{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5448", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5448, "subject": "There Are Doors", "messages": 12, "voices": 5, "first": "2009-05-20T12:25:14+00:00", "last": "2009-05-22T14:24:11+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<4A13F6AA.504@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-05-20T12:25:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) There Are Doors", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I find that one of the more haunting of his novels. That and Peace, and Free, Live, Free." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Wed, 20 May 2009 00:56:00 -0500\nFrom: Lane Haygood \nSubject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID:\n\t<272706220905192256v75226e2bi7fc3162b46ba5c6 at mail.gmail.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1\n\nI go out for one nice dinner with my wife and look what happens!\n\nIn brief, let me say that anyone who is interested in actually\nlistening to a commie pinko about these things can e-mail me, respond\nat my blog (http://citizen-lane.blogspot.com) or just read up on your\nown at http://www.marxists.org. You might be surprised by how\ninauthentic a picture of socialism one gets from a US education,\nparticularly in the realm of economics, where neoclassical liberalism\nrules the roost. We're not out of the shadow of McCarthyism yet.\n\nNow, back to Wolfe. I bought \"There Are Doors\" at a used bookstore\nlast week. I am thoroughly impressed.\n\n\n------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1CB5892E094A432692F0F60ABD6EE19E@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-05-21T15:20:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) There Are Doors", "in_reply_to": "<4A13F6AA.504@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I bought \"There Are Doors\" at a used bookstore\nlast week. I am thoroughly impressed." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "TAD is the only \"parallel universe\" story to offer a systemic justification \nthe close similarities in parallel universes that have major variations in \ntheir histories: Nearby universes are influencing each other at a \nnon-rational level.\n\nJ.\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<273409710905210826p26fd520cp1d98db642e4cecac@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-05-21T15:26:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) There Are Doors", "in_reply_to": "<1CB5892E094A432692F0F60ABD6EE19E@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This story left me Non-Plussed.\n\n\nWhich is a sure indication I need to read it four more times." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 8:20 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nI bought \"There Are Doors\" at a used bookstore\nlast week. I am thoroughly impressed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "TAD is the only \"parallel universe\" story to offer a systemic justification\nthe close similarities in parallel universes that have major variations in\ntheir histories: Nearby universes are influencing each other at a\nnon-rational level.\n\nJ.\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4A157A8F.7070308@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-05-21T16:00:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) There Are Doors", "in_reply_to": "<1CB5892E094A432692F0F60ABD6EE19E@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nI bought \"There Are Doors\" at a used bookstore\nlast week. I am thoroughly impressed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "TAD is the only \"parallel universe\" story to offer a systemic \njustification the close similarities in parallel universes that have \nmajor variations in their histories: Nearby universes are influencing \neach other at a non-rational level." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What's non-rational about people spreading artifacts, memes, and genes \nback and forth?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-05-21T16:09:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) There Are Doors", "in_reply_to": "<4A157A8F.7070308@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I bought \"There Are Doors\" at a used bookstore\nlast week. I am thoroughly impressed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "TAD is the only \"parallel universe\" story to offer a systemic \njustification the close similarities in parallel universes that have \nmajor variations in their histories: Nearby universes are influencing \neach other at a non-rational level." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What's non-rational about people spreading artifacts, memes, and genes \nback and forth?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's not the explanation given. Green compares the universes to two \nadjacent guitar strings tuned to the same note. When you pluck one, the \nother resonates. By the same token, men in our world wear black at their \nweddings. There's no \"reason\" for it. They wear black here, because they \nwear black there. They wear black there for a rational reason: The man is \nabout to die.