{
  "export": {
    "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5489",
    "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it.  Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.",
    "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'"
  },
  "archive": "urth",
  "thread": {
    "id": 5489,
    "subject": "AEG: Dr. Lao and Woldercan",
    "messages": 5,
    "voices": 4,
    "first": "2009-09-21T05:53:33+00:00",
    "last": "2009-09-22T07:13:49+00:00"
  },
  "messages": [
    {
      "message_id": "<001001ca3a7f$df731800$e6d34a0c@rclackey>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Roy C. Lackey",
        "address": "rclackey at stic.net"
      },
      "date": "2009-09-21T05:53:33+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) AEG: Dr. Lao and Woldercan",
      "in_reply_to": null,
      "reply_link": null,
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "Back on the 14th, Allan Anderson wrote:\nTo snip a perhaps apropos phrase from Dr. Lao's Wikipedia summary,\"..the\nmythical city of 'Woldercan', populated by doubles of the townfolk...\""
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "This was in the context of the spelling of Woldercan, so perhaps not enough\nattention was paid to it. A day or two later, I googled the quote and found\nout that the Wikipedia summary in question is of the movie, not the book. So\nI researched the book online for a while and concluded that the mentioned\n\"doubles\" were not in the book. I may be wrong about that; I just don't\nknow.\n\nAnyway, I was disappointed because, if there were some sort of analogs of\npeople on Woldercan, that would be a simple solution to the problem James\nWynn has raised about what Wolfe could have meant by his remark about\nCassie going to Woldercan to find Reis. I doubted that Wolfe would have\nreferenced the movie, rather than the book, upon which it is only loosely\nbased. So I blew it off.\n\nThen I was reminded that Wolfe used references from the Oz movie in FLF, so\nI may have been wrong to dismiss the possibility of him using the movie\nversion of Dr. Lao as a source in AEG. If there are duplictes of humans on\nWoldercan, it eliminates the need for hypothetical time travel and other\nproblematic solutions.\n\nWhat say you?\n\n-Roy"
        }
      ]
    },
    {
      "message_id": "<4AB79EC2.1080108@gmail.com>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Dave Tallman",
        "address": "davetallman at msn.com"
      },
      "date": "2009-09-21T15:41:54+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) AEG: Dr. Lao and Woldercan",
      "in_reply_to": "<001001ca3a7f$df731800$e6d34a0c@rclackey>",
      "reply_link": "header",
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote"
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "Then I was reminded that Wolfe used references from the Oz movie in FLF, so\nI may have been wrong to dismiss the possibility of him using the movie\nversion of Dr. Lao as a source in AEG. If there are duplictes of humans on\nWoldercan, it eliminates the need for hypothetical time travel and other\nproblematic solutions.\n  "
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "I find that solution very unsatisfying. Even if Woldercan contains \nduplicates of everyone on Earth (highly problematic -- how could such a \nwild place support them?) or duplicates of humans who came there (a \nlittle better -- it could be the original or an impostor who returns), \nhow could Cassie be sure that the double would love her, or be enough \nlike Bill for her to love?\n\nThe movie does have  a feature that might be a clue. It's called \"The \nSeven Faces of Dr. Lao\" because Tony Randall plays seven parts. This is \nprobably another indication that the main characters play multiple roles."
        }
      ]
    },
    {
      "message_id": "<264AC8BBA0AE4A04B3F24C0DD0EC4782@eMachinePC>",
      "from": {
        "name": "James Wynn",
        "address": "crushtv at gmail.com"
      },
      "date": "2009-09-21T16:01:37+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) AEG: Dr. Lao and Woldercan",
      "in_reply_to": "<4AB79EC2.1080108@gmail.com>",
      "reply_link": "header",
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 2,
          "text": " If there are duplictes of humans on\nWoldercan, it eliminates the need for hypothetical time travel and other\nproblematic solutions."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "I find that solution very unsatisfying. Even if Woldercan contains \nduplicates of everyone on Earth (highly problematic -- how could such a \nwild place support them?) or duplicates of humans who came there (a little \nbetter -- it could be the original or an impostor who returns), how could \nCassie be sure that the double would love her, or be enough like Bill for \nher to love?"
