluntary communism, like you find in monastaries, is something that I\nactually appreciate and strongly approve of.\n\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 090518-0, 05/18/2009\nTested on: 5/19/2009 3:39:26 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<39E300DB-8C95-4715-BDF9-74D1B823F060@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-05-19T20:46:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "<10067.67.142.130.18.1242765830.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 19, 2009, at 3:43 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nLet me explain what I mean by consensual and non-consensual:\n\nThe government wants you to pay taxes, which they are going to spend \non\nwhatever. You or I may approve of everything they spend it on, or we \nmay\napprove of some of it, or we may approve of none of it. No matter: \nwe must\npay. If we do not, legal processes will be begun against us, and we \nmay be\nforced to pay fines, or sent to prison or even (if we are extremely\nunlucky) killed.\n\nWhat I would like you (or someone) to explain to me is how this \nprocess\ncan be described as consensual. It seems to me much more like \nextortion by\nthreat of violence." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is my choice to go live somewhere else without these restrictions, \nif I like.\n\nLike Mogadishu.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2D85DC7E1002442C9FFC385EBA1BB3A0@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-05-19T20:47:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "<9ABFD473-EF4F-44FA-8C53-9A140080E64F@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Basically: the difference between a mostly functional police force and a \nfull-on social-services safety-net state is one of degree, not kind. And \nI hold that both those states are preferable to Somalia." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There are a remarkable number of false dichotomies in this short blurb.\nWelfare states engage in far more than police service. If you were to \ndeclare that large cities should only provide a police force, fire fighters, \nand road maintenance, you'd find yourself voting in lock-step with Josh. So \nput aside those as a justification.\nIf you really believe that a \"full-on social-services safety-net state\" is \nimportant you should be happy to fund it to the same degree as your fellow \ncitizens and laborers. I agree that such a system could not be compared to \n\"robbing from the rich to give to the poor.\"\n\nJ.\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370905191348w255b5f18ic401923d2afbf8d5@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-05-19T20:48:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "<10067.67.142.130.18.1242765830.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 1:43 PM, wrote:\nThe government wants you to pay taxes, which they are going to spend on\nwhatever. You or I may approve of everything they spend it on, or we may\napprove of some of it, or we may approve of none of it. No matter: we must\npay. If we do not, legal processes will be begun against us, and we may be\nforced to pay fines, or sent to prison or even (if we are extremely\nunlucky) killed.\n\nWhat I would like you (or someone) to explain to me is how this process\ncan be described as consensual. It seems to me much more like extortion by\nthreat of violence." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's not very complicated, actually.\n\nOne chooses to be a member of a society. If one does not like that\nsociety, one leaves. If one chooses to remain, one has agreed to\n\"play\" by the rules of that society's \"game.\" (Note: the US is not like\nthe CCCP, where people needed permission to leave, and even then\nwere stripped of most-to-all their possessions when doing so.)\n\nThe advantage of a democratic \"game\" is that the rules can be\nchanged to suit the people \"playing.\" Nobody will always get all\nthe rules they want - that's the art of the compromise.\n\nAs it happens, one of the rules by which we choose to \"play\" is\ntaxation. If you don't like it, strongly enough, you are encouraged\nto go live in Somalia." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1555.67.142.130.18.1242766308.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-05-19T20:51:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Devil in a Forest", "in_reply_to": "<879267.44436.qm@web50710.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good in this context means 'well (or competently) done'.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Mon, 5/18/09, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I'm grateful for this discussion, because when I read\ntDiaF I thought it\nwas just a quaint, but obvious, morality tale. Now, I\nrealize that it isn't\nso \"on the nose\" at all. It's actually a quite\nexquisite bit of propaganda\n(unlike say \"Atlas Shrugged\"). Truly masterful\npropaganda is one where the\naudience doesn't realize it's being propagandized." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Really good propaganda will have people denying that it is\npropaganda." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It depends on what you mean by \"good\". I suppose you could\nsay that a really \"good\" thief or murderer doesn't get\ncaught, but I think the quotation marks are appropriate.\n\nSome propaganda helps bring about many deaths. The\nkind that people are describing in /The Devil in a Forest/\n(which I haven't read) is presumably far less harmful, but\nI still prefer political arguments with the cards on the\ntable." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I find it very interesting that many of the people who\ndisagree with\nWolfe's politics argue that it is not there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "While a number of others know it's there but disagree\nwith it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Socialism is, when it comes\ndown to it, a process of pretending that the World is\ndifferent from the way it actually is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There are lots of -isms and -ities in that category.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4311.67.142.130.18.1242766516.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-05-19T20:55:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "<39E300DB-8C95-4715-BDF9-74D1B823F060@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is my choice to go live somewhere else without these restrictions,\nif I like.\n\nLike Mogadishu." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn has dealt well with this straw man.\n\nYou may, of course, go on repeating it as you desire.\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<0FD102BE21B444869F78FF66A49BB72F@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-05-19T20:55:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Original Devil in a Forest (non-political)", "in_reply_to": "<392892.71083.qm@web180201.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It may be written for teens, but from the discussion here, I need to go \nback and read it again. It seems to have many layers. I must have missed \n90% of the meaning.\nJack" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I recommend you take the opportunity to refresh you memory of the Robin Hood \nballads and stories. The abbe' is Friar Tuck. Joselyn is Maid Marian. Mother \nCloot the evil prioress who bled Robin Hood to death. I don't mean there is \na one-to-one connection, of course. Wolfe twisted them all around the way he \ndoes. But the old narratives are there.\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<15038.67.142.130.18.1242766720.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-05-19T20:58:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "<2D85DC7E1002442C9FFC385EBA1BB3A0@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Basically: the difference between a mostly functional police force and\na full-on social-services safety-net state is one of degree, not kind.\nAnd I hold that both those states are preferable to Somalia." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There are a remarkable number of false dichotomies in this short blurb.\nWelfare states engage in far more than police service. If you were to\ndeclare that large cities should only provide a police force, fire\nfighters, and road maintenance, you'd find yourself voting in lock-step\nwith Josh. So put aside those as a justification." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If you really believe that a \"full-on social-services safety-net state\" is\nimportant you should be happy to fund it to the same degree as your fellow\ncitizens and laborers. I agree that such a system could not be compared to\n\"robbing from the rich to give to the poor.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Indeed.\n\nThe Mormons have an excellent (and voluntary) social welfare system, which\nthey pay for themselves, by tithing. I have often thought that something\nof the kind could be adapted for people who would like this kind of\nsecurity and don't want to necessarily be Mormon.\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4239.67.142.130.18.1242766852.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-05-19T21:00:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370905191348w255b5f18ic401923d2afbf8d5@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Tell us where money comes from, again, Dan'l. Now that the shock of seeing\nsomeone as intelligent as you say something that bogus is wearing off, I\nfind it incredibly amusing on a number of levels.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 1:43 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The government wants you to pay taxes, which they are going to spend on\nwhatever. You or I may approve of everything they spend it on, or we may\napprove of some of it, or we may approve of none of it. No matter: we\nmust\npay. If we do not, legal processes will be begun against us, and we may\nbe\nforced to pay fines, or sent to prison or even (if we are extremely\nunlucky) killed.\n\nWhat I would like you (or someone) to explain to me is how this process\ncan be described as consensual. It seems to me much more like extortion\nby\nthreat of violence." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's not very complicated, actually.\n\nOne chooses to be a member of a society. If one does not like that\nsociety, one leaves. If one chooses to remain, one has agreed to\n\"play\" by the rules of that society's \"game.\" (Note: the US is not like\nthe CCCP, where people needed permission to leave, and even then\nwere stripped of most-to-all their possessions when doing so.)\n\nThe advantage of a democratic \"game\" is that the rules can be\nchanged to suit the people \"playing.\" Nobody will always get all\nthe rules they want - that's the art of the compromise.\n\nAs it happens, one of the rules by which we choose to \"play\" is\ntaxation. If you don't like it, strongly enough, you are encouraged\nto go live in Somalia.\n\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370905191401w3e7cfd18h3684f3ec0f25bc5e@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-05-19T21:01:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "<15038.67.142.130.18.1242766720.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 1:58 PM, wrote:\nThe Mormons have an excellent (and voluntary) social welfare system, which\nthey pay for themselves, by tithing. I have often thought that something\nof the kind could be adapted for people who would like this kind of\nsecurity and don't want to necessarily be Mormon." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is a nice fallacy. It isn't that the Mormon system doesn't work, but\nthat there's no coercion is a fallacy." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370905191402u4755cefdpb5e984087b761e83@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-05-19T21:02:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "<4239.67.142.130.18.1242766852.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Money can come from any number of places, but ultimately it needs the\nauthority of something like government to make it work. You're smart\nenough to know that.\n\nMeanwhile, by attacking that strawman you've avoided responding to\nmy post below." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 2:00 PM, wrote:\nTell us where money comes from, again, Dan'l. Now that the shock of seeing\nsomeone as intelligent as you say something that bogus is wearing off, I\nfind it incredibly amusing on a number of levels.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 1:43 PM, ? wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The government wants you to pay taxes, which they are going to spend on\nwhatever. You or I may approve of everything they spend it on, or we may\napprove of some of it, or we may approve of none of it. No matter: we\nmust\npay. If we do not, legal processes will be begun against us, and we may\nbe\nforced to pay fines, or sent to prison or even (if we are extremely\nunlucky) killed.\n\nWhat I would like you (or someone) to explain to me is how this process\ncan be described as consensual. It seems to me much more like extortion\nby\nthreat of violence." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's not very complicated, actually.\n\nOne chooses to be a member of a society. If one does not like that\nsociety, one leaves. If one chooses to remain, one has agreed to\n\"play\" by the rules of that society's \"game.\" (Note: the US is not like\nthe CCCP, where people needed permission to leave, and even then\nwere stripped of most-to-all their possessions when doing so.)\n\nThe advantage of a democratic \"game\" is that the rules can be\nchanged to suit the people \"playing.\" Nobody will always get all\nthe rules they want - that's the art of the compromise.\n\nAs it happens, one of the rules by which we choose to \"play\" is\ntaxation. If you don't like it, strongly enough, you are encouraged\nto go live in Somalia.\n\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<12135.67.142.130.18.1242766981.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-05-19T21:03:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370905191401w3e7cfd18h3684f3ec0f25bc5e@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 1:58 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The Mormons have an excellent (and voluntary) social welfare system,\nwhich they pay for themselves, by tithing. I have often thought that\nsomething of the kind could be adapted for people who would like this kind\nof security and don't want to necessarily be Mormon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is a nice fallacy. It isn't that the Mormon system doesn't work, but\nthat there's no coercion is a fallacy." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You have to tithe to be a member of the Church, sure.\n\nWhat is voluntary is choosing to be a member of the Church.\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-05-19T21:04:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370905191348w255b5f18ic401923d2afbf8d5@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Adam sez:\nIt is my choice to go live somewhere else without\nthese restrictions, if I like. Like Mogadishu." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l sez:\nIf you don't like it, strongly enough, you are encouraged\nto go live in Somalia." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure where some people got the idea that Somalia was founded as a \nLibertarian/Liberal society, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't.\n\nIf the rich take your offer and go to a tax-haven state, then your \"full-on \nsocial-services safety-net state\" collapse or see a drastic decrease in \nservices. You will also find it hard to get the load-bearing citizens back. \nActually, it probably won't matter because you'll probably leave as well for \nplaces with more opportunity.\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<13808.67.142.130.18.1242767174.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-05-19T21:06:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370905191402u4755cefdpb5e984087b761e83@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, that's not the funny one.\n\nThe one where the government creates money, you know how it goes.\n\nThe other has been dealt with in other posts.\n\nDo the funny thing again, I love it when you do that.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Money can come from any number of places, but ultimately it needs the\nauthority of something like government to make it work. You're smart\nenough to know that.\n\nMeanwhile, by attacking that strawman you've avoided responding to\nmy post below.\n\nOn Tue, May 19, 2009 at 2:00 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Tell us where money comes from, again, Dan'l. Now that the shock of\nseeing\nsomeone as intelligent as you say something that bogus is wearing off, I\nfind it incredibly amusing on a number of levels.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 1:43 PM, ? wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "The government wants you to pay taxes, which they are going to spend\non\nwhatever. You or I may approve of everything they spend it on, or we\nmay\napprove of some of it, or we may approve of none of it. No matter: we\nmust\npay. If we do not, legal processes will be begun against us, and we\nmay\nbe\nforced to pay fines, or sent to prison or even (if we are extremely\nunlucky) killed.\n\nWhat I would like you (or someone) to explain to me is how this\nprocess\ncan be described as consensual. It seems to me much more like\nextortion\nby\nthreat of violence." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It's not very complicated, actually.\n\nOne chooses to be a member of a society. If one does not like that\nsociety, one leaves. If one chooses to remain, one has agreed to\n\"play\" by the rules of that society's \"game.\" (Note: the US is not like\nthe CCCP, where people needed permission to leave, and even then\nwere stripped of most-to-all their possessions when doing so.)