{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5460", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5460, "subject": "Tang and Napoleon", "messages": 7, "voices": 5, "first": "2009-06-29T16:23:56+00:00", "last": "2009-07-03T02:13:03+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Stephen Hoy", "address": "stephenhoy at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-06-29T16:23:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tang and Napoleon", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I recently picked up Peace for the first time, and now that I've\ncompleted a first read of this delightfully complex horror story.\nI'm mulling it over a thing or two. One thing we know about\nPeace, which we can learn either from the evidence in the novel\nor from urth-l archives, that Julius Smart's Cassionsville\nfactory produces an acrid golden nectar marketed under the name\nof Tang. As I was reading, I noticed how frequently we run into\n'tang' throughout Peace.\n\n- the blade of a Boy Scout knife\n- the sound of a bell at the bottom of the ocean (twice 'tang')\n- china left by Olivia in the cave with the skull\n- Olivia breading a Pekingese to restore the lion-dogs of the\nTang dynasty\n- the porcelain pillow aka the Golden Millet Dream (written in\nthe Tang dynasty)\n\nI'm sure I'm missing quite a few others. One additional tang I\nfound with a dictionary search,\n- the title PEACE = tang in Welsh.\n\nOne other reminder...Olivia, Peacock, and Weer finding a skull in\na mid-cliff cave:\n----------------------------------\nShe squeezed my hand, and after a moment whispered in my ear that\nshe had left her little dish with the hen on top in the cave.\n\"For me. Because I had olives in it--do you see, Den? And\nbesides, it's china.\"\n I pointed out that it was milk glass.\n \"The bottom,\" she said firmly as Professor Peacock took his\nseat, \"was china.\"\n- Peace p 59\n----------------------------------\n\nI can't figure out whose skull lies inside the cave, but Olivia's\nwords alerted me that something from the Golden Age of China lies\nat the bottom of Peace. The novel turns on the Golden Millet\nDream, and that's more than sufficient reason for an author to\noffer variations on the Tang theme throughout the novel. Perhaps\nthat's all there is to it.\n\nOn another topic, in speaking of the Dresden figure of Napoleon,\nWeer cites Ludwig's 1924 bio as a source for his understanding of\nthe pose. Nowhere in Ludwig will you find a direct discussion of\nportraiture, nor is there a copy of David's Napoleon in His\nStudy, the likely model for the Dresden figurine. However, Ludwig\nquotes a verbal portrait given by Madame de Stael, in which she\nstates that Napoleon is at his best when he adopts a contemptuous\nair. Ludwig later elaborates this view of Napoleon, citing \"the\nthree fountains of his soul: contempt for mankind, understanding\nof the masses, and the critical aloofness of the foreigner who\nhas chosen a new fatherland.\" Reminds me of Julius T. Smart." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Christopher Keiser", "address": "slowalrus at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-06-29T17:58:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tang and Napoleon", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ahh .. I see someone else is having as much fun with PEACE as I am.\n\nThis is brilliant, I never thought to search the roots of the story in\nChinese history. My reading list has now doubled. Maybe the story, the\ncrimes and the missing pieces can be found in a retelling of a story\nfrom the Tang Dynasty.\n\nOne thing I noted previously while reading the history of the Tang\nDynasty was that the capital of the Tang Dynasty was Chang'an,\nliterally translated as \"Perpetual Peace\". After the fall of the Tang\nDynasty, the city was renamed Xi'an, \"Western Peace.\"\n\nAlso, something not mentioned before was that Macafee's name means\n\"Black Peace.\"\n\nAnother new (I believe) etymology: Margaret = pearl; Lorn = lost.\nLost Pearl. Much more to be said about that.\n\nI read through Ludwig's Napolean biography also, and agree that there\nis nothing there about the 'hand in the coat.\" A story recounted by\nthe author, however, tells of Napolean wooing Marie by stating that he\nwill put his hand under his coat and over his heart as a message of\nlove. Not sure if that means anything.\n\nIn the end I went with the theory that this is a Borges-like\ntechnique. Wolfe lists the sources, but takes from them as he will.