{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5466", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5466, "subject": "Auk's dimber tip to all flash coves", "messages": 14, "voices": 7, "first": "2009-07-09T16:58:49+00:00", "last": "2009-07-26T23:28:08+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-07-09T16:58:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Auk's dimber tip to all flash coves", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----\nHash: SHA512\n\nSo I recently began reading the Long Sun (up to _Exodus_), when I\nsuddenly realized that some of the thieves' cant I already knew, and\nnot from context.\n\nAfter racking my brain, I finally remembered where from. Douglas\nHofstadter's _Le Ton de Beau Marot_ is all about translations, and one\nof the pairs of poem translations is a poem by Francois Villon to his\nfellow ne'er-do-wells - translated once into ordinary English\nvernacular, and again into English using London thieves' argot. For\nyour amusement, I present below a copy of the transcription at\nhttp://www.fromoldbooks.org/Farmer-MusaPedestris/villons-straight-tip-to-all-cross-coves.html\n(Fear not, it is public domain!):\n\n\"Villon’s Straight Tip To All Cross Coves\"\ntrans. 1887 William Ernest Henley.\n\n_Tout aux tavernes et aux filles_\n\nI\n\nSuppose you screeve, or go cheap-jack?\n Or fake the broads? or fig a nag?\nOr thimble-rig? or knap a yack?\n Or pitch a snide? or smash a rag?\n Suppose you duff? or nose and lag?\nOr get the straight, and land your pot?\n How do you melt the multy swag?\nBooze and the blowens cop the lot.\n\nII\n\nFiddle, or fence, or mace, or mack;\n Or moskeneer, or flash the drag;\nDead-lurk a crib, or do a crack;\n Pad with a slang, or chuck a fag;\n Bonnet, or tout, or mump and gag;\nRattle the tats, or mark the spot\n You cannot bank a single stag:\nBooze and the blowens cop the lot.\n\nIII\n\nSuppose you try a different tack,\n And on the square you flash your flag?\nAt penny-a-lining make your whack,\n Or with the mummers mug and gag?\n For nix, for nix the dibbs you bag\nAt any graft, no matter what!\n Your merry goblins soon stravag:\nBooze and the blowens cop the lor.\n\n_The Moral._\n\nIt’s up-the-spout and Charley-Wag\n With wipes and tickers and what not!\nUntil the squeezer nips your scrag,\n Booze and the blowens cop the lot.\n\n- --\ngwern\n-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----\nVersion: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)\n\niEYEAREKAAYFAkpWIUYACgkQvpDo5Pfl1oKxnACfWOJgNJKmZ/ror/3RkZqN9uu7\nH7UAoJajcJefxZrCdk9iPhLId3UNsNi0\n=DpmC\n-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20090709171810.GA5416@broggs.org>", "from": { "name": "Jeffrey Brent McBeth", "address": "mcbeth at broggs.org" }, "date": "2009-07-09T17:18:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Auk's dimber tip to all flash coves", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jul 09, 2009 at 12:58:49PM -0400, Gwern Branwen wrote:\n-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----\nHash: SHA512\n\nAfter racking my brain, I finally remembered where from. Douglas\nHofstadter's _Le Ton de Beau Marot_ is all about translations, and one" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yet more proof I really really need to read that book.\n\nJeff" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "----------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\"The man who does not read good books has no advantage over \n the man who cannot read them.\"\n -- Mark Twain\n----------------------------------------------------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<44fb53d10907092123s5cc08821y5d88fe9e22031f17@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-07-10T04:23:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Auk's dimber tip to all flash coves", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 12:58 PM, Gwern Branwen wrote:\n\nAfter racking my brain, I finally remembered where from. Douglas\nHofstadter's _Le Ton de Beau Marot_ is all about translations, and one\nof the pairs of poem translations is a poem by Francois Villon to his\nfellow ne'er-do-wells - translated once into ordinary English\nvernacular, and again into English using London thieves' argot. For\nyour amusement, I present below a copy of the transcription at\nhttp://www.fromoldbooks.org/Farmer-MusaPedestris/villons-straight-tip-to-all-cross-coves.html\n(Fear not, it is public domain!):\ngwern" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's pretty great. Makes me want to go and dig out the bilingual\nVillon I bought for a college French class on medieval violence.