{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5456", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5456, "subject": "PEACE: the source story", "messages": 10, "voices": 6, "first": "2009-06-01T23:45:57+00:00", "last": "2009-06-10T21:07:24+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Christopher Keiser", "address": "slowalrus at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-06-01T23:45:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) PEACE: the source story", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hello there?Urth.net, long time lurker, first time poster.\n\nI am suffering, at the moment, a specific mental ailment, Eireneomania.\n\nDuring my third consecutive read, an allusion that had been nibbling\naway in my brain finally chewed its way free.\n\n\"An Inhabitant of Carcosa\", by Ambrose Bierce, is the the source story\nfor _PEACE_.\n\nhttp://www.ambrosebierce.org/carcosa.html\n\nIn interviews, Gene Wolfe always points to one or another story as the\nroot source of his story, the seed of the idea.\n\nNever would I say anything is 100% with Wolfe, but, I will say it now:\nthis story is the seed of _PEACE_.\n\nI believe this will also support the theory that Weer is dead, though\nI am not sure anyone at this point believed otherwise. My favorite\ninterpretation of _PEACE_ places Weer's ghost in the far future,\nafter the fall of our civilization. \"An Inhabitant of Carcosa\" would\nsupport that hypotheses.\n\nI hope this is not a repeat of something previously posted to Urth. I\ndid a search on Urth, and the Internet in general, and found nothing\nsimilar.\n\nHave a read, any feedback would be appreciated. Please tell me I am not crazy.\n\nThanks,\nChris Keiser" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-06-02T00:49:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) PEACE: the source story", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 1, 2009, at 6:45 PM, Christopher Keiser wrote:\nDuring my third consecutive read, an allusion that had been nibbling\naway in my brain finally chewed its way free.\n\n\"An Inhabitant of Carcosa\", by Ambrose Bierce, is the the source story\nfor _PEACE_." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My head asplode.\n\nI need to reread the Bierce, but I don't think I disagree.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-06-02T01:11:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) PEACE: the source story", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----\nHash: SHA512" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 7:45 PM, Christopher Keiser wrote:\nHello there Urth.net, long time lurker, first time poster.\n\nI am suffering, at the moment, a specific mental ailment, Eireneomania.\n\nDuring my third consecutive read, an allusion that had been nibbling\naway in my brain finally chewed its way free.\n\n\"An Inhabitant of Carcosa\", by Ambrose Bierce, is the the source story\nfor _PEACE_.\n\nhttp://www.ambrosebierce.org/carcosa.html\n\nIn interviews, Gene Wolfe always points to one or another story as the\nroot source of his story, the seed of the idea.\n\nNever would I say anything is 100% with Wolfe, but, I will say it now:\nthis story is the seed of _PEACE_.\n\nI believe this will also support the theory that Weer is dead, though\nI am not sure anyone at this point believed otherwise. My favorite\ninterpretation of _PEACE_ places Weer's ghost in the far future,\nafter the fall of our civilization. \"An Inhabitant of Carcosa\" would\nsupport that hypotheses.\n\nI hope this is not a repeat of something previously posted to Urth. I\ndid a search on Urth, and the Internet in general, and found nothing\nsimilar.\n\nHave a read, any feedback would be appreciated. Please tell me I am not crazy.\n\nThanks," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The first time through that story, my head asploded as well, until I\nlooked up the dates and realized that _The King in Yellow_ had\nborrowed the names like Hyades and Carcosa from this story, rather\nthan some other avenue of influence.\n\nThe second time, I don't really see any smoking gun. There must surely\nhave been other stories where the narrator is a ghost who finally\nrealizes his spectral nature; just off the top of my head, I'm sure\nthere was a _Twilight Zones_ episode like that. Do we have any\nconnection beside the generic ghostly narrator?\n\n- --\ngwern\n-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----\nVersion: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)\n\niEYEAREKAAYFAkokfFgACgkQvpDo5Pfl1oL3mACgnBT43YiP0fbxJjshdegSGoKH\nItoAn1X2Ooj/hI3ic5JM92hT/R6UVW8P\n=AbTZ\n-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Christopher Keiser", "address": "slowalrus at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-06-02T03:21:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) PEACE: the source story", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The first time through that story, my head asploded as well, until I\nlooked up the dates and realized that _The King in Yellow_ had\nborrowed the names like Hyades and Carcosa from this story, rather\nthan some other avenue of influence." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The second time, I don't really see any smoking gun. There must surely\nhave been other stories where the narrator is a ghost who finally\nrealizes his spectral nature; just off the top of my head, I'm sure\nthere was a _Twilight Zones_ episode like that. Do we have any\nconnection beside the generic ghostly narrator?