{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5438", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5438, "subject": "Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 30", "messages": 3, "voices": 3, "first": "2009-05-19T22:10:38+00:00", "last": "2009-05-19T22:25:25+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<4A132E5E.9060401@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-05-19T22:10:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 30", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thank you for this." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 7\nDate: Tue, 19 May 2009 16:51:17 -0500\nFrom: Lane Haygood \nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: <9C6B0298-D857-46D7-80F4-0E74FA6F4720 at gmail.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain;\tcharset=us-ascii;\tformat=flowed;\tdelsp=yes\n\n... \nThe substitution of civil government/society with a profit driven \nmarket removes this universally-agreed as beneficial goal of \ncooperation and replaced it with a unilateral goal of profit. As \nwealth cannot be created ex nihilo, profit must arise from a producer \ntaking more than a product is worth. This is only possible on a market \nwhere supply and demand are manipulated against the interest of the \nconsumer.\n\nThus, the market is merely the latest iteration of the master-slave \nrelation. It is the battlefield of class conflict. How does calling \ntaxes imposed by a lawful sovereign equal theft, but the creation of \nprofit not equal extortion by a self-selected, undemocratic oligarchy?\n\nIndividuals and individual liberty are only meaningful insofar as a \ncivil legal system ensures they are protected. Authoritarian abuses by \nright and left ignore this. Free markets actively surpress it by \neconomic manipulation.\n..." } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0905191520g7eee6825hc41de744c2052365@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-05-19T22:20:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 30", "in_reply_to": "<4A132E5E.9060401@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Do economists still take the account of the nature of profit explained below\nseriously? I encountered it in school myself, laughed at it, and was\nassured that I wasn not expected to *believe *it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 6:10 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nThank you for this.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 7\nDate: Tue, 19 May 2009 16:51:17 -0500\nFrom: Lane Haygood \nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: <9C6B0298-D857-46D7-80F4-0E74FA6F4720 at gmail.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed;\n delsp=yes\n\n... The substitution of civil government/society with a profit driven\n market removes this universally-agreed as beneficial goal of cooperation\nand replaced it with a unilateral goal of profit. As wealth cannot be\ncreated ex nihilo, profit must arise from a producer taking more than a\nproduct is worth. This is only possible on a market where supply and demand\nare manipulated against the interest of the consumer.\n\nThus, the market is merely the latest iteration of the master-slave\n relation. It is the battlefield of class conflict. How does calling taxes\nimposed by a lawful sovereign equal theft, but the creation of profit not\nequal extortion by a self-selected, undemocratic oligarchy?\n\nIndividuals and individual liberty are only meaningful insofar as a civil\nlegal system ensures they are protected. Authoritarian abuses by right and\nleft ignore this. Free markets actively surpress it by economic\nmanipulation.\n...\n\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 090519-0, 05/19/2009\nTested on: 5/19/2009 6:10:42 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3330.67.142.130.18.1242771925.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-05-19T22:25:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 30", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0905191520g7eee6825hc41de744c2052365@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I believe that Marxist economists (a contradiction in terms if ever I saw\none) do take this seriously.\n\nWealth is created literally all of the time. That it is not is one of the\nmost destructive of Marxian delusions.\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Do economists still take the account of the nature of profit explained\nbelow\nseriously? I encountered it in school myself, laughed at it, and was\nassured that I wasn not expected to *believe *it.\n\nOn Tue, May 19, 2009 at 6:10 PM, David Stockhoff\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Thank you for this.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 7\nDate: Tue, 19 May 2009 16:51:17 -0500\nFrom: Lane Haygood \nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: <9C6B0298-D857-46D7-80F4-0E74FA6F4720 at gmail.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed;\n delsp=yes\n\n... The substitution of civil government/society with a profit driven\n market removes this universally-agreed as beneficial goal of\ncooperation\nand replaced it with a unilateral goal of profit. As wealth cannot be\ncreated ex nihilo, profit must arise from a producer taking more than a\nproduct is worth. This is only possible on a market where supply and\ndemand\nare manipulated against the interest of the consumer.\n\nThus, the market is merely the latest iteration of the master-slave\n relation. It is the battlefield of class conflict. How does calling\ntaxes\nimposed by a lawful sovereign equal theft, but the creation of profit\nnot\nequal extortion by a self-selected, undemocratic oligarchy?\n\nIndividuals and individual liberty are only meaningful insofar as a\ncivil\nlegal system ensures they are protected. Authoritarian abuses by right\nand\nleft ignore this. Free markets actively surpress it by economic\nmanipulation.\n...\n\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 090519-0, 05/19/2009\nTested on: 5/19/2009 6:10:42 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] } ] }