\n\nThe advantage of a democratic \"game\" is that the rules can be\nchanged to suit the people \"playing.\" Nobody will always get all\nthe rules they want - that's the art of the compromise.\n\nAs it happens, one of the rules by which we choose to \"play\" is\ntaxation. If you don't like it, strongly enough, you are encouraged\nto go live in Somalia.\n\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6250.67.142.130.18.1242767266.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-05-19T21:07:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Adam sez:\nIt is my choice to go live somewhere else without\nthese restrictions, if I like. Like Mogadishu." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dan'l sez:\nIf you don't like it, strongly enough, you are encouraged\nto go live in Somalia." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not sure where some people got the idea that Somalia was founded as a\nLibertarian/Liberal society, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is easier than coming up with good arguments?\n\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-05-19T21:09:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "<2D85DC7E1002442C9FFC385EBA1BB3A0@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 19, 2009, at 3:47 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nIf you really believe that a \"full-on social-services safety-net \nstate\" is important you should be happy to fund it to the same \ndegree as your fellow citizens and laborers. I agree that such a \nsystem could not be compared to \"robbing from the rich to give to \nthe poor.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of course, \"fund it to the same degree,\" and \"robbing from the rich to \ngive to the poor,\" each themselves admit multiple interpretations.\n\nOne way of \"funding it to the same degree\" would be to demand a flat \namount from each citizen.\n\nThis strikes most people as impractical, as, if each contribution were \nlimited to that which could be squeezed from the poorest citizen, \nthere would be effectively no revenue to pay for the service.\n\nOne way would be to impose the same percentage fee on each citizen, \nregardless of income. This is usually what Libertarians claim to \nlike. However, such a plan ignores the (I think fairly important) \nobservation that the marginal value of money decreases the more of it \nyou have.\n\nBy that I simply mean--and I suspect that I am not alone on this list-- \nthat I've lived on $15,000, $30,000, and $60,000 a year. One would \nexpect from the flat-percentage argument that the difference in \nlifestyle comfort between $30,000 and $60,000 would have been double \nthe difference between $15,000 and $30,000. This is, in my \nexperience, manifestly not so--indeed, quite the opposite. The \ndifference between $30,000 and $60,000 was very minor compared to the \ndifference between $15,000 and $30,000. That implies that the \nmarginal value to me of each dollar between $15,000 and $30,000 was \nmore than double the marginal value of each dollar between $30,000 and \n$60,000.\n\n( By way of example: at $15K, I shared a run-down house with several \nother people, ate ramen and similarly-priced but unexciting \nfood--\"eating out\" meant fast food or very, very cheap restaurants, \nand even so, was done very sparingly--and very rarely bought books, \nand almost never new books. At $30K, I and my partner had a rented \nhouse of our own, ate meat when we felt like it and occasionally ate \nout at restaurants with metal cutlery, and went to a new-book \nbookstore a couple times a month. At $60K, we owned (for values of \nownership meaning \"had a mortgage on\") a house similar to the one we \nhad rented, ate meat when we felt like it and could go eat at nicer \nrestaurants if and when we wanted, and went to the bookstore a little \nbit more often. )\n\nHence a third way would be to impose a tax that causes the same amount \nof inconvenience at all levels of income. This is approximately what \nprogressive income taxes attempt to do. I would argue that current US \ntaxation levels are somewhere between the second and third models.\n\n\"Robbing from the rich to give to the poor,\" is simply the same \nargument stood on its head, of course. Does taxation go from \n\"legitimate\" to \"robbery\" at a value derived from the absolute dollar \nvalue of the tax, from a percentage of income across all income \nranges, or to a degree of inconvenience across all income ranges?\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<80BACAF9-E5FD-4DF0-8A62-A1091E66E3D4@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-05-19T21:14:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On May 19, 2009, at 4:04 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nAdam sez:\nIt is my choice to go live somewhere else without\nthese restrictions, if I like. Like Mogadishu." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dan'l sez:\nIf you don't like it, strongly enough, you are encouraged\nto go live in Somalia." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not sure where some people got the idea that Somalia was founded \nas a Libertarian/Liberal society, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am merely offering Somalia as the closest approach to the ideal of a \ncomplete lack of functional civil society and to a Hobbesian all- \nagainst-all of which I am currently aware.\n\nI don't think it was founded as a Libertopia. I think it does \napproximate the end state of a society in which there is not a \ngovernment.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-05-19T21:18:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "<80BACAF9-E5FD-4DF0-8A62-A1091E66E3D4@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I am merely offering Somalia as the closest approach to the ideal of a \ncomplete lack of functional civil society and to a Hobbesian all- \nagainst-all of which I am currently aware.\nI don't think it was founded as a Libertopia. I think it does \napproximate the end state of a society in which there is not a \ngovernment." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Libertarians and classical Liberals do not call for the withering away of \nthe state. That's some other political philosophy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From an L/L stand-point, I could reasonably compare Somalia's economy-based \non piracy to a Welfare State system. But then Gene Wolfe already did." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "J. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<15887.67.142.130.18.1242767952.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-05-19T21:19:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "<80BACAF9-E5FD-4DF0-8A62-A1091E66E3D4@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Adam writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 19, 2009, at 4:04 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Adam sez:\nIt is my choice to go live somewhere else without\nthese restrictions, if I like. Like Mogadishu." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Dan'l sez:\nIf you don't like it, strongly enough, you are encouraged\nto go live in Somalia." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm not sure where some people got the idea that Somalia was founded\nas a Libertarian/Liberal society, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I am merely offering Somalia as the closest approach to the ideal of a\ncomplete lack of functional civil society and to a Hobbesian all-\nagainst-all of which I am currently aware." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But we (the people on the other side of the argument) are none of us\narguing for a complete lack of functional civil society and a Hobbesian\nall-against-all. Were you under the impression that we were?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think it was founded as a Libertopia. I think it does\napproximate the end state of a society in which there is not a\ngovernment." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps someday you will choose to address the arguments that have\nactually been made." } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0905191421je8c6b9en98f43d4be3b19057@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-05-19T21:21:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "<80BACAF9-E5FD-4DF0-8A62-A1091E66E3D4@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Somalia is to libertarianism what *1984* is to communitarianism. A useful\nthing to keep in mind, but little else. In real life, communitarian states\nare as apt to resemble Germany, and libertarian states as apt to resemble\nHong Kong." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 5:14 PM, Adam Thornton wrote:\n\nOn May 19, 2009, at 4:04 PM, James Wynn wrote:\n\n Adam sez:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It is my choice to go live somewhere else without\nthese restrictions, if I like. Like Mogadishu." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dan'l sez:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "If you don't like it, strongly enough, you are encouraged\nto go live in Somalia." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm not sure where some people got the idea that Somalia was founded as a\nLibertarian/Liberal society, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I am merely offering Somalia as the closest approach to the ideal of a\ncomplete lack of functional civil society and to a Hobbesian all-against-all\nof which I am currently aware.\n\nI don't think it was founded as a Libertopia. I think it does approximate\nthe end state of a society in which there is not a government.\n\nAdam\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4A1322D6.8060003@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-05-19T21:21:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0905191421je8c6b9en98f43d4be3b19057@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The key term here is not \"voluntary\" and it's not \"consensual.\" It's \"consent\"---as in \"the consent of the governed.\" It's nothing like what you are thinking of.\n\nGoogle that phrase. Some kinds of education must be self-motivated." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Tue, 19 May 2009 16:43:50 -0400 (EDT)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: <10067.67.142.130.18.1242765830.squirrel at brunians.org>\nContent-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1\n\nLet me explain what I mean by consensual and non-consensual:\n\nThe government wants you to pay taxes, which they are going to spend on\nwhatever. You or I may approve of everything they spend it on, or we may\napprove of some of it, or we may approve of none of it. No matter: we must\npay. If we do not, legal processes will be begun against us, and we may be\nforced to pay fines, or sent to prison or even (if we are extremely\nunlucky) killed.\n\nWhat I would like you (or someone) to explain to me is how this process\ncan be described as consensual. It seems to me much more like extortion by\nthreat of violence.\n\nI think that there are legitimate uses for tax money: you mention some of\nthem (I don't think I would include public education among them, I don't\nthink that the government should be involved too much in educating\npeople), which are important enough that people should be forced to pay\nfor them. I think that this practice should be kept to a strict minimum,\nand I would never distort reality to the extent that I would describe it\nas voluntary. It is an exercise of force.\n\nPerhaps the word voluntary is better than consensual.\n\nIt is good and public spirited of you to pay your taxes voluntarily. But\nit's not like you really have an option." } ] }, { "message_id": "<2B016B21-C372-4918-9B46-4860CE2E5DAE@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-05-19T21:29:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "<15887.67.142.130.18.1242767952.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 19, 2009, at 4:19 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\n\nBut we (the people on the other side of the argument) are none of us\narguing for a complete lack of functional civil society and a \nHobbesian\nall-against-all. Were you under the impression that we were?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't see how you can get from the position that all taxation is \ntheft to the position that some governments are legitimate without \ngiving up on the first one.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4A132584.3070407@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-05-19T21:32:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "<2B016B21-C372-4918-9B46-4860CE2E5DAE@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Somalia's economy is not \"based on\" piracy. It was based on fishing and herding before global shipping killed all the fish.\n\nRead newspapers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Tue, 19 May 2009 16:18:52 -0500\nFrom: \"James Wynn\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=\"iso-8859-1\";\n\treply-type=response" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I am merely offering Somalia as the closest approach to the ideal of a \ncomplete lack of functional civil society and to a Hobbesian all- \nagainst-all of which I am currently aware.\nI don't think it was founded as a Libertopia. I think it does \napproximate the end state of a society in which there is not a \ngovernment." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n\nLibertarians and classical Liberals do not call for the withering away of \nthe state. That's some other political philosophy.\n\nFrom an L/L stand-point, I could reasonably compare Somalia's economy-based \non piracy to a Welfare State system. But then Gene Wolfe already did.\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<266474.14287.qm@web50701.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-05-19T21:33:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "<4A132584.3070407@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd be interested in a citation to Washington's writings\nfor the quotation from his writings. It's widely quoted\nat Google Books with various differences in wording, but\nthe first hit I can find is from 1878 (in the Congressional\nRecord).\n\nThere are no hits on \"Washington government\nforce fire servant master\" at yale.edu, which includes \"The\nPapers of George Washington\".\n\nhttp://avalon.law.yale.edu/subject_menus/washpap.asp\n\nBut that may not mean anything, as some books date\nthe quotation to 1785, and the Yale collection has nothing\nthat early.\n\nThis site (which seems to support a right to gun\nownership, but I just glanced at it) calls the quotation\n\"bogus\", along with many others attributed to the Founding\nFathers.\n\nhttp://www.guncite.com/gc2ndbog.html\n\nThe quotation from Josh Geller appears to go back to Max\nWeber and to be a compressed, indeed oversimplified, way\nof saying the government decides what violence is\nlegitimate (including self-defense, which is legitimate\nviolence not carried out by the government).\n\nBy the way, who is Josh Geller? (When I ask it that way,\nthe initials are a little disturbing.)\n\nJerry Friedman" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Tue, 5/19/09, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org \nMao was a perceptive guy about some\nthings. Power and how to use it, for\ninstance. Decent poet also, I'm told.\n\nNot a very nice man, but pretty smart.\n\nIf three people as different as Mao, Washington and Geller\nagree about\nsomething, I'd say it's time to sit up and take notice.\n\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If Mao said it, it must be true.\n\n------------------------------\n\nDate: Mon, 18 May 2009 21:32:54 -0400 (EDT)\nThis does not change the nature of the interaction,\nDan'l. I do understand\nwhy one would want to deny the reality of the thing,\nof course.\n\nGovernment is force. It is a dangerous servant and a\nfierce master.\n\n-- George Washington\n\nPolitical power comes out of the barrel of a gun.\n\n-- Mao Zedong\n\nGovernment is the monopoly on legitimate violence.\n\n-- Josh Geller" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5C1B93D3-D134-459D-9E3D-ED03614A7BD7@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-05-19T21:35:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "<266474.14287.qm@web50701.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 19, 2009, at 4:33 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nBy the way, who is Josh Geller? (When I ask it that way,\nthe initials are a little disturbing.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If he is standing naked at the edge of a cliff, I for one don't want \nto....oh, wait, that'd be HR anyway.\n\n(Block? Giger?)\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1401.67.142.130.18.1242768973.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-05-19T21:36:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "<2B016B21-C372-4918-9B46-4860CE2E5DAE@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I said this in a recent post. I will expand upon it.\n\nTaxation, the extortion of money from the citizens, is permissible for\nthings that are necessary. My list of necessary things includes the\nmilitary and things related to the military, infrastructure and certain\nkinds of research. I insist that the involuntary nature of taxation be\nexplicit and resist the inevitable attempts at expansion of the\nthings-to-be-paid-for-by-taxation.\n\nOf course, as a good Jeffersonian, I believe that from time to time it is\nnecessary to shoot the bastards and start over. We're not quite there yet.\n\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 19, 2009, at 4:19 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But we (the people on the other side of the argument) are none of us\narguing for a complete lack of functional civil society and a\nHobbesian\nall-against-all. Were you under the impression that we were?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't see how you can get from the position that all taxation is\ntheft to the position that some governments are legitimate without\ngiving up on the first one.