{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5459", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5459, "subject": "Wolfe at Readercon", "messages": 55, "voices": 22, "first": "2009-06-26T00:57:49+00:00", "last": "2009-07-31T16:25:46+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<0165441A-0A9C-414D-84A8-F6DC738E5C35@videotron.ca>", "from": { "name": "Yves Meynard", "address": "meynard at videotron.ca" }, "date": "2009-06-26T00:57:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe at Readercon", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can heartily recommend Readercon to anyone who appreciates Wolfe's \nwork. You're likely to find a lot of people who share your tastes. I \nknow I'll be there (but then, I always am).\n\nYves" } ] }, { "message_id": "<44fb53d10906251926m5138dbf6sa7c41bac5aea4542@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-06-26T02:26:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe at Readercon", "in_reply_to": "<0165441A-0A9C-414D-84A8-F6DC738E5C35@videotron.ca>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Didn't realize you still subscribed to Urth, though I did see your\nname on the Readercon guest list. I take it you'll be appearing on\nsome panels? In any case, if I go, I'll make sure to bring along my\ncopy of The Book of Knights.\n\nAnd is anyone else on this list going? I know there's a lot of\n\"geographical diversity\" here, but surely there's more than one Urth\nlister in New England?\n\n-Matt" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 8:57 PM, Yves Meynard wrote:\nI can heartily recommend Readercon to anyone who appreciates Wolfe's work.\nYou're likely to find a lot of people who share your tastes. I know I'll be\nthere (but then, I always am).\n\nYves\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<44fb53d10907181957w47bb39c6gb68a27efb5075066@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-07-19T02:57:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe at Readercon", "in_reply_to": "<44fb53d10906251926m5138dbf6sa7c41bac5aea4542@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As I wouldn't have learned of Readercon were it not for this list, I\nthink I would be remiss if I didn't tell you something about the\nconvention.\n\nReadercon was in Burlington, Massachusetts, about an hour away from my\nhouse. As I didn't have three hundred dollars to spend on a hotel room\n(Pity the poor impoverished grad), I decided to commute back and forth\neach day. As a result, I didn't get to stay very late every day and I\ndoubtless missed many fine and interesting things. As this is the Urth\nList, I'm only going to discuss Wolfe-related events at the con,\nthough there were several other Major Writers there, including John\nCrowley and Samuel Delany.\n\nFriday\n\nThis was my first con, and it's a trifle intimidating to finish\nregistration and then see your one of your favorite writers standing\nnot twenty feet away. Mr. Wolfe was scheduled to speak at the day's\nfirst panel, on \"Egocentrism and Creativity.\" I walked into the room\ntwenty minutes before the program was scheduled to start, screwed up\nmy courage, and approached Gene and Rosemary Wolfe. I said I was a\ngreat fan of his work, etc. etc. Wolfe, as it turns out, is a much\nnicer person than most of his characters. He introduced me to Rosemary\nand to Patrick O'Leary, who was sitting with them. I saw Wolfe several\ntimes throughout the weekend, and he always knew my name, even when I\nwas too far away for him to read my nametag. Great guy.\n\nThe panel itself was very good; when asked to introduce himself, Wolfe\njust said \"I practically invented Pringles.\" There was a lot of\napplause. Three writers / books that Wolfe says most influenced him:\nG.K. Chesterton, Ruth Plumly Thompson, Style Guide for Engineers (I'm\nnot sure on that exact title). The Plumly Thompson pick confused one\nof the other panelists; Wolfe defended her merits over fellow\nOz-writer L. Frank Baum.\n\n(Note that this next portion includes some spoilers for future works\nand for An Evil Guest)\n\nOne of Readercon's specialties is the \"Kaffeeklatsch,\" where writers\nmeet over coffee with ten or so of their fans. Wolfe's Kaffeeklatsch\nwas on Friday, I made sure to sign up early. The \"klatsches\" take\nplace in normal hotel rooms, though the beds have been replaced with\nround tables. Wolfe's klatsch was standing-room-only. When I asked\nwhat Wolfe was working on, he talked a little about Home Fires, the\nsecond draft of which he finished in February. Apparently it involves\nan energy-poor future Earth, an interstellar war, and complications in\nlove arriving as a result of time dilation. Wolfe is also writing a\nshort story about a talking refrigerator (!) and has written a story\ncalled \"King Rat\" for a Frederick Pohl tribute anthology. Wolfe also\nbriefly discussed his past position as head of the Science Fiction\nPoetry Association. Apparently many readers would approach him with\ntheir poems. Wolfe would ask who their favorite poets were, and they\nwould respond that they didn't read poetry, they wrote it. One gets\nthe impression Wolfe suffered much in this job. Wolfe said his\nfavorite of his novels changes from day to day, but Peace is generally\nnear the top of the list. He also said An Evil Guest was the most fun\nto write; he felt bad leaving Cassie. He also said that Bill Reis was\nan interesting villain because \"he was so close to being a hero\" but\nhe still wanted to make himself \"dictator\" of Earth. I suppose this\nhelps AEG interpretation a bit?\n\nLater in the day, Wolfe was on a panel about \"Words as Magic.\" John\nCrowley discussed the Old Masters' \"underpainting\" technique; he said\nWolfe's books give the sense of having been thoroughly-prepared and\n\"underpainted\" in the same way. Crowley, unsurprisingly, was far more\neloquent there than I am here. Alas, I left after this panel, so I\nmissed Wolfe, Patrick O'Leary, Yves Meynard, and Michael Cisco\ndiscussing \"Reality and Dream in Fiction.\"\n(http://www.essentialvermeer.com/technique/technique_underpainting.html)\n\nSaturday\n\nWolfe was scheduled to read from The Sorcerer's House, which the\nReadercon program says is coming out next year. I arrived late, so it\nwasn't until after the reading finished that Wolfe had been reading\nhis new short story \"King Rat.\" It has lions and spiders and\nelephants, oh my, and is blackly comic. It is nothing at all like what\nI've heard Sorcerer's House is like, so I felt pretty silly.\n\nSunday\n\nAlas, I didn't attend any Lupine panels or events Sunday. I did,\nhowever, buy a few Wolfe books at the Readercon bookshop. David\nHartwell was selling a bunch of books; I picked up a copy of\nOperations Ares from him for $5. The book was signed, which rather\nsurprised me. Mr. Hartwell says Wolfe no longer cringes quite so much\nwhen he sees his first novel and is now willing to sign copies.\n\nAll in all a fantastic weekend - Readercon was absolutely full of\nwriters I like and admire, and they all seemed to be extremely nice\npeople. If you're in the New England area, definitely consider\nReadercon next year.\n\n-Matt" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-07-19T03:13:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe at Readercon", "in_reply_to": "<44fb53d10907181957w47bb39c6gb68a27efb5075066@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 18, 2009, at 9:57 PM, Matthew Keeley wrote:\nThe Plumly Thompson pick confused one\nof the other panelists; Wolfe defended her merits over fellow\nOz-writer L. Frank Baum." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I respect Gene Wolfe a great deal, but he's JUST PLAIN WRONG on this \none.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<874ot9fjbk.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu>", "from": { "name": "Russ Allbery", "address": "rra at stanford.edu" }, "date": "2009-07-19T03:22:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe at Readercon", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Adam Thornton writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 18, 2009, at 9:57 PM, Matthew Keeley wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The Plumly Thompson pick confused one of the other panelists; Wolfe\ndefended her merits over fellow Oz-writer L. Frank Baum." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I respect Gene Wolfe a great deal, but he's JUST PLAIN WRONG on this\none." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, I was going to say -- that's the first time I've ever heard anyone\nsay anything positive about Ruth Plumly Thompson's Oz books. I'm now\n*very* curious what he sees in them and what arguments he was making." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Russ Allbery (rra at stanford.edu) " } ] }, { "message_id": "<44fb53d10907191820o2a0e5dd5g5df11a6bd57d043b@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-07-20T01:20:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe at Readercon", "in_reply_to": "<44fb53d10907181957w47bb39c6gb68a27efb5075066@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Forgot to mention that someone asked Wolfe about the prospect of\nanother Latro book. He didn't rule it out, but did say he's getting\nolder.\n\n-Matt" } ] }, { "message_id": "<982C6DA7C2F14C919646F0A89CD3AF87@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-07-20T14:19:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe at Readercon", "in_reply_to": "<44fb53d10907181957w47bb39c6gb68a27efb5075066@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks for the run-down, Matthew. \n\nDo you remember what Wolfe's defense of Ruth Plumly Thompson was?\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<44fb53d10907201048o2712564bgbe3c1ebea056b6be@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-07-20T17:48:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe at Readercon", "in_reply_to": "<982C6DA7C2F14C919646F0A89CD3AF87@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Jul 20, 2009 at 10:19 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nThanks for the run-down, Matthew.\nDo you remember what Wolfe's defense of Ruth Plumly Thompson was?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It wasn't very specific or prolonged; he just said he liked her and\nthought she was underrated. Allen Steele disagreed with him, but the\nconversation was quite short.\n\n-Matt" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "JBarach at aol.com", "address": "jbarach at aol.com" }, "date": "2009-07-20T18:33:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe at Readercon", "in_reply_to": "<44fb53d10907201048o2712564bgbe3c1ebea056b6be@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nJames Wynn writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Do you remember what Wolfe's defense of Ruth\nPlumly Thompson was?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI don't know about Wolfe, but here's what Lin Carter once wrote:\n \n*********************************\n\nAnd this past year we lost another writer to whom I owe a deep personal \ndebt -- Miss Ruth Plumly Thompson, of Oz and Philadelphia. When in her \ntwenties, she picked up the Oz books after the death of L. Frank Baum, and \ncontinued to write them, one a year, for most of her life. Her twenty-second Oz \nbook, The Enchanted Island of Oz, has just been published posthumously. \nShe died on April 6, 1976.\n \nThe Oz books are the best and the greatest children's books in American \nliterature. And their excellence, their sparkling sense of fun and \nadventurous swagger and endless color and variety, are due in very large measure to \nMiss Thompson. It was these books (and, in particular, *her* contributions \nto the series) that first caught and held my interest in my boyhood. I \nowe it entirely to Miss Thompson that, early on, I was turned in the \ndirection of fantasy. Bless her ... she was a lovely lady. -- Lin Carter, \n\"Introduction,\" The Year's Best Fantasy Stories: 3 (DAW, 1977).