\n\nThieves' cant shows up in quite a few Victorian novels - There's a bit\nin Oliver Twist, for example. A quick Google search says that William\nHarrison Ainsworth's novel Rookwood is full of it. A slightly longer\nGoogle search turned up this ebook:\n\nhttp://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks06/0600111.txt\n\nIt's an 1812 dictionary of thieves' cant by an ostensibly reformed thief. Enjoy!\n\n-Matt" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-07-10T12:16:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Auk's dimber tip to all flash coves", "in_reply_to": "<44fb53d10907092123s5cc08821y5d88fe9e22031f17@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----\nHash: SHA512" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 12:23 AM, Matthew Keeley wrote:\nThat's pretty great. Makes me want to go and dig out the bilingual\nVillon I bought for a college French class on medieval violence.\n\nThieves' cant shows up in quite a few Victorian novels - There's a bit\nin Oliver Twist, for example. A quick Google search says that William\nHarrison Ainsworth's novel Rookwood is full of it. A slightly longer\nGoogle search turned up this ebook:\n\nhttp://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks06/0600111.txt\n\nIt's an 1812 dictionary of thieves' cant by an ostensibly reformed thief. Enjoy!\n\n-Matt" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's a nice link too. But while we're on the topic, what's the\nUrth.net consensus on the cant in the Long Sun? Did Wolfe make it up,\nonly patterning it on English thieves' argot, or have we found a\nsource yet?\n\n(I know it can't be that 1812 dictionary because it's missing dimber,\nabram, and cully just off the top of my head. I've been keeping a list\nas I read through, but there's no point in checking the rest if it's\nmissing those...)\n\n- --\ngwern\n-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----\nVersion: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)\n\niEYEAREKAAYFAkpXMIgACgkQvpDo5Pfl1oIRCQCfT5NZNmEYYeKV68F5AmogAvQQ\nVpMAnibMk/wwL4B43u7b1K6u4Lho+5Q6\n=6ddo\n-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----" } ] }, { "message_id": "<44fb53d10907101630y29f084f2j44d44fc0a77c58f9@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-07-10T23:30:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Auk's dimber tip to all flash coves", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 8:16 AM, Gwern Branwen wrote:\n\n(I know it can't be that 1812 dictionary because it's missing dimber,\nabram, and cully just off the top of my head. I've been keeping a list\nas I read through, but there's no point in checking the rest if it's\nmissing those...)\n\n- --\ngwern" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How about this 1811 dictionary? It has all three.\n\nhttp://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/5402\n\n-Matt" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-07-11T02:53:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Auk's dimber tip to all flash coves", "in_reply_to": "<44fb53d10907101630y29f084f2j44d44fc0a77c58f9@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 7:30 PM, Matthew\nKeeley wrote:\nHow about this 1811 dictionary? It has all three.\n\nhttp://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/5402" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's certainly better; it has a few others - bob cull, 'scavey'\n(Wolfe spells it 'scavy'), cank, to twig, mort (but does Wolfe use\nmort just for women?), cits (but just in the preface, what good is\nthat...)\n\nBut not limer, mews, hornboy, hoppy, or bucky. Guess we need a few\nmore dictionaries..." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4A5A5ADD.3090003@hyraxes.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Lebling", "address": "dlebling at hyraxes.com" }, "date": "2009-07-12T21:51:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Auk's dimber tip to all flash coves", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My recollection is that \"hoppy\" was from the green uniforms of the \nVironese police (by analogy with frogs).\n\nI forget where \"limer\" and \"mews\" are used but they are perfectly good \n(if obscure) words. Limers are mentioned in books about the English \nunderclass (Kellow Chesney's \"The Victorian Underworld\" is a good one -- \nNeil Gaiman recommends it and it's fascinating), where the word refers \nto people who catch birds using birdlime. \"Hornboy\" and \"bucky\" are not \neven completely obsolete today, if I twig their meanings (\"catamite\" and \n\"buddy\" respectively).