{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5484", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5484, "subject": "Wolfe at Dragon*Con (AEG)", "messages": 66, "voices": 15, "first": "2009-09-09T14:40:20+00:00", "last": "2009-10-01T06:15:56+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<525AA15A5C4C4ECB9661CA5B33636DEF@usa513ef87f031>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-09-09T14:40:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe at Dragon*Con (AEG)", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Here's some AEG grist for the mill. Wolfe talked about how much he enjoyed \nCassie in \"An Evil Guest\". This is how he described the end of the novel: \n\"Cassie loved Bill Riese and at the end of the novel she goes to Woldercon \nto look for him.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Look, maybe this has already been said, but don't recall it. I thought I'd \nsurely get a reaction on this quote so I'm going up the ante. For reasons, \nthat would be compelling only to me, the death of Bill Reise at the end of \nAEG really sat wrong with me. It struck me as totally random. But if the \nperson killed on the island were Gideon Chase in disguise, it makes \nperfectly good sense. Also, Bill Reise avowing his love for Cassie at his \ndeath seemed so out-of-character.\n\nSo when Wolfe said this in the panel on Fictional Characters, a series of \ntumblers fell into place in my head. It was Bill Reise disguised as Gideon \nChase who left for Woldercon at the end of AEG. Cassie didn't go to \nWoldercon merely to get her mojo back (although she would probably need to \nin order to win Reise).\n\nI'm not prepared to prove it is so, but I really *really* makes sense that \nit would be that way.\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<8F2D8446-7250-479B-96F5-7CA61D58092A@goosemoon.org>", "from": { "name": "Allan Anderson", "address": "rubel at goosemoon.org" }, "date": "2009-09-09T14:47:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe at Dragon*Con (AEG)", "in_reply_to": "<525AA15A5C4C4ECB9661CA5B33636DEF@usa513ef87f031>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah, that *does* help me shed a bit of the \"wtf\" feeling that came over \nme at the end of my non-analytic reading of AEG. There are certainly \nother explanations, but this one is very interesting.\n\nMuch like the rest of your details of your con experience! Thank you \nfor relating them to us." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Sep 9, 2009, at 7:40 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nHere's some AEG grist for the mill. Wolfe talked about how much he \nenjoyed Cassie in \"An Evil Guest\". This is how he described the end \nof the novel: \"Cassie loved Bill Riese and at the end of the novel \nshe goes to Woldercon to look for him.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Look, maybe this has already been said, but don't recall it. I \nthought I'd surely get a reaction on this quote so I'm going up the \nante. For reasons, that would be compelling only to me, the death of \nBill Reise at the end of AEG really sat wrong with me. It struck me \nas totally random. But if the person killed on the island were \nGideon Chase in disguise, it makes perfectly good sense. Also, Bill \nReise avowing his love for Cassie at his death seemed so out-of- \ncharacter.\n\nSo when Wolfe said this in the panel on Fictional Characters, a \nseries of tumblers fell into place in my head. It was Bill Reise \ndisguised as Gideon Chase who left for Woldercon at the end of AEG. \nCassie didn't go to Woldercon merely to get her mojo back (although \nshe would probably need to in order to win Reise).\n\nI'm not prepared to prove it is so, but I really *really* makes \nsense that it would be that way.\n\nJ.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<0040E1D419D24153A21A274C08C24288@usa513ef87f031>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-09-09T16:41:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe at Dragon*Con (AEG)", "in_reply_to": "<8F2D8446-7250-479B-96F5-7CA61D58092A@goosemoon.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wolfe said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Here's some AEG grist for the mill. Wolfe talked about how much he \nenjoyed Cassie in \"An Evil Guest\". This is how he described the end of \nthe novel: \"Cassie loved Bill Riese and at the end of the novel she \ngoes to Woldercon to look for him.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "if the person killed on the island were Gideon Chase in disguise, it \nmakes perfectly good sense.\n[snip] It was Bill Reise disguised as Gideon Chase who left for Woldercon \nat the end of AEG. I'm not prepared to prove it is so, but I really \n*really* makes sense that it would be that way." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Allan Anderson said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ah, that *does* help me shed a bit of the \"wtf\" feeling that came over me \nat the end of my non-analytic reading of AEG. There are certainly other \nexplanations, but this one is very interesting." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'll have to re-read AEG with this in mind, but if Chase is running around \ndisguised as Reise in order to earn his gold and to get close to Cassie, \nthen it could be that this would help resolve some of the sense that Wally \nand Bill Reise are different people.\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<002101ca31a3$dd374e60$44d14a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2009-09-09T23:18:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe at Dragon*Con (AEG)", "in_reply_to": "<525AA15A5C4C4ECB9661CA5B33636DEF@usa513ef87f031>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nLook, maybe this has already been said, but don't recall it. I thought I'd\nsurely get a reaction on this quote so I'm going up the ante. For reasons,\nthat would be compelling only to me, the death of Bill Reise at the end of\nAEG really sat wrong with me. It struck me as totally random. But if the\nperson killed on the island were Gideon Chase in disguise, it makes\nperfectly good sense. Also, Bill Reise avowing his love for Cassie at his\ndeath seemed so out-of-character.\n\nSo when Wolfe said this in the panel on Fictional Characters, a series of\ntumblers fell into place in my head. It was Bill Reise disguised as Gideon\nChase who left for Woldercon at the end of AEG. Cassie didn't go to\nWoldercon merely to get her mojo back (although she would probably need to\nin order to win Reise)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Reis was a big man; Gideon was not. A conventional disguise or one that\ninvolves a \"glamour\", to say nothing of shape shifting, would have to\naccount for Gid's missing leg. Shape shifting involves a certain\nconservation of mass, such that the subject will weigh the same after the\ntransformation as before.\n\nCassie told Klauser that Reis was dead, and at the end of the book, when\nthere was no one to hear her and she was on the way to Woldercan, she\nbemoaned his death. Who was she fooling?\n\nShe had been in perfect position to see the body that had been clubbed to\ndeath, and she had been forced to watch. Shape-changers and glamour-casters\nlose control at death. Who did Cassie--and more importantly the\nislanders--see dead at her feet, if not Bill Reis? I don't think it is\npossible for it to have been one-legged Gideon Chase.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<909119bc0909091629h18e1a18bh645f3bacbec2457e@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Allan Anderson", "address": "rubel at goosemoon.org" }, "date": "2009-09-09T23:29:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe at Dragon*Con (AEG)", "in_reply_to": "<002101ca31a3$dd374e60$44d14a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hmm -- isn't there some stuff about time progressing at a different rate on\nWoldercan? Letters arriving before they're sent, etc. Maybe Wolfe meant\nshe's trying to find a past Reis. Just a random idea." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 4:18 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nJames Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Look, maybe this has already been said, but don't recall it. I thought\nI'd\nsurely get a reaction on this quote so I'm going up the ante. For\nreasons,\nthat would be compelling only to me, the death of Bill Reise at the end\nof\nAEG really sat wrong with me. It struck me as totally random. But if the\nperson killed on the island were Gideon Chase in disguise, it makes\nperfectly good sense. Also, Bill Reise avowing his love for Cassie at his\ndeath seemed so out-of-character.\n\nSo when Wolfe said this in the panel on Fictional Characters, a series of\ntumblers fell into place in my head. It was Bill Reise disguised as\nGideon\nChase who left for Woldercon at the end of AEG. Cassie didn't go to\nWoldercon merely to get her mojo back (although she would probably need\nto\nin order to win Reise)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Reis was a big man; Gideon was not. A conventional disguise or one that\ninvolves a \"glamour\", to say nothing of shape shifting, would have to\naccount for Gid's missing leg. Shape shifting involves a certain\nconservation of mass, such that the subject will weigh the same after the\ntransformation as before.\n\nCassie told Klauser that Reis was dead, and at the end of the book, when\nthere was no one to hear her and she was on the way to Woldercan, she\nbemoaned his death. Who was she fooling?\n\nShe had been in perfect position to see the body that had been clubbed to\ndeath, and she had been forced to watch. Shape-changers and glamour-casters\nlose control at death. Who did Cassie--and more importantly the\nislanders--see dead at her feet, if not Bill Reis? I don't think it is\npossible for it to have been one-legged Gideon Chase.\n\n-Roy\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0909091732v5fac2842q7473b8629d56f1d4@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-09-10T00:32:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe at Dragon*Con (AEG)", "in_reply_to": "<909119bc0909091629h18e1a18bh645f3bacbec2457e@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good thing Wolfe didn't leave too many possible options, eh? Time travel,\nshapeshifters, \"glamours\" that alter appearances, gods who look like people,\nphysical alteration by Cthulhu, and of course the old standby, clones.\n\nI feel confident that there's something more than goofy pastiche fun going\non with An Evil Guest, but I don't know what it is. It works as goofy\npastiche fun anyway." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 7:29 PM, Allan Anderson wrote:\nHmm -- isn't there some stuff about time progressing at a different rate on\nWoldercan? Letters arriving before they're sent, etc. Maybe Wolfe meant\nshe's trying to find a past Reis. Just a random idea.\n\n\nOn Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 4:18 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Look, maybe this has already been said, but don't recall it. I thought\nI'd\nsurely get a reaction on this quote so I'm going up the ante. For\nreasons,\nthat would be compelling only to me, the death of Bill Reise at the end\nof\nAEG really sat wrong with me. It struck me as totally random. But if the\nperson killed on the island were Gideon Chase in disguise, it makes\nperfectly good sense. Also, Bill Reise avowing his love for Cassie at\nhis\ndeath seemed so out-of-character.\n\nSo when Wolfe said this in the panel on Fictional Characters, a series\nof\ntumblers fell into place in my head. It was Bill Reise disguised as\nGideon\nChase who left for Woldercon at the end of AEG. Cassie didn't go to\nWoldercon merely to get her mojo back (although she would probably need\nto\nin order to win Reise)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Reis was a big man; Gideon was not. A conventional disguise or one that\ninvolves a \"glamour\", to say nothing of shape shifting, would have to\naccount for Gid's missing leg. Shape shifting involves a certain\nconservation of mass, such that the subject will weigh the same after the\ntransformation as before.\n\nCassie told Klauser that Reis was dead, and at the end of the book, when\nthere was no one to hear her and she was on the way to Woldercan, she\nbemoaned his death. Who was she fooling?\n\nShe had been in perfect position to see the body that had been clubbed to\ndeath, and she had been forced to watch. Shape-changers and\nglamour-casters\nlose control at death. Who did Cassie--and more importantly the\nislanders--see dead at her feet, if not Bill Reis? I don't think it is\npossible for it to have been one-legged Gideon Chase.\n\n-Roy\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<404CAFC2D7024BBD81C7C08DB054519C@usa513ef87f031>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-09-10T01:09:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe at Dragon*Con (AEG)", "in_reply_to": "<002101ca31a3$dd374e60$44d14a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Roy says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Reis was a big man; Gideon was not. A conventional disguise or one that\ninvolves a \"glamour\", to say nothing of shape shifting, would have to\naccount for Gid's missing leg." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I haven't started re-reading so I don't know if anyone mentioned whether the \nGideon Chase who went to Woldercon had one or two legs. Few people knew he \nhad lost it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Shape shifting involves a certain\nconservation of mass, such that the subject will weigh the same after the\ntransformation as before." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You have me at a disadvantage. I'm not an expert on the limits of Gideon's \nnor Reis's ability to shape-shift. However, a prosthetic leg that looks \nrealistic on a guy in pants is neither magic nor speculative fiction." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Cassie told Klauser that Reis was dead, and at the end of the book, when\nthere was no one to hear her and she was on the way to Woldercan, she\nbemoaned his death. Who was she fooling?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It was you who first pointed out that Reis seemed to be more than one. Which \nReis are we talking about? It's true she says \"Bill...why did you have to \ndie\" but then she says \"Come back to me Wally!\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "She had been in perfect position to see the body that had been clubbed to\ndeath, and she had been forced to watch.\nShape-changers and glamour-casters\nlose control at death." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Do they? I can't do it and so I don't know much about it. In any case, the \nnatives did not have long to study the body before Cassie smoked the king, \nand was carried away by the bat things." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Who did Cassie--and more importantly the\nislanders--see dead at her feet, if not Bill Reis?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wolfe said Cassie went to Woldercon to find Reis.\nIf he didn't die on the island, then obviously Cassie knew it. Why wouldn't \nshe? Since Cassie was swept away immediately after killing the king, we \ncannot know what happened among the natives afterward." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think it is\npossible for it to have been one-legged Gideon Chase." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You are freely conclusion jumping. I don't see how you found your way to be \nso emphatically sure about all this based on what you have offered here.\n\nLook, Roy, Reis and Cassie were about to be married. But Bill Reis --who \nloved Cassie as much for the way she adorned himself as anything else-- \ncould not arrange to have either his oldest friend there nor his own son to \nwatch the big event. He was practically eloping with her. Does that seem \nlikely? Why would he do that? The whole thing stinks. On the other hand, why \nwould Chase disguised as Reis do that? Lots of reasons.\n\nI guess there are other explanations too. But, remember how you mentioned \nthat it is suspicious that we never meet Reis's son? Well how much weirder \nthat we never see Chase again either....the Pygmalion to Cassie's Galatea. \nBy the way...Pygmalion *did* marry Galatea, no one else.\n\nI'm sure there are plenty of adequate explanations for Wolfe's assertion \nthat Cassie went to Woldercon to find Bill Reis. I'll have to re-read it. \nBut it fits like much else does not. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<006401ca31d8$1b9188e0$83d04a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2009-09-10T05:32:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe at Dragon*Con (AEG)", "in_reply_to": "<404CAFC2D7024BBD81C7C08DB054519C@usa513ef87f031>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn quoted and wrote:\nShape shifting involves a certain\nconservation of mass, such that the subject will weigh the same after\nthe\ntransformation as before." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You have me at a disadvantage. I'm not an expert on the limits of Gideon's\nnor Reis's ability to shape-shift. However, a prosthetic leg that looks\nrealistic on a guy in pants is neither magic nor speculative fiction." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gid claimed not to be able either to shape-shift or do the \"vanishing\"\ntrick. (Yeah, yeah, he could have lied.) It was he who explained to Cassie\nwhy the wolf that got Scott was so big: the man who became the wolf was a\nbig man. It was also he who said that when a human transformed into an\nanimal, the animal would have the same weight as the human. That's why it\nmatters that Reis was a big man and Gid was not, and Gid was a leg shy of\nhis normal weight.\n\nWhen Reis was clubbed to death, he kept trying the vanishing trick." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Cassie told Klauser that Reis was dead, and at the end of the book, when\nthere was no one to hear her and she was on the way to Woldercan, she\nbemoaned his death. Who was she fooling?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It was you who first pointed out that Reis seemed to be more than one." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Which" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Reis are we talking about? It's true she says \"Bill...why did you have to\ndie\" but then she says \"Come back to me Wally!\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I mean the Reis who was clubbed to death at her feet." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "She had been in perfect position to see the body that had been clubbed\nto\ndeath, and she had been forced to watch.\nShape-changers and glamour-casters\nlose control at death." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Do they? I can't do it and so I don't know much about it. In any case, the\nnatives did not have long to study the body before Cassie smoked the king,\nand was carried away by the bat things." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In every werewolf movie I have seen, when the wolf shape dies, the body\nreverts to the man shape." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Who did Cassie--and more importantly the\nislanders--see dead at her feet, if not Bill Reis?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wolfe said Cassie went to Woldercon to find Reis.\nIf he didn't die on the island, then obviously Cassie knew it. Why\nwouldn't\nshe? Since Cassie was swept away immediately after killing the king, we\ncannot know what happened among the natives afterward." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't think it is\npossible for it to have been one-legged Gideon Chase." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You are freely conclusion jumping. I don't see how you found your way to\nbe\nso emphatically sure about all this based on what you have offered here." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "*I* jump to conclusions?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Look, Roy, Reis and Cassie were about to be married. But Bill Reis --who\nloved Cassie as much for the way she adorned himself as anything else--\ncould not arrange to have either his oldest friend there nor his own son\nto\nwatch the big event." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Huh? Where did you get that idea? Reis told Cassie that he wanted Rian there\n(p-276-77). Klauser received a wedding invitation (295), but was too ill to\nattend (278)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He was practically eloping with her. Does that seem\nlikely? Why would he do that? The whole thing stinks." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Cassie is the one who wanted a simple ceremony (275). Even so, it was to be\nheld on the grounds of the New Zealand consulate (278), with her friends\nflown in and \"hundreds\" of islanders in attendance (276)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On the other hand, why\nwould Chase disguised as Reis do that? Lots of reasons." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think he did.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2177E1EEE5A94884A09ECD8B0ACB9DB0@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-09-10T13:30:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe at Dragon*Con (AEG)", "in_reply_to": "<006401ca31d8$1b9188e0$83d04a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the man who became the wolf was a\nbig man." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's why it\nmatters that Reis was a big man and Gid was not, and Gid was a leg shy of\nhis normal weight." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Making yourself look bigger and making yourself smaller are not the same \nproblem. Nor is glamour the same as shape-shifting. I don't see how this \nis going to be key to determining whether someone had supplanted Reis." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You are freely conclusion jumping. I don't see how you found your way to\nbe so emphatically sure about all this based on what you have offered \nhere." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "*I* jump to conclusions?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You do it as much as anyone (including me) when attempting to explain a \ndiscrepancy...in other words, when it suits you. But let's give jumping to \nconclusions its due. It's better than ad hominem responses." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Look, Roy, Reis and Cassie were about to be married. But Bill Reis --who\nloved Cassie as much for the way she adorned himself as anything else--\ncould not arrange to have either his oldest friend there nor his own son\nto watch the big event." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Huh? Where did you get that idea? Reis told Cassie that he wanted Rian \nthere\n(p-276-77). Klauser received a wedding invitation (295), but was too ill \nto\nattend (278)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. He SAID he wanted Rian there. He SAID he wanted his life-long best \nfriend there. But this man with all his money and power couldn't arrange to \nhave the ceremony when and where those close to him could attend?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "He was practically eloping with her. Does that seem\nlikely? Why would he do that? The whole thing stinks." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Cassie is the one who wanted a simple ceremony (275)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But they weren't going to have one were they?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Even so, it was to be\nheld on the grounds of the New Zealand consulate (278), with her friends\nflown in and \"hundreds\" of islanders in attendance (276)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. HER friends and hundreds of islanders.\nEven with page number references, this is averting my point. I have never \nsaid there is a problem with CASSIE'S behavior regarding the wedding. MY \ngoal is not to out-maneuver a debate-opponent. I'm merely pointing out \nthings that seemed off to me about the end. Some of which you have pointed \nout yourself as I said in my last response.\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<001d01ca3245$d9c6d820$ddce4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2009-09-10T18:38:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe at Dragon*Con (AEG)", "in_reply_to": "<2177E1EEE5A94884A09ECD8B0ACB9DB0@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nLook, Roy, Reis and Cassie were about to be married. But Bill\nReis --who\nloved Cassie as much for the way she adorned himself as anything else--\ncould not arrange to have either his oldest friend there nor his own\nson\nto watch the big event." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Huh? Where did you get that idea? Reis told Cassie that he wanted Rian\nthere\n(p-276-77). Klauser received a wedding invitation (295), but was too ill\nto\nattend (278)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes. He SAID he wanted Rian there. He SAID he wanted his life-long best\nfriend there. But this man with all his money and power couldn't arrange\nto\nhave the ceremony when and where those close to him could attend?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Rian planned to attend (277). Klauser could not have attended, no matter\nwhere the wedding was held, for health reasons. Reis could not have had the\nceremony just anywhere, not if he wanted the wedding to conform to his dream\nof making Cassie his island queen. That is what the play was all about.\n\nFor some reason, you want Reis *not* to have died on the island. I can only\nassume that you suggest Gideon died in his stead because Gid is the only\nviable alternative. I don't think it was even possible for Gid to have taken\nReis' place, even if he had wanted to, for the reasons I have given. All\nthis stuff about the wedding is just your attempt to make it seem that the\nman Cassie was about to marry was not Bill Reis.\n\nNeither do I think it likely that Reis, posing as Gideon Chase, was\nappointed by the sitting president as U.S. ambassador to Woldercan. No\nmatter how good Reis may have been at shape-shifting, there is still the\nmass-conversion angle to account for. As for just altering one's appearance,\nas Gid did to become Gil Corby, it doesn't fool mirrors (196) or cameras\n(189, 194). The wedding invitation Klauser received came with pictures to be\ndisplayed on a computer that showed Cassie and Reis kissing (295). I dare\nsay Klauser knew Reis when he saw him.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-09-10T21:11:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe at Dragon*Con (AEG)", "in_reply_to": "<001d01ca3245$d9c6d820$ddce4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Rian planned to attend (277)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, we'll see. I'm beginning to find the existence of Rian (as an actual \nson anyway) to be pretty suspect. As we agree, there is a serious problem \nwith his failure to make an actual entrance in the story. This is especially \ntrue for a Wolfe novel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Klauser could not have attended, no matter\nwhere the wedding was held, for health reasons." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Um...that's what Reis says. If it *was* Reis. If it wasn't Reis then it was \njust a convenient excuse." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Reis could not have had the\nceremony just anywhere, not if he wanted the wedding to conform to his \ndream\nof making Cassie his island queen. That is what the play was all about." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Obviously, this is not true. Cassie was not married to Reis when the \nislanders killed him, but they were happy to have her be queen afterwards \nwith any suitor she chose. [p 284]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "For some reason, you want Reis *not* to have died on the island." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's absurd. Well, now that I think about it, I did hear the author of the \nstory very strongly imply that he didn't die on the island. I'd like to \nbelieve the author, so maybe I do. Also, I do find the ending to be pretty \nweird, narratively, so I'd like to see that resolved. I guess you are right \nindirectly, but these are my mysterious reasons.\n\nCassie *does* confirm to Klauser that Reis is dead. [p 296] On the other \nhand, she confirms that she is dead at the same time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I can only\nassume that you suggest Gideon died in his stead because Gid is the only\nviable alternative." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not at all. It could have been Rian, right? We've had Reis claim not be \nplaces where he was unmistakably seen. It could have been one of those \nimposters. If Reis were being impersonated at his execution, the wizard is a \nlogical candidate for many, many reasons of theme and foreshadowing; one of \nwhich I have already mentioned. But most compellingly, Chase is a logical \ncandidate because he is one of the three central characters --the character \nwhose POV started the novel-- and he precipitously dropped off the pages \nafter Cassie went to Takanga. She has a conversation with him on the phone, \nand then he's just someone the characters talk about. Finally, after \neverything we know about his feelings for Cassie, is it credible that he \nwould just finagle an appointment to Woldercon and leave her behind? Chase \nis a very large part that is still sitting on the concrete after the engine \nhas been put back together. He's not the only viable candidate, but he's a \nlogical one.\n\nIncidentally, I've never heard Wolfe use the name Gideon Chase when he talks \nabout AEG. He always refers to him as \"a wizard\". I don't know what that \nmeans if anything." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "All\nthis stuff about the wedding is just your attempt to make it seem\nthat the man Cassie was about to marry was not Bill Reis." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's almost the opposite. In fact, though, the truth is on an entirely \ndifferent plane and trajectory. Perhaps if you could get it out of your head \nthat I'm running some scam with a hidden agenda, you could address these \nissues in a more objective, less knee-jerk hostile fashion. Paranoia will \ndestroya." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Neither do I think it likely that Reis, posing as Gideon Chase, was\nappointed by the sitting president as U.S. ambassador to Woldercan. No\nmatter how good Reis may have been at shape-shifting, there is still the\nmass-conversion angle to account for. As for just altering one's \nappearance,\nas Gid did to become Gil Corby, it doesn't fool mirrors (196) or cameras\n(189, 194). The wedding invitation Klauser received came with pictures to \nbe\ndisplayed on a computer that showed Cassie and Reis kissing (295). I dare\nsay Klauser knew Reis when he saw him." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Shape-shifting is unnecessary, but a perfect impersonation is also \nunnecessary. The Woldercon appointment was probably in lieu of the $50 \nmillion Chase was owed. I saw nothing in the President's face-to-face with \nChase that made me think he would want to repeat it. The wedding invitation \nKlauser received was not of the wedding. It might well have been sent by the \n\"real Reis\" (whatever that means).\n\nAny magic trick requires controlling what the audience sees. Gil Corby \nworked with scores of actors for weeks in tight quarters without anyone \ngetting wise. Having anyone, anyone at all, impersonate Chase and go to \nWoldercon given the available tools is so easy that it wouldn't even make \ninteresting story-telling. It'd be like explaining how VRT convinced \neveryone he was Marsch and got to St. Croix, or how Quetzel become \nprolocutor.\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<44fb53d10909101432w1a1a2d86gafd5cb0bf2a96cba@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-09-10T21:32:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe at Dragon*Con (AEG)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 5:11 PM, James Wynn wrote:\n\nIncidentally, I've never heard Wolfe use the name Gideon Chase when he talks\nabout AEG. He always refers to him as \"a wizard\". I don't know what that\nmeans if anything." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've heard Wolfe call him Gideon Chase. He may have said he was a hero\nat the same time - he certainly said Reis was, for all his good\npoints, a villain.\n\n-Matt" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-09-11T15:43:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe at Dragon*Con (Other stuff I've remembered)", "in_reply_to": "<001d01ca3245$d9c6d820$ddce4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wolfe said that \"Shadow of the Torturer\" had a really good cover because the \npublisher didn't expect much from it. As more success was expected from each \nvolume, the art director got more and more involved and, therefore, the \ncovers got worse and worse.\n--------------------\nBefore Wolfe's first panel on Saturday, I stepped up and re-introduced \nmyself from WindyCon (I ate lunch with him and, as a friend reminds me, gave \nhim my ice). He said \"Oh! I remember you. I remember that grin. You have a \nvery memorable grin.\" Then I got him to sign my copy of \"Innocents Aboard\". \nI told him that I *loved* that collection (which is absolutely true). I \nasked him about the ending to \"The Sailor That Followed the Sun\". In the \nstory, he claimed that the \"ordinary looking star\" was the only one in the \nBook of Am Tuat but the pictures in W.A. Budge's explanation of that book \nhave them all over the place. I told him I thought he was absolutely right \nto have the star be the sun since it probably designates astronomical \nentities that are on the ecliptic. But I didn't understand why he said it \nwas the only one in the book. His reaction was \"Hmmm...I thought it was the \nonly one there.\"\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<002801ca32fb$a4a77b20$05d04a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2009-09-11T16:19:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe at Dragon*Con (AEG)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn quoted and wrote:\nRian planned to attend (277)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, we'll see. I'm beginning to find the existence of Rian (as an actual\nson anyway) to be pretty suspect. As we agree, there is a serious problem\nwith his failure to make an actual entrance in the story. This is\nespecially\ntrue for a Wolfe novel." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Months after Reis was killed, Cassie had to call Rian to tell him his father\nwas dead (296).\n\n{big snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Neither do I think it likely that Reis, posing as Gideon Chase, was\nappointed by the sitting president as U.S. ambassador to Woldercan. No\nmatter how good Reis may have been at shape-shifting, there is still the\nmass-conversion angle to account for. As for just altering one's\nappearance,\nas Gid did to become Gil Corby, it doesn't fool mirrors (196) or cameras\n(189, 194). The wedding invitation Klauser received came with pictures\nto\nbe\ndisplayed on a computer that showed Cassie and Reis kissing (295). I\ndare\nsay Klauser knew Reis when he saw him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Shape-shifting is unnecessary, but a perfect impersonation is also\nunnecessary. The Woldercon appointment was probably in lieu of the $50\nmillion Chase was owed. I saw nothing in the President's face-to-face with\nChase that made me think he would want to repeat it. The wedding\ninvitation\nKlauser received was not of the wedding. It might well have been sent by\nthe\n\"real Reis\" (whatever that means)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You are missing the point. I have given you text-based reasons why the man\nwho was killed at Cassie's feet was probably not Gideon, and practical\nreasons why it is *very* unlikely that Bill Reis could have impersonated Gid\nwell enough to usurp the appointment as ambassador to Woldercan. Ambassador\nto Woldercan is a high-profile position in a digital age. There would have\nbeen pictures and video in the media, both of which would have penetrated a\nmagical disguise. Ambassadorships don't happen in a vacuum. Reis would have\nto have been a fool to even try such a ruse.\n\nMore to the point, Reis would have had no need to seek Gideon's post as\nambassador. He was more than wealthy enough to go to Woldercan on his own\ndime, even if he had any reason to go there, just as Cassie did.\n\nCassie knew for a fact that the man who kept vanishing and reappearing at\nher feet before being clubbed to death was Bill Reis, and she said so. She\nalso knew that he wasn't Gideon Chase. We know that because, months later,\nshortly after she got back to the States, she tried to contact him by\ncalling the university where he was employed. It was then that she learned,\nto her surprise, that he had been appointed the new ambassador to Woldercan\n(293).\n\nNow back to your original jumping-off point: If Wolfe said that Cassie was\ngoing to Woldercan to find Reis, and if he wasn't pulling your leg (I\nwould like to have the full context of his remark), that doesn't preclude\nReis having died on the island, just as the text has it.\n\nAny theory that seeks to reconcile these two seemingly contrary points must\ndo so within the bounds of the text, and cannot ignore such text-based facts\nas we are afforded, however inconvenient those facts may be to said theory.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<868173685EEC41B48E62700DD6054ACA@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-09-11T18:04:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe at Dragon*Con (AEG)", "in_reply_to": "<002801ca32fb$a4a77b20$05d04a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Any theory that seeks to reconcile these two seemingly contrary points \nmust\ndo so within the bounds of the text, and cannot ignore such text-based \nfacts\nas we are afforded, however inconvenient those facts may be to said \ntheory." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I absolutely agree with this. I made no definitive declarations about Reis's \ndeath or Chase being the impersonator. The last sentence in my first post on \nthis subject stated \"I'm not prepared to prove it is so.\" I truly appreciate \nyou taking time to take pot-shots at my theory but 1) I don't have much of a \ntheory yet to shoot at, and 2) keep your bead on the theory/hypothesis and \nnot at me.\n\nThe text based refutations you've offered are not as compelling as you seem \nto think they are. This is especially true for your \"practical\", non-text \nbased refutations. I've explained why, but I don't seem to be getting \nacross. As you know, anyone who believes that all the answers in a Wolfe \nnovel are in the text in any emphatic, unequivocal sense is deluding \nhimself. De-looooooding. Even if the explanation is there, it is typically \nsurrounded by 3 or 4 other reasonable interpretations of the explanation, \nand someone can probably point to an expert character to say it couldn't \npossibly be true. Every Wolfe novel and plenty of short stories requires \nthat the reader take a jump over an abyss at some point and then look back \nto see if he has landed safely. It's nice when, as now, Wolfe gives us a \ndirection to jump for.\n\nEverything Cassie said to Klauser has be read with the same suspicion that \none reads in what the President and Chase said to each other. She's \ndeliberately not telling Klauser the straight story. She's not even coming \nto him as Reis's bride. You should assume that everything she says is only \nhalf-true or sort-of true. If it seems that something she says was the whole \ntruth, clearly stated, that should bother you. That conversation is a really \nbad well to draw from to prove anything. It can only confirm what you've \nproven elsewhere." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Now back to your original jumping-off point: If Wolfe said that Cassie was\ngoing to Woldercan to find Reis, and if he wasn't pulling your leg (I\nwould like to have the full context of his remark)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "His quote doesn't require a lot of context for anyone who has read the book. \nHe wasn't talking to me directly. He was speaking on a panel. He was talking \nabout one of his characters that he truly loved: Cassie. In doing so, \nsummarized AEG in terms that were not especially revealing to anyone who had \nread the book. Then he got to the end of the story which he described \nexactly as I have recorded it: \"Cassie loved Bill Reis and at the end of the \nnovel she goes to Woldercon to look for him.\"\nAt last he summarized the last paragraph as being heartbreaking for him \nsince he was saying goodbye to Cassie.\n\nThere was no camera in the room, so this is the best I can do. I don't \nunderstand why you are so adamant to imply I'm an idiot or that Wolfe was \ntrying to pull something. I was as perplexed by the statement as you seem to \nbe. Deal with it. I'm trying to." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "that doesn't preclude\nReis having died on the island, just as the text has it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure. But the hypothesis I've offered requires the least nuance and clears \nup certain other problems I've had with the ending, just as I've stated." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ambassador\nto Woldercan is a high-profile position in a digital age. There would have\nbeen pictures and video in the media, both of which would have penetrated \na\nmagical disguise. Ambassadorships don't happen in a vacuum. Reis would \nhave\nto have been a fool to even try such a ruse." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is a ridiculous assertion. When is the last time you saw media coverage \nof the ambassador to England leaving for his post? Mind, the universe of AEG \nis not our own." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "More to the point, Reis would have had no need to seek Gideon's post as\nambassador. He was more than wealthy enough to go to Woldercan on his own\ndime, even if he had any reason to go there, just as Cassie did." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why do you assume that's the reason he would have assumed Gideon's identity? \nThe US government wasn't going to let him leave without revealing his \nsecret. The aliens of Takanga seemed to have a beef with him. He might have \nused his manufactured gold to get to Woldercon, but eventually it would have \nshown up as radioactive and the government would have followed him there.\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<909119bc0909111107r706d9209k768c5c25cc01f1fe@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Allan Anderson", "address": "rubel at goosemoon.org" }, "date": "2009-09-11T18:07:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe at Dragon*Con (AEG)", "in_reply_to": "<002801ca32fb$a4a77b20$05d04a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 9:19 AM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\n\nNow back to your original jumping-off point: If Wolfe said that Cassie was\ngoing to Woldercan to find Reis, and if he wasn't pulling your leg (I\nwould like to have the full context of his remark), that doesn't preclude\nReis having died on the island, just as the text has it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Some options: Cassie is crazy. Woldercan is where you go when you die.\nCassie is dead. Woldercan's time disjunction with Earth allows her to find\nReis, maybe. CLONES" } ] }, { "message_id": "<002301ca3350$283f0760$bad24a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2009-09-12T02:24:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe at Dragon*Con (AEG)", "in_reply_to": "<868173685EEC41B48E62700DD6054ACA@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nI truly appreciate\nyou taking time to take pot-shots at my theory but 1) I don't have much of\na\ntheory yet to shoot at, and 2) keep your bead on the theory/hypothesis and\nnot at me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You would do well to heed your own advice. In my first response to you, I\nsimply gave my objections to your theory of identity switching. You\nresponded with your comment about me \"freely conclusion jumping\". I have let\nmost of your other . . . comments pass since then.\n\nIn your first post in this AEG-tagged thread, you wrote: \"So when Wolfe said\nthis in the panel on Fictional Characters, a series of tumblers fell into\nplace in my head. It was Bill Reise disguised as Gideon Chase who left for\nWoldercon at the end of AEG.\"\n\nThat sounds like conclusion jumping to me. And you offer no means, plausible\nor otherwise, by which Reis might have disguised himself as Gideon and\ngotten away with it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The text based refutations you've offered are not as compelling as you\nseem\nto think they are." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I will agree that I find them compelling.\n\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Ambassador\nto Woldercan is a high-profile position in a digital age. There would\nhave\nbeen pictures and video in the media, both of which would have\npenetrated\na\nmagical disguise. Ambassadorships don't happen in a vacuum. Reis would\nhave\nto have been a fool to even try such a ruse." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is a ridiculous assertion." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There you go again." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When is the last time you saw media coverage\nof the ambassador to England leaving for his post? Mind, the universe of\nAEG is not our own." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Since you quoted from the second page of the book earlier today, I assume\nyou read it. Right on that fraking page, the president showed Gideon a\ntalking picture, one that, from the words spoken, was evidently just such a\nmedia picture as I have postulated. The occasion was Ambassador Reis' return\nto Earth from Woldercan.\n\nAnother reason for the media to be covering the story of a new ambassador is\nthe fact that the person who was ambassador at the start of the story would\nheve to be recalled and replaced by Gideon. The replacement of a sitting\nambassador is unusual and would be sufficient occasion for media coverage." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "More to the point, Reis would have had no need to seek Gideon's post as\nambassador. He was more than wealthy enough to go to Woldercan on his\nown\ndime, even if he had any reason to go there, just as Cassie did." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why do you assume that's the reason he would have assumed Gideon's\nidentity?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I really don't care why Reis might have assumed Gideon's identity: I'm\nsaying that it didn't happen, that Reis did not go to Woldercan disguised as\nAmbassador Gideon Chase. I have already given my text-based objections to\nany such disguise being workable." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The US government wasn't going to let him leave without revealing his\nsecret. The aliens of Takanga seemed to have a beef with him. He might\nhave\nused his manufactured gold to get to Woldercon, but eventually it would\nhave\nshown up as radioactive and the government would have followed him there." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Reis had ample wealth to get to Woldercan without resorting to bad gold, as\nevidenced by the diamonds he gave Cassie, the sale of which gave her the\nmoney for the big hopper. He wasn't stupid. Besides, he was presumed dead,\nwhich he was, and his body missing, as was the case for many of the\nthousands who died in the storm.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8476d0320909120954h4c25a266v2fe73d550f78849e@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Bruce Hayles", "address": "brucehayles at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-09-12T16:54:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe at Dragon*Con (AEG)", "in_reply_to": "<868173685EEC41B48E62700DD6054ACA@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Isn't it possible that \"going to Woldercan to find Reis\" wasn't meant to be\ntaken literally? It seems pretty easy to read that as Cassie was going to\nWoldercan to find love." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 2:04 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nAny theory that seeks to reconcile these two seemingly contrary points must\ndo so within the bounds of the text, and cannot ignore such text-based\nfacts\nas we are afforded, however inconvenient those facts may be to said\ntheory." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I absolutely agree with this. I made no definitive declarations about\nReis's death or Chase being the impersonator. The last sentence in my first\npost on this subject stated \"I'm not prepared to prove it is so.\" I truly\nappreciate you taking time to take pot-shots at my theory but 1) I don't\nhave much of a theory yet to shoot at, and 2) keep your bead on the\ntheory/hypothesis and not at me.\n\nThe text based refutations you've offered are not as compelling as you seem\nto think they are. This is especially true for your \"practical\", non-text\nbased refutations. I've explained why, but I don't seem to be getting\nacross. As you know, anyone who believes that all the answers in a Wolfe\nnovel are in the text in any emphatic, unequivocal sense is deluding\nhimself. De-looooooding. Even if the explanation is there, it is typically\nsurrounded by 3 or 4 other reasonable interpretations of the explanation,\nand someone can probably point to an expert character to say it couldn't\npossibly be true. Every Wolfe novel and plenty of short stories requires\nthat the reader take a jump over an abyss at some point and then look back\nto see if he has landed safely. It's nice when, as now, Wolfe gives us a\ndirection to jump for.\n\nEverything Cassie said to Klauser has be read with the same suspicion that\none reads in what the President and Chase said to each other. She's\ndeliberately not telling Klauser the straight story. She's not even coming\nto him as Reis's bride. You should assume that everything she says is only\nhalf-true or sort-of true. If it seems that something she says was the whole\ntruth, clearly stated, that should bother you. That conversation is a really\nbad well to draw from to prove anything. It can only confirm what you've\nproven elsewhere.\n\n Now back to your original jumping-off point: If Wolfe said that Cassie was\ngoing to Woldercan to find Reis, and if he wasn't pulling your leg (I\nwould like to have the full context of his remark)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "His quote doesn't require a lot of context for anyone who has read the\nbook. He wasn't talking to me directly. He was speaking on a panel. He was\ntalking about one of his characters that he truly loved: Cassie. In doing\nso, summarized AEG in terms that were not especially revealing to anyone who\nhad read the book. Then he got to the end of the story which he described\nexactly as I have recorded it: \"Cassie loved Bill Reis and at the end of the\nnovel she goes to Woldercon to look for him.\"\nAt last he summarized the last paragraph as being heartbreaking for him\nsince he was saying goodbye to Cassie.\n\nThere was no camera in the room, so this is the best I can do. I don't\nunderstand why you are so adamant to imply I'm an idiot or that Wolfe was\ntrying to pull something. I was as perplexed by the statement as you seem to\nbe. Deal with it. I'm trying to.