{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5439", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5439, "subject": "Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 31", "messages": 16, "voices": 8, "first": "2009-05-19T22:14:17+00:00", "last": "2009-05-20T01:20:20+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Robin Dunn", "address": "bigbadgerjohnny at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-05-19T22:14:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 31", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Into the streets with your Robin Hood hats!\n\nTear down the SUVs! tear down the McDonalds! Unite as Brothers! ;)\nBurn the neocons at the stake like Giordano Bruno! Instatiate the\nGroup of Seventeen for all time!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 3:11 PM, wrote:\nSend Urth mailing list submissions to\n? ? ? ?urth at lists.urth.net\n\nTo subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit\n? ? ? ?http://lists.urth.net/listinfo.cgi/urth-urth.net\nor, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to\n? ? ? ?urth-request at lists.urth.net\n\nYou can reach the person managing the list at\n? ? ? ?urth-owner at lists.urth.net\n\nWhen replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific\nthan \"Re: Contents of Urth digest...\"\n\n\nToday's Topics:\n\n? 1. Re: ?Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again) (Adam Thornton)\n? 2. Re: ?Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again) (brunians at brunians.org)\n? 3. Re: ?Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again) (brunians at brunians.org)\n? 4. Re: ?Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again) (James Wynn)\n? 5. Re: ?Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again) (David Stockhoff)\n? 6. Re: ?Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again) (David Stockhoff)\n? 7. Re: ?Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 30 (David Stockhoff)\n? 8. Re: ?Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again) (David Stockhoff)\n\n\n----------------------------------------------------------------------\n\nMessage: 1\nDate: Tue, 19 May 2009 17:00:17 -0500\nFrom: Adam Thornton \nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: <7128DCCE-0E7C-4291-A0FA-D5855BC96A02 at io.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes\n\n\nOn May 19, 2009, at 4:56 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I calls them like I sees them. I prefer to look straight at things and\nname them plainly, rather than search for more comforting, euphemistic\nways to express plain reality." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ah, but here is our fundamental disagreement: I don't think\n\"extortion\" is any closer to \"plain reality\" than \"dues.\"\n\nI am, in fact, arguing that the reverse is true. “But then I believe\nwe probably, at heart, disagree on \"plain reality.\"\n\nAdam\n\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 2\nDate: Tue, 19 May 2009 18:03:48 -0400 (EDT)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: <14123.67.142.130.18.1242770628.squirrel at brunians.org>\nContent-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1\n\nYou're familiar with Thomas Jefferson, right Lane” They taught you about\nhim in law school or college or something, I am sure, and you are just\npretending to be ignorant for rhetorical effect.\n\nGo on with you: I am feeling favorably disposed towards you now and have\nno real desire to explain Jeffersonianism to you, almost certainly falling\ninto one or more of your lawyerly traps along the way. I argue for fun,\nnot blood and would prefer not to engage with a professional unless you\ntie one lobe of your brain behind your back or something.\n\n\n\n...[W]hat country can preserve its liberties, if it's rulers are not\nwarned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of\nresistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as\nto the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost\nin a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from\ntime to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants.\nIt is its natural manure.\n\n-- Thomas Jefferson\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So your democratically-elected government gets to serve at the\npleasure of a small but violent minority? I understand frustration\nwith graft and waste, but calling for rebellion against a lawfully-\nseated state for carrying out the will of society?\n\nAt some point, you realize the value in cooperation, community and\nshared society. All civilization is based on this premise, that\ntogether a people can accomplish what one alone cannot.\n\nThe substitution of civil government/society with a profit driven\nmarket removes this universally-agreed as beneficial goal of\ncooperation and replaced it with a unilateral goal of profit. As\nwealth cannot be created ex nihilo, profit must arise from a producer\ntaking more than a product is worth. This is only possible on a market\nwhere supply and demand are manipulated against the interest of the\nconsumer.\n\nThus, the market is merely the latest iteration of the master-slave\nrelation. It is the battlefield of class conflict. How does calling\ntaxes imposed by a lawful sovereign equal theft, but the creation of\nprofit not equal extortion by a self-selected, undemocratic oligarchy?\n\nIndividuals and individual liberty are only meaningful insofar as a\ncivil legal system ensures they are protected. Authoritarian abuses by\nright and left ignore this. Free markets actively surpress it by\neconomic manipulation.\n\nTell me again why I should kill lawfully-seated ministers of the civil\ngovernment to preserve the rights of the people exploiting me?\n\nSent from my iPhone\n\nOn May 19, 2009, at 4:36 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I said this in a recent post. I will expand upon it.\n\nTaxation, the extortion of money from the citizens, is permissible for\nthings that are necessary. My list of necessary things includes the\nmilitary and things related to the military, infrastructure and\ncertain\nkinds of research. I insist that the involuntary nature of taxation be\nexplicit and resist the inevitable attempts at expansion of the\nthings-to-be-paid-for-by-taxation.\n\nOf course, as a good Jeffersonian, I believe that from time to time\nit is\nnecessary to shoot the bastards and start over. We're not quite\nthere yet.\n\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On May 19, 2009, at 4:19 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "But we (the people on the other side of the argument) are none of us\narguing for a complete lack of functional civil society and a\nHobbesian\nall-against-all. Were you under the impression that we were?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I don't see how you can get from the position that all taxation is\ntheft to the position that some governments are legitimate without\ngiving up on the first one.\n\nAdam\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 3\nDate: Tue, 19 May 2009 18:05:56 -0400 (EDT)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: <2352.67.142.130.18.1242770756.squirrel at brunians.org>\nContent-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1\n\nReality is what doesn't go away when you stop believing in it.\n\n-- PKD (I think).\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On May 19, 2009, at 4:56 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I calls them like I sees them. I prefer to look straight at things and\nname them plainly, rather than search for more comforting, euphemistic\nways to express plain reality." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Ah, but here is our fundamental disagreement: I don't think\n\"extortion\" is any closer to \"plain reality\" than \"dues.\"\n\nI am, in fact, arguing that the reverse is true. ?But then I believe\nwe probably, at heart, disagree on \"plain reality.\"\n\nAdam\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Tue, 19 May 2009 17:06:05 -0500\nFrom: \"James Wynn\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=\"iso-8859-1\";\n? ? ? ?reply-type=response\n\nAdam, in \"The Devil in a Forest\", Wolfe presents the issue moral terms. If\nI'm benefiting from a service more than my neighbor, and also paying less\nfor that service than my neighbor, why is that less shameful than just going\nto his door and demanding the money?\nOkay. Here are your three options:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Adam sez:\nOf course, \"fund it to the same degree,\" and \"robbing from the rich to\ngive to the poor,\" each themselves admit multiple interpretations.\nOne way of \"funding it to the same degree\" would be to demand a flat\namount from each citizen." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is actually is the most fair way. But, that's asking way too much\nfairness from a society of Fallen human beings. On the other hand, if the\npoor don't like it, I suppose they could move to Mogadishu." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "One way would be to impose the same percentage fee on each citizen,\nregardless of income. “This is usually what Libertarians claim to ?like.\nHowever, such a plan ignores the (I think fairly important) ?observation\nthat the marginal value of money decreases the more of it ?you have." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marginal value decreases for whom” Not to the people who work to earn it.\nYou're argument divorces the amount of money made from the people who\ncreated it. It assumes that a guy making $25K a year is exactly like the guy\nmaking $250K a year except that one happens to make less. It ignores the\nrisks the second guy took in capital, time, and effort in order to create\nthat wealth. It also ignores the fact that the first guy gets far more\nBENEFIT from non-essential government services that the second guy. Some\nwould say the differences therefore balance out so that both should pay the\nsame rate.\n\nThe real reason has nothing to do with marginal values of money. It has to\ndo with practicality. These services are proposed to get a majority of the\nvoting public to like them. So you give out benefits to a larger number and\nhave a smaller number pay the freight. No majority will not vote for 95% of\ngovernment services if they are seen as fee-for-service. “You probably\nwouldn't. David Stackhoff implied that he found the idea increased taxes\nappealing because he didn't think he'd pay the bulk of them (or any of\nthem”)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Hence a third way would be to impose a tax that causes the same amount “of\ninconvenience at all levels of income. ?This is approximately what\nprogressive income taxes attempt to do." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How does a progressive tax provide \"the same amount ?of inconvenience at all\nlevels of income\"? Or do you mean \"we'll tax you more if you have more and\nwe'll do the same to other guy who has more too\"? What if we taxed every one\nmaking $35K-$50K at 95% and everyone else at 15%. Is that equally logical”\nBut we don't just tax based on income either, do we? Because this is\ndemocracy in action. The law-makers cut breaks for certain voting blocks\n(home-owners, parents, college students, and retirees) while busting others\n(cigarette smokers and people who drive for a living)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"Robbing from the rich to give to the poor,\" is simply the same “argument\nstood on its head, of course. ?Does taxation go from ?\"legitimate\" to\n\"robbery\" at a value derived from the absolute dollar ?value of the tax,\nfrom a percentage of income across all income ?ranges, or to a degree of\ninconvenience across all income ranges”" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How can I describe a progressive tax? Say five citizens get together to fund\na new well. Hmmm...they could all pay the same amount to dig it, or they\ncould all pay the same percentage of their wealth, OR....they could vote\nthat Moe here--who also has a lake on his property so he doesn't need the\nwell---will pay for half of it because, after all, he can \"afford it\". How\nis that different from a two foxes and a hen voting on what to have for\nsupper?