\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4A1588AA.2070805@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-05-21T17:00:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) There Are Doors", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nI bought \"There Are Doors\" at a used bookstore\nlast week. I am thoroughly impressed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "TAD is the only \"parallel universe\" story to offer a systemic \njustification the close similarities in parallel universes that have \nmajor variations in their histories: Nearby universes are influencing \neach other at a non-rational level." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What's non-rational about people spreading artifacts, memes, and genes \nback and forth?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's not the explanation given. Green compares the universes to two \nadjacent guitar strings tuned to the same note. When you pluck one, the \nother resonates. By the same token, men in our world wear black at their \nweddings. There's no \"reason\" for it. They wear black here, because \nthey wear black there. They wear black there for a rational reason: The \nman is about to die." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But there is *also* a vector of frequent physical travel that the author \ntales pains to display, so that resonance explanation need not be valid. \nIt may just be another of Green's notions.\n\nAs for it being the only story with such a justification, I can think of \nat least three others: Lawrence Watt-Evans' _Out of This World_ and \nChristopher Stasheff's Greymarye series, where the present days in \nworlds of different histories are similar because the mental powers that \nbridge between the worlds only works between worlds where someone is \nthinking with a similar vocabulary along similar lines at either end. \nJohn M. Ford's _Fugue State_ and his metafictional work in GURPS TIME \nTRAVEL establishes that of all possible worlds, only the most similar \nare reachable with finite resources, and \"similar\" comes in various degrees." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-05-21T17:45:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) There Are Doors", "in_reply_to": "<4A1588AA.2070805@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "TAD is the only \"parallel universe\" story to offer a systemic \njustification the close similarities in parallel universes that have \nmajor variations in their histories: Nearby universes are influencing \neach other at a non-rational level." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "What's non-rational about people spreading artifacts, memes, and genes \nback and forth?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "That's not the explanation given. Green compares the universes to two \nadjacent guitar strings tuned to the same note. When you pluck one, the \nother resonates." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "By the same token, men in our world wear black at their weddings. There's \nno \"reason\" for it. They wear black here, because they wear black there. \nThey wear black there for a rational reason: The man is about to die." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But there is *also* a vector of frequent physical travel that the author \ntales pains to display, so that resonance explanation need not be valid. \nIt may just be another of Green's notions.\nAs for it being the only story with such a justification, I can think of \nat least three others: Lawrence Watt-Evans' _Out of This World_ and \nChristopher Stasheff's Greymarye series...John M. Ford's _Fugue State_" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay. Then it is the only one I had read and one of the few. It also \npredates two of the three you named. Ford's paradigm (he was also published \nby Tor, I see) seems like such an obvious extrapolation on TAD (I thought \nthe same thing when reading it) that I wonder if he was inspired by it.\n\nPhysical travel is not rare, but there is little sign that it is common or \nlong term. It's not the same as two adjacent neighborhoods. I think Green's \nexplanation is the most likely. I'm sure his psychiatrist would not find the \nother explanation particularly enticing.\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4A15C933.9010404@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-05-21T21:35:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) There Are Doors", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nTAD is the only \"parallel universe\" story to offer a systemic \njustification the close similarities in parallel universes that \nhave major variations in their histories: Nearby universes are \ninfluencing each other at a non-rational level." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "What's non-rational about people spreading artifacts, memes, and \ngenes back and forth?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "That's not the explanation given. Green compares the universes to \ntwo adjacent guitar strings tuned to the same note. When you pluck \none, the other resonates." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "By the same token, men in our world wear black at their weddings. \nThere's no \"reason\" for it. They wear black here, because they wear \nblack there. They wear black there for a rational reason: The man is \nabout to die." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But there is *also* a vector of frequent physical travel that the \nauthor tales pains to display, so that resonance explanation need not \nbe valid. It may just be another of Green's notions.