\n\n that doesn't preclude\nReis having died on the island, just as the text has it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sure. But the hypothesis I've offered requires the least nuance and clears\nup certain other problems I've had with the ending, just as I've stated.\n\n Ambassador\nto Woldercan is a high-profile position in a digital age. There would have\nbeen pictures and video in the media, both of which would have penetrated\na\nmagical disguise. Ambassadorships don't happen in a vacuum. Reis would\nhave\nto have been a fool to even try such a ruse." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is a ridiculous assertion. When is the last time you saw media\ncoverage of the ambassador to England leaving for his post? Mind, the\nuniverse of AEG is not our own.\n\n More to the point, Reis would have had no need to seek Gideon's post as\nambassador. He was more than wealthy enough to go to Woldercan on his own\ndime, even if he had any reason to go there, just as Cassie did." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why do you assume that's the reason he would have assumed Gideon's\nidentity? The US government wasn't going to let him leave without revealing\nhis secret. The aliens of Takanga seemed to have a beef with him. He might\nhave used his manufactured gold to get to Woldercon, but eventually it would\nhave shown up as radioactive and the government would have followed him\nthere.\n\nJ.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<934DF631CB1C40E799FB970BF44A9F00@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-09-14T14:07:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe at Dragon*Con (AEG)", "in_reply_to": "<002301ca3350$283f0760$bad24a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You responded with your comment about me\n\"freely conclusion jumping\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"This is a ridiculous assertion.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There you go again." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Both of these are examples of me addressing your assertions. They don't \ninvolve me psychoanalyzing your motives for offering them. That's an \nimportant difference that I guess I'm surprised I need to delineate. I admit \nI *have* done the other in this thread out of a bit of tit-for-tat when \nyou've done it to me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In your first post in this AEG-tagged thread, you wrote: \"So when Wolfe \nsaid\nthis in the panel on Fictional Characters, a series of tumblers fell into\nplace in my head. It was Bill Reise disguised as Gideon Chase who left for\nWoldercon at the end of AEG.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay. I call it \"posing a hypothesis\", but if you want to characterize it as \n\"jumping to a conclusion\" I won't fight over it. But, in the same post, I \nadmitted I had no evidence to back this up. So maybe \"conclusion\" is not the \nright word. You, however, grasping fairly trivial (as I see it) assumptions \nasserted that it *couldn't* have been Gideon that was killed in the cave. \nSince you admit you are not all that clear on a *lot* of what *is* going on \nin this story, I doubt you are prepared state emphatically about what is \n*not* going on. It's your instant certainty (as well as the evidence you \npresented) that made me think that not a lot of \"turning over\" had gone into \nyour conclusion (and it *was* a \"conclusion\")." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Since you quoted from the second page of the book earlier today, I assume\nyou read it. Right on that fraking page, the president showed Gideon a\ntalking picture, one that, from the words spoken, was evidently just such \na\nmedia picture as I have postulated. The occasion was Ambassador Reis' \nreturn\nto Earth from Woldercan." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You are too careful a reader to make a mistake like this. 1) The occasion is \nNOT declared. 2) The speech sounds to me like it was made on Woldercon, not \nupon a return to Earth. 3) The new ambassador is NOT in the picture. 4) If I \nwere to hazard a guess (which would be jumping to conclusions) I'd say it \nwas an official recording made by the State Department at the going-away \nparty. There's no reason to assume that the new ambassador could not have \narranged to get around having such a picture made if he was motivated to." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Another reason for the media to be covering the story of a new ambassador \nis\nthe fact that the person who was ambassador at the start of the story \nwould\nheve to be recalled and replaced by Gideon. The replacement of a sitting\nambassador is unusual and would be sufficient occasion for media coverage." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This sort of thing is not covered by the media unless there is a \nprecipitating scandal. In any event, this is hardly a significant obstacle \nfor any writer. In is entirely a non-impediment that would not even require \njustifying text." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I really don't care why Reis might have assumed Gideon's identity: I'm\nsaying that it didn't happen," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I know. But you should bother to come up with glaring evidence that it \ndidn't happen or be able explain what *is* going on in the story that makes \nit happening unnecessary. You can't. Reis-imposters are running around \nthroughout this story, but you're soooo positive that this isn't happening \nhere. I don't see why. You immediately staked out such a van guard position \nthat it will be very difficult for you to back away from it, no matter what \nevidences are presented later. And given the flimsy obstacles you have \npresented so far, I imagine that you always will be able to find ample proof \nto back up your doubts." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Reis had ample wealth to get to Woldercan without resorting to bad gold, \nas\nevidenced by the diamonds he gave Cassie, the sale of which gave her the\nmoney for the big hopper." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What???? You don't KNOW this. Reis's bad gold is repeatedly presented as the \nfoundation of his fortune. I could just as well assume that he was so \nleveraged that his empire could not survive a month without it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Besides, he was presumed dead,\nwhich he was, and his body missing, as was the case for many of the\nthousands who died in the storm." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So what? You don't think the government checks out the background of people \nwho go to Woldercon?\nHowever, let me say this flatly: IF Wolfe had Reis go to Woldercon as Chase \n(and if Reis is on Woldercon that *is* a very likely explanation since he's \nthe only other character presented as going there), THEN Wolfe did it for \none reason -- Good story construction. It was simply more interesting at \nthat point in the story than having Reis create a brand new identity that \nthe reader was not familiar with.\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<72F9BF2A8F71401CAAB30ADF4F3EA1D9@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-09-14T14:35:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe at Dragon*Con (AEG)", "in_reply_to": "<8476d0320909120954h4c25a266v2fe73d550f78849e@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Isn't it possible that \"going to Woldercan to find Reis\"\nwasn't meant to be taken literally? It seems pretty easy to\nread that as Cassie was going to Woldercan to find love." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Umm...well, anything is possible, but it would be a pretty vague metaphor in \nany case. And it would be especially obscure in this case because \"love\" was \nnot the point of the panel or Wolfe's statement and since he seemed to be \npresuming that most of the audience had not read AEG. In every other point \nin this particular discourse, he summarized AEG flatly, without poetic \nflourish. I failed to detect any poetic flourish in any of his statements on \nthe panels I sat in on.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "<860638.16549.qm@web37604.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-09-14T14:40:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG and Dr. Lao", "in_reply_to": "<72F9BF2A8F71401CAAB30ADF4F3EA1D9@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Has it ever been noted before that Woldercon/Woldercan is the name of the mythical city to be summoned in Finney's Circus of Dr. Lao?\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-09-14T16:00:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG and Dr. Lao", "in_reply_to": "<860638.16549.qm@web37604.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 10:40 AM, Craig Brewer wrote:\nHas it ever been noted before that Woldercon/Woldercan is the name of the mythical city to be summoned in Finney's Circus of Dr. Lao?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A google of the list doesn't show anything:\nhttp://www.google.com/search?num=100&q=Circus+of+Dr.+Lao+site%3Awww.urth.net\n\nBut a more generic google shows someone has indeed identified that\nconnection before:\nhttp://lists.urth.net/pipermail/urth-urth.net/2008-October/010204.html\n\nI wonder what was wrong with my previous query?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2009-09-14T22:35:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG in NYRSF", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have only just received my copy of the the August edition of the NYRSF, \nwhere Darrell Schweitzer reviews AEG. He comments that the President is \n\"not recognizably a caricature of any specific president\". But could he \nbe based on LBJ?\n\nCheers, David Duffy." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "| David Duffy (MBBS PhD) ,-_|\\\n| email: davidD at qimr.edu.au ph: INT+61+7+3362-0217 fax: -0101 / *\n| Epidemiology Unit, Queensland Institute of Medical Research \\_,-._/\n| 300 Herston Rd, Brisbane, Queensland 4029, Australia GPG 4D0B994A v" } ] }, { "message_id": "<002901ca3593$e5e168e0$abd24a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2009-09-14T23:34:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe at Dragon*Con (AEG)", "in_reply_to": "<934DF631CB1C40E799FB970BF44A9F00@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn quoted and wrote:\nI really don't care why Reis might have assumed Gideon's identity: I'm\nsaying that it didn't happen," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I know. But you should bother to come up with glaring evidence that it\ndidn't happen or be able explain what *is* going on in the story that\nmakes\nit happening unnecessary. You can't." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You've got me there: I concede that I cannot prove a negative." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Reis had ample wealth to get to Woldercan without resorting to bad gold,\nas\nevidenced by the diamonds he gave Cassie, the sale of which gave her the\nmoney for the big hopper." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What???? You don't KNOW this." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, I do, and so should you." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Reis's bad gold is repeatedly presented as the\nfoundation of his fortune. I could just as well assume that he was so\nleveraged that his empire could not survive a month without it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Reis was a wealthy man before he ever went to Woldercan as President\nIngstrup's ambassador. He was a contractor: \"Become a contractor himself,\nan' was smart enough to see the big money went to them that had friends in\nhigh places.\"(14) \"He was a major contributor to President Ingstrup's first\ncampaign. Also to his second, though that doesn't really come into it. Major\ncontributors are often given ambassadorships.\" (15-16)\n\nThe added wealth he acquired from bad gold after returning to Earth was\nicing on the cake. Anyway, the bad gold was converted to clean assets, such\nas diamonds and cash. My point stands: Reis did not need to resort to\nsomehow taking Gideon's place as the new ambassador. He had the means to buy\na hopper that would get to Woldercan, just as Cassie did -- provided he was\nalive to do it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Besides, he was presumed dead,\nwhich he was, and his body missing, as was the case for many of the\nthousands who died in the storm." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So what? You don't think the government checks out the background of\npeople\nwho go to Woldercon?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh, I do believe the government makes such checks, particularly of State\nDepartment personnel. I am even naive enough to believe that the FBI and\nother government agencies involved were competent enough to distinguish\nbetween the big bad man they were looking for and the smaller man who was\nsent to find him, with or without an amputated leg." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "However, let me say this flatly: IF Wolfe had Reis go to Woldercon as\nChase\n(and if Reis is on Woldercon that *is* a very likely explanation since\nhe's\nthe only other character presented as going there), THEN Wolfe did it for\none reason -- Good story construction. It was simply more interesting at\nthat point in the story than having Reis create a brand new identity that\nthe reader was not familiar with." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is the Reis-as-Ambassador Gideon Chase part I balk at. There must be\nanother explanation for Wolfe's comment.\n\nAnd, since there seems to be some confusion, in Wolfe's book it is\n\"Woldercan\", not \"Woldercon\".\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<909119bc0909141650l60966be7p27b267ecef80acfa@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Allan Anderson", "address": "rubel at goosemoon.org" }, "date": "2009-09-14T23:50:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe at Dragon*Con (AEG)", "in_reply_to": "<002901ca3593$e5e168e0$abd24a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And, since there seems to be some confusion, in Wolfe's book it is\n\"Woldercan\", not \"Woldercon\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, I often make that slip, too. When I first read \"Woldercan\", the image\nof a spacestation \"tin can\" sprung to mind. But then I started reading\n\"Woldercon\", imagining a Wolfe-themed convention. Some of the descriptions\nin the book (fierce beasts, deep forests?) led me to wonder if \"wolder\"\nmeans \"wild\". But then the most obvious connotation would have to be the\n\"Circus of Dr. Lao\" reference people have pointed out. Still gotta read\nthat.\n\nTo snip a perhaps apropos phrase from Dr. Lao's Wikipedia summary,\"..the\nmythical city of 'Woldercan', populated by doubles of the townfolk...\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 4:34 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nJames Wynn quoted and wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I really don't care why Reis might have assumed Gideon's identity: I'm\nsaying that it didn't happen," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I know. But you should bother to come up with glaring evidence that it\ndidn't happen or be able explain what *is* going on in the story that\nmakes\nit happening unnecessary. You can't." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You've got me there: I concede that I cannot prove a negative." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Reis had ample wealth to get to Woldercan without resorting to bad\ngold,\nas\nevidenced by the diamonds he gave Cassie, the sale of which gave her\nthe\nmoney for the big hopper." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What???? You don't KNOW this." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, I do, and so should you." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Reis's bad gold is repeatedly presented as the\nfoundation of his fortune. I could just as well assume that he was so\nleveraged that his empire could not survive a month without it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Reis was a wealthy man before he ever went to Woldercan as President\nIngstrup's ambassador. He was a contractor: \"Become a contractor himself,\nan' was smart enough to see the big money went to them that had friends in\nhigh places.\"(14) \"He was a major contributor to President Ingstrup's\nfirst\ncampaign. Also to his second, though that doesn't really come into it.\nMajor\ncontributors are often given ambassadorships.\" (15-16)\n\nThe added wealth he acquired from bad gold after returning to Earth was\nicing on the cake. Anyway, the bad gold was converted to clean assets, such\nas diamonds and cash. My point stands: Reis did not need to resort to\nsomehow taking Gideon's place as the new ambassador. He had the means to\nbuy\na hopper that would get to Woldercan, just as Cassie did -- provided he was\nalive to do it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Besides, he was presumed dead,\nwhich he was, and his body missing, as was the case for many of the\nthousands who died in the storm." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So what? You don't think the government checks out the background of\npeople\nwho go to Woldercon?