\n\n*********************************\n \nWolfe also has mentioned her contributions (alongside Baum's) more than \nonce in interviews \n \n_http://tinyurl.com/nnk3qq_ (http://tinyurl.com/nnk3qq) \n \n_http://www.depauw.edu/sfs/interviews/wolfe46interview.htm_ \n(http://www.depauw.edu/sfs/interviews/wolfe46interview.htm) \n \n \nJohn\n \n \n \n\n\n\n\n**************What's for dinner tonight? Find quick and easy dinner ideas \nfor any occasion. \n(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?ncid=emlcntusfood00000008)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<937432300907201405q4cff2556xf2ddc86f7823e8f6@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Milton Jackson", "address": "miltonwjackson at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-07-20T21:05:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe at Readercon", "in_reply_to": "<44fb53d10907191820o2a0e5dd5g5df11a6bd57d043b@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think Wolfe's done all he can do with Latro short of killing the character\noff. Althought Soldier of Sidon can't claim the level of writing its\npredecessors had, it still was a fine book and, I believe, a great place to\nend the story. Wolfe is known for leaving things out of his writings so the\nreaders can exercise their imaginations and reach their own conclusions\n(sometimes radically different from person to person) about his worlds and\ncharacters. I say let it stand at that. He's done a remarkable job with\nLatro, and as the much-lamented Robert E Howard did with Red Nails, his last\ntale of the great barbarian Conan, he's said as much as anyone can expect of\nthe character and should feel the need to direct his considerable talents\nelsewhere." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, Jul 19, 2009 at 9:20 PM, Matthew Keeley\nwrote:\nForgot to mention that someone asked Wolfe about the prospect of\nanother Latro book. He didn't rule it out, but did say he's getting\nolder.\n\n-Matt\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "JBarach at aol.com", "address": "jbarach at aol.com" }, "date": "2009-07-20T23:10:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe at Readercon", "in_reply_to": "<937432300907201405q4cff2556xf2ddc86f7823e8f6@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nMilton writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think Wolfe's done all he can do with Latro short of killing\nthe character off. Althought Soldier of Sidon can't claim\nthe level of writing its predecessors had, it still was a fine\nbook and, I believe, a great place to end the story." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI haven't read Sidon yet, but ... surely the matter of his memory-problem \nhas yet to be resolved. That is, I assume Wolfe didn't intend it to be \njust some weird feature that plays no role in the plot but that allows Wolfe to \n do some fun stuff with the narrative. \n \nOf course, that may have been how the idea originated (\"What if I had a \ncharacter who couldn't remember more than a day at a time?\"), but it seems to \nme that Wolfe usually DOES something with those sorts of ideas. As he says \nin one of his essays or interviews about writing, many people think they \nhave a great idea for a story when they come up with an idea for the premise \nof a story or the opening of the story (\"What if a guy couldn't remember \nmore than a day at a time?\"). But what is important is knowing the *end* of \nthe story and how the story gets to it. \n \nSo if Wolfe came up with this particular idea, it seems consistent to me to \n think that Wolfe had some idea of where he wanted to go with the idea. \nIt's not just a gimmick to allow, for instance, characters to deceive Latro \nbecause he can't remember that they were untrustworthy. It's going \nsomewhere. The memory loss happened for a reason, and therefore it is something \nthat is both resolvable and needing resolution. \n \nOr so it seems to me. Now you'll tell me that all that stuff was cleared \nup in Sidon....\n \nJohn\n\n\n \n**************What's for dinner tonight? Find quick and easy dinner ideas \nfor any occasion. \n(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?ncid=emlcntusfood00000008)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<937432300907201624h5b34eb6cibf8db3a60a560cf6@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Milton Jackson", "address": "miltonwjackson at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-07-20T23:24:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe at Readercon", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'll tell you no such thing. You'll have to read the book to determine what\nyou think of what Wolfe does with Latro. One thing any Wolfe fan should know\nis that Wolfe rarely gives a traditional resolution to his works. They are\noften openended and incomplete in ways that would damage other authors'\nreputations though. Wolfe is a writer who rewards both perception and\nrepeated delving into his worlds by his readers. If you expect the Latro\nsequence to go from A to Z, then you're reading the wrong books. If you\nexpect a more Citizen Kane-style mode of storytelling filled with lacunae,\nsubtle hints, and endings that leave a sense of wonder rather than\ncompletion, then you're definitely reading the right books. Others may\ndisagree with me, but my perception of Soldier of Sidon is that it\neffectively brings the sequence to the closest thing to closure it needs.\nAnything else, to me--unless superbly done (something Wolfe is quite capable\nof)--would be meaningless windowdressing." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Jul 20, 2009 at 7:10 PM, wrote:\n Milton writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think Wolfe's done all he can do with Latro short of killing\nthe character off. Althought Soldier of Sidon can't claim\nthe level of writing its predecessors had, it still was a fine\nbook and, I believe, a great place to end the story." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I haven't read Sidon yet, but ... surely the matter of his memory-problem\nhas yet to be resolved. That is, I assume Wolfe didn't intend it to be just\nsome weird feature that plays no role in the plot but that allows Wolfe to\ndo some fun stuff with the narrative.\n\nOf course, that may have been how the idea originated (\"What if I had a\ncharacter who couldn't remember more than a day at a time?\"), but it seems\nto me that Wolfe usually DOES something with those sorts of ideas. As he\nsays in one of his essays or interviews about writing, many people think\nthey have a great idea for a story when they come up with an idea for the\npremise of a story or the opening of the story (\"What if a guy couldn't\nremember more than a day at a time?\"). But what is important is knowing the\n*end* of the story and how the story gets to it.\n\nSo if Wolfe came up with this particular idea, it seems consistent to me to\nthink that Wolfe had some idea of where he wanted to go with the idea. It's\nnot just a gimmick to allow, for instance, characters to deceive Latro\nbecause he can't remember that they were untrustworthy. It's going\nsomewhere. The memory loss happened for a reason, and therefore it is\nsomething that is both resolvable and needing resolution.\n\nOr so it seems to me. Now you'll tell me that all that stuff was cleared\nup in Sidon....\n\nJohn\n\n\n------------------------------\nWhat's for dinner tonight? Find quick and easy dinner ideasfor any occasion.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370907201632m530286a2h3a3d113c9f5433aa@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-07-20T23:32:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe at Readercon", "in_reply_to": "<937432300907201624h5b34eb6cibf8db3a60a560cf6@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, Wolfe at one point was talking of having Latro ride a Phoenician boat\nto the Americas. I suppose that's probably out of the question now." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Jul 20, 2009 at 4:24 PM, Milton Jackson wrote:\nI'll tell you no such thing. You'll have to read the book to determine what\nyou think of what Wolfe does with Latro. One thing any Wolfe fan should know\nis that Wolfe rarely gives a traditional resolution to his works. They are\noften openended and incomplete in ways that would damage other authors'\nreputations though. Wolfe is a writer who rewards both perception and\nrepeated delving into his worlds by his readers. If you expect the Latro\nsequence to go from A to Z, then you're reading the wrong books. If you\nexpect a more Citizen Kane-style mode of storytelling filled with lacunae,\nsubtle hints, and endings that leave a sense of wonder rather than\ncompletion, then you're definitely reading the right books. Others may\ndisagree with me, but my perception of Soldier of Sidon is that it\neffectively brings the sequence to the closest thing to closure it needs.\nAnything else, to me--unless superbly done (something Wolfe is quite capable\nof)--would be meaningless windowdressing.\n\nOn Mon, Jul 20, 2009 at 7:10 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Milton writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I think Wolfe's done all he can do with Latro short of killing\n?the character off. Althought Soldier of Sidon can't claim\n?the level of writing its predecessors had, it still was a fine\n?book and, I believe, a great place to end the story." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I haven't read Sidon yet, but ... surely the matter of his memory-problem\nhas yet to be resolved. That is, I assume Wolfe didn't intend it to be just\nsome weird feature that plays no role in the plot but that allows Wolfe to\ndo some fun stuff with the narrative.\n\nOf course, that may have been how the idea originated (\"What if I had a\ncharacter who couldn't remember more than a day at a time?\"), but it seems\nto me that Wolfe usually DOES something with those sorts of ideas. As he\nsays in one of his essays or interviews about writing, many people think\nthey have a great idea for a story when they come up with an idea for the\npremise of a story or the opening of the story (\"What if a guy couldn't\nremember more than a day at a time?\"). But what is important is knowing the\n*end* of the story and how the story gets to it.\n\nSo if Wolfe came up with this particular idea, it seems consistent to me\nto think that Wolfe had some idea of where he wanted to go with the idea.\nIt's not just a gimmick to allow, for instance, characters to deceive Latro\nbecause he can't remember that they were untrustworthy. It's going\nsomewhere. The memory loss happened for a reason, and therefore it is\nsomething that is both resolvable and needing resolution.\n\nOr so it seems to me. Now you'll tell me that all that stuff was cleared\nup in Sidon....\n\nJohn\n\n________________________________\nWhat's for dinner tonight? Find quick and easy dinner ideas for any\noccasion.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-07-21T14:10:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe at Readercon", "in_reply_to": "<937432300907201624h5b34eb6cibf8db3a60a560cf6@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Anything else, to me--unless superbly done (something Wolfe is quite \ncapable of)--\nwould be meaningless windowdressing." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I like Sidon, but I it *does* feel odd that Sidon occurs after Latro has \nalready returned home. The expectation is that the arc of the stories is \nLatro's attempt to \"get back\" and to reveal something of his past. So that \nhe goes to Africa instead of Persia (or at least moves in that direction) \njust feels \"off\".\n\n~ James " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Bryan Alexander", "address": "bryan.alexander at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-07-21T14:32:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe at Readercon", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm just trying to get my head around the amazing co-presence of\nWolfe, Michael Cisco, and John Crowley. Wow." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 7/21/09, James Wynn wrote:\nAnything else, to me--unless superbly done (something Wolfe is quite\ncapable of)--\nwould be meaningless windowdressing." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I like Sidon, but I it *does* feel odd that Sidon occurs after Latro has\nalready returned home. The expectation is that the arc of the stories is\nLatro's attempt to \"get back\" and to reveal something of his past. So that\nhe goes to Africa instead of Persia (or at least moves in that direction)\njust feels \"off\".\n\n~ James\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<44fb53d10907210825n6d50f27bgd25158e5c56a8e10@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-07-21T15:25:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe at Readercon", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 10:32 AM, Bryan\nAlexander wrote:\nI'm just trying to get my head around the amazing co-presence of\nWolfe, Michael Cisco, and John Crowley. ?Wow." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I never did see Cisco (though I bought two of his books on sale, as\nI've heard they're good), but there was a minute or two that I saw\nwhere Gene Wolfe, John Crowley, and Samuel Delany were all in the same\nroom together.\n\n-Matt" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2C6039EAF3814649A6DB724C936B9E18@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-07-21T15:51:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe at Readercon", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So if Wolfe came up with this particular idea, it seems consistent\nto me to think that Wolfe had some idea of where he wanted\nto go with the idea. It's not just a gimmick to allow, for instance,\ncharacters to deceive Latro because he can't remember that they\nwere untrustworthy." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I always thought it was intended as a critique on the integrity of history. \nWolfe did this even more directly in \"Peace\". Also, while Severian *says* he \nhas perfect memory, it begs the question \"How does he know that?\" And in \nfact immediately after he makes this claim the first time, he commits a \nglaring error of fact.\n\nEvery morning Latro reads a diary that others tell him was written by \nhimself. But he can't really *know* that he wrote it or (assuming he did) if \nhe made it up or if he is crazy. He's like us when we read history.\n\nWe assume that history is *real* and myth is not, in part, because history \nis verifiable. However, the facts of Herodotus's history in which Latro's \nstory is set--the first history so called--was challenged only a few decades \nlater by Thucydides. Also it is full of stories of manticores (verified), \nflying snakes, wool growing on trees (verified), and a personal encounter \nwith Pan. We can find evidence that *supports* certain claims of history, \nbut we can't truly verify or discount recorded events and conversations. \nThat ability has been lost to the *mists* of Time.\n\nJ" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8476d0320907210859s44b67338tb35ab990b61cc62c@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Bruce Hayles", "address": "brucehayles at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-07-21T15:59:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe at Readercon", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Doesn't a god force Latro to choose between either finding himself among\nfriends or regaining his memory? I thought his continued wanderings were\nbecause being among friends without memory proved to not be enough." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 10:10 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nAnything else, to me--unless superbly done (something Wolfe is quite\ncapable of)--\nwould be meaningless windowdressing." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I like Sidon, but I it *does* feel odd that Sidon occurs after Latro has\nalready returned home. The expectation is that the arc of the stories is\nLatro's attempt to \"get back\" and to reveal something of his past. So that\nhe goes to Africa instead of Persia (or at least moves in that direction)\njust feels \"off\".\n\n~ James\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4161.72.171.0.148.1248207611.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-07-21T20:20:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe at Readercon", "in_reply_to": "<2C6039EAF3814649A6DB724C936B9E18@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We assume that history is *real* and myth is not, in part, because history\nis verifiable. However, the facts of Herodotus's history in which Latro's\nstory is set--the first history so called--was challenged only a few\ndecades later by Thucydides. Also it is full of stories of manticores\n(verified)," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know what Herodotus was referring to here, but it wasn't nothing." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "flying snakes," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There are flying snakes (or at least gliding snakes)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " wool growing on trees (verified)," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's a variety of Indian cotton." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " and a personal encounter\nwith Pan." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "People have personal encounters with God literally all of the time.\n\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-07-21T20:55:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe at Readercon", "in_reply_to": "<4161.72.171.0.148.1248207611.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Also it is full of stories of manticores (verified)," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't know what Herodotus was referring to here, but it wasn't nothing." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Manticore\" is from the Indian word for tiger. Granted, tigers don't have \nthree rows of teeth or a tail with spikes, but Pausanias (2nd century) \nrecognized it as the tiger with fanciful flourishes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "flying snakes," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There are flying snakes (or at least gliding snakes)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, but Herodotus describes a whole Egyptian ecology involving birds etc." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "wool growing on trees (verified)," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's a variety of Indian cotton." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "and a personal encounter with Pan." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "People have personal encounters with God literally all of the time." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, but only Abraham claimed to have met him in the mundane way (on the \nroad to Athens) that Herodotus relates. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4A67B477.6020406@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-07-23T00:53:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe at Readercon", "in_reply_to": "<2C6039EAF3814649A6DB724C936B9E18@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nAlso, while \nSeverian *says* he has perfect memory, it begs the question \"How does he \nknow that?\" " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "BTQ abuse makes the Baby Theoanthropos cry.\n\nhttp://begthequestion.info/\n\nYou can make a difference." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0907221811x9d664f8h8e315ed6e54621a8@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-07-23T01:11:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe at Readercon", "in_reply_to": "<4A67B477.6020406@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A rare lapse from the erudite Mr. Wynn." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 8:53 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nJames Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Also, while Severian *says* he has perfect memory, it begs the question\n\"How does he know that?\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "BTQ abuse makes the Baby Theoanthropos cry.\n\nhttp://begthequestion.info/\n\nYou can make a difference.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<44fb53d10907221829g7266edb0sfa8060e4c6583c2d@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-07-23T01:29:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe at Readercon", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0907221811x9d664f8h8e315ed6e54621a8@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And yet the colloquial usage of \"begs the question\" does make sense;\nit's a nice and colorful shorthand. Less irritating than trying to\nfigure out the definition of \"nonplussed.\"\n\nhttp://podictionary.com/?p=653\n\n-Matt" } ] }, { "message_id": "<200907222137.10973.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "from": { "name": "Daniel D Jones", "address": "ddjones at riddlemaster.org" }, "date": "2009-07-23T01:37:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe at Readercon", "in_reply_to": "<44fb53d10907221829g7266edb0sfa8060e4c6583c2d@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wednesday 22 July 2009 21:29:14 Matthew Keeley wrote:\nAnd yet the colloquial usage of \"begs the question\" does make sense;\nit's a nice and colorful shorthand. Less irritating than trying to\nfigure out the definition of \"nonplussed.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Then say \"...begs one to ask the question..\" or \"...begs that the question be \nasked...\" If you find those a bit cumbersome, \"raises the question\" is just as \nclear and succinct as the misused phrase." } ] }, { "message_id": "<05345EED82A744A8A4386A16532A453D@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-07-23T14:32:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) torturing BTQ", "in_reply_to": "<4A67B477.6020406@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Also, while Severian *says* he has perfect memory, it begs the question \n\"How does he know that?\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "BTQ abuse makes the Baby Theoanthropos cry.\nhttp://begthequestion.info/\nYou can make a difference." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks for not reporting my BTQ abuse to Logic Protective Services. ;-)\n\nStill, while I can see how the term \"begs the question\" might be misused \n(\"Which begs the question, who made James a logician?\") , it has never been \nclear to me why \"begs the question\" is bad form to introduce a question that \n*properly* illustrates an unsupported premise in a statement.\n\nFor example, I could have said: \"This is begging the question. How does he \nknow that?\" That would have protected me from allegations of BTQA, but the \ntwo phrases convey the same meaning and the modified form does not distort \nthe etymological intent of the term (as I understand it). Granted, the \nmodified form is not \"easier\", but I think reflexive outrage at the mere use \nof the term \"begs the question\" is oversensitivity on the part of some \nlogicians...which is reason enough to use it.\n\n\"[Irony is] like rain on a wedding day\" is not true. The statement is an \noutrage to \"irony\". But the problem is not the syntactical form.\n\nJames " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-07-23T15:18:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) torturing BTQ", "in_reply_to": "<05345EED82A744A8A4386A16532A453D@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 23, 2009, at 9:32 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nFor example, I could have said: \"This is begging the question. How \ndoes he know that?\" That would have protected me from allegations of \nBTQA, but the two phrases convey the same meaning and the modified \nform does not distort the etymological intent of the term (as I \nunderstand it). Granted, the modified form is not \"easier\", but I \nthink reflexive outrage at the mere use of the term \"begs the \nquestion\" is oversensitivity on the part of some logicians...which \nis reason enough to use it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Outraging logicians has never been a particularly good motivator for \nme. I must be doing it wrong.