{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5491", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5491, "subject": "Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "messages": 105, "voices": 16, "first": "2009-09-21T23:26:58+00:00", "last": "2009-12-21T20:35:22+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-09-21T23:26:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Saw a relatively new Wolfe blog in my Google Alerts:\nhttp://silk4calde.blogspot.com/\n\nhttp://silk4calde.blogspot.com/2009/09/its-official-i-have-thesis-topic.html\n\n\"After a fruitful meeting with my honours supervisor this afternoon, I\nhave finally settled on a specific topic for my honours thesis! My\nintention was always to write something on religion in Gene Wolfe's\nsolar cycle (or sun cycle, or Urth cycle... I'm not sure anyone can\nagree on what it is called), but I had trouble deciding exactly what\nto focus on.\"\n\nWe just call it the Briah cycle around here, don't we?\n\n\" I narrowed the possible areas of study down to three topics:\n1.The religion of The Book of the Long Sun as a parody of Catholicism.\n2.Patera Silk and the role of the priest in science fiction.\n3.Patera Silk as messiah figure — particularly as compared to\nSeverian, the protagonist of BotNS, who is cruel and malicious, unlike\nthe truly 'good' character of Silk, but is also explicitly a messiah\nfigure.\nAfter much deliberation I have settled on the second topic, which\nlends itself well to a comparative study with other texts, and also\noffers a promising three-chapter breakdown. In brief, I plan to\ncontend that there are two dominant uses of the priest protagonists in\nSF:\n1.To affirm the priest's faith / religion and its positive effect\n(e.g. the missionary goes to an alien planet, converts its\ninhabitants, and brings peace and utopia to all).\n2.To debunk the priest's faith and expose it as false (e.g. by having\nthe priest discover something that has him renounce his faith).\nThese will provide the topics for the first two chapters of my thesis.\nIn the third, I will address Wolfe's use of the priest protagonist in\nBotLS, which I will put forth as an interesting and unique case.\"\n\nSeems like a worthwhile thesis, although I wonder whether those 2\npriest archetypes are quite so universal - such a categorization would\nhave difficulty with Frank Herbert, I think." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370909211704g1f4bf189x7e152cbba77cee08@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-09-22T00:04:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 4:26 PM, Gwern Branwen wrote:\n\nSeems like a worthwhile thesis, although I wonder whether those 2\npriest archetypes are quite so universal - such a categorization would\nhave difficulty with Frank Herbert, I think." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "... and Arthur Clarke (\"The Star\") ... and Dan Simmons (Hyperion) ... and\nMary Doria Russell (The Sparrow) ... and Peter F. Hamilton (the Night's Dawn\ntrilogy) ... and Walter M. Miller (A Canticle for Leibowitz) ... and Tony\nBoucher (\"The Quest for St. Aquin\") ... and ...\n\nThe makings of at least one excellent doctoral thesis lies in the image of\nthe (Catholic) priest in SF. However, this person's thesis ain't it." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-09-22T03:12:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370909211704g1f4bf189x7e152cbba77cee08@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 8:04 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n\n\nOn Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 4:26 PM, Gwern Branwen wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Seems like a worthwhile thesis, although I wonder whether those 2\npriest archetypes are quite so universal - such a categorization would\nhave difficulty with Frank Herbert, I think." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "... and Arthur Clarke (\"The Star\") ... and Dan Simmons (Hyperion) ... and\nMary Doria Russell (The Sparrow) ... and Peter F. Hamilton (the Night's Dawn\ntrilogy) ... and Walter M. Miller (A Canticle for Leibowitz) ... and Tony\nBoucher (\"The Quest for St. Aquin\") ... and ..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah yes, how could I forget Father Dure? Although arguably the rest of\nSimmons' Catholic Church falls neatly into the lie category." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The makings of at least one excellent doctoral thesis lies in the image of\nthe (Catholic) priest in SF. However, this person's thesis ain't it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This sort of thing is one reason I avoid literature research: of the\ndozens of thousands of SF works, is a few dozen works (say) which\navoid the 2 standard storylines enough to render Wolfe's similar\navoidance not newsworthy, or to invalidate the division into 2\nstandard storylines? What *is* the standard for good literature\nresearch?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern" } ] }, { "message_id": "<370421.87684.qm@web50705.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-09-22T05:34:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370909211704g1f4bf189x7e152cbba77cee08@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Mon, 9/21/09, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOn Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 4:26 PM,\nGwern Branwen wrote:\nSeems like a worthwhile thesis, although I wonder whether\nthose 2\npriest archetypes are quite so universal - such a\ncategorization would\nhave difficulty with Frank Herbert, I think.\n\n\n... and Arthur Clarke (\"The Star\")" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's been a long time, but I have the impression the\nnarrator's faith was shaken, not stirred.\n\nDo the priests or monks in \"The Nine Billion Names of\nGod\" count?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "... and Dan\nSimmons (Hyperion) ... and Mary Doria Russell (The Sparrow)\n... and Peter F. Hamilton (the Night's Dawn trilogy) ...\nand Walter M. Miller (A Canticle for Leibowitz) ... and Tony\nBoucher (\"The Quest for St. Aquin\") ... and ..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You've got some points there (as best I remember those\nbooks and stories)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The makings of at least one excellent doctoral thesis lies\nin the image of the (Catholic) priest in SF. However, this\nperson's thesis ain't it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Definitely not, if I'm right in thinking this is an\nundergrad thesis. However, hope is a virtue, I'm told.\nMaybe he'll get out of his stereotypes by doing the\nresearch.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<3306B551-9B74-41C4-A201-76CE02ADEAF7@optusnet.com.au>", "from": { "name": "Zachary Kendal", "address": "zackendal at optusnet.com.au" }, "date": "2009-09-22T08:32:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "<370421.87684.qm@web50705.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 22/09/2009, at 3:34 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\n--- On Mon, 9/21/09, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 4:26 PM,\nGwern Branwen wrote:\nSeems like a worthwhile thesis, although I wonder whether\nthose 2\npriest archetypes are quite so universal - such a\ncategorization would\nhave difficulty with Frank Herbert, I think.\n\n\n... and Arthur Clarke (\"The Star\")" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's been a long time, but I have the impression the\nnarrator's faith was shaken, not stirred.\n\nDo the priests or monks in \"The Nine Billion Names of\nGod\" count?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "... and Dan\nSimmons (Hyperion) ... and Mary Doria Russell (The Sparrow)\n... and Peter F. Hamilton (the Night's Dawn trilogy) ...\nand Walter M. Miller (A Canticle for Leibowitz) ... and Tony\nBoucher (\"The Quest for St. Aquin\") ... and ..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You've got some points there (as best I remember those\nbooks and stories)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The makings of at least one excellent doctoral thesis lies\nin the image of the (Catholic) priest in SF. However, this\nperson's thesis ain't it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Definitely not, if I'm right in thinking this is an\nundergrad thesis. However, hope is a virtue, I'm told.\nMaybe he'll get out of his stereotypes by doing the\nresearch.\n\nJerry Friedman" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ouch! But I should probably introduce myself before taking up my own \ndefence: Hi, I'm Zac, and, yes, I'm doing a thesis on Gene Wolfe. I \nknow I really should have introduced myself earlier - before my blog \nbecame a topic of discussion (you couldn't have known I was lurking \naround the Urth mailing list) - but I was a little intimidated by how \nmuch everyone here seems to know about Wolfe's work.\n\nAnyway, I'll re-post here what I wrote on my blog in defence of my \nthesis topic (slightly edited to fit this context):\n\n\"Thank you for your feedback. I fully acknowledge that I have a lot of \nresearch still to do - indeed, I have hardly begun. I also know that \nthese broad categories I have set out above may not hold up under \nscrutiny - and like 99% of people writing theses, I will probably end \nup writing something quite different to that which I had originally \nplanned.\n\n\"I should have been clearer in my original post, but these crude \n'stereotypes' are what I *currently* have the impression are dominant. \nI gather, from the limited research I have already done, that most SF \nwith priests as protagonists (not peripheral or minor characters) \neither use the priest to challenge (or shake or debunk) the priest's \nfaith, or to have it reaffirmed. These two categories are, of course, \ngeneralisations.\n\n\"I *plan* to argue that Wolfe finds a middle ground between these two \n*dominant* approaches to the priest. That he manages to do both debunk \n*and* affirm aspects of Catholicism (ritual vs. spiritual?). I do not \nplan to argue that no other author has ever done the same and \nchallenged these two approaches.\n\n\"Thank you very much for your recommended texts - I'm currently in the \nprocess of planning my summer reading, and some of these were not yet \non my list. And I will welcome any texts that may challenge these \n'stereotypes' of mine.\n\n\"It may also have been unclear in my post that this is an \nundergraduate thesis - a 15,000 word thesis that I will do in 2010 for \nmy honours degree (we do things differently in Australia, I think). \nWhile the broad topic of the (Catholic) priest in SF would provide \nplenty to study for a PhD thesis, I am very restricted in both the \ntime I have to research, and the length of my finished thesis.\"\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes - I'm not entirely sure you have any right to be so \nnegative about my thesis since (a) I haven't written it, and (b) you \nhaven't read it. For all you know, my thesis could shake the \nfoundations of SF studies and completely change the world... well, \nalright, I highly doubt that too - but it could happen?\n\nI realise that it is not very fair that I was reading these posts \nwithout your knowing, and I apologise. I would warmly welcome any \nconstructive criticism that anyone might have. I am passionate about \nWolfe's writing, and have been wanting to write on his work since I \nstarted my degree. Not much scholarship seems to have been written on \nSilk and BotLS, so I thought I would investigate how Wolfe uses his \npriest in an original and exciting way - since I believe that Wolfe is \nan important (and newsworthy, as gwern said) SF author... I'm sure \nthat we can all agree on that much at least :)\n\nCheers,\nZac" } ] }, { "message_id": "<57247.88837.qm@web50703.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-09-22T14:44:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "<3306B551-9B74-41C4-A201-76CE02ADEAF7@optusnet.com.au>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Tue, 9/22/09, Zachary Kendal wrote:\nOn 22/09/2009, at 3:34 PM, Jerry\nFriedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "--- On Mon, 9/21/09, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 4:26 PM,\nGwern Branwen \nwrote:\nSeems like a worthwhile thesis, although I wonder\nwhether\nthose 2\npriest archetypes are quite so universal - such a\ncategorization would\nhave difficulty with Frank Herbert, I think.\n\n\n... and Arthur Clarke (\"The Star\")" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's been a long time, but I have the impression the\nnarrator's faith was shaken, not stirred.\n\nDo the priests or monks in \"The Nine Billion Names of\nGod\" count?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "... and Dan\nSimmons (Hyperion) ... and Mary Doria Russell (The\nSparrow)\n... and Peter F. Hamilton (the Night's Dawn\ntrilogy) ...\nand Walter M. Miller (A Canticle for Leibowitz)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "... and Tony\nBoucher (\"The Quest for St. Aquin\") ... and ..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You've got some points there (as best I remember\nthose\nbooks and stories)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The makings of at least one excellent doctoral\nthesis lies\nin the image of the (Catholic) priest in SF." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "However, this\nperson's thesis ain't it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Definitely not, if I'm right in thinking this is an\nundergrad thesis. However, hope is a virtue, I'm\ntold.\nMaybe he'll get out of his stereotypes by doing the\nresearch.\n\nJerry Friedman" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ouch!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm sorry I caused you to say that. I would defend my\nuse of \"stereotypes\", but after your clarification, it\nseems pointless." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But I should probably introduce myself before taking\nup my own defence: Hi, I'm Zac, and, yes, I'm doing a thesis\non Gene Wolfe. I know I really should have introduced myself\nearlier - before my blog became a topic of discussion (you\ncouldn't have known I was lurking around the Urth mailing\nlist) - but I was a little intimidated by how much everyone\nhere seems to know about Wolfe's work.\n\nAnyway, I'll re-post here what I wrote on my blog in\ndefence of my thesis topic (slightly edited to fit this\ncontext):" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"I should have been clearer in my original post, but these\ncrude 'stereotypes' are what I *currently* have the\nimpression are dominant. I gather, from the limited research\nI have already done, that most SF with priests as\nprotagonists (not peripheral or minor characters) either use\nthe priest to challenge (or shake or debunk) the priest's\nfaith, or to have it reaffirmed. These two categories are,\nof course, generalisations.\n\n\"I *plan* to argue that Wolfe finds a middle ground between\nthese two *dominant* approaches to the priest. That he\nmanages to do both debunk *and* affirm aspects of\nCatholicism (ritual vs. spiritual?). I do not plan to argue\nthat no other author has ever done the same and challenged\nthese two approaches.\n\n\"Thank you very much for your recommended texts - I'm\ncurrently in the process of planning my summer reading," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Speaking of stereotypes, I thought, \"Summer reading?\nIsn't this due in 2010? Oh. Never mind.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"It may also have been unclear in my post that this is an\nundergraduate thesis - a 15,000 word thesis that I will do\nin 2010 for my honours degree (we do things differently in\nAustralia, I think)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\n\nUndergrad theses are known here in America--I wrote one.\n(I trust yours well be better than mine was.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I realise that it is not very fair that I was reading these\nposts without your knowing, and I apologise." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I hope that was irony. We all know people lurk on\nmailing lists, and you linked to this list at your site,\nso there's nothing to apologize for. I don't know\nwhether I need to apologize for using a less harsh word\nat your blog than I did here--no harm was done by my\ntwo faces, since you saw both." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I would warmly\nwelcome any constructive criticism that anyone might have." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're in the right place." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I\nam passionate about Wolfe's writing, and have been wanting\nto write on his work since I started my degree." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Still in the right place.\n\nAnyway, best of luck with this project!\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<0B1704BE-B464-4041-BCD9-A6D8D8C03055@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-09-22T15:39:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "<3306B551-9B74-41C4-A201-76CE02ADEAF7@optusnet.com.au>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sep 22, 2009, at 3:32 AM, Zachary Kendal wrote:\n\"I should have been clearer in my original post, but these crude \n'stereotypes' are what I *currently* have the impression are \ndominant. I gather, from the limited research I have already done, \nthat most SF with priests as protagonists (not peripheral or minor \ncharacters) either use the priest to challenge (or shake or debunk) \nthe priest's faith, or to have it reaffirmed. These two categories \nare, of course, generalisations.\n\n\"I *plan* to argue that Wolfe finds a middle ground between these \ntwo *dominant* approaches to the priest. That he manages to do both \ndebunk *and* affirm aspects of Catholicism (ritual vs. spiritual?). \nI do not plan to argue that no other author has ever done the same \nand challenged these two approaches." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To apply a slightly different crude overgeneralization: if you're \nmaking a priest a major figure, then there's presumably a *reason* for \nthat choice, and that reason has something to do with his being a \npriest, rather than, say, a fat guy, or a redhead.\n\nAt which point, you're probably committed to doing *something* with \nhis faith. Shaking (perhaps to death) and reaffirming are the two \nobvious things to do.\n\nI suppose this wouldn't be true in a book where *everyone* (or at \nleast, many of the major characters) are clergy and therefore the \ndifference is in particulars of theology rather than being-a-priest-or- \nnot. For examples of this, _Name of the Rose_, _Endymion_, and \n_Anathem_ all come to mind.\n\nSomething I'd *really* like to see someone play with is: why is such a \nlarge proportion of religion-oriented SF Catholic? If it reflects the \nbackground of the authors, then why are Catholics overrepresented in \nSF authorship (and, concomitantly, why are there relatively few Jewish \nSF stories) ? I mean, just off the top of my head:\n\n_A Canticle for Leibowitz_, _A Case of Conscience_ (which really is \ndire), _Hyperion/Endymion_, \"The Star\", much of Wolfe's work. \nWhere's, for example, the Lutheran SF? (If I were being snarky I'd \nask and answer where the Baptist SF was.) Or even specifically \n*Protestant* Christian SF?\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370909220947n1817a921g9bc157bd030add87@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-09-22T16:47:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "<3306B551-9B74-41C4-A201-76CE02ADEAF7@optusnet.com.au>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Zac,\n\nWelcome aboard.\n\nI had no idea that this was an undergrad thesis - I've barely even heard of\nthose. To me, the word \"thesis\" conveys images of Ph.D.\n\nI'm also sorry I was so harsh, but truly, I can't think of a single\nsignificant SF text that _does_ fit the description you give. The closest\nthing I can think of is the Curate in H.G. Wells' \"The War of the Worlds,\"\nwhich is proto-SF in the meaning of the act. (SF proper really begins with\nHugo Gernsback's identifying it as a genre, giving it a name, and providing\nit with a home, first in _The Electrical Expermenter_ and then in _Amazing\nStories_.)\n\nThere are plenty of SF writers who are blatantly hostile to religion, but\nthey don't seem to use priests as characters all that much.\n\nI'd be interested in examples of what you're describing.\n\n--Dan'l" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 1:32 AM, Zachary Kendal\nwrote:\nOn 22/09/2009, at 3:34 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\n\n --- On Mon, 9/21/09, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 4:26 PM,\nGwern Branwen wrote:\nSeems like a worthwhile thesis, although I wonder whether\nthose 2\npriest archetypes are quite so universal - such a\ncategorization would\nhave difficulty with Frank Herbert, I think.\n\n\n... and Arthur Clarke (\"The Star\")" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's been a long time, but I have the impression the\nnarrator's faith was shaken, not stirred.\n\nDo the priests or monks in \"The Nine Billion Names of\nGod\" count?\n\n ... and Dan\nSimmons (Hyperion) ... and Mary Doria Russell (The Sparrow)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "... and Peter F. Hamilton (the Night's Dawn trilogy) ...\nand Walter M. Miller (A Canticle for Leibowitz) ... and Tony\nBoucher (\"The Quest for St. Aquin\") ... and ..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You've got some points there (as best I remember those\nbooks and stories).\n\n The makings of at least one excellent doctoral thesis lies\nin the image of the (Catholic) priest in SF. However, this\nperson's thesis ain't it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Definitely not, if I'm right in thinking this is an\nundergrad thesis. However, hope is a virtue, I'm told.\nMaybe he'll get out of his stereotypes by doing the\nresearch.\n\nJerry Friedman" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ouch! But I should probably introduce myself before taking up my own\ndefence: Hi, I'm Zac, and, yes, I'm doing a thesis on Gene Wolfe. I know I\nreally should have introduced myself earlier - before my blog became a topic\nof discussion (you couldn't have known I was lurking around the Urth mailing\nlist) - but I was a little intimidated by how much everyone here seems to\nknow about Wolfe's work.\n\nAnyway, I'll re-post here what I wrote on my blog in defence of my thesis\ntopic (slightly edited to fit this context):\n\n\"Thank you for your feedback. I fully acknowledge that I have a lot of\nresearch still to do - indeed, I have hardly begun. I also know that these\nbroad categories I have set out above may not hold up under scrutiny - and\nlike 99% of people writing theses, I will probably end up writing something\nquite different to that which I had originally planned.\n\n\"I should have been clearer in my original post, but these crude\n'stereotypes' are what I *currently* have the impression are dominant. I\ngather, from the limited research I have already done, that most SF with\npriests as protagonists (not peripheral or minor characters) either use the\npriest to challenge (or shake or debunk) the priest's faith, or to have it\nreaffirmed. These two categories are, of course, generalisations.\n\n\"I *plan* to argue that Wolfe finds a middle ground between these two\n*dominant* approaches to the priest. That he manages to do both debunk *and*\naffirm aspects of Catholicism (ritual vs. spiritual?). I do not plan to\nargue that no other author has ever done the same and challenged these two\napproaches.\n\n\"Thank you very much for your recommended texts - I'm currently in the\nprocess of planning my summer reading, and some of these were not yet on my\nlist. And I will welcome any texts that may challenge these 'stereotypes' of\nmine.\n\n\"It may also have been unclear in my post that this is an undergraduate\nthesis - a 15,000 word thesis that I will do in 2010 for my honours degree\n(we do things differently in Australia, I think). While the broad topic of\nthe (Catholic) priest in SF would provide plenty to study for a PhD thesis,\nI am very restricted in both the time I have to research, and the length of\nmy finished thesis.\"\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes - I'm not entirely sure you have any right to be so\nnegative about my thesis since (a) I haven't written it, and (b) you haven't\nread it. For all you know, my thesis could shake the foundations of SF\nstudies and completely change the world... well, alright, I highly doubt\nthat too - but it could happen?\n\nI realise that it is not very fair that I was reading these posts without\nyour knowing, and I apologise. I would warmly welcome any constructive\ncriticism that anyone might have. I am passionate about Wolfe's writing, and\nhave been wanting to write on his work since I started my degree. Not much\nscholarship seems to have been written on Silk and BotLS, so I thought I\nwould investigate how Wolfe uses his priest in an original and exciting way\n- since I believe that Wolfe is an important (and newsworthy, as gwern said)\nSF author... I'm sure that we can all agree on that much at least :)\n\nCheers,\nZac\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9345170FD49045BE9B48CEC93F8C4328@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-09-22T17:05:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370909220947n1817a921g9bc157bd030add87@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(SF proper really begins with Hugo Gernsback's identifying it as a genre,\ngiving it a name, and providing it with a home, first\nin _The Electrical Expermenter_ and then in _Amazing Stories_.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Tut-tut. I suppose Edith Hamilton invented mythology. And Young Adult \nFiction began with Barnes & Noble labeling a section by that name in their \nstores.\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<85007.4981.qm@web50706.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-09-22T18:29:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "<0B1704BE-B464-4041-BCD9-A6D8D8C03055@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'll start by recommending Richard Cowper's trilogy /The\nWhite Bird of Kinship/, both for Zac's thesis and as\nsomething I liked. (I can be a little sentimental at\ntimes, though.) If you find a copy of volume 1, /The\nRoad to Corlay/, that doesn't start with the story\n\"Piper at the Gates of Dawn\", you should track that\nstory down and read it first.\n\nThough if you really want suggestions, Zac, you could\nask in rec.arts.sf.written if you haven't already." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Tue, 9/22/09, Adam Thornton wrote:\nOn Sep 22, 2009, at 3:32 AM, Zachary Kendal wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"I should have been clearer in my original post, but\nthese crude 'stereotypes' are what I *currently* have the\nimpression are dominant. I gather, from the limited research\nI have already done, that most SF with priests as\nprotagonists (not peripheral or minor characters) either use\nthe priest to challenge (or shake or debunk) the priest's\nfaith, or to have it reaffirmed. These two categories are,\nof course, generalisations." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To apply a slightly different crude overgeneralization: if\nyou're making a priest a major figure, then there's\npresumably a *reason* for that choice, and that reason has\nsomething to do with his being a priest, rather than, say, a\nfat guy, or a redhead.\n\nAt which point, you're probably committed to doing\n*something* with his faith. Shaking (perhaps to death)\nand reaffirming are the two obvious things to do." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\n\nSo why did Wolfe make Chris a priest in /Pirate Freedom/?\nJust for plot convenience? To say some some things about\ncontemporary Catholicism? To give him vows to break?\n(This is a real question, not a rhetorical challenge to\nyour argument.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Something I'd *really* like to see someone play with is:\nwhy is such a large proportion of religion-oriented SF\nCatholic?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Catholicism is more colorful than most Western religions.\nIt's got rituals, saints, vestments, cathedrals, celibates\n(who can break their vows), a hierarchy, and more. And as\nthe storyteller in \"The Tale of the Rose and the Nightingale\"\npoints out, color is a requisite for a good story.\n\nCatholicism goes with medieval and pseudo-medieval settings,\nwhich are popular. The RC Church a worldwide organization,\nwhich makes it suitable as a conspiracy (for good or evil).\n\nAlso, until recent decades, Catholicism was more pervasive\nin American Catholics' lives than Protestantism in American\nProtestants'. If I may be forgiven a stereotype, being\nwhacked by nuns can give one deeper feelings about one's\nreligion than being hushed during sermons.\n\nRecently, conservative Protestant denominations have been\ntrying to close the pervasiveness gap. As a result, once\nin a while there's a magazine story set during Vacation\nBible School or some such (and maybe fewer stories where\nfundamentalism is the root of all evil)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If it reflects the background of the\nauthors, then why are Catholics overrepresented in SF\nauthorship (and, concomitantly, why are there relatively few\nJewish SF stories) ?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Catholics outnumber Jews in the United States by a factor\nof more than 10.\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_demographics#Religious_affiliation\n\nGetting numbers for other countries is more work that I'm\nwilling to do, but the proportion for the UK might be fairly\nsimilar." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I mean, just off the top of my head:\n\n_A Canticle for Leibowitz_, _A Case of Conscience_ (which\nreally is dire), " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I liked it, at least the ending. So it's scientifically\nridiculous--whaddya want?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hyperion/Endymion_, \"The Star\", much of\nWolfe's work. Where's, for example, the Lutheran SF?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As one of Robertson Davies's characters points out,\nProtestantism has inspired great music, but not a single\ngreat painting. (Have I mentioned that I like Robertson\nDavies?)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(If I were being snarky I'd ask and answer where\nthe Baptist SF was.)? Or even specifically *Protestant*\nChristian SF?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's Heinlein: \"If This Goes On--\" and \"Job\", neither\nof which is favorable to evangelical Protestantism, if I\nmay understate.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370909221149h12f31355q8f269b0fef702965@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-09-22T18:49:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "<0B1704BE-B464-4041-BCD9-A6D8D8C03055@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 8:39 AM, Adam Thornton wrote:\nSomething I'd *really* like to see someone play with is: why is such a\nlarge proportion of religion-oriented SF Catholic?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One reason is that Catholicism is the Big Dog of Christianity. There is no\nProtestant sect that comes near Catholicism in terms of total membership;\nthus, if you want to present a generic Christian, a Catholic is the logical\nchoice.\n\nIn addition, there is a huge and interesting dynamic between Catholicism,\nspecifically, and science. Catholicism is the most \"rationalistic\" of the\nChristian religions, with its theology heavily based on the Aristoteleanism\nof St Thomas Aquinas. Yet Catholicism is -- or was, until fundamentalism\nreared its head and began resenting biology and geology -- the sect which\nhas the most significant history of conflict with science and rationalism\n(can you say Galileo? I knew you could).\n\nPlus, as Jerry observed below, there is all the nifty colorful baggage that\ncomes with Catholicism - though if that's what you're looking for, Eastern\nOrthodoxy is even better.\n\n\nIf it reflects the background of the authors, then why are Catholics" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "overrepresented in SF authorship (and, concomitantly, why are there\nrelatively few Jewish SF stories) ? I mean, just off the top of my head:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Relatively few Jewish SF stories? Heavens, man, what about Asimov's \"Robot\"\nstories? Those are all basically Talmudic disputation.\n\nThere are two excellent anthologies of Jewish SF edited by Jack Dann in the\n'70s, \"Wandering Stars\" and \"More Wandering Stars.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Where's, for example, the Lutheran SF? (If I were being snarky I'd ask and\nanswer where the Baptist SF was.) Or even specifically *Protestant*\nChristian SF?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can't think of any Lutheran SF offhand, but there's an excellent Quaker SF\nnovel called \"Pennterra\" by Judith Moffatt." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370909221151t7357ccbfh40b97bab2bbff228@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-09-22T18:51:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370909221149h12f31355q8f269b0fef702965@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Additional thought:\n\nGenre SF is an American phenomenon (in origin). SF is about exoticism. To\nthe largely Protestant and Jewish kids who formed the \"golden age\" writers\nbloc, Catholicism was fairly exotic, Judaism less so, and Protestantism, as\nthe American mainstream culture, not at all." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<44fb53d10909221332o58bee7f6meb1191b66d48bc02@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-09-22T20:32:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370909221151t7357ccbfh40b97bab2bbff228@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 2:51 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nAdditional thought:\n\nGenre SF is an American phenomenon (in origin). SF is about exoticism. To\nthe largely Protestant and Jewish kids who formed the \"golden age\" writers\nbloc, Catholicism was fairly exotic, Judaism less so, and Protestantism, as\nthe American mainstream culture, not at all.\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If we're going this direction, it might be significant that many\nCatholic sf writers are converts. Walter Miller Jr. converted to, and\nlater from, Catholicism. Wolfe was a convert. Though I guess Tim\nPowers comes from a Catholic family.\n\nTo move on to more general comments:\n\nIf you want something \"light\" to look at, you might want to glance at\nSpace Vulture, co-authored by Gary K. Wolf and the Archbishop of\nNewark. SF by a priest!\n\nAlso, some \"mainstream\" Catholic writers have stories that have a sf\nelements. I believe Graham Greene has a story called \"The Last Word\"\nabout the last pope. I suppose that veers towards sf? Evelyn Waugh has\nLove Amongst the Ruins: A Romance of the Near Future, which was\noriginally published independently as a novel but now appears in\nComplete Short Stories.\n\nCharles Williams might also be interesting to look at. I don't think\nhe was Catholic, but he certainly knew one or two influential Catholic\nwriters...\nhttp://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/the_tls/article4164208.ece\n\nZac - I nearly did an undergraduate honors thesis on a similar topic,\nbut decided I would take extra classes instead. Good luck with yours.\n\n-Matt" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8325.67.142.130.24.1253658535.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-09-22T22:28:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370909221149h12f31355q8f269b0fef702965@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Orson Scott Card has written some very interesting Mormon based stuff.\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 8:39 AM, Adam Thornton wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Something I'd *really* like to see someone play with is: why is such a\nlarge proportion of religion-oriented SF Catholic?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "One reason is that Catholicism is the Big Dog of Christianity. There is no\nProtestant sect that comes near Catholicism in terms of total membership;\nthus, if you want to present a generic Christian, a Catholic is the\nlogical\nchoice.\n\nIn addition, there is a huge and interesting dynamic between Catholicism,\nspecifically, and science. Catholicism is the most \"rationalistic\" of the\nChristian religions, with its theology heavily based on the\nAristoteleanism\nof St Thomas Aquinas. Yet Catholicism is -- or was, until fundamentalism\nreared its head and began resenting biology and geology -- the sect which\nhas the most significant history of conflict with science and rationalism\n(can you say Galileo? I knew you could).\n\nPlus, as Jerry observed below, there is all the nifty colorful baggage\nthat\ncomes with Catholicism - though if that's what you're looking for, Eastern\nOrthodoxy is even better.\n\n\nIf it reflects the background of the authors, then why are Catholics\noverrepresented in SF authorship (and, concomitantly, why are there\nrelatively few Jewish SF stories) ? I mean, just off the top of my\nhead:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Relatively few Jewish SF stories? Heavens, man, what about Asimov's\n\"Robot\"\nstories? Those are all basically Talmudic disputation.\n\nThere are two excellent anthologies of Jewish SF edited by Jack Dann in\nthe\n'70s, \"Wandering Stars\" and \"More Wandering Stars.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Where's, for example, the Lutheran SF? (If I were being snarky I'd ask\nand\nanswer where the Baptist SF was.) Or even specifically *Protestant*\nChristian SF?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I can't think of any Lutheran SF offhand, but there's an excellent Quaker\nSF\nnovel called \"Pennterra\" by Judith Moffatt.\n\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8678.67.142.130.24.1253658807.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-09-22T22:33:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370909221151t7357ccbfh40b97bab2bbff228@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not in NYC, which dominated the publishing biz, let alone the genre\npublishing biz, in the early to mid twentieth. In the NYC where I grew up,\nJews and Catholics were normal: white people were either one or the other,\nwhite Protestants were strange. Protestants is what you expected black\nfolks to be.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Additional thought:\n\nGenre SF is an American phenomenon (in origin). SF is about exoticism. To\nthe largely Protestant and Jewish kids who formed the \"golden age\" writers\nbloc, Catholicism was fairly exotic, Judaism less so, and Protestantism,\nas\nthe American mainstream culture, not at all.\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6130A739-7D14-4925-843F-100BC5431DC3@optusnet.com.au>", "from": { "name": "Zachary Kendal", "address": "zackendal at optusnet.com.au" }, "date": "2009-09-22T23:15:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370909220947n1817a921g9bc157bd030add87@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 23/09/2009, at 2:47 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nZac,\n\nWelcome aboard.\n\nI had no idea that this was an undergrad thesis - I've barely even \nheard of those. To me, the word \"thesis\" conveys images of Ph.D.\n\nI'm also sorry I was so harsh, but truly, I can't think of a single \nsignificant SF text that _does_ fit the description you give. The \nclosest thing I can think of is the Curate in H.G. Wells' \"The War \nof the Worlds,\" which is proto-SF in the meaning of the act. (SF \nproper really begins with Hugo Gernsback's identifying it as a \ngenre, giving it a name, and providing it with a home, first in _The \nElectrical Expermenter_ and then in _Amazing Stories_.)\n\nThere are plenty of SF writers who are blatantly hostile to \nreligion, but they don't seem to use priests as characters all that \nmuch.\n\nI'd be interested in examples of what you're describing.\n\n--Dan'l" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hi Dan'l, and thanks for the welcome.\n\nI fear I was unclear in my original blog posting, but those examples I \ngave of the 'positive' and 'negative' use of the priest as protagonist \nwere extremes (and intended to be taken that way). I'll post a \nclarified thesis topic to my blog today later today, which should sort \nout some of this confusion.\n\nI'd consider Clarke's \"The Star\" to be a fairly clear example of the \n'negative' use of the priest in SF (i.e. in order to shake the \npriest's faith). I know the Jesuit narrator doesn't explicitly \nrenounce his faith altogether - he may well retain his belief in the \nexistence of God (the extraordinary 'coincidence' of the supernova \nbeing the star of Bethlehem would suggest this) - but his idea of an \nall loving and merciful God is greatly challenged (and, indeed, I \nbelieve his faith is profoundly shaken to say the least). It's not an \nuncommon SF motif for Got to be revealed as incredibly evil (often an \nincredibly evil parasite - hell, Stargate SG1 milked this theme for 10 \nseasons and 3 films!).\n\nMiller's \"A Canticle for Leibowitz\", as a whole, focuses on the \nChurch, not the priest (singular) and his personal journey of faith, \nwhich is what I will be focusing on. While it is a fantastic book, I \ndon't believe it will be referred to much in my thesis." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As Adam Thornton wrote:\nTo apply a slightly different crude overgeneralization: if you're \nmaking a priest a major figure, then there's presumably a *reason* \nfor that choice, and that reason has something to do with his being \na priest, rather than, say, a fat guy, or a redhead.\n\nAt which point, you're probably committed to doing *something* with \nhis faith. Shaking (perhaps to death) and reaffirming are the two \nobvious things to do." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Adam seems to have described my decision well :) rejection/shaking or \nreaffirmation of faith are the two obvious reasons to have a priest as \na protagonist. The very purpose of my *doing* research is to see \nwhether or not these are the two *dominant* uses of the priest. I \nshould also be clear here, I am only looking at SF works with a priest \nas the main or central character, where his faith / spiritual journey \nis an important part of the story. And I do believe that some SF \nauthors hostile to religion choose to have a priest protagonist \n(especially narrator) - this is usually done in order to attack or \ndebunk religion from 'within' (i.e. Clarke?).\n\nZac" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20090922235148.GH3883@broggs.org>", "from": { "name": "Jeffrey Brent McBeth", "address": "mcbeth at broggs.org" }, "date": "2009-09-22T23:51:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "<8325.67.142.130.24.1253658535.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 06:28:55PM -0400, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nOrson Scott Card has written some very interesting Mormon based stuff." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I find his style too much Perelandra and Anthem and not enough Middle\nEarth and Brave New World. I love Wolfe and Chesterton and Tolkien\nand ... precicely because while the author's beliefs are there in all\nof them, there is more than just a didactic exercise in the latter.\n\nJeff" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "----------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\"The man who does not read good books has no advantage over \n the man who cannot read them.\"\n -- Mark Twain\n----------------------------------------------------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<630118.80569.qm@web54404.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Nathan Spears", "address": "spearofsolomon at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-12-18T07:27:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "<20090922235148.GH3883@broggs.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think that Card became didactic until his later years. I found Seventh Son to be much more The King Must Die than Atlas Shrugged. I didn't know he was a Mormon when I read it, and even after I found out I can still enjoy it because it isn't a soapbox." } ] }, { "message_id": "<871553.85747.qm@web54406.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Nathan Spears", "address": "spearofsolomon at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-12-18T08:21:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370909221149h12f31355q8f269b0fef702965@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is pure speculation on my part, as I was raised Protestant, so please forgive me if I stereotype.\n\n1. SF authors are interested in, um, science. Science being a logical and repeatable method for explaining the universe. Expanding on that idea, many SF authors (Wolfe, for instance) are interested not just in the results, but in the nature of logic, rationality, thought, memory, etc.\n2. Protestantism has vague boundaries to many of its practitioners. Ask ten Baptists what they believe and you will probably get eleven answers. The clergy in Protestant churches are likely to be well-educated, informed about and invested in their system of belief, but their parishioners much less so (the first two at least). There is also much less an idea of a \"clergy lifestyle\" - pastors are very free to pursue their own agendas outside of their pastoral duties, and opinions vary widely as to what is permissible. Drinking, smoking, dancing, hunting, parties, etc. Opinions vary widely on these topics, even within one denomination.\n3. As an earlier poster pointed out, Catholicism has a lot of trappings, but I wanted to point out that it also has a more uniform belief system, with predefined actions, rituals, etc, and (I think) a clergyman is much more likely to have a \"clergy lifestyle\" across the Catholic church. So, as a symbol a priest has a more universal power and greater accessibility than a pastor does, because many of his attributes and attitudes are known. At least their stereotypes are known.\n\nSorry for rambling and chasing rabbits (I'm really tired), but my main point was this: it must appeal to many authors to be able to play two systems against each other to see where they are consonant and dissonant. This is, I believe, a summary of the proposed thesis. Because Catholicism seems a more defined system than, say, Methodism or Judaism (where it's much more likely that believers will pick and choose their doctrines), and the priest a more universal symbol, I would think those aspects would appeal to an author looking to juxtapose religion with science.\n\nOk, one more try: Catholicism is much more like a religious science than many other religions. That's all I wanted to add to The Big Dog theory.\n\nThe temptation to provide a false dichotomy between religion and science often proves too strong for the zealous author. Too strong for a good story, at least. One theme of Wolfe's that would bear mention in your proposed thesis is religion as a humanizing element. Wolfe is aware of the powerful benevolent moral influence of religion as well as the terrible things that it can achieve. Most of the \"negative\" religion in SF that you mention comes from authors who believe (as best I can make out) that rationality should be sufficient to conquer our moral problems, who discount religion's benevolent influence as trivial at best, and who have in their minds a scale with the Inquisition, the Crusades, suicide bombers, Mayan sacrifice, etc on one side, and nothing on the other.\n\nAnyway in Wolfe when the priest finds his faith shaken or confirmed, it is often this humanizing process - he must confront what about his faith he can continue to believe, what he finds truly important, what is worth believing, whether he will continue to believe it whether or not there is any proof of it, etc. These are the same questions that we all confront about our beliefs if we are to shape them into something worth believing, whether or not they are religious. I also wonder how much of Silk's journey is an analog to Wolfe's own - I feel that I can see Wolfe's shadow on Silk, as he makes a deliberate choice to believe even when it seems foolhardy and dense. I often feel the same way in my faith so maybe I'm just projecting." } ] }, { "message_id": "<13799.72.171.0.146.1261148391.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-12-18T14:59:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "<630118.80569.qm@web54404.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Card's early short work, which mostly appeared in OMNI, was really, raelly\ngood. He is, at worst, readable.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think that Card became didactic until his later years. I found\nSeventh Son to be much more The King Must Die than Atlas Shrugged. I\ndidn't know he was a Mormon when I read it, and even after I found out I\ncan still enjoy it because it isn't a soapbox.\n\n\n\n\n________________________________\nFrom: Jeffrey Brent McBeth \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Tue, September 22, 2009 5:51:48 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis\n\nOn Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 06:28:55PM -0400, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Orson Scott Card has written some very interesting Mormon based stuff." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I find his style too much Perelandra and Anthem and not enough Middle\nEarth and Brave New World. I love Wolfe and Chesterton and Tolkien\nand ... precicely because while the author's beliefs are there in all\nof them, there is more than just a didactic exercise in the latter.\n\nJeff\n\n--\n----------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\"The man who does not read good books has no advantage over\nthe man who cannot read them.\"\n-- Mark Twain\n----------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\n\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<14135.72.171.0.146.1261148656.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-12-18T15:04:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "<871553.85747.qm@web54406.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Orthodox Christianity (including Catholicism) is Christianity. The forms\nof Protestantism are Christianity with various bits sliced off.\n\nChristianity began by being a coherent expression of the common ancient\nWorldview with a particular theological slant upon it.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is pure speculation on my part, as I was raised Protestant, so please\nforgive me if I stereotype.\n\n1. SF authors are interested in, um, science. Science being a logical\nand repeatable method for explaining the universe. Expanding on that\nidea, many SF authors (Wolfe, for instance) are interested not just in the\nresults, but in the nature of logic, rationality, thought, memory, etc.\n2. Protestantism has vague boundaries to many of its practitioners. Ask\nten Baptists what they believe and you will probably get eleven answers.\nThe clergy in Protestant churches are likely to be well-educated, informed\nabout and invested in their system of belief, but their parishioners much\nless so (the first two at least). There is also much less an idea of a\n\"clergy lifestyle\" - pastors are very free to pursue their own agendas\noutside of their pastoral duties, and opinions vary widely as to what is\npermissible. Drinking, smoking, dancing, hunting, parties, etc. Opinions\nvary widely on these topics, even within one denomination.\n3. As an earlier poster pointed out, Catholicism has a lot of trappings,\nbut I wanted to point out that it also has a more uniform belief system,\nwith predefined actions, rituals, etc, and (I think) a clergyman is much\nmore likely to have a \"clergy lifestyle\" across the Catholic church. So,\nas a symbol a priest has a more universal power and greater accessibility\nthan a pastor does, because many of his attributes and attitudes are\nknown. At least their stereotypes are known.\n\nSorry for rambling and chasing rabbits (I'm really tired), but my main\npoint was this: it must appeal to many authors to be able to play two\nsystems against each other to see where they are consonant and dissonant.\nThis is, I believe, a summary of the proposed thesis. Because Catholicism\nseems a more defined system than, say, Methodism or Judaism (where it's\nmuch more likely that believers will pick and choose their doctrines), and\nthe priest a more universal symbol, I would think those aspects would\nappeal to an author looking to juxtapose religion with science.\n\nOk, one more try: Catholicism is much more like a religious science than\nmany other religions. That's all I wanted to add to The Big Dog theory.\n\nThe temptation to provide a false dichotomy between religion and science\noften proves too strong for the zealous author. Too strong for a good\nstory, at least. One theme of Wolfe's that would bear mention in your\nproposed thesis is religion as a humanizing element. Wolfe is aware of\nthe powerful benevolent moral influence of religion as well as the\nterrible things that it can achieve. Most of the \"negative\" religion in\nSF that you mention comes from authors who believe (as best I can make\nout) that rationality should be sufficient to conquer our moral problems,\nwho discount religion's benevolent influence as trivial at best, and who\nhave in their minds a scale with the Inquisition, the Crusades, suicide\nbombers, Mayan sacrifice, etc on one side, and nothing on the other.\n\nAnyway in Wolfe when the priest finds his faith shaken or confirmed, it is\noften this humanizing process - he must confront what about his faith he\ncan continue to believe, what he finds truly important, what is worth\nbelieving, whether he will continue to believe it whether or not there is\nany proof of it, etc. These are the same questions that we all confront\nabout our beliefs if we are to shape them into something worth believing,\nwhether or not they are religious. I also wonder how much of\nSilk's journey is an analog to Wolfe's own - I feel that I can see Wolfe's\nshadow on Silk, as he makes a deliberate choice to believe even when it\nseems foolhardy and dense. I often feel the same way in my faith so maybe\nI'm just projecting.\n\n\n\n\n________________________________\nFrom: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes " } ] }, { "message_id": "<769545.6506.qm@web180207.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "John Smith", "address": "jsmith2627 at att.net" }, "date": "2009-12-18T15:13:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "<14135.72.171.0.146.1261148656.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, EXCUUUUUUUSE me! ? Martin Luther, John Calvin and their followers would beg to differ.\n\nBest wishes,\n\n\n\nJack the Protestant\n\n--- On Fri, 12/18/09, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\n\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org \nSubject: Re: (urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Friday, December 18, 2009, 10:04 AM\n\nOrthodox Christianity (including Catholicism) is Christianity. The forms\nof Protestantism are Christianity with various bits sliced off.\n\n\n\n.." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "? ? ???_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6264.72.171.0.146.1261149870.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-12-18T15:24:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "<769545.6506.qm@web180207.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Heretics all.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, EXCUUUUUUUSE me! ? Martin Luther, John Calvin and their followers\nwould beg to differ.\n\nBest wishes,\n\n\n\nJack the Protestant\n\n--- On Fri, 12/18/09, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\n\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org \nSubject: Re: (urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Friday, December 18, 2009, 10:04 AM\n\nOrthodox Christianity (including Catholicism) is Christianity. The forms\nof Protestantism are Christianity with various bits sliced off.\n\n\n\n.." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "? ? ???_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-12-18T17:53:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "<6264.72.171.0.146.1261149870.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Orthodox Christianity (including Catholicism) is Christianity. The forms\nof Protestantism are Christianity with various bits sliced off." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, EXCUUUUUUUSE me! Martin Luther, John Calvin and their followers\nwould beg to differ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Heretics all." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "....And so Josh got the Christmas party started at the Urth List.\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4033.72.171.0.141.1261159025.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-12-18T17:57:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Bah! Humbug!\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Orthodox Christianity (including Catholicism) is Christianity. The\nforms\nof Protestantism are Christianity with various bits sliced off." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Well, EXCUUUUUUUSE me! Martin Luther, John Calvin and their followers\nwould beg to differ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Heretics all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "....And so Josh got the Christmas party started at the Urth List.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3EE1025EE2FB43EC922451A977868F16@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-12-18T18:01:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "<4033.72.171.0.141.1261159025.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Orthodox Christianity (including Catholicism) is Christianity. The\nforms\nof Protestantism are Christianity with various bits sliced off." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Well, EXCUUUUUUUSE me! Martin Luther, John Calvin and their followers\nwould beg to differ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Heretics all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "....And so Josh got the Christmas party started at the Urth List." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Bah! Humbug!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Now you sound like a Puritan.\n:-D " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4946.72.171.0.141.1261159661.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-12-18T18:07:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "<3EE1025EE2FB43EC922451A977868F16@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The original group is the orthodox group: there was no one before them,\nthey get to say what is orthodox. Any deviation from what that original\ngroup says is therefore, by definition, heterodox.\n\nQED.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Orthodox Christianity (including Catholicism) is Christianity. The\nforms\nof Protestantism are Christianity with various bits sliced off." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Well, EXCUUUUUUUSE me! Martin Luther, John Calvin and their\nfollowers\nwould beg to differ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Heretics all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "....And so Josh got the Christmas party started at the Urth List." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Bah! Humbug!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Now you sound like a Puritan.\n:-D\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370912181010s5e3ce837q15c20bd2b743d9b8@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-12-18T18:10:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "<4946.72.171.0.141.1261159661.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The question is, then, whether the Orthodox or the Catholic are orthodox as\nregards the _filioque_ clause.\n\n(Will the filioque clause be coming down your chimney this Christmas? Have\nyou been a good brunian or a bad brunian?)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 10:07 AM, wrote:\nThe original group is the orthodox group: there was no one before them,\nthey get to say what is orthodox. Any deviation from what that original\ngroup says is therefore, by definition, heterodox.\n\nQED.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Orthodox Christianity (including Catholicism) is Christianity. The\nforms\nof Protestantism are Christianity with various bits sliced off." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Well, EXCUUUUUUUSE me! ? Martin Luther, John Calvin and their\nfollowers\nwould beg to differ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Heretics all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "....And so Josh got the Christmas party started at the Urth List." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Bah! Humbug!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Now you sound like a Puritan.\n:-D\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<11864.72.171.0.141.1261160921.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-12-18T18:28:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370912181010s5e3ce837q15c20bd2b743d9b8@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The question is, then, whether the Orthodox or the Catholic are orthodox\nas regards the _filioque_ clause." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That part's pretty minor. They can take sacrament from each other's\npriests, in an emergency. The Anglicans are also reasonably close: they\nshould be considered something other than Protestant if you ask me.\n\nIt's not like slicing and the dicing and the mixing and the matching of\nthe theology that Martin and John and their ilk indulged in." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(Will the filioque clause be coming down your chimney this Christmas?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'll be enjoying a nice drive on Christmas." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Have you been a good brunian or a bad brunian?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'll do until something better comes along.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 10:07 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The original group is the orthodox group: there was no one before them,\nthey get to say what is orthodox. Any deviation from what that original\ngroup says is therefore, by definition, heterodox.\n\nQED.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "Orthodox Christianity (including Catholicism) is Christianity. The\nforms\nof Protestantism are Christianity with various bits sliced off." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "Well, EXCUUUUUUUSE me! ? Martin Luther, John Calvin and their\nfollowers\nwould beg to differ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Heretics all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "....And so Josh got the Christmas party started at the Urth List." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Bah! Humbug!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Now you sound like a Puritan.\n:-D\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<0088027CF8894B0B93ABEC4D2672836E@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-12-18T18:41:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: heresy", "in_reply_to": "<4946.72.171.0.141.1261159661.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The original group is the orthodox group: there was no one before them,\nthey get to say what is orthodox. Any deviation from what that original\ngroup says is therefore, by definition, heterodox." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And here we go...\n\nWell, then we have to ask who is saying it? For quite a long time the \nEastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholic churches considered each other \nheretics, excommunicated, and damned. (Same with the Church of England)\n\nIIRC the terms \"orthodox\" (right-thinking) and \"heterodox\" (other-thinking) \nwere coined by Irenaeus in the 2nd century. He openly criticized the Pope \nfor excommunicating churches who persisted in celebrating Easter on the 14th \nof Nisan (Quartodeciman system) rather than on the Sunday *following* the \n14th of Nisan. That he was free to do so without being at odds with the \nChurch implies that the system at that time was not the Roman system at the \ntime of the Reformation. So you are labeling a group \"original group\" \nwithout establishing that it is *in fact* the original group. And the \nargument of Calvin and (eventually) Luther is that they were not. You cannot \nmove forward without establishing that point one way or the other.\n\n(Q.E.D. stricken)\n\nJ.\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<14977.72.171.0.141.1261162277.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-12-18T18:51:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: heresy", "in_reply_to": "<0088027CF8894B0B93ABEC4D2672836E@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm just going by the meaning of the terms.\n\nI'm either a Jew or a Brunian, depending what mood I'm in when you ask me:\nI have no dog in this fight.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The original group is the orthodox group: there was no one before them,\nthey get to say what is orthodox. Any deviation from what that original\ngroup says is therefore, by definition, heterodox." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And here we go...\n\nWell, then we have to ask who is saying it? For quite a long time the\nEastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholic churches considered each other\nheretics, excommunicated, and damned. (Same with the Church of England)\n\nIIRC the terms \"orthodox\" (right-thinking) and \"heterodox\"\n(other-thinking)\nwere coined by Irenaeus in the 2nd century. He openly criticized the Pope\nfor excommunicating churches who persisted in celebrating Easter on the\n14th\nof Nisan (Quartodeciman system) rather than on the Sunday *following* the\n14th of Nisan. That he was free to do so without being at odds with the\nChurch implies that the system at that time was not the Roman system at\nthe\ntime of the Reformation. So you are labeling a group \"original group\"\nwithout establishing that it is *in fact* the original group. And the\nargument of Calvin and (eventually) Luther is that they were not. You\ncannot\nmove forward without establishing that point one way or the other.