{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5445", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5445, "subject": "(no subject)", "messages": 21, "voices": 6, "first": "2009-05-20T09:10:32+00:00", "last": "2009-05-21T11:30:14+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<63FB9AC7E0AEC7459DBCC99DC44247CA031FA6A4@BOSIDEXDB.Bankofscotland.ie>", "from": { "name": "O'Donnell, Tim BOSI", "address": "tim.o'donnell at bankofscotland.ie" }, "date": "2009-05-20T09:10:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree with you totally here Adam.\n\nHow is \"theft\" defined outside of the idea of \"property\"? \nGiven that what is the fundamental basis for assuming that people have a right to property?\n\nCan you clarify your ideas Brunians?\n\nHave you read Rouesseau?\n\n\n\n________________________________________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7405.67.142.130.46.1242826103.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-05-20T13:28:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "<63FB9AC7E0AEC7459DBCC99DC44247CA031FA6A4@BOSIDEXDB.Bankofscotland.ie>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Property rights are sacred, unalienable and a matter of faith.\n\nYou believe in them or you don't. Attempt to violate mine at your peril.\n\nHow many children did Rousseau abandon? What was his justification for\nthat again? How could anyone take such a moral criminal seriously?\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree with you totally here Adam.\n\nHow is \"theft\" defined outside of the idea of \"property\"?\nGiven that what is the fundamental basis for assuming that people have a\nright to property?\n\nCan you clarify your ideas Brunians?\n\nHave you read Rouesseau?\n\n\n\n________________________________________________________________________\n________________________________________________________________________\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Tue, 19 May 2009 13:26:11 -0500\nFrom: Adam Thornton \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Devil in a Forest\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes\n\n\nOn May 19, 2009, at 1:22 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Socialism is criminal.\n\nSocialism is the idea that theft is OK if it's done by the government.\n\nThe difference between war and socialism is that war is sometimes\nnecessary." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How do you define \"criminal\", or \"theft\", without a legal code against\nwhich to define those actions?\n\nHow do you enforce a legal code in the absence of a government?\n\nHow do you pay for a government?\n\nWhat does this have to do with Gene Wolfe?\n\nAdam\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n************************************************************************************************\nFind out more about us at www.bankofscotland.ie\n\n\nThe information contained in this message is confidential and is intended\nfor the addressee only. If you have received this message in error or\nthere are any problems please notify the originator immediately. The\nunauthorised use, disclosure, copying or alteration of this message is\nstrictly forbidden. This mail and any attachments have been scanned for\nviruses prior to leaving Bank of Scotland Ireland's network.\nBank of Scotland Ireland will not be liable for direct, special, indirect\nor consequential damages arising from alteration of the contents of this\nmessage by a third party or as a result of any virus being passed on. Bank\nof Scotland (Ireland) reserves the right to monitor and record e-mail\nmessages sent to and from this address for the purposes of investigating\nor detecting any unauthorised use of its system and ensuring its effective\noperation.\n\nBank of Scotland (Ireland) Limited is part of HBOS plc and is regulated by\nthe Financial Regulator. Registered in Ireland Number: 8545. Registered\noffice: Bank of Scotland House, 124-127 St. Stephens Green, Dublin 2\n\n****************************************************************************************************\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4A1412BC.2040606@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-05-20T14:25:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "<7405.67.142.130.46.1242826103.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nProperty rights are sacred, unalienable and a matter of faith.\n\nYou believe in them or you don't. Attempt to violate mine at your peril." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am so pleased to see you turn out in favor of native title!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How many children did Rousseau abandon? What was his justification for\nthat again? How could anyone take such a moral criminal seriously?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Absolutely. Buddha, Ben Franklin, Grover Cleveland, not a one of them \nworth listening to." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<12331.67.142.130.32.1242836941.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-05-20T16:29:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "<4A1412BC.2040606@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Property rights are sacred, unalienable and a matter of faith." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You believe in them or you don't. Attempt to violate mine at your peril." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I am so pleased to see you turn out in favor of native title!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is the standard Jeffersonian position:\n\n___\nWe hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal,\n ^^^^ ^^^^^^^\nthat they are endowed, by their CREATOR, with certain unalienable Rights,\nthat among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.\n---\n\nAs I have mentioned, this list is not exclusive, and the original list\nthat Brother Thomas came up with had 'property' instead of 'the pursuit of\nhappiness'. People have argued from that day to this one whether the\nsubstitution was felicitous.\n\nI have no idea what you mean by 'native title'. Perhaps you will choose to\nenlighten me: in any case I wish you joy of your superior knowledge.\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<273409710905200935m71b4460g5517b512832c59f7@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-05-20T16:35:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "<12331.67.142.130.32.1242836941.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Would it relate to Native American Land Rights?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 9:29 AM, wrote:\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Property rights are sacred, unalienable and a matter of faith." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "You believe in them or you don't. Attempt to violate mine at your peril." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I am so pleased to see you turn out in favor of native title!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is the standard Jeffersonian position:\n\n___\nWe hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal,\n ^^^^ ^^^^^^^\nthat they are endowed, by their CREATOR, with certain unalienable Rights,\nthat among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.\n---\n\nAs I have mentioned, this list is not exclusive, and the original list\nthat Brother Thomas came up with had 'property' instead of 'the pursuit of\nhappiness'. People have argued from that day to this one whether the\nsubstitution was felicitous.\n\nI have no idea what you mean by 'native title'. Perhaps you will choose to\nenlighten me: in any case I wish you joy of your superior knowledge.\n\n\n\n\n.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2096.67.142.130.32.1242838820.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-05-20T17:00:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "<273409710905200935m71b4460g5517b512832c59f7@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am absolutely in favor of enforcement of American Indian treaty rights\nand have been for my whole life. I don't really see any way that the\nconquest of North America could have been avoided, but it's not something\nthat I think was good or fair.\n\nI'm also, as has been noted, a Confederate sympathizer.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Would it relate to Native American Land Rights?\n\nOn Wed, May 20, 2009 at 9:29 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Property rights are sacred, unalienable and a matter of faith." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "You believe in them or you don't. Attempt to violate mine at your\nperil." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I am so pleased to see you turn out in favor of native title!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It is the standard Jeffersonian position:\n\n___\nWe hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal,\n ^^^^ ^^^^^^^\nthat they are endowed, by their CREATOR, with certain unalienable\nRights,\nthat among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.\n---\n\nAs I have mentioned, this list is not exclusive, and the original list\nthat Brother Thomas came up with had 'property' instead of 'the pursuit\nof\nhappiness'. People have argued from that day to this one whether the\nsubstitution was felicitous.\n\nI have no idea what you mean by 'native title'. Perhaps you will choose\nto\nenlighten me: in any case I wish you joy of your superior knowledge.\n\n\n\n\n.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6393.67.142.130.32.1242840082.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-05-20T17:21:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "<4A1412BC.2040606@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "How many children did Rousseau abandon? What was his justification for\nthat again? How could anyone take such a moral criminal seriously?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Rousseau sent his infant children to an orphanage and did not check up on\nthem. The death rate in 18th century French orphanages approached 100%." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Absolutely. Buddha," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Left his children in the care of his royally wealthy wife and parents." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Ben Franklin," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Acknowledged and supported one legitimate child, and raised two others\nwith his partner of many years (they never married)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Grover Cleveland," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is an interesting one. Grover, famously, acknowledged having an\nillegitimate child during the presidential race. What actually happened\nwas this: he and his law partner, Oscar Folsom, were hanging out with the\nsame lady, who was a widow. She got pregnant. Oscar was married: Grover\nwasn't, so Grover 'did the right thing'. She named the child Oscar Folsom\nCleveland. Many people have speculated that the child was actually\nOscar's." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " not a one of them\nworth listening to." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sorry, I don't think any of these are examples bolster your argument.\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-05-20T18:13:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "<7405.67.142.130.46.1242826103.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 20, 2009, at 8:28 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nProperty rights are sacred, unalienable and a matter of faith.\n\nYou believe in them or you don't. Attempt to violate mine at your \nperil." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is \"intellectual property\" identical to real property? Is downloading \nan MP3 of Stu's music the same as walking into his house and taking \nhis TV?\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4A144AFC.9050502@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-05-20T18:25:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "<12331.67.142.130.32.1242836941.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Property rights are sacred, unalienable and a matter of faith." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "You believe in them or you don't. Attempt to violate mine at your peril." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I am so pleased to see you turn out in favor of native title!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is the standard Jeffersonian position:\n\n___\nWe hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal,\n ^^^^ ^^^^^^^\nthat they are endowed, by their CREATOR, with certain unalienable Rights,\nthat among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.\n---" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And yet, he continued to own slaves, to keep men made by that same \nCreator from their liberty and their pursuit of happiness for *fifty \nyears* after he wrote those words. Who could take such a moral criminal \nseriously?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As I have mentioned, this list is not exclusive, and the original list\nthat Brother Thomas came up with had 'property' instead of 'the pursuit of\nhappiness'. People have argued from that day to this one whether the\nsubstitution was felicitous.\n\nI have no idea what you mean by 'native title'. Perhaps you will choose to\nenlighten me: in any case I wish you joy of your superior knowledge." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "briefly, that native peoples can retain an interest in the land that \nsurvives redistribution by colonizing polities." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4053.67.142.130.24.1242845982.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-05-20T18:59:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think it is, personally.\n\nYour mileage may vary.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 20, 2009, at 8:28 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Property rights are sacred, unalienable and a matter of faith.\n\nYou believe in them or you don't. Attempt to violate mine at your\nperil." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is \"intellectual property\" identical to real property? Is downloading\nan MP3 of Stu's music the same as walking into his house and taking\nhis TV?\n\nAdam_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2985.67.142.130.24.1242846262.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-05-20T19:04:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "<4A144AFC.9050502@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "[Jefferson] continued to own slaves, to keep men made by that same\nCreator from their liberty and their pursuit of happiness for *fifty\nyears* after he wrote those words. Who could take such a moral criminal\nseriously?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Books have been written about this. All I will say at this time is that I\nam satisfied that Jefferson's conduct was mediated by necessity." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I have no idea what you mean by 'native title'. Perhaps you will choose\nto enlighten me: in any case I wish you joy of your superior knowledge." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "briefly, that native peoples can retain an interest in the land that\nsurvives redistribution by colonizing polities." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I believe that they have treaty rights, which should be enforced.\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<791971.18686.qm@web81404.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Stuart Hamm", "address": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2009-05-20T19:08:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "<4053.67.142.130.24.1242845982.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I must old...I can't understand how people don't see file sharing as theft.Even if record companies paid what they agreed to...haha...it's literally pennies on the dollar..and they are soooooooooooooo corrupt. I'd rather pay 99cents on itunes if there's asong I need to learn dammit...Good thing i don;t sell alot of albums!!\nhaving said that...artist permitted free downloads are a great marketing tool and I didn't bat an eye when our drum tech downloaded BSG for me every week on the road last year...but that's rich TV people and I'm just a musician trying to provide food , clothes and shelter for my family right???\n\nThanks for getting me worked up before my visit from the IRS manana...\n\n\n\n??????????-\\\\~S~//- ? Mobile — (415) 786-3624\n???? Skype? stuart.hamm\nmyspace.com/stuhamm\n? ??? stuarthamm.net\n\n\n--- On Wed, 5/20/09, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org \nSubject: Re: (urth) (no subject)\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, May 20, 2009, 11:59 AM\n\nI don't think it is, personally.\n\nYour mileage may vary.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 20, 2009, at 8:28 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Property rights are sacred, unalienable and a matter of faith.\n\nYou believe in them or you don't. Attempt to violate mine at your\nperil." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is \"intellectual property\" identical to real property? Is\ndownloading\nan MP3 of Stu's music the same as walking into his house and taking\nhis TV?\n\nAdam_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4A14582D.9050904@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-05-20T19:21:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "<2985.67.142.130.24.1242846262.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\n[Jefferson] continued to own slaves, to keep men made by that same\nCreator from their liberty and their pursuit of happiness for *fifty\nyears* after he wrote those words. Who could take such a moral criminal\nseriously?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Books have been written about this. All I will say at this time is that I\nam satisfied that Jefferson's conduct was mediated by necessity." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why can you take Jefferson's word seriously enough to determine that his \nnecessity was valid, but dismiss Rosseau out of hand? If Rosseau came \nout and admitted later that he had no good reason to to get rid of ths \nbabies, and it was a bad bad thing, acknowledging the moral crime, he's \nstill unworthy of creedence? Isn't that a double standard piled atop a \nperverse moral incentive?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I have no idea what you mean by 'native title'. Perhaps you will choose\nto enlighten me: in any case I wish you joy of your superior knowledge." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "briefly, that native peoples can retain an interest in the land that\nsurvives redistribution by colonizing polities." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I believe that they have treaty rights, which should be enforced." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What about the ones that were driven off their land without the pretense \nof a treaty?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4A145996.4090403@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-05-20T19:27:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "<791971.18686.qm@web81404.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Stuart Hamm wrote:\nI must old...I can't understand how people don't see file sharing as \ntheft." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I won't say it's not bad, but it's not the _same_ as theft, and when \npeople say it is they lose credibility.\n\n\nDo you consider letting people watch your TV to be theft?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8833.67.142.130.24.1242847829.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-05-20T19:30:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "<4A14582D.9050904@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "[Jefferson] continued to own slaves, to keep men made by that same\nCreator from their liberty and their pursuit of happiness for *fifty\nyears* after he wrote those words. Who could take such a moral criminal\nseriously?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Books have been written about this. All I will say at this time is that\n ^^^ ^ ^^^^ ^^^ ^^ ^^^^ ^^^^" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"this time\" taken to include the present and near future." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I am satisfied that Jefferson's conduct was mediated by necessity." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why can you take Jefferson's word seriously enough to determine that his\nnecessity was valid, but dismiss Rosseau out of hand?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have examined the case to my satisfaction. See above." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I believe that they have treaty rights, which should be enforced." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What about the ones that were driven off their land without the pretense\nof a treaty?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Homo Sapiens Out Of Northern Europe!\n\nNeanderthal Power!\n\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4A145C41.4040802@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-05-20T19:38:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "<8833.67.142.130.24.1242847829.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "[Jefferson] continued to own slaves, to keep men made by that same\nCreator from their liberty and their pursuit of happiness for *fifty\nyears* after he wrote those words. Who could take such a moral criminal\nseriously?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Books have been written about this. All I will say at this time is that\n ^^^ ^ ^^^^ ^^^ ^^ ^^^^ ^^^^" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"this time\" taken to include the present and near future." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I am satisfied that Jefferson's conduct was mediated by necessity." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why can you take Jefferson's word seriously enough to determine that his\nnecessity was valid, but dismiss Rosseau out of hand?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have examined the case to my satisfaction. See above." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not able to explain the disrepancy works for me." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4A145D0D.2020907@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-05-20T19:42:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "<8833.67.142.130.24.1242847829.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nI believe that they have treaty rights, which should be enforced." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What about the ones that were driven off their land without the pretense\nof a treaty?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Homo Sapiens Out Of Northern Europe!\n\nNeanderthal Power!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Property rights are sacred, unalienable and a matter of faith.\n\nYou believe in them or you don't.\"" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1694.67.142.130.43.1242854925.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-05-20T21:28:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "<4A145D0D.2020907@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My God, I am crushed. You cruel man. However will I repair the tattered\nshreds of my self-esteem?\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I believe that they have treaty rights, which should be enforced." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "What about the ones that were driven off their land without the\npretense\nof a treaty?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Homo Sapiens Out Of Northern Europe!\n\nNeanderthal Power!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Property rights are sacred, unalienable and a matter of faith.\n\nYou believe in them or you don't.\"\n\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<608FD6AD-6673-4CD7-909E-51E43E1E3216@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-05-20T21:31:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "<1694.67.142.130.43.1242854925.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 20, 2009, at 4:28 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nMy God, I am crushed. You cruel man. However will I repair the \ntattered\nshreds of my self-esteem?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oooh, ooh, I've just--as a Southerner myself--*got* to take a crack at \nthis one:\n\n\"Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn.\"\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<10906.67.142.130.43.1242855686.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-05-20T21:41:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "<608FD6AD-6673-4CD7-909E-51E43E1E3216@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 20, 2009, at 4:28 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "My God, I am crushed. You cruel man. However will I repair the\ntattered\nshreds of my self-esteem?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Oooh, ooh, I've just--as a Southerner myself--*got* to take a crack at\nthis one:\n\n\"Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And again I must rely upon the kindness of strangers.\n- (collapses into the arms of the ambulance attendants).\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4A153B46.7000608@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-05-21T11:30:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "<6393.67.142.130.32.1242840082.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nJeff Wilson writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "How many children did Rousseau abandon? What was his justification for\nthat again? How could anyone take such a moral criminal seriously?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Rousseau sent his infant children to an orphanage and did not check up on\nthem. The death rate in 18th century French orphanages approached 100%." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sources differ. Supposedly he did check up years later, but records were \nnot well kept if at all. Infant mortality was upwards of 50% all-round \nin part due to elective wet nursing compounding the septic practices of \nthe age - and against which he later spoke against, encouraging parents \nwho did take such a moral criminal seriously to keep infants home and \nsaving thousands of tiny lives." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Absolutely. Buddha," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Left his children in the care of his royally wealthy wife and parents." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The child he called one more chain to bind him down, and left in the \ngrip of an absolute, slave-keeping tyrant, a situation he found \nintolerable, but he did have time to liberate his childhood chum." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] } ] }