\n\nJ.\n\n\n\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Tue, 19 May 2009 18:06:46 -0400\nFrom: David Stockhoff \nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nMessage-ID: <4A132D76.3090700 at verizon.net>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed\n\nYeah, Mao and Washington would have found much in common.\n\n\n--- On Tue, 5/19/09, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "From: brunians at brunians.org \nMao was a perceptive guy about some\nthings. Power and how to use it, for\ninstance. Decent poet also, I'm told.\n\nNot a very nice man, but pretty smart.\n\nIf three people as different as Mao, Washington and Geller\nagree about\nsomething, I'd say it's time to sit up and take notice.\n\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "If Mao said it, it must be true.\n\n------------------------------" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 090519-0, 05/19/2009\nTested on: 5/19/2009 6:06:48 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 6\nDate: Tue, 19 May 2009 18:08:42 -0400\nFrom: David Stockhoff \nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nMessage-ID: <4A132DEA.20907 at verizon.net>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed\n\nOf course you have.\n\n\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Tue, 19 May 2009 17:44:27 -0400 (EDT)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4A1330B9.1080504@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-05-19T22:20:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 31", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Below" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Tue, 19 May 2009 17:06:05 -0500\nFrom: \"James Wynn\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=\"iso-8859-1\";\n\treply-type=response\n\nAdam, in \"The Devil in a Forest\", Wolfe presents the issue moral terms. If \nI'm benefiting from a service more than my neighbor, and also paying less \nfor that service than my neighbor, why is that less shameful than just going \nto his door and demanding the money?\nOkay. Here are your three options:\n\n-----If you keep thinking in terms of your individual, personal, exclusive benefit, you will never grasp the concept of the public good." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Adam sez:\nOf course, \"fund it to the same degree,\" and \"robbing from the rich to \ngive to the poor,\" each themselves admit multiple interpretations.\nOne way of \"funding it to the same degree\" would be to demand a flat \namount from each citizen." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n\nThis is actually is the most fair way. But, that's asking way too much \nfairness from a society of Fallen human beings. On the other hand, if the \npoor don't like it, I suppose they could move to Mogadishu.\n\n-----Yes, in their yachts." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "One way would be to impose the same percentage fee on each citizen, \nregardless of income. This is usually what Libertarians claim to like. \nHowever, such a plan ignores the (I think fairly important) observation \nthat the marginal value of money decreases the more of it you have." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n\nMarginal value decreases for whom? Not to the people who work to earn it. \nYou're argument divorces the amount of money made from the people who \ncreated it. It assumes that a guy making $25K a year is exactly like the guy \nmaking $250K a year except that one happens to make less. It ignores the \nrisks the second guy took in capital, time, and effort in order to create \nthat wealth. It also ignores the fact that the first guy gets far more \nBENEFIT from non-essential government services that the second guy. Some \nwould say the differences therefore balance out so that both should pay the \nsame rate.\n\n-----You're ignoring the fact that most personal wealth in the US is inherited. You're also ignoring racism and classism. And your assumption that the first guy gets more benefit from services is unfounded and unproven. _\n\n_The real reason has nothing to do with marginal values of money. It has to \ndo with practicality. These services are proposed to get a majority of the \nvoting public to like them. So you give out benefits to a larger number and \nhave a smaller number pay the freight. No majority will not vote for 95% of \ngovernment services if they are seen as fee-for-service. You probably \nwouldn't. David Stackhoff implied that he found the idea increased taxes \nappealing because he didn't think he'd pay the bulk of them (or any of \nthem?).\n\n-----I said nothing like that. I said I WANT TO PAY MORE TAXES. I want a bigger, better public \"space.\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "<12105.67.142.130.18.1242771658.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-05-19T22:20:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 31", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, the way you tell that it's getting close to shoot-the-bastards\ntime is that *everyone*, including the cops, is talking about it getting\nclose to shoot-the-bastards time, on one side of the argument or another,\ndepending on the loyalties of the region that you are in. Anyone disagrees\nthey keep quiet. That's how it was before the American Revolution and that\nis how it was before the War Between The States.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Into the streets with your Robin Hood hats!\n\nTear down the SUVs! tear down the McDonalds! Unite as Brothers! ;)\nBurn the neocons at the stake like Giordano Bruno! Instatiate the\nGroup of Seventeen for all time!\n\n\nOn Tue, May 19, 2009 at 3:11 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Send Urth mailing list submissions to\n? ? ? ?urth at lists.urth.net\n\nTo subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit\n? ? ? ?http://lists.urth.net/listinfo.cgi/urth-urth.net\nor, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to\n? ? ? ?urth-request at lists.urth.net\n\nYou can reach the person managing the list at\n? ? ? ?urth-owner at lists.urth.net\n\nWhen replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific\nthan \"Re: Contents of Urth digest...\"\n\n\nToday's Topics:\n\n? 1. Re: ?Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again) (Adam Thornton)\n? 2. Re: ?Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again) (brunians at brunians.org)\n? 3. Re: ?Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again) (brunians at brunians.org)\n? 4. Re: ?Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again) (James Wynn)\n? 5. Re: ?Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again) (David Stockhoff)\n? 6. Re: ?Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again) (David Stockhoff)\n? 7. Re: ?Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 30 (David Stockhoff)\n? 8. Re: ?Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again) (David Stockhoff)\n\n\n----------------------------------------------------------------------\n\nMessage: 1\nDate: Tue, 19 May 2009 17:00:17 -0500\nFrom: Adam Thornton \nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: <7128DCCE-0E7C-4291-A0FA-D5855BC96A02 at io.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes\n\n\nOn May 19, 2009, at 4:56 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I calls them like I sees them. I prefer to look straight at things and\nname them plainly, rather than search for more comforting, euphemistic\nways to express plain reality." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Ah, but here is our fundamental disagreement: I don't think\n\"extortion\" is any closer to \"plain reality\" than \"dues.\"\n\nI am, in fact, arguing that the reverse is true. “But then I believe\nwe probably, at heart, disagree on \"plain reality.\"\n\nAdam\n\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 2\nDate: Tue, 19 May 2009 18:03:48 -0400 (EDT)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: <14123.67.142.130.18.1242770628.squirrel at brunians.org>\nContent-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1\n\nYou're familiar with Thomas Jefferson, right Lane” They taught you about\nhim in law school or college or something, I am sure, and you are just\npretending to be ignorant for rhetorical effect.\n\nGo on with you: I am feeling favorably disposed towards you now and have\nno real desire to explain Jeffersonianism to you, almost certainly\nfalling\ninto one or more of your lawyerly traps along the way. I argue for fun,\nnot blood and would prefer not to engage with a professional unless you\ntie one lobe of your brain behind your back or something.\n\n\n\n...[W]hat country can preserve its liberties, if it's rulers are not\nwarned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of\nresistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as\nto the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost\nin a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from\ntime to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants.\nIt is its natural manure.\n\n-- Thomas Jefferson\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "So your democratically-elected government gets to serve at the\npleasure of a small but violent minority? I understand frustration\nwith graft and waste, but calling for rebellion against a lawfully-\nseated state for carrying out the will of society?\n\nAt some point, you realize the value in cooperation, community and\nshared society. All civilization is based on this premise, that\ntogether a people can accomplish what one alone cannot.\n\nThe substitution of civil government/society with a profit driven\nmarket removes this universally-agreed as beneficial goal of\ncooperation and replaced it with a unilateral goal of profit. As\nwealth cannot be created ex nihilo, profit must arise from a producer\ntaking more than a product is worth. This is only possible on a market\nwhere supply and demand are manipulated against the interest of the\nconsumer.\n\nThus, the market is merely the latest iteration of the master-slave\nrelation. It is the battlefield of class conflict. How does calling\ntaxes imposed by a lawful sovereign equal theft, but the creation of\nprofit not equal extortion by a self-selected, undemocratic oligarchy?\n\nIndividuals and individual liberty are only meaningful insofar as a\ncivil legal system ensures they are protected. Authoritarian abuses by\nright and left ignore this. Free markets actively surpress it by\neconomic manipulation.\n\nTell me again why I should kill lawfully-seated ministers of the civil\ngovernment to preserve the rights of the people exploiting me?\n\nSent from my iPhone\n\nOn May 19, 2009, at 4:36 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I said this in a recent post. I will expand upon it.\n\nTaxation, the extortion of money from the citizens, is permissible for\nthings that are necessary. My list of necessary things includes the\nmilitary and things related to the military, infrastructure and\ncertain\nkinds of research. I insist that the involuntary nature of taxation be\nexplicit and resist the inevitable attempts at expansion of the\nthings-to-be-paid-for-by-taxation.\n\nOf course, as a good Jeffersonian, I believe that from time to time\nit is\nnecessary to shoot the bastards and start over. We're not quite\nthere yet.\n\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "On May 19, 2009, at 4:19 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "But we (the people on the other side of the argument) are none of us\narguing for a complete lack of functional civil society and a\nHobbesian\nall-against-all. Were you under the impression that we were?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I don't see how you can get from the position that all taxation is\ntheft to the position that some governments are legitimate without\ngiving up on the first one.\n\nAdam\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 3\nDate: Tue, 19 May 2009 18:05:56 -0400 (EDT)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: <2352.67.142.130.18.1242770756.squirrel at brunians.org>\nContent-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1\n\nReality is what doesn't go away when you stop believing in it.\n\n-- PKD (I think).