Wolfe at Dragon*Con (AEG)

Here's some AEG grist for the mill. Wolfe talked about how much he enjoyed Cassie in "An Evil Guest". This is how he described the end of the novel: "Cassie loved Bill Riese and at the end of the novel she goes to Woldercon to look for him."

On Sep 9, 2009, at 7:40 AM, James Wynn wrote: Here's some AEG grist for the mill. Wolfe talked about how much he enjoyed Cassie in "An Evil Guest". This is how he described the end of the novel: "Cassie loved Bill Riese and at the end of the novel she goes to Woldercon to look for him."

Look, maybe this has already been said, but don't recall it. I thought I'd surely get a reaction on this quote so I'm going up the ante. For reasons, that would be compelling only to me, the death of Bill Reise at the end of AEG really sat wrong with me. It struck me as totally random. But if the person killed on the island were Gideon Chase in disguise, it makes perfectly good sense. Also, Bill Reise avowing his love for Cassie at his death seemed so out-of- character. So when Wolfe said this in the panel on Fictional Characters, a series of tumblers fell into place in my head. It was Bill Reise disguised as Gideon Chase who left for Woldercon at the end of AEG. Cassie didn't go to Woldercon merely to get her mojo back (although she would probably need to in order to win Reise). I'm not prepared to prove it is so, but I really really makes sense that it would be that way. J. _______________________________________________

Here's some AEG grist for the mill. Wolfe talked about how much he enjoyed Cassie in "An Evil Guest". This is how he described the end of the novel: "Cassie loved Bill Riese and at the end of the novel she goes to Woldercon to look for him."

if the person killed on the island were Gideon Chase in disguise, it makes perfectly good sense. [snip] It was Bill Reise disguised as Gideon Chase who left for Woldercon at the end of AEG. I'm not prepared to prove it is so, but I really really makes sense that it would be that way.

Ah, that does help me shed a bit of the "wtf" feeling that came over me at the end of my non-analytic reading of AEG. There are certainly other explanations, but this one is very interesting.

James Wynn wrote: Look, maybe this has already been said, but don't recall it. I thought I'd surely get a reaction on this quote so I'm going up the ante. For reasons, that would be compelling only to me, the death of Bill Reise at the end of AEG really sat wrong with me. It struck me as totally random. But if the person killed on the island were Gideon Chase in disguise, it makes perfectly good sense. Also, Bill Reise avowing his love for Cassie at his death seemed so out-of-character. So when Wolfe said this in the panel on Fictional Characters, a series of tumblers fell into place in my head. It was Bill Reise disguised as Gideon Chase who left for Woldercon at the end of AEG. Cassie didn't go to Woldercon merely to get her mojo back (although she would probably need to in order to win Reise).

On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 4:18 PM, Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net> wrote: James Wynn wrote:

Look, maybe this has already been said, but don't recall it. I thought I'd surely get a reaction on this quote so I'm going up the ante. For reasons, that would be compelling only to me, the death of Bill Reise at the end of AEG really sat wrong with me. It struck me as totally random. But if the person killed on the island were Gideon Chase in disguise, it makes perfectly good sense. Also, Bill Reise avowing his love for Cassie at his death seemed so out-of-character. So when Wolfe said this in the panel on Fictional Characters, a series of tumblers fell into place in my head. It was Bill Reise disguised as Gideon Chase who left for Woldercon at the end of AEG. Cassie didn't go to Woldercon merely to get her mojo back (although she would probably need to in order to win Reise).

Reis was a big man; Gideon was not. A conventional disguise or one that involves a "glamour", to say nothing of shape shifting, would have to account for Gid's missing leg. Shape shifting involves a certain conservation of mass, such that the subject will weigh the same after the transformation as before. Cassie told Klauser that Reis was dead, and at the end of the book, when there was no one to hear her and she was on the way to Woldercan, she bemoaned his death. Who was she fooling? She had been in perfect position to see the body that had been clubbed to death, and she had been forced to watch. Shape-changers and glamour-casters lose control at death. Who did Cassie--and more importantly the islanders--see dead at her feet, if not Bill Reis? I don't think it is possible for it to have been one-legged Gideon Chase. -Roy _______________________________________________

On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 7:29 PM, Allan Anderson <rubel at goosemoon.org> wrote: Hmm -- isn't there some stuff about time progressing at a different rate on Woldercan? Letters arriving before they're sent, etc. Maybe Wolfe meant she's trying to find a past Reis. Just a random idea. On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 4:18 PM, Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net> wrote:

James Wynn wrote:

Look, maybe this has already been said, but don't recall it. I thought I'd surely get a reaction on this quote so I'm going up the ante. For reasons, that would be compelling only to me, the death of Bill Reise at the end of AEG really sat wrong with me. It struck me as totally random. But if the person killed on the island were Gideon Chase in disguise, it makes perfectly good sense. Also, Bill Reise avowing his love for Cassie at his death seemed so out-of-character. So when Wolfe said this in the panel on Fictional Characters, a series of tumblers fell into place in my head. It was Bill Reise disguised as Gideon Chase who left for Woldercon at the end of AEG. Cassie didn't go to Woldercon merely to get her mojo back (although she would probably need to in order to win Reise).