\nI believe the offensive aspect of Den's Napolean factoid is hidden in\nPEACE, not Ludwig.\n\nAlso, I am of two minds about my research regarding the quote from the\nfalse Necronomicon wherein the writer's spirit guide leans in between\nthe moon and the dog star. I took it as an astronomical question at\nfirst, but, due to the physics of it, many stars can appear between\nthe Moon and the dog star (one of which is Canus Minor .. maybe?).\n\nAfter thinking about it, could this be a pun? One who leans in\nbetween the moon and the dog star? A name for the dog star is Sirius.\n Someone between seriousness (sirius-ness) and lunacy? The author\nhimself? Maybe not ;-)\n\nThanks," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 12:23 PM, Stephen Hoy wrote:\nI recently picked up Peace for the first time, and now that I've completed\na first read of this delightfully complex horror story. I'm mulling it over\na thing or two. One thing we know about Peace, which we can learn either\nfrom the evidence in the novel or from?urth-l archives, that?Julius Smart's\nCassionsville factory produces an acrid golden nectar?marketed under the\nname of?Tang. As I was reading, I noticed how frequently we run into\n'tang'?throughout Peace.\n\n- the blade of a Boy Scout knife\n- the sound of a bell at the bottom of the ocean (twice 'tang')\n- china left by Olivia in the cave with the skull\n- Olivia breading a Pekingese to restore the lion-dogs of the Tang dynasty\n- the porcelain pillow aka the Golden Millet Dream (written in the Tang\ndynasty)\n\nI'm sure?I'm missing quite a few others. One additional tang I found with a\ndictionary search,\n- the title PEACE = tang in Welsh.\n\nOne other reminder...Olivia, Peacock, and Weer finding a skull in\na mid-cliff cave:\n----------------------------------\nShe squeezed my hand, and after a moment whispered in my ear that she had\nleft her little dish with the hen on top in the cave. \"For me. Because I had\nolives in it--do you see, Den? And besides, it's china.\"\n? I pointed out that it was milk glass.\n? \"The bottom,\" she said firmly as Professor Peacock took his seat, \"was\nchina.\"\n- Peace p 59\n----------------------------------\n\nI can't figure out whose skull lies inside the cave, but?Olivia's words\nalerted me that something from the Golden Age of China lies at the bottom of\nPeace. The novel turns on the Golden Millet Dream, and that's more than\nsufficient reason for an author to offer variations on the Tang theme\nthroughout the novel. Perhaps that's all there is to it.\n\nOn another topic, in speaking of the Dresden figure of Napoleon, Weer\ncites?Ludwig's 1924 bio as a source for his understanding of the pose.\nNowhere in Ludwig will you find a direct discussion of portraiture, nor is\nthere a copy of?David's Napoleon in His Study, the likely model for the\nDresden figurine. However, Ludwig quotes a verbal portrait given by Madame\nde Stael, in which she states that Napoleon is at his best when he adopts a\ncontemptuous air. Ludwig later elaborates this view of Napoleon, citing?\"the\nthree fountains of his soul: contempt for mankind, understanding of the\nmasses, and the critical aloofness of the foreigner who has chosen a new\nfatherland.\" Reminds me of Julius T. Smart.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "aaron", "address": "aaronsingleton at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-06-30T01:37:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tang and Napoleon", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For some reason, I recall reading that the reason for the hand under the\ncoat was to soothe gas pains... Perhaps I misremember." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Aaron Singleton" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Christopher Keiser", "address": "slowalrus at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-06-30T15:13:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tang and Napoleon", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well there are lots of theories, I remember something about Napolean\nhaving Klinefelter's syndrome and increased breast development was\ncausing his nipples to run against his coat. However, the truth of\nthe matter is less interesting:\n\nhttp://www.napoleon-series.org/faq/c_hand.html\n\nThe hand in coat pose was just an artistic trope of the day.\n\nBut the question is: how is Wolfe using it? Several people, including\nme, have read through Ludwig, and find nothing about the pose, or,\ntruly anything that would \"invariably offend.