{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5442", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5442, "subject": "Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 36", "messages": 10, "voices": 7, "first": "2009-05-20T00:39:40+00:00", "last": "2009-05-21T22:02:58+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Robin Dunn", "address": "bigbadgerjohnny at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-05-20T00:39:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 36", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "At the risk of sounding like a nutty conspiracy theorist, take the\ntightening of borders, the expansion of military expenditures, the\nmilitarization of the boy scouts, and what do you have? A nice\nrevolution in the making.\n\nIf the Democrats don't stop resembling the Republicans, eventually\nthose old Gutenberg presses are going to need to kick some serious ass\nto combat the non-network neutral Cox empire.\n\nFor every man who \"pull himself up by his own bootstraps\" there are\nhundreds who could NEVER do that, because they don't have the right\nadvantages.\n\nFor someone with ALL the advantagees, who elects officials who protect\nthose advantages, and then constructs ideologies and talk radio\nstations to create an endless echo chamber of lies, is it really wrong\nfor the guy with NO advantages to pull you out of your SUV, stomp on\nyour cel phone, relieve you of your wallet, and bruise a few of your\nribs?\n\nCertainly Congress is not going to be hitting you in the ribs any time\nsoon. And it needs to be done. :)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 3:37 PM, wrote:\nSend Urth mailing list submissions to\n? ? ? ?urth at lists.urth.net\n\nTo subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit\n? ? ? ?http://lists.urth.net/listinfo.cgi/urth-urth.net\nor, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to\n? ? ? ?urth-request at lists.urth.net\n\nYou can reach the person managing the list at\n? ? ? ?urth-owner at lists.urth.net\n\nWhen replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific\nthan \"Re: Contents of Urth digest...\"\n\n\nToday's Topics:\n\n? 1. Re: ?Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 31 (John Watkins)\n\n\n----------------------------------------------------------------------\n\nMessage: 1\nDate: Tue, 19 May 2009 18:37:12 -0400\nFrom: John Watkins \nSubject: Re: (urth) Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 31\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID:\n? ? ? ?<93d4039f0905191537n66f10eeftcae2f5763cb1eb2f at mail.gmail.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nI take it, then, that although you believe that war can be justified, you\ndon't believe that the American Civil War (from the Yankee side, anyway) was\nsuch an instance. “Is that fair”\n\nI am probably not far from some of your views, but you don't do yourself\nmuch of a favor by taking such out-of-the-mainstream positions and defending\nthem so aggressively.\n\nOn Tue, May 19, 2009 at 6:26 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm a Copperhead.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "brunians, are you a bona fide Southerner, or is your term for the\nAmerican\nCivil War an affectation?\n\nOn Tue, May 19, 2009 at 6:20 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Actually, the way you tell that it's getting close to shoot-the-bastards\ntime is that *everyone*, including the cops, is talking about it getting\nclose to shoot-the-bastards time, on one side of the argument or\nanother,\ndepending on the loyalties of the region that you are in. Anyone\ndisagrees\nthey keep quiet. That's how it was before the American Revolution and\nthat\nis how it was before the War Between The States.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Into the streets with your Robin Hood hats!\n\nTear down the SUVs! ?tear down the McDonalds! ?Unite as Brothers! ;)\nBurn the neocons at the stake like Giordano Bruno! ? Instatiate the\nGroup of Seventeen for all time!\n\n\nOn Tue, May 19, 2009 at 3:11 PM, ?\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Send Urth mailing list submissions to\n? ? ? ?urth at lists.urth.net\n\nTo subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit\n? ? ? ?http://lists.urth.net/listinfo.cgi/urth-urth.net\nor, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to\n? ? ? ?urth-request at lists.urth.net\n\nYou can reach the person managing the list at\n? ? ? ?urth-owner at lists.urth.net\n\nWhen replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific\nthan \"Re: Contents of Urth digest...\"\n\n\nToday's Topics:\n\n? 1. Re: ?Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again) (Adam Thornton)\n? 2. Re: ?Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "(brunians at brunians.org)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "? 3. Re: ?Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "(brunians at brunians.org)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "? 4. Re: ?Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again) (James Wynn)\n? 5. Re: ?Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again) (David Stockhoff)\n? 6. Re: ?Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again) (David Stockhoff)\n? 7. Re: ?Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 30 (David Stockhoff)\n? 8. Re: ?Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again) (David Stockhoff)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "----------------------------------------------------------------------" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Message: 1\nDate: Tue, 19 May 2009 17:00:17 -0500\nFrom: Adam Thornton \nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: <7128DCCE-0E7C-4291-A0FA-D5855BC96A02 at io.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes\n\n\nOn May 19, 2009, at 4:56 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "I calls them like I sees them. I prefer to look straight at things\nand\nname them plainly, rather than search for more comforting,\neuphemistic\nways to express plain reality." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Ah, but here is our fundamental disagreement: I don't think\n\"extortion\" is any closer to \"plain reality\" than \"dues.\"\n\nI am, in fact, arguing that the reverse is true. “But then I believe\nwe probably, at heart, disagree on \"plain reality.\"\n\nAdam\n\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 2\nDate: Tue, 19 May 2009 18:03:48 -0400 (EDT)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: <14123.67.142.130.18.1242770628.squirrel at brunians.org>\nContent-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1\n\nYou're familiar with Thomas Jefferson, right Lane” They taught you\nabout\nhim in law school or college or something, I am sure, and you are\njust\npretending to be ignorant for rhetorical effect.\n\nGo on with you: I am feeling favorably disposed towards you now and\nhave\nno real desire to explain Jeffersonianism to you, almost certainly\nfalling\ninto one or more of your lawyerly traps along the way. I argue for\nfun,\nnot blood and would prefer not to engage with a professional unless\nyou\ntie one lobe of your brain behind your back or something.\n\n\n\n...[W]hat country can preserve its liberties, if it's rulers are not\nwarned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of\nresistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as\nto the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost\nin a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from\ntime to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants.\nIt is its natural manure.\n\n-- Thomas Jefferson\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "So your democratically-elected government gets to serve at the\npleasure of a small but violent minority? I understand frustration\nwith graft and waste, but calling for rebellion against a lawfully-\nseated state for carrying out the will of society?\n\nAt some point, you realize the value in cooperation, community and\nshared society. All civilization is based on this premise, that\ntogether a people can accomplish what one alone cannot.\n\nThe substitution of civil government/society with a profit driven\nmarket removes this universally-agreed as beneficial goal of\ncooperation and replaced it with a unilateral goal of profit. As\nwealth cannot be created ex nihilo, profit must arise from a\nproducer\ntaking more than a product is worth. This is only possible on a\nmarket\nwhere supply and demand are manipulated against the interest of the\nconsumer.\n\nThus, the market is merely the latest iteration of the master-slave\nrelation. It is the battlefield of class conflict. How does calling\ntaxes imposed by a lawful sovereign equal theft, but the creation of\nprofit not equal extortion by a self-selected, undemocratic\noligarchy?\n\nIndividuals and individual liberty are only meaningful insofar as a\ncivil legal system ensures they are protected. Authoritarian abuses\nby\nright and left ignore this. Free markets actively surpress it by\neconomic manipulation.\n\nTell me again why I should kill lawfully-seated ministers of the\ncivil\ngovernment to preserve the rights of the people exploiting me?\n\nSent from my iPhone\n\nOn May 19, 2009, at 4:36 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "I said this in a recent post. I will expand upon it.\n\nTaxation, the extortion of money from the citizens, is permissible\nfor\nthings that are necessary. My list of necessary things includes the\nmilitary and things related to the military, infrastructure and\ncertain\nkinds of research. I insist that the involuntary nature of taxation\nbe\nexplicit and resist the inevitable attempts at expansion of the\nthings-to-be-paid-for-by-taxation.\n\nOf course, as a good Jeffersonian, I believe that from time to time\nit is\nnecessary to shoot the bastards and start over. We're not quite\nthere yet.\n\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "On May 19, 2009, at 4:19 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 10, "text": "But we (the people on the other side of the argument) are none of\nus\narguing for a complete lack of functional civil society and a\nHobbesian\nall-against-all. Were you under the impression that we were?