Reis was a big man; Gideon was not. A conventional disguise or one that involves a "glamour", to say nothing of shape shifting, would have to account for Gid's missing leg. Shape shifting involves a certain conservation of mass, such that the subject will weigh the same after the transformation as before. Cassie told Klauser that Reis was dead, and at the end of the book, when there was no one to hear her and she was on the way to Woldercan, she bemoaned his death. Who was she fooling? She had been in perfect position to see the body that had been clubbed to death, and she had been forced to watch. Shape-changers and glamour-casters lose control at death. Who did Cassie--and more importantly the islanders--see dead at her feet, if not Bill Reis? I don't think it is possible for it to have been one-legged Gideon Chase. -Roy _______________________________________________

Reis was a big man; Gideon was not. A conventional disguise or one that involves a "glamour", to say nothing of shape shifting, would have to account for Gid's missing leg.

Shape shifting involves a certain conservation of mass, such that the subject will weigh the same after the transformation as before.

Cassie told Klauser that Reis was dead, and at the end of the book, when there was no one to hear her and she was on the way to Woldercan, she bemoaned his death. Who was she fooling?

She had been in perfect position to see the body that had been clubbed to death, and she had been forced to watch. Shape-changers and glamour-casters lose control at death.

Who did Cassie--and more importantly the islanders--see dead at her feet, if not Bill Reis?

I don't think it is possible for it to have been one-legged Gideon Chase.

James Wynn quoted and wrote: Shape shifting involves a certain conservation of mass, such that the subject will weigh the same after the transformation as before.

You have me at a disadvantage. I'm not an expert on the limits of Gideon's nor Reis's ability to shape-shift. However, a prosthetic leg that looks realistic on a guy in pants is neither magic nor speculative fiction.

Cassie told Klauser that Reis was dead, and at the end of the book, when there was no one to hear her and she was on the way to Woldercan, she bemoaned his death. Who was she fooling?

It was you who first pointed out that Reis seemed to be more than one.

Reis are we talking about? It's true she says "Bill...why did you have to die" but then she says "Come back to me Wally!"

She had been in perfect position to see the body that had been clubbed to death, and she had been forced to watch. Shape-changers and glamour-casters lose control at death.

Do they? I can't do it and so I don't know much about it. In any case, the natives did not have long to study the body before Cassie smoked the king, and was carried away by the bat things.

Who did Cassie--and more importantly the islanders--see dead at her feet, if not Bill Reis?

Wolfe said Cassie went to Woldercon to find Reis. If he didn't die on the island, then obviously Cassie knew it. Why wouldn't she? Since Cassie was swept away immediately after killing the king, we cannot know what happened among the natives afterward.

I don't think it is possible for it to have been one-legged Gideon Chase.

You are freely conclusion jumping. I don't see how you found your way to be so emphatically sure about all this based on what you have offered here.

Look, Roy, Reis and Cassie were about to be married. But Bill Reis --who loved Cassie as much for the way she adorned himself as anything else-- could not arrange to have either his oldest friend there nor his own son to watch the big event.

He was practically eloping with her. Does that seem likely? Why would he do that? The whole thing stinks.

On the other hand, why would Chase disguised as Reis do that? Lots of reasons.

the man who became the wolf was a big man.

That's why it matters that Reis was a big man and Gid was not, and Gid was a leg shy of his normal weight.

You are freely conclusion jumping. I don't see how you found your way to be so emphatically sure about all this based on what you have offered here.

I jump to conclusions?

Look, Roy, Reis and Cassie were about to be married. But Bill Reis --who loved Cassie as much for the way she adorned himself as anything else-- could not arrange to have either his oldest friend there nor his own son to watch the big event.

Huh? Where did you get that idea? Reis told Cassie that he wanted Rian there (p-276-77). Klauser received a wedding invitation (295), but was too ill to attend (278).

He was practically eloping with her. Does that seem likely? Why would he do that? The whole thing stinks.

Cassie is the one who wanted a simple ceremony (275).

Even so, it was to be held on the grounds of the New Zealand consulate (278), with her friends flown in and "hundreds" of islanders in attendance (276).

James Wynn wrote: Look, Roy, Reis and Cassie were about to be married. But Bill Reis --who loved Cassie as much for the way she adorned himself as anything else-- could not arrange to have either his oldest friend there nor his own son to watch the big event.

Huh? Where did you get that idea? Reis told Cassie that he wanted Rian there (p-276-77). Klauser received a wedding invitation (295), but was too ill to attend (278).

Yes. He SAID he wanted Rian there. He SAID he wanted his life-long best friend there. But this man with all his money and power couldn't arrange to have the ceremony when and where those close to him could attend?

Rian planned to attend (277).

Klauser could not have attended, no matter where the wedding was held, for health reasons.

Reis could not have had the ceremony just anywhere, not if he wanted the wedding to conform to his dream of making Cassie his island queen. That is what the play was all about.

For some reason, you want Reis not to have died on the island.

