Subject: (urth) (no subject)

From: O'Donnell, Tim BOSI <tim.o'donnell at bankofscotland.ie>
Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 09:10:32 +0000

I agree with you totally here Adam.

How is "theft" defined outside of the idea of "property"?  
Given that what is the fundamental basis for assuming that people have a right to property?

Can you clarify your ideas Brunians?

Have you read Rouesseau?

________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 4
Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 13:26:11 -0500
From: Adam Thornton <adam at io.com>
Subject: Re: (urth) The Devil in a Forest
To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
Message-ID: <ED8C3F46-B419-47B1-ABBE-B96AFC216322 at io.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes

On May 19, 2009, at 1:22 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:

> Socialism is criminal.
>
> Socialism is the idea that theft is OK if it's done by the government.
>
> The difference between war and socialism is that war is sometimes  
> necessary.

How do you define "criminal", or "theft", without a legal code against  
which to define those actions?

How do you enforce a legal code in the absence of a government?

How do you pay for a government?

What does this have to do with Gene Wolfe?

Adam

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From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 13:28:23 +0000

Property rights are sacred, unalienable and a matter of faith.

You believe in them or you don't. Attempt to violate mine at your peril.

How many children did Rousseau abandon? What was his justification for
that again? How could anyone take such a moral criminal seriously?

.

> The information contained in this message is confidential and is intended
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> there are any problems please notify the originator immediately. The
> unauthorised use, disclosure, copying or alteration of this message is
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> Bank of Scotland Ireland will not be liable for direct, special, indirect
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> of Scotland (Ireland) reserves the right to monitor and record e-mail
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>
> Bank of Scotland (Ireland) Limited is part of HBOS plc and is regulated by
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From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 14:25:00 +0000

> You believe in them or you don't. Attempt to violate mine at your peril.

I am so pleased to see you turn out in favor of native title!

> that again? How could anyone take such a moral criminal seriously?

Absolutely. Buddha, Ben Franklin, Grover Cleveland, not a one of them 
worth listening to.

-- 
Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com
< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 16:29:01 +0000

> I am so pleased to see you turn out in favor of native title!

It is the standard Jeffersonian position:

___
We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal,
                           ^^^^ ^^^^^^^
that they are endowed, by their CREATOR, with certain unalienable Rights,
that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.
---

As I have mentioned, this list is not exclusive, and the original list
that Brother Thomas came up with had 'property' instead of 'the pursuit of
happiness'. People have argued from that day to this one whether the
substitution was felicitous.

I have no idea what you mean by 'native title'. Perhaps you will choose to
enlighten me: in any case I wish you joy of your superior knowledge.

.

---

From: Jordon Flato <jordonflato at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 16:35:42 +0000

Would it relate to Native American Land Rights?

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From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 17:00:20 +0000

I am absolutely in favor of enforcement of American Indian treaty rights
and have been for my whole life. I don't really see any way that the
conquest of North America could have been avoided, but it's not something
that I think was good or fair.

I'm also, as has been noted, a Confederate sympathizer.

.

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 17:21:22 +0000

>> that again? How could anyone take such a moral criminal seriously?

Rousseau sent his infant children to an orphanage and did not check up on
them. The death rate in 18th century French orphanages approached 100%.

> Absolutely. Buddha,

Left his children in the care of his royally wealthy wife and parents.

>                     Ben Franklin,

Acknowledged and supported one legitimate child, and raised two others
with his partner of many years (they never married).

>                                   Grover Cleveland,

This is an interesting one. Grover, famously, acknowledged having an
illegitimate child during the presidential race. What actually happened
was this: he and his law partner, Oscar Folsom, were hanging out with the
same lady, who was a widow. She got pregnant. Oscar was married: Grover
wasn't, so Grover 'did the right thing'. She named the child Oscar Folsom
Cleveland. Many people have speculated that the child was actually
Oscar's.

>                                                      not a one of them

Sorry, I don't think any of these are examples bolster your argument.

.

---

From: Adam Thornton <adam at io.com>
Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 18:13:36 +0000

> You believe in them or you don't. Attempt to violate mine at your  

Is "intellectual property" identical to real property?  Is downloading  
an MP3 of Stu's music the same as walking into his house and taking  
his TV?

Adam
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From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 18:25:00 +0000

> We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal,

And yet, he continued to own slaves, to keep men made by that same 
Creator from their liberty and their pursuit of happiness for *fifty 
years* after he wrote those words. Who could take such a moral criminal 
seriously?

