# (no subject) *The Urth list — 15 messages, 6 voices, 20 May 2009* > Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright > in each message remains with the person who wrote it. > Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original > archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than > retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. --- ### Stuart Hamm *20 May 2009, 21:34* ??????????-\\~S~//- ? Mobile — (415) 786-3624 ???? Skype? stuart.hamm myspace.com/stuhamm ? ??? stuarthamm.net --- On Wed, 5/20/09, Stuart Hamm wrote: From: Stuart Hamm Subject: Re: (urth) (no subject) To: "Jeff Wilson" Date: Wednesday, May 20, 2009, 2:33 PM I'm not sure I ever had credibility...certainly? not on this forum...but The actors and producers and people who work on a TV show are payed up front for their work...maybe some back end $ for DVD sales...but are not payed? based on how many people actually watch the show!! When someone buys a CD at a store or online a % of that sale goes to the writer/musicians...that's the way we make money off the product. If it's shared or downloaded illegaly I lose the opportunity to make $ off my work. Sure, if I download an episode of BSG Ron Moore may lose a few $...(but I'll buy the box set anyway..) but the lion's share of his earning have been payed already,,,regardless of whether 1 million or 25 million people watched that episode. No one's gonna back me? Don't we all rush out and buy a first edition of GW's new books instead of downloading an illegal copy??? ??????????-\\~S~//- ? Mobile — (415) 786-3624 ???? Skype? stuart.hamm myspace.com/stuhamm ? ??? stuarthamm.net --- On Wed, 5/20/09, Jeff Wilson wrote: From: Jeff Wilson Subject: Re: (urth) (no subject) --- ### Jordon Flato *20 May 2009, 21:37 · in reply to Stuart Hamm* No, I certainly back you. I'll admit to having downloaded some music, but all of it is rare imported stuff I can't find elsewhere. One of my favorite bands, NoMeansNo is moving out of the CD pressing business all together and looking at a Vinyl, MP3 distribution model from now on. This will, in the long run, be great for artists, I think. But yeah, Stuart, your description of the difference between Film/TV product and music piracy is well placed. > On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 2:34 PM, Stuart Hamm wrote: > > > -\\~S~//- > > Mobile (415) 786-3624 > Skype stuart.hamm > myspace.com/stuhamm > stuarthamm.net > > > --- On *Wed, 5/20/09, Stuart Hamm * wrote: > > From: Stuart Hamm > Subject: Re: (urth) (no subject) > To: "Jeff Wilson" > Date: Wednesday, May 20, 2009, 2:33 PM > > I'm not sure I ever had credibility...certainly not on this forum...but > > The actors and producers and people who work on a TV show are payed up > front for their work...maybe some back end $ for DVD sales...but are not > payed based on how many people actually watch the show!! > When someone buys a CD at a store or online a % of that sale goes to the > writer/musicians...that's the way we make money off the product. If it's > shared or downloaded illegaly I lose the opportunity to make $ off my work. > Sure, if I download an episode of BSG Ron Moore may lose a few $...(but > I'll buy the box set anyway..) but the lion's share of his earning have been > payed already,,,regardless of whether 1 million or 25 million people watched > that episode. > > No one's gonna back me? Don't we all rush out and buy a first edition of > GW's new books instead of downloading an illegal copy??? > > -\\~S~//- > > Mobile (415) 786-3624 > Skype stuart.hamm > myspace.com/stuhamm > stuarthamm.net > > > --- On *Wed, 5/20/09, Jeff Wilson * wrote: > > From: Jeff Wilson > Subject: Re: (urth) (no subject) --- ### Adam Thornton *20 May 2009, 21:44 · in reply to Stuart Hamm* > On May 20, 2009, at 4:34 PM, Stuart Hamm wrote: > > No one's gonna back me? Don't we all rush out and buy a first > edition of GW's new books instead of downloading an illegal copy??? Yeah. My own position is that downloading media illegally is some-kind-of- bad (me, I still prefer to buy physical CDs and then rip them to