\nAs for it being the only story with such a justification, I can think \nof at least three others: Lawrence Watt-Evans' _Out of This World_ and \nChristopher Stasheff's Greymarye series...John M. Ford's _Fugue State_" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Okay. Then it is the only one I had read and one of the few. It also \npredates two of the three you named. Ford's paradigm (he was also \npublished by Tor, I see) seems like such an obvious extrapolation on TAD \n(I thought the same thing when reading it) that I wonder if he was \ninspired by it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In fact, I first read _Fugue State_ and _The Death of Doctor Island_ the \nsame day because they were published as an Ace Double. :)\n\nI doubt JMF took more from TAD than from Moorcock's Eternal Champion or \na dozen other sources of heroic striving across the boundaries of \ncontinuity, intentional or otherwise." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Physical travel is not rare, but there is little sign that it is common \nor long term. It's not the same as two adjacent neighborhoods. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it may be exactly that! The Chinese man's shop in the Goddess' \nworld has shelves of chattels from Green's world, and there's the \nintricate arrangement of utility wires strung through both \nneighborhoods, making dozens of possible doorways for people to weave \nthrough. Also, the asylum seems to house people over the long term, and \nenough of them are from Green's world that the handy man is so very \ntired of explaining why they can't have a color TV. And wozzname, the \nNixonian guy who does the subversive plays, he seems to have been \ntransplanted for good." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think \nGreen's explanation is the most likely. I'm sure his psychiatrist would \nnot find the other explanation particularly enticing." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think the resonance theory as Green conceives it is incomplete. There \nshould be evidence of many worlds' influence on his, as well as ours on \ntheirs, as there should have been at the very least several pagan \npowers, even if they have been subsumed by Laura or the Elohim by now." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20090522001251.UJXK29053.eastrmmtao107.cox.net@eastrmimpo01.cox.net>", "from": { "name": "James B. Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2009-05-22T00:12:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) There Are Doors", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, but remember that Green is not too bright. He's one of Wolfe's \nsuccessful, I think, usages of a rather low IQ character who is still \ngood and good-hearted. Remember how SilkHorn has some very odd \nmedical views, which we as readers know to be wrong.\n\nI'm not really disputing you. I'm just tossing in a caveat. What \nGreen thinks might not actually be so.\n\nWhat is clear is that Mama (the church) and her Boys (priests) want \nto save (redeem) this parallel world. It's an Italian Restaurant (the \nsacramental church) that is the main Door.\n\nSome may not know it, but this is Wolfe's favorite novel.\n\n\"Hi! I'm your doll! And I can talk!\" -- you gotta love it!\n\nNutria the Nutricious" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "At 11:09 AM 5/21/2009, you wrote:\nI bought \"There Are Doors\" at a used bookstore\nlast week. I am thoroughly impressed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "TAD is the only \"parallel universe\" story to offer a systemic \njustification the close similarities in parallel universes that \nhave major variations in their histories: Nearby universes are \ninfluencing each other at a non-rational level." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What's non-rational about people spreading artifacts, memes, and \ngenes back and forth?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's not the explanation given. Green compares the universes to \ntwo adjacent guitar strings tuned to the same note. When you pluck \none, the other resonates. By the same token, men in our world wear \nblack at their weddings. There's no \"reason\" for it. They wear \nblack here, because they wear black there. They wear black there for \na rational reason: The man is about to die.\n\nJ.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20090522001736.SFWD12338.eastrmmtao103.cox.net@eastrmimpo02.cox.net>", "from": { "name": "James B. Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2009-05-22T00:17:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) There Are Doors", "in_reply_to": "<20090522001251.UJXK29053.eastrmmtao107.cox.net@eastrmimpo01.cox.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Another question is how much Petrarch there is here. Laura, you know.