> enlighten me: in any case I wish you joy of your superior knowledge.

briefly, that native peoples can retain an interest in the land that 
survives redistribution by colonizing polities.

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 18:59:42 +0000

I don't think it is, personally.

Your mileage may vary.

.

> Adam_______________________________________________
> Urth Mailing List

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 19:04:22 +0000

>
> [Jefferson] continued to own slaves, to keep men made by that same

Books have been written about this. All I will say at this time is that I
am satisfied that Jefferson's conduct was mediated by necessity.

>> I have no idea what you mean by 'native title'. Perhaps you will choose
>> to enlighten me: in any case I wish you joy of your superior knowledge.

> survives redistribution by colonizing polities.

I believe that they have treaty rights, which should be enforced.

.

---

From: Stuart Hamm <hammstu at sbcglobal.net>
Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 19:08:09 +0000

I must old...I can't understand how people don't see file sharing as theft.Even if record companies paid what they agreed to...haha...it's literally pennies on the dollar..and they are soooooooooooooo corrupt. I'd rather pay 99cents on itunes if there's asong I need to learn dammit...Good thing i don;t sell alot of albums!!
having said that...artist permitted free downloads are a great marketing tool and I didn't bat an eye when our drum tech downloaded BSG for me every week on the road last year...but that's rich TV people and I'm just a musician trying to provide food , clothes and shelter for my family right???

Thanks for getting me worked up before my visit from the IRS manana...

??????????-\\~S~//-  ?  Mobile — (415) 786-3624
???? Skype? stuart.hamm
myspace.com/stuhamm
? ??? stuarthamm.net

--- On Wed, 5/20/09, brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org> wrote:
From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Subject: Re: (urth) (no subject)
To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net>
Date: Wednesday, May 20, 2009, 11:59 AM

Your mileage may vary.

.

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From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 19:21:17 +0000

> am satisfied that Jefferson's conduct was mediated by necessity.

Why can you take Jefferson's word seriously enough to determine that his 
necessity was valid, but dismiss Rosseau out of hand? If Rosseau came 
out and admitted later that he had no good reason to to get rid of ths 
babies, and it was a bad bad thing, acknowledging the moral crime, he's 
still unworthy of creedence? Isn't that a double standard piled atop a 
perverse moral incentive?

> I believe that they have treaty rights, which should be enforced.

What about the ones that were driven off their land without the pretense 
of a treaty?

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 19:27:18 +0000

Stuart Hamm wrote:
> I must old...I can't understand how people don't see file sharing as 
> theft.

I won't say it's not bad, but it's not the _same_ as theft, and when 
people say it is they lose credibility.

Do you consider letting people watch your TV to be theft?

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 19:30:29 +0000

>> Books have been written about this. All I will say at this time is that
                                       ^^^ ^ ^^^^ ^^^ ^^ ^^^^ ^^^^

"this time" taken to include the present and near future.

>> I am satisfied that Jefferson's conduct was mediated by necessity.

> necessity was valid, but dismiss Rosseau out of hand?

I have examined the case to my satisfaction. See above.

> What about the ones that were driven off their land without the pretense

Homo Sapiens Out Of Northern Europe!

Neanderthal Power!

.

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 19:38:41 +0000

>>> Books have been written about this. All I will say at this time is that

Not able to explain the disrepancy works for me.

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 19:42:05 +0000

> Homo Sapiens Out Of Northern Europe!

"Property rights are sacred, unalienable and a matter of faith.

You believe in them or you don't."

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 21:28:45 +0000

My God, I am crushed. You cruel man. However will I repair the tattered
shreds of my self-esteem?

.

---

From: Adam Thornton <adam at io.com>
Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 21:31:15 +0000

> shreds of my self-esteem?

Oooh, ooh, I've just--as a Southerner myself--*got* to take a crack at  
this one:

"Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn."

Adam
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From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 21:41:26 +0000

> "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn."

And again I must rely upon the kindness of strangers.
-  (collapses into the arms of the ambulance attendants).

.

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 11:30:14 +0000

> them. The death rate in 18th century French orphanages approached 100%.

Sources differ. Supposedly he did check up years later, but records were 
not well kept if at all. Infant mortality was upwards of 50% all-round 
in part due to elective wet nursing compounding the septic practices of 
the age - and against which he later spoke against, encouraging parents 
who did take such a moral criminal seriously to keep infants home and 
saving thousands of tiny lives.

> Left his children in the care of his royally wealthy wife and parents.

The child he called one more chain to bind him down, and left in the 
grip of an absolute, slave-keeping tyrant, a situation he found 
intolerable, but he did have time to liberate his childhood chum.