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2A785931-5178-4694-91F1-3D6708C13091@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-07-23T15:30:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) torturing BTQ", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Outraging logicians is never a good idea. We come armed with syllogisms.\n\nSent from my iPhone" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 23, 2009, at 10:18 AM, Adam Thornton wrote:\n\nOn Jul 23, 2009, at 9:32 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "For example, I could have said: \"This is begging the question. How \ndoes he know that?\" That would have protected me from allegations \nof BTQA, but the two phrases convey the same meaning and the \nmodified form does not distort the etymological intent of the term \n(as I understand it). Granted, the modified form is not \"easier\", \nbut I think reflexive outrage at the mere use of the term \"begs the \nquestion\" is oversensitivity on the part of some logicians...which \nis reason enough to use it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Outraging logicians has never been a particularly good motivator for \nme. I must be doing it wrong.\n\nAdam\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-07-23T15:31:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) torturing BTQ", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Granted, the modified form is not \"easier\", but I think reflexive outrage \nat the mere use of the term \"begs the question\" is oversensitivity on the \npart of some logicians...which is reason enough to use it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Outraging logicians has never been a particularly good motivator for me. \nI must be doing it wrong." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You must be, Adam.\n\nLogicians are not Vulcans, they only enjoy pretending to be ones. They have \npetty pet peeves just like the rest of humanity. In some cases, those who \nassume the title \"logician\" are not at all removed from those taking part in \nthe annual \"Klingon Beauty Contest\" in Atlanta. When meeting a person who is \nshowing off his invulnerable armor, how can one resist poking an uncovered \nsore? " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4A688679.7090808@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-07-23T15:49:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) torturing BTQ", "in_reply_to": "<05345EED82A744A8A4386A16532A453D@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nAlso, while Severian *says* he has perfect memory, it begs the \nquestion \"How does he know that?\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "BTQ abuse makes the Baby Theoanthropos cry.\nhttp://begthequestion.info/\nYou can make a difference." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thanks for not reporting my BTQ abuse to Logic Protective Services. ;-)\n\nStill, while I can see how the term \"begs the question\" might be misused \n(\"Which begs the question, who made James a logician?\") , it has never \nbeen clear to me why \"begs the question\" is bad form to introduce a \nquestion that *properly* illustrates an unsupported premise in a statement." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Because it was coined to refer not to a premise but a conclusion \nsupported in a specific, fallacious way, that of circular reasoning. \nSev's claim is supported in a different fallacious way, involving \nconfirmation bias." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7D352B4E9FD54C8182ADC5771512E82E@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-07-23T17:12:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) torturing BTQ", "in_reply_to": "<4A688679.7090808@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Also, while Severian *says* he has perfect memory, it begs the question \n\"How does he know that?\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "BTQ abuse makes the Baby Theoanthropos cry.\nhttp://begthequestion.info/\nYou can make a difference." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Thanks for not reporting my BTQ abuse to Logic Protective Services. ;-)\n\nStill, while I can see how the term \"begs the question\" might be misused \n(\"Which begs the question, who made James a logician?\") , it has never \nbeen clear to me why \"begs the question\" is bad form to introduce a \nquestion that *properly* illustrates an unsupported premise in a \nstatement." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Because it was coined to refer not to a premise but a conclusion supported \nin a specific, fallacious way, that of circular reasoning. Sev's claim is \nsupported in a different fallacious way, involving confirmation bias." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay. Attempting to put it another way, you are saying that the question \nSeverian is begging is \"Is it possible for one to know for certain if one \nhas forgotten or misremembered something?\", not \"How does Severian know he \nremembers everything?\"\n\nWell, okay, the first question is better *phrased* logically. However, the \nanswers to both are congruent (\"It is not possible\" and \"Severian cannot\"). \nIMO the latter is perfectly suitable unless I'm constructing a logical \nequation, and it is *superior* rhetorically in that it is more directly to \nthe point. I'm categorizing this so-called error with the Split Infinitive \nrule (http://www.newdream.net/~scully/toelw/Lowth.htm).\n\nI agree it is dangerous to handle BTQ in this way unless you know what you \nare doing; but, I didn't use the term to say \"His claim brings to mind such \nand such speculation\". I used the term to say \"Severian's statement is based \non a specific unsupported premise undermined by an obvious Socratic \nproposition which I shall hereby phrase in a way that is applicable to our \ncurrent discussion.\" Sans evidence that my usage is misleading, I intend to \nbe incorrigible about this.\n\nIrrelevant aside: I don't remember learning Confirmation Bias as one of the \nlogical fallacies. After looking up a couple of websites I see that it is \ndefined as a \"fallacy of evidence\". If that's the case, it can *lead* \ndirectly to Circular Reasoning (among, I presume, other logical fallacies \nalthough I can't think of any at the moment).\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<458020.50246.qm@web50709.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-07-23T20:10:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) torturing BTQ", "in_reply_to": "<7D352B4E9FD54C8182ADC5771512E82E@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- On Thu, 7/23/09, James Wynn wrote:\n\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm categorizing this so-called\nerror with the Split Infinitive rule\n(http://www.newdream.net/~scully/toelw/Lowth.htm)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\n\nSpeaking of pet peeves, that article hit one of mine.\nLowth's grammar book never mentions split infinitives.\nYes, I read the whole book looking for that. Everything\nI know about split infinitives (and some things other\npeople know) is at\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split_infinitive\n\nOn the subject of ending sentences with prepositions, I\nquoted at\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Lowth\n\nwhat Lowth actually said, which isn't exactly what Scott E.\nKapel's article (linked to above) might lead you to think.\n(If you can read the gray on black.)\n\nI'd say BTQ is what Bryan Garner calls \"skunked\".\nWhichever sense you use it in, people will misunderstand\nor criticize you. When it's used to mean a logical\nfallacy, I don't remember seeing it with the question in\napposition.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<200907231850.31138.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "from": { "name": "Daniel D Jones", "address": "ddjones at riddlemaster.org" }, "date": "2009-07-23T22:50:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) torturing BTQ", "in_reply_to": "<05345EED82A744A8A4386A16532A453D@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Thursday 23 July 2009 10:32:38 James Wynn wrote:\nAlso, while Severian *says* he has perfect memory, it begs the question\n\"How does he know that?\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "BTQ abuse makes the Baby Theoanthropos cry.\nhttp://begthequestion.info/\nYou can make a difference." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thanks for not reporting my BTQ abuse to Logic Protective Services. ;-)\n\nStill, while I can see how the term \"begs the question\" might be misused\n(\"Which begs the question, who made James a logician?\") , it has never been\nclear to me why \"begs the question\" is bad form to introduce a question\nthat *properly* illustrates an unsupported premise in a statement." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's bad form to use the phrase incorrectly, regardless of whether or not it's \nin relation to a fallacy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "For example, I could have said: \"This is begging the question. How does he\nknow that?\" That would have protected me from allegations of BTQA, but the\ntwo phrases convey the same meaning and the modified form does not distort\nthe etymological intent of the term (as I understand it). Granted, the\nmodified form is not \"easier\", but I think reflexive outrage at the mere\nuse of the term \"begs the question\" is oversensitivity on the part of some\nlogicians...which is reason enough to use it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I disagree that the two forms convey the same meaning. You stated that \"it,\" \nnot \"he,\" begs the question and then stated the question that \"it\" was \n\"begging.\" I think the vast majority of readers would interpret that to mean \nthat Severain's claim (the \"it\" in the statement) raises the question you \nexplicitly stated: How does he know that his memory is perfect? I think few \nreaders, even those who are quite familiar with the correct definition, would \ninterpret it to mean that Severian has committed a logical fallacy. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"[Irony is] like rain on a wedding day\" is not true. The statement is an\noutrage to \"irony\". But the problem is not the syntactical form." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If you truly meant to say that Severian committed the logical fallacy of \nbegging the question, then you phrased it in such a manner that almost \neveryone who read your statement would misinterpret it." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4A692756.5030603@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-07-24T03:15:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) torturing BTQ", "in_reply_to": "<7D352B4E9FD54C8182ADC5771512E82E@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nOkay. Attempting to put it another way, you are saying that the \nquestion Severian is begging is \"Is it possible for one to know for \ncertain if one has forgotten or misremembered something?\", not \"How does \nSeverian know he remembers everything?\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oy!\n\nThere's no begging of either question that I can see. Severian feels his \nmemory is perfect because he can find no gaps in it *and* apparently \nneither can Palaemon. Until his attention is drawn to an inconsistency, \nany forgetting was both holistic, as if the object of the memory never \nexisted at all, and trivial, regarding matters that no one else cared \nabout or remembered and did not involve objective, physical consequences \nlike being unable to open a door because of forgetting where the keys \nwere left.\n\nAnd there may be things excusable as being different in the not-English \nidiom the Urthlings use, similar to the way our \"I forgot my keys\" can \nreally mean forgetting, or it can mean \"I was distracted from my \nresponsibilities and no attempt at recall was made\"." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<850D4F673A6D4803A54611A2BC36546F@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-07-24T12:55:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's memory", "in_reply_to": "<4A692756.5030603@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Severian feels his memory is perfect because he can find no gaps in it \n*and* apparently neither can Palaemon." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But having gaps in your memory is not the only way you can \"forget\". \nSeverian's tale exemplifies this at the tippy-top of page 2 of The Shadow of \nthe Torturer:\n\n\"I would have hidden, but __Roche__ held me, saying, 'Wait, I see pikes.' \"\n[snip][short exposition about how Severian never forgets anything because it \nis \"recreated\" each day][snip]\n\"...they had pikes, as __Drotte__ had said.\"\n\nYou can say this is a trivial detail, and it is. But it is also quite \nglaring and occurs in the first 10 inches of text, closely embedded around \nhis first and one of his more elaborate claims of perfect memory. The intent \nseems to be to make a mockery of Severian's claim. You detail the conditions \nof all of Severian's forgetting episodes, but everything we know about the \nevents surrounding Severian's life comes solely from himself. Yes this \ncarries the Unreliable Narrator to an absurd level. That seems to have been \nWolfe's point.\n\nJ " } ] }, { "message_id": "<78715.27288.qm@web37604.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-07-24T13:42:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's memory", "in_reply_to": "<850D4F673A6D4803A54611A2BC36546F@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I also find it strange that he loses his way in the Corridors of Time. It happens so early that it seems like another flag that even his memory of immediate events is far from perfect.\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: James Wynn \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Friday, July 24, 2009 7:55:35 AM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Severian's memory\nSeverian feels his memory is perfect because he can find no gaps in it *and* apparently neither can Palaemon." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But having gaps in your memory is not the only way you can \"forget\". Severian's tale exemplifies this at the tippy-top of page 2 of The Shadow of the Torturer:\n\n\"I would have hidden, but __Roche__ held me, saying, 'Wait, I see pikes.' \"\n[snip][short exposition about how Severian never forgets anything because it is \"recreated\" each day][snip]\n\"...they had pikes, as __Drotte__ had said.\"\n\nYou can say this is a trivial detail, and it is. But it is also quite glaring and occurs in the first 10 inches of text, closely embedded around his first and one of his more elaborate claims of perfect memory. The intent seems to be to make a mockery of Severian's claim. You detail the conditions of all of Severian's forgetting episodes, but everything we know about the events surrounding Severian's life comes solely from himself. Yes this carries the Unreliable Narrator to an absurd level. That seems to have been Wolfe's point.\n\nJ " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4A6A577A.2030305@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-07-25T00:53:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's memory", "in_reply_to": "<850D4F673A6D4803A54611A2BC36546F@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nSeverian feels his memory is perfect because he can find no gaps in it \n*and* apparently neither can Palaemon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But having gaps in your memory is not the only way you can \"forget\". \nSeverian's tale exemplifies this at the tippy-top of page 2 of The \nShadow of the Torturer:\n\n\"I would have hidden, but __Roche__ held me, saying, 'Wait, I see pikes.' \"\n[snip][short exposition about how Severian never forgets anything \nbecause it is \"recreated\" each day][snip]\n\"...they had pikes, as __Drotte__ had said.\"\n\nYou can say this is a trivial detail, and it is. But it is also quite \nglaring and occurs in the first 10 inches of text, closely embedded \naround his first and one of his more elaborate claims of perfect memory. \nThe intent seems to be to make a mockery of Severian's claim. You detail \nthe conditions of all of Severian's forgetting episodes, but everything \nwe know about the events surrounding Severian's life comes solely from \nhimself. Yes this carries the Unreliable Narrator to an absurd level. \nThat seems to have been Wolfe's point." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Roche-Eata mismatch is flaw in his memory, but not a grossly \nobvious one. The narrator seeks to recall the incident and does so, but \nthe effort produces a false positive that is duly recorded. This isn't a \nlogical flaw, but one of woefully subjective methodology.\n\nSeverian-the-narrator also tends to immerse himself in his past persona \nas he writes, and at this point Severian-the-protagonist may never have \nhad to confront the flaws in his memory, leading Sev-the-narrator to \nwrite the nonsense about his memory losing nothing in the end, similar \nto the way he shifts from Sev to Thecla in the middle of a childhood \nreminisce later on.\n\nThere is also confirmation bias in that the admittedly few occasions \nwhen his memory lacks fidelity don't stand out as much as his more \nfrequent impressive and successful feats of memory, similar to the way a \npsychic prediction that comes true is more memorable to some than the \npiles of failed ones." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4A6A5A45.6050203@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-07-25T01:05:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's memory", "in_reply_to": "<78715.27288.qm@web37604.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Craig Brewer wrote:\nI also find it strange that he loses his way in the Corridors of\nTime. It happens so early that it seems like another flag that even\nhis memory of immediate events is far from perfect." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd have to give him the benefit of the doubt there, as the corridors \nextend back through time and dimension, so that three lefts may not make \n a right.\n\nSeverian further admits he doesn't remember what he does not perceive on \nthe first page of chapter 27 in SWORD. \"[...]I have forgotten much of \nthat, because I was so exhausted that I moved as though in sleep.\" In \nhis first encounter with higher dimensions, he may not have sen \neverything about his surrounding, he may not have been able to correctly \ninterpret his propriceptor sense as put on foot in direction gamma from \nthe other, and it may have even made him a bit ill and internally \ndistracted." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2DB5C82C192643019CCF70BAE797B25E@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-07-26T02:09:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's memory", "in_reply_to": "<4A6A577A.2030305@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The narrator seeks to recall the incident and does so, but the effort \nproduces a false positive that is duly recorded. This isn't a logical flaw, \nbut one of woefully subjective methodology." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The logical flaw is his argument \"I do not forget.\" which is based \n(presumably) on a specific unsupported premise: \"I would know if I had \nforgotten something.\" This is the logical flaw defined as Begging The \nQuestion.\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0907260549h4caa4b01o931272f827803ba@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-07-26T12:49:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's memory", "in_reply_to": "<2DB5C82C192643019CCF70BAE797B25E@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, it's definitely an unstated and unsupported premise. I'm not sure\nthat it counts as question-begging. Many people do know that they forget\nthings." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 10:09 PM, James Wynn wrote:\n The narrator seeks to recall the incident and does so, but the effort\nproduces a false positive that is duly recorded. This isn't a logical flaw,\nbut one of woefully subjective methodology." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The logical flaw is his argument \"I do not forget.\" which is based\n(presumably) on a specific unsupported premise: \"I would know if I had\nforgotten something.\" This is the logical flaw defined as Begging The\nQuestion.\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4A6CB83C.8000401@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-07-26T20:10:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's memory", "in_reply_to": "<2DB5C82C192643019CCF70BAE797B25E@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nThe narrator seeks to recall the incident and does so, but the effort \nproduces a false positive that is duly recorded. This isn't a logical \nflaw, but one of woefully subjective methodology." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The logical flaw is his argument \"I do not forget.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is a single proposition. A logical argument has the form of two or \nmore propositions." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4A70002C.4090602@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-07-29T07:54:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's memory", "in_reply_to": "<2DB5C82C192643019CCF70BAE797B25E@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nThe narrator seeks to recall the incident and does so, but the effort \nproduces a false positive that is duly recorded. This isn't a logical \nflaw, but one of woefully subjective methodology." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The logical flaw is his argument \"I do not forget.\" which is based \n(presumably) on a specific unsupported premise: \"I would know if I had \nforgotten something.\" This is the logical flaw defined as Begging The \nQuestion." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Can you point to where he actually says something like this, please?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-07-29T15:43:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's memory", "in_reply_to": "<4A70002C.4090602@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The narrator seeks to recall the incident and does so, but the effort \nproduces a false positive that is duly recorded. This isn't a logical \nflaw, but one of woefully subjective methodology." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The logical flaw is his argument \"I do not forget.\" which is based \n(presumably) on a specific unsupported premise: \"I would know if I had \nforgotten something.\" This is the logical flaw defined as Begging The \nQuestion." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Can you point to where he actually says something like this, please?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You mean where Severian says he doesn't forget anything? I'm not trying to \nbe dense. I just want verification before I proceed. Surely that is the most \nuniversally recognized opinion that Severian has about himself.\n\nJ " } ] }, { "message_id": "<20090729164309.YGEW27176.eastrmmtao103.cox.net@eastrmimpo01.cox.net>", "from": { "name": "James B. Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2009-07-29T16:43:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) torturing BTQ", "in_reply_to": "<458020.50246.qm@web50709.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 03:10 PM 7/23/2009, you wrote:\nSpeaking of pet peeves, that article hit one of mine.\nLowth's grammar book never mentions split infinitives.