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Oh, I do believe the government makes such checks, particularly of State\nDepartment personnel. I am even naive enough to believe that the FBI and\nother government agencies involved were competent enough to distinguish\nbetween the big bad man they were looking for and the smaller man who was\nsent to find him, with or without an amputated leg." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "However, let me say this flatly: IF Wolfe had Reis go to Woldercon as\nChase\n(and if Reis is on Woldercon that *is* a very likely explanation since\nhe's\nthe only other character presented as going there), THEN Wolfe did it for\none reason -- Good story construction. It was simply more interesting at\nthat point in the story than having Reis create a brand new identity that\nthe reader was not familiar with." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is the Reis-as-Ambassador Gideon Chase part I balk at. There must be\nanother explanation for Wolfe's comment.\n\nAnd, since there seems to be some confusion, in Wolfe's book it is\n\"Woldercan\", not \"Woldercon\".\n\n-Roy\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-09-15T01:19:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe at Dragon*Con (AEG)", "in_reply_to": "<002901ca3593$e5e168e0$abd24a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And, since there seems to be some confusion, in Wolfe's book it is\n\"Woldercan\", not \"Woldercon\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lest the minor difference in spelling lead to some confusion, Wolfe\npronounces it \"Wolder-kahn\"." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1bf4dd40909141841q17bd9349r5ab1610b28ce30bd@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Charles Tallman", "address": "rocketsunner at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-09-15T01:41:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe at Dragon*Con (AEG)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "* Isn't it possible that \"going to Woldercan to find Reis\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "*>>* wasn't meant to be taken literally? It seems pretty easy to\n*>>* read that as Cassie was going to Woldercan to find love.\n*\nI do think Wolfe is being tricky, and that Bill Reis isn't literally\nto be found alive on Woldercan of \"the present.\" There are two\npossible explanations:\n\n1) Cassie will somehow journey to the Woldercan of the past (during\nBill's time there) and become the ambassador's wife we know so little\nabout. Plausible, except that\n a) She's no longer beautiful enough to win his heart.\n b) If she tells him of the future that will cause major time paradoxes.\n\n2) What Wolfe meant was that she will go to Woldercan as a first step\non a journey to change the past, allowing her to attempt to save\nBill's life. This fits perfectly\n with my old theory of Margaret Briggs as future Cassie, and it's\nthe theory I'm sticking too now." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4AAF0EA5.1020408@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2009-09-15T03:48:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Cassie as the Ambassador's wife", "in_reply_to": "<1bf4dd40909141841q17bd9349r5ab1610b28ce30bd@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Now that I think about it, it's not so impossible that Cassie could get \nher ship-board computer to figure out how to travel to the Woldercan of \nthe past, so as to become the Mrs. Reis of that time. Through the \nmiracles of time-travel she could even be the mother of Rian. If so, the \nchoice of the name \"Rian\" is time-looped (his mother named him, p. 277). \nIt's also predictive, since it means \"little prince\" at a time when Bill \nwas not yet a king. Cassie mourned for her children (p. 295) that she \ncould have had with Bill. This way, she will have one.\n\nIt then makes perfect sense that Cassie cannot meet Rian in person. He \nwould recognize her. Rian is a \"little too brave\" (p. 26), and so is \nCassie, sometimes. It would also make sense for him to have a birth \ndefect only magic could cure, given the magic that has enhanced and \nun-enhanced Cassie's system.\n\nCould she be beautiful enough again to win Bill? I think so. She knows \nthat beauticians can do a lot for her (p. 292). Not enough to be a \nmega-star, but enough to woo Bill. She can tell him some sort of story, \nnot the truth. She's a good liar. So there need not be time paradoxes.\n\nShe knows it will end in divorce, but she will have a son, a piece of a \nman she loved and lost (p. 26). This would be a fairly happy ending, and \nit doesn't exclude her going back again, later in life, to be Margaret \nBriggs as well.\n\nThe Norns, or Fates, were supposed to be a maiden, a mother, and a \ncrone. Cassie could play all three roles in this story. In \"Figures of \nEarth,\" James Branch Cabell calls them the Gray Three or the Gray \nWeavers. This ties in with Margaret as a Gray Neighbor (p. 64)." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-09-15T14:01:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG in NYRSF", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have only just received my copy of the the August edition of the NYRSF, \nwhere Darrell Schweitzer reviews AEG. He comments that the President is \n\"not recognizably a caricature of any specific president\". But could he \nbe based on LBJ?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think it's a caricature but it's pretty obviously inspired by G.W. \nBush. Since it's a NY publication, perhaps Schweitzer thought he was doing \nthe book a favor not to highlight that.\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0909150703n520c9e28vd0d43b5824944074@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-09-15T14:03:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG in NYRSF", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought the character's speech patterns were recognizably those of George\nW. Bush as well. I don't think anything of Wolfe's attitude toward the\nformer president can or should be divined from the character, though--I\nthink Wolfe, who very obviously enjoys characters with idiosyncratic speech,\nwas just having fun." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 10:01 AM, James Wynn wrote:\n I have only just received my copy of the the August edition of the NYRSF,\nwhere Darrell Schweitzer reviews AEG. He comments that the President is\n\"not recognizably a caricature of any specific president\". But could he be\nbased on LBJ?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think it's a caricature but it's pretty obviously inspired by G.W.\nBush. Since it's a NY publication, perhaps Schweitzer thought he was doing\nthe book a favor not to highlight that.\n\nJ.\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-09-15T14:21:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe at Dragon*Con (AEG)", "in_reply_to": "<909119bc0909141650l60966be7p27b267ecef80acfa@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To snip a perhaps apropos phrase from Dr. Lao's Wikipedia summary,\n\"..the mythical city of 'Woldercan', populated by doubles of the \ntownfolk...\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Which is another potential resolution to Cassie going to Woldercan to find \nReis.\nThis sounds a lot like the planet St. Anne where a kind of fairie race \ncopies the human population (with hints of \"The Book of the Short Sun\").\n\nIf Reis and Chase were actually Woldercanlings, then Cassie could have been \ngoing there to find the original. Nice Platonic ring to it.\nEven if that isn't the case, Cassie might have divined that the Woldercan \nheld duplicates of the Earthlings who had been there. Ironically, this \nstrikes me as less likely than the first.\n\nUnfortunately, this solution still leaves Chase as an unfired revolver on \nthe table.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "<008f01ca3635$e0f80e40$0ad04a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2009-09-15T18:53:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Cassie as the Ambassador's wife", "in_reply_to": "<4AAF0EA5.1020408@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Where the hell have you been, Dave? Or is it Charles? You were missed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You wrote:\nNow that I think about it, it's not so impossible that Cassie could get\nher ship-board computer to figure out how to travel to the Woldercan of\nthe past, so as to become the Mrs. Reis of that time. Through the\nmiracles of time-travel she could even be the mother of Rian." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Reis had a wife when he first got to Woldercan as Ingstrup's ambassador\n(301). Ingstrup served two terms, so Reis would have been on Woldercan for\neight years. He had been back on Earth for something over two years, since\nthat was how long ago he hired Gideon to fix some business deal (120). Rian\nis sixteen, so he should have been born before Reis ever went to Woldercan.\n\nReis seems not to have had a wife when he got back to Earth, judging from\nhis comments about the South Seas in that other picture. So his Woldercan\nwife must have left him while he was still on Woldercan. She may be Madame\nPavlatos, who is filthy rich." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If so, the\nchoice of the name \"Rian\" is time-looped (his mother named him, p. 277).\nIt's also predictive, since it means \"little prince\" at a time when Bill\nwas not yet a king. Cassie mourned for her children (p. 295) that she\ncould have had with Bill. This way, she will have one.\n\nIt then makes perfect sense that Cassie cannot meet Rian in person. He\nwould recognize her. Rian is a \"little too brave\" (p. 26), and so is\nCassie, sometimes. It would also make sense for him to have a birth\ndefect only magic could cure, given the magic that has enhanced and\nun-enhanced Cassie's system." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To say nothing of exposure to radioactive gold, particularly for Reis.\n\nSharon said that Rian's mother \"went to Chase, and her son's just fine.\" I\ndon't know how old Rian was when Gideon fixed his heart, but I would think\nthat in a matter so important to his mother, she and Gid would have met. If\nso, he gives no hint that he recognized her." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Could she be beautiful enough again to win Bill? I think so. She knows\nthat beauticians can do a lot for her (p. 292). Not enough to be a\nmega-star, but enough to woo Bill. She can tell him some sort of story,\nnot the truth. She's a good liar. So there need not be time paradoxes.\n\nShe knows it will end in divorce, but she will have a son, a piece of a\nman she loved and lost (p. 26). This would be a fairly happy ending, and\nit doesn't exclude her going back again, later in life, to be Margaret\nBriggs as well." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "After selling the diamonds, Cassie was the richest woman in the state.\nRian's mother was rich and still alive. Pavlatos was filthy rich, whether or\nnot she was also Rian's mother. Then there is poor Margaret. How did she\ncome to be the only version not rich? Depending on Pavlatos's status, that\nmakes three or four versions of the same woman running around on Earth at\nthe same time. That makes any attempts to go back in time for a do-over\nproblematic.\n\nOTOH, the attempts might account for perceived differences among Reis,\nRosenquist and (maybe) Rusterman. Things get very messy.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1bf4dd40909151416q5540f1cdk1a13ec5c45ab88dd@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Charles Tallman", "address": "rocketsunner at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-09-15T21:16:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Cassie as the Ambassador's wife", "in_reply_to": "<008f01ca3635$e0f80e40$0ad04a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Where the hell have you been, Dave? Or is it Charles? You were missed." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Officially I'm Charles David Tallman, but I usually go by my middle\nname. Some mailers have it one way, some the other. I unsubscribed for\na while due to pressures of real life, then found I couldn't get\nre-subscribed for some reason. I put in a lot of Wolfe effort over on\nWolfeWiki, then yesterday I thought of re-subscribing with a different\nemail address, and it worked." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Reis seems not to have had a wife when he got back to Earth, judging from\nhis comments about the South Seas in that other picture. So his Woldercan\nwife must have left him while he was still on Woldercan. She may be Madame\nPavlatos, who is filthy rich." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, Madame Pavlatos is a good candidate for the Woldercan wife. I\nconsidered adding to the theory that this is Cassie also (rake-thin,\nbrunette, once-beautiful) all fits but the hair, which she could have\ndyed. There is the lucky \"coincidence\" that she arrives to save Cassie\nfrom being marooned on the island. I distrust coincidences in a book\nwith time-travel. She\nmay have come there specifically to save her younger self. Going back\nin time to re-create a marriage is quite the Ignacio thing to do, and\nwhile she's at it she can rescue herself. The Pavlatos name may be a\nrebound marriage after Wally divorced her." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sharon said that Rian's mother \"went to Chase, and her son's just fine.\" I\ndon't know how old Rian was when Gideon fixed his heart, but I would think\nthat in a matter so important to his mother, she and Gid would have met. If\nso, he gives no hint that he recognized her." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Rian's age of sixteen may be part of the time-travel paradoxes of\ngoing to Woldercan and back. If Reis came back before he left -- I\nthink he did, creating greater a greater confusion for his foes about\nthe Reis/Rosenquist identities, then Cassie and Rian could have also.\nThey dealt with Chase first, leading Reis to consult him. Chase plays\na devious game throughout. He may have recognized Cassie and chosen to\nsay nothing." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "After selling the diamonds, Cassie was the richest woman in the state.\nRian's mother was rich and still alive. Pavlatos was filthy rich, whether or\nnot she was also Rian's mother. Then there is poor Margaret. How did she\ncome to be the only version not rich? Depending on Pavlatos's status, that\nmakes three or four versions of the same woman running around on Earth at\nthe same time. That makes any attempts to go back in time for a do-over\nproblematic." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Margaret may not be as poor as she appeared to be. She apparently\nnever took valuables from her clients (Reis had this investigated).\nShe needed to appear poor in order to play her role as a dresser and\nget close to Cassie. That's all that matters.\n\nYes, this makes three versions of Cassie running around. Reis is doing\nit also. No wonder there are confusions of all sorts, including\nshifting addresses." } ] }, { "message_id": "<6E8EB03E2AB043F7B39AFADC12397FAD@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-09-16T11:17:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Cassie as the Ambassador's wife", "in_reply_to": "<008f01ca3635$e0f80e40$0ad04a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Depending on Pavlatos's status, that\nmakes three or four versions of the same woman running around\non Earth at\nthe same time. That makes any attempts to go back in time for a do-over\nproblematic.\nOTOH, the attempts might account for perceived differences among Reis,\nRosenquist and (maybe) Rusterman. Things get very messy." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Aside from the mess, it would make hash of any timeline of ambassadors. If\nsignificant time-travel can be caused just by going to Woldercan, then Chase\nand Reis might well have returned to Earth as long ago or as recently as you\nplease. The President never mentioned such a phenomenon.\n\nAlso, you can only get one extra copy per trip to Woldercan.\n\nFinally, I don't\nrecall any precedent for broad time variation in travelling to Woldercan.\nSure, a missive congratulating Gideon's parents on their child's birth\narrived before his birth, but surely not *years* before his his birth...and\ncertainly not beyond a single year.\n\nI do like Pavlatos as another Cassie, and I want to see the time variation\nemployed in the plot, but if Pavlatos-as-Cassie or the three evil Reis's are\nto be explained by time-travel, it would it not require a mad cognitive to\nbest all leaps?\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4AB103F7.8080008@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2009-09-16T15:27:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Cassie as the Ambassador's wife", "in_reply_to": "<6E8EB03E2AB043F7B39AFADC12397FAD@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Aside from the mess, it would make hash of any timeline of ambassadors. If\nsignificant time-travel can be caused just by going to Woldercan, then Chase\nand Reis might well have returned to Earth as long ago or as recently as you\nplease. The President never mentioned such a phenomenon.