I can only assume that you suggest Gideon died in his stead because Gid is the only viable alternative.

All this stuff about the wedding is just your attempt to make it seem that the man Cassie was about to marry was not Bill Reis.

Neither do I think it likely that Reis, posing as Gideon Chase, was appointed by the sitting president as U.S. ambassador to Woldercan. No matter how good Reis may have been at shape-shifting, there is still the mass-conversion angle to account for. As for just altering one's appearance, as Gid did to become Gil Corby, it doesn't fool mirrors (196) or cameras (189, 194). The wedding invitation Klauser received came with pictures to be displayed on a computer that showed Cassie and Reis kissing (295). I dare say Klauser knew Reis when he saw him.

On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 5:11 PM, James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com> wrote: Incidentally, I've never heard Wolfe use the name Gideon Chase when he talks about AEG. He always refers to him as "a wizard". I don't know what that means if anything.

James Wynn quoted and wrote: Rian planned to attend (277).

Well, we'll see. I'm beginning to find the existence of Rian (as an actual son anyway) to be pretty suspect. As we agree, there is a serious problem with his failure to make an actual entrance in the story. This is especially true for a Wolfe novel.

Neither do I think it likely that Reis, posing as Gideon Chase, was appointed by the sitting president as U.S. ambassador to Woldercan. No matter how good Reis may have been at shape-shifting, there is still the mass-conversion angle to account for. As for just altering one's appearance, as Gid did to become Gil Corby, it doesn't fool mirrors (196) or cameras (189, 194). The wedding invitation Klauser received came with pictures to be displayed on a computer that showed Cassie and Reis kissing (295). I dare say Klauser knew Reis when he saw him.

Shape-shifting is unnecessary, but a perfect impersonation is also unnecessary. The Woldercon appointment was probably in lieu of the $50 million Chase was owed. I saw nothing in the President's face-to-face with Chase that made me think he would want to repeat it. The wedding invitation Klauser received was not of the wedding. It might well have been sent by the "real Reis" (whatever that means).

Any theory that seeks to reconcile these two seemingly contrary points must do so within the bounds of the text, and cannot ignore such text-based facts as we are afforded, however inconvenient those facts may be to said theory.

Now back to your original jumping-off point: If Wolfe said that Cassie was going to Woldercan to find Reis, and if he wasn't pulling your leg (I would like to have the full context of his remark)

that doesn't preclude Reis having died on the island, just as the text has it.

Ambassador to Woldercan is a high-profile position in a digital age. There would have been pictures and video in the media, both of which would have penetrated a magical disguise. Ambassadorships don't happen in a vacuum. Reis would have to have been a fool to even try such a ruse.

More to the point, Reis would have had no need to seek Gideon's post as ambassador. He was more than wealthy enough to go to Woldercan on his own dime, even if he had any reason to go there, just as Cassie did.

On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 9:19 AM, Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net> wrote: Now back to your original jumping-off point: If Wolfe said that Cassie was going to Woldercan to find Reis, and if he wasn't pulling your leg (I would like to have the full context of his remark), that doesn't preclude Reis having died on the island, just as the text has it.

James Wynn wrote: I truly appreciate you taking time to take pot-shots at my theory but 1) I don't have much of a theory yet to shoot at, and 2) keep your bead on the theory/hypothesis and not at me.

The text based refutations you've offered are not as compelling as you seem to think they are.

Ambassador to Woldercan is a high-profile position in a digital age. There would have been pictures and video in the media, both of which would have penetrated a magical disguise. Ambassadorships don't happen in a vacuum. Reis would have to have been a fool to even try such a ruse.

This is a ridiculous assertion.

When is the last time you saw media coverage of the ambassador to England leaving for his post? Mind, the universe of AEG is not our own.

More to the point, Reis would have had no need to seek Gideon's post as ambassador. He was more than wealthy enough to go to Woldercan on his own dime, even if he had any reason to go there, just as Cassie did.

Why do you assume that's the reason he would have assumed Gideon's identity?

The US government wasn't going to let him leave without revealing his secret. The aliens of Takanga seemed to have a beef with him. He might have used his manufactured gold to get to Woldercon, but eventually it would have shown up as radioactive and the government would have followed him there.

On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 2:04 PM, James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com> wrote: Any theory that seeks to reconcile these two seemingly contrary points must do so within the bounds of the text, and cannot ignore such text-based facts as we are afforded, however inconvenient those facts may be to said theory.