\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On May 19, 2009, at 4:56 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I calls them like I sees them. I prefer to look straight at things and\nname them plainly, rather than search for more comforting, euphemistic\nways to express plain reality." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Ah, but here is our fundamental disagreement: I don't think\n\"extortion\" is any closer to \"plain reality\" than \"dues.\"\n\nI am, in fact, arguing that the reverse is true. ?But then I believe\nwe probably, at heart, disagree on \"plain reality.\"\n\nAdam\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Tue, 19 May 2009 17:06:05 -0500\nFrom: \"James Wynn\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=\"iso-8859-1\";\n? ? ? ?reply-type=response\n\nAdam, in \"The Devil in a Forest\", Wolfe presents the issue moral terms.\nIf\nI'm benefiting from a service more than my neighbor, and also paying\nless\nfor that service than my neighbor, why is that less shameful than just\ngoing\nto his door and demanding the money?\nOkay. Here are your three options:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Adam sez:\nOf course, \"fund it to the same degree,\" and \"robbing from the rich to\ngive to the poor,\" each themselves admit multiple interpretations.\nOne way of \"funding it to the same degree\" would be to demand a flat\namount from each citizen." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This is actually is the most fair way. But, that's asking way too much\nfairness from a society of Fallen human beings. On the other hand, if\nthe\npoor don't like it, I suppose they could move to Mogadishu." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "One way would be to impose the same percentage fee on each citizen,\nregardless of income. “This is usually what Libertarians claim to ?like.\nHowever, such a plan ignores the (I think fairly important) ?observation\nthat the marginal value of money decreases the more of it ?you have." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Marginal value decreases for whom” Not to the people who work to earn\nit.\nYou're argument divorces the amount of money made from the people who\ncreated it. It assumes that a guy making $25K a year is exactly like the\nguy\nmaking $250K a year except that one happens to make less. It ignores the\nrisks the second guy took in capital, time, and effort in order to\ncreate\nthat wealth. It also ignores the fact that the first guy gets far more\nBENEFIT from non-essential government services that the second guy. Some\nwould say the differences therefore balance out so that both should pay\nthe\nsame rate.\n\nThe real reason has nothing to do with marginal values of money. It has\nto\ndo with practicality. These services are proposed to get a majority of\nthe\nvoting public to like them. So you give out benefits to a larger number\nand\nhave a smaller number pay the freight. No majority will not vote for 95%\nof\ngovernment services if they are seen as fee-for-service. “You probably\nwouldn't. David Stackhoff implied that he found the idea increased taxes\nappealing because he didn't think he'd pay the bulk of them (or any of\nthem”)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Hence a third way would be to impose a tax that causes the same amount\n“of\ninconvenience at all levels of income. ?This is approximately what\nprogressive income taxes attempt to do." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "How does a progressive tax provide \"the same amount ?of inconvenience at\nall\nlevels of income\"? Or do you mean \"we'll tax you more if you have more\nand\nwe'll do the same to other guy who has more too\"? What if we taxed every\none\nmaking $35K-$50K at 95% and everyone else at 15%. Is that equally\nlogical”\nBut we don't just tax based on income either, do we? Because this is\ndemocracy in action. The law-makers cut breaks for certain voting blocks\n(home-owners, parents, college students, and retirees) while busting\nothers\n(cigarette smokers and people who drive for a living)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "\"Robbing from the rich to give to the poor,\" is simply the same\n“argument\nstood on its head, of course. ?Does taxation go from ?\"legitimate\" to\n\"robbery\" at a value derived from the absolute dollar ?value of the\ntax,\nfrom a percentage of income across all income ?ranges, or to a degree\nof\ninconvenience across all income ranges”" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "How can I describe a progressive tax? Say five citizens get together to\nfund\na new well. Hmmm...they could all pay the same amount to dig it, or they\ncould all pay the same percentage of their wealth, OR....they could vote\nthat Moe here--who also has a lake on his property so he doesn't need\nthe\nwell---will pay for half of it because, after all, he can \"afford it\".\nHow\nis that different from a two foxes and a hen voting on what to have for\nsupper?\n\nJ.\n\n\n\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Tue, 19 May 2009 18:06:46 -0400\nFrom: David Stockhoff \nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nMessage-ID: <4A132D76.3090700 at verizon.net>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed\n\nYeah, Mao and Washington would have found much in common.\n\n\n--- On Tue, 5/19/09, brunians at brunians.org \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "From: brunians at brunians.org \nMao was a perceptive guy about some\nthings. Power and how to use it, for\ninstance. Decent poet also, I'm told.\n\nNot a very nice man, but pretty smart.\n\nIf three people as different as Mao, Washington and Geller\nagree about\nsomething, I'd say it's time to sit up and take notice.\n\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "If Mao said it, it must be true.\n\n------------------------------" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 090519-0, 05/19/2009\nTested on: 5/19/2009 6:06:48 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 6\nDate: Tue, 19 May 2009 18:08:42 -0400\nFrom: David Stockhoff \nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nMessage-ID: <4A132DEA.20907 at verizon.net>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed\n\nOf course you have.\n\n\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Tue, 19 May 2009 17:44:27 -0400 (EDT)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0905191525k3932cd2qfc00117804dc6ea9@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-05-19T22:25:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 31", "in_reply_to": "<12105.67.142.130.18.1242771658.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "brunians, are you a bona fide Southerner, or is your term for the American\nCivil War an affectation?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 6:20 PM, wrote:\nActually, the way you tell that it's getting close to shoot-the-bastards\ntime is that *everyone*, including the cops, is talking about it getting\nclose to shoot-the-bastards time, on one side of the argument or another,\ndepending on the loyalties of the region that you are in. Anyone disagrees\nthey keep quiet. That's how it was before the American Revolution and that\nis how it was before the War Between The States.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Into the streets with your Robin Hood hats!\n\nTear down the SUVs! tear down the McDonalds! Unite as Brothers! ;)\nBurn the neocons at the stake like Giordano Bruno! Instatiate the\nGroup of Seventeen for all time!\n\n\nOn Tue, May 19, 2009 at 3:11 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Send Urth mailing list submissions to\n urth at lists.urth.net\n\nTo subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit\n http://lists.urth.net/listinfo.cgi/urth-urth.net\nor, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to\n urth-request at lists.urth.net\n\nYou can reach the person managing the list at\n urth-owner at lists.urth.net\n\nWhen replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific\nthan \"Re: Contents of Urth digest...\"\n\n\nToday's Topics:\n\n 1. Re: Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again) (Adam Thornton)\n 2. Re: Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again) (brunians at brunians.org)\n 3. Re: Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again) (brunians at brunians.org)\n 4. Re: Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again) (James Wynn)\n 5. Re: Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again) (David Stockhoff)\n 6. Re: Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again) (David Stockhoff)\n 7. Re: Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 30 (David Stockhoff)\n 8. Re: Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again) (David Stockhoff)\n\n\n----------------------------------------------------------------------\n\nMessage: 1\nDate: Tue, 19 May 2009 17:00:17 -0500\nFrom: Adam Thornton \nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: <7128DCCE-0E7C-4291-A0FA-D5855BC96A02 at io.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes\n\n\nOn May 19, 2009, at 4:56 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I calls them like I sees them. I prefer to look straight at things and\nname them plainly, rather than search for more comforting, euphemistic\nways to express plain reality." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Ah, but here is our fundamental disagreement: I don't think\n\"extortion\" is any closer to \"plain reality\" than \"dues.\"\n\nI am, in fact, arguing that the reverse is true. But then I believe\nwe probably, at heart, disagree on \"plain reality.\"\n\nAdam\n\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 2\nDate: Tue, 19 May 2009 18:03:48 -0400 (EDT)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: <14123.67.142.130.18.1242770628.squirrel at brunians.org>\nContent-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1\n\nYou're familiar with Thomas Jefferson, right Lane? They taught you about\nhim in law school or college or something, I am sure, and you are just\npretending to be ignorant for rhetorical effect.\n\nGo on with you: I am feeling favorably disposed towards you now and have\nno real desire to explain Jeffersonianism to you, almost certainly\nfalling\ninto one or more of your lawyerly traps along the way. I argue for fun,\nnot blood and would prefer not to engage with a professional unless you\ntie one lobe of your brain behind your back or something.\n\n\n\n...[W]hat country can preserve its liberties, if it's rulers are not\nwarned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of\nresistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as\nto the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost\nin a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from\ntime to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants.\nIt is its natural manure.\n\n-- Thomas Jefferson\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "So your democratically-elected government gets to serve at the\npleasure of a small but violent minority? I understand frustration\nwith graft and waste, but calling for rebellion against a lawfully-\nseated state for carrying out the will of society?\n\nAt some point, you realize the value in cooperation, community and\nshared society. All civilization is based on this premise, that\ntogether a people can accomplish what one alone cannot.\n\nThe substitution of civil government/society with a profit driven\nmarket removes this universally-agreed as beneficial goal of\ncooperation and replaced it with a unilateral goal of profit. As\nwealth cannot be created ex nihilo, profit must arise from a producer\ntaking more than a product is worth. This is only possible on a market\nwhere supply and demand are manipulated against the interest of the\nconsumer.\n\nThus, the market is merely the latest iteration of the master-slave\nrelation. It is the battlefield of class conflict. How does calling\ntaxes imposed by a lawful sovereign equal theft, but the creation of\nprofit not equal extortion by a self-selected, undemocratic oligarchy?\n\nIndividuals and individual liberty are only meaningful insofar as a\ncivil legal system ensures they are protected. Authoritarian abuses by\nright and left ignore this. Free markets actively surpress it by\neconomic manipulation.