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "- --\ngwern\n\nThat is certainly an honest request, considering Gene Wolfe.\n\n1. Hoseib Alar Robardin finds his grave entangled in the roots of a tree.\n\n2. The narrator does not know that he is dead.\n\n3. Obviously, The inclusion of the _Morryster's Marvells of Science_\nshows that Wolfe is familar with Bierce (of course, is there anything\nwith which he isn't familiar?). The inclusion of the three mythos\ntomes, (Bierce, Lovecraft and Bloch), another substrata of the novel,\ndisplays more than a passing fancy regarding authors borrowing\nfictional books from each other, and thereby strengthening their\n'reality'.\n\n4. The motif \"all are dead, all is gone, I am alone\" is repeated many\ntimes in _PEACE_.\n\n5. Savages now inhabit the world ... Iroquois inherit Cassionsville\nafter Blaine dies\n\n6. \"I continued, 'I am ill and lost. Direct me, I beseech you, to\nCarcosa.' ... very similar to Weer's conversations with many\ncharacters.\n\n7. And the smoking gun ...\n\n\"A chorus of howling wolves saluted the dawn. I saw them sitting on\ntheir haunches, singly and in groups, on the summits of irregular\nmounds and tumuli filling a half of my desert prospect and extending\nto the horizon. And then I knew that these were ruins of the ancient\nand famous city of Carcosa.\"\n\nGene Wolfe is obviously his own grandfather, and has traveled back in\ntime, influencing Ambrose to include the image of Wolf in his short\nstory, so that a young Wolf may appropriate it for his first novel.\n;-)\n\nSeriously, I think I will reread _PEACE_ again, find perhaps some textual proof.\n\nThanks," } ] }, { "message_id": "<4A26A715.5040502@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-06-03T16:38:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) PEACE: the source story", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Chris, you're definitely crazy.\n\nBut only because you have laid eyes on things Man was not meant to see, \nand uncovered secrets Man was not meant to know.\n\nSo you should just go with it!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "----------------------------------------------------------------------\n\nMessage: 1\nDate: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 19:45:57 -0400\nFrom: Christopher Keiser \nSubject: (urth) PEACE: the source story\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nMessage-ID:\n\t\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1\n\nHello there?Urth.net, long time lurker, first time poster.\n\nI am suffering, at the moment, a specific mental ailment, Eireneomania.\n\nDuring my third consecutive read, an allusion that had been nibbling\naway in my brain finally chewed its way free.\n\n\"An Inhabitant of Carcosa\", by Ambrose Bierce, is the the source story\nfor _PEACE_.\n\nhttp://www.ambrosebierce.org/carcosa.html\n\nIn interviews, Gene Wolfe always points to one or another story as the\nroot source of his story, the seed of the idea.\n\nNever would I say anything is 100% with Wolfe, but, I will say it now:\nthis story is the seed of _PEACE_.\n\nI believe this will also support the theory that Weer is dead, though\nI am not sure anyone at this point believed otherwise. My favorite\ninterpretation of _PEACE_ places Weer's ghost in the far future,\nafter the fall of our civilization. \"An Inhabitant of Carcosa\" would\nsupport that hypotheses.\n\nI hope this is not a repeat of something previously posted to Urth. I\ndid a search on Urth, and the Internet in general, and found nothing\nsimilar.\n\nHave a read, any feedback would be appreciated. Please tell me I am not \ncrazy.\n\nThanks,\nChris Keiser\n\n\n------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew King", "address": "automatthew at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-06-10T17:02:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) PEACE: the source story", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 6:45 PM, Christopher Keiser wrote:\n\"An Inhabitant of Carcosa\", by Ambrose Bierce, is the the source story\nfor _PEACE_.\n\nhttp://www.ambrosebierce.org/carcosa.html" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From the first paragraph:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"In one kind of death the spirit also dieth, and this it hath been\nknown to do while yet the body was in vigor for many years. Sometimes,\nas is veritably attested, it dieth with the body, but after a season\nis raised up again in that place where the body did decay.\"\n\nSilk died the first kind, Horn the second?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Christopher Keiser", "address": "slowalrus at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-06-10T17:05:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) PEACE: the source story", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, I was speaking specifically about the Novel _PEACE_, but, it\nmay apply there also." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 1:02 PM, Matthew King wrote:\nOn Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 6:45 PM, Christopher Keiser wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"An Inhabitant of Carcosa\", by Ambrose Bierce, is the the source story\nfor _PEACE_.\n\nhttp://www.ambrosebierce.org/carcosa.html" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From the first paragraph:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"In one kind of death the spirit also dieth, and this it hath been\nknown to do while yet the body was in vigor for many years. Sometimes,\nas is veritably attested, it dieth with the body, but after a season\nis raised up again in that place where the body did decay.