I absolutely agree with this. I made no definitive declarations about Reis's death or Chase being the impersonator. The last sentence in my first post on this subject stated "I'm not prepared to prove it is so." I truly appreciate you taking time to take pot-shots at my theory but 1) I don't have much of a theory yet to shoot at, and 2) keep your bead on the theory/hypothesis and not at me. The text based refutations you've offered are not as compelling as you seem to think they are. This is especially true for your "practical", non-text based refutations. I've explained why, but I don't seem to be getting across. As you know, anyone who believes that all the answers in a Wolfe novel are in the text in any emphatic, unequivocal sense is deluding himself. De-looooooding. Even if the explanation is there, it is typically surrounded by 3 or 4 other reasonable interpretations of the explanation, and someone can probably point to an expert character to say it couldn't possibly be true. Every Wolfe novel and plenty of short stories requires that the reader take a jump over an abyss at some point and then look back to see if he has landed safely. It's nice when, as now, Wolfe gives us a direction to jump for. Everything Cassie said to Klauser has be read with the same suspicion that one reads in what the President and Chase said to each other. She's deliberately not telling Klauser the straight story. She's not even coming to him as Reis's bride. You should assume that everything she says is only half-true or sort-of true. If it seems that something she says was the whole truth, clearly stated, that should bother you. That conversation is a really bad well to draw from to prove anything. It can only confirm what you've proven elsewhere. Now back to your original jumping-off point: If Wolfe said that Cassie was going to Woldercan to find Reis, and if he wasn't pulling your leg (I would like to have the full context of his remark)

His quote doesn't require a lot of context for anyone who has read the book. He wasn't talking to me directly. He was speaking on a panel. He was talking about one of his characters that he truly loved: Cassie. In doing so, summarized AEG in terms that were not especially revealing to anyone who had read the book. Then he got to the end of the story which he described exactly as I have recorded it: "Cassie loved Bill Reis and at the end of the novel she goes to Woldercon to look for him." At last he summarized the last paragraph as being heartbreaking for him since he was saying goodbye to Cassie. There was no camera in the room, so this is the best I can do. I don't understand why you are so adamant to imply I'm an idiot or that Wolfe was trying to pull something. I was as perplexed by the statement as you seem to be. Deal with it. I'm trying to. that doesn't preclude Reis having died on the island, just as the text has it.

Sure. But the hypothesis I've offered requires the least nuance and clears up certain other problems I've had with the ending, just as I've stated. Ambassador to Woldercan is a high-profile position in a digital age. There would have been pictures and video in the media, both of which would have penetrated a magical disguise. Ambassadorships don't happen in a vacuum. Reis would have to have been a fool to even try such a ruse.

This is a ridiculous assertion. When is the last time you saw media coverage of the ambassador to England leaving for his post? Mind, the universe of AEG is not our own. More to the point, Reis would have had no need to seek Gideon's post as ambassador. He was more than wealthy enough to go to Woldercan on his own dime, even if he had any reason to go there, just as Cassie did.

Why do you assume that's the reason he would have assumed Gideon's identity? The US government wasn't going to let him leave without revealing his secret. The aliens of Takanga seemed to have a beef with him. He might have used his manufactured gold to get to Woldercon, but eventually it would have shown up as radioactive and the government would have followed him there. J. _______________________________________________

You responded with your comment about me "freely conclusion jumping".

"This is a ridiculous assertion."

There you go again.

In your first post in this AEG-tagged thread, you wrote: "So when Wolfe said this in the panel on Fictional Characters, a series of tumblers fell into place in my head. It was Bill Reise disguised as Gideon Chase who left for Woldercon at the end of AEG."

Since you quoted from the second page of the book earlier today, I assume you read it. Right on that fraking page, the president showed Gideon a talking picture, one that, from the words spoken, was evidently just such a media picture as I have postulated. The occasion was Ambassador Reis' return to Earth from Woldercan.

Another reason for the media to be covering the story of a new ambassador is the fact that the person who was ambassador at the start of the story would heve to be recalled and replaced by Gideon. The replacement of a sitting ambassador is unusual and would be sufficient occasion for media coverage.

I really don't care why Reis might have assumed Gideon's identity: I'm saying that it didn't happen,

Reis had ample wealth to get to Woldercan without resorting to bad gold, as evidenced by the diamonds he gave Cassie, the sale of which gave her the money for the big hopper.

Besides, he was presumed dead, which he was, and his body missing, as was the case for many of the thousands who died in the storm.

Isn't it possible that "going to Woldercan to find Reis" wasn't meant to be taken literally? It seems pretty easy to read that as Cassie was going to Woldercan to find love.

On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 10:40 AM, Craig Brewer <cnbrewer at yahoo.com> wrote: Has it ever been noted before that Woldercon/Woldercan is the name of the mythical city to be summoned in Finney's Circus of Dr. Lao?

James Wynn quoted and wrote: I really don't care why Reis might have assumed Gideon's identity: I'm saying that it didn't happen,

I know. But you should bother to come up with glaring evidence that it didn't happen or be able explain what is going on in the story that makes it happening unnecessary. You can't.

Reis had ample wealth to get to Woldercan without resorting to bad gold, as evidenced by the diamonds he gave Cassie, the sale of which gave her the money for the big hopper.

What???? You don't KNOW this.

Reis's bad gold is repeatedly presented as the foundation of his fortune. I could just as well assume that he was so leveraged that his empire could not survive a month without it.

Besides, he was presumed dead, which he was, and his body missing, as was the case for many of the thousands who died in the storm.

So what? You don't think the government checks out the background of people who go to Woldercon?