\n\nAdam\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4290.67.142.130.18.1242769467.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-05-19T21:44:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "<4A132584.3070407@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Somalia's economy is not \"based on\" piracy. It was based on fishing and\nherding before global shipping killed all the fish." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The fishing went away because Somalia, lacking a government, lacks a Coast\nGaurd (see my post about necessary things which may be paid for by\ntaxation) and therefore every industrial fishing boat in the world went\nthere to glom on their fish.\n\nI think that bits of herding still go on.\n\nSomalia has been a pit for centuries. How did the Italians do running it?\nI've been in favor of giving large chunks of Africa back to the colonial\npowers for some time now.\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<113560E2-E507-413C-A901-BB9F39294E35@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-05-19T21:48:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "<1401.67.142.130.18.1242768973.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 19, 2009, at 4:36 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nI said this in a recent post. I will expand upon it.\n\nTaxation, the extortion of money from the citizens, is permissible for\nthings that are necessary." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah. So \"extortion\" can, in your world, be a good thing, or at least a \nnecessary evil.\n\nThis was confusing to me.\n\nI prefer to consider taxation neither theft nor extortion, but rather \nmore like dues: something I must pay in order to retain a member in \ngood standing of a club whose benefits I enjoy. I can at any point \nchoose to leave that club; if at that I insist on sticking around \nsomewhere I'm still reaping its benefits, then I may find myself \nliable to experience unpleasant consequences, like being thrown in the \npokey.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9C6B0298-D857-46D7-80F4-0E74FA6F4720@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-05-19T21:51:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "<1401.67.142.130.18.1242768973.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So your democratically-elected government gets to serve at the \npleasure of a small but violent minority? I understand frustration \nwith graft and waste, but calling for rebellion against a lawfully- \nseated state for carrying out the will of society?\n\nAt some point, you realize the value in cooperation, community and \nshared society. All civilization is based on this premise, that \ntogether a people can accomplish what one alone cannot.\n\nThe substitution of civil government/society with a profit driven \nmarket removes this universally-agreed as beneficial goal of \ncooperation and replaced it with a unilateral goal of profit. As \nwealth cannot be created ex nihilo, profit must arise from a producer \ntaking more than a product is worth. This is only possible on a market \nwhere supply and demand are manipulated against the interest of the \nconsumer.\n\nThus, the market is merely the latest iteration of the master-slave \nrelation. It is the battlefield of class conflict. How does calling \ntaxes imposed by a lawful sovereign equal theft, but the creation of \nprofit not equal extortion by a self-selected, undemocratic oligarchy?\n\nIndividuals and individual liberty are only meaningful insofar as a \ncivil legal system ensures they are protected. Authoritarian abuses by \nright and left ignore this. Free markets actively surpress it by \neconomic manipulation.\n\nTell me again why I should kill lawfully-seated ministers of the civil \ngovernment to preserve the rights of the people exploiting me?\n\nSent from my iPhone" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 19, 2009, at 4:36 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nI said this in a recent post. I will expand upon it.\n\nTaxation, the extortion of money from the citizens, is permissible for\nthings that are necessary. My list of necessary things includes the\nmilitary and things related to the military, infrastructure and \ncertain\nkinds of research. I insist that the involuntary nature of taxation be\nexplicit and resist the inevitable attempts at expansion of the\nthings-to-be-paid-for-by-taxation.\n\nOf course, as a good Jeffersonian, I believe that from time to time \nit is\nnecessary to shoot the bastards and start over. We're not quite \nthere yet.\n\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On May 19, 2009, at 4:19 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "But we (the people on the other side of the argument) are none of us\narguing for a complete lack of functional civil society and a\nHobbesian\nall-against-all. Were you under the impression that we were?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't see how you can get from the position that all taxation is\ntheft to the position that some governments are legitimate without\ngiving up on the first one.\n\nAdam\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<10065.67.142.130.18.1242769896.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-05-19T21:51:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "<266474.14287.qm@web50701.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'd be interested in a citation to Washington's writings\nfor the quotation from his writings. It's widely quoted\nat Google Books with various differences in wording, but\nthe first hit I can find is from 1878 (in the Congressional\nRecord).\n\nThere are no hits on \"Washington government\nforce fire servant master\" at yale.edu, which includes \"The\nPapers of George Washington\".\n\nhttp://avalon.law.yale.edu/subject_menus/washpap.asp\n\nBut that may not mean anything, as some books date\nthe quotation to 1785, and the Yale collection has nothing\nthat early.\n\nThis site (which seems to support a right to gun\nownership, but I just glanced at it) calls the quotation\n\"bogus\", along with many others attributed to the Founding\nFathers.\n\nhttp://www.guncite.com/gc2ndbog.html\n\nThe quotation from Josh Geller appears to go back to Max\nWeber and to be a compressed, indeed oversimplified, way\nof saying the government decides what violence is\nlegitimate (including self-defense, which is legitimate\nviolence not carried out by the government)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "By the way, who is Josh Geller? (When I ask it that way,\nthe initials are a little disturbing.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Late twentieth - early twenty-first century aphorist.\n\n\"Never postulate conspiracy when stupidity will explain the known facts.\"\n\n-- Geller's Second Law\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<11399.67.142.130.18.1242770216.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-05-19T21:56:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "<113560E2-E507-413C-A901-BB9F39294E35@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I calls them like I sees them. I prefer to look straight at things and\nname them plainly, rather than search for more comforting, euphemistic\nways to express plain reality. And I don't think that taxation is\nsomething we should be really comfortable with, even if a certain amount\nis necessary.\n\nBy the way, I devote zero effort to evading taxes, and even keep good\ntrack of the cash money I make so that I can accurately pay my quarterly\ntaxes.\n\nExtortion makes the world go round....\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 19, 2009, at 4:36 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I said this in a recent post. I will expand upon it.\n\nTaxation, the extortion of money from the citizens, is permissible for\nthings that are necessary." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ah. So \"extortion\" can, in your world, be a good thing, or at least a\nnecessary evil.\n\nThis was confusing to me.\n\nI prefer to consider taxation neither theft nor extortion, but rather\nmore like dues: something I must pay in order to retain a member in\ngood standing of a club whose benefits I enjoy. I can at any point\nchoose to leave that club; if at that I insist on sticking around\nsomewhere I'm still reaping its benefits, then I may find myself\nliable to experience unpleasant consequences, like being thrown in the\npokey.\n\nAdam\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7128DCCE-0E7C-4291-A0FA-D5855BC96A02@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-05-19T22:00:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "<11399.67.142.130.18.1242770216.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 19, 2009, at 4:56 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nI calls them like I sees them. I prefer to look straight at things and\nname them plainly, rather than search for more comforting, euphemistic\nways to express plain reality." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah, but here is our fundamental disagreement: I don't think \n\"extortion\" is any closer to \"plain reality\" than \"dues.\"\n\nI am, in fact, arguing that the reverse is true. But then I believe \nwe probably, at heart, disagree on \"plain reality.\"\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<14123.67.142.130.18.1242770628.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-05-19T22:03:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "<9C6B0298-D857-46D7-80F4-0E74FA6F4720@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're familiar with Thomas Jefferson, right Lane? They taught you about\nhim in law school or college or something, I am sure, and you are just\npretending to be ignorant for rhetorical effect.\n\nGo on with you: I am feeling favorably disposed towards you now and have\nno real desire to explain Jeffersonianism to you, almost certainly falling\ninto one or more of your lawyerly traps along the way. I argue for fun,\nnot blood and would prefer not to engage with a professional unless you\ntie one lobe of your brain behind your back or something.\n\n\n\n...[W]hat country can preserve its liberties, if it's rulers are not\nwarned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of\nresistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as\nto the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost\nin a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from\ntime to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants.\nIt is its natural manure.\n\n-- Thomas Jefferson\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So your democratically-elected government gets to serve at the\npleasure of a small but violent minority? I understand frustration\nwith graft and waste, but calling for rebellion against a lawfully-\nseated state for carrying out the will of society?\n\nAt some point, you realize the value in cooperation, community and\nshared society. All civilization is based on this premise, that\ntogether a people can accomplish what one alone cannot.\n\nThe substitution of civil government/society with a profit driven\nmarket removes this universally-agreed as beneficial goal of\ncooperation and replaced it with a unilateral goal of profit. As\nwealth cannot be created ex nihilo, profit must arise from a producer\ntaking more than a product is worth. This is only possible on a market\nwhere supply and demand are manipulated against the interest of the\nconsumer.\n\nThus, the market is merely the latest iteration of the master-slave\nrelation. It is the battlefield of class conflict. How does calling\ntaxes imposed by a lawful sovereign equal theft, but the creation of\nprofit not equal extortion by a self-selected, undemocratic oligarchy?\n\nIndividuals and individual liberty are only meaningful insofar as a\ncivil legal system ensures they are protected. Authoritarian abuses by\nright and left ignore this. Free markets actively surpress it by\neconomic manipulation.\n\nTell me again why I should kill lawfully-seated ministers of the civil\ngovernment to preserve the rights of the people exploiting me?\n\nSent from my iPhone\n\nOn May 19, 2009, at 4:36 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I said this in a recent post. I will expand upon it.\n\nTaxation, the extortion of money from the citizens, is permissible for\nthings that are necessary. My list of necessary things includes the\nmilitary and things related to the military, infrastructure and\ncertain\nkinds of research. I insist that the involuntary nature of taxation be\nexplicit and resist the inevitable attempts at expansion of the\nthings-to-be-paid-for-by-taxation.\n\nOf course, as a good Jeffersonian, I believe that from time to time\nit is\nnecessary to shoot the bastards and start over. We're not quite\nthere yet.\n\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On May 19, 2009, at 4:19 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "But we (the people on the other side of the argument) are none of us\narguing for a complete lack of functional civil society and a\nHobbesian\nall-against-all. Were you under the impression that we were?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I don't see how you can get from the position that all taxation is\ntheft to the position that some governments are legitimate without\ngiving up on the first one.\n\nAdam\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2352.67.142.130.18.1242770756.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-05-19T22:05:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "<7128DCCE-0E7C-4291-A0FA-D5855BC96A02@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Reality is what doesn't go away when you stop believing in it.\n\n-- PKD (I think).\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 19, 2009, at 4:56 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I calls them like I sees them. I prefer to look straight at things and\nname them plainly, rather than search for more comforting, euphemistic\nways to express plain reality." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ah, but here is our fundamental disagreement: I don't think\n\"extortion\" is any closer to \"plain reality\" than \"dues.\"\n\nI am, in fact, arguing that the reverse is true. But then I believe\nwe probably, at heart, disagree on \"plain reality.\"\n\nAdam\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-05-19T22:06:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Adam, in \"The Devil in a Forest\", Wolfe presents the issue moral terms. If \nI'm benefiting from a service more than my neighbor, and also paying less \nfor that service than my neighbor, why is that less shameful than just going \nto his door and demanding the money?\nOkay. Here are your three options:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Adam sez:\nOf course, \"fund it to the same degree,\" and \"robbing from the rich to \ngive to the poor,\" each themselves admit multiple interpretations.\nOne way of \"funding it to the same degree\" would be to demand a flat \namount from each citizen." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is actually is the most fair way. But, that's asking way too much \nfairness from a society of Fallen human beings. On the other hand, if the \npoor don't like it, I suppose they could move to Mogadishu." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "One way would be to impose the same percentage fee on each citizen, \nregardless of income. This is usually what Libertarians claim to like. \nHowever, such a plan ignores the (I think fairly important) observation \nthat the marginal value of money decreases the more of it you have." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Marginal value decreases for whom? Not to the people who work to earn it. \nYou're argument divorces the amount of money made from the people who \ncreated it. It assumes that a guy making $25K a year is exactly like the guy \nmaking $250K a year except that one happens to make less. It ignores the \nrisks the second guy took in capital, time, and effort in order to create \nthat wealth. It also ignores the fact that the first guy gets far more \nBENEFIT from non-essential government services that the second guy. Some \nwould say the differences therefore balance out so that both should pay the \nsame rate.\n\nThe real reason has nothing to do with marginal values of money. It has to \ndo with practicality. These services are proposed to get a majority of the \nvoting public to like them. So you give out benefits to a larger number and \nhave a smaller number pay the freight. No majority will not vote for 95% of \ngovernment services if they are seen as fee-for-service. You probably \nwouldn't. David Stackhoff implied that he found the idea increased taxes \nappealing because he didn't think he'd pay the bulk of them (or any of \nthem?)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hence a third way would be to impose a tax that causes the same amount of \ninconvenience at all levels of income. This is approximately what \nprogressive income taxes attempt to do." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How does a progressive tax provide \"the same amount of inconvenience at all \nlevels of income\"? Or do you mean \"we'll tax you more if you have more and \nwe'll do the same to other guy who has more too\"? What if we taxed every one \nmaking $35K-$50K at 95% and everyone else at 15%. Is that equally logical? \nBut we don't just tax based on income either, do we? Because this is \ndemocracy in action. The law-makers cut breaks for certain voting blocks \n(home-owners, parents, college students, and retirees) while busting others \n(cigarette smokers and people who drive for a living)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Robbing from the rich to give to the poor,\" is simply the same argument \nstood on its head, of course. Does taxation go from \"legitimate\" to \n\"robbery\" at a value derived from the absolute dollar value of the tax, \nfrom a percentage of income across all income ranges, or to a degree of \ninconvenience across all income ranges?