Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 30 The Urth list — 3 messages, 3 voices, 19 May 2009 https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5438 Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. ============================================================================== David Stockhoff — 19 May 2009, 22:10 Thank you for this. > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 16:51:17 -0500 > From: Lane Haygood > Subject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again) > To: The Urth Mailing List > Message-ID: <9C6B0298-D857-46D7-80F4-0E74FA6F4720 at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes > > ... > The substitution of civil government/society with a profit driven > market removes this universally-agreed as beneficial goal of > cooperation and replaced it with a unilateral goal of profit. As > wealth cannot be created ex nihilo, profit must arise from a producer > taking more than a product is worth. This is only possible on a market > where supply and demand are manipulated against the interest of the > consumer. > > Thus, the market is merely the latest iteration of the master-slave > relation. It is the battlefield of class conflict. How does calling > taxes imposed by a lawful sovereign equal theft, but the creation of > profit not equal extortion by a self-selected, undemocratic oligarchy? > > Individuals and individual liberty are only meaningful insofar as a > civil legal system ensures they are protected. Authoritarian abuses by > right and left ignore this. Free markets actively surpress it by > economic manipulation. > ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ John Watkins — 19 May 2009, 22:20 in reply to David Stockhoff Do economists still take the account of the nature of profit explained below seriously? I encountered it in school myself, laughed at it, and was assured that I wasn not expected to *believe *it. > On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 6:10 PM, David Stockhoff wrote: > Thank you for this. > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 16:51:17 -0500 > From: Lane Haygood > Subject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again) > To: The Urth Mailing List > Message-ID: <9C6B0298-D857-46D7-80F4-0E74FA6F4720 at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; > delsp=yes > > ... The substitution of civil government/society with a profit driven > market removes this universally-agreed as beneficial goal of cooperation > and replaced it with a unilateral goal of profit. As wealth cannot be > created ex nihilo, profit must arise from a producer taking more than a > product is worth. This is only possible on a market where supply and demand > are manipulated against the interest of the consumer. > > Thus, the market is merely the latest iteration of the master-slave > relation. It is the battlefield of class conflict. How does calling taxes > imposed by a lawful sovereign equal theft, but the creation of profit not > equal extortion by a self-selected, undemocratic oligarchy? > > Individuals and individual liberty are only meaningful insofar as a civil > legal system ensures they are protected. Authoritarian abuses by right and > left ignore this. Free markets actively surpress it by economic > manipulation. > ... > > > > --- > avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. > Virus Database (VPS): 090519-0, 05/19/2009 > Tested on: 5/19/2009 6:10:42 PM > avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software. > http://www.avast.com > > > > _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ brunians at brunians.org — 19 May 2009, 22:25 in reply to John Watkins I believe that Marxist economists (a contradiction in terms if ever I saw one) do take this seriously. Wealth is created literally all of the time. That it is not is one of the most destructive of Marxian delusions. . > Do economists still take the account of the nature of profit explained > below > seriously? I encountered it in school myself, laughed at it, and was > assured that I wasn not expected to *believe *it. > > On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 6:10 PM, David Stockhoff > wrote: > > Thank you for this. > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 7 > > Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 16:51:17 -0500 > > From: Lane Haygood > > Subject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again) > > To: The Urth Mailing List > > Message-ID: <9C6B0298-D857-46D7-80F4-0E74FA6F4720 at gmail.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; > > delsp=yes > > > > ... The substitution of civil government/society with a profit driven > > market removes this universally-agreed as beneficial goal of > > cooperation > > and replaced it with a unilateral goal of profit. As wealth cannot be > > created ex nihilo, profit must arise from a producer taking more than a > > product is worth. This is only possible on a market where supply and > > demand > > are manipulated against the interest of the consumer. > > > > Thus, the market is merely the latest iteration of the master-slave > > relation. It is the battlefield of class conflict. How does calling > > taxes > > imposed by a lawful sovereign equal theft, but the creation of profit > > not > > equal extortion by a self-selected, undemocratic oligarchy? > > > > Individuals and individual liberty are only meaningful insofar as a > > civil > > legal system ensures they are protected. Authoritarian abuses by right > > and > > left ignore this. Free markets actively surpress it by economic > > manipulation. > > ... > > > > > > > > --- > > avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. > > Virus Database (VPS): 090519-0, 05/19/2009 > > Tested on: 5/19/2009 6:10:42 PM > > avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software. > > http://www.avast.com > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------