However, let me say this flatly: IF Wolfe had Reis go to Woldercon as Chase (and if Reis is on Woldercon that is a very likely explanation since he's the only other character presented as going there), THEN Wolfe did it for one reason -- Good story construction. It was simply more interesting at that point in the story than having Reis create a brand new identity that the reader was not familiar with.

And, since there seems to be some confusion, in Wolfe's book it is "Woldercan", not "Woldercon".

On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 4:34 PM, Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net> wrote: James Wynn quoted and wrote:

I really don't care why Reis might have assumed Gideon's identity: I'm saying that it didn't happen,

I know. But you should bother to come up with glaring evidence that it didn't happen or be able explain what is going on in the story that makes it happening unnecessary. You can't.

You've got me there: I concede that I cannot prove a negative.

Reis had ample wealth to get to Woldercan without resorting to bad gold, as evidenced by the diamonds he gave Cassie, the sale of which gave her the money for the big hopper.

What???? You don't KNOW this.

Yes, I do, and so should you.

Reis's bad gold is repeatedly presented as the foundation of his fortune. I could just as well assume that he was so leveraged that his empire could not survive a month without it.

Reis was a wealthy man before he ever went to Woldercan as President Ingstrup's ambassador. He was a contractor: "Become a contractor himself, an' was smart enough to see the big money went to them that had friends in high places."(14) "He was a major contributor to President Ingstrup's first campaign. Also to his second, though that doesn't really come into it. Major contributors are often given ambassadorships." (15-16) The added wealth he acquired from bad gold after returning to Earth was icing on the cake. Anyway, the bad gold was converted to clean assets, such as diamonds and cash. My point stands: Reis did not need to resort to somehow taking Gideon's place as the new ambassador. He had the means to buy a hopper that would get to Woldercan, just as Cassie did -- provided he was alive to do it.

Besides, he was presumed dead, which he was, and his body missing, as was the case for many of the thousands who died in the storm.

So what? You don't think the government checks out the background of people who go to Woldercon?

Oh, I do believe the government makes such checks, particularly of State Department personnel. I am even naive enough to believe that the FBI and other government agencies involved were competent enough to distinguish between the big bad man they were looking for and the smaller man who was sent to find him, with or without an amputated leg.

However, let me say this flatly: IF Wolfe had Reis go to Woldercon as Chase (and if Reis is on Woldercon that is a very likely explanation since he's the only other character presented as going there), THEN Wolfe did it for one reason -- Good story construction. It was simply more interesting at that point in the story than having Reis create a brand new identity that the reader was not familiar with.

It is the Reis-as-Ambassador Gideon Chase part I balk at. There must be another explanation for Wolfe's comment. And, since there seems to be some confusion, in Wolfe's book it is "Woldercan", not "Woldercon". -Roy _______________________________________________

And, since there seems to be some confusion, in Wolfe's book it is "Woldercan", not "Woldercon".

* Isn't it possible that "going to Woldercan to find Reis"

I have only just received my copy of the the August edition of the NYRSF, where Darrell Schweitzer reviews AEG. He comments that the President is "not recognizably a caricature of any specific president". But could he be based on LBJ?

On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 10:01 AM, James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com> wrote: I have only just received my copy of the the August edition of the NYRSF, where Darrell Schweitzer reviews AEG. He comments that the President is "not recognizably a caricature of any specific president". But could he be based on LBJ?

I don't think it's a caricature but it's pretty obviously inspired by G.W. Bush. Since it's a NY publication, perhaps Schweitzer thought he was doing the book a favor not to highlight that. J. _______________________________________________

To snip a perhaps apropos phrase from Dr. Lao's Wikipedia summary, "..the mythical city of 'Woldercan', populated by doubles of the townfolk..."

You wrote: Now that I think about it, it's not so impossible that Cassie could get her ship-board computer to figure out how to travel to the Woldercan of the past, so as to become the Mrs. Reis of that time. Through the miracles of time-travel she could even be the mother of Rian.

If so, the choice of the name "Rian" is time-looped (his mother named him, p. 277). It's also predictive, since it means "little prince" at a time when Bill was not yet a king. Cassie mourned for her children (p. 295) that she could have had with Bill. This way, she will have one. It then makes perfect sense that Cassie cannot meet Rian in person. He would recognize her. Rian is a "little too brave" (p. 26), and so is Cassie, sometimes. It would also make sense for him to have a birth defect only magic could cure, given the magic that has enhanced and un-enhanced Cassie's system.

Could she be beautiful enough again to win Bill? I think so. She knows that beauticians can do a lot for her (p. 292). Not enough to be a mega-star, but enough to woo Bill. She can tell him some sort of story, not the truth. She's a good liar. So there need not be time paradoxes. She knows it will end in divorce, but she will have a son, a piece of a man she loved and lost (p. 26). This would be a fairly happy ending, and it doesn't exclude her going back again, later in life, to be Margaret Briggs as well.

Where the hell have you been, Dave? Or is it Charles? You were missed.

Reis seems not to have had a wife when he got back to Earth, judging from his comments about the South Seas in that other picture. So his Woldercan wife must have left him while he was still on Woldercan. She may be Madame Pavlatos, who is filthy rich.