\n\n-- Dave Lebling, aka vizcacha" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gwern Branwen wrote:\nOn Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 7:30 PM, Matthew\nKeeley wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "How about this 1811 dictionary? It has all three.\n\nhttp://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/5402\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's certainly better; it has a few others - bob cull, 'scavey'\n(Wolfe spells it 'scavy'), cank, to twig, mort (but does Wolfe use\nmort just for women?), cits (but just in the preface, what good is\nthat...)\n\nBut not limer, mews, hornboy, hoppy, or bucky. Guess we need a few\nmore dictionaries...\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-07-19T07:43:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Auk's dimber tip to all flash coves", "in_reply_to": "<4A5A5ADD.3090003@hyraxes.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----\nHash: SHA512" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, Jul 12, 2009 at 5:51 PM, Dave Lebling wrote:\nMy recollection is that \"hoppy\" was from the green uniforms of the Vironese\npolice (by analogy with frogs).\n\nI forget where \"limer\" and \"mews\" are used but they are perfectly good (if\nobscure) words. Limers are mentioned in books about the English underclass\n(Kellow Chesney's \"The Victorian Underworld\" is a good one -- Neil Gaiman\nrecommends it and it's fascinating), where the word refers to people who\ncatch birds using birdlime. \"Hornboy\" and \"bucky\" are not even completely\nobsolete today, if I twig their meanings (\"catamite\" and \"buddy\"\nrespectively)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hm. I didn't catch the roots for limer or bucky. Maybe a Lexicon\nUrthus is in order for the Long Sun/Short Sun books?\n\n- --\ngwern\n-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----\nVersion: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)\n\niEYEAREKAAYFAkpizqoACgkQvpDo5Pfl1oIoMwCdH+z8FGWIq4UU+fbLzmEZvOYo\n9OwAn3gSxgIUgKyEqhXwmTxbnyFwDnZV\n=DG6l\n-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----" } ] }, { "message_id": "<001e01ca08ab$b48f4b00$61d04a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2009-07-19T20:01:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Auk's dimber tip to all flash coves", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gwern Branwen quoted and wrote:\nOn Sun, Jul 12, 2009 at 5:51 PM, Dave Lebling wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "My recollection is that \"hoppy\" was from the green uniforms of the\nVironese\npolice (by analogy with frogs).\n\nI forget where \"limer\" and \"mews\" are used but they are perfectly good\n(if\nobscure) words. Limers are mentioned in books about the English\nunderclass\n(Kellow Chesney's \"The Victorian Underworld\" is a good one -- Neil\nGaiman\nrecommends it and it's fascinating), where the word refers to people who\ncatch birds using birdlime. \"Hornboy\" and \"bucky\" are not even\ncompletely\nobsolete today, if I twig their meanings (\"catamite\" and \"buddy\"\nrespectively)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hm. I didn't catch the roots for limer or bucky. Maybe a Lexicon\nUrthus is in order for the Long Sun/Short Sun books?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As Dave said, \"mews\" and \"limer\" are just obscure words. I recall that the\nmews of a stable near the Inn of Lost Loves was where the ostler Trudo kept\nhis belongings and may have slept: \"Trudo's gone, cook says. She was out\nfetchin' water water 'cause the girl was gone, and seen him runnin' off, and\nhis things is gone from the mews too.\" (SHADOW, chap. XXVI)\n\nAlso, Wolfe had a limer as a character in \"Our Neighbour by David\nCopperfield\" (ENDANGERED SPECIES) who talked about how lime was used to\ncatch birds: \"But I liked him and I used to set by him, and it was him that\ntaught me how to lime the birds.\"\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3FE4E692A33041CFAB590CF5FA57429D@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-07-20T14:27:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Auk's dimber tip to all flash coves", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gwern Branwen says:\nThat's a nice link too. But while we're on the topic, what's the\nUrth.net consensus on the cant in the Long Sun? Did Wolfe make it up,\nonly patterning it on English thieves' argot, or have we found a\nsource yet? (I know it can't be that 1812 dictionary because it's missing \ndimber,\nabram, and cully just off the top of my head. I've been keeping a list\nas I read through, but there's no point in checking the rest if it's\nmissing those...)