\nYes, I read the whole book looking for that. Everything\nI know about split infinitives (and some things other\npeople know) is at\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split_infinitive" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was taught that the rule against split infinitives comes from the \noppression of Latin grammar imposed on English. Latin infinitives are \none word; hence English infinitives must be treated as one word.\n\nJBJordan\n\n\nJames B. Jordan\nDirector, Biblical Horizons\nBox 1096\nNiceville, FL 32588\nhttp://www.biblicalhorizons.com " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-07-29T16:57:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's memory", "in_reply_to": "<4A70002C.4090602@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 3:54 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nJames Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The narrator seeks to recall the incident and does so, but the effort\nproduces a false positive that is duly recorded. This isn't a logical flaw,\nbut one of woefully subjective methodology." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The logical flaw is his argument \"I do not forget.\" which is based\n(presumably) on a specific unsupported premise: \"I would know if I had\nforgotten something.\" This is the logical flaw defined as Begging The\nQuestion." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Can you point to where he actually says something like this, please?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Severian says often that he never forgets, although he eventually\nmodifies this to he usually doesn't forget and implies he knows those\nperiods of forgetting:\n\n\"It is my nature, my joy and my curse, to forget nothing. Every rattling chain\nand whistling wind, every sight, smell, and taste, remains changeless in my\nmind, and though I know it is not so with everyone, I cannot imagine what it can\nmean to be otherwise, as if one had slept when in fact an experience is merely\nremote.\"\n\n\"How I reached my bed I have no notion. Those who drink much have told me that\nthey sometimes forget all that befell them in the latter part of the night, and\nperhaps it was so with me. But I think it more likely that I (who never forget\nanything, who, if I may for once confess the truth, though I seem to boast, do\nnot truly understand what others mean when they say forget, for it seems to me\nthat all experience becomes a part of my being) only slept and was carried\nthere.\"\n\n\"\"I never forget a voice,\" I told him, \"or anything else.\" And then in my\neagerness, I impulsively added what was perhaps the worst thing I could have\nsaid: \"You tried to brain me with your shovel.\" His face became masklike at\nonce, and he stepped back into his boat and rowed out onto the brown water.\"\n\n\" \"Liege,\" I said, \"my head is swimming.\" (Then, lying,) \"I cannot\nremember those words truly, I\nhave forgotten them already. Did I hear you say that Dorcas and the\nothers will be in the House\nAbsolute?\"\"\n\n\"THE FLOATING BOAT would not obey me, for I had not the word\nfor it. (I have often thought that its word may have been among the\nthings Piaton had tried to tell me, as he had told me to take his life;\nand I wish I had come to heed him sooner.) In the end, I was forced\nto climb from the right eye? the worst climb of my life. In this\noverlong account of my adventures, I have said often that I forget\nnothing; but I have forgotten much of that, because I was so\nexhausted that I moved as though in sleep. When I staggered at last\ninto the silent, sealed town that stood among the feet of the\ncataracts, it must have been nearly night, and I lay down beside a\nwall that gave me shelter from the wind.\"\n\n\"At one moment they were nearly invisible; at the next they were\nupon me like a torrent. I cannot say who the riders were or on what\nbeasts they rode; not because I have forgotten (for I forget nothing)\nbut because I saw nothing clearly. There was no question of\nfighting, only of seeking in some way to live. I parried a blow from\na twisted weapon that was neither sword nor ax; the piebald reared,\nand I saw an arrow protruding from his chest like a horn of fire. A\nrider crashed against us, and we fell into the dark.\"\n\n'\"I have forgotten! Do you remember when we flew over the armies?\nFor a time I forgot it! I know now what it is to forget.\"\nThere was pale laughter in his voice. \"Which you will now\nremember always.\"\n\"I hope so, but it fades even as we speak. It vanishes like mist,\nwhich must itself be a forgetting. What was that weapon that\nbrought us down?\"'\n\n'Triskele laid his scarred head against my knee, the ambassador of\nall crippled things, of the Autarch who had carried a tray in the\nHouse Absolute and lain paralyzed in the palanquin waiting to pass\nto me the humming voices in his skull, of Thecla writhing under the\nRevolutionary, and of the woman even I, who had boasted I could\nforget nothing, had nearly forgotten, bleeding and dying beneath our\ntower. Perhaps after all it was my discovery of Triskele, which I\nhave said changed nothing, that in the end changed everything. I did\nnot have to answer this time; Master Malrubius saw my answer in\nmy face.'\n\n\"There will be long, slow days on the ship. I will read. I still have so\nmuch to learn. I will sleep, dozing in my berth, listening to the\ncenturies wash against the hull. This manuscript I shall send to\nMaster Ultan; but while I am on the ship, when I cannot sleep and\nhave tired of reading, I shall write it out again?I who forget nothing\n?every word, just as I have written it here.\"\n\n\"\nOne of the advantages of such a memory as mine, which stores everything and\nforgets nothing, is that it is as good as paper at such times. (Indeed, that may\nbe its only advantage.) On this occasion, however, it did me no more good than\nit had when I had tried to follow the directions of that lochage of the peltasts\nwhom I met upon the bridge of Gyoll. No doubt Idas had assumed I knew\nmore of the ship than I did, and that I would not count doors and look for\nturnings with\nexactness.\"\n\n\" These Hierogrammates who ruled the\nuniverse and what lay beyond had not merely mistaken another for me, but\nnow sought to remind me, who could forget nothing, of the scenes of my life;\nand did so (so it seemed to me) less skillfully than my own memories could\nhave.\"\n\n\"\"You have undergone trials,\" she said. \"If you wish, I can give you that which\nwill make you forget them all. Though only by instinct, you will still bring a\nyoung sun to your world.\"\nI shook my head. \"I don't want to forget, Tzadkiel. I've boasted too often that\nI forget nothing, and forgetting which I have known once or twice seems to\nme a kind of death.\"\"\n\n\"Burgundofara went to look at the cabin while I sat trying\nto wipe the image of Zama's face from my eyes and watching the crew make\nready to cast off. One of the sun-browned rivermen seemed familiar; but I,\nwho can forget nothing, sometimes have difficulty in bringing the quarry to\nbay in a memory that grows ever more vast.\"\n\n\"\"Our rescuer,\" Odilo continued, beaming, \"is?\"\n\"Don't matter,\" the sailor snapped. \"You get down there and trim that\nmains'l. Jib's fouled, too. You stamp now and stutter, or she'll capsize.\"\nIt had been ten years and more since I had sailed on the Samru, but I had\nlearned then how a fore-and-aft rig operates, and I do not forget.\"\n\n\"The continents themselves are old as raddled women, long since stripped of\nbeauty and fertility. The New Sun comes, and he will send them crashing into the\nsea like foundered ships. And from the sea lift new glittering with\ngold, silver,\niron, and copper. With diamonds, rubies, turquoises, lands wallowing in the soil\nof a million millennia, so long ago washed down to the sea.\nI, who boast of forgetting nothing, had forgotten that it was the demons who\nhad spoken\n so.\"" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern" } ] }, { "message_id": "<982161.87253.qm@web50711.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-07-29T17:22:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: split infinitive [was Re: torturing BTQ]", "in_reply_to": "<20090729164309.YGEW27176.eastrmmtao103.cox.net@eastrmimpo01.cox.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Wed, 7/29/09, James B. Jordan wrote:\nAt 03:10 PM 7/23/2009, you wrote:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Everything\nI know about split infinitives (and some things other\npeople know) is at\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split_infinitive" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I was taught that the rule against split infinitives comes\nfrom the\noppression of Latin grammar imposed on English. Latin\ninfinitives are one\nword; hence English infinitives must be treated as one\nword." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You put that clearly. However, though many people\nhave been taught that (including me), I'd like to see\nsome evidence for it. When the rule against split\ninfinitives was first stated, in the 19th century, did\nanyone actually justify the rule with Latin grammar? Is\nthere any reason to think that was anyone's\njustification?\n\nI'd be interested in any citation earlier than the one\nin the Wikipedia article (John Opdycke, 1941). I'm not\nlooking for people claiming without evidence, \"The split\ninfinitive was banned because of an analogy with Latin\"--\nwe have plenty of those.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-07-29T18:56:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: split infinitive", "in_reply_to": "<20090729164309.YGEW27176.eastrmmtao103.cox.net@eastrmimpo01.cox.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Speaking of pet peeves, that article hit one of mine.\nLowth's grammar book never mentions split infinitives.\nYes, I read the whole book looking for that. Everything\nI know about split infinitives (and some things other\npeople know) is at\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split_infinitive" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I was taught that the rule against split infinitives comes from the\noppression of Latin grammar imposed on English." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": ".Latin infinitives are one word; hence English infinitives\nmust be treated as one word." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'd be interested in any citation earlier than the one\nin the Wikipedia article (John Opdycke, 1941)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sorry for maligning Lowth without checking whether it was so. Based on the \nother works cited in the wiki article, it appears that some 19th cen. \nstylists believed that it was merely the most common accepted usage and the \narguments against splitting infinitives were generally arguments against \nsupposed modernism (Realist literature and the like). It is interesting to \nme, the number of cited 19th cen authorities who argued for this rule \nwithout offering any objective reason at all. So Opdycke is to be commended \nat least for that.\n\nI wonder whether Opdycke was not on to something though. I can't think of an \ninstance where the infinitive is split in the King James Bible. If one is \nreading a lot of literature closely translated from Latin or Romance \nlanguages, rather than vernacular literature, you might not run into many \nsplit infinitives. Think of the wordy feel of the personal letters of \n18th-19th centuries. There seems to have been little drive toward the \nordinary concisiveness of casual speech (which infinitive splitting affords) \nuntil you get to writers like Mark Twain who adopted a folksy tone (\"I get \npaid as much for using the word 'city' as I do 'metropolis'\"). Isn't it \npossible that split the infinitive rule was derived from writing patterns \ninfluenced by English works translated from other languages? So, indirectly, \nOpdycke might have put his finger on the root of the rule.\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<937432300907291629m4c3b3458p525a654f4b4a502c@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Milton Jackson", "address": "miltonwjackson at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-07-29T23:29:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: split infinitive [was Re: torturing BTQ]", "in_reply_to": "<982161.87253.qm@web50711.