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "If Wolfe intended this in his reference to the Woldercon of Dr. Lao, then I \nwould presume that he intended it as a place like St. Anne, where being \ncopied by native was a genuine possibility, maybe even a likely one, \nalthough probably not a foregone conclusion. If it were a *real* copy then \nit will love her because the real Reis did--if not immediately then when it \nlearns that Reis loved her. This a lesson to be derived from The Fifth Head \nof Cerberus and the Whorl Chronicles (Long & Short Sun). If it is the *real* \nReis, then the Cassie is relying on the quality of the copy.\n\nHmmm...in the first chapter of AEG, Chase makes copies of some photographs \nof Reis, tears up the originals. If this is intended as a metaphor then it \ndoes not bode well for the originals of any copies made on Woldercan. \nPerhaps *none* of the Reis's Cassie meets are real and the Reis she is going \nto find is not real either.\n\nJ. "
        }
      ]
    },
    {
      "message_id": "<803921.61451.qm@web32407.mail.mud.yahoo.com>",
      "from": {
        "name": "don doggett",
        "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com"
      },
      "date": "2009-09-22T04:56:29+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) AEG: Dr. Lao and Woldercan",
      "in_reply_to": "<001001ca3a7f$df731800$e6d34a0c@rclackey>",
      "reply_link": "header",
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "--- On Sun, 9/20/09, Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net> wrote: \nThen I was reminded that Wolfe used references from the Oz\nmovie in FLF, so\nI may have been wrong to dismiss the possibility of him\nusing the movie\nversion of Dr. Lao as a source in AEG. If there are\nduplictes of humans on\nWoldercan, it eliminates the need for hypothetical time\ntravel and other\nproblematic solutions.\n\nWhat say you?"
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "I'd say that Wolfe tends to appropriate and redefine any bit of literature and pop culture that appeals to him, and that he is of just the right generation to have been a fan of the movie as well as the book. On the other hand, he does mention Charles Finney (the author of the The Circus of Dr. Lao) by name in AEG, so that tends to skew things towards the book. I own a few copies of it and no, the townsfolk are not duplicated in the novel. It's a wonderful book, Roy, if you haven't read it, and it has influenced many great writers, most notably Ray Bradbury. It definitely belongs in the canon of classic fantastic fiction.\n\nDon\n\n\n      "
        }
      ]
    },
    {
      "message_id": "<001301ca3b54$3edf6580$3ccf4a0c@rclackey>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Roy C. Lackey",
        "address": "rclackey at stic.net"
      },
      "date": "2009-09-22T07:13:49+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) AEG: Dr. Lao and Woldercan",
      "in_reply_to": "<803921.61451.qm@web32407.mail.mud.yahoo.com>",
      "reply_link": "header",
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 2,
          "text": "\"don doggett\" wrote:\nI'd say that Wolfe tends to appropriate and redefine any bit of\nliterature and pop culture that appeals to him, and that he is of just the\nright generation to have been a fan of the movie as well as the book. On the\nother hand, he does mention Charles Finney (the author of the The Circus of\nDr. Lao) by name in AEG, so that tends to skew things towards the book. I\nown a few copies of it and no, the townsfolk are not duplicated in the\nnovel. It's a wonderful book, Roy, if you haven't read it, and it has\ninfluenced many great writers, most notably Ray Bradbury. It definitely\nbelongs in the canon of classic fantastic fiction.<<"
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "Thanks, Don. I has been too many years since I read the book or saw the\nmovie, and I didn't remember Woldercan at all.\n\n-Roy"
        }
      ]
    }
  ]
}