\n\n(Q.E.D. stricken)\n\nJ.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4356.72.171.0.141.1261162433.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-12-18T18:53:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: heresy", "in_reply_to": "<14977.72.171.0.141.1261162277.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Remember, I always use the radical meaning of a given term.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm just going by the meaning of the terms.\n\nI'm either a Jew or a Brunian, depending what mood I'm in when you ask me:\nI have no dog in this fight.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The original group is the orthodox group: there was no one before them,\nthey get to say what is orthodox. Any deviation from what that original\ngroup says is therefore, by definition, heterodox." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And here we go...\n\nWell, then we have to ask who is saying it? For quite a long time the\nEastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholic churches considered each other\nheretics, excommunicated, and damned. (Same with the Church of England)\n\nIIRC the terms \"orthodox\" (right-thinking) and \"heterodox\"\n(other-thinking)\nwere coined by Irenaeus in the 2nd century. He openly criticized the\nPope\nfor excommunicating churches who persisted in celebrating Easter on the\n14th\nof Nisan (Quartodeciman system) rather than on the Sunday *following*\nthe\n14th of Nisan. That he was free to do so without being at odds with the\nChurch implies that the system at that time was not the Roman system at\nthe\ntime of the Reformation. So you are labeling a group \"original group\"\nwithout establishing that it is *in fact* the original group. And the\nargument of Calvin and (eventually) Luther is that they were not. You\ncannot\nmove forward without establishing that point one way or the other.\n\n(Q.E.D. stricken)\n\nJ.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew Weber", "address": "palaeologos at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-12-18T19:08:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: heresy", "in_reply_to": "<4356.72.171.0.141.1261162433.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 10:53 AM, wrote:\nRemember, I always use the radical meaning of a given term." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The radical meaning of \"orthodoxy\" is \"right-worshipping.\"" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Matt +\n\nThe Ides of March have come.\nJulius Caesar (100-44 B.C.), From PLUTARCH, Lives, Caesar, sec. 63" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370912181110l438e72d7p92a4acd28c0cca0@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-12-18T19:10:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: heresy", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Um, no it isn't. \"Ortho\" = \"right\" and \"doxa\" = \"belief.\" Right-believing." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 11:08 AM, Matthew Weber wrote:\n\n\nOn Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 10:53 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Remember, I always use the radical meaning of a given term." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The radical meaning of \"orthodoxy\" is \"right-worshipping.\"\n\n--\nMatt +\n\nThe Ides of March have come.\nJulius Caesar (100-44 B.C.), From PLUTARCH, Lives, Caesar, sec. 63\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-12-18T19:11:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: heresy", "in_reply_to": "<14977.72.171.0.141.1261162277.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm just going by the meaning of the terms. I'm either a Jew or a Brunian, \ndepending what mood I'm in when you ask me:\nI have no dog in this fight." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, the meaning of terms is formed entirely by the context and the era it \nis used. The Reformation and Reaction was all about the meaning of those \nterms.\n\nFor example, I could argue that all Christian denominations merely branches \nof Judaism based on Jeremiah 31 (where the term New Testament comes from) \nwith altered rules for receiving converts. Certainly that is how 1st century \nJewish Christians saw themselves. Just because they were expelled from the \nsynagogues and so had to set up their own synagogues (which were eventually \ncalled \"kyriakon\" from which we get \"church\") does not rationally deny them \nthat status. There's not even an \"original group\" to deny them that status \nsince Judaism from the 2nd century on is a new branch itself developed to \ncarry on without a Temple in Jerusalem.\n\nObviously, however, this definition of terms would be unacceptable to 99.99% \nof Jewish rabbis.\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<9090.72.171.0.141.1261163494.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-12-18T19:11:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: heresy", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Indeed.\n\nAnd your point?\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 10:53 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Remember, I always use the radical meaning of a given term." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The radical meaning of \"orthodoxy\" is \"right-worshipping.\"\n\n--\nMatt +\n\nThe Ides of March have come.\nJulius Caesar (100-44 B.C.), From PLUTARCH, Lives, Caesar, sec. 63\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2665.72.171.0.141.1261163577.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-12-18T19:12:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: heresy", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sorry, I was wrong to agree with you.\n\nThe radical meaning of orthdoxy is right belief.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 10:53 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Remember, I always use the radical meaning of a given term." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The radical meaning of \"orthodoxy\" is \"right-worshipping.\"\n\n--\nMatt +\n\nThe Ides of March have come.\nJulius Caesar (100-44 B.C.), From PLUTARCH, Lives, Caesar, sec. 63\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3748.72.171.0.141.1261163632.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-12-18T19:13:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: heresy", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370912181110l438e72d7p92a4acd28c0cca0@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Exactly, Dan'l.\n\nStill not seeing Matt's point.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Um, no it isn't. \"Ortho\" = \"right\" and \"doxa\" = \"belief.\" Right-believing.\n\nOn Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 11:08 AM, Matthew Weber \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 10:53 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Remember, I always use the radical meaning of a given term." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The radical meaning of \"orthodoxy\" is \"right-worshipping.\"\n\n--\nMatt +\n\nThe Ides of March have come.\nJulius Caesar (100-44 B.C.), From PLUTARCH, Lives, Caesar, sec. 63\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew Weber", "address": "palaeologos at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-12-18T19:24:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: heresy", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370912181110l438e72d7p92a4acd28c0cca0@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 11:10 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nUm, no it isn't. \"Ortho\" = \"right\" and \"doxa\" = \"belief.\" Right-believing." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's certainly the sense in which it's most often used now. \"Doxa\"\nusually seems to imply \"praise,\" as in \"doxology\". According to my lexicon,\n\"doxa\" can also be translated as \"opinion,\" but isn't \"belief\" closer to\n\"pistis\"?\n\nAssuming that by \"radical meaning\" Brunians meant \"root meaning,\" that is." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Matt +\n\nThe Ides of March have come.\nJulius Caesar (100-44 B.C.), From PLUTARCH, Lives, Caesar, sec. 63" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370912181130q6ebec125m5d0780fb5edc9225@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-12-18T19:30:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: heresy", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Doxology originally meant \"statement of belief.\" And the radical meaning\nof \"radical meaning\" would be \"root meaning.\"\n\nShall we go into grammatology?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 11:24 AM, Matthew Weber wrote:\n\n\nOn Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 11:10 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Um, no it isn't. \"Ortho\" = \"right\" and \"doxa\" = \"belief.\" Right-believing." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's certainly the sense in which it's most often used now. \"Doxa\"\nusually seems to imply \"praise,\" as in \"doxology\". According to my lexicon,\n\"doxa\" can also be translated as \"opinion,\" but isn't \"belief\" closer to\n\"pistis\"?\n\nAssuming that by \"radical meaning\" Brunians meant \"root meaning,\" that is.\n\n--\nMatt +\n\nThe Ides of March have come.\nJulius Caesar (100-44 B.C.), From PLUTARCH, Lives, Caesar, sec. 63\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<12995.72.171.0.141.1261164733.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-12-18T19:32:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: heresy", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm just going by the meaning of the terms. I'm either a Jew or a\nBrunian, depending what mood I'm in when you ask me:\nI have no dog in this fight." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, the meaning of terms is formed entirely by the context and the era\nit is used." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't agree. This is not the way I use terms. Each term has a radical\nmeaning, which is mine to discover and then to always use.\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4922.72.171.0.141.1261164812.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-12-18T19:33:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: heresy", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, yes.\n\nThe radical meaning of the term 'radical' is 'root'.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 11:10 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Um, no it isn't. \"Ortho\" = \"right\" and \"doxa\" = \"belief.\"\nRight-believing." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's certainly the sense in which it's most often used now. \"Doxa\"\nusually seems to imply \"praise,\" as in \"doxology\". According to my\nlexicon,\n\"doxa\" can also be translated as \"opinion,\" but isn't \"belief\" closer to\n\"pistis\"?\n\nAssuming that by \"radical meaning\" Brunians meant \"root meaning,\" that is.\n\n--\nMatt +\n\nThe Ides of March have come.\nJulius Caesar (100-44 B.C.), From PLUTARCH, Lives, Caesar, sec. 63\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1673.72.171.0.141.1261164853.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-12-18T19:34:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: heresy", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370912181130q6ebec125m5d0780fb5edc9225@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Once again, this is exactly correct.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Doxology originally meant \"statement of belief.\" And the radical meaning\nof \"radical meaning\" would be \"root meaning.\"\n\nShall we go into grammatology?\n\nOn Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 11:24 AM, Matthew Weber \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 11:10 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Um, no it isn't. \"Ortho\" = \"right\" and \"doxa\" = \"belief.\"\nRight-believing." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That's certainly the sense in which it's most often used now. \"Doxa\"\nusually seems to imply \"praise,\" as in \"doxology\". According to my\nlexicon,\n\"doxa\" can also be translated as \"opinion,\" but isn't \"belief\" closer to\n\"pistis\"?\n\nAssuming that by \"radical meaning\" Brunians meant \"root meaning,\" that\nis.\n\n--\nMatt +\n\nThe Ides of March have come.\nJulius Caesar (100-44 B.C.), From PLUTARCH, Lives, Caesar, sec. 63\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20091218194500.FUEP11342.eastrmmtao105.cox.net@eastrmimpo02.cox.net>", "from": { "name": "James B. Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2009-12-18T19:45:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: heresy", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370912181110l438e72d7p92a4acd28c0cca0@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Um, no. In English, usually \"right opinion.\" In Eastern Orthodoxy, \n\"right praise.\" It can be either. \"Right Praise\" is original, since \nthe arguments were over the date of Pascha and other liturgical matters.\n\nJBJordan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 01:10 PM 12/18/2009, you wrote:\nUm, no it isn't. \"Ortho\" = \"right\" and \"doxa\" = \"belief.\" Right-believing.\n\nOn Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 11:08 AM, Matthew Weber wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 10:53 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Remember, I always use the radical meaning of a given term." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The radical meaning of \"orthodoxy\" is \"right-worshipping.\"\n\n--\nMatt +\n\nThe Ides of March have come.\nJulius Caesar (100-44 B.C.), From PLUTARCH, Lives, Caesar, sec. 63\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<70F63158D0CE41D380181F7F7A0EC24E@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-12-18T19:50:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: heresy", "in_reply_to": "<1673.72.171.0.141.1261164853.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hmmm...This seems to affirm that \"brunians\" is synonymous with \"radical\". So \nI suppose it is logically consistent." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Once again, this is exactly correct." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Doxology originally meant \"statement of belief.\" And the radical meaning\nof \"radical meaning\" would be \"root meaning.\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7800.67.142.130.38.1261166555.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-12-18T20:02:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: heresy", "in_reply_to": "<20091218194500.FUEP11342.eastrmmtao105.cox.net@eastrmimpo02.cox.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Opinion and belief are the same word in Greek. That word is 'doxos'.\n\nIt is sometimes translated as opinion and it is sometimes translated as\nbelief.\n\nThis uniform employment of radical meanings for terms is a personal\npractice which I encourage others to adopt.\n\nSome others have.\n\nI freely admit that most others use terms in other, less perfect ways.\n\n\n\n.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Um, no. In English, usually \"right opinion.\" In Eastern Orthodoxy,\n\"right praise.\" It can be either. \"Right Praise\" is original, since\nthe arguments were over the date of Pascha and other liturgical matters.\n\nJBJordan\n\nAt 01:10 PM 12/18/2009, you wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Um, no it isn't. \"Ortho\" = \"right\" and \"doxa\" = \"belief.\"\nRight-believing.\n\nOn Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 11:08 AM, Matthew Weber \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 10:53 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Remember, I always use the radical meaning of a given term." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The radical meaning of \"orthodoxy\" is \"right-worshipping.\"\n\n--\nMatt +\n\nThe Ides of March have come.\nJulius Caesar (100-44 B.C.), From PLUTARCH, Lives, Caesar, sec. 63\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0912181252q54422c60rb94b34abd296ac75@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-12-18T20:52:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "<11864.72.171.0.141.1261160921.