Sharon said that Rian's mother "went to Chase, and her son's just fine." I don't know how old Rian was when Gideon fixed his heart, but I would think that in a matter so important to his mother, she and Gid would have met. If so, he gives no hint that he recognized her.

After selling the diamonds, Cassie was the richest woman in the state. Rian's mother was rich and still alive. Pavlatos was filthy rich, whether or not she was also Rian's mother. Then there is poor Margaret. How did she come to be the only version not rich? Depending on Pavlatos's status, that makes three or four versions of the same woman running around on Earth at the same time. That makes any attempts to go back in time for a do-over problematic.

Depending on Pavlatos's status, that makes three or four versions of the same woman running around on Earth at the same time. That makes any attempts to go back in time for a do-over problematic. OTOH, the attempts might account for perceived differences among Reis, Rosenquist and (maybe) Rusterman. Things get very messy.

Aside from the mess, it would make hash of any timeline of ambassadors. If significant time-travel can be caused just by going to Woldercan, then Chase and Reis might well have returned to Earth as long ago or as recently as you please. The President never mentioned such a phenomenon.

At any rate, it's not possible that the location in the final paragraph, from which Cassie says "Come back to me, Wally!" is part of her original trip to Woldercan. It takes twenty-something hops to get there (p. 298). After five hops, she opens the package with the picture (p. 301). Sometime after this (at least five hops, probably more), "the sun was a yellow spark and the blue sphere of Earth less than nothing." So, about a quarter of the way to Woldercan, the sun is still a distinctly visible star. In fifteen or so more hops she gets outside the galaxy? Impossible. This is a new trip, with a lot more fuel. What is its purpose? I say it's the start of her trip back into time, to get Wally back again.

Dave Tallman wrote: Rian's age of sixteen may be part of the time-travel paradoxes of going to Woldercan and back. If Reis came back before he left -- I think he did, creating greater a greater confusion for his foes about the Reis/Rosenquist identities, then Cassie and Rian could have also. They dealt with Chase first, leading Reis to consult him. Chase plays a devious game throughout. He may have recognized Cassie and chosen to say nothing.

After selling the diamonds, Cassie was the richest woman in the state. Rian's mother was rich and still alive. Pavlatos was filthy rich, whether or not she was also Rian's mother. Then there is poor Margaret. How did she come to be the only version not rich? Depending on Pavlatos's status, that makes three or four versions of the same woman running around on Earth at the same time. That makes any attempts to go back in time for a do-over problematic.

Margaret may not be as poor as she appeared to be. She apparently never took valuables from her clients (Reis had this investigated). She needed to appear poor in order to play her role as a dresser and get close to Cassie. That's all that matters.

Roy C. Lackey wrote: So Rian was born on Woldercan? This makes my head hurt.

looking like an old woman. She goes to Woldercan and arrives some years before Reis ever got there as Klauser's replacement? Then what? She looked like crap, and Gideon and Reis were still back on Earth. Gid wasn't there to fix her looks (if it was even possible), and Reis wasn't there to father Rian on her.

My reconstruction of the time travel would go more like this: 1) Cassie's original 20+ hop trip to Woldercan involved no time-travel. She met with Gideon Chase, as planned, but learned there was no way to restore her mojo. (She might shoot him at this point). 2) Using Woldercan resources (talking fish, Woldercan natives, etc.) she finds out how to do time travel. She takes big hopper with lots of fuel and uses it to go into the past, to Earth. 3) The time is before the appointment of Bill Reis as ambassador. She finds a way to court and marry Bill. Tricky, but she knows a lot about him and what he likes.

On Sep 17, 2009, at 3:28 AM, Mo Holkar / UKG wrote: This means, though, that she would have to court and marry Bill as haggard old Cassie -- she has had no opportunity to restore her looks inbetween? Unless you postulate there are also Woldercan resources for doing that.

In fact, if we want to throw in a time loop, then Cassie can be Gideon's mother. How you like THEM apples?

THAT part is easy. That'd be "fey glamour," and it'd be basically what Gideon Chase (who, in my opinion, is a Woldercan changeling) does. I think we have much firmer evidence of this than we do of manipulable time travel.

In fact, if we want to throw in a time loop, then Cassie can be Gideon's mother. How you like THEM apples?

James Wynn wrote: That's an interesting take. But the hops could be gravitationally influenced. As one leaves the solar system and then the galaxy, the hops lengthen exponentially or as a ratio of the affecting gravity.

Dave Tallman wrote: My reconstruction of the time travel would go more like this: 1) Cassie's original 20+ hop trip to Woldercan involved no time-travel.

met with Gideon Chase, as planned, but learned there was no way to restore her mojo. (She might shoot him at this point). 2) Using Woldercan resources (talking fish, Woldercan natives, etc.) she finds out how to do time travel. She takes big hopper with lots of fuel and uses it to go into the past, to Earth. 3) The time is before the appointment of Bill Reis as ambassador. She finds a way to court and marry Bill. Tricky, but she knows a lot about him and what he likes. 4) They travel to Woldercan together. She takes the picture (p. 301), which explains why she isn't in it. Bill says the old amabassador was kind to him and his wife (not family), so there is no son yet.