\n\nTell me again why I should kill lawfully-seated ministers of the civil\ngovernment to preserve the rights of the people exploiting me?\n\nSent from my iPhone\n\nOn May 19, 2009, at 4:36 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I said this in a recent post. I will expand upon it.\n\nTaxation, the extortion of money from the citizens, is permissible for\nthings that are necessary. My list of necessary things includes the\nmilitary and things related to the military, infrastructure and\ncertain\nkinds of research. I insist that the involuntary nature of taxation be\nexplicit and resist the inevitable attempts at expansion of the\nthings-to-be-paid-for-by-taxation.\n\nOf course, as a good Jeffersonian, I believe that from time to time\nit is\nnecessary to shoot the bastards and start over. We're not quite\nthere yet.\n\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "On May 19, 2009, at 4:19 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "But we (the people on the other side of the argument) are none of us\narguing for a complete lack of functional civil society and a\nHobbesian\nall-against-all. Were you under the impression that we were?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "I don't see how you can get from the position that all taxation is\ntheft to the position that some governments are legitimate without\ngiving up on the first one.\n\nAdam\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 3\nDate: Tue, 19 May 2009 18:05:56 -0400 (EDT)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: <2352.67.142.130.18.1242770756.squirrel at brunians.org>\nContent-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1\n\nReality is what doesn't go away when you stop believing in it.\n\n-- PKD (I think).\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On May 19, 2009, at 4:56 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I calls them like I sees them. I prefer to look straight at things and\nname them plainly, rather than search for more comforting, euphemistic\nways to express plain reality." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Ah, but here is our fundamental disagreement: I don't think\n\"extortion\" is any closer to \"plain reality\" than \"dues.\"\n\nI am, in fact, arguing that the reverse is true. But then I believe\nwe probably, at heart, disagree on \"plain reality.\"\n\nAdam\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Tue, 19 May 2009 17:06:05 -0500\nFrom: \"James Wynn\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=\"iso-8859-1\";\n reply-type=response\n\nAdam, in \"The Devil in a Forest\", Wolfe presents the issue moral terms.\nIf\nI'm benefiting from a service more than my neighbor, and also paying\nless\nfor that service than my neighbor, why is that less shameful than just\ngoing\nto his door and demanding the money?\nOkay. Here are your three options:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Adam sez:\nOf course, \"fund it to the same degree,\" and \"robbing from the rich to\ngive to the poor,\" each themselves admit multiple interpretations.\nOne way of \"funding it to the same degree\" would be to demand a flat\namount from each citizen." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "This is actually is the most fair way. But, that's asking way too much\nfairness from a society of Fallen human beings. On the other hand, if\nthe\npoor don't like it, I suppose they could move to Mogadishu." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "One way would be to impose the same percentage fee on each citizen,\nregardless of income. This is usually what Libertarians claim to like.\nHowever, such a plan ignores the (I think fairly important) observation\nthat the marginal value of money decreases the more of it you have." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Marginal value decreases for whom? Not to the people who work to earn\nit.\nYou're argument divorces the amount of money made from the people who\ncreated it. It assumes that a guy making $25K a year is exactly like the\nguy\nmaking $250K a year except that one happens to make less. It ignores the\nrisks the second guy took in capital, time, and effort in order to\ncreate\nthat wealth. It also ignores the fact that the first guy gets far more\nBENEFIT from non-essential government services that the second guy. Some\nwould say the differences therefore balance out so that both should pay\nthe\nsame rate.\n\nThe real reason has nothing to do with marginal values of money. It has\nto\ndo with practicality. These services are proposed to get a majority of\nthe\nvoting public to like them. So you give out benefits to a larger number\nand\nhave a smaller number pay the freight. No majority will not vote for 95%\nof\ngovernment services if they are seen as fee-for-service. You probably\nwouldn't. David Stackhoff implied that he found the idea increased taxes\nappealing because he didn't think he'd pay the bulk of them (or any of\nthem?)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Hence a third way would be to impose a tax that causes the same amount\n of\ninconvenience at all levels of income. This is approximately what\nprogressive income taxes attempt to do." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "How does a progressive tax provide \"the same amount of inconvenience at\nall\nlevels of income\"? Or do you mean \"we'll tax you more if you have more\nand\nwe'll do the same to other guy who has more too\"? What if we taxed every\none\nmaking $35K-$50K at 95% and everyone else at 15%. Is that equally\nlogical?\nBut we don't just tax based on income either, do we? Because this is\ndemocracy in action. The law-makers cut breaks for certain voting blocks\n(home-owners, parents, college students, and retirees) while busting\nothers\n(cigarette smokers and people who drive for a living)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "\"Robbing from the rich to give to the poor,\" is simply the same\n argument\nstood on its head, of course. Does taxation go from \"legitimate\" to\n\"robbery\" at a value derived from the absolute dollar value of the\ntax,\nfrom a percentage of income across all income ranges, or to a degree\nof\ninconvenience across all income ranges?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "How can I describe a progressive tax? Say five citizens get together to\nfund\na new well. Hmmm...they could all pay the same amount to dig it, or they\ncould all pay the same percentage of their wealth, OR....they could vote\nthat Moe here--who also has a lake on his property so he doesn't need\nthe\nwell---will pay for half of it because, after all, he can \"afford it\".\nHow\nis that different from a two foxes and a hen voting on what to have for\nsupper?\n\nJ.\n\n\n\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Tue, 19 May 2009 18:06:46 -0400\nFrom: David Stockhoff \nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nMessage-ID: <4A132D76.3090700 at verizon.net>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed\n\nYeah, Mao and Washington would have found much in common.\n\n\n--- On Tue, 5/19/09, brunians at brunians.org \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "From: brunians at brunians.org \nMao was a perceptive guy about some\nthings. Power and how to use it, for\ninstance. Decent poet also, I'm told.\n\nNot a very nice man, but pretty smart.\n\nIf three people as different as Mao, Washington and Geller\nagree about\nsomething, I'd say it's time to sit up and take notice.\n\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "If Mao said it, it must be true.\n\n------------------------------" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 090519-0, 05/19/2009\nTested on: 5/19/2009 6:06:48 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 6\nDate: Tue, 19 May 2009 18:08:42 -0400\nFrom: David Stockhoff \nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nMessage-ID: <4A132DEA.20907 at verizon.net>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed\n\nOf course you have.\n\n\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Tue, 19 May 2009 17:44:27 -0400 (EDT)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7505.67.142.130.18.1242771998.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-05-19T22:26:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 31", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0905191525k3932cd2qfc00117804dc6ea9@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm a Copperhead.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians, are you a bona fide Southerner, or is your term for the American\nCivil War an affectation?\n\nOn Tue, May 19, 2009 at 6:20 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Actually, the way you tell that it's getting close to shoot-the-bastards\ntime is that *everyone*, including the cops, is talking about it getting\nclose to shoot-the-bastards time, on one side of the argument or\nanother,\ndepending on the loyalties of the region that you are in. Anyone\ndisagrees\nthey keep quiet. That's how it was before the American Revolution and\nthat\nis how it was before the War Between The States.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Into the streets with your Robin Hood hats!\n\nTear down the SUVs! tear down the McDonalds! Unite as Brothers! ;)\nBurn the neocons at the stake like Giordano Bruno! Instatiate the\nGroup of Seventeen for all time!\n\n\nOn Tue, May 19, 2009 at 3:11 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Send Urth mailing list submissions to\n urth at lists.urth.net\n\nTo subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit\n http://lists.urth.net/listinfo.cgi/urth-urth.net\nor, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to\n urth-request at lists.urth.net\n\nYou can reach the person managing the list at\n urth-owner at lists.urth.net\n\nWhen replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific\nthan \"Re: Contents of Urth digest...\"\n\n\nToday's Topics:\n\n 1. Re: Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again) (Adam Thornton)\n 2. Re: Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "(brunians at brunians.org)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": " 3. Re: Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "(brunians at brunians.org)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": " 4. Re: Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again) (James Wynn)\n 5. Re: Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again) (David Stockhoff)\n 6. Re: Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again) (David Stockhoff)\n 7. Re: Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 30 (David Stockhoff)\n 8. Re: Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again) (David Stockhoff)\n\n\n----------------------------------------------------------------------\n\nMessage: 1\nDate: Tue, 19 May 2009 17:00:17 -0500\nFrom: Adam Thornton \nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: <7128DCCE-0E7C-4291-A0FA-D5855BC96A02 at io.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes\n\n\nOn May 19, 2009, at 4:56 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I calls them like I sees them. I prefer to look straight at things\nand\nname them plainly, rather than search for more comforting,\neuphemistic\nways to express plain reality." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Ah, but here is our fundamental disagreement: I don't think\n\"extortion\" is any closer to \"plain reality\" than \"dues.\"\n\nI am, in fact, arguing that the reverse is true. But then I believe\nwe probably, at heart, disagree on \"plain reality.\"\n\nAdam\n\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 2\nDate: Tue, 19 May 2009 18:03:48 -0400 (EDT)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: <14123.67.142.130.18.1242770628.squirrel at brunians.org>\nContent-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1\n\nYou're familiar with Thomas Jefferson, right Lane? They taught you\nabout\nhim in law school or college or something, I am sure, and you are\njust\npretending to be ignorant for rhetorical effect.\n\nGo on with you: I am feeling favorably disposed towards you now and\nhave\nno real desire to explain Jeffersonianism to you, almost certainly\nfalling\ninto one or more of your lawyerly traps along the way. I argue for\nfun,\nnot blood and would prefer not to engage with a professional unless\nyou\ntie one lobe of your brain behind your back or something.