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How can I describe a progressive tax? Say five citizens get together to fund \na new well. Hmmm...they could all pay the same amount to dig it, or they \ncould all pay the same percentage of their wealth, OR....they could vote \nthat Moe here--who also has a lake on his property so he doesn't need the \nwell---will pay for half of it because, after all, he can \"afford it\". How \nis that different from a two foxes and a hen voting on what to have for \nsupper?\n\nJ.\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4A132D76.3090700@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-05-19T22:06:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, Mao and Washington would have found much in common." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "--- On Tue, 5/19/09, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org \nMao was a perceptive guy about some\nthings. Power and how to use it, for\ninstance. Decent poet also, I'm told.\n\nNot a very nice man, but pretty smart.\n\nIf three people as different as Mao, Washington and Geller\nagree about\nsomething, I'd say it's time to sit up and take notice.\n\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "If Mao said it, it must be true.\n\n------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4A132DEA.20907@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-05-19T22:08:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "<4A132D76.3090700@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of course you have." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Tue, 19 May 2009 17:44:27 -0400 (EDT)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: <4290.67.142.130.18.1242769467.squirrel at brunians.org>\nContent-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Somalia's economy is not \"based on\" piracy. It was based on fishing and\nherding before global shipping killed all the fish." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n\nThe fishing went away because Somalia, lacking a government, lacks a Coast\nGaurd (see my post about necessary things which may be paid for by\ntaxation) and therefore every industrial fishing boat in the world went\nthere to glom on their fish.\n\nI think that bits of herding still go on.\n\nSomalia has been a pit for centuries. How did the Italians do running it?\nI've been in favor of giving large chunks of Africa back to the colonial\npowers for some time now." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4A132EA7.2030908@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-05-19T22:11:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "<4A132DEA.20907@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I always try to keep that in mind when I read your posts." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 8\nDate: Tue, 19 May 2009 17:51:36 -0400 (EDT)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: <10065.67.142.130.18.1242769896.squirrel at brunians.org>\nContent-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "By the way, who is Josh Geller? (When I ask it that way,\nthe initials are a little disturbing.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n\nLate twentieth - early twenty-first century aphorist.\n\n\"Never postulate conspiracy when stupidity will explain the known facts.\"\n\n-- Geller's Second Law" } ] }, { "message_id": "<14132.67.142.130.18.1242771132.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-05-19T22:12:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "<4A132D76.3090700@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yeah, Mao and Washington would have found much in common." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They wouldn't have disagreed about the nature of political power, that is\nfor sure.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Tue, 5/19/09, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "From: brunians at brunians.org \nMao was a perceptive guy about some\nthings. Power and how to use it, for\ninstance. Decent poet also, I'm told.\n\nNot a very nice man, but pretty smart.\n\nIf three people as different as Mao, Washington and Geller\nagree about\nsomething, I'd say it's time to sit up and take notice.\n\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "If Mao said it, it must be true.\n\n------------------------------" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 090519-0, 05/19/2009\nTested on: 5/19/2009 6:06:48 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6290.67.142.130.18.1242771317.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-05-19T22:15:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "<4A132EA7.2030908@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It almost sounds like you have something personal against me. I am not\nsure why that should be. As far as I know, we have never met.\n\nThis is all good clean fun to me.\n\nKeep it gay!\n\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I always try to keep that in mind when I read your posts.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 8\nDate: Tue, 19 May 2009 17:51:36 -0400 (EDT)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: <10065.67.142.130.18.1242769896.squirrel at brunians.org>\nContent-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "By the way, who is Josh Geller? (When I ask it that way,\nthe initials are a little disturbing.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Late twentieth - early twenty-first century aphorist.\n\n\"Never postulate conspiracy when stupidity will explain the known facts.\"\n\n-- Geller's Second Law\n\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 090519-0, 05/19/2009\nTested on: 5/19/2009 6:11:52 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2009-05-19T22:17:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "<1401.67.142.130.18.1242768973.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 17:36:13 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)\n\nI said this in a recent post. I will expand upon it.\n\nTaxation, the extortion of money from the citizens, is permissible for\nthings that are necessary. My list of necessary things includes the\nmilitary and things related to the military, infrastructure and certain\nkinds of research. I insist that the involuntary nature of taxation be\nexplicit and resist the inevitable attempts at expansion of the\nthings-to-be-paid-for-by-taxation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nI don't want to meddle to much on this discussion but your statements make me curious.\n\n \n\n\n\"My list of necessary things includes the" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "military and things related to the military, infrastructure and certain\nkinds of research.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nYOUR list. Basically you're OK with extortion of money from its citizens by the government AS LONG as it according to what YOU think is necessary. This means that everyone in this list, from what I gather, is OK with the extortion, the only thing that really changes is the degree of said extortion or, more realisticaly, as long as the money goes into what each one of us thinks it should go. This amounts to no real change in the nature of the political system itself whatsoever, just a change on the degree to each a state taxes and applies the money.\n\n \n\nThe problem resumes itself than to WHO gets to decide where the money goes? My guess is through voting, which is the system that is already in place. That entails no change in the nature of government at all. In the end thats what the US already has. It's up to you people to decide in how much do you want to be robbed and on what should the robbers put the money in." } ] }, { "message_id": "<0C649F1C-5A4E-4B1D-A8A7-1DBDE9254FD0@comcast.net>", "from": { "name": "Steven", "address": "mcquaryq at comcast.net" }, "date": "2009-05-19T22:57:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370905191401w3e7cfd18h3684f3ec0f25bc5e@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On May 19, 2009, at 5:01 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nThe Mormons have an excellent (and voluntary) social welfare \nsystem, which\nthey pay for themselves, by tithing. I have often thought that \nsomething\nof the kind could be adapted for people who would like this kind of\nsecurity and don't want to necessarily be Mormon." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was born and raised Mormon, left in adolescence. They shovel a \nheap of shame on any monies they pay out as welfare. A heaping \npile. Not many of them have the stomach to accept under those \nconditions.\n\nSteven Bowen\nhttp://bowenfinearts.com/" } ] }, { "message_id": "<626774.15696.qm@web50710.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-05-19T22:58:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Devil in a Forest", "in_reply_to": "<1555.67.142.130.18.1242766308.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Tue, 5/19/09, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nGood in this context means 'well (or competently) done'." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure. To restate what I said more concisely, propaganda\nis one of those things that I don't prefer to be done\ncompetently.\n\nJerry Friedman" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "--- On Mon, 5/18/09, brunians at brunians.org\n\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I'm grateful for this discussion, because\nwhen I read\ntDiaF I thought it\nwas just a quaint, but obvious, morality\ntale. Now, I\nrealize that it isn't\nso \"on the nose\" at all. It's actually a\nquite\nexquisite bit of propaganda\n(unlike say \"Atlas Shrugged\"). Truly\nmasterful\npropaganda is one where the\naudience doesn't realize it's being\npropagandized." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Really good propaganda will have people denying\nthat it is\npropaganda." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It depends on what you mean by \"good\". I suppose\nyou could\nsay that a really \"good\" thief or murderer doesn't\nget\ncaught, but I think the quotation marks are\nappropriate.\n\nSome propaganda helps bring about many deaths." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The\nkind that people are describing in /The Devil in a\nForest/\n(which I haven't read) is presumably far less harmful,\nbut\nI still prefer political arguments with the cards on\nthe\ntable." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I find it very interesting that many of the people\nwho\ndisagree with\nWolfe's politics argue that it is not there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "While a number of others know it's there but disagree\nwith it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Socialism is, when it comes\ndown to it, a process of pretending that the World\nis\ndifferent from the way it actually is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There are lots of -isms and -ities in that category.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6A6E9DB2-F98D-4FB2-B783-95A98F2FC944@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-05-19T23:09:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 19, 2009, at 5:06 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nMarginal value decreases for whom? Not to the people who work to \nearn it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's exactly what I was saying: for the people who work to earn it. \nAt least, for *me*.\n\nI was arguing from my own experience: the marginal value of the \n$30,000 between an income of $30K and $60K was much, much less than of \nthe $15,000 between $15K and $30K." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You're argument divorces the amount of money made from the people \nwho created it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, in my case, yeah, it's the same guy. Modulo Heraclitus and \nstuff. So that factor is controlled for." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It assumes that a guy making $25K a year is exactly like the guy \nmaking $250K a year except that one happens to make less." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes and no. I mean, sure, there is a reason I eventually started \ngetting paid more money: I was doing jobs that required skills that \nwere rarer, or at least more valued by the people willing to employ \nme, and I had acquired those skills through experience and training. \nBut on the other hand, I'm still in some important sense the me I was \ntwenty years ago.\n\nBut I'm not arguing that I shouldn't be making more money; I'm arguing \nthat taxation taking 25% of the $60,000 of the top-earning me in my \nexample hurts a lot less than taking 15% of the $15,000 I was making \nas low-earning me. (Now, to be fair, I am nowhere near sure these \nrepresent even approximate actual tax rates when those were about my \nincome levels, and I'm not about to go digging through my tax records \nto find out.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It ignores the risks the second guy took in capital, time, and \neffort in order to create that wealth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How so? Those risks are compensated in the increased pay, aren't \nthey? I mean, by your argument, I should be doing four times the work \nto generate four times the income, right? I'm certainly not. My job \nnow is *much* more interesting and much less unpleasant than when I \nwas making crap wages. Jobs that involve serious physical labor--and \nare thus, in many senses, the hardest--tend to also be at the bottom \nof the pay scale. And sure, it took a lot of time and learning to get \nhere, but the time spent *still* beat digging ditches." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It also ignores the fact that the first guy gets far more BENEFIT \nfrom non-essential government services that the second guy." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Some more, sure: I rode a lot more public transport when I was poorer \nthan I do now. Far more, not so sure. I probably walk or ride a bike \naround in public parks *more* now since--again, in my experience-- \nhigher-paying jobs tend to come with more flexible schedules. There \nare a lot of nonessential services I don't use, and never did, but I \ndon't begrudge the fact that I'm funding them: some people DO get \nvalue out of their services and there's value to me in those people \nbeing happier." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Some would say the differences therefore balance out so that both \nshould pay the same rate." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And I don't.\n\nShould Moe pay for half the well? I don't know. What's the benefit \nto him of building the well at all? What are the downsides to him if \nthe well is not built? Should the well's costs be recouped through a \nper-liter charge on its usage, with the costs repaid to the financiers \nof the project, or is it actually going to be presented as a common \ngood? If the latter, how much does Moe value his participation in the \nsociety that he and his neighbors constitute? If the answer is \"not \nthat much,\" does he get to be sad if he then has to provide his own \nfire protection if he withdraws from their society?\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<273409710905191626q49f7f5deq1e4fc09e584743a@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-05-19T23:26:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "<6A6E9DB2-F98D-4FB2-B783-95A98F2FC944@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I currently make above $80,000. I have made a little more than that in the\nrecent past, and MUCH MUCH less than that in the more distant past.\n\nI'm certainly not speaking for everyone, but what I do now is MUCH MUCH\neasier and more rewarding than what I did when I earned $7.50 an hour, or\n$12.00 an hour.\n\nI think it's a sad myth that those who make less money work less hard than\nthose who 'generate' wealth. Some who hold that position have undoubtedly\nhelp menial jobs. Many have not. I think you must be disqualified from\nmaking a statement like that unless you've worked a labor intensive low wage\njob.\n\nI know that is an old canard. But I've found it true in my case.\n\nAnd I've certainly 'earned' my way to where I am. I am from a very low\nincome family, with no breaks given to me, and only through my own dumb luck\nand ingenuity have I reached my current position of relative economic\nsecurity. However, I consensually pay my taxes, and appreciate the need of\nsociety to deal with all of it's members in an equitable and humanitarian\nway. When I was a child, I certainly benefitied from the Welfare system.\nMy mom was off and on it for some time (not because she didn't work hard,\nbut because time were tough, and she had a hard time as a single mother\nproviding for me). Now that I'm the one paying into the system, I'm\ngrateful to be able to help people who were once in my position. Why should\nI not want to pay into the system that helped me get where I am today? If\nnot for those welfare programs, I would not be able to be where I am, nor\nable to pay back into the system.\n\nThere is no system in place in the small town I grew up in for Private\nEducation. Where would that come from? Would I have to rely on a Religious\neducation? What alternative system are you proposing that wouldn't require\na lifetimes worth of retooling/reinventing/locating private funding for that\nwouldn't hamper an entire generation of future 'wealth creators?'\n\nAnd this worship of the free market makes my skin crawl. It is a great\nsystem, with a lot going for it. But it is as morally bankrupt and corrupt\nas the government, or more so. How is the Free Market any less oriented\ntoward robbery?\n\nIn any event, I'm not going to be able to argue this in any cohernt fashion\nat this point, so I should just back out." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 4:09 PM, Adam Thornton wrote:\nOn May 19, 2009, at 5:06 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Marginal value decreases for whom? Not to the people who work to earn it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's exactly what I was saying: for the people who work to earn it. At\nleast, for *me*.