5) Rian is conceived. When the boy is born there are medical troubles. Cassie knows they can only be resolved on Earth, so she leaves. She uses the time-travel trick again. Rian will be the right age if she does this, and that may be the purpose (time-looped history reconstruction). Her time-travel will inspire Bill to learn to do the same trick.

6) She spends the next 18 or so years raising Rian. The boy is her life.

she's Pavlatos, she also remarries and does some boating, etc. 7) This gets her to about ago 50. Rian is gone -- empty nest. Maybe he dies, killed by Bill's enemies. 8) She broods again on the past and decides to try to shake it up as Margaret. She gets the old ship back from where-ever she stashed it and does one more trip deeper into the past. 9) She uses another ten years to establish herself as Margaret the dresser. Now she's in her 60's.

10) Her attempt to change the past fails, so she ends up sad and alone.

knows her younger self will repeat the cycle.

Craig Brewer wrote: Has it ever been noted before that Woldercon/Woldercan is the name of the mythical city to be summoned in Finney's Circus of Dr. Lao?

On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 2:30 AM, Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net> wrote: In the Urth Cycle and FREE LIVE FREE, Wolfe made provisions to avoid two versions of the same person being in the same place at the same time. To do otherwise leads to endless plot complications and paradoxes. Why would he make an exception in AEG?

-Roy _______________________________________________

Roy C. Lackey wrote: That picture would have been just 11-12 years in the past for Klauser. He should have recognized the woman who came to his house to ask advice.

If Cassie could travel back in time, why didn't she go back in time just far enough to do something to avoid Bill getting clubbed to death? All she had to do was to make sure they would not be on the island that night. That's so easy, and it would have spared them all their grief. Just go back about a year. She lands her big fancy new hopper on the beach on the island where she and Bill went to be alone, the one they were on when they decided to get married. Whip out a sales receipt for the diamonds and a few newscast clips of the coming storm. She could hardly be ignored.

Why didn't Reis recognize her as his ex-wife? Yeah, she's aged, but still.

Either the past can be changed or it can't. If Margaret was ever our Cassie, then she has Cassie's memories of Margaret, just as we have their interactions recorded in the book. If, from Margaret's perspective, she can change anything, even something as minor as what she ordered for breakfast on page 153, then the past can be changed. If not, she is stuck in a time loop.

In the Urth Cycle and FREE LIVE FREE, Wolfe made provisions to avoid two versions of the same person being in the same place at the same time. To do otherwise leads to endless plot complications and paradoxes. Why would he make an exception in AEG?

John Watkins quoted and wrote: In the Urth Cycle and FREE LIVE FREE, Wolfe made provisions to avoid two versions of the same person being in the same place at the same time. To do otherwise leads to endless plot complications and paradoxes. Why would he make an exception in AEG?

Not to go down the rabbit hole, but after Pirate Freedom, I have a tough time buying this particular point.

Dave Tallman wrote: She could have considered doing that, but it might not have saved them from other dooms arranged by Gideon Chase. She seems to have decided that he needed to be eliminated very early on (after enhancing Cassie, of course). This is under the theory that Margaret was Chase's shooter.

Why didn't Reis recognize her as his ex-wife? Yeah, she's aged, but still.

Again I'll fall back on werewolf shape-shifting. I have no doubt that Margaret is a werewolf.

On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 2:33 PM, Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net> wrote: John Watkins quoted and wrote:

In the Urth Cycle and FREE LIVE FREE, Wolfe made provisions to avoid two versions of the same person being in the same place at the same time.

To do otherwise leads to endless plot complications and paradoxes. Why would he make an exception in AEG?

Not to go down the rabbit hole, but after Pirate Freedom, I have a tough time buying this particular point.

Point taken. -Roy _______________________________________________

Roy C. Lackey wrote: / She could have considered doing that, but it might not have saved them />/ from other dooms arranged by Gideon Chase. She seems to have decided />/ that he needed to be eliminated very early on (after enhancing Cassie, />/ of course). This is under the theory that Margaret was Chase's shooter.

/ I'm sure I've said this before, but Gid repeatedly referred to the shooter with masculine pronouns.

Gid also said that it is easy for a shape-changer to slip back "down", so easy that "werewolves have trouble maintaining their human forms at times." (100) Getting hit in the face with a meat cleaver is pretty traumatic, quite enough so, it seems to me, to lose control. Besides, within a couple hours of the shooting, Margaret showed up at Cassie's place and had no visible wound.

Dave Tallman quoted and wrote: I'm sure I've said this before, but Gid repeatedly referred to the shooter with masculine pronouns.

I'm not sure how good a look Gid got. Also, isn't Wolfe of the old school on pronouns? He doesn't go in for the "him or her" stuff much.

If the shooter is anyone we know or see later (and it should be, to be a fair mystery), then they should either have an injured face or be of a type of creature known to regenerate rapidly. Werewolves in legend can heal rapidly from any wounds not made with silver weapons. We never see anyone with an injured face. So the shooter is someone we never see again (unfair) or Margaret.