\n\n\n\n...[W]hat country can preserve its liberties, if it's rulers are not\nwarned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of\nresistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as\nto the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost\nin a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from\ntime to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants.\nIt is its natural manure.\n\n-- Thomas Jefferson\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "So your democratically-elected government gets to serve at the\npleasure of a small but violent minority? I understand frustration\nwith graft and waste, but calling for rebellion against a lawfully-\nseated state for carrying out the will of society?\n\nAt some point, you realize the value in cooperation, community and\nshared society. All civilization is based on this premise, that\ntogether a people can accomplish what one alone cannot.\n\nThe substitution of civil government/society with a profit driven\nmarket removes this universally-agreed as beneficial goal of\ncooperation and replaced it with a unilateral goal of profit. As\nwealth cannot be created ex nihilo, profit must arise from a\nproducer\ntaking more than a product is worth. This is only possible on a\nmarket\nwhere supply and demand are manipulated against the interest of the\nconsumer.\n\nThus, the market is merely the latest iteration of the master-slave\nrelation. It is the battlefield of class conflict. How does calling\ntaxes imposed by a lawful sovereign equal theft, but the creation of\nprofit not equal extortion by a self-selected, undemocratic\noligarchy?\n\nIndividuals and individual liberty are only meaningful insofar as a\ncivil legal system ensures they are protected. Authoritarian abuses\nby\nright and left ignore this. Free markets actively surpress it by\neconomic manipulation.\n\nTell me again why I should kill lawfully-seated ministers of the\ncivil\ngovernment to preserve the rights of the people exploiting me?\n\nSent from my iPhone\n\nOn May 19, 2009, at 4:36 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "I said this in a recent post. I will expand upon it.\n\nTaxation, the extortion of money from the citizens, is permissible\nfor\nthings that are necessary. My list of necessary things includes the\nmilitary and things related to the military, infrastructure and\ncertain\nkinds of research. I insist that the involuntary nature of taxation\nbe\nexplicit and resist the inevitable attempts at expansion of the\nthings-to-be-paid-for-by-taxation.\n\nOf course, as a good Jeffersonian, I believe that from time to time\nit is\nnecessary to shoot the bastards and start over. We're not quite\nthere yet.\n\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "On May 19, 2009, at 4:19 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "But we (the people on the other side of the argument) are none of\nus\narguing for a complete lack of functional civil society and a\nHobbesian\nall-against-all. Were you under the impression that we were?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "I don't see how you can get from the position that all taxation is\ntheft to the position that some governments are legitimate without\ngiving up on the first one.\n\nAdam\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 3\nDate: Tue, 19 May 2009 18:05:56 -0400 (EDT)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: <2352.67.142.130.18.1242770756.squirrel at brunians.org>\nContent-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1\n\nReality is what doesn't go away when you stop believing in it.\n\n-- PKD (I think).\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "On May 19, 2009, at 4:56 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "I calls them like I sees them. I prefer to look straight at things\nand\nname them plainly, rather than search for more comforting,\neuphemistic\nways to express plain reality." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Ah, but here is our fundamental disagreement: I don't think\n\"extortion\" is any closer to \"plain reality\" than \"dues.\"\n\nI am, in fact, arguing that the reverse is true. But then I believe\nwe probably, at heart, disagree on \"plain reality.\"\n\nAdam\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Tue, 19 May 2009 17:06:05 -0500\nFrom: \"James Wynn\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=\"iso-8859-1\";\n reply-type=response\n\nAdam, in \"The Devil in a Forest\", Wolfe presents the issue moral\nterms.\nIf\nI'm benefiting from a service more than my neighbor, and also paying\nless\nfor that service than my neighbor, why is that less shameful than\njust\ngoing\nto his door and demanding the money?\nOkay. Here are your three options:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Adam sez:\nOf course, \"fund it to the same degree,\" and \"robbing from the rich\nto\ngive to the poor,\" each themselves admit multiple interpretations.\nOne way of \"funding it to the same degree\" would be to demand a flat\namount from each citizen." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "This is actually is the most fair way. But, that's asking way too\nmuch\nfairness from a society of Fallen human beings. On the other hand, if\nthe\npoor don't like it, I suppose they could move to Mogadishu." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "One way would be to impose the same percentage fee on each citizen,\nregardless of income. This is usually what Libertarians claim to\nlike.\nHowever, such a plan ignores the (I think fairly important)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "observation\nthat the marginal value of money decreases the more of it you have." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Marginal value decreases for whom? Not to the people who work to earn\nit.\nYou're argument divorces the amount of money made from the people who\ncreated it. It assumes that a guy making $25K a year is exactly like\nthe\nguy\nmaking $250K a year except that one happens to make less. It ignores\nthe\nrisks the second guy took in capital, time, and effort in order to\ncreate\nthat wealth. It also ignores the fact that the first guy gets far\nmore\nBENEFIT from non-essential government services that the second guy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Some\nwould say the differences therefore balance out so that both should\npay\nthe\nsame rate." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "The real reason has nothing to do with marginal values of money. It\nhas\nto\ndo with practicality. These services are proposed to get a majority\nof\nthe\nvoting public to like them. So you give out benefits to a larger\nnumber\nand\nhave a smaller number pay the freight. No majority will not vote for\n95%\nof\ngovernment services if they are seen as fee-for-service. You\nprobably\nwouldn't. David Stackhoff implied that he found the idea increased\ntaxes\nappealing because he didn't think he'd pay the bulk of them (or any\nof\nthem?)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Hence a third way would be to impose a tax that causes the same\namount\n of\ninconvenience at all levels of income. This is approximately what\nprogressive income taxes attempt to do." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "How does a progressive tax provide \"the same amount of inconvenience\nat\nall\nlevels of income\"? Or do you mean \"we'll tax you more if you have\nmore\nand\nwe'll do the same to other guy who has more too\"? What if we taxed\nevery\none\nmaking $35K-$50K at 95% and everyone else at 15%. Is that equally\nlogical?\nBut we don't just tax based on income either, do we? Because this is\ndemocracy in action. The law-makers cut breaks for certain voting\nblocks\n(home-owners, parents, college students, and retirees) while busting\nothers\n(cigarette smokers and people who drive for a living)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "\"Robbing from the rich to give to the poor,\" is simply the same\n argument\nstood on its head, of course. Does taxation go from \"legitimate\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "to\n\"robbery\" at a value derived from the absolute dollar value of the\ntax,\nfrom a percentage of income across all income ranges, or to a\ndegree\nof\ninconvenience across all income ranges?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "How can I describe a progressive tax? Say five citizens get together\nto\nfund\na new well. Hmmm...they could all pay the same amount to dig it, or\nthey\ncould all pay the same percentage of their wealth, OR....they could\nvote\nthat Moe here--who also has a lake on his property so he doesn't need\nthe\nwell---will pay for half of it because, after all, he can \"afford\nit\".\nHow\nis that different from a two foxes and a hen voting on what to have\nfor\nsupper?\n\nJ.\n\n\n\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Tue, 19 May 2009 18:06:46 -0400\nFrom: David Stockhoff \nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nMessage-ID: <4A132D76.3090700 at verizon.net>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed\n\nYeah, Mao and Washington would have found much in common.\n\n\n--- On Tue, 5/19/09, brunians at brunians.org \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "From: brunians at brunians.org \nMao was a perceptive guy about some\nthings. Power and how to use it, for\ninstance. Decent poet also, I'm told.\n\nNot a very nice man, but pretty smart.\n\nIf three people as different as Mao, Washington and Geller\nagree about\nsomething, I'd say it's time to sit up and take notice.\n\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "If Mao said it, it must be true.\n\n------------------------------" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 090519-0, 05/19/2009\nTested on: 5/19/2009 6:06:48 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 6\nDate: Tue, 19 May 2009 18:08:42 -0400\nFrom: David Stockhoff \nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nMessage-ID: <4A132DEA.20907 at verizon.net>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed\n\nOf course you have.\n\n\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Tue, 19 May 2009 17:44:27 -0400 (EDT)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0905191537n66f10eeftcae2f5763cb1eb2f@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-05-19T22:37:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 31", "in_reply_to": "<7505.67.142.130.18.1242771998.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I take it, then, that although you believe that war can be justified, you\ndon't believe that the American Civil War (from the Yankee side, anyway) was\nsuch an instance. Is that fair?\n\nI am probably not far from some of your views, but you don't do yourself\nmuch of a favor by taking such out-of-the-mainstream positions and defending\nthem so aggressively." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 6:26 PM, wrote:\n\nI'm a Copperhead.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "brunians, are you a bona fide Southerner, or is your term for the\nAmerican\nCivil War an affectation?\n\nOn Tue, May 19, 2009 at 6:20 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Actually, the way you tell that it's getting close to shoot-the-bastards\ntime is that *everyone*, including the cops, is talking about it getting\nclose to shoot-the-bastards time, on one side of the argument or\nanother,\ndepending on the loyalties of the region that you are in. Anyone\ndisagrees\nthey keep quiet. That's how it was before the American Revolution and\nthat\nis how it was before the War Between The States.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Into the streets with your Robin Hood hats!\n\nTear down the SUVs! tear down the McDonalds! Unite as Brothers! ;)\nBurn the neocons at the stake like Giordano Bruno! Instatiate the\nGroup of Seventeen for all time!\n\n\nOn Tue, May 19, 2009 at 3:11 PM, \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Send Urth mailing list submissions to\n urth at lists.urth.net\n\nTo subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit\n http://lists.urth.net/listinfo.cgi/urth-urth.net\nor, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to\n urth-request at lists.urth.net\n\nYou can reach the person managing the list at\n urth-owner at lists.urth.net\n\nWhen replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific\nthan \"Re: Contents of Urth digest...