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It must be a trick unknown to the President, perhaps only learned by \nthose who go to Woldercan. One has to go a long way out into space, \noutside the galaxy (that's the reason the Milky Way looks like a little \nband of bright stars on p. 301). Perhaps the further one hops, the more \ntime displacement is possible. Perhaps it's to get to a region where the \nlaws of physics are even more different than they are on Woldercan (p. 300).\n\nAt any rate, it's not possible that the location in the final paragraph, \nfrom which Cassie says \"Come back to me, Wally!\" is part of her original \ntrip to Woldercan. It takes twenty-something hops to get there (p. \n298). After five hops, she opens the package with the picture (p. 301). \nSometime after this (at least five hops, probably more), \"the sun was a \nyellow spark and the blue sphere of Earth less than nothing.\" So, about \na quarter of the way to Woldercan, the sun is still a distinctly visible \nstar. In fifteen or so more hops she gets outside the galaxy? \nImpossible. This is a new trip, with a lot more fuel. What is its \npurpose? I say it's the start of her trip back into time, to get Wally \nback again." } ] }, { "message_id": "<9DF8A3168F3A4D1D8DFCDBA267DF11D2@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-09-16T15:37:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Cassie as the Ambassador's wife", "in_reply_to": "<4AB103F7.8080008@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At any rate, it's not possible that the location in the final paragraph,\nfrom which Cassie says \"Come back to me, Wally!\" is part of her original \ntrip to Woldercan. It takes twenty-something hops to get there (p. 298). \nAfter five hops, she opens the package with the picture (p. 301). Sometime \nafter this (at least five hops, probably more), \"the sun was a yellow \nspark and the blue sphere of Earth less than nothing.\" So, about a quarter \nof the way to Woldercan, the sun is still a distinctly visible star. In \nfifteen or so more hops she gets outside the galaxy? Impossible. This is a \nnew trip, with a lot more fuel. What is its purpose? I say it's the start \nof her trip back into time, to get Wally back again." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's an interesting take. But the hops could be gravitationally \ninfluenced. As one leaves the solar system and then the galaxy, the hops \nlengthen exponentially or as a ratio of the affecting gravity.\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<002001ca3703$24deef20$e4cf4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2009-09-16T19:23:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Cassie as the Ambassador's wife", "in_reply_to": "<1bf4dd40909151416q5540f1cdk1a13ec5c45ab88dd@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dave Tallman wrote:\nRian's age of sixteen may be part of the time-travel paradoxes of\ngoing to Woldercan and back. If Reis came back before he left -- I\nthink he did, creating greater a greater confusion for his foes about\nthe Reis/Rosenquist identities, then Cassie and Rian could have also.\nThey dealt with Chase first, leading Reis to consult him. Chase plays\na devious game throughout. He may have recognized Cassie and chosen to\nsay nothing." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So Rian was born on Woldercan? This makes my head hurt.\n\nCassie was in her early-to-mid-thirties at the end of the book, despite\nlooking like an old woman. She goes to Woldercan and arrives some years\nbefore Reis ever got there as Klauser's replacement? Then what? She looked\nlike crap, and Gideon and Reis were still back on Earth. Gid wasn't there to\nfix her looks (if it was even possible), and Reis wasn't there to father\nRian on her.\n\nFor Cassie to be Rian's mother (and Reis his father), she had to hook up\nwith Reis at some point. She had her mojo for only a matter of months, and\nwas too long stranded on that island for her to have been pregnant when she\nwas rescued. So when did she conceive Rian? It didn't happen before the\nfirst day of the story or during the story; it had to be in her personal\nfuture.\n\nWait. Suppose she became the proverbial \"other woman\". She went to Woldercan\nto see Gideon but arrived too soon, while Reis was still ambassador. She\ngets her health and looks back enough to attract Reis (there cannot have\nbeen many human women on Woldercan), has a fling that breaks up his\nmarriage, and gets pregnant. Maybe even married him. They have a falling\nout. She and Rian go back to Earth alone and arrive before page one.\n\nThat is wild speculation, and I don't like it. \n\nCassie told Klauser that she hoped to be on Woldercan a long time. It\n*seems* as if she planned to go there to see Ambassador Gideon Chase, and\nshe didn't talk to Klauser as if she *planned* to try to go back in time.\nThe vagaries of ethermail suggest that time travel would be unpredictable,\nat best, if it is even possible. If it is possible, it seems like it would\nbe common knowledge, or that the government at least would know of it and\nwarn its off-world diplomats." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "After selling the diamonds, Cassie was the richest woman in the state.\nRian's mother was rich and still alive. Pavlatos was filthy rich,\nwhether or\nnot she was also Rian's mother. Then there is poor Margaret. How did she\ncome to be the only version not rich? Depending on Pavlatos's status,\nthat\nmakes three or four versions of the same woman running around on Earth\nat\nthe same time. That makes any attempts to go back in time for a do-over\nproblematic." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Margaret may not be as poor as she appeared to be. She apparently\nnever took valuables from her clients (Reis had this investigated).\nShe needed to appear poor in order to play her role as a dresser and\nget close to Cassie. That's all that matters." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I still have doubts that she could have faked a past that would have stood\nup to serious inquiry. Anyway, she is supposed to be about sixty. That makes\nher older than Cassie and Rian's mother (hard to say about Pavlatos). If\nMargaret was ever the young Cassie who had loved and lost Wally/Bill, and\nwho had gone to Woldercan and gone back in time to try to fix things, she\nwas somewhere for at least two-dozen years that is in Cassie's future. That\nlooks to me to be a bleak future, and her efforts failed. That is, one\nversion of Cassie's life did not get overwritten by another one--at least\nnot that I can see. Broken Cassie passed old Margaret in the street. That\nMargaret was still there is the proof of failure.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1bf4dd40909161830r5d20bacao479347b332225867@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Charles Tallman", "address": "rocketsunner at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-09-17T01:30:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Cassie as the Ambassador's wife", "in_reply_to": "<002001ca3703$24deef20$e4cf4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nSo Rian was born on Woldercan? This makes my head hurt." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Cassie was in her early-to-mid-thirties at the end of the book, despite" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "looking like an old woman. She goes to Woldercan and arrives some years\nbefore Reis ever got there as Klauser's replacement? Then what? She looked\nlike crap, and Gideon and Reis were still back on Earth. Gid wasn't there\nto\nfix her looks (if it was even possible), and Reis wasn't there to father\nRian on her." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My reconstruction of the time travel would go more like this:\n1) Cassie's original 20+ hop trip to Woldercan involved no time-travel. She\nmet with Gideon Chase, as planned, but learned there was no way to restore\nher mojo. (She might shoot him at this point).\n2) Using Woldercan resources (talking fish, Woldercan natives, etc.) she\nfinds out how to do time travel. She takes big hopper with lots of fuel and\nuses it to go into the past, to Earth.\n3) The time is before the appointment of Bill Reis as ambassador. She finds\na way to court and marry Bill. Tricky, but she knows a lot about him and\nwhat he likes.\n4) They travel to Woldercan together. She takes the picture (p. 301), which\nexplains why she isn't in it. Bill says the old amabassador was kind to him\nand his wife (not family), so there is no son yet.\n5) Rian is conceived. When the boy is born there are medical troubles.\nCassie knows they can only be resolved on Earth, so she leaves. She uses the\ntime-travel trick again. Rian will be the right age if she does this, and\nthat may be the purpose (time-looped history reconstruction). Her\ntime-travel will inspire Bill to learn to do the same trick.\n6) She spends the next 18 or so years raising Rian. The boy is her life. If\nshe's Pavlatos, she also remarries and does some boating, etc.\n7) This gets her to about ago 50. Rian is gone -- empty nest. Maybe he dies,\nkilled by Bill's enemies.\n8) She broods again on the past and decides to try to shake it up as\nMargaret. She gets the old ship back from where-ever she stashed it and does\none more trip deeper into the past.\n9) She uses another ten years to establish herself as Margaret the dresser.\nNow she's in her 60's.\n10) Her attempt to change the past fails, so she ends up sad and alone. She\nknows her younger self will repeat the cycle." } ] }, { "message_id": "<20090917072833.28B604800C@diego.dreamhost.com>", "from": { "name": "Mo Holkar / UKG", "address": "lists at ukg.co.uk" }, "date": "2009-09-17T07:28:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Cassie as the Ambassador's wife", "in_reply_to": "<1bf4dd40909161830r5d20bacao479347b332225867@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "At 02:30 17/09/2009, Davewrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My reconstruction of the time travel would go more like this:\n1) Cassie's original 20+ hop trip to Woldercan involved no \ntime-travel. She met with Gideon Chase, as planned, but learned \nthere was no way to restore her mojo. (She might shoot him at this point).\n2) Using Woldercan resources (talking fish, Woldercan natives, etc.) \nshe finds out how to do time travel. She takes big hopper with lots \nof fuel and uses it to go into the past, to Earth.\n3) The time is before the appointment of Bill Reis as ambassador. \nShe finds a way to court and marry Bill. Tricky, but she knows a lot \nabout him and what he likes." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This means, though, that she would have to court and marry Bill as \nhaggard old Cassie -- she has had no opportunity to restore her looks \ninbetween? Unless you postulate there are also Woldercan resources \nfor doing that.\n\nNot necessarily impossible that he might still fall for her, but it \nseems to go against what we know of his showoffy nature.\n\nbest wishes,\n\nMo\n\n\n# ~ # ~ #\n\nWolfeWiki -- a wiki about Gene Wolfe\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/ " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-09-17T11:13:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Cassie as the Ambassador's wife", "in_reply_to": "<20090917072833.28B604800C@diego.dreamhost.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sep 17, 2009, at 3:28 AM, Mo Holkar / UKG wrote:\n\nThis means, though, that she would have to court and marry Bill as \nhaggard old Cassie -- she has had no opportunity to restore her \nlooks inbetween? Unless you postulate there are also Woldercan \nresources for doing that." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "*THAT* part is easy. That'd be \"fey glamour,\" and it'd be basically \nwhat Gideon Chase (who, in my opinion, is a Woldercan changeling) \ndoes. I think we have much firmer evidence of this than we do of \nmanipulable time travel.\n\nNote also that THIS would make some sense of that last weird \nconversation Cassie has with the former ambassador: he warns her about \ntaking a sanitary napkin.\n\nThat made me go WTF for a while, but: what do the fey want from \nhumans? What can Cassie trade them? Her womb, so they can beget more \nchangelings, so it is in fact vital that she still be fertile.\n\nIn fact, if we want to throw in a time loop, then Cassie can be \nGideon's mother. How you like THEM apples?\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3D055C4752D54729B6525C6A0CF59131@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-09-17T14:07:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Cassie as the Ambassador's wife", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In fact, if we want to throw in a time loop, then Cassie can be Gideon's \nmother. How you like THEM apples?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, and then Gid healed himself.\nI entertained this thought for two seconds until I considered that Chase and \nCassie \"did it\". Ew.\n\nI know Sev did it with his granma, but a line must be drawn.\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4AB24F84.80803@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2009-09-17T15:02:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Cassie as the Ambassador's wife", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Adam Thornton writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "*THAT* part is easy. That'd be \"fey glamour,\" and it'd be basically \nwhat Gideon Chase (who, in my opinion, is a Woldercan changeling) \ndoes. I think we have much firmer evidence of this than we do of \nmanipulable time travel.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's a plausible idea, and something she could have learned there. \nBill's wife on Woldercan does not appear in the photo (only Reis and \nKlauser), so she could have a glamour (p. 301). It would make it more \ndifficult for her to be Madame Pavlatos, who does appear in photos (p. 289)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In fact, if we want to throw in a time loop, then Cassie can be \nGideon's mother. How you like THEM apples?\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gideon was the son of the previous ambassador Bob Chase, supposedly. \nCassie has no reason to go back and marry him, too." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1bf4dd40909171400p523df6d8q11949a1584afbab@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2009-09-17T21:00:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Cassie as the Ambassador's wife", "in_reply_to": "<4AB24F84.80803@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nThat's an interesting take. But the hops could be gravitationally\ninfluenced. As one leaves the solar system and then the galaxy, the hops\nlengthen exponentially or as a ratio of the affecting gravity." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The hop distances may not be so impossible. In Wolfe's \"To the Seventh\", FTL\ntechnology is transferred to Earth by a passing alien hopper ship. The ship\nin that story could do 500,000 light years on a single charge of fuel.\nThat's about five times the distance across the Milky Way galaxy. Say\nWoldercan is in the nearest spiral galaxy, Andromeda (note the Cassiopeia\nconnection), which is 2.7 million light-years from the Milky Way. At the\n\"Seventh\" rate that would be less than six full-out hops. Add ten on each\nend from manuevering to and from solar systems, and you get 26 -- right on\ntarget for Cassie's fuel.\n\nThe \"To the Seventh\" story is probably not in the past of \"An Evil Guest.\"\nNew York was destroyed in the former, and they are still putting on Broadway\nplays in the latter. But we could use this as a plausible measure for how\nfast FTL should be in a Wolfe world, and how much fuel it should take. It is\nlikely that FTL tech was delivered by extraterrestrial explorers in \"An Evil\nGuest\" -- and that the secret of the location of Woldercan was delivered\nalong with it." } ] }, { "message_id": "<004f01ca3829$8a9add20$d4ce4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2009-09-18T06:30:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Cassie as the Ambassador's wife", "in_reply_to": "<1bf4dd40909161830r5d20bacao479347b332225867@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dave Tallman wrote:\nMy reconstruction of the time travel would go more like this:\n1) Cassie's original 20+ hop trip to Woldercan involved no time-travel." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "She" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "met with Gideon Chase, as planned, but learned there was no way to restore\nher mojo. (She might shoot him at this point).\n2) Using Woldercan resources (talking fish, Woldercan natives, etc.) she\nfinds out how to do time travel. She takes big hopper with lots of fuel\nand\nuses it to go into the past, to Earth.\n3) The time is before the appointment of Bill Reis as ambassador. She\nfinds\na way to court and marry Bill. Tricky, but she knows a lot about him and\nwhat he likes.\n4) They travel to Woldercan together. She takes the picture (p. 301),\nwhich\nexplains why she isn't in it. Bill says the old amabassador was kind to\nhim\nand his wife (not family), so there is no son yet." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That picture would have been just 11-12 years in the past for Klauser. He\nshould have recognized the woman who came to his house to ask advice." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "5) Rian is conceived. When the boy is born there are medical troubles.\nCassie knows they can only be resolved on Earth, so she leaves. She uses\nthe\ntime-travel trick again. Rian will be the right age if she does this, and\nthat may be the purpose (time-looped history reconstruction). Her\ntime-travel will inspire Bill to learn to do the same trick." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If Cassie could travel back in time, why didn't she go back in time just far\nenough to do something to avoid Bill getting clubbed to death? All she had\nto do was to make sure they would not be on the island that night. That's\nso easy, and it would have spared them all their grief. Just go back about a\nyear. She lands her big fancy new hopper on the beach on the island where\nshe and Bill went to be alone, the one they were on when they decided to get\nmarried. Whip out a sales receipt for the diamonds and a few newscast clips\nof the coming storm. She could hardly be ignored.\n\nBill and Cassie need not make any big changes or take any chances. They\ncould have used his hopper to hop over to Paris for dinner or something on\nthe day he would have died. Problem solved." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "6) She spends the next 18 or so years raising Rian. The boy is her life." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "she's Pavlatos, she also remarries and does some boating, etc.\n7) This gets her to about ago 50. Rian is gone -- empty nest. Maybe he\ndies,\nkilled by Bill's enemies.\n8) She broods again on the past and decides to try to shake it up as\nMargaret. She gets the old ship back from where-ever she stashed it and\ndoes\none more trip deeper into the past.\n9) She uses another ten years to establish herself as Margaret the\ndresser.\nNow she's in her 60's." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why didn't Reis recognize her as his ex-wife? Yeah, she's aged, but still." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "10) Her attempt to change the past fails, so she ends up sad and alone." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "She" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "knows her younger self will repeat the cycle." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Either the past can be changed or it can't. If Margaret was ever our Cassie,\nthen she has Cassie's memories of Margaret, just as we have their\ninteractions recorded in the book. If, from Margaret's perspective, she can\nchange *anything*, even something as minor as what she ordered for breakfast\non page 153, then the past can be changed. If not, she is stuck in a time\nloop.\n\nMy point is that Cassie/Margaret need not waste all that time and energy\nestablishing a false identity just to get close to her younger self and\nfigure out if she could change things. After all, Margaret exercised very\nlittle influence on Cassie, and was out of the picture half-way through the\nbook. For example, Cassie/Margaret would know about the coming abduction of\nMargaret, since Cassie had lived it. All a future self would have to do is\nnot get in Zelda's hopper that day, and Zelda didn't even want Margaret to\ncome because the hopper only seated four. She had no freewill? She didn't\nknow what was coming?\n\nIn the Urth Cycle and FREE LIVE FREE, Wolfe made provisions to avoid two\nversions of the same person being in the same place at the same time. To do\notherwise leads to endless plot complications and paradoxes. Why would he\nmake an exception in AEG?\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4AB34713.5080401@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-09-18T08:38:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG and Dr. Lao", "in_reply_to": "<860638.16549.qm@web37604.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Craig Brewer wrote:\nHas it ever been noted before that Woldercon/Woldercan is the name of the mythical city to be summoned in Finney's Circus of Dr. Lao?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I believe Russell Wodell was the first to mention it here, just under a \nyear ago." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0909180338o19f32dfdta85bf77266574456@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-09-18T10:38:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Cassie as the Ambassador's wife", "in_reply_to": "<004f01ca3829$8a9add20$d4ce4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 2:30 AM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\n\nIn the Urth Cycle and FREE LIVE FREE, Wolfe made provisions to avoid two\nversions of the same person being in the same place at the same time. To do\notherwise leads to endless plot complications and paradoxes. Why would he\nmake an exception in AEG?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not to go down the rabbit hole, but after Pirate Freedom, I have a tough\ntime buying this particular point." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-Roy\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4AB397D1.2050305@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2009-09-18T14:23:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Cassie as the Ambassador's wife", "in_reply_to": "<004f01ca3829$8a9add20$d4ce4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nThat picture would have been just 11-12 years in the past for Klauser. He\nshould have recognized the woman who came to his house to ask advice.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Unless, as Adam Thornton suggested, she had learned to do a glamour by \nthen (or some form of werewolf shape-shifting)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If Cassie could travel back in time, why didn't she go back in time just far\nenough to do something to avoid Bill getting clubbed to death? All she had\nto do was to make sure they would not be on the island that night. That's\nso easy, and it would have spared them all their grief. Just go back about a\nyear. She lands her big fancy new hopper on the beach on the island where\nshe and Bill went to be alone, the one they were on when they decided to get\nmarried. Whip out a sales receipt for the diamonds and a few newscast clips\nof the coming storm. She could hardly be ignored.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "She could have considered doing that, but it might not have saved them \nfrom other dooms arranged by Gideon Chase. She seems to have decided \nthat he needed to be eliminated very early on (after enhancing Cassie, \nof course). This is under the theory that Margaret was Chase's shooter." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why didn't Reis recognize her as his ex-wife? Yeah, she's aged, but still.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Again I'll fall back on werewolf shape-shifting. I have no doubt that \nMargaret is a werewolf." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Either the past can be changed or it can't. If Margaret was ever our Cassie,\nthen she has Cassie's memories of Margaret, just as we have their\ninteractions recorded in the book. If, from Margaret's perspective, she can\nchange *anything*, even something as minor as what she ordered for breakfast\non page 153, then the past can be changed. If not, she is stuck in a time\nloop.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If the past cannot be changed there is no argument to be made. No matter \nif something else would have been more clever or worked better, Margaret \nwill not be able to do it. Poor Cassie can't even think this over, \ndecide it would be futile, and change her mind about going back as \nMargaret. She's trapped all the way through." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In the Urth Cycle and FREE LIVE FREE, Wolfe made provisions to avoid two\nversions of the same person being in the same place at the same time. To do\notherwise leads to endless plot complications and paradoxes. Why would he\nmake an exception in AEG?\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The personal replacement in FREE LIVE FREE was a one-book experiment, \nallowing huge amounts of time-rewriting without hundreds of copies \nrunning into each other. Pirate Freedom does allow temporal copies to \nmeet, and it does allow for changing the past (I think; Ignacio's part \ncould be a thought of as a stable time-loop, but Bram Burt and Lesage \nprobably did some active changing and re-iterating to get things just \nright)." } ] }, { "message_id": "<004801ca388e$8e223b40$b8cf4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2009-09-18T18:33:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Cassie as the Ambassador's wife", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0909180338o19f32dfdta85bf77266574456@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "John Watkins quoted and wrote:\nIn the Urth Cycle and FREE LIVE FREE, Wolfe made provisions to avoid two\nversions of the same person being in the same place at the same time. To\ndo\notherwise leads to endless plot complications and paradoxes. Why would\nhe\nmake an exception in AEG?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not to go down the rabbit hole, but after Pirate Freedom, I have a tough\ntime buying this particular point." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Point taken.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<004f01ca388e$c0e19080$b8cf4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2009-09-18T18:35:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Cassie as the Ambassador's wife", "in_reply_to": "<4AB397D1.2050305@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dave Tallman wrote:\nShe could have considered doing that, but it might not have saved them\nfrom other dooms arranged by Gideon Chase. She seems to have decided\nthat he needed to be eliminated very early on (after enhancing Cassie,\nof course). This is under the theory that Margaret was Chase's shooter." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm sure I've said this before, but Gid repeatedly referred to the shooter\nwith masculine pronouns." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why didn't Reis recognize her as his ex-wife? Yeah, she's aged, but\nstill." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Again I'll fall back on werewolf shape-shifting. I have no doubt that\nMargaret is a werewolf." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gid also said that it is easy for a shape-changer to slip back \"down\", so\neasy that \"werewolves have trouble maintaining their human forms at times.\"\n(100) Getting hit in the face with a meat cleaver is pretty traumatic, quite\nenough so, it seems to me, to lose control. Besides, within a couple hours\nof the shooting, Margaret showed up at Cassie's place and had no visible\nwound.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0909181136i3ee7765dpa2d83173ddcb91c6@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-09-18T18:36:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Cassie as the Ambassador's wife", "in_reply_to": "<004801ca388e$8e223b40$b8cf4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I should have also said that I agree with you that Margaret is not an\niteration of Cassie." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 2:33 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nJohn Watkins quoted and wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "In the Urth Cycle and FREE LIVE FREE, Wolfe made provisions to avoid\ntwo\nversions of the same person being in the same place at the same time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To\ndo\notherwise leads to endless plot complications and paradoxes. Why would\nhe\nmake an exception in AEG?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Not to go down the rabbit hole, but after Pirate Freedom, I have a tough\ntime buying this particular point." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Point taken.\n\n-Roy\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4AB434DA.3090306@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2009-09-19T01:33:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Cassie as the Ambassador's wife", "in_reply_to": "<004f01ca388e$c0e19080$b8cf4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\n/ She could have considered doing that, but it might not have saved them\n/>/ from other dooms arranged by Gideon Chase. She seems to have decided\n/>/ that he needed to be eliminated very early on (after enhancing Cassie,\n/>/ of course). This is under the theory that Margaret was Chase's shooter." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "/\nI'm sure I've said this before, but Gid repeatedly referred to the shooter\nwith masculine pronouns." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure how good a look Gid got. Also, isn't Wolfe of the old \nschool on pronouns? He doesn't go in for the \"him or her\" stuff much." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gid also said that it is easy for a shape-changer to slip back \"down\", so\neasy that \"werewolves have trouble maintaining their human forms at times.\"\n(100) Getting hit in the face with a meat cleaver is pretty traumatic, quite\nenough so, it seems to me, to lose control. Besides, within a couple hours\nof the shooting, Margaret showed up at Cassie's place and had no visible\nwound.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If the shooter is anyone we know or see later (and it should be, to be a \nfair mystery), then they should either have an injured face or be of a \ntype of creature known to regenerate rapidly. Werewolves in legend can \nheal rapidly from any wounds not made with silver weapons. We never see \nanyone with an injured face. So the shooter is someone we never see \nagain (unfair) or Margaret." } ] }, { "message_id": "<003001ca395e$bdc69e60$3fd14a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2009-09-19T19:23:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Cassie as the Ambassador's wife", "in_reply_to": "<4AB434DA.3090306@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dave Tallman quoted and wrote:\nI'm sure I've said this before, but Gid repeatedly referred to the\nshooter\nwith masculine pronouns." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not sure how good a look Gid got. Also, isn't Wolfe of the old\nschool on pronouns? He doesn't go in for the \"him or her\" stuff much." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I went to the same school of pronouns , but that's not the case here. \"I\nsaw the man who shot me. He didn't resemble John. It wasn't his face or his\nbody type. As for it being a friend of his, I doubt it very much. His\nfriends are good shots, and this man wasn't\" (203)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If the shooter is anyone we know or see later (and it should be, to be a\nfair mystery), then they should either have an injured face or be of a\ntype of creature known to regenerate rapidly. Werewolves in legend can\nheal rapidly from any wounds not made with silver weapons. We never see\nanyone with an injured face. So the shooter is someone we never see\nagain (unfair) or Margaret." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know what the answer is, but Gid said the shooter was a man. He\ncould be lying, but why? Transformation \"up\" or \"down\" is mentioned, but not\nsideways. That is, there is nothing to indicate that a human could transform\nhimself (see, old-school pronoun) to look like another human, even of the\nsame gender.\n\nMargaret might be a werewolf but, shooter or not, if she is, where does it\nshow up in the story? The only demonstrable werewolf I know of is Al, the\nfake FBI agent.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4AB53C1E.6020801@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2009-09-19T20:16:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Cassie as the Ambassador's wife", "in_reply_to": "<003001ca395e$bdc69e60$3fd14a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nI don't know what the answer is, but Gid said the shooter was a man. He\ncould be lying, but why? Transformation \"up\" or \"down\" is mentioned, but not\nsideways. That is, there is nothing to indicate that a human could transform\nhimself (see, old-school pronoun) to look like another human, even of the\nsame gender.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On page 99 \"Are you aware of shape-changers? Werewolves and their \nilk?... Some human beings can transform themselves, Cassie. The cells of \ntheir bodies rearrange themselves... Wolves, dogs and leopards are the \nmost common forms... The most common forms but not the only forms.\" It \nlooks to me like Wolfe has given us some leeway to have other sorts of \nshape-changers, with possible multiple human forms." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Margaret might be a werewolf but, shooter or not, if she is, where does it\nshow up in the story? The only demonstrable werewolf I know of is Al, the\nfake FBI agent.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "True, but the detailed description of werewolf traits on p. 206 invites \nus to find another werewolf. Here are a few of the clues I found most \nconvincing, drawn from one of my theory pages on the WolfeWiki \n(\"Mysterious Margaret\"):\n\n 1. There's the clue of the werewolf's \"swift loping walk, even in\n women.