\n\n From Wikiland:\n\n\n\n[]\n\n\n[]\n\nLaura de Noves\n\nOn \nApril \n6, 1327, \nGood \nFriday, after giving up his vocation as a priest, \nthe sight of a woman called \"Laura\" in the church \nof Sainte-Claire \nd'Avignon \nawoke in him a lasting passion, celebrated in the \nRime sparse (\"Scattered rhymes\"). Later, \nRenaissance poets who copied Petrarch's style \nnamed this collection of 366 poems \nIl \nCanzoniere (\"Song Book\"). Laura may have been \nLaura \nde Noves, the wife of Count \nHugues \nde Sade (ancestor of the \nMarquis \nde Sade). There is little definite information in \nPetrarch's work concerning Laura, except that she \nis lovely to look at, fair-haired, with a modest, \ndignified bearing. Laura and Petrarch had little \nor no personal contact. According to his \n\"Secretum\", she refused him for the very proper \nreason that she was already married to another \nman. He channeled his feelings into love poems \nthat were exclamatory rather than persuasive, and \nwrote prose that showed his contempt for men who \npursue women. Upon her death in 1348, the poet \nfinds that his \ngrief \nis as difficult to live with as was his former \ndespair. Later in his \"Letter to Posterity\", \nPetrarch wrote: \"In my younger days I struggled \nconstantly with an overwhelming but pure love \naffair - my only one, and I would have struggled \nwith it longer had not premature death, bitter \nbut salutary for me, extinguished the cooling \nflames. I certainly wish I could say that I have \nalways been entirely free from desires of the \nflesh, but I would be lying if I did\".\n\nWhile it is possible she was an idealized or \npseudonymous character - particularly since the \nname \"Laura\" has a \nlinguistic \nconnection to the poetic \"laurels\" Petrarch \ncoveted - Petrarch himself always denied it. His \nfrequent use of l'aura, as in \"Erano i capei \nd'oro a l'aura sparsi\" is also remarkable: for \nexample, the line may both mean \"her hair was all \nover Laura's body\", and \"the wind (\"l'aura\") blew \nthrough her hair\". There is psychological realism \nin the description of Laura and Petrarch's love \nis nothing conventional - unlike some clich? \nwomen of \ntroubadours \nand \ncourtly \nlove. Her presence causes him unspeakable joy, \nbut his unrequited love creates unendurable \ndesires, inner conflicts between the ardent lover \nand the \nmystic \nChristian, making it impossible to reconcile the \ntwo, his quest for love a hopeless, endless agony.\n\nLaura is unreachable - the few physical \ndescriptions are vague, almost unpalpable as the \nlove pines for, and such is perhaps the power of \nhis verse, which lives off the melodies it evokes \nagainst the fading, diaphane image that is no \nmore consistent than a ghost. \nFrancesco \nDe Sanctis remarks much the same thing in his \nStoria della lera italiana, and contemporary \ncritics agree on the powerful music of his verse: \nGianfranco Contini, in a famous essay on \nPetrarch's language (\"Preliminari sulla lingua \ndel Petrarca\". Petrarca, Canzoniere. Turin, \nEinaudi, 1964) has spoken of linguistic \nindetermination - Petrarch never rises above the \n\"bel pi?\" (her lovely foot): Laura is too holy to \nbe painted, it is an awe-inspiring goddess. \nSensuality and passion are rather suggested by \nthe rhythm and music that shape the vague contours of the lady.\n\n\nNutria\n\n\n\nJames B. Jordan\nDirector, Biblical Horizons\nBox 1096\nNiceville, FL 32588\nhttp://www.biblicalhorizons.com " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4A1604A3.3050004@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-05-22T01:49:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) There Are Doors", "in_reply_to": "<20090522001251.UJXK29053.eastrmmtao107.cox.net@eastrmimpo01.cox.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James B. Jordan wrote:\nWell, but remember that Green is not too bright. He's one of Wolfe's \nsuccessful, I think, usages of a rather low IQ character who is still \ngood and good-hearted. Remember how SilkHorn has some very odd medical \nviews, which we as readers know to be wrong.\n\nI'm not really disputing you. I'm just tossing in a caveat. What Green \nthinks might not actually be so.\n\nWhat is clear is that Mama (the church) and her Boys (priests) want to \nsave (redeem) this parallel world. It's an Italian Restaurant (the \nsacramental church) that is the main Door." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wow! That totally slipped past me.\n\nSo what does the moopsball game signify? A commentary on Damon Knight?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Some may not know it, but this is Wolfe's favorite novel.\n\n\"Hi! I'm your doll! And I can talk!\" -- you gotta love it!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure what this is supposed to be, other than a sign of Wolfe's \ngeneral fondness for toy people in his stories." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7503D219208F489AB26DD4D29C942904@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-05-22T14:24:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) There Are Doors", "in_reply_to": "<4A15C933.9010404@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think the resonance theory as Green conceives it is incomplete. There \nshould be evidence of many worlds' influence on his, as well as ours on \ntheirs, as there should have been at the very least several pagan powers, \neven if they have been subsumed by Laura or the Elohim by now." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe there are. Green only goes to one, so he is only able to recognize \ninfluences of Laura's world on his.\n\nThe obvious response to this is, \"Then shouldn't Wolfe have alluded to those \nother worlds?\" Maybe, but not necessarily. But if Wolfe intended a more \nelaborate, \"particle-based\" cause for the similarities of the two worlds \n(rather than a \"wave-based\" one), I would have expected someone else to pose \nit. Unlike the mistaken expert-theorizing in Short Sun and Soldier, Green is \nthe only offering an explanation at all. Green's theorizing --I think-- is \nmore that of VRT/Marsch in \"The Fifth Head of Cerberus\": The right one but \ndelivered by a non-expert.\n\nJ. " } ] } ] }