\"\n\nThis could point to several uses.\n\n1. Wolfe misread (or didn't read) Ludwig, and just cited the biography\ndue to its popularity in that time period. If so, the reader would\nhave to read Wolfe's mind to see which popular 'hand in coat pose'\ntheory he was using in the novel.\n\n2. The discussion of the Dresden Napoleon figure is a red-herring.\nThe importance lies not in Napoleon's pose, but, describes the reason\nDen never tells the whole truth, as he has learned that the whole\ntruth \"invariably offends.\"\n\n3. Most of us agree that the figure represents Smart. Maybe Den is\npulling a Borges, and citing a source, but making up his own story.\nIf so, I think the reason for the pose is hidden in the story itself.\n\n\nOr, all the above, or, none ;-)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 9:37 PM, aaron wrote:\nFor some reason, I recall reading that the reason for the hand under the\ncoat was to soothe gas pains... Perhaps I misremember.\n\n\n--\nAaron Singleton\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Stephen Hoy", "address": "stephenhoy at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-06-30T19:25:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tang and Napoleon", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Another word or two about porcelain. It's formed from a hard clay paste\nheated to an extreme temperature.\n\nDresden china lays claim to being the first European hard paste porcelain.\nThe story goes that an apothecary and his alchemist assistant reverse\nengineered the secret of hard paste porcelain, a secret which had been the\nexclusive province of the Middle Kingdom since the Tang dynasty. The\napothecary died before the Meissen factory went into production, so the\napothecary wound up with most of the personal profits. Wolfe doesn't mention\nthis factoid in Peace, but it's a curious background item not much different\nfrom the Tilly/Smart partnership." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4A4A9B1B.1060400@hyraxes.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Lebling", "address": "dlebling at hyraxes.com" }, "date": "2009-06-30T23:09:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tang and Napoleon", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I posted about Ludwig's book years ago when this came up. The theory \nthat I like best is that the hand-in-coat pose was actually a common \nartistic convention in Napoleon's era, particularly in France. Today few \nhave heard of it and so it seems strange and bizarre.\n\nMy take on Weer's story is that he was doing what many highly \nintelligent but socially awkward types do in conversation (at MIT we \ncalled it \"nerdulating\"), which is to claim more authoritative knowledge \nthan he had.\n\n-- Dave Lebling, aka vizcacha" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4A4D692F.5090109@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-07-03T02:13:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tang and Napoleon", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Stephen Hoy wrote:\nAnother word or two about porcelain. It's formed from a hard clay paste\nheated to an extreme temperature.\n\nDresden china lays claim to being the first European hard paste porcelain.\nThe story goes that an apothecary and his alchemist assistant reverse\nengineered the secret of hard paste porcelain, a secret which had been the\nexclusive province of the Middle Kingdom since the Tang dynasty. The\napothecary died before the Meissen factory went into production, so the\napothecary wound up with most of the personal profits. Wolfe doesn't mention\nthis factoid in Peace, but it's a curious background item not much different\nfrom the Tilly/Smart partnership." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Janet Gleeson's _The Arcanum_ has the latest, greatest historical \ndetails of the story., with a summary on the page below\n\n\thttp://www.amazon.com/Arcanum-Extraordinary-True-Story/dp/0446674842\n\nBottger the alchemist died from inhaling too many fumes in the few short \nyears of his employ/captivity by the Augustus the Strong, but due to \nlots of graft and corruption, lack of limited liability entities, and \nthe preindustrial counterpart to industrial espionage, nobody really \nmade a fortune on it other than Augustus, who did merely okay \nconsidering he was a king to start with and lost half his domain partway \nthrough the affair." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] } ] }