\" (p. 206). Margaret bobs along (p. 59). Does any other\n female character have a unique walk described?\n 2. She is gray (p. 54) with a colorless face (p. 57). Werewolves\n \"dress in wolf shades: gray, black, and white.\" (p. 206).\n 3. They are also insensitive to color (p. 206). Margaret fails to get\n a straw for Cassie's drink (p. 57), indicating she doesn't care\n much about lipstick. She describes a costume which shows skin in\n the middle as \"spring-green\" (p. 107), but the costume that is\n spring-green is the long missionary gown (p. 190). The costume\n that shows ten inches of bare waist features a faux-grass skirt\n (p. 131). This would be grass-green, not spring-green. Perhaps\n Margaret can't tell the difference.\n 4. She avoids an obvious word when misreporting the name of Sharon\n Bench as \"Shirley Ladydog\" (p. 86). As a werewolf female she might\n be extra-sensitive to this word.\n 5. Werewolves have a hard time avoiding slipping back to wolf form\n (p. 100). They also \"want the wild and a liberation from human\n morality\" (p. 207). Margaret's scrupulous morality may be an\n effort to avoid slipping back. Her elaborate trick with the napkin\n to avoid a direct lie is an example of this (pp. 82-83).\n 6. Margaret always has yogurt and fruit for breakfast (p. 186). She\n may avoid eating meat to keep from setting off her wolf nature." } ] }, { "message_id": "<478B1F33-FB86-4943-9810-1AC572121C61@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-09-19T20:20:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Cassie as the Ambassador's wife", "in_reply_to": "<4AB53C1E.6020801@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sep 19, 2009, at 3:16 PM, Dave Tallman wrote:\nMargaret always has yogurt and fruit for breakfast (p. 186). She\n may avoid eating meat to keep from setting off her wolf nature." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "O GAWD MY WIFE IS A WEREWOLF!\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<001d01ca39b1$864a6ea0$62cf4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2009-09-20T05:16:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Cassie as the Ambassador's wife", "in_reply_to": "<4AB53C1E.6020801@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dave Tallman quoted and wrote:\nMargaret might be a werewolf but, shooter or not, if she is, where does\nit\nshow up in the story? The only demonstrable werewolf I know of is Al,\nthe\nfake FBI agent." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "True, but the detailed description of werewolf traits on p. 206 invites\nus to find another werewolf. Here are a few of the clues I found most\nconvincing, drawn from one of my theory pages on the WolfeWiki\n(\"Mysterious Margaret\"):\n\n 1. There's the clue of the werewolf's \"swift loping walk, even in\n women.\" (p. 206). Margaret bobs along (p. 59). Does any other\n female character have a unique walk described?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Ebony bobbed like a cork in India's wake.\" (p. 143) That matches up nicely\nwith your \". . . and Margaret bobbing in her wake\" on p. 59." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " 2. She is gray (p. 54) with a colorless face (p. 57). Werewolves\n \"dress in wolf shades: gray, black, and white.\" (p. 206).\n 3. They are also insensitive to color (p. 206). Margaret fails to get\n a straw for Cassie's drink (p. 57), indicating she doesn't care\n much about lipstick. She describes a costume which shows skin in\n the middle as \"spring-green\" (p. 107), but the costume that is\n spring-green is the long missionary gown (p. 190). The costume\n that shows ten inches of bare waist features a faux-grass skirt\n (p. 131). This would be grass-green, not spring-green. Perhaps\n Margaret can't tell the difference.\n 4. She avoids an obvious word when misreporting the name of Sharon\n Bench as \"Shirley Ladydog\" (p. 86). As a werewolf female she might\n be extra-sensitive to this word." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If Margaret is a future Cassie, then she knows perfectly well *both* of\nSharon's names. Why stumble on Sharon? Like Mrs. Baker in FLF, she just gets\nthings wrong. She called a safe-deposit box a \"safety deposit.\" (153)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " 5. Werewolves have a hard time avoiding slipping back to wolf form\n (p. 100). They also \"want the wild and a liberation from human\n morality\" (p. 207). Margaret's scrupulous morality may be an\n effort to avoid slipping back. Her elaborate trick with the napkin\n to avoid a direct lie is an example of this (pp. 82-83)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The known werewolf, Al, had a very agressive human personality. Margaret is\nmeek and mild." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " 6. Margaret always has yogurt and fruit for breakfast (p. 186). She\n may avoid eating meat to keep from setting off her wolf nature." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Post-castaway Cassie said, \"I don't think I'll ever eat fish or fruit\nagain.\" (288) Margaret could have eaten cereal. And she at least nibbled on\na ham and cheese sandwich. (141-42)\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4AB5C60E.2050903@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2009-09-20T06:05:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Cassie as the Ambassador's wife", "in_reply_to": "<001d01ca39b1$864a6ea0$62cf4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nIf Margaret is a future Cassie, then she knows perfectly well *both* of\nSharon's names. Why stumble on Sharon? Like Mrs. Baker in FLF, she just gets\nthings wrong. She called a safe-deposit box a \"safety deposit.\" (153)\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's a little *too* wrong. Shirley and Sharon don't sound much alike. \nShe's just pretending not to know Cassie's friend. And her averted \nchoice of last name may indicate what she thinks of Sharon at this \npoint. There's nothing wrong with \"safety deposit.\" That's an alternate \nname for the same thing, in common use today." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The known werewolf, Al, had a very agressive human personality. Margaret is\nmeek and mild.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And if this is Cassie, she's an actress. Margaret is a bit too meek, too \nscrupulously honest, and too good to be true." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Post-castaway Cassie said, \"I don't think I'll ever eat fish or fruit\nagain.\" (288) Margaret could have eaten cereal. And she at least nibbled on\na ham and cheese sandwich. (141-42)\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The fruit for breakfast is one point against Margaret being Cassie, but \nit's not a complete refutation. She could chose to do this for economy, \nto avoid gaining weight, or as a quirk chosen as part of her role." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4AB7A576.3020205@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2009-09-21T16:10:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG Cassie's food choices", "in_reply_to": "<4AB5C60E.2050903@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was puzzling over Cassie's statement that she didn't think she would \never eat fish or fruit again (288). It seemed inconsistent with my \ntheory that she was Margaret, since Margaret had fruit and yogurt for \nbreakfast every day.\n\nBut Cassie constantly changes her mind about what she will and won't \neat. She accepts anchovy toast from Klauser, and seems to really enjoy \nit. So much for the fish resolution. It seems to be a red herring.\n\nIt would be interesting to track all the things Cassie eats. She \ndeclares she is watching her weight, and will eat nothing but \"cooked \nveggies, raw veggies, bottled water, and maybe a little fruit\" (p. 135). \nBut all the way through the book she breaks this resolution. She orders \ndouble sherbet papaya delight (p. 27), a hot pastrami sandwich with lots \nof meat (p. 54), anchovy fritters (p. 61), cookies (p. 142), rock \nlobster in drawn butter (p. 228), and other fattening treats. Yet she \ndoes stay very thin, even while she thinks of herself as fat. It makes \nme think she might be bulimic.\n\nIn any case, she could easily get over her fruit aversion after a \nreasonable period of time (just as she is shown to have gotten over her \nfish aversion) so it's no bar to her being Margaret." } ] }, { "message_id": "<6BB8E035-E15E-4133-9D9A-CB392D160EA4@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-09-21T16:49:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG Cassie's food choices", "in_reply_to": "<4AB7A576.3020205@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sep 21, 2009, at 11:10 AM, Dave Tallman wrote:\n\nIn any case, she could easily get over her fruit aversion after a \nreasonable period of time (just as she is shown to have gotten over \nher fish aversion) so it's no bar to her being Margaret." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Anyone else here read _The Rise of Endymion_ ? Those of you who have \nwill know why the time-loop is making me think of it.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4AB7D280.1010601@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2009-09-21T19:22:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG Cassie's food choices", "in_reply_to": "<6BB8E035-E15E-4133-9D9A-CB392D160EA4@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Adam Thornton wrote:\nAnyone else here read _The Rise of Endymion_ ? Those of you who have \nwill know why the time-loop is making me think of it.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, I've read it. The protagonist, Raul, is jealous when his \ntime-traveling girlfriend Aenea tells him she has been married and had a \nchild. Later he realizes the husband must have been his future self. \nThat's a good fit for the \"Cassie as the Ambassador's wife\" scenario." } ] }, { "message_id": "<58CA2574-F78E-4C5E-BD2C-4B7DDC887170@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-09-21T20:13:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG Cassie's food choices", "in_reply_to": "<4AB7D280.1010601@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sep 21, 2009, at 2:22 PM, Dave Tallman wrote:\nAdam Thornton wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Anyone else here read _The Rise of Endymion_ ? Those of you who \nhave will know why the time-loop is making me think of it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, I've read it. The protagonist, Raul, is ..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dude, SPOILER WARNING!\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<719322.88438.qm@web84406.mail.ac2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Stephen Hoy", "address": "stephenhoy at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-09-30T05:39:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG in NYRSF", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0909150703n520c9e28vd0d43b5824944074@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A few days ago, John Watkins, agreeing with James Wyatt about a quality of the president in AEG, wrote:\n< I thought the character's speech patterns were recognizably those of George W. Bush as well. >\n\nThe speech pattern is recognizably Texan, but the one-on-one button-holing?is much more LBJ's style than?any recent US president. For me, the key discriminant is the President's assistant. I think I mentioned awhile ago that the aide likely has a link with MPAA president Jack Valenti?who was LBJ's closest aide. Valenti passed away in 2007, possibly stimulating Wolfe to place an analog of LBJ/Valenti in AEG. Valenti's showbiz connection fits nicely with an idols of the theater allusion in the same chapter of AEG, when the president quotes the first line of Bacon's essay On Truth." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4AC36B2B.6030505@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2009-09-30T14:28:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG in NYRSF", "in_reply_to": "<719322.88438.qm@web84406.mail.ac2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't see the theatrical connection between the quote \"What is truth? \nasked jesting Pilate...\" and the presidential assistant John. Is it \nbecause of the Bacon/Shakespeare connection? This seems a big stretch." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4AC37015.8000300@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2009-09-30T14:49:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Another werewolf?", "in_reply_to": "<001d01ca39b1$864a6ea0$62cf4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\n\"Ebony bobbed like a cork in India's wake.\" (p. 143) That matches up nicely\nwith your \". . . and Margaret bobbing in her wake\" on p. 59.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It appears that Ebony White is another good werewolf candidate. Look at \nher name: werewolves are associated with the colors gray, black, and \nwhite (p. 206) and her name is as black-and-white as you can get. She \nbobs along like Margaret, so we have the loping walk. She never gets fat \n(p. 59), possibly a sign of a high animal metabolism. She eats terrine \nde lievre (terrine of hare) on that same page. Other food choices \ninclude a BLT (p. 141, has bacon), and a breakfast with a side of \nsausage and ham (p. 186, shades of the Three Little Pigs?). She spent \nextra time in jail before being released when Margaret was taken -- \npossibly they were deciding which of the two werewolves was the most \ndangerous one?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-09-30T14:50:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG in NYRSF", "in_reply_to": "<719322.88438.qm@web84406.mail.ac2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A few days ago, John Watkins, agreeing with James Wy[nn] about a quality of \nthe\npresident in AEG, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I thought the character's speech patterns were recognizably\nthose of George W. Bush as well." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The speech pattern is recognizably Texan, but the one-on-one button-holing\nis much more LBJ's style than any recent US president. For me, the key\ndiscriminant is the President's assistant. I think I mentioned awhile ago \nthat\nthe aide likely has a link with MPAA president Jack Valenti who was LBJ's\nclosest aide." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hmmm....\"forty plus, and starting to get fat. The thick, round lenses of his \nglasses\"...\nThis does not make me think of Jack Valenti. But it did call to mind Karl \nRove. Not a one-to-one comparison any more than the president was. But it \nwas difficult not to imagine Rove while reading this scene.\n\nI really didn't see the one-on-one conversation as excluding GWB or \ninclining more to LBJ. It's just the sort of thing any President would do.\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<003c01ca425b$ad326a60$c8ce4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2009-10-01T05:54:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Another werewolf?", "in_reply_to": "<4AC37015.8000300@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dave Tallman wrote:\nRoy C. Lackey wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"Ebony bobbed like a cork in India's wake.\" (p. 143) That matches up\nnicely\nwith your \". . . and Margaret bobbing in her wake\" on p. 59." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It appears that Ebony White is another good werewolf candidate. Look at\nher name: werewolves are associated with the colors gray, black, and\nwhite (p. 206) and her name is as black-and-white as you can get. She\nbobs along like Margaret, so we have the loping walk. She never gets fat\n(p. 59), possibly a sign of a high animal metabolism. She eats terrine\nde lievre (terrine of hare) on that same page. Other food choices\ninclude a BLT (p. 141, has bacon), and a breakfast with a side of\nsausage and ham (p. 186, shades of the Three Little Pigs?)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "She eats some form of pork at almost every meal mentioned, if not all. So\nhow can she eat meat all the time, unlike Margaret, if they are both\nwerewolves? You said before that werewolf Margaret didn't eat meat because\nshe feared slipping to the animal state.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4AC4491C.3090000@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2009-10-01T06:15:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Another werewolf?", "in_reply_to": "<003c01ca425b$ad326a60$c8ce4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nShe eats some form of pork at almost every meal mentioned, if not all. So\nhow can she eat meat all the time, unlike Margaret, if they are both\nwerewolves? You said before that werewolf Margaret didn't eat meat because\nshe feared slipping to the animal state.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, Ebony eats pork at almost every meal, except when she has hare, \nanother wolf prey. I was wrong about Margaret never eating meat. She \nalso consumes pork at times. At the same meal where Ebony had a BLT, \nMargaret had a Ham and Swiss sandwich. Margaret tempers her animal \nappetites with more milk proteins, I suppose." } ] } ] }