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nathan Bailey's \"Canting Dictionary\" (1737) contains all three of those \nwords:\nhttp://www.fromoldbooks.org/NathanBailey-CantingDictionary/transcription.html " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-07-25T19:04:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Auk's dimber tip to all flash coves", "in_reply_to": "<3FE4E692A33041CFAB590CF5FA57429D@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Jul 20, 2009 at 10:27 AM, James Wynn wrote:\n\nNathan Bailey's \"Canting Dictionary\" (1737) contains all three of those\nwords:\nhttp://www.fromoldbooks.org/NathanBailey-CantingDictionary/transcription.html" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's a pretty good dictionary indeed. But I'm starting to think\nthere may be no one dictionary Wolfe used - that one doesn't include\n'hanger', 'queer' (as in 'queer it'), 'coypun', 'hacking',\n'skittlepin', 'scavy', 'coaming', 'bucky', 'hornboy' etc. at least a\nfew of which I'm sure are thieves' cant in the Long Sun." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-07-25T19:07:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Auk's dimber tip to all flash coves", "in_reply_to": "<001e01ca08ab$b48f4b00$61d04a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, Jul 19, 2009 at 4:01 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nAs Dave said, \"mews\" and \"limer\" are just obscure words. I recall that the\nmews of a stable near the Inn of Lost Loves was where the ostler Trudo kept\nhis belongings and may have slept: \"Trudo's gone, cook says. She was out\nfetchin' water water 'cause the girl was gone, and seen him runnin' off, and\nhis things is gone from the mews too.\" (SHADOW, chap. XXVI)\n\nAlso, Wolfe had a limer as a character in \"Our Neighbour by David\nCopperfield\" (ENDANGERED SPECIES) who talked about how lime was used to\ncatch birds: \"But I liked him and I used to set by him, and it was him that\ntaught me how to lime the birds.\"\n\n-Roy" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "By token of their obscurity, aren't they appropriate for such a lexicon?\n\n(But looking mews and limes up in my newly arrived _Lexicon Urthus_\n2nd edition, I see no entries. How disappointing!)" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern" } ] }, { "message_id": "<44fb53d10907260932w254808e5n755c06d6e6284953@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-07-26T16:32:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Auk's dimber tip to all flash coves", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 3:07 PM, Gwern Branwen wrote:\n\nBy token of their obscurity, aren't they appropriate for such a lexicon?\n\n(But looking mews and limes up in my newly arrived _Lexicon Urthus_\n2nd edition, I see no entries. How disappointing!)\n\n--\ngwern" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think \"mews\" is much less obscure in other parts of the world. In\nIreland at least there were lots of places with \"mews\" in the name and\nlots of very nice converted stables called \"mews.\" If I were writing a\nlexicon, I'd probably leave it out. This would be a mistake.\n\nThe stuff about limers is definitely more obscure though. Unless\nyou've read lots of Victorian fiction.\n\n-Matt" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jenny Blackford", "address": "jennyblackford at bigpond.com" }, "date": "2009-07-26T23:28:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Auk's dimber tip to all flash coves", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A note from an Australian lurker (and Wolfe reviewer now and then):\n\nThe word \"mews\" isn't obscure in British English, though it's not\noften used in Australia. It's used quite commonly as an architectural\ndescription in British novels even now, and presumably also in speech. I \nremember not knowing exactly it meant, as a kid reading Agatha Christie, but \nassuming it was a form of housing and not bothering to check the\ndictionary.\n\nThe word \"cove\" is now pretty much obsolete in Australian English, but still\nused by old people. My father will still refer to men as \"coves\", as in\n\"some silly old cove down at the golf club\". The word \"flash\" was in common \nuse\nwhen I was at school as an alternative to \"flashy\", as in \"that's a flash\ncar\", and is still understood. I don't know whether kids use it.\n\n----- Original Message ----- \nFrom: \"Gwern Branwen\" " } ] } ] }