\"\n\n\nToday's Topics:\n\n 1. Re: Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again) (Adam Thornton)\n 2. Re: Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "(brunians at brunians.org)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": " 3. Re: Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "(brunians at brunians.org)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": " 4. Re: Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again) (James Wynn)\n 5. Re: Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again) (David Stockhoff)\n 6. Re: Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again) (David Stockhoff)\n 7. Re: Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 30 (David Stockhoff)\n 8. Re: Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again) (David Stockhoff)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "----------------------------------------------------------------------" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Message: 1\nDate: Tue, 19 May 2009 17:00:17 -0500\nFrom: Adam Thornton \nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: <7128DCCE-0E7C-4291-A0FA-D5855BC96A02 at io.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes\n\n\nOn May 19, 2009, at 4:56 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "I calls them like I sees them. I prefer to look straight at things\nand\nname them plainly, rather than search for more comforting,\neuphemistic\nways to express plain reality." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Ah, but here is our fundamental disagreement: I don't think\n\"extortion\" is any closer to \"plain reality\" than \"dues.\"\n\nI am, in fact, arguing that the reverse is true. But then I believe\nwe probably, at heart, disagree on \"plain reality.\"\n\nAdam\n\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 2\nDate: Tue, 19 May 2009 18:03:48 -0400 (EDT)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: <14123.67.142.130.18.1242770628.squirrel at brunians.org>\nContent-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1\n\nYou're familiar with Thomas Jefferson, right Lane? They taught you\nabout\nhim in law school or college or something, I am sure, and you are\njust\npretending to be ignorant for rhetorical effect.\n\nGo on with you: I am feeling favorably disposed towards you now and\nhave\nno real desire to explain Jeffersonianism to you, almost certainly\nfalling\ninto one or more of your lawyerly traps along the way. I argue for\nfun,\nnot blood and would prefer not to engage with a professional unless\nyou\ntie one lobe of your brain behind your back or something.\n\n\n\n...[W]hat country can preserve its liberties, if it's rulers are not\nwarned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of\nresistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as\nto the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost\nin a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from\ntime to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants.\nIt is its natural manure.\n\n-- Thomas Jefferson\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "So your democratically-elected government gets to serve at the\npleasure of a small but violent minority? I understand frustration\nwith graft and waste, but calling for rebellion against a lawfully-\nseated state for carrying out the will of society?\n\nAt some point, you realize the value in cooperation, community and\nshared society. All civilization is based on this premise, that\ntogether a people can accomplish what one alone cannot.\n\nThe substitution of civil government/society with a profit driven\nmarket removes this universally-agreed as beneficial goal of\ncooperation and replaced it with a unilateral goal of profit. As\nwealth cannot be created ex nihilo, profit must arise from a\nproducer\ntaking more than a product is worth. This is only possible on a\nmarket\nwhere supply and demand are manipulated against the interest of the\nconsumer.\n\nThus, the market is merely the latest iteration of the master-slave\nrelation. It is the battlefield of class conflict. How does calling\ntaxes imposed by a lawful sovereign equal theft, but the creation of\nprofit not equal extortion by a self-selected, undemocratic\noligarchy?\n\nIndividuals and individual liberty are only meaningful insofar as a\ncivil legal system ensures they are protected. Authoritarian abuses\nby\nright and left ignore this. Free markets actively surpress it by\neconomic manipulation.\n\nTell me again why I should kill lawfully-seated ministers of the\ncivil\ngovernment to preserve the rights of the people exploiting me?\n\nSent from my iPhone\n\nOn May 19, 2009, at 4:36 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "I said this in a recent post. I will expand upon it.\n\nTaxation, the extortion of money from the citizens, is permissible\nfor\nthings that are necessary. My list of necessary things includes the\nmilitary and things related to the military, infrastructure and\ncertain\nkinds of research. I insist that the involuntary nature of taxation\nbe\nexplicit and resist the inevitable attempts at expansion of the\nthings-to-be-paid-for-by-taxation.\n\nOf course, as a good Jeffersonian, I believe that from time to time\nit is\nnecessary to shoot the bastards and start over. We're not quite\nthere yet.\n\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "On May 19, 2009, at 4:19 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "But we (the people on the other side of the argument) are none of\nus\narguing for a complete lack of functional civil society and a\nHobbesian\nall-against-all. Were you under the impression that we were?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "I don't see how you can get from the position that all taxation is\ntheft to the position that some governments are legitimate without\ngiving up on the first one.\n\nAdam\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 3\nDate: Tue, 19 May 2009 18:05:56 -0400 (EDT)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: <2352.67.142.130.18.1242770756.squirrel at brunians.org>\nContent-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1\n\nReality is what doesn't go away when you stop believing in it.\n\n-- PKD (I think).\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "On May 19, 2009, at 4:56 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "I calls them like I sees them. I prefer to look straight at things\nand\nname them plainly, rather than search for more comforting,\neuphemistic\nways to express plain reality." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Ah, but here is our fundamental disagreement: I don't think\n\"extortion\" is any closer to \"plain reality\" than \"dues.\"\n\nI am, in fact, arguing that the reverse is true. But then I believe\nwe probably, at heart, disagree on \"plain reality.\"\n\nAdam\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Tue, 19 May 2009 17:06:05 -0500\nFrom: \"James Wynn\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=\"iso-8859-1\";\n reply-type=response\n\nAdam, in \"The Devil in a Forest\", Wolfe presents the issue moral\nterms.\nIf\nI'm benefiting from a service more than my neighbor, and also paying\nless\nfor that service than my neighbor, why is that less shameful than\njust\ngoing\nto his door and demanding the money?\nOkay. Here are your three options:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Adam sez:\nOf course, \"fund it to the same degree,\" and \"robbing from the rich\nto\ngive to the poor,\" each themselves admit multiple interpretations.\nOne way of \"funding it to the same degree\" would be to demand a flat\namount from each citizen." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "This is actually is the most fair way. But, that's asking way too\nmuch\nfairness from a society of Fallen human beings. On the other hand, if\nthe\npoor don't like it, I suppose they could move to Mogadishu." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "One way would be to impose the same percentage fee on each citizen,\nregardless of income. This is usually what Libertarians claim to\nlike.\nHowever, such a plan ignores the (I think fairly important)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "observation\nthat the marginal value of money decreases the more of it you have." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Marginal value decreases for whom? Not to the people who work to earn\nit.\nYou're argument divorces the amount of money made from the people who\ncreated it. It assumes that a guy making $25K a year is exactly like\nthe\nguy\nmaking $250K a year except that one happens to make less. It ignores\nthe\nrisks the second guy took in capital, time, and effort in order to\ncreate\nthat wealth. It also ignores the fact that the first guy gets far\nmore\nBENEFIT from non-essential government services that the second guy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Some\nwould say the differences therefore balance out so that both should\npay\nthe\nsame rate." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "The real reason has nothing to do with marginal values of money. It\nhas\nto\ndo with practicality. These services are proposed to get a majority\nof\nthe\nvoting public to like them. So you give out benefits to a larger\nnumber\nand\nhave a smaller number pay the freight. No majority will not vote for\n95%\nof\ngovernment services if they are seen as fee-for-service. You\nprobably\nwouldn't. David Stackhoff implied that he found the idea increased\ntaxes\nappealing because he didn't think he'd pay the bulk of them (or any\nof\nthem?)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Hence a third way would be to impose a tax that causes the same\namount\n of\ninconvenience at all levels of income. This is approximately what\nprogressive income taxes attempt to do." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "How does a progressive tax provide \"the same amount of inconvenience\nat\nall\nlevels of income\"? Or do you mean \"we'll tax you more if you have\nmore\nand\nwe'll do the same to other guy who has more too\"? What if we taxed\nevery\none\nmaking $35K-$50K at 95% and everyone else at 15%. Is that equally\nlogical?\nBut we don't just tax based on income either, do we? Because this is\ndemocracy in action. The law-makers cut breaks for certain voting\nblocks\n(home-owners, parents, college students, and retirees) while busting\nothers\n(cigarette smokers and people who drive for a living)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "\"Robbing from the rich to give to the poor,\" is simply the same\n argument\nstood on its head, of course. Does taxation go from \"legitimate\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "to\n\"robbery\" at a value derived from the absolute dollar value of the\ntax,\nfrom a percentage of income across all income ranges, or to a\ndegree\nof\ninconvenience across all income ranges?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "How can I describe a progressive tax? Say five citizens get together\nto\nfund\na new well. Hmmm...they could all pay the same amount to dig it, or\nthey\ncould all pay the same percentage of their wealth, OR....they could\nvote\nthat Moe here--who also has a lake on his property so he doesn't need\nthe\nwell---will pay for half of it because, after all, he can \"afford\nit\".\nHow\nis that different from a two foxes and a hen voting on what to have\nfor\nsupper?\n\nJ.\n\n\n\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Tue, 19 May 2009 18:06:46 -0400\nFrom: David Stockhoff \nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nMessage-ID: <4A132D76.3090700 at verizon.net>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed\n\nYeah, Mao and Washington would have found much in common.\n\n\n--- On Tue, 5/19/09, brunians at brunians.org \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "From: brunians at brunians.org \nMao was a perceptive guy about some\nthings. Power and how to use it, for\ninstance. Decent poet also, I'm told.\n\nNot a very nice man, but pretty smart.