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "I don't see how you can get from the position that all taxation is\ntheft to the position that some governments are legitimate without\ngiving up on the first one.\n\nAdam\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 3\nDate: Tue, 19 May 2009 18:05:56 -0400 (EDT)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: <2352.67.142.130.18.1242770756.squirrel at brunians.org>\nContent-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1\n\nReality is what doesn't go away when you stop believing in it.\n\n-- PKD (I think).\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "On May 19, 2009, at 4:56 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "I calls them like I sees them. I prefer to look straight at things\nand\nname them plainly, rather than search for more comforting,\neuphemistic\nways to express plain reality." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "Ah, but here is our fundamental disagreement: I don't think\n\"extortion\" is any closer to \"plain reality\" than \"dues.\"\n\nI am, in fact, arguing that the reverse is true. ?But then I believe\nwe probably, at heart, disagree on \"plain reality.\"\n\nAdam\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Tue, 19 May 2009 17:06:05 -0500\nFrom: \"James Wynn\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=\"iso-8859-1\";\n? ? ? ?reply-type=response\n\nAdam, in \"The Devil in a Forest\", Wolfe presents the issue moral\nterms.\nIf\nI'm benefiting from a service more than my neighbor, and also paying\nless\nfor that service than my neighbor, why is that less shameful than\njust\ngoing\nto his door and demanding the money?\nOkay. Here are your three options:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "Adam sez:\nOf course, \"fund it to the same degree,\" and \"robbing from the rich\nto\ngive to the poor,\" each themselves admit multiple interpretations.\nOne way of \"funding it to the same degree\" would be to demand a flat\namount from each citizen." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "This is actually is the most fair way. But, that's asking way too\nmuch\nfairness from a society of Fallen human beings. On the other hand, if\nthe\npoor don't like it, I suppose they could move to Mogadishu." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "One way would be to impose the same percentage fee on each citizen,\nregardless of income. “This is usually what Libertarians claim to\nlike.\nHowever, such a plan ignores the (I think fairly important)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "observation\nthat the marginal value of money decreases the more of it ?you have." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Marginal value decreases for whom” Not to the people who work to earn\nit.\nYou're argument divorces the amount of money made from the people who\ncreated it. It assumes that a guy making $25K a year is exactly like\nthe\nguy\nmaking $250K a year except that one happens to make less. It ignores\nthe\nrisks the second guy took in capital, time, and effort in order to\ncreate\nthat wealth. It also ignores the fact that the first guy gets far\nmore\nBENEFIT from non-essential government services that the second guy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Some\nwould say the differences therefore balance out so that both should\npay\nthe\nsame rate." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "The real reason has nothing to do with marginal values of money. It\nhas\nto\ndo with practicality. These services are proposed to get a majority\nof\nthe\nvoting public to like them. So you give out benefits to a larger\nnumber\nand\nhave a smaller number pay the freight. No majority will not vote for\n95%\nof\ngovernment services if they are seen as fee-for-service. “You\nprobably\nwouldn't. David Stackhoff implied that he found the idea increased\ntaxes\nappealing because he didn't think he'd pay the bulk of them (or any\nof\nthem”)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "Hence a third way would be to impose a tax that causes the same\namount\n“of\ninconvenience at all levels of income. ?This is approximately what\nprogressive income taxes attempt to do." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "How does a progressive tax provide \"the same amount ?of inconvenience\nat\nall\nlevels of income\"? Or do you mean \"we'll tax you more if you have\nmore\nand\nwe'll do the same to other guy who has more too\"? What if we taxed\nevery\none\nmaking $35K-$50K at 95% and everyone else at 15%. Is that equally\nlogical”\nBut we don't just tax based on income either, do we? Because this is\ndemocracy in action. The law-makers cut breaks for certain voting\nblocks\n(home-owners, parents, college students, and retirees) while busting\nothers\n(cigarette smokers and people who drive for a living)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "\"Robbing from the rich to give to the poor,\" is simply the same\n“argument\nstood on its head, of course. ?Does taxation go from ?