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For the record, Orthodox Christians are told not to take the Sacrament from\nCatholic priests, and it is my impression, at the least, that the Orthodox\ndo not offer the Eucharist to Catholics." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 1:28 PM, wrote:\nThe question is, then, whether the Orthodox or the Catholic are orthodox\nas regards the _filioque_ clause." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That part's pretty minor. They can take sacrament from each other's\npriests, in an emergency. The Anglicans are also reasonably close: they\nshould be considered something other than Protestant if you ask me.\n\nIt's not like slicing and the dicing and the mixing and the matching of\nthe theology that Martin and John and their ilk indulged in." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "(Will the filioque clause be coming down your chimney this Christmas?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'll be enjoying a nice drive on Christmas." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Have you been a good brunian or a bad brunian?)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'll do until something better comes along.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 10:07 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The original group is the orthodox group: there was no one before them,\nthey get to say what is orthodox. Any deviation from what that original\ngroup says is therefore, by definition, heterodox.\n\nQED.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "Orthodox Christianity (including Catholicism) is Christianity. The\nforms\nof Protestantism are Christianity with various bits sliced off." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "Well, EXCUUUUUUUSE me! Martin Luther, John Calvin and their\nfollowers\nwould beg to differ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "Heretics all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "....And so Josh got the Christmas party started at the Urth List." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Bah! Humbug!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Now you sound like a Puritan.\n:-D\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3199.72.171.0.138.1261170680.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-12-18T21:11:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0912181252q54422c60rb94b34abd296ac75@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Orthodox Christians may not take the sacrament from Catholic priests\nunless they really need it and there are no Orthodox priests around.\n\nThis I have from an orthodox priest.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "For the record, Orthodox Christians are told not to take the Sacrament\nfrom\nCatholic priests, and it is my impression, at the least, that the Orthodox\ndo not offer the Eucharist to Catholics.\n\nOn Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 1:28 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The question is, then, whether the Orthodox or the Catholic are\northodox\nas regards the _filioque_ clause." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That part's pretty minor. They can take sacrament from each other's\npriests, in an emergency. The Anglicans are also reasonably close: they\nshould be considered something other than Protestant if you ask me.\n\nIt's not like slicing and the dicing and the mixing and the matching of\nthe theology that Martin and John and their ilk indulged in." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "(Will the filioque clause be coming down your chimney this Christmas?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'll be enjoying a nice drive on Christmas." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Have you been a good brunian or a bad brunian?)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'll do until something better comes along.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 10:07 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "The original group is the orthodox group: there was no one before\nthem,\nthey get to say what is orthodox. Any deviation from what that\noriginal\ngroup says is therefore, by definition, heterodox.\n\nQED.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "Orthodox Christianity (including Catholicism) is Christianity." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The\nforms\nof Protestantism are Christianity with various bits sliced off." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "Well, EXCUUUUUUUSE me! Martin Luther, John Calvin and their\nfollowers\nwould beg to differ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "Heretics all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "....And so Josh got the Christmas party started at the Urth List." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Bah! Humbug!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Now you sound like a Puritan.\n:-D\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0912181313t32fbed19xa9f3fc96a12cb0c1@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-12-18T21:13:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "<3199.72.171.0.138.1261170680.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or, as the Catholics would say, only in extremis?\n\nI buy that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 4:11 PM, wrote:\nOrthodox Christians may not take the sacrament from Catholic priests\nunless they really need it and there are no Orthodox priests around.\n\nThis I have from an orthodox priest.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "For the record, Orthodox Christians are told not to take the Sacrament\nfrom\nCatholic priests, and it is my impression, at the least, that the\nOrthodox\ndo not offer the Eucharist to Catholics.\n\nOn Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 1:28 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "The question is, then, whether the Orthodox or the Catholic are\northodox\nas regards the _filioque_ clause." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "That part's pretty minor. They can take sacrament from each other's\npriests, in an emergency. The Anglicans are also reasonably close: they\nshould be considered something other than Protestant if you ask me.\n\nIt's not like slicing and the dicing and the mixing and the matching of\nthe theology that Martin and John and their ilk indulged in." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "(Will the filioque clause be coming down your chimney this Christmas?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I'll be enjoying a nice drive on Christmas." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Have you been a good brunian or a bad brunian?)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I'll do until something better comes along.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 10:07 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "The original group is the orthodox group: there was no one before\nthem,\nthey get to say what is orthodox. Any deviation from what that\noriginal\ngroup says is therefore, by definition, heterodox.\n\nQED.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 10, "text": "Orthodox Christianity (including Catholicism) is Christianity." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The\nforms\nof Protestantism are Christianity with various bits sliced off." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 10, "text": "Well, EXCUUUUUUUSE me! Martin Luther, John Calvin and their\nfollowers\nwould beg to differ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "Heretics all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "....And so Josh got the Christmas party started at the Urth List." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "Bah! Humbug!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Now you sound like a Puritan.\n:-D\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<11661.72.171.0.138.1261171187.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-12-18T21:19:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0912181313t32fbed19xa9f3fc96a12cb0c1@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's the term!\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Or, as the Catholics would say, only in extremis?\n\nI buy that.\n\nOn Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 4:11 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Orthodox Christians may not take the sacrament from Catholic priests\nunless they really need it and there are no Orthodox priests around.\n\nThis I have from an orthodox priest.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "For the record, Orthodox Christians are told not to take the Sacrament\nfrom\nCatholic priests, and it is my impression, at the least, that the\nOrthodox\ndo not offer the Eucharist to Catholics.\n\nOn Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 1:28 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "The question is, then, whether the Orthodox or the Catholic are\northodox\nas regards the _filioque_ clause." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "That part's pretty minor. They can take sacrament from each other's\npriests, in an emergency. The Anglicans are also reasonably close:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "they\nshould be considered something other than Protestant if you ask me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "It's not like slicing and the dicing and the mixing and the matching\nof\nthe theology that Martin and John and their ilk indulged in." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "(Will the filioque clause be coming down your chimney this\nChristmas?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I'll be enjoying a nice drive on Christmas." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Have you been a good brunian or a bad brunian?)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I'll do until something better comes along.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 10:07 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "The original group is the orthodox group: there was no one before\nthem,\nthey get to say what is orthodox. Any deviation from what that\noriginal\ngroup says is therefore, by definition, heterodox.\n\nQED.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 11, "text": "Orthodox Christianity (including Catholicism) is\nChristianity." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "The\nforms\nof Protestantism are Christianity with various bits sliced\noff." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 11, "text": "Well, EXCUUUUUUUSE me! Martin Luther, John Calvin and their\nfollowers\nwould beg to differ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 10, "text": "Heretics all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "....And so Josh got the Christmas party started at the Urth\nList." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "Bah! Humbug!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "Now you sound like a Puritan.\n:-D\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-12-18T22:58:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "<6264.72.171.0.146.1261149870.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Heretics all." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think you have to depart from the Nicean Creed to achieve heresy, or at\nleast to depart from Christianity. This was agreed upon in the ageas\nbefore the great schim between Roman and Eastern Catholics.\n\nRegards,\nJeff" } ] }, { "message_id": "<15361.67.142.130.29.1261177950.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-12-18T23:12:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not if you are, as I am, using the radical definition of the term\n'heterodox'.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Heretics all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think you have to depart from the Nicean Creed to achieve heresy, or at\nleast to depart from Christianity. This was agreed upon in the ageas\nbefore the great schim between Roman and Eastern Catholics.\n\nRegards,\nJeff\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4B2C1E87.7000305@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-12-19T00:29:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370912181010s5e3ce837q15c20bd2b743d9b8@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n(Will the filioque clause be coming down your chimney this Christmas? Have\nyou been a good brunian or a bad brunian?)\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's the filioque clause? I thought it was the Holy Spirit. Or maybe \nectoplasm.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4B2C1F45.8050907@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-12-19T00:33:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "<871553.85747.qm@web54406.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nathan Spears wrote:\n\nOk, one more try: Catholicism is much more like a religious science \nthan many other religions. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Paging Father Brown.\n\nSeriously: it's not like Wolfe hasn't told us often enough that we \nshould read Chesterton. I'm finally doing so, and, yeah, you can see an \nawful lot of very, very strong influence. Plus it's kinda fun.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4B2C1FD3.3030405@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-12-19T00:35:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: heresy", "in_reply_to": "<12995.72.171.0.141.1261164733.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\n\nI don't agree. This is not the way I use terms. Each term has a radical\nmeaning, which is mine to discover and then to always use.\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The question is who's to be master, that's all.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6b7f371340ef22d8573c08b41c4ce61f.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-12-19T00:40:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "<15361.67.142.130.29.1261177950.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not if you are, as I am, using the radical definition of the term\n'heterodox'." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's not which way your doxy swings, it's about the message before that.\nProtestants don't slice any material bits off of the Creed." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew Weber", "address": "palaeologos at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-12-19T00:45:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "<6b7f371340ef22d8573c08b41c4ce61f.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 4:40 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nNot if you are, as I am, using the radical definition of the term\n'heterodox'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's not which way your doxy swings, it's about the message before that.\nProtestants don't slice any material bits off of the Creed." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Depends on the Protestant. I'm not sure that Anabaptists mean the same\nthing that I do when I say that I acknowledge one baptism for the remission\nof sins.\n\nAnd there are non-magisterial Protestantisms that set personal experience\nand opinion far above any credal or dogmatic formulation; Bishop John Shelby\nSpong, Gretta Vosper, and Paul Tillich have all felt perfectly comfortable\nin contesting or contradicting the historic creeds without violating the\ncanons of their respective church bodies." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Matt +\n\nThe Ides of March have come.\nJulius Caesar (100-44 B.C.), From PLUTARCH, Lives, Caesar, sec. 63" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2253.67.142.130.28.1261183936.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-12-19T00:52:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "<4B2C1F45.8050907@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is certainly scientific in the old sense.\n\nIt has been gone over for a long time by some brilliant people and the\nloose ends are pretty much all tied up.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nathan Spears wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Ok, one more try: Catholicism is much more like a religious science\nthan many other religions." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Paging Father Brown.\n\nSeriously: it's not like Wolfe hasn't told us often enough that we\nshould read Chesterton. I'm finally doing so, and, yeah, you can see an\nawful lot of very, very strong influence. Plus it's kinda fun.