\n\nIf three people as different as Mao, Washington and Geller\nagree about\nsomething, I'd say it's time to sit up and take notice.\n\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "If Mao said it, it must be true.\n\n------------------------------" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 090519-0, 05/19/2009\nTested on: 5/19/2009 6:06:48 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 6\nDate: Tue, 19 May 2009 18:08:42 -0400\nFrom: David Stockhoff \nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nMessage-ID: <4A132DEA.20907 at verizon.net>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed\n\nOf course you have.\n\n\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Tue, 19 May 2009 17:44:27 -0400 (EDT)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-05-19T22:38:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 31", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0905191525k3932cd2qfc00117804dc6ea9@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 19, 2009, at 5:25 PM, John Watkins wrote:\nbrunians, are you a bona fide Southerner, or is your term for the \nAmerican Civil War an affectation?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He didn't call it the War of Yankee Aggression, now did he?\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<84EF7CEE69A547A3B2317E899DE09AD7@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-05-19T23:43:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 31", "in_reply_to": "<4A1330B9.1080504@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I said:\n\"The Devil in a Forest\", Wolfe presents the issue moral terms. If I'm \nbenefiting from a service more than my neighbor, and also paying less for \nthat service than my neighbor, why is that less shameful than just going to \nhis door and demanding the money?\nOkay. Here are your three options:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stackhoff replied:\nIf you keep thinking in terms of your individual, personal,\nexclusive benefit, you will never grasp the concept of the public good." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I understand public good. I also understand the true meaning of shared \nresponsibility, and that there is no free lunch.\nLet me re-iterate the analogy I offered in the post you responded to:\n\n\"Say five citizens get together to fund\na new well. Hmmm...they could all pay the same amount to dig it, or they\ncould all pay the same percentage of their wealth, OR....they could vote\nthat Moe here--who also has a lake on his property so he doesn't need the\nwell---will pay for half of it because, after all, he can \"afford it\". How\nis that different from a two foxes and a hen voting on what to have for\nsupper?\"\n\nOf course, in a community of five this would never happen. The four would be \nashamed to force such an arrangement. But --as with Gloin in tDiaF who \nagreed to rob Phillip so long as Phillip would never know it was him--we do \nthis all the time in the privacy of the voting booth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I said:\nThis is actually is the most fair way. But, that's asking way too much \nfairness from a society of Fallen human beings. On the other hand, if the \npoor don't like it, I suppose they could move to Mogadishu." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, in their yachts." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, the Boat People of Vietnam were a lot more destitute than the American \npoor, and somehow managed to pull off something similar." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You're ignoring the fact that most personal wealth in the US is inherited.\nYou're also ignoring racism and classism. And your assumption that the \nfirst guy gets more benefit from services\nis unfounded and unproven. _" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I do not believe the first statement is true. I'd like to see the numbers to \nback it up. I've heard just the opposite. Racism is illegal. I'm not sure \nhow you gauge classism, but I'm sure I've been as much a victim of it as \nanyone.\nAs for my assumption, who gets more benefit from a public transportation? \nThe top 1% who pay 22% of federal income taxes? The top 5% who pay 60%? Who \nbenefits the most from emergency room care? Who benefits the most from \neducation subsidies? Who benefits from public shelters, free public schools, \nand Earned Income Tax Credits?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I asserted:\nDavid Stackhoff implied that he found the idea increased taxes appealing \nbecause he didn't think he'd pay the bulk of them (or any of them?)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I said nothing like that. I said I WANT TO PAY MORE TAXES. I want a bigger, \nbetter public \"space.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was drawing from this statement:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"As a result, I will pay more taxes. I want to pay more taxes.\nWhy? Because it's a deal. Because my city is broke. Because I believe in \nthe public good. Because I'm not rich.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I took that to mean you expected to receive more from \"the public space\" \nthan the value of the taxes you were paying. Somebody would have to make up \nthat per-person difference. Sorry if I took that wrong.\n\nBut, you don't need to pass laws to pay more taxes. Just figure a what \npercentage of your income you are paying now and add 10%. I've never known a \ngovernment to turn down money.\n\nJ.\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<9798.67.142.130.18.1242777917.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-05-20T00:05:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 31", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0905191537n66f10eeftcae2f5763cb1eb2f@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I take it, then, that although you believe that war can be justified, you\ndon't believe that the American Civil War (from the Yankee side, anyway)\nwas such an instance." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know if saying that 'war is sometimes necessary' is the same thing\nas saying that 'war can be justified'.\n\nIt would take a page and a half for me to explain my views on the 1860's\nconflict." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is that fair?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lincoln's idea was, let's have one war now instead of a war every thirty\nto fifty years forever. That's pretty sensible.\n\nMy position is that it is that people should be secure in the possession\nof their property, and if you are going to change the definition of\nproperty you need to compensate those who will lose by it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I am probably not far from some of your views, but you don't do yourself\nmuch of a favor by taking such out-of-the-mainstream positions and\ndefending them so aggressively." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Everyone's got to have a hobby.\n\nIf too many people start agreeing with me I have to stop and look\ncarefully at myself to see what I am doing wrong.\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370905191707p379be3a3g61bb203df9ebf06b@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-05-20T00:07:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 31", "in_reply_to": "<9798.67.142.130.18.1242777917.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 5:05 PM, wrote:\nMy position is that it is that people should be secure in the possession\nof their property, and if you are going to change the definition of\nproperty you need to compensate those who will lose by it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps you can bolster this by\n\nA) defining \"property,\" and\nB) explaining whence the right to have and be secure in it derives,\nparticularly if you can do so without reference to any government or\ncontrait sociale." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<31181E22-ED9A-4F27-8902-8DE83730C08B@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-05-20T00:08:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 31", "in_reply_to": "<84EF7CEE69A547A3B2317E899DE09AD7@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 19, 2009, at 6:43 PM, James Wynn wrote:\n\nBut, you don't need to pass laws to pay more taxes. Just figure a \nwhat percentage of your income you are paying now and add 10%. I've \nnever known a government to turn down money." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh, actually, the IRS will refund you money if they audit you and they \nthink you overpaid.\n\nI've only ever had it in the context of an audit where I *did* owe \nthem money, but while they were pointing out that I didn't pay \nsufficient taxes over on Subpart A, they found out that I overpaid on \nSubpart B and gave me that amount back. And, to be fair, they were \nright about Subpart A.\n\nOf course, the fact that someone who is highly numerate and well- \neducated is routinely reduced to a gibbering wreck by tax forms, and \ncan't get them right, is evidence that something is rotten in the \nstate of Tax Codes. There's no good reason for it to be that difficult.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<10711.67.142.130.18.1242778670.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-05-20T00:17:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 31", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370905191707p379be3a3g61bb203df9ebf06b@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Tell us about the money, Dan'l.\n\nWhere does money come from again?\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 5:05 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "My position is that it is that people should be secure in the possession\nof their property, and if you are going to change the definition of\nproperty you need to compensate those who will lose by it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps you can bolster this by\n\nA) defining \"property,\" and\nB) explaining whence the right to have and be secure in it derives,\nparticularly if you can do so without reference to any government or\ncontrait sociale.\n\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<91EBA8C7-A669-4EE5-BF9E-97AF709FD086@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-05-20T00:35:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 31", "in_reply_to": "<10711.67.142.130.18.1242778670.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 19, 2009, at 7:17 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nTell us about the money, Dan'l.\n\nWhere does money come from again?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hey, I'll take a crack at this one. The short answer is, \"Money comes \nfrom trust.\"\n\nMoney initially comes about because direct barter is *really damn \ninconvenient*, and things like cows aren't particularly fungible and \ntend to lose a lot of their value when divided.\n\nThe first thing to try is that you trade a big, heavy, hairy, smelly \ncow for a few ounces of something that is portable, doesn't spoil, and \nis in short supply, like gold. Which is great, as long as someone \nelse wants gold about as bad as you wanted gold for your cow.\n\nBut then you have the problem that unscrupulous bastards will start \nadulterating the rare, precious commodity with something more \nplentiful, so your two ounces of gold turn out to be gold mixed with \nsome amount of lead or something.\n\nNow, it's tough to detect debased currency. Ways to assay it turn out \nto be inconvenient, expensive, and/or processes that require specific, \nskilled knowledge. And obviously you can't just trust that the thing \nsomeone just handed you is in fact the proper amount of the precious \ncommodity he says it is, because there's a huge incentive for him to \ncheat.\n\nSo then states get into the act. They declare that they have a \nmonopoly on money, and they make coinage, and they do so using tools \nthat are fairly expensive and inconvenient to duplicate, and they do \nthings like mill the edges so it's pretty evident if a coin has been \nshaved. And then they back up their monopoly on the monetary supply \nwith the threat of awful things happening to you if you try to \ncompete, either by starting your own competing currency or \nadulterating their currency. What do the people using the currency \nget out of this? Why, they get the state's assurance that the money \nhas however much precious material in it, and that it is therefore \nguaranteed to be good for something.