\"legitimate\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "to\n\"robbery\" at a value derived from the absolute dollar ?value of the\ntax,\nfrom a percentage of income across all income ?ranges, or to a\ndegree\nof\ninconvenience across all income ranges”" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "How can I describe a progressive tax? Say five citizens get together\nto\nfund\na new well. Hmmm...they could all pay the same amount to dig it, or\nthey\ncould all pay the same percentage of their wealth, OR....they could\nvote\nthat Moe here--who also has a lake on his property so he doesn't need\nthe\nwell---will pay for half of it because, after all, he can \"afford\nit\".\nHow\nis that different from a two foxes and a hen voting on what to have\nfor\nsupper?\n\nJ.\n\n\n\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Tue, 19 May 2009 18:06:46 -0400\nFrom: David Stockhoff \nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nMessage-ID: <4A132D76.3090700 at verizon.net>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed\n\nYeah, Mao and Washington would have found much in common.\n\n\n--- On Tue, 5/19/09, brunians at brunians.org \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "From: brunians at brunians.org \nMao was a perceptive guy about some\nthings. Power and how to use it, for\ninstance. Decent poet also, I'm told.\n\nNot a very nice man, but pretty smart.\n\nIf three people as different as Mao, Washington and Geller\nagree about\nsomething, I'd say it's time to sit up and take notice.\n\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 10, "text": "If Mao said it, it must be true.\n\n------------------------------" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 090519-0, 05/19/2009\nTested on: 5/19/2009 6:06:48 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 6\nDate: Tue, 19 May 2009 18:08:42 -0400\nFrom: David Stockhoff \nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nMessage-ID: <4A132DEA.20907 at verizon.net>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed\n\nOf course you have.\n\n\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Tue, 19 May 2009 17:44:27 -0400 (EDT)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-05-20T01:45:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 36", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 8:39 PM, Robin Dunn wrote:\nAt the risk of sounding like a nutty conspiracy theorist, take the\ntightening of borders, the expansion of military expenditures, the\nmilitarization of the boy scouts, and what do you have? ?A nice\nrevolution in the making." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I had resolved to ignore these various discussions, because they make\nthe worst of the old Usenet flame wars look like collegial &\nproductive symposiums...\n\nBut I have to ask: 'militarization of the boy scouts'?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern" } ] }, { "message_id": "<68DD0532-232B-4F35-98A6-2D58D28AD577@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-05-20T01:47:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 36", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 19, 2009, at 8:45 PM, Gwern Branwen wrote:\nI had resolved to ignore these various discussions, because they make\nthe worst of the old Usenet flame wars look like collegial &\nproductive symposiums..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "?!?\n\nWhat Usenet were *you* on?\n\nThis current tiff is a model of tact, charm, decorum, and, \nimportantly, proper grammar and spelling.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-05-20T01:55:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 36", "in_reply_to": "<68DD0532-232B-4F35-98A6-2D58D28AD577@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 9:47 PM, Adam Thornton wrote:\nWhat Usenet were *you* on?\n\nThis current tiff is a model of tact, charm, decorum, and, importantly,\nproper grammar and spelling." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah, but on Usenet we could look forward to surreal humor, bizarre\ninterjections, profound non sequiturs, tech holy wars etc. Here we can\nlook forward only to tedious arguments over definitions, and basically\nthe standard panoply of WASPy rhetoric that (hopefully) one grew tired\nof in one's infancy.\n\nMeow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow..." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-05-20T01:58:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 36", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 19, 2009, at 8:55 PM, Gwern Branwen wrote:\nOn Tue, May 19, 2009 at 9:47 PM, Adam Thornton wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What Usenet were *you* on?\n\nThis current tiff is a model of tact, charm, decorum, and, \nimportantly,\nproper grammar and spelling." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ah, but on Usenet we could look forward to surreal humor, bizarre\ninterjections, profound non sequiturs, tech holy wars etc. Here we can\nlook forward only to tedious arguments over definitions, and basically\nthe standard panoply of WASPy rhetoric that (hopefully) one grew tired\nof in one's infancy.\n\nMeow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "ARMM!\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<839382.62270.qm@web37608.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-05-20T02:17:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 36", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But I have to ask: 'militarization of the boy scouts'?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can take that one, since at least it's a factual question.\n\nThere's lately been some hubbub about Explorer Scouts running \"anti-terrorist\" operations:\nhttp://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/14/us/14explorers.html?_r=2\n\n2 things:\n\n1) \"Explorer Scouts\" are not \"Boy Scouts.\" They are co-ed groups that are most commonly pre-professional. They're associated with the Scouts and often have like police or fire or coast guard training rather than traditional camping and knots, etc. The kinds of police or \"military\" training that these groups did have been going on for decades as part of whatever professional group the Explorer's are ostensibly training to become. So what's seen as \"militarization\" of the Boy Scouts is neither accurate nor something new.\n\n2) The \"anti-terrorist\" training that these Explorer groups have been doing is part of whatever the professional sponsors are having them do. It's not a program designed by anyone at Boy Scouts of America. Explorer Posts are each individually organized groups that are sponsored but not overseen in any real sense by the Boy Scouts. So even if this group is stepping over the line, it's not something that you'll soon see every 12 year old with a Scout uniform doing.\n\nI was an Eagle Scout, and I also consider myself a sane and reasonable individual. So I get a bit defensive when the crazy homophobic, gung-ho types who, admittedly, make up a noticeable portion of an otherwise great program get all the publicity.\n\nMost of us in Scouts, though, spent more time playing Dungeons and Dragons out in the woods rather than taking rifle practice against ferriners.\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<2A61E09BA91E47B8B13088FDD6234B4B@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-05-20T02:23:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) militarization of the scouts", "in_reply_to": "<839382.62270.qm@web37608.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "But I have to ask: 'militarization of the boy scouts'?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I can take that one, since at least it's a factual question.\n\nThere's lately been some hubbub about Explorer Scouts running \n\"anti-terrorist\" operations:\nhttp://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/14/us/14explorers.html?_r=2" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This new generation gets **everything***. First cable TV. Now this! " } ] }, { "message_id": "<03AE04CF-A36E-4A7A-88D7-8FAAE14C0117@comcast.net>", "from": { "name": "Steven", "address": "mcquaryq at comcast.net" }, "date": "2009-05-20T22:04:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 36", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 19, 2009, at 8:39 PM, Robin Dunn wrote:\n is it really wrong\nfor the guy with NO advantages to pull you out of your SUV, stomp on\nyour cel phone, relieve you of your wallet, and bruise a few of your\nribs?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes.\n\nSteven" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7880.67.142.130.43.1242857648.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-05-20T22:14:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 36", "in_reply_to": "<03AE04CF-A36E-4A7A-88D7-8FAAE14C0117@comcast.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's OK if you shoot him when he comes at you to do that, too.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 19, 2009, at 8:39 PM, Robin Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " is it really wrong\nfor the guy with NO advantages to pull you out of your SUV, stomp on\nyour cel phone, relieve you of your wallet, and bruise a few of your\nribs?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes.\n\nSteven\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<31419EA0-6B7C-414A-BA0D-DB34A90B49D9@comcast.net>", "from": { "name": "Steven", "address": "mcquaryq at comcast.net" }, "date": "2009-05-21T22:02:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 36", "in_reply_to": "<7880.67.142.130.43.1242857648.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 20, 2009, at 6:14 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nIt's OK if you shoot him when he comes at you to do that, too." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " You get extra points, I think, for being in a national park.\n\nSteve" } ] } ] }