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "When I took grammar in high school, my English teacher told me the reason\ncompound verbs and infinitives shouldn't be split was that large numbers of\nwords between the component parts of the phrase broke the flow of the\nsentence. How true that is I don't know, but that's what I was taught." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 1:22 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\n--- On Wed, 7/29/09, James B. Jordan wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "At 03:10 PM 7/23/2009, you wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Everything\nI know about split infinitives (and some things other\npeople know) is at\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split_infinitive" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I was taught that the rule against split infinitives comes\nfrom the\noppression of Latin grammar imposed on English. Latin\ninfinitives are one\nword; hence English infinitives must be treated as one\nword." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You put that clearly. However, though many people\nhave been taught that (including me), I'd like to see\nsome evidence for it. When the rule against split\ninfinitives was first stated, in the 19th century, did\nanyone actually justify the rule with Latin grammar? Is\nthere any reason to think that was anyone's\njustification?\n\nI'd be interested in any citation earlier than the one\nin the Wikipedia article (John Opdycke, 1941). I'm not\nlooking for people claiming without evidence, \"The split\ninfinitive was banned because of an analogy with Latin\"--\nwe have plenty of those.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<109629.14005.qm@web50709.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-07-31T00:20:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: split infinitive", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- On Wed, 7/29/09, James Wynn wrote:\nJerry: > >>> Speaking of pet peeves," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "that article hit one of mine." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Lowth's grammar book never mentions split\ninfinitives.\nYes, I read the whole book looking for\nthat. Everything\nI know about split infinitives (and some\nthings other\npeople know) is at\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split_infinitive" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I was taught that the rule against split\ninfinitives comes from the\noppression of Latin grammar imposed on English." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": ".Latin infinitives are one word; hence English\ninfinitives\nmust be treated as one word." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'd be interested in any citation earlier than the\none\nin the Wikipedia article (John Opdycke, 1941)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sorry for maligning Lowth without checking whether it was\nso." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You didn't malign him--that article did." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Based on the other works cited in the wiki article, it\nappears that some 19th cen. stylists believed that it was\nmerely the most common accepted usage and the arguments\nagainst splitting infinitives were generally arguments\nagainst supposed modernism (Realist literature and the\nlike)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I missed the modernism part." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is interesting to me, the number of cited 19th cen\nauthorities who argued for this rule without offering any\nobjective reason at all. So Opdycke is to be commended at\nleast for that." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know--is an objective reason that makes no sense\nbetter than no objective reason?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I wonder whether Opdycke was not on to something though. I\ncan't think of an instance where the infinitive is split in\nthe King James Bible." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You have a good memory. According to /American Heritage\nBook of English Usage (quoted at the Wikip article), the\nKJV has no split infinitives." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If one is reading a lot of literature\nclosely translated from Latin or Romance languages, rather\nthan vernacular literature, you might not run into many\nsplit infinitives." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interesting point." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Think of the wordy feel of the personal\nletters of 18th-19th centuries. There seems to have been\nlittle drive toward the ordinary concisiveness of casual\nspeech (which infinitive splitting affords) until you get to\nwriters like Mark Twain who adopted a folksy tone (\"I get\npaid as much for using the word 'city' as I do\n'metropolis'\"). Isn't it possible that split the infinitive\nrule was derived from writing patterns influenced by English\nworks translated from other languages? So, indirectly,\nOpdycke might have put his finger on the root of the rule." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure, it's possible, and many experts have said so. But I'd\nlike to see some evidence.\n\nTo wrench this back on topic, does Mr. Wolfe ever split\ninfinitives? Do his characters? After all the work I've\ndone on the Wikipedia article, you'd think I'd have noticed,\nbut I haven't.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<45406.30466.qm@web50705.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-07-31T00:24:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: split infinitive [was Re: torturing BTQ]", "in_reply_to": "<937432300907291629m4c3b3458p525a654f4b4a502c@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interesting. I agree that you usually shouldn't put a lot\nof words between an auxiliary verb and a main verb, or\nbetween \"to\" and an infinitive. (By the way, I'm told\nthat Head-driven Phrase Structure Grammar treats this \"to\"\nas an auxiliary verb!) But English speakers *have always\nsplit* compound verbs with single words, and we still *do\nnot avoid* it. So this doesn't strike me as an argument\nagainst splitting infinitives with single words.\n\nJerry Friedman" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Wed, 7/29/09, Milton Jackson wrote:\nWhen I took grammar in high school, my\nEnglish teacher told me the reason compound verbs and\ninfinitives shouldn't be split was that large numbers of\nwords between the component parts of the phrase broke the\nflow of the sentence. How true that is I don't know, but\nthat's what I was taught.\n\n\n\nOn Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 1:22 PM,\nJerry Friedman \nwrote:\n\n--- On\nWed, 7/29/09, James B. Jordan \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "At 03:10 PM 7/23/2009, you wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Everything\nI know about split infinitives (and some things\nother\npeople know) is at\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split_infinitive" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I was taught that the rule against split infinitives\ncomes\nfrom the\noppression of Latin grammar imposed on English. Latin\ninfinitives are one\nword; hence English infinitives must be treated as\none" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "word." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You put that clearly. “However, though many people\nhave been taught that (including me), I'd like to see\nsome evidence for it. ?When the rule against split\ninfinitives was first stated, in the 19th century, did\n\nanyone actually justify the rule with Latin grammar” “Is\nthere any reason to think that was anyone's\njustification”\n\nI'd be interested in any citation earlier than the one\nin the Wikipedia article (John Opdycke, 1941). ?I'm\nnot\n\nlooking for people claiming without evidence, \"The\nsplit\ninfinitive was banned because of an analogy with\nLatin\"--\nwe have plenty of those.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<53392.1249002079@speakeasy.net>", "from": { "name": "Allan Anderson", "address": "rubel at goosemoon.org" }, "date": "2009-07-31T01:01:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: split infinitive [was Re: torturing BTQ]", "in_reply_to": "<45406.30466.qm@web50705.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think the functional questions are 1) does using a split infinitive allow more\nrhetorical oomph, and if so, 2) will the elegance and flash it affords\nsufficiently dazzle all but the most hardened grammarians?\n\nor,\n\nWill the reader be distracted from your point by the nagging worry that you've\nviolated some possibly valid rule?\n\nOn Thu Jul 30 17:24 , Jerry Friedman sent:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Interesting. I agree that you usually shouldn't put a lot\nof words between an auxiliary verb and a main verb, or\nbetween \"to\" and an infinitive. (By the way, I'm told\nthat Head-driven Phrase Structure Grammar treats this \"to\"\nas an auxiliary verb!) But English speakers *have always\nsplit* compound verbs with single words, and we still *do\nnot avoid* it. So this doesn't strike me as an argument\nagainst splitting infinitives with single words.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n--- On Wed, 7/29/09, Milton Jackson miltonwjackson at gmail.com> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "When I took grammar in high school, my\nEnglish teacher told me the reason compound verbs and\ninfinitives shouldn't be split was that large numbers of\nwords between the component parts of the phrase broke the\nflow of the sentence. How true that is I don't know, but\nthat's what I was taught.\n\n\n\nOn Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 1:22 PM,\nJerry Friedman jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>\nwrote:\n\n--- On\nWed, 7/29/09, James B. Jordan jbjordan4 at cox.net>\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "At 03:10 PM 7/23/2009, you wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Everything\nI know about split infinitives (and some things\nother\npeople know) is at\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split_infinitive" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I was taught that the rule against split infinitives\ncomes\nfrom the\noppression of Latin grammar imposed on English. Latin\ninfinitives are one\nword; hence English infinitives must be treated as\none" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "word." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You put that clearly. “However, though many people\nhave been taught that (including me), I'd like to see\nsome evidence for it. ?When the rule against split\ninfinitives was first stated, in the 19th century, did\n\nanyone actually justify the rule with Latin grammar” “Is\nthere any reason to think that was anyone's\njustification”\n\nI'd be interested in any citation earlier than the one\nin the Wikipedia article (John Opdycke, 1941). ?I'm\nnot\n\nlooking for people claiming without evidence, \"The\nsplit\ninfinitive was banned because of an analogy with\nLatin\"--\nwe have plenty of those.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-07-31T05:43:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: split infinitive", "in_reply_to": "<109629.14005.qm@web50709.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To wrench this back on topic, does Mr. Wolfe ever split\ninfinitives? Do his characters? After all the work I've\ndone on the Wikipedia article, you'd think I'd have noticed,\nbut I haven't." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interesting. After a quick scan of a variety of his books, I think he does \nit very rarely if at all. He seems to use far fewer infinitives than I do \nand seems to avoid the inclination to split them by eschewing adverbs. I \nexpected Severian, at least, to split a lot of them. That's an interesting \nstylistic signature I hadn't noticed. If someone could do a full search of \nsome of his works for the word \"to\", we could know whether this really is an \nemphatic rule that he follows." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "...were generally arguments\nagainst supposed modernism\n(Realist literature and the like)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I missed the modernism part." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can't remember the sources but they included references to splitting the \ninfinitive \"the way some do nowadays\" or something like that. That sounded \nto me like shaking your fist at \"those unruly kids\". And now that you've \npointed out that list of books in the wiki that split/don't split, I note \nthat the splitters listed are Realists. I'm surprised that Spenser is not a \nsplitter, though." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't know--is an objective reason that makes no sense\nbetter than no objective reason?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It makes sense. It's just that his reasons come apart when you pick at them \na little. I think my explanation is better, but I have the benefit of his \nfailure." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I wonder whether Opdycke was not on to something though. [reorder]\nIf one is reading a lot of literature\nclosely translated from Latin or Romance languages, rather\nthan vernacular literature, you might not run into many\nsplit infinitives.\nI can't think of an instance where the infinitive is split in\nthe King James Bible." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You have a good memory. According to /American Heritage\nBook of English Usage (quoted at the Wikip article), the\nKJV has no split infinitives." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I didn't really *remember* it, beyond that there weren't any in the passages \nI could quote from memory. I thought of the Latin translation connection \nfirst and then did a word search for \"to\" in John, Romans, Ephesians, \nProverbs, Psalms and I Samuel--the books I most expected to find splitting \nif it existed. If I'd examined the full wiki article rather than the poking \nin the notes section only, I guess I could have saved myself the trouble." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Think of the wordy feel of the personal\nletters of 18th-19th centuries. There seems to have been\nlittle drive toward the ordinary concisiveness of casual\nspeech[snip]. Isn't it possible that split the infinitive\nrule was derived from writing patterns influenced by English\nworks translated from other languages? So, indirectly,\nOpdycke might have put his finger on the root of the rule." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sure, it's possible, and many experts have said so. But I'd\nlike to see some evidence." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Has an expert really said exactly that? That the *inclination* not to split \nin 18th-19th century English was due to reading mostly Great Books that were \ntranslated from Latin?\nThe 19th century sources don't seem to give a reason at all beyond common \nusage. If one of their peers *did*, not many seem to have been aware of it. \nThat's a kind of evidence.\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<20090731122528.GD4189@broggs.org>", "from": { "name": "Jeffrey Brent McBeth", "address": "mcbeth at broggs.org" }, "date": "2009-07-31T12:25:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: split infinitive [was Re: torturing BTQ]", "in_reply_to": "<53392.1249002079@speakeasy.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 06:01:19PM -0700, Allan Anderson wrote:\nI think the functional questions are 1) does using a split infinitive allow more\nrhetorical oomph, and if so, 2) will the elegance and flash it affords\nsufficiently dazzle all but the most hardened grammarians?\n\nor,\n\nWill the reader be distracted from your point by the nagging worry that you've\nviolated some possibly valid rule?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One of the beautiful things about spoken English is the common\npractice to insert syllables, words, and phrases in the middle of\nother words and phrases where the iambic rhythm largely inherent in\nEnglish allows. I would suggest that splitting infinitives is usually\na manifestation of this larger ability (that I've not heard in Spanish\nspeakers, and my German coworkers claimed doesn't exist there either).\nOne more vulgar example is the insertion of swear words into the\nmiddle of other words (Ex. abso-.......-lutely)\n\n(On a poetical bent, I personally find heptameter more natural than\npentameter, though)\n\nJeff" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "----------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\"The man who does not read good books has no advantage over \n the man who cannot read them.\"\n -- Mark Twain\n----------------------------------------------------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<707110.14442.qm@web50705.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-07-31T13:26:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: split infinitive [was Re: torturing BTQ]", "in_reply_to": "<20090731122528.GD4189@broggs.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Fri, 7/31/09, Jeffrey Brent McBeth wrote:\nOn Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 06:01:19PM\n-0700, Allan Anderson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think the functional questions are 1) does using a\nsplit infinitive allow more\nrhetorical oomph, and if so, 2) will the elegance and\nflash it affords\nsufficiently dazzle all but the most hardened\ngrammarians?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To me, split infinitives are sometimes the most natural\nword order, with no special elegance or flash." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "or,\n\nWill the reader be distracted from your point by the\nnagging worry that you've\nviolated some possibly valid rule?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That would be too bad." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "One of the beautiful things about spoken English is the\ncommon\npractice to insert syllables, words, and phrases in the\nmiddle of\nother words and phrases where the iambic rhythm largely\ninherent in\nEnglish allows. I would suggest that splitting\ninfinitives is usually\na manifestation of this larger ability (that I've not heard\nin Spanish\nspeakers, and my German coworkers claimed doesn't exist\nthere either).\nOne more vulgar example is the insertion of swear words\ninto the\nmiddle of other words (Ex. abso-.......-lutely)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is called \"tmesis\". I thought you could only do it\nwith swear words and euphemisms for them.\n\nSpeaking of iambs (and I am), a classic example of tmesis\nis\n\nhttp://www.abc.net.au/overnights/stories/s1307296.htm" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(On a poetical bent, I personally find heptameter more\nnatural than pentameter, though)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lots of nursery rhymes, ballads, and hymns are in\nheptameter (split up into four and three), and most of\nus heard or read lots of those before we got to blank\nverse and sonnets.\n\nI can think of only three Wolfe poems offhand: the \"shooting\nstar\" one (tetrameter), the \"Row, brothers, row\" one\n(trimeter), and the \"Sad experience teaches me\" one\n(tetrameter).\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew King", "address": "automatthew at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-07-31T16:05:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: split infinitive", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 12:43 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nIf someone could do a full search of some of his works for the word \"to\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I somehow came by a few of his works in text form. Let's see what\nregular expressions can do. I'll just search for \"to \" followed by\nany word ending in \"ly\".\n\n$ ls *.txt\nDeath of Dr Island by Gene Wolfe.txt\nWolfe, Gene - Exodus From the Long Sun - Book 4.txt\nIsland of Dr Death by Gene Wolfe.txt\nWolfe, Gene - Nightside The Long Sun.txt\nSeven American Nights by Gene Wolfe.txt\nWolfe, Gene - The Claw of the Conciliator.txt\nWolfe, Gene - Book of the New Sun 1 - Shadow of the Torturer.txt\nWolfe, Gene - The Urth Of The New Sun.txt\nWolfe, Gene - Calde of the Long Sun - Book 3.txt\nWolfe, Gene - Urth of the New Sun, The.txt\n\n$ egrep -o 'to [[:alnum:]]+ly ' ./*.txt\n./Seven American Nights by Gene Wolfe.txt:to graphically\n./Seven American Nights by Gene Wolfe.txt:to fly\n./Wolfe, Gene - Nightside The Long Sun.txt:to apply\n./Wolfe, Gene - Nightside The Long Sun.txt:to fly\n./Wolfe, Gene - Nightside The Long Sun.txt:to fly\n./Wolfe, Gene - The Claw of the Conciliator.txt:to rely\n./Wolfe, Gene - The Claw of the Conciliator.txt:to fly\n./Wolfe, Gene - The Claw of the Conciliator.txt:to ply\n./Wolfe, Gene - The Claw of the Conciliator.txt:to fly\n./Wolfe, Gene - The Urth Of The New Sun.txt:to fully\n\nResults: one instance each of \"to graphically\" and \"to fully\"\n\nThe documents were obviously OCRed, so textual corruptions may have\nput some split infinitives beyond the reach of a simple search." } ] }, { "message_id": "<25913.47994.qm@web50704.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-07-31T16:25:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: split infinitive", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- On Fri, 7/31/09, Matthew King wrote:\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If someone could do a full search of some of his works\nfor the word \"to\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I somehow came by a few of his works in text form.\nLet's see what\nregular expressions can do. I'll just search for \"to\n\" followed by\nany word ending in \"ly\".\n\n$ ls *.txt\nDeath of Dr Island by Gene Wolfe.txt\nWolfe, Gene - Exodus From the Long Sun - Book 4.txt\nIsland of Dr Death by Gene Wolfe.txt\nWolfe, Gene - Nightside The Long Sun.txt\nSeven American Nights by Gene Wolfe.txt\nWolfe, Gene - The Claw of the Conciliator.txt\nWolfe, Gene - Book of the New Sun 1 - Shadow of the\nTorturer.txt\nWolfe, Gene - The Urth Of The New Sun.txt\nWolfe, Gene - Calde of the Long Sun - Book 3.txt\nWolfe, Gene - Urth of the New Sun, The.txt\n\n$ egrep -o 'to [[:alnum:]]+ly ' ./*.txt\n./Seven American Nights by Gene Wolfe.txt:to graphically\n./Seven American Nights by Gene Wolfe.txt:to fly\n./Wolfe, Gene - Nightside The Long Sun.txt:to apply\n./Wolfe, Gene - Nightside The Long Sun.txt:to fly\n./Wolfe, Gene - Nightside The Long Sun.txt:to fly\n./Wolfe, Gene - The Claw of the Conciliator.txt:to rely\n./Wolfe, Gene - The Claw of the Conciliator.txt:to fly\n./Wolfe, Gene - The Claw of the Conciliator.txt:to ply\n./Wolfe, Gene - The Claw of the Conciliator.txt:to fly\n./Wolfe, Gene - The Urth Of The New Sun.txt:to fully\n\nResults: one instance each of \"to graphically\" and\n\"to fully\"\n\nThe documents were obviously OCRed, so textual corruptions\nmay have\nput some split infinitives beyond the reach of a simple\nsearch." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And some adverbs don't end in -ly.\n\nBut /The Best of Gene Wolfe/ is on limited preview at\nGoogle Books. With your results above, I can find that\nextremely split infinitive:\n\n\"For an instant, the shadow wall used at the beginning\nof the second act was illuminated again to graphically\n(or I should say pornographically) present Ellen's\ndesire....\"\n\nhttp://books.google.com/books?id=ZiSVR-pDf6QC&pg=PA302\n\nThe one from /The Urth of the New Sun/ is a false\npositive, though.\n\n\"Baldanders rose to take it, and I saw that he had grown\nto fully twice my height.\"\n\nhttp://books.google.com/books?id=748HJZl6dAkC&pg=PA303\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n " } ] } ] }