\n\nOf course, governments being what they are, THOSE fuckers debase the \ncurrency and cut it with nickel or whatever. But the funny thing is, \nit turns out that if everyone just keeps on acting as if the money \n*were* worth what it's supposed to be worth, things continue running \nOK. This is crucial.\n\nSo, after a while, there becomes a need for a couple more refinements: \n1) it's really tough to carry around six thousand pounds of gold coin-- \nif you could even find it--if you want to build a new castle, or put \ntogether an army, or something. So then you get state-issued \nbanknotes, which you CAN redeem for some amount of precious-metal (or \nagreed-upon-it's-just-as-good-as-silver-no-really) coin. You also get \nmerchants agreeing to extend each other credit, which doesn't cut into \nthe state currency monopoly, because the credit isn't actually \nconverted to coin until it's redeemed.\n\nAnd things go on in this way for a while, until governments realize, \n\"well, crap, there's practically nothing of value in this coinage \nanyway...let's just go off the gold standard, shall we?\" And at that \npoint, money is money *BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT SAYS SO*, and \nsecondarily (but still importantly) because the government has the \nimplicit threat of violence to back it up if you say, \"no, that's not \nreally 1/200th of a cow, that's just a piece of paper with some green \nink on it.\"\n\nAnd even this works OK for a while, until so much money has been made \nup in notional trades and the extension of notional credit that when \nsomeone tries to call in a debt everyone stands around looking \nembarrassed and then eventually admits that there isn't any real value \nunderpinning anything. And of course then no one trusts anyone \nanymore, money isn't worth anything, and those people who have fertile \nland and weapons to defend it look pretty smart.\n\nAnd then you have:\n\nhttp://www.dilbert.com/2009-05-10/\n\nAnd that, boys and girls, is how we got here today.\n\nMore questions?\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4A1351DE.6020707@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-05-20T00:42:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 31", "in_reply_to": "<91EBA8C7-A669-4EE5-BF9E-97AF709FD086@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, I saw that one. Ah, the eternal wisdom of Dilbert." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Tue, 19 May 2009 19:35:38 -0500\nFrom: Adam Thornton \nSubject: Re: (urth) Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 31\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: <91EBA8C7-A669-4EE5-BF9E-97AF709FD086 at io.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes\n\nAnd then you have:\n\nhttp://www.dilbert.com/2009-05-10/\n\nAnd that, boys and girls, is how we got here today.\n\nMore questions?\n\nAdam\n\n\n------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<12333.67.142.130.18.1242780285.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-05-20T00:44:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 31", "in_reply_to": "<91EBA8C7-A669-4EE5-BF9E-97AF709FD086@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sorry, this is just not as amusing as Dan'l's version.\n\nIt's only somewhat inaccurate instead of where-the-hell-did-that-come-from\nbatshit wrongo-wrong.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 19, 2009, at 7:17 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Tell us about the money, Dan'l.\n\nWhere does money come from again?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hey, I'll take a crack at this one. The short answer is, \"Money comes\nfrom trust.\"\n\nMoney initially comes about because direct barter is *really damn\ninconvenient*, and things like cows aren't particularly fungible and\ntend to lose a lot of their value when divided.\n\nThe first thing to try is that you trade a big, heavy, hairy, smelly\ncow for a few ounces of something that is portable, doesn't spoil, and\nis in short supply, like gold. Which is great, as long as someone\nelse wants gold about as bad as you wanted gold for your cow.\n\nBut then you have the problem that unscrupulous bastards will start\nadulterating the rare, precious commodity with something more\nplentiful, so your two ounces of gold turn out to be gold mixed with\nsome amount of lead or something.\n\nNow, it's tough to detect debased currency. Ways to assay it turn out\nto be inconvenient, expensive, and/or processes that require specific,\nskilled knowledge. And obviously you can't just trust that the thing\nsomeone just handed you is in fact the proper amount of the precious\ncommodity he says it is, because there's a huge incentive for him to\ncheat.\n\nSo then states get into the act. They declare that they have a\nmonopoly on money, and they make coinage, and they do so using tools\nthat are fairly expensive and inconvenient to duplicate, and they do\nthings like mill the edges so it's pretty evident if a coin has been\nshaved. And then they back up their monopoly on the monetary supply\nwith the threat of awful things happening to you if you try to\ncompete, either by starting your own competing currency or\nadulterating their currency. What do the people using the currency\nget out of this? Why, they get the state's assurance that the money\nhas however much precious material in it, and that it is therefore\nguaranteed to be good for something.\n\nOf course, governments being what they are, THOSE fuckers debase the\ncurrency and cut it with nickel or whatever. But the funny thing is,\nit turns out that if everyone just keeps on acting as if the money\n*were* worth what it's supposed to be worth, things continue running\nOK. This is crucial.\n\nSo, after a while, there becomes a need for a couple more refinements:\n1) it's really tough to carry around six thousand pounds of gold coin--\nif you could even find it--if you want to build a new castle, or put\ntogether an army, or something. So then you get state-issued\nbanknotes, which you CAN redeem for some amount of precious-metal (or\nagreed-upon-it's-just-as-good-as-silver-no-really) coin. You also get\nmerchants agreeing to extend each other credit, which doesn't cut into\nthe state currency monopoly, because the credit isn't actually\nconverted to coin until it's redeemed.\n\nAnd things go on in this way for a while, until governments realize,\n\"well, crap, there's practically nothing of value in this coinage\nanyway...let's just go off the gold standard, shall we?\" And at that\npoint, money is money *BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT SAYS SO*, and\nsecondarily (but still importantly) because the government has the\nimplicit threat of violence to back it up if you say, \"no, that's not\nreally 1/200th of a cow, that's just a piece of paper with some green\nink on it.\"\n\nAnd even this works OK for a while, until so much money has been made\nup in notional trades and the extension of notional credit that when\nsomeone tries to call in a debt everyone stands around looking\nembarrassed and then eventually admits that there isn't any real value\nunderpinning anything. And of course then no one trusts anyone\nanymore, money isn't worth anything, and those people who have fertile\nland and weapons to defend it look pretty smart.\n\nAnd then you have:\n\nhttp://www.dilbert.com/2009-05-10/\n\nAnd that, boys and girls, is how we got here today.\n\nMore questions?\n\nAdam\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4A135AD4.6070602@comcast.net>", "from": { "name": "Steven Hall", "address": "sghall at comcast.net" }, "date": "2009-05-20T01:20:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 31", "in_reply_to": "<91EBA8C7-A669-4EE5-BF9E-97AF709FD086@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thank you, I enjoyed that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Adam Thornton wrote:\nOn May 19, 2009, at 7:17 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Tell us about the money, Dan'l.\n\nWhere does money come from again?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hey, I'll take a crack at this one. The short answer is, \"Money comes \nfrom trust.\"\n\nMoney initially comes about because direct barter is *really damn \ninconvenient*, and things like cows aren't particularly fungible and \ntend to lose a lot of their value when divided.\n\nThe first thing to try is that you trade a big, heavy, hairy, smelly cow \nfor a few ounces of something that is portable, doesn't spoil, and is in \nshort supply, like gold. Which is great, as long as someone else wants \ngold about as bad as you wanted gold for your cow.\n\nBut then you have the problem that unscrupulous bastards will start \nadulterating the rare, precious commodity with something more plentiful, \nso your two ounces of gold turn out to be gold mixed with some amount of \nlead or something.\n\nNow, it's tough to detect debased currency. Ways to assay it turn out \nto be inconvenient, expensive, and/or processes that require specific, \nskilled knowledge. And obviously you can't just trust that the thing \nsomeone just handed you is in fact the proper amount of the precious \ncommodity he says it is, because there's a huge incentive for him to cheat.\n\nSo then states get into the act. They declare that they have a monopoly \non money, and they make coinage, and they do so using tools that are \nfairly expensive and inconvenient to duplicate, and they do things like \nmill the edges so it's pretty evident if a coin has been shaved. And \nthen they back up their monopoly on the monetary supply with the threat \nof awful things happening to you if you try to compete, either by \nstarting your own competing currency or adulterating their currency. \nWhat do the people using the currency get out of this? Why, they get \nthe state's assurance that the money has however much precious material \nin it, and that it is therefore guaranteed to be good for something.\n\nOf course, governments being what they are, THOSE fuckers debase the \ncurrency and cut it with nickel or whatever. But the funny thing is, it \nturns out that if everyone just keeps on acting as if the money *were* \nworth what it's supposed to be worth, things continue running OK. This \nis crucial.\n\nSo, after a while, there becomes a need for a couple more refinements: \n1) it's really tough to carry around six thousand pounds of gold \ncoin--if you could even find it--if you want to build a new castle, or \nput together an army, or something. So then you get state-issued \nbanknotes, which you CAN redeem for some amount of precious-metal (or \nagreed-upon-it's-just-as-good-as-silver-no-really) coin. You also get \nmerchants agreeing to extend each other credit, which doesn't cut into \nthe state currency monopoly, because the credit isn't actually converted \nto coin until it's redeemed.\n\nAnd things go on in this way for a while, until governments realize, \n\"well, crap, there's practically nothing of value in this coinage \nanyway...let's just go off the gold standard, shall we?\" And at that \npoint, money is money *BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT SAYS SO*, and secondarily \n(but still importantly) because the government has the implicit threat \nof violence to back it up if you say, \"no, that's not really 1/200th of \na cow, that's just a piece of paper with some green ink on it.\"\n\nAnd even this works OK for a while, until so much money has been made up \nin notional trades and the extension of notional credit that when \nsomeone tries to call in a debt everyone stands around looking \nembarrassed and then eventually admits that there isn't any real value \nunderpinning anything. And of course then no one trusts anyone anymore, \nmoney isn't worth anything, and those people who have fertile land and \nweapons to defend it look pretty smart.\n\nAnd then you have:\n\nhttp://www.dilbert.com/2009-05-10/\n\nAnd that, boys and girls, is how we got here today.\n\nMore questions?\n\nAdam\n_______________________________________________" } ] } ] }