\n\nI was arguing from my own experience: the marginal value of the $30,000\nbetween an income of $30K and $60K was much, much less than of the $15,000\nbetween $15K and $30K.\n\n You're argument divorces the amount of money made from the people who\ncreated it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, in my case, yeah, it's the same guy. Modulo Heraclitus and stuff.\n So that factor is controlled for.\n\n It assumes that a guy making $25K a year is exactly like the guy making\n$250K a year except that one happens to make less." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes and no. I mean, sure, there is a reason I eventually started getting\npaid more money: I was doing jobs that required skills that were rarer, or\nat least more valued by the people willing to employ me, and I had acquired\nthose skills through experience and training. But on the other hand, I'm\nstill in some important sense the me I was twenty years ago.\n\nBut I'm not arguing that I shouldn't be making more money; I'm arguing that\ntaxation taking 25% of the $60,000 of the top-earning me in my example hurts\na lot less than taking 15% of the $15,000 I was making as low-earning me.\n (Now, to be fair, I am nowhere near sure these represent even approximate\nactual tax rates when those were about my income levels, and I'm not about\nto go digging through my tax records to find out.)\n\n It ignores the risks the second guy took in capital, time, and effort in\norder to create that wealth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How so? Those risks are compensated in the increased pay, aren't they? I\nmean, by your argument, I should be doing four times the work to generate\nfour times the income, right? I'm certainly not. My job now is *much* more\ninteresting and much less unpleasant than when I was making crap wages.\n Jobs that involve serious physical labor--and are thus, in many senses, the\nhardest--tend to also be at the bottom of the pay scale. And sure, it took\na lot of time and learning to get here, but the time spent *still* beat\ndigging ditches.\n\n It also ignores the fact that the first guy gets far more BENEFIT from\nnon-essential government services that the second guy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Some more, sure: I rode a lot more public transport when I was poorer than\nI do now. Far more, not so sure. I probably walk or ride a bike around in\npublic parks *more* now since--again, in my experience--higher-paying jobs\ntend to come with more flexible schedules. There are a lot of nonessential\nservices I don't use, and never did, but I don't begrudge the fact that I'm\nfunding them: some people DO get value out of their services and there's\nvalue to me in those people being happier.\n\n Some would say the differences therefore balance out so that both should\npay the same rate." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And I don't.\n\nShould Moe pay for half the well? I don't know. What's the benefit to him\nof building the well at all? What are the downsides to him if the well is\nnot built? Should the well's costs be recouped through a per-liter charge\non its usage, with the costs repaid to the financiers of the project, or is\nit actually going to be presented as a common good? If the latter, how much\ndoes Moe value his participation in the society that he and his neighbors\nconstitute? If the answer is \"not that much,\" does he get to be sad if he\nthen has to provide his own fire protection if he withdraws from their\nsociety?\n\nAdam\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<488327.96667.qm@web50703.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-05-20T00:05:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "<273409710905191626q49f7f5deq1e4fc09e584743a@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "--- On Tue, 5/19/09, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nI'd be interested in a citation to Washington's\nwritings\nfor the quotation from his writings. It's widely\nquoted\nat Google Books with various differences in wording,\nbut\nthe first hit I can find is from 1878 (in the\nCongressional\nRecord).\n\nThere are no hits on \"Washington government\nforce fire servant master\" at yale.edu, which includes\n\"The Papers of George Washington\".\n\nhttp://avalon.law.yale.edu/subject_menus/washpap.asp\n\nBut that may not mean anything, as some books date\nthe quotation to 1785, and the Yale collection has\nnothing that early.\n\nThis site (which seems to support a right to gun\nownership, but I just glanced at it) calls the\nquotation\n\"bogus\", along with many others attributed to the\nFounding\nFathers.\n\nhttp://www.guncite.com/gc2ndbog.html\n\nThe quotation from Josh Geller appears to go back to\nMax\nWeber and to be a compressed, indeed oversimplified,\nway\nof saying the government decides what violence is\nlegitimate (including self-defense, which is\nlegitimate\nviolence not carried out by the government)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "By the way, who is Josh Geller? (When I ask it\nthat way,\nthe initials are a little disturbing.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Late twentieth - early twenty-first century aphorist.\n\n\"Never postulate conspiracy when stupidity will explain the\nknown facts.\"\n\n-- Geller's Second Law" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You sure he's not someone who modifies quotations\nand puts his name after them? That one looks like,\n\"You have attributed conditions to villainy that simply\nresult from stupidity,\" from Heinlein's \"Logic of Empire\".\nWikipedia traces the idea back to Goethe's /Werther/,\n\"...misunderstandings and neglect create more confusion\nin this world than trickery and malice. At any rate, the\nlast two are certainly much less frequent.\"\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_Razor\n\nI don't think I'd trust Geller on quotations from George\nWashington either.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<11519.67.142.130.18.1242778047.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-05-20T00:07:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "<0C649F1C-5A4E-4B1D-A8A7-1DBDE9254FD0@comcast.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I'd think you'd have to minimize the shame-heaping aspects if you\nwanted to adapt the system for general use, but that doesn't mean it can't\nbe done.\n\nDoesn't change the principal, I don't think.\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 19, 2009, at 5:01 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The Mormons have an excellent (and voluntary) social welfare\nsystem, which\nthey pay for themselves, by tithing. I have often thought that\nsomething\nof the kind could be adapted for people who would like this kind of\nsecurity and don't want to necessarily be Mormon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I was born and raised Mormon, left in adolescence. They shovel a\nheap of shame on any monies they pay out as welfare. A heaping\npile. Not many of them have the stomach to accept under those\nconditions.\n\nSteven Bowen\nhttp://bowenfinearts.com/\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3113.67.142.130.18.1242778269.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-05-20T00:11:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Devil in a Forest", "in_reply_to": "<626774.15696.qm@web50710.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're entitled to your opinion. I personally think of it as an art and\nthe great propagandists as artists.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Tue, 5/19/09, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Good in this context means 'well (or competently) done'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sure. To restate what I said more concisely, propaganda\nis one of those things that I don't prefer to be done\ncompetently.\n\nJerry Friedman" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "--- On Mon, 5/18/09, brunians at brunians.org\n\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I'm grateful for this discussion, because\nwhen I read\ntDiaF I thought it\nwas just a quaint, but obvious, morality\ntale. Now, I\nrealize that it isn't\nso \"on the nose\" at all. It's actually a\nquite\nexquisite bit of propaganda\n(unlike say \"Atlas Shrugged\"). Truly\nmasterful\npropaganda is one where the\naudience doesn't realize it's being\npropagandized." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Really good propaganda will have people denying\nthat it is\npropaganda." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It depends on what you mean by \"good\". I suppose\nyou could\nsay that a really \"good\" thief or murderer doesn't\nget\ncaught, but I think the quotation marks are\nappropriate.\n\nSome propaganda helps bring about many deaths." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The\nkind that people are describing in /The Devil in a\nForest/\n(which I haven't read) is presumably far less harmful,\nbut\nI still prefer political arguments with the cards on\nthe\ntable." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I find it very interesting that many of the people\nwho\ndisagree with\nWolfe's politics argue that it is not there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "While a number of others know it's there but disagree\nwith it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Socialism is, when it comes\ndown to it, a process of pretending that the World\nis\ndifferent from the way it actually is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "There are lots of -isms and -ities in that category.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1AE40EDD-C9B2-4261-8FF9-020604F92100@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-05-20T00:12:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "<11519.67.142.130.18.1242778047.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 19, 2009, at 7:07 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nWell, I'd think you'd have to minimize the shame-heaping aspects if \nyou\nwanted to adapt the system for general use, but that doesn't mean it \ncan't\nbe done." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Isn't that the engine that drives the whole thing?\n\nSince I know you have a tendency to narrowly-construe if it suits your \nargument, I will amplify:\n\nTraditional \"extortionate\" taxation uses the threat of incarceration \nand siezure of assets as the stick to drive the recalcitrant mule to \npuke up the carrot of tax revenue.\n\nThe Mormon model uses the fear of community shaming. Even I am not so \nnaive about human nature to think this will work in the absence of a \nstick of some sort. I mean, I do it myself about public radio (inter \nalia): most years, I feel like I *should* be giving my local NPR \nstation some money, but I always have an excuse for not doing it, and \nuneasy guilt isn't quite enough for me to pull out the checkbook.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1D9B3EF2ED3D43EC8B1949D8D73BE040@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-05-20T00:30:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "<6A6E9DB2-F98D-4FB2-B783-95A98F2FC944@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Adam opines\nShould Moe pay for half the well? I don't know. What's the benefit to \nhim of building the well at all? What are the downsides to him if the \nwell is not built? Should the well's costs be recouped through a \nper-liter charge on its usage, with the costs repaid to the financiers of \nthe project, or is it actually going to be presented as a common good? If \nthe latter, how much does Moe value his participation in the society that \nhe and his neighbors constitute? If the answer is \"not that much,\" does \nhe get to be sad if he then has to provide his own fire protection if he \nwithdraws from their society?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We don't have to consider those things. Neither does Moe. We are more \nnumerous than Moe. We're not negotiating with Moe. If Moe complains we'll \ndenounce him as greedy and do what we want anyway. Moe can bend over and \ntake the shaft." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It assumes that a guy making $25K a year is exactly like the guy making \n$250K a year except that one happens to make less." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes and no. I mean, sure, there is a reason I eventually started getting \npaid more money: I was doing jobs that required skills that were rarer, \nor at least more valued by the people willing to employ me, and I had \nacquired those skills through experience and training. But on the other \nhand, I'm still in some important sense the me I was twenty years ago." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You are not the same person at $60K that you were when you made $15K. You \nhave skills that you were motivated to develop in order to earn more. You \nhave a history of steady, reliable work that you were motivated to create \nout of a desire for money (not a desire for a better \"public space\"). Stop \nand consider that you are currently making more than the mean salary in this \ncountry. That didn't just fall in your lap. What if society were engineered \nso you could depend on making say...$25K per year from the get go, and \nstart taxing you more as you progress. There's a good chance your work \nhistory would be vastly different.\n\nYour claim that your 25% of $60K is less than 15% of $15K suggests you think \nyou're being over-paid.\nBut consider that you perspective might be colored by the fact that you paid \nno income tax when you made $15K, and now that you make $60K, depending on \nyour situation, you probably pay little or none as well. Someone else is \nmaking up that difference for you. Are you proud of that?\n\nOn the other hand, from then til now you almost certainly paid a significant \nSocial Security **flat tax**. What is not readily apparent is that your \nemployer pays it as well. Making the cost of just hiring you and your fellow \nemployees to be the largest expense they've taken on--which is passed on you \nas a consumer. Your welfare state is a self-justifying system, since it \nmakes it more expensive just to get started in life and makes jobs harder to \nfind.\n\n\nJ.\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<200905192033.17313.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "from": { "name": "Daniel D Jones", "address": "ddjones at riddlemaster.org" }, "date": "2009-05-20T00:33:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 16", "in_reply_to": "<4A12B961.80103@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tuesday 19 May 2009 09:51:30 David Stockhoff wrote:\nDaniel, you really don't know how things work, do you?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've managed to stay alive for over forty years, served twenty years and then \nretired from the armed forces, traveled to over thirty foreign countries, \nraised three kids, am helping to raise ten grandkids, and I've tried damn near \nanything you care to mention at least once, twice if I liked it. I think I've \ngot a pretty good clue how things work. Is there something you need some \nadvice on?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Mon, 18 May 2009\n18:05:22 -0400 From: Daniel D Jones Subject:\nRe: (urth) Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 16 To: The Urth Mailing List\n Message-ID:\n<200905181805.22952.ddjones at riddlemaster.org> Content-Type: Text/Plain;\n\ncharset=\"iso-8859-1\" On Monday 18 May 2009 17:29:58 David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "And finally, I agree with your quoted description of socialism. But it\nclearly has nothing to do with robbing anyone. Governments redistribute\nwealth all the time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Do you think that because it's done under the blessing of governmental\nauthority it's any less a taking by force than were it the act of a\nhighwayman? And the assertion that \"it's done all the time\" is quite\northogonal to the issue of whether or not it's justified." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Did you know that usury, which has been illegal since\nthe Byzantine emperors, is now legal in the US? It's called \"payday\nloans.\" They are illegal for a reason---and the government that can\ncreate them and make them legal, thus imposing and enforcing them on\nthe poor, can reverse that to create a more just system. Incrementally\nspeaking, that's socialism." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What sort of doublespeak is this? In what way did the government create\nthem? In what way is the government imposing or enforcing them on the poor?\n Are there government agents going out into neighborhoods forcing people to\ntake payday loans?\n\n\n------------------------------\n\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 090518-0, 05/18/2009\nTested on: 5/19/2009 9:51:31 AM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<11501.67.142.130.18.1242779816.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-05-20T00:36:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 16", "in_reply_to": "<200905192033.17313.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jackpot!\n\n*pulls up chair and listens*\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tuesday 19 May 2009 09:51:30 David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Daniel, you really don't know how things work, do you?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I've managed to stay alive for over forty years, served twenty years and\nthen\nretired from the armed forces, traveled to over thirty foreign countries,\nraised three kids, am helping to raise ten grandkids, and I've tried damn\nnear\nanything you care to mention at least once, twice if I liked it. I think\nI've\ngot a pretty good clue how things work. Is there something you need some\nadvice on?