iTunes, so that I have unprotected files which I can then copy to whatever music player I may have in the future that might not be an iPod), but it's not exactly *theft*. Copyright infringement is not, in my mind, the same crime as, say, stealing your TV. I do not, however, think there's a one-to-one correspondence between lost sales and illegal downloads. That is, plenty of people download things that they're idly curious about, but nowhere near enough interested in to buy. Now, one can, quite correctly, make the point that they SHOULDN'T OUGHTA BE USING IT then. Fair enough. But mainly I was just bringing it up as a counterpoint to Brunians' absolutist Property Rights statement, by pointing out that there are some things which some people consider legitimate property rights, and others do not. Adam --- ### brunians at brunians.org *20 May 2009, 21:46 · in reply to Stuart Hamm* I think it is wrong. I just don't think that it is in any way similar to burglary, extortion, muggery, barratry etc etc. I have thought for a while that y'all are going to have to figure out another paradigm as to how you extract your money from the market. You know, Mozart only got paid for the shows that he personally put on. When other people produced his stuff in other cities, he got bupkis. . > ??????????-\\~S~//- ? Mobile — (415) 786-3624 > ???? Skype? stuart.hamm > myspace.com/stuhamm > ? ??? stuarthamm.net > > > --- On Wed, 5/20/09, Stuart Hamm wrote: > From: Stuart Hamm > Subject: Re: (urth) (no subject) > To: "Jeff Wilson" > Date: Wednesday, May 20, 2009, 2:33 PM > > I'm not sure I ever had credibility...certainly? not on this forum...but > > The actors and producers and people who work on a TV show are payed up > front for their work...maybe some back end $ for DVD sales...but are not > payed? based on how many people actually watch the show!! > When someone buys a CD at a store or online a % of that sale goes to the > writer/musicians...that's the way we make money off the product. If it's > shared or downloaded illegaly I lose the opportunity to make $ off my > work. > Sure, if I download an episode of BSG Ron Moore may lose a few $...(but > I'll buy the box set anyway..) but the lion's share of his earning have > been payed already,,,regardless of whether 1 million or 25 million people > watched that episode. > > No one's gonna back me? Don't we all rush out and buy a first edition of > GW's new books instead of > downloading an illegal copy??? > > ??????????-\\~S~//- ? Mobile — (415) 786-3624 > ???? Skype? stuart.hamm > myspace.com/stuhamm > ? ??? stuarthamm.net > > > --- On Wed, 5/20/09, Jeff Wilson wrote: > From: Jeff Wilson > Subject: Re: (urth) (no subject) --- ### James Wynn *20 May 2009, 21:58 · in reply to Stuart Hamm* > No one's gonna back me? Don't we all rush out and buy a first edition > of GW's new books instead of downloading an illegal copy??? You can download copies of Wolfe's books? I wish I had those. But doesn't Wolfe get paid a % of every book you buy? And if not enough people buy the DVDs doesn't that eventually mean the actors won't be able to negotiate higher up-front pay in the future? Doesn't the whole system of paying Ron Moore money up-front come from the expectation that people will buy the DVDs rather than watch burned copies? Look, I think the RIAA goes a bit crazy over enforcing copyrights...trying to get coffee houses to pay every time somebody sings someone else's song. Still...what's good for the goose and all that. J. --- ### Stuart Hamm *20 May 2009, 22:04 · in reply to brunians at brunians.org* And look what happened to Mozart.. HE DIED!!! ??????????-\\~S~//- ? Mobile — (415) 786-3624 ???? Skype? stuart.hamm myspace.com/stuhamm ? ??? stuarthamm.net --- On Wed, 5/20/09, brunians at brunians.org wrote: From: brunians at brunians.org Subject: Re: (urth) Fw: Re: (no subject) To: hammstu at sbcglobal.net, "The Urth Mailing List" Date: Wednesday, May 20, 2009, 2:46 PM I think it is wrong. I just don't think that it is in any way similar to burglary, extortion, muggery, barratry etc etc. I have thought for a while that y'all are going to have to figure out another paradigm as to how you extract your money from the market. You know, Mozart only got paid for the shows that he personally put on. When other people produced his stuff in other cities, he got bupkis. . > ??????????