\n\nAdam\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3408.67.142.130.28.1261183989.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-12-19T00:53:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: heresy", "in_reply_to": "<4B2C1FD3.3030405@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sorry, I'm not into S&M currently.\n\nNot that I have anything against that kind of stuff.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't agree. This is not the way I use terms. Each term has a radical\nmeaning, which is mine to discover and then to always use." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The question is who's to be master, that's all.\n\nAdam\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<14275.67.142.130.28.1261184068.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-12-19T00:54:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "<6b7f371340ef22d8573c08b41c4ce61f.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "OK, I can disagree with that.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Not if you are, as I am, using the radical definition of the term\n'heterodox'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's not which way your doxy swings, it's about the message before that.\nProtestants don't slice any material bits off of the Creed.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370912181743u425265fav4a656a3a292304e2@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-12-19T01:43:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "<6b7f371340ef22d8573c08b41c4ce61f.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's not which way your doxy swings, it's about the message before that.\nProtestants don't slice any material bits off of the Creed." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, but they've redefined terms (you know, like \"I believe ... in the Holy\nSpirit, the Holy Catholic Church ...\") to suit themselves. Too, they\ntossed out bits of Scripture that didn't suit them and then set up the\nunprecedented principle of \"Sola Scriptura.\"\n\nNo: the Protestant \"reformation\" was a series of heresies.\n\nLuther had a point. There were things that were wrong with the practice\n(NOT the theology) of the Roman church. Had he been patient enough\nto work within the Roman system, they might have been addressed\nmuch sooner -- some of them were not properly addressed until the\nsecond Vatican council, which might properly be seen as the Church's\nresponse to the legitimate complaints of the Deformers." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4B2C4919.3080500@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-12-19T03:31:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "<2253.67.142.130.28.1261183936.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nIt is certainly scientific in the old sense.\n\nIt has been gone over for a long time by some brilliant people and the\nloose ends are pretty much all tied up." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How about transubstantiation, and other unobservable unfalsifiables?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew Weber", "address": "palaeologos at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-12-19T03:57:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "<4B2C4919.3080500@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 7:31 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It is certainly scientific in the old sense.\n\nIt has been gone over for a long time by some brilliant people and the\nloose ends are pretty much all tied up." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How about transubstantiation, and other unobservable unfalsifiables?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Could you unpack what you mean by \"transubstantiation\"? Where I come from,\nthe word is used to describe a theory of how the Real Presence in the\nEucharist works; a theory couched in 13th-century neo-Aristotelian\nphilosophico-scientific terms.\n\nLook at any of the great works of systematic theology (Thomas's Summa, John\nDamascene's Exposition, Lombard's Sentences). There's nothing wrong with\nthe reasoning in any of these works, and they proceed in an orderly,\nrational, and coherent fashion. Whether you find them credible will depend,\nof course, on whether you accept their basic assumptions. Criticizing them\nfor not following the methods of 21st century science is a bit like\ncriticizing theoretical mathematics for not having a good beat. That's not\nwhat they're *for*." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Matt +\n\nThe Ides of March have come.\nJulius Caesar (100-44 B.C.), From PLUTARCH, Lives, Caesar, sec. 63" } ] }, { "message_id": "<921429.76318.qm@web50704.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-12-19T04:02:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: heresy", "in_reply_to": "<7800.67.142.130.38.1261166555.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Fri, 12/18/09, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nOpinion and belief are the same word\nin Greek. That word is 'doxos'.\n\nIt is sometimes translated as opinion and it is sometimes\ntranslated as belief.\n\nThis uniform employment of radical meanings for terms is a\npersonal practice which I encourage others to adopt." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\n\nWhen you write \"translated\", do you mean \"transferred\"?\n\"Employment\" is \"enfolding\"? \"Personal\" is \"having to do\nwith masks\"? I must say I find your writing less\ncomprehensible if I believe what you say about how you use\nboundaries, I mean terms. It gives me a semantic\nnightmare (if I may bring Lewis, C. S. in alongside Lewis C.).\n\nSpearwielder Peaceman\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4471.67.142.130.40.1261195497.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-12-19T04:04:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "<4B2C4919.3080500@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It is certainly scientific in the old sense.\n ^^ ^^^ ^^^ ^^^^^" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It has been gone over for a long time by some brilliant people and the\nloose ends are pretty much all tied up." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How about transubstantiation, and other unobservable unfalsifiables?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What about them?\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4261.67.142.130.40.1261195546.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-12-19T04:05:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No doubt.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 7:31 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It is certainly scientific in the old sense.\n\nIt has been gone over for a long time by some brilliant people and the\nloose ends are pretty much all tied up." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "How about transubstantiation, and other unobservable unfalsifiables?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Could you unpack what you mean by \"transubstantiation\"? Where I come\nfrom,\nthe word is used to describe a theory of how the Real Presence in the\nEucharist works; a theory couched in 13th-century neo-Aristotelian\nphilosophico-scientific terms.\n\nLook at any of the great works of systematic theology (Thomas's Summa,\nJohn\nDamascene's Exposition, Lombard's Sentences). There's nothing wrong with\nthe reasoning in any of these works, and they proceed in an orderly,\nrational, and coherent fashion. Whether you find them credible will\ndepend,\nof course, on whether you accept their basic assumptions. Criticizing\nthem\nfor not following the methods of 21st century science is a bit like\ncriticizing theoretical mathematics for not having a good beat. That's\nnot\nwhat they're *for*.\n\n--\nMatt +\n\nThe Ides of March have come.\nJulius Caesar (100-44 B.C.), From PLUTARCH, Lives, Caesar, sec. 63\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<12470.67.142.130.40.1261195621.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-12-19T04:07:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: heresy", "in_reply_to": "<921429.76318.qm@web50704.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What, you expect consistency?\n\nSheesh.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Fri, 12/18/09, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Opinion and belief are the same word\nin Greek. That word is 'doxos'.\n\nIt is sometimes translated as opinion and it is sometimes\ntranslated as belief.\n\nThis uniform employment of radical meanings for terms is a\npersonal practice which I encourage others to adopt." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...\n\nWhen you write \"translated\", do you mean \"transferred\"?\n\"Employment\" is \"enfolding\"? \"Personal\" is \"having to do\nwith masks\"? I must say I find your writing less\ncomprehensible if I believe what you say about how you use\nboundaries, I mean terms. It gives me a semantic\nnightmare (if I may bring Lewis, C. S. in alongside Lewis C.).\n\nSpearwielder Peaceman\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<646079.62971.qm@web50705.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-12-19T04:40:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: heresy", "in_reply_to": "<12470.67.142.130.40.1261195621.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd settle for uniformity. But no doubt you are large,\nyou contain multitudes of Brunians.\n\nJerry Friedman" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Fri, 12/18/09, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\n\nWhat, you expect consistency?\n\nSheesh.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "--- On Fri, 12/18/09, brunians at brunians.org\n\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Opinion and belief are the same word\nin Greek. That word is 'doxos'.\n\nIt is sometimes translated as opinion and it is\nsometimes\ntranslated as belief.\n\nThis uniform employment of radical meanings for\nterms is a\npersonal practice which I encourage others to\nadopt." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "...\n\nWhen you write \"translated\", do you mean\n\"transferred\"?\n\"Employment\" is \"enfolding\"? \"Personal\" is\n\"having to do\nwith masks\"? I must say I find your writing\nless\ncomprehensible if I believe what you say about how you\nuse\nboundaries, I mean terms. It gives me a\nsemantic\nnightmare (if I may bring Lewis, C. S. in alongside\nLewis C.).\n\nSpearwielder Peaceman\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<14667.67.142.130.40.1261198250.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-12-19T04:50:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: heresy", "in_reply_to": "<646079.62971.qm@web50705.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Indeed.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'd settle for uniformity. But no doubt you are large,\nyou contain multitudes of Brunians.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n--- On Fri, 12/18/09, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What, you expect consistency?\n\nSheesh.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "--- On Fri, 12/18/09, brunians at brunians.org\n\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Opinion and belief are the same word\nin Greek. That word is 'doxos'.\n\nIt is sometimes translated as opinion and it is\nsometimes\ntranslated as belief.\n\nThis uniform employment of radical meanings for\nterms is a\npersonal practice which I encourage others to\nadopt." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "...\n\nWhen you write \"translated\", do you mean\n\"transferred\"?\n\"Employment\" is \"enfolding\"? \"Personal\" is\n\"having to do\nwith masks\"? I must say I find your writing\nless\ncomprehensible if I believe what you say about how you\nuse\nboundaries, I mean terms. It gives me a\nsemantic\nnightmare (if I may bring Lewis, C. S. in alongside\nLewis C.).\n\nSpearwielder Peaceman\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2911.67.142.130.40.1261198427.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-12-19T04:53:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: heresy", "in_reply_to": "<14667.67.142.130.40.1261198250.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it was the third or fourth time I read Whitman, all of a sudden,\nhe was there talking to me. One of the most remarkable things that has\never occurred to me.\n\nIt only hsppened because I had read something that Borges had written\nabout Whitman. I had, before that, given up on Whitman.\n\nI first heard of Borges when Gene Wolfe suggested that I might enjoy him.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Indeed.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'd settle for uniformity. But no doubt you are large,\nyou contain multitudes of Brunians.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n--- On Fri, 12/18/09, brunians at brunians.org \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "What, you expect consistency?\n\nSheesh.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "--- On Fri, 12/18/09, brunians at brunians.org\n\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Opinion and belief are the same word\nin Greek. That word is 'doxos'.\n\nIt is sometimes translated as opinion and it is\nsometimes\ntranslated as belief.\n\nThis uniform employment of radical meanings for\nterms is a\npersonal practice which I encourage others to\nadopt." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "...\n\nWhen you write \"translated\", do you mean\n\"transferred\"?\n\"Employment\" is \"enfolding\"? \"Personal\" is\n\"having to do\nwith masks\"? I must say I find your writing\nless\ncomprehensible if I believe what you say about how you\nuse\nboundaries, I mean terms. It gives me a\nsemantic\nnightmare (if I may bring Lewis, C. S. in alongside\nLewis C.).\n\nSpearwielder Peaceman\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4B2CA3A2.9020905@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-12-19T09:57:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "<4471.67.142.130.40.1261195497.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nJeff Wilson writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It is certainly scientific in the old sense.\n ^^ ^^^ ^^^ ^^^^^" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It has been gone over for a long time by some brilliant people and the\nloose ends are pretty much all tied up." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "How about transubstantiation, and other unobservable unfalsifiables?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What about them?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Unobservable phenomena and unfalsifiable hypotheses are scientific in \nneither the current sense nor that used a thousand years ago." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-12-19T10:18:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370912181743u425265fav4a656a3a292304e2@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's not which way your doxy swings, it's about the message before that.\nProtestants don't slice any material bits off of the Creed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No, but they've redefined terms (you know, like \"I believe ... in the Holy\nSpirit, the Holy Catholic Church ...\") to suit themselves." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure \"to suit themselves\" is the right term. They were led to their \npositions by a series of empirical observations of the Roman Catholic \nreligion in practice. In the end they chose to believe that God and his \nChurch were pure and the Pope and his bishops were damned rather than the \nother way around." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Too, they\ntossed out bits of Scripture that didn't suit them...." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Now that this claim has been confirmed by a non-brunians, I'm curious as to \nwhat those bits were." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "then set up the\nunprecedented principle of \"Sola Scriptura.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, perhaps it only seemed unprecedented because the Church authorities \nwere burning at people at the stake for translating the Bible into the \nvernacular (which is what St. Jerome did when he wrote the Vulgate). Was \nburning the translators merely a bad practice? Or was it based on a bad \ntheology?