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Mon, 18 May 2009\n18:05:22 -0400 From: Daniel D Jones Subject:\nRe: (urth) Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 16 To: The Urth Mailing List\n Message-ID:\n<200905181805.22952.ddjones at riddlemaster.org> Content-Type: Text/Plain;\n\ncharset=\"iso-8859-1\" On Monday 18 May 2009 17:29:58 David Stockhoff\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "And finally, I agree with your quoted description of socialism. But\nit\nclearly has nothing to do with robbing anyone. Governments\nredistribute\nwealth all the time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Do you think that because it's done under the blessing of governmental\nauthority it's any less a taking by force than were it the act of a\nhighwayman? And the assertion that \"it's done all the time\" is quite\northogonal to the issue of whether or not it's justified." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Did you know that usury, which has been illegal since\nthe Byzantine emperors, is now legal in the US? It's called \"payday\nloans.\" They are illegal for a reason---and the government that can\ncreate them and make them legal, thus imposing and enforcing them on\nthe poor, can reverse that to create a more just system." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Incrementally\nspeaking, that's socialism.\n\nWhat sort of doublespeak is this? In what way did the government create\nthem? In what way is the government imposing or enforcing them on the\npoor?\n Are there government agents going out into neighborhoods forcing people\nto\ntake payday loans?\n\n\n------------------------------\n\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 090518-0, 05/18/2009\nTested on: 5/19/2009 9:51:31 AM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4A135123.3030805@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-05-20T00:38:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 16", "in_reply_to": "<11501.67.142.130.18.1242779816.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, thanks. But I suggest you try reading things that don't reinforce your existing beliefs. You may learn something." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 3\nDate: Tue, 19 May 2009 20:33:17 -0400\nFrom: Daniel D Jones \nSubject: Re: (urth) Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 16\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: <200905192033.17313.ddjones at riddlemaster.org>\nContent-Type: Text/Plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nOn Tuesday 19 May 2009 09:51:30 David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Daniel, you really don't know how things work, do you?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n\nI've managed to stay alive for over forty years, served twenty years and then \nretired from the armed forces, traveled to over thirty foreign countries, \nraised three kids, am helping to raise ten grandkids, and I've tried damn near \nanything you care to mention at least once, twice if I liked it. I think I've \ngot a pretty good clue how things work. Is there something you need some \nadvice on?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0905191742k2c9494dcpfb2796713fa32179@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-05-20T00:42:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 16", "in_reply_to": "<4A135123.3030805@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David., is the assumption you're making about Daniel's reading habits\nwarranted?\n\nI am not a fan of the argument that those who disagree with one must simply\nnot be readers. There are claims that justify that assumption, but most of\nthem are not ideological in nature." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 8:38 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nNo, thanks. But I suggest you try reading things that don't reinforce your\nexisting beliefs. You may learn something.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 3\nDate: Tue, 19 May 2009 20:33:17 -0400\nFrom: Daniel D Jones \nSubject: Re: (urth) Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 16\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: <200905192033.17313.ddjones at riddlemaster.org>\nContent-Type: Text/Plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nOn Tuesday 19 May 2009 09:51:30 David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Daniel, you really don't know how things work, do you?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I've managed to stay alive for over forty years, served twenty years and\nthen retired from the armed forces, traveled to over thirty foreign\ncountries, raised three kids, am helping to raise ten grandkids, and I've\ntried damn near anything you care to mention at least once, twice if I liked\nit. I think I've got a pretty good clue how things work. Is there\nsomething you need some advice on?\n\n\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 090519-0, 05/19/2009\nTested on: 5/19/2009 8:39:00 PM\n\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<200905192052.18366.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "from": { "name": "Daniel D Jones", "address": "ddjones at riddlemaster.org" }, "date": "2009-05-20T00:52:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tuesday 19 May 2009 17:09:43 Adam Thornton wrote:\n\"Robbing from the rich to give to the poor,\" is simply the same\nargument stood on its head, of course. Does taxation go from\n\"legitimate\" to \"robbery\" at a value derived from the absolute dollar\nvalue of the tax, from a percentage of income across all income\nranges, or to a degree of inconvenience across all income ranges?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Taxation goes from \"legitimate\" to \"robbery\" when it's taken for an \nillegitimate purpose. Government has one legitimate function - to protect the \nrights of the individual. Everything else is illegitimate and taxes for those \npurposes are robbery." } ] }, { "message_id": "<9ABE7B53-68B6-4796-8C59-D8E081A69FF7@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-05-20T00:52:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "<1D9B3EF2ED3D43EC8B1949D8D73BE040@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 19, 2009, at 7:30 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nWe don't have to consider those things. Neither does Moe. We are \nmore numerous than Moe. We're not negotiating with Moe. If Moe \ncomplains we'll denounce him as greedy and do what we want anyway. \nMoe can bend over and take the shaft." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...Except that Moe can afford better things than we can. Including \nweapons." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It assumes that a guy making $25K a year is exactly like the guy \nmaking $250K a year except that one happens to make less." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yes and no. I mean, sure, there is a reason I eventually started \ngetting paid more money: I was doing jobs that required skills \nthat were rarer, or at least more valued by the people willing to \nemploy me, and I had acquired those skills through experience and \ntraining. But on the other hand, I'm still in some important \nsense the me I was twenty years ago." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You are not the same person at $60K that you were when you made \n$15K. You have skills that you were motivated to develop in order \nto earn more. You have a history of steady, reliable work that you \nwere motivated to create out of a desire for money (not a desire for \na better \"public space\")." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If you view me-as-a-person purely as me-as-a-device-for-earning-money, \nyou may have a point. Though not, even then, a particularly good \none. To start with, that's not really been my motivation for learning \nmy skills. Sure, \"to make enough money that I can have a comfortable \nand pleasant lifestyle\" is a strpmg motivator, and I did not have that \nthing at $15K. I pretty much *did* have it at $30K. Much more of the \nmotivation is that whatever-it-is-I-have-to-do-to-maintain-that- \nminimally-pleasant-lifestyle be as non-onerous as possible.\n\nThe interesting thing is that jobs that require I *think* more and \nbetter seem to pay more than ones where I don't have to. Despite the \nfact that sitting on my ass in front of a computer screen and thinking \nis much less strenuous work than digging ditches, waiting tables, or \neven shelving books." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Stop and consider that you are currently making more than the mean \nsalary in this country. That didn't just fall in your lap. What if \nsociety were engineered so you could depend on making say...$25K \nper year from the get go, and start taxing you more as you progress. \nThere's a good chance your work history would be vastly different." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It would depend on how much I liked the life of doing nothing and \nliving in mild poverty. So, yeah, it might. On the other hand: \ngetting paid to find ways you could do the same IT tasks with much \nless expensive software is pretty fun, and shelving books isn't. \n(Yeah, I never had a *truly* menial job, and my only foodservice jobs \nwere semipro bartending (that is, tending bar for private functions-- \nit's an excellent source of beer money (and, uh, beer) in grad school, \nespecially since you're being paid a pittance but you also generally \nget to keep any tips, and there's no inventory control, so where's \nyour incentive to not give proper damn pours (which, of course, \ninfluence tips)?), which was actually pretty fun too.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Your claim that your 25% of $60K is less than 15% of $15K suggests \nyou think you're being over-paid." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, I specifically said that I didn't think I was being overpaid \na bit farther down. I'm saying that a dollar means a lot more at \n$12750 than it does at $45000.\n\nAnd certainly my current job, which largely consists of helping \nalready rich entities get even richer by saving them money they pay in \nlicense fees to various software vendors to license the tools they \nneed to perform their IT tasks, by finding them lower-cost \nalternatives and supplying glue to enable those alternatives to \nperform equivalent jobs, is worth much more to those rich entities \nthan me-shelving-books is. Much more than 4 times as much, I'm sure." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But consider that you perspective might be colored by the fact that \nyou paid no income tax when you made $15K, and now that you make \n$60K, depending on your situation, you probably pay little or none \nas well. Someone else is making up that difference for you. Are you \nproud of that?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How do I pay little or none now, and who's making up the difference? \nI lost the thread of your argument." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On the other hand, from then til now you almost certainly paid a \nsignificant Social Security **flat tax**. What is not readily \napparent is that your employer pays it as well. Making the cost of \njust hiring you and your fellow employees to be the largest expense \nthey've taken on--which is passed on you as a consumer. Your \nwelfare state is a self-justifying system, since it makes it more \nexpensive just to get started in life and makes jobs harder to find." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On the other hand, it means if I don't find a job, I don't starve in \nthe street, right? That's a trade I'll take. And as a business \nowner--yeah, been one of those too; not much fun--it's also a trade \nI'll take. As you say, I get to pass on my costs, and if I fire \nsomeone, well, I'm probably not actually condemning them to starve. \nI'll pay a bit for that conscience-salve.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7EA3E36036974D6ABDB11B334C6BFF40@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-05-20T00:55:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "<6A6E9DB2-F98D-4FB2-B783-95A98F2FC944@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I said:\nIt ignores the risks the second guy took in capital, time, and effort in \norder to create that wealth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Adam responded:\nHow so? Those risks are compensated in the increased pay, aren't they? \nI mean, by your argument, I should be doing four times the work to \ngenerate four times the income, right? I'm certainly not. My job now is \n*much* more interesting and much less unpleasant than when I was making \ncrap wages. Jobs that involve serious physical labor--and are thus, in \nmany senses, the hardest--tend to also be at the bottom of the pay scale. \nAnd sure, it took a lot of time and learning to get here, but the time \nspent *still* beat digging ditches." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And Jordan responded:\nI currently make above $80,000. I have made a little more than that in\nthe recent past, and MUCH MUCH less than that in the more distant past.\nI'm certainly not speaking for everyone, but what I do now is MUCH MUCH\neasier and more rewarding than what I did when I earned $7.50 an hour, or\n$12.00 an hour." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It sounds to me like you guys are over-paid. You should mention that your \nemployers/customers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jordan:\nI think it's a sad myth that those who make less money work less hard than\nthose who 'generate' wealth. Some who hold that position have undoubtedly\nhelp menial jobs. Many have not. I think you must be disqualified from\nmaking a statement like that unless you've worked a labor intensive low \nwage\njob." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have and I'll wager most of the people in the top 20% of wage earners \nhave. In fact, many of those are **performing** menial jobs." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jordan:\nAnd this worship of the free market makes my skin crawl. It is a great\nsystem, with a lot going for it. But it is as morally bankrupt and corrupt\nas the government, or more so. How is the Free Market any less oriented\ntoward robbery?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jordan, you say you're making over $80K per year. Have you risked bankruptcy \nto take your job? Have you sunk your retirement in your job? Because, that's \nthe sort of thing that the top 20% have done. That's the sort of thing that \npeople who employ the bottom 30% do.\n\nWe use words for all the time for things that don't exist. \"Corporation\" \n\"Government\" \"Free Market\".\nNone of these things exist. They just words for people. The Free Market is \nnot oriented toward robbery. That's ludicrous. They offer you something. You \npay them for it. If the don't deliver you can take them to court and/or \nsmear their names with future customers. But only the Government can FORCE \nyou to do anything. Only the Government cannot be sued unless they say so. \nBut that's the one you trust?\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<15789.67.142.130.18.1242781002.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-05-20T00:56:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "<9ABE7B53-68B6-4796-8C59-D8E081A69FF7@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 19, 2009, at 7:30 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "We don't have to consider those things. Neither does Moe. We are\nmore numerous than Moe. We're not negotiating with Moe. If Moe\ncomplains we'll denounce him as greedy and do what we want anyway.\nMoe can bend over and take the shaft." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...Except that Moe can afford better things than we can. Including\nweapons." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's why we're using the democratic process to steal from him. Then we\ncan send the cops after him if he still balks.\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<68E54A17-C935-4FCB-AC36-6D56232A774D@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-05-20T01:02:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "<200905192052.18366.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 19, 2009, at 7:52 PM, Daniel D Jones wrote:\nOn Tuesday 19 May 2009 17:09:43 Adam Thornton wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"Robbing from the rich to give to the poor,\" is simply the same\nargument stood on its head, of course. Does taxation go from\n\"legitimate\" to \"robbery\" at a value derived from the absolute dollar\nvalue of the tax, from a percentage of income across all income\nranges, or to a degree of inconvenience across all income ranges?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Taxation goes from \"legitimate\" to \"robbery\" when it's taken for an\nillegitimate purpose. Government has one legitimate function - to \nprotect the\nrights of the individual. Everything else is illegitimate and taxes \nfor those\npurposes are robbery." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Concisely put.\n\nWhat are the rights of the individual?\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<200905192103.49068.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "from": { "name": "Daniel D Jones", "address": "ddjones at riddlemaster.org" }, "date": "2009-05-20T01:03:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "<4A1322D6.8060003@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tuesday 19 May 2009 17:21:26 David Stockhoff wrote:\nThe key term here is not \"voluntary\" and it's not \"consensual.\" It's\n\"consent\"---as in \"the consent of the governed.\" It's nothing like what you\nare thinking of.\n\nGoogle that phrase. Some kinds of education must be self-motivated." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Google \"US Civil War\" and then come back and talk to me about \"consent of the \ngoverned.\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "<10324.67.142.130.18.1242781944.