-\\~S~//- ? Mobile — (415) 786-3624 > ???? Skype? stuart.hamm > myspace.com/stuhamm > ? ??? stuarthamm.net > > > --- On Wed, 5/20/09, Stuart Hamm wrote: > From: Stuart Hamm > Subject: Re: (urth) (no subject) > To: "Jeff Wilson" > Date: Wednesday, May 20, 2009, 2:33 PM > > I'm not sure I ever had credibility...certainly? not on this > forum...but > > The actors and producers and people who work on a TV show are payed up > front for their work...maybe some back end $ for DVD sales...but are not > payed? based on how many people actually watch the show!! > When someone buys a CD at a store or online a % of that sale goes to the > writer/musicians...that's the way we make money off the product. If > it's > shared or downloaded illegaly I lose the opportunity to make $ off my > work. > Sure, if I download an episode of BSG Ron Moore may lose a few $...(but > I'll buy the box set anyway..) but the lion's share of his earning > have > been payed already,,,regardless of whether 1 million or 25 million people > watched that episode. > > No one's gonna back me? Don't we all rush out and buy a first > edition of > GW's new books instead of > downloading an illegal copy??? > > ??????????-\\~S~//- ? Mobile — (415) 786-3624 > ???? Skype? stuart.hamm > myspace.com/stuhamm > ? ??? stuarthamm.net > > > --- On Wed, 5/20/09, Jeff Wilson wrote: > From: Jeff Wilson > Subject: Re: (urth) (no subject) --- ### brunians at brunians.org *20 May 2009, 22:12 · in reply to Stuart Hamm* Are there more dead people or living people? . > And look what happened to Mozart.. > HE DIED!!! > > ??????????-\\~S~//- ? Mobile — (415) 786-3624 > ???? Skype? stuart.hamm > myspace.com/stuhamm > ? ??? stuarthamm.net > > > --- On Wed, 5/20/09, brunians at brunians.org wrote: > From: brunians at brunians.org > Subject: Re: (urth) Fw: Re: (no subject) > To: hammstu at sbcglobal.net, "The Urth Mailing List" > Date: Wednesday, May 20, 2009, 2:46 PM > > I think it is wrong. I just don't think that it is in any way similar to > burglary, extortion, muggery, barratry etc etc. > > I have thought for a while that y'all are going to have to figure out > another paradigm as to how you extract your money from the market. > > You know, Mozart only got paid for the shows that he personally put on. > When other people produced his stuff in other cities, he got bupkis. > > > > > > . >> ??????????-\\~S~//- ? Mobile — (415) 786-3624 >> ???? Skype? stuart.hamm >> myspace.com/stuhamm >> ? ??? stuarthamm.net >> >> >> --- On Wed, 5/20/09, Stuart Hamm wrote: >> From: Stuart Hamm >> Subject: Re: (urth) (no subject) >> To: "Jeff Wilson" >> Date: Wednesday, May 20, 2009, 2:33 PM >> >> I'm not sure I ever had credibility...certainly? not on this >> forum...but >> >> The actors and producers and people who work on a TV show are payed up >> front for their work...maybe some back end $ for DVD sales...but are not >> payed? based on how many people actually watch the show!! >> When someone buys a CD at a store or online a % of that sale goes to the >> writer/musicians...that's the way we make money off the product. If >> it's >> shared or downloaded illegaly I lose the opportunity to make $ off my >> work. >> Sure, if I download an episode of BSG Ron Moore may lose a few $...(but >> I'll buy the box set anyway..) but the lion's share of his earning >> have >> been payed already,,,regardless of whether 1 million or 25 million >> people >> watched that episode. >> >> No one's gonna back me? Don't we all rush out and buy a first >> edition of >> GW's new books instead of >> downloading an illegal copy??? >> >> ??????????