Roy C. Lackey wrote: I don't know what the answer is, but Gid said the shooter was a man. He could be lying, but why? Transformation "up" or "down" is mentioned, but not sideways. That is, there is nothing to indicate that a human could transform himself (see, old-school pronoun) to look like another human, even of the same gender.

Margaret might be a werewolf but, shooter or not, if she is, where does it show up in the story? The only demonstrable werewolf I know of is Al, the fake FBI agent.

On Sep 19, 2009, at 3:16 PM, Dave Tallman wrote: Margaret always has yogurt and fruit for breakfast (p. 186). She may avoid eating meat to keep from setting off her wolf nature.

Dave Tallman quoted and wrote: Margaret might be a werewolf but, shooter or not, if she is, where does it show up in the story? The only demonstrable werewolf I know of is Al, the fake FBI agent.

True, but the detailed description of werewolf traits on p. 206 invites us to find another werewolf. Here are a few of the clues I found most convincing, drawn from one of my theory pages on the WolfeWiki ("Mysterious Margaret"): 1. There's the clue of the werewolf's "swift loping walk, even in women." (p. 206). Margaret bobs along (p. 59). Does any other female character have a unique walk described?

2. She is gray (p. 54) with a colorless face (p. 57). Werewolves "dress in wolf shades: gray, black, and white." (p. 206). 3. They are also insensitive to color (p. 206). Margaret fails to get a straw for Cassie's drink (p. 57), indicating she doesn't care much about lipstick. She describes a costume which shows skin in the middle as "spring-green" (p. 107), but the costume that is spring-green is the long missionary gown (p. 190). The costume that shows ten inches of bare waist features a faux-grass skirt (p. 131). This would be grass-green, not spring-green. Perhaps Margaret can't tell the difference. 4. She avoids an obvious word when misreporting the name of Sharon Bench as "Shirley Ladydog" (p. 86). As a werewolf female she might be extra-sensitive to this word.

5. Werewolves have a hard time avoiding slipping back to wolf form (p. 100). They also "want the wild and a liberation from human morality" (p. 207). Margaret's scrupulous morality may be an effort to avoid slipping back. Her elaborate trick with the napkin to avoid a direct lie is an example of this (pp. 82-83).

6. Margaret always has yogurt and fruit for breakfast (p. 186). She may avoid eating meat to keep from setting off her wolf nature.

Roy C. Lackey wrote: If Margaret is a future Cassie, then she knows perfectly well both of Sharon's names. Why stumble on Sharon? Like Mrs. Baker in FLF, she just gets things wrong. She called a safe-deposit box a "safety deposit." (153)

The known werewolf, Al, had a very agressive human personality. Margaret is meek and mild.

Post-castaway Cassie said, "I don't think I'll ever eat fish or fruit again." (288) Margaret could have eaten cereal. And she at least nibbled on a ham and cheese sandwich. (141-42)

On Sep 21, 2009, at 11:10 AM, Dave Tallman wrote: In any case, she could easily get over her fruit aversion after a reasonable period of time (just as she is shown to have gotten over her fish aversion) so it's no bar to her being Margaret.

Adam Thornton wrote: Anyone else here read The Rise of Endymion ? Those of you who have will know why the time-loop is making me think of it.

On Sep 21, 2009, at 2:22 PM, Dave Tallman wrote: Adam Thornton wrote:

Anyone else here read The Rise of Endymion ? Those of you who have will know why the time-loop is making me think of it.

Yes, I've read it. The protagonist, Raul, is ...

Roy C. Lackey wrote: "Ebony bobbed like a cork in India's wake." (p. 143) That matches up nicely with your ". . . and Margaret bobbing in her wake" on p. 59.

A few days ago, John Watkins, agreeing with James Wy[nn] about a quality of the president in AEG, wrote:

I thought the character's speech patterns were recognizably those of George W. Bush as well.

The speech pattern is recognizably Texan, but the one-on-one button-holing is much more LBJ's style than any recent US president. For me, the key discriminant is the President's assistant. I think I mentioned awhile ago that the aide likely has a link with MPAA president Jack Valenti who was LBJ's closest aide.

Dave Tallman wrote: Roy C. Lackey wrote:

"Ebony bobbed like a cork in India's wake." (p. 143) That matches up nicely with your ". . . and Margaret bobbing in her wake" on p. 59.

It appears that Ebony White is another good werewolf candidate. Look at her name: werewolves are associated with the colors gray, black, and white (p. 206) and her name is as black-and-white as you can get. She bobs along like Margaret, so we have the loping walk. She never gets fat (p. 59), possibly a sign of a high animal metabolism. She eats terrine de lievre (terrine of hare) on that same page. Other food choices include a BLT (p. 141, has bacon), and a breakfast with a side of sausage and ham (p. 186, shades of the Three Little Pigs?).

Roy C. Lackey wrote: She eats some form of pork at almost every meal mentioned, if not all. So how can she eat meat all the time, unlike Margaret, if they are both werewolves? You said before that werewolf Margaret didn't eat meat because she feared slipping to the animal state.