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-05-20T01:12:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "<68E54A17-C935-4FCB-AC36-6D56232A774D@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, according to one famous\ndocument. The first draft said 'life, liberty and property', and property\nis also very important. Some people think it might have been better to\nleave it as it was. This is not necessarily an exclusive list.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 19, 2009, at 7:52 PM, Daniel D Jones wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Tuesday 19 May 2009 17:09:43 Adam Thornton wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "\"Robbing from the rich to give to the poor,\" is simply the same\nargument stood on its head, of course. Does taxation go from\n\"legitimate\" to \"robbery\" at a value derived from the absolute dollar\nvalue of the tax, from a percentage of income across all income\nranges, or to a degree of inconvenience across all income ranges?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Taxation goes from \"legitimate\" to \"robbery\" when it's taken for an\nillegitimate purpose. Government has one legitimate function - to\nprotect the\nrights of the individual. Everything else is illegitimate and taxes\nfor those\npurposes are robbery." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Concisely put.\n\nWhat are the rights of the individual?\n\nAdam\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4A135A7A.8090802@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-05-20T01:18:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 16", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0905191742k2c9494dcpfb2796713fa32179@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "John, you are the peacemaker, so I bow to your authority as such. I will make no more war against Daniel and his people.\n\nBut, really, if you don't know about something, you Google it. Why respond to a serious post with nothing but \"WTF\"?\n\nGovernments apparently have strange powers. The extreme right pretends to consider the government useless, a parasitic appendage, and yet they say it must be got out of the way before anything good can happen (but they never will). How is this possible?\n\nAnswer: They know only enough about the topic to keep themselves pissed off, and to identify one another in online forums, and to erect barriers of noise against everyone else who wanders along." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--------------------------------\n\nMessage: 2\nDate: Tue, 19 May 2009 20:42:07 -0400\nFrom: John Watkins \nSubject: Re: (urth) Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 16\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID:\n\t<93d4039f0905191742k2c9494dcpfb2796713fa32179 at mail.gmail.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nDavid., is the assumption you're making about Daniel's reading habits\nwarranted?\n\nI am not a fan of the argument that those who disagree with one must simply\nnot be readers. There are claims that justify that assumption, but most of\nthem are not ideological in nature.\n\nOn Tue, May 19, 2009 at 8:38 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "No, thanks. But I suggest you try reading things that don't reinforce your\nexisting beliefs. You may learn something.\n\n------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4A135AF4.20400@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-05-20T01:20:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "<10324.67.142.130.18.1242781944.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oops, I spoke too soon.\n\nWelcome, wingnut!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Tue, 19 May 2009 20:52:18 -0400\nFrom: Daniel D Jones \nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: <200905192052.18366.ddjones at riddlemaster.org>\nContent-Type: Text/Plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nOn Tuesday 19 May 2009 17:09:43 Adam Thornton wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"Robbing from the rich to give to the poor,\" is simply the same\nargument stood on its head, of course. Does taxation go from\n\"legitimate\" to \"robbery\" at a value derived from the absolute dollar\nvalue of the tax, from a percentage of income across all income\nranges, or to a degree of inconvenience across all income ranges?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n\nTaxation goes from \"legitimate\" to \"robbery\" when it's taken for an \nillegitimate purpose. Government has one legitimate function - to protect the \nrights of the individual. Everything else is illegitimate and taxes for those \npurposes are robbery.\n\n\n\n\n------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4A135BDC.7020202@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-05-20T01:24:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "<4A135AF4.20400@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sorry, when did I say the American Civil War was justified? It was not. See, I've read up on it a bit.\n\nBTW, in my last post, I meant to add a \";)\" after I called you a wingnut.\n\nYou're still a wingnut, but I don't mean it in a nasty way. ;)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 6\nDate: Tue, 19 May 2009 21:03:48 -0400\nFrom: Daniel D Jones \nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: <200905192103.49068.ddjones at riddlemaster.org>\nContent-Type: Text/Plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nOn Tuesday 19 May 2009 17:21:26 David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The key term here is not \"voluntary\" and it's not \"consensual.\" It's\n\"consent\"---as in \"the consent of the governed.\" It's nothing like what you\nare thinking of.\n\nGoogle that phrase. Some kinds of education must be self-motivated." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n\nGoogle \"US Civil War\" and then come back and talk to me about \"consent of the \ngoverned.\"\n\n\n\n\n------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1270DCFD-CC10-4E34-A534-EB4EEF1945D2@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-05-20T01:27:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "<10324.67.142.130.18.1242781944.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 19, 2009, at 8:12 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nLife, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, according to one famous\ndocument. The first draft said 'life, liberty and property', and \nproperty\nis also very important. Some people think it might have been better to\nleave it as it was. This is not necessarily an exclusive list." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "However, in order to determine what the legitimate function of \ngovernment, as defined as \"to protect the rights of the individual,\" \nis, surely we need an exhaustive list, don't we?\n\nOtherwise, who is to say that I am wrong if I declare that it is my \nright to take Alyson Hannigan and Summer Glau as my concubines? I \nsuspect strongly that no one else on the list would agree with such an \nassertion that this was a legitimate right of mine as an individual, \nand I suspect even *more* strongly that the women in question would \ndisagree vehemently.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7384211C-FFB5-4653-A1DA-0831F0D5BC6E@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Transentient", "address": "transentient at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-05-20T02:24:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "<1270DCFD-CC10-4E34-A534-EB4EEF1945D2@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This thread was interesting for a very brief time and then it became \nannoying, and more annoying by degrees, until I realized that I cannot \nstand to read another word typed by, basically, any of you, though \nthat is really the fault of the two or three of you who apparently \nhave no useful lives outside of espousing entirely irrelevant \npolitical viewpoints using outdated social networking technology.\n\nI hope you guys enjoy the next eight years of Democratic hegemony. \nHere's a hint: you might want to get off your asses and either try to \ntake the GOP away from the Christian Right, or try to build an actual \nlibertarian political party that might have some hope of bringing \nabout this Jeffersonian utopia you crave, populated entirely by manly, \nbearded yeoman farmer-engineers. Or whatever it is that is supposed to \nbe good about the world you want to have.\n\nThanks,\nCliff" } ] }, { "message_id": "<272706220905192256v75226e2bi7fc3162b46ba5c6@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-05-20T05:56:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "<200905192052.18366.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I go out for one nice dinner with my wife and look what happens!\n\nIn brief, let me say that anyone who is interested in actually\nlistening to a commie pinko about these things can e-mail me, respond\nat my blog (http://citizen-lane.blogspot.com) or just read up on your\nown at http://www.marxists.org. You might be surprised by how\ninauthentic a picture of socialism one gets from a US education,\nparticularly in the realm of economics, where neoclassical liberalism\nrules the roost. We're not out of the shadow of McCarthyism yet.\n\nNow, back to Wolfe. I bought \"There Are Doors\" at a used bookstore\nlast week. I am thoroughly impressed." } ] }, { "message_id": "<13492.67.142.130.38.1242801009.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-05-20T06:30:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "<272706220905192256v75226e2bi7fc3162b46ba5c6@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hey Lane, meeting you has been a real treat. I'm looking forward to\ngetting to know you better.\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I go out for one nice dinner with my wife and look what happens!\n\nIn brief, let me say that anyone who is interested in actually\nlistening to a commie pinko about these things can e-mail me, respond\nat my blog (http://citizen-lane.blogspot.com) or just read up on your\nown at http://www.marxists.org. You might be surprised by how\ninauthentic a picture of socialism one gets from a US education,\nparticularly in the realm of economics, where neoclassical liberalism\nrules the roost. We're not out of the shadow of McCarthyism yet.\n\nNow, back to Wolfe. I bought \"There Are Doors\" at a used bookstore\nlast week. I am thoroughly impressed.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<63FB9AC7E0AEC7459DBCC99DC44247CA031FA6A6@BOSIDEXDB.Bankofscotland.ie>", "from": { "name": "O'Donnell, Tim BOSI", "address": "tim.o'donnell at bankofscotland.ie" }, "date": "2009-05-20T09:20:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "<13492.67.142.130.38.1242801009.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James,\n\nI think the flight of wealthy Americans to Ireland is as we had until recently a special law here allowing artists\nto pay no tax. The law has since been done away with and we saw an outflux of some of our wealthiest citizens.\n\n(Aside: Including U2 who went to another tax free haven. I find it a little annoying that Bono asks us to donate money to charity\nall the time when he is unwilling to pay his tax bill.)\n\nAs for Europeans fleeing to America because they are working as waiters in Europe, I think this is inaccurate.\nIn the pre-credit crunch days there were huge rates of employment in Ireland (about 97%) and across Europe \n(averaging about 94%). In a recent poll run by my college following up on those who graduated 5 years ago 70% of my class \nwere in industry, 25% were in further education and the rest were occupied in various ways. \n\n\n\n\n______________________________________________________________\n______________________________________________________________" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Message: 1\nDate: Tue, 19 May 2009 15:25:37 -0500\nFrom: \"James Wynn\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: <50586EEE2CA14862AA7A038867E0B211 at eMachinePC>\nContent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=\"iso-8859-1\";\n\treply-type=response" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You can say that \"Well, we live in a society, and that's just the burden \nthat rich people will have to bear to live in it with us. Fine. The Wall \nStreet Journal has an article yesterday by Art Laffer on what the \nresponse of rich people is to that ultimatum.\nhttp://online.wsj.com/article/SB124260067214828295.html\nThey leave.\nJust as the pilgrims left when Wat set up shop in the forest." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Adam sez: And yet, I see very few millionaires moving to Mogadishu.\nWhy do you suppose that is?\n\nBecause the people there do not respect the integrity of private property?\n\nYou will find millionaires hiding out in the Bahamas. And many millionaires \nhave left the \"more equitable\" welfare state of the U.K. for the \"less fair\" \nU.S. and Ireland. The flight of load-bearing citizens from NYC and \nCalifornia are test-tube examples of what happens when you increase benefits \nfor all on the backs of a voting minority.\n\nThere is another reason America is not (yet) Mogadishu. V?clav Havel said \nthat it's easy to get a Communist society from a Capitalist one. It's as \neasy as getting seafood from an exotic fish aquarium. You just boil the the \naquarium. It's harder to go the other way. Those calling for increased \nsocial benefits from government are currently benefiting from a society that \nhas (relatively) eschewed those things in the past. They are essentially \nliving off the principle of an inheritance.\nPeople talk about how much Europeans *love* their free health care and \neducation. But educated people there are quite anxious to come to the U.S. \nanyway. Why? Limited opportunity. It's not uncommon for Europeans to take \ntheir free Ph.Ds and go to work as waiters. It's not \"How many millionaires \nare leaving?\" The tradesmen (the rich) didn't leave the village in \"The \nDevil in a Forest\". The question is \"How many new ones are coming? Is the \nrate of new ones being created here increasing or decreasing?\" \n\n\n************************************************************************************************\nFind out more about us at www.bankofscotland.ie \n\nThe information contained in this message is confidential and is intended for the addressee only. If you have received this message in error or there are any problems please notify the originator immediately. The unauthorised use, disclosure, copying or alteration of this message is strictly forbidden. This mail and any attachments have been scanned for viruses prior to leaving Bank of Scotland Ireland's network. \nBank of Scotland Ireland will not be liable for direct, special, indirect or consequential damages arising from alteration of the contents of this message by a third party or as a result of any virus being passed on. Bank of Scotland (Ireland) reserves the right to monitor and record e-mail messages sent to and from this address for the purposes of investigating or detecting any unauthorised use of its system and ensuring its effective operation.\n\nBank of Scotland (Ireland) Limited is part of HBOS plc and is regulated by the Financial Regulator. Registered in Ireland Number: 8545. Registered office: Bank of Scotland House, 124-127 St. Stephens Green, Dublin 2\n\n****************************************************************************************************" } ] }, { "message_id": "<200905200732.11412.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "from": { "name": "Daniel D Jones", "address": "ddjones at riddlemaster.org" }, "date": "2009-05-20T11:32:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "<4A135BDC.7020202@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tuesday 19 May 2009 21:24:44 David Stockhoff wrote:\nSorry, when did I say the American Civil War was justified? It was not.\nSee, I've read up on it a bit." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You seem to be implying that the current government is one which rules \"with \nthe consent of the governed.\" I was pointing out that it was, in fact, no \nsuch thing." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "BTW, in my last post, I meant to add a \";)\" after I called you a wingnut.\n\nYou're still a wingnut, but I don't mean it in a nasty way. ;)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Trust me, I've been called much worse than that and in a quite nasty way. I \ndon't take offense easily. I do think it's sad, however, that simply \nbelieving in the freedom of the individual is so far from mainstream thought \nthat it gets me called a \"wingnut.\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "<200905200739.00603.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "from": { "name": "Daniel D Jones", "address": "ddjones at riddlemaster.org" }, "date": "2009-05-20T11:39:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "<1270DCFD-CC10-4E34-A534-EB4EEF1945D2@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tuesday 19 May 2009 21:27:30 Adam Thornton wrote:\nOn May 19, 2009, at 8:12 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, according to one famous\ndocument. The first draft said 'life, liberty and property', and\nproperty\nis also very important. Some people think it might have been better to\nleave it as it was. This is not necessarily an exclusive list." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "However, in order to determine what the legitimate function of\ngovernment, as defined as \"to protect the rights of the individual,\"\nis, surely we need an exhaustive list, don't we?\n\nOtherwise, who is to say that I am wrong if I declare that it is my\nright to take Alyson Hannigan and Summer Glau as my concubines? I\nsuspect strongly that no one else on the list would agree with such an\nassertion that this was a legitimate right of mine as an individual,\nand I suspect even *more* strongly that the women in question would\ndisagree vehemently." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, we don't need an exhaustive list. We need simple principles to define the \nterms. In short, you're free to do anything you like so long as you do no \nharm to me and mine. (\"You,\" \"me\" and \"mine\" being generic terms, of course, \nand not necessarily referring to any specific individual.) If Alyson and \nSummer want to be your concubines, wonderful. If they decline, then \nattempting to force them clearly violates the above principle." } ] }, { "message_id": "<200905200749.13816.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "from": { "name": "Daniel D Jones", "address": "ddjones at riddlemaster.org" }, "date": "2009-05-20T11:49:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Tuesday 19 May 2009 18:17:40 Pedro Pereira wrote:\nDate: Tue, 19 May 2009 17:36:13 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)\n\nI said this in a recent post. I will expand upon it.\n\nTaxation, the extortion of money from the citizens, is permissible for\nthings that are necessary. My list of necessary things includes the\nmilitary and things related to the military, infrastructure and certain\nkinds of research. I insist that the involuntary nature of taxation be\nexplicit and resist the inevitable attempts at expansion of the\nthings-to-be-paid-for-by-taxation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't want to meddle to much on this discussion but your statements make\nme curious.\n\n\n\n\n\"My list of necessary things includes the" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "military and things related to the military, infrastructure and certain\nkinds of research.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "YOUR list. Basically you're OK with extortion of money from its citizens by\nthe government AS LONG as it according to what YOU think is necessary. This\nmeans that everyone in this list, from what I gather, is OK with the\nextortion, the only thing that really changes is the degree of said\nextortion or, more realisticaly, as long as the money goes into what each\none of us thinks it should go. This amounts to no real change in the nature\nof the political system itself whatsoever, just a change on the degree to\neach a state taxes and applies the money." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not everyone, no. I don't believe government is a privileged entity. An act \nthat is immoral for a citizen to perform doesn't become OK just because \nsomeone with a government title does it. Government authority is derived from \nthe authority of its citizens by proxy. Government has only and solely the \nright to act in matters and ways which the citizens also have a right to act.\n\nI believe that every man is his own and his only master. I have the right to \ndo anything I please, so long as I do no harm to you and yours. If I do seek \nto do harm to you or yours, then you have the right to use force to stop me - \nto defend yourself.\n\nSince you have the right to use force if necessary to, say, stop me from \nstealing your car, government can legitimately act as your proxy and institute \na police force to stop auto theft. This same principle can be expanded and \nextended to determine the legitimate authority that government possesses. I \nhave the right to defend myself from foreign invasion, so government can act \nas my proxy and institute a national defense. (Note that this justifies \nnational defense, not a national foreign policy enforcement arm.) But I have \nno right to take your money by force in order to feed someone else, so \ngovernment has no legitimate authority to do that either." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4A13F762.70705@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-05-20T12:28:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "<200905200749.13816.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You know more about this than I do, I'm sure. Do U2 pay NO tax, or do they simply move a large portion of it offshore every year, like any corporation? A loophole is a loophole, until it is closed.\n\nAnd wouldn't that allow them to spend more on charities? Whether they do or not is a different question." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 8\nDate: Wed, 20 May 2009 10:20:00 +0100\nFrom: \"O'Donnell, Tim \\(BOSI\\)\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)\nTo: \nMessage-ID:\n\t<63FB9AC7E0AEC7459DBCC99DC44247CA031FA6A6 at BOSIDEXDB.Bankofscotland.ie>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nJames,\n\nI think the flight of wealthy Americans to Ireland is as we had until recently a special law here allowing artists\nto pay no tax. The law has since been done away with and we saw an outflux of some of our wealthiest citizens.\n\n(Aside: Including U2 who went to another tax free haven. I find it a little annoying that Bono asks us to donate money to charity\nall the time when he is unwilling to pay his tax bill.)\n\nAs for Europeans fleeing to America because they are working as waiters in Europe, I think this is inaccurate.\nIn the pre-credit crunch days there were huge rates of employment in Ireland (about 97%) and across Europe \n(averaging about 94%). In a recent poll run by my college following up on those who graduated 5 years ago 70% of my class \nwere in industry, 25% were in further education and the rest were occupied in various ways. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<6278.67.142.130.46.1242826446.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-05-20T13:34:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "<200905200749.13816.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I believe that every man is his own and his only master. I have the right\nto\ndo anything I please, so long as I do no harm to you and yours. If I do\nseek\nto do harm to you or yours, then you have the right to use force to stop\nme - to defend yourself." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Since you have the right to use force if necessary to, say, stop me from\nstealing your car, government can legitimately act as your proxy and\ninstitute a police force to stop auto theft. This same principle can be\nexpanded and extended to determine the legitimate authority that\ngovernment possesses. I have the right to defend myself from foreign\ninvasion, so government can act as my proxy and institute a national\ndefense. (Note that this justifies national defense, not a national\nforeign policy enforcement arm.) But I have no right to take your money\nby force in order to feed someone else, so government has no legitimate\nauthority to do that either." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Damn, clear thinking in 2009. Who woulda thunk it?\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<9880C4BF-78E9-4F5E-A123-8CFAAAACAB0A@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-05-20T18:10:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "<200905200739.00603.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 20, 2009, at 6:39 AM, Daniel D Jones wrote:\n\nNo, we don't need an exhaustive list. We need simple principles to \ndefine the\nterms. In short, you're free to do anything you like so long as you \ndo no\nharm to me and mine." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If we don't create an exhaustive list, we're going to get an ever- \ncascading list of entitlements that become fundamental rights. I \nthought that was part of the problem we were trying to solve.\n\n\"Do no harm,\" is also tricky. I mean, every time I breathe, I'm using \nup oxygen that you *could* use. If I drive to the grocery store, I'm \nremoving some gasoline from the global oil supply and thus making it \njust a little bit more expensive for a humanitarian aid convoy in \nAfrica in five years.\n\nLet's say I have a silver mine. You live below it on the mountain. I \ndo all my mining and waste disposal on land I own, as is my right. \nHowever, my waste disposal makes YOUR well water undrinkable since \nwater doesn't respect property boundaries. Am I within my rights to \nsay, \"hey, I'm doing lawful things on my own damn property--your well \nis not my problem!\" ?\n\n\"No\" harm is clearly not possible. What is the epsilon that is close- \nenough-to-zero-for-rights-determination-process, and who gets to \ndecide it?\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<377E7976-34D9-46EA-BEFE-C0CA37CBDF4C@comcast.net>", "from": { "name": "Steven", "address": "mcquaryq at comcast.net" }, "date": "2009-05-20T21:58:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "<11519.67.142.130.18.1242778047.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 19, 2009, at 8:07 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nWell, I'd think you'd have to minimize the shame-heaping aspects if \nyou\nwanted to adapt the system for general use, but that doesn't mean \nit can't\nbe done.\n\nDoesn't change the principal, I don't think." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Correct. What it does is minimize the outflow of funds for that \npurpose. Most of the money the church collects goes to mission \noutreach and new building projects.\n\nSteven Bowen\nhttp://bowenfinearts.com/" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3117.67.142.130.43.1242857476.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-05-20T22:11:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "<377E7976-34D9-46EA-BEFE-C0CA37CBDF4C@comcast.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Which, again, would not necessarily interfere with modifying the system to\nprovide social services on a voluntary basis.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 19, 2009, at 8:07 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, I'd think you'd have to minimize the shame-heaping aspects if\nyou\nwanted to adapt the system for general use, but that doesn't mean\nit can't\nbe done.\n\nDoesn't change the principal, I don't think." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Correct. What it does is minimize the outflow of funds for that\npurpose. Most of the money the church collects goes to mission\noutreach and new building projects.\n\nSteven Bowen\nhttp://bowenfinearts.com/\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20090520224148.GI29453@broggs.org>", "from": { "name": "Jeffrey Brent McBeth", "address": "mcbeth at broggs.org" }, "date": "2009-05-20T22:41:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "<377E7976-34D9-46EA-BEFE-C0CA37CBDF4C@comcast.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 05:58:54PM -0400, Steven wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, I'd think you'd have to minimize the shame-heaping aspects if \nyou\nwanted to adapt the system for general use, but that doesn't mean it \ncan't\nbe done.\n\nDoesn't change the principal, I don't think." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Correct. What it does is minimize the outflow of funds for that \npurpose. Most of the money the church collects goes to mission outreach \nand new building projects." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps things have changed a little since you were last active, here\nis more or less how things are now within the Mormon church.\n\n\"Fast Offerings\", which are the funds the church collects for member\nwelfare (and humanitarian) aid are separate from tithing. You are\nencouraged to pay a \"generous fast offering\" once a month, but you are\nnever asked if you do so, and there are no regulatory penalties for\nnot. These funds are kept separate from tithing funds, and never flow\nfrom the \"fast offering\" pile to the tithing pile. The standard\nmetric is to donate the cost of two meals once a month. People are\nalso encouraged to donate time to the churches many farms, canneries,\nand distribution centers (but there is no record keeping or accounting\nof that donation).\n\nTithing primarily goes to support the day-to-day operations of the\nchurch. Its buildings, construction, missions, etc. Tithing also\nassists in paying for out-of-church humanitarian. Money has gone from\ntithing to assist in short term needs, like the humanitarian aid after\nthe typhoon in Indonesia. Once a year at the end of the year, you are\nprivately asked by your ecclesiastical leader if you are a full tithe\npayer prior to receiving an accounting of your donations to show to\nthe tax man (your answer does not affect the ease of getting that\naccount). Once every other year, if you wish, you may apply for a two\nyear pass to enter the temple. The temple is separate from weekly\nservices, and in many areas of the world it is not uncommon for people\nto never go. As part of the process, you are asked privately (without\nrecourse to records) if you pay tithing. \n\nI've been on three sides of the coin. Receiving aid, giving aid, and\nadministering aid (and so am hardly an innocent/unbiased bystander).\nShaming people for receiving aid is strictly against church policies,\nand the member(s) that did that did wrong. All information concerning\nwelfare receipt is also supposed to be kept strictly confidential by\nthose administering and giving the aid. People are encouraged to find\nemployment sufficient to support their families, and the congregations\nusually have a person trained to provide job-search support and many\npeople trained in self-sufficiency techniques.\n\nThere are problems (as all human-run endeavours have), but by and\nlarge it seems work (from my view in the trenches). I've helped in\npoor congregations that have as much as 80+% of the families receiving\naid, and while the strain on the bishop and relief society (the male\nand female leader respectively) is immense, it still seems to work.\n\nBut, we are way way off topic here, unless Gene suddenly switches\naffiliation :) Part of why I love reading him is that I feel he gives\nme insight into the nature of my own faith (I would include Chesterton\nin that same group)\n\nJeff" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "----------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\"The man who does not read good books has no advantage over \n the man who cannot read them.\"\n -- Mark Twain\n----------------------------------------------------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Steven", "address": "mcquaryq at comcast.net" }, "date": "2009-05-21T22:13:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "<20090520224148.GI29453@broggs.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 20, 2009, at 6:41 PM, Jeffrey Brent McBeth wrote:\nPerhaps things have changed a little since you were last active, here\nis more or less how things are now within the Mormon church." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, you got me. I remember the separate fast tithing now that you \nbring it up. It must amount to a small percentage of overall \ntithes. And sorry for smearing the good Mormon folk with that shame \nstuff - that was my perception at the time but it may have been \nskewed by youth or by the congregation I found myself reared in. Sorry.\n\nSteve" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2353.72.171.0.141.1242949910.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-05-21T23:51:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For all the wierd stuff that gets bruited about about Mormons and\nMormonism, it has always seemed a perfectly reasonable religion to me. The\ntheology and founding history is a little wierd, but seriously folks,\nwhose theology and founding history is *not* a little wierd, or more than\na little? We all think our own isn't because we are used to it.\n\nMormonism also, remember, is a very young religion. It may very well be\nsignificantly different in a thousand years or more: one of the most\nadmirable things about the Church is its ability to adapt to changing\ntimes.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 20, 2009, at 6:41 PM, Jeffrey Brent McBeth wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Perhaps things have changed a little since you were last active, here\nis more or less how things are now within the Mormon church." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, you got me. I remember the separate fast tithing now that you\nbring it up. It must amount to a small percentage of overall\ntithes. And sorry for smearing the good Mormon folk with that shame\nstuff - that was my perception at the time but it may have been\nskewed by youth or by the congregation I found myself reared in. Sorry.\n\nSteve\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20090522114946.GK29453@broggs.org>", "from": { "name": "Jeffrey Brent McBeth", "address": "mcbeth at broggs.org" }, "date": "2009-05-22T11:49:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 06:13:28PM -0400, Steven wrote:\n\nOn May 20, 2009, at 6:41 PM, Jeffrey Brent McBeth wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Perhaps things have changed a little since you were last active, here\nis more or less how things are now within the Mormon church." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, you got me. I remember the separate fast tithing now that you \nbring it up. It must amount to a small percentage of overall tithes. \nAnd sorry for smearing the good Mormon folk with that shame stuff - that \nwas my perception at the time but it may have been skewed by youth or by \nthe congregation I found myself reared in. Sorry." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Didn't feel smeared at all. There are bad eggs here, just like\neverywhere else. There are lots and lots that are well meaning but\nhorrible with the implementation (we're all amateurs). It should also\ncome as no surprise to anybody that has read any Douglas Hofstadter or\nIsaac Asimov (or has attended churches) that each congregation has its\nown personality that is more than the sum of its congregants. \n\nI really wanted to pull things back to Gene Wolfe with that last\nsentence, but his books seem to me to concentrate so much on the\nindividual, that group psychology and dynamics don't come into relief\nas much as with other authors.\n\nJeff" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "----------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\"The man who does not read good books has no advantage over \n the man who cannot read them.\"\n -- Mark Twain\n----------------------------------------------------------------------------" } ] } ] }