\"\n\nSilk died the first kind, Horn the second?\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<11714.67.142.130.24.1244655161.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-06-10T17:32:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) PEACE: the source story", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "These metaphysical ideas were around long before Bierce.\n\nNot to talk him down: Ambrose Bierce is excellent. His descriptions of\ncombat and war particularly. I don't doubt that Wolfe has read him.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Actually, I was speaking specifically about the Novel _PEACE_, but, it\nmay apply there also.\n\nOn Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 1:02 PM, Matthew King\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 6:45 PM, Christopher Keiser\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "\"An Inhabitant of Carcosa\", by Ambrose Bierce, is the the source story\nfor _PEACE_.\n\nhttp://www.ambrosebierce.org/carcosa.html" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "From the first paragraph:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"In one kind of death the spirit also dieth, and this it hath been\nknown to do while yet the body was in vigor for many years. Sometimes,\nas is veritably attested, it dieth with the body, but after a season\nis raised up again in that place where the body did decay.\"\n\nSilk died the first kind, Horn the second?\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Christopher Keiser", "address": "slowalrus at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-06-10T20:00:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) PEACE: the source story", "in_reply_to": "<11714.67.142.130.24.1244655161.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can't disagree with you. Those were not novel ideas from Bierce.\n\nWhat I was suggesting was that this short story was the seed of the\nidea for Wolfe. He always seems to mention \"Oh, I got that story from\n[this or that story].\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 1:32 PM, wrote:\nThese metaphysical ideas were around long before Bierce.\n\nNot to talk him down: Ambrose Bierce is excellent. His descriptions of\ncombat and war particularly. I don't doubt that Wolfe has read him.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Actually, I was speaking specifically about the Novel _PEACE_, but, it\nmay apply there also.\n\nOn Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 1:02 PM, Matthew King\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 6:45 PM, Christopher Keiser\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "\"An Inhabitant of Carcosa\", by Ambrose Bierce, is the the source story\nfor _PEACE_.\n\nhttp://www.ambrosebierce.org/carcosa.html" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "From the first paragraph:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "\"In one kind of death the spirit also dieth, and this it hath been\nknown to do while yet the body was in vigor for many years. Sometimes,\nas is veritably attested, it dieth with the body, but after a season\nis raised up again in that place where the body did decay.\"\n\nSilk died the first kind, Horn the second?\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2687.67.142.130.12.1244668044.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-06-10T21:07:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) PEACE: the source story", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That is possible. Someone should ask him at some point, and we will know.\n\nI wouldn't be surprised if Wolfe's descriptions of war and combat owed\nsomething to Bierce.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I can't disagree with you. Those were not novel ideas from Bierce.\n\nWhat I was suggesting was that this short story was the seed of the\nidea for Wolfe. He always seems to mention \"Oh, I got that story from\n[this or that story].\"\n\nOn Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 1:32 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "These metaphysical ideas were around long before Bierce.\n\nNot to talk him down: Ambrose Bierce is excellent. His descriptions of\ncombat and war particularly. I don't doubt that Wolfe has read him.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Actually, I was speaking specifically about the Novel _PEACE_, but, it\nmay apply there also.\n\nOn Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 1:02 PM, Matthew King\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 6:45 PM, Christopher\nKeiser\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "\"An Inhabitant of Carcosa\", by Ambrose Bierce, is the the source\nstory\nfor _PEACE_.\n\nhttp://www.ambrosebierce.org/carcosa.html" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "From the first paragraph:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "\"In one kind of death the spirit also dieth, and this it hath been\nknown to do while yet the body was in vigor for many years. Sometimes,\nas is veritably attested, it dieth with the body, but after a season\nis raised up again in that place where the body did decay.\"\n\nSilk died the first kind, Horn the second?\n_______________________________________________" } ] } ] }