-\\~S~//- ? Mobile — (415) 786-3624 >> ???? Skype? stuart.hamm >> myspace.com/stuhamm >> ? ??? stuarthamm.net >> >> >> --- On Wed, 5/20/09, Jeff Wilson wrote: >> From: Jeff Wilson >> Subject: Re: (urth) (no subject) --- ### Gwern Branwen *20 May 2009, 22:14 · in reply to James Wynn* > On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 5:58 PM, James Wynn wrote: > You can download copies of Wolfe's books? I wish I had those. Oh sure. There're plenty of ebook copies. They're awfully handy for searching. I haven't even tried (I got the ebooks from some torrents when I was looking for Niven stuff), but I've most of the major bits of Wolfeania. Since I know someone will be curious exactly what, here's a list: afishstory.pdf againstthelafayetteescadrille.pdf atthepointofcapricorn.pdf beaandherbirdbrother.pdf castaway.pdf comber.pdf copperhead.pdf countingcatsinzanzibar.pdf detectiveofdreams.pdf eastersunday.pdf ebookdeathofdrisland.txt endangeredspecies.pdf greenglass.pdf johnk.kinderprice.pdf labefana.pdf longsun1nightsidethelongsun.pdf longsun2lakeofthelongsun.pdf longsun3caldeofthelongsun.pdf longsun4exodusfromthelongsun.pdf marybeatricesmootfriarlyspv.pdf memorare.pdf morningglory.pdf newsun03theswordofthelictorv1.0html.rar newsun04thecitadeloftheautarchrtf.rar newsun1theshadowofthetorturer.pdf newsun1theshadowofthetorturer.rar newsun2theclawoftheconciliator.pdf newsun2theclawoftheconcilliator.rar newsun3theswordofthelictor.pdf newsun3theurthofthenewsun.rar newsun4thecitadeloftheautarch.pdf newsun5theurthofthenewsun.pdf paulstreehouse.pdf peritonitis.pdf pettingzoo.pdf queenv1.0.pdf sevenamericannights.pdf shortsun01onblueswaters.pdf talkofmandrakes.pdf thearimaspianlegacy.pdf theboywhohookedthesun.pdf thecaseofthevanishingghost.pdf thedeadman.pdf thedeathofdr.island.pdf theeyeflashmiracles.pdf thefifthheadofcerberus.pdf thehorarsofwar.pdf theislandofdoctordeath.txt theislandofdr.death.pdf thelostpilgrim.pdf themaninthepeppermill.pdf theotherdeadman.pdf therearedoors.pdf thesoldier01.soldierofthemist.pdf thewaif.pdf theziggurat.pdf underhill.pdf viewpoint.pdf warbeneaththetree.pdf ``` gwern ``` --- ### Gwern Branwen *20 May 2009, 22:15 · in reply to brunians at brunians.org* > On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 6:12 PM, wrote: > Are there more dead people or living people? "There is no category of human activity in which the dead do not outnumber the living many times over. Most beautiful children are dead. Most soldiers, most cowards. The fairest women and the most learned men all are dead?Who can say how intently they listen as we speak, or for what word?" (Severian, _Citadel of the Autarch_) ``` gwern ``` --- ### brunians at brunians.org *20 May 2009, 22:21 · in reply to Gwern Branwen* Some there I haven't read. Where do you gettum, Gwern? . > On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 5:58 PM, James Wynn wrote: >> You can download copies of Wolfe's books? I wish I had those. > Oh sure. There're plenty of ebook copies. They're awfully handy for > searching. I haven't even tried (I got the ebooks from some torrents > when I was looking for Niven stuff), but I've most of the major bits > of Wolfeania. Since I know someone will be curious exactly what, > here's a list: > > afishstory.pdf > againstthelafayetteescadrille.pdf > atthepointofcapricorn.pdf > beaandherbirdbrother.pdf > castaway.pdf > comber.pdf > copperhead.pdf > countingcatsinzanzibar.pdf > detectiveofdreams.pdf > eastersunday.pdf > ebookdeathofdrisland.txt > endangeredspecies.pdf > greenglass.pdf > johnk.kinderprice.pdf > labefana.pdf > longsun1nightsidethelongsun.pdf > longsun2lakeofthelongsun.pdf > longsun3caldeofthelongsun.pdf > longsun4exodusfromthelongsun.pdf > marybeatricesmootfriarlyspv.pdf > memorare.pdf > morningglory.pdf > newsun03theswordofthelictorv1.0html.rar > newsun04thecitadeloftheautarchrtf.rar > newsun1theshadowofthetorturer.pdf > newsun1theshadowofthetorturer.rar > newsun2theclawoftheconciliator.pdf > newsun2theclawoftheconcilliator.rar > newsun3theswordofthelictor.pdf > newsun3theurthofthenewsun.rar > newsun4thecitadeloftheautarch.pdf > newsun5theurthofthenewsun.pdf > paulstreehouse.pdf > peritonitis.pdf > pettingzoo.pdf > queenv1.0.pdf > sevenamericannights.pdf > shortsun01onblueswaters.pdf > talkofmandrakes.pdf > thearimaspianlegacy.pdf > theboywhohookedthesun.pdf > thecaseofthevanishingghost.pdf > thedeadman.pdf > thedeathofdr.island.pdf > theeyeflashmiracles.pdf > thefifthheadofcerberus.pdf > thehorarsofwar.pdf > theislandofdoctordeath.txt > theislandofdr.death.pdf > thelostpilgrim.pdf > themaninthepeppermill.pdf > theotherdeadman.pdf > therearedoors.pdf > thesoldier01.soldierofthemist.pdf > thewaif.pdf > theziggurat.pdf > underhill.pdf > viewpoint.pdf > warbeneaththetree.pdf > > -- > gwern > _______________________________________________ --- ### brunians at brunians.org *20 May 2009, 22:21 · in reply to Gwern Branwen* Nope. There are more living people. Dead people are not. . > On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 6:12 PM, wrote: >> Are there more dead people or living people? > "There is no category of human activity in which the dead do not > outnumber the living many times over. Most beautiful children are > dead. Most soldiers, most cowards. The fairest women and the most > learned men???all are dead???Who can say how intently they listen as we > speak, or for what word?" > > (Severian, _Citadel of the Autarch_) > > -- > gwern > _______________________________________________ --- ### Adam Thornton *20 May 2009, 22:26 · in reply to brunians at brunians.org* > On May 20, 2009, at 5:21 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote: > Nope. > > There are more living people. Hey! This is now, that will be then! > Dead people are not. Not people? Why am I thinking of the Jonathan Coulton song, "Re: Your Brains" ? "I'm not a monster, Tom.... Well, technically I am. I guess I am." Adam >> On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 6:12 PM, wrote: >>> Are there more dead people or living people? >> "There is no category of human activity in which the dead do not >> outnumber the living many times over. Most beautiful children are >> dead. Most soldiers, most cowards. The fairest women and the most >> learned men???all are dead???Who can say how intently they listen >> as we >> speak, or for what word?" >> >> (Severian, _Citadel of the Autarch_) --- ### Adam Thornton *20 May 2009, 22:28 · in reply to Adam Thornton* > On May 20, 2009, at 5:26 PM, Adam Thornton wrote: > > On May 20, 2009, at 5:21 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote: >> Nope. >> >> There are more living people. > Hey! This is now, that will be then! >> Dead people are not. > Not people? > > Why am I thinking of the Jonathan Coulton song, "Re: Your Brains" ? > > "I'm not a monster, Tom.... > Well, technically I am. > I guess I am." Oh, heh, there's an Oreb thing in there too: "All we wanna do is eat your brains We're not unreasonable. I mean, no one's gonna eat your eyes." Adam --- ### Gwern Branwen *20 May 2009, 22:39 · in reply to brunians at brunians.org* -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 > On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 6:21 PM, > wrote: > Some there I haven't read. Where do you gettum, Gwern? - From Isohunt for the most part. Particularly impressive is one group which regularly releases batches of 'Science Fiction and Fantasy'; it's remarkable how recent releases turn up in their torrents, and how comprehensive they generally are. (I just tried searching for Sanderson's recent _Hero of Ages_ since I was in the middle of it when an acquaintance took it back, and sure enough, it was in one of their update torrents.) - -- gwern -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEAREKAAYFAkoUhowACgkQvpDo5Pfl1oJ5sQCfWhwjO4mVfwdGU+TqIft6RPX+ QfgAoIj3DrQ1ULpPkTcGuhxmprOKIBwU =YpEP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --- ### brunians at brunians.org *20 May 2009, 23:46 · in reply to Adam Thornton* > On May 20, 2009, at 5:21 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote: >> Nope. >> There are more living people. > Hey! This is now, that will be then! That was now. This is now, now. >> Dead people are not. > Not people? Just not. > Why am I thinking of the Jonathan Coulton song, "Re: Your Brains" ? > "I'm not a monster, Tom.... > Well, technically I am. > I guess I am." All we wanna do is eat your brains! . ---