\n\nLook, Dan'l, the scandal of Indulgences was not just a bad \"practice\". \nLuther's point was that it struck to the heart of the doctrine of Salvation. \nIf you think the Indulgences were wrong (as Luther did), you can either take \nhis position that the claim of papal infallibility is \"a creation of men\" or \nyou must presume the papal see was vacant at the time (as my Reformed \nCatholic friends believe has been the case since some time before Vatican \nII).\nOtherwise, you have to accept that the Pope has the right to sell an escape \nfrom Purgatory for cold hard cash (see Acts 8:20)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No: the Protestant \"reformation\" was a series of heresies.\nLuther had a point. There were things that were wrong with the practice\n(NOT the theology) of the Roman church.\nHad [Luther] been patient enough\nto work within the Roman system, they might have been addressed\nmuch sooner" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think you need to check out a biography of Luther. What you are suggesting \nseems to have been Luther's intention when he nailed his little tract to the \ndoor. Unfortunately, the Pope really needed to pay for Saint Peter's \nBasilica, so he wasn't inclined to listen. I'm pretty sure that before \nLuther had successfully worked his way through the Roman system, he would \nhave ended up so many other reformers who had tried that over the previous \n400 years (heard of John Huss?). That definitely seems to have been the plan \nin Rome.\n\nI really don't think you can put the long time it took the Vatican to \"come \naround\" at Luther's doorstep. He tried just about every route until he \nfinally decided that \"the Church\" could not have ever been intended to be \nsomething that could be subjugated from Rome, Italy.\n\nSpeaking of Huss, he was definitely a guy who planned to \"work within the \nRoman system\". He accepted a promise that he would not be harmed if \npresented him to explain why translating the Bible the common-tongue was not \nheretical. They listened to his explanation and then burned him. When Pope \nBenedict XVI recently when to the Czech Republic, there was a lot of talk \nabout how he might chose to admit that burning Huss was a bad thing (since \nthe RCC produces lots of vernacular Bibles now). He didn't. So maybe reform \nwould have taken at lot longer than Luther's lifetime even if some bishop \ndidn't manage to shorten it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-- some of them were not properly addressed until the\nsecond Vatican council, which might properly be seen as the Church's\nresponse to the legitimate complaints of the Deformers." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "See above on Reformed Catholics. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<5649.72.171.0.147.1261229768.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-12-19T13:36:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "<4B2CA3A2.9020905@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "How about transubstantiation, and other unobservable unfalsifiables?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What about them?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Unobservable phenomena and unfalsifiable hypotheses are scientific in\nneither the current sense nor that used a thousand years ago." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Really?\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1ED9941A-53D1-4CF9-A8B0-803EA90C7EAE@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-12-19T15:58:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: heresy", "in_reply_to": "<646079.62971.qm@web50705.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 18, 2009, at 10:40 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nI'd settle for uniformity. But no doubt you are large," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Brunians so fat, when he sit around the house, he sit AROUND the house! \n\nOh snap!\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<159CF18B-1C14-4CB3-9C40-2093C676FB56@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-12-19T15:59:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "<4B2CA3A2.9020905@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 19, 2009, at 3:57 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\n\nUnobservable phenomena and unfalsifiable hypotheses are scientific in neither the current sense nor that used a thousand years ago." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And so Jeff Wilson was torn limb from limb by an angry mob of string theorists.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4B2CFE3E.9050406@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-12-19T16:24:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "<5649.72.171.0.147.1261229768.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nHow about transubstantiation, and other unobservable unfalsifiables?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "What about them?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Unobservable phenomena and unfalsifiable hypotheses are scientific in\nneither the current sense nor that used a thousand years ago." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Really?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Absolutely; I have the nth geenration copies of the written testimony \npenned by fallible men to prove it." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4B2CFE78.2060704@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-12-19T16:25:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "<159CF18B-1C14-4CB3-9C40-2093C676FB56@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Adam Thornton wrote:\nOn Dec 19, 2009, at 3:57 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Unobservable phenomena and unfalsifiable hypotheses are scientific in neither the current sense nor that used a thousand years ago." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And so Jeff Wilson was torn limb from limb by an angry mob of string theorists." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As long as they don't eat the limbs" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3259.67.142.130.43.1261241422.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-12-19T16:50:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: heresy", "in_reply_to": "<1ED9941A-53D1-4CF9-A8B0-803EA90C7EAE@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Merely a hundred, hundred-twenty pounds overweight.\n\nI've been fatter.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 18, 2009, at 10:40 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'd settle for uniformity. But no doubt you are large," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Brunians so fat, when he sit around the house, he sit AROUND the house!\n\nOh snap!\n\nAdam_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9641.67.142.130.43.1261241924.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-12-19T16:58:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "<4B2CFE3E.9050406@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "How about transubstantiation, and other unobservable unfalsifiables?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "What about them?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Unobservable phenomena and unfalsifiable hypotheses are scientific in\nneither the current sense nor that used a thousand years ago." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Really?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Absolutely; I have the nth geenration copies of the written testimony\npenned by fallible men to prove it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I see.\n\nYou're in college, right?\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<8211.67.142.130.43.1261241974.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-12-19T16:59:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "<4B2CFE78.2060704@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Adam Thornton wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Dec 19, 2009, at 3:57 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Unobservable phenomena and unfalsifiable hypotheses are scientific in\nneither the current sense nor that used a thousand years ago." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And so Jeff Wilson was torn limb from limb by an angry mob of string\ntheorists." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As long as they don't eat the limbs" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But that's the best part!\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<12527.67.142.130.43.1261241989.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-12-19T16:59:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "<4B2CFE78.2060704@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Adam Thornton wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Dec 19, 2009, at 3:57 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Unobservable phenomena and unfalsifiable hypotheses are scientific in\nneither the current sense nor that used a thousand years ago." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And so Jeff Wilson was torn limb from limb by an angry mob of string\ntheorists." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As long as they don't eat the limbs" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But that's the best part!\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<20091219171959.QJAT13474.eastrmmtao102.cox.net@eastrmimpo02.cox.net>", "from": { "name": "James B. Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2009-12-19T17:20:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: heresy", "in_reply_to": "<7800.67.142.130.38.1261166555.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "doxologia, paean or prayer, comes from doxa, glory, splendor, \nbrightness, fame, prestige. That's the meaning in koine. In earlier \nattic Greek, doxa meant opinion.\n\nGo here for a bit of info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doxa\n\nIt's not one or the other. It's context. In the Church, doxology \nmeans \"word of praise,\" and orthodoxy means \"correct praise\" or \n\"correct opinion.\" The Russian church is called \"pravo-slavnie,\" \n\"true praise,\" or in English \"ortho-dox.\"\n\nJBJordan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 02:02 PM 12/18/2009, you wrote:\nOpinion and belief are the same word in Greek. That word is 'doxos'.\n\nIt is sometimes translated as opinion and it is sometimes translated as\nbelief.\n\nThis uniform employment of radical meanings for terms is a personal\npractice which I encourage others to adopt.\n\nSome others have.\n\nI freely admit that most others use terms in other, less perfect ways.\n\n\n\n.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Um, no. In English, usually \"right opinion.\" In Eastern Orthodoxy,\n\"right praise.\" It can be either. \"Right Praise\" is original, since\nthe arguments were over the date of Pascha and other liturgical matters.\n\nJBJordan\n\nAt 01:10 PM 12/18/2009, you wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Um, no it isn't. \"Ortho\" = \"right\" and \"doxa\" = \"belief.\"\nRight-believing.\n\nOn Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 11:08 AM, Matthew Weber \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 10:53 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Remember, I always use the radical meaning of a given term." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "The radical meaning of \"orthodoxy\" is \"right-worshipping.\"\n\n--\nMatt +\n\nThe Ides of March have come.\nJulius Caesar (100-44 B.C.), From PLUTARCH, Lives, Caesar, sec. 63\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7602.67.142.130.20.1261244004.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-12-19T17:33:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: heresy", "in_reply_to": "<20091219171959.QJAT13474.eastrmmtao102.cox.net@eastrmimpo02.cox.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's interesting.\n\nEpictetus, who is in koine, uses it in the earlier sense.\n\nIt is also the sense in which I use it.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "doxologia, paean or prayer, comes from doxa, glory, splendor,\nbrightness, fame, prestige. That's the meaning in koine. In earlier\nattic Greek, doxa meant opinion.\n\nGo here for a bit of info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doxa\n\nIt's not one or the other. It's context. In the Church, doxology\nmeans \"word of praise,\" and orthodoxy means \"correct praise\" or\n\"correct opinion.\" The Russian church is called \"pravo-slavnie,\"\n\"true praise,\" or in English \"ortho-dox.\"\n\nJBJordan\n\nAt 02:02 PM 12/18/2009, you wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Opinion and belief are the same word in Greek. That word is 'doxos'.\n\nIt is sometimes translated as opinion and it is sometimes translated as\nbelief.\n\nThis uniform employment of radical meanings for terms is a personal\npractice which I encourage others to adopt.\n\nSome others have.\n\nI freely admit that most others use terms in other, less perfect ways.\n\n\n\n.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Um, no. In English, usually \"right opinion.\" In Eastern Orthodoxy,\n\"right praise.\" It can be either. \"Right Praise\" is original, since\nthe arguments were over the date of Pascha and other liturgical\nmatters.\n\nJBJordan\n\nAt 01:10 PM 12/18/2009, you wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Um, no it isn't. \"Ortho\" = \"right\" and \"doxa\" = \"belief.\"\nRight-believing.\n\nOn Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 11:08 AM, Matthew Weber\n\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 10:53 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Remember, I always use the radical meaning of a given term." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "The radical meaning of \"orthodoxy\" is \"right-worshipping.\"\n\n--\nMatt +\n\nThe Ides of March have come.\nJulius Caesar (100-44 B.C.), From PLUTARCH, Lives, Caesar, sec. 63\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370912191001i6adf6c4apdc4bc39c9a0a6a3e@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-12-19T18:01:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Sat, Dec 19, 2009 at 2:18 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nNo, but they've redefined terms (you know, like \"I believe ... in the Holy\nSpirit, the Holy Catholic Church ...\") to suit themselves." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not sure \"to suit themselves\" is the right term. They were led to their\npositions by a series of empirical observations of the Roman Catholic\nreligion in practice. In the end they chose to believe that God and his\nChurch were pure and the Pope and his bishops were damned rather than the\nother way around." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So there were only two choices? How binaristic." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Too, they\ntossed out bits of Scripture that didn't suit them...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Now that this claim has been confirmed by a non-brunians, I'm curious as to\nwhat those bits were." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Among other things, Ecclesiasticus (a/k/a Sirach), the first two books of\nMaccabees, and chunks of Daniel and Esther. You will often find them in\nProtestant bibles listed as \"apocrypha,\" a term more properly reserved\nfor books like the Apocalypse of Peter." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "then set up the\nunprecedented principle of \"Sola Scriptura.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, perhaps it only seemed unprecedented because the Church authorities\nwere burning at people at the stake for translating the Bible into the\nvernacular (which is what St. Jerome did when he wrote the Vulgate). Was\nburning the translators merely a bad practice? Or was it based on a bad\ntheology?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It was unprecedented because Scripture had never been the _basis_ for\nthe faith: rather, the other way around. The Church had written the New\nTestament and established the canon of the Old (independently and\ndifferently from the soi-disant \"council of Jamnia\"), and therefore could\nnot have been based on them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Look, Dan'l, the scandal of Indulgences was not just a bad \"practice\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's _exactly_ what it was." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Luther's point was that it struck to the heart of the doctrine of Salvation.\nIf you think the Indulgences were wrong (as Luther did), you can either take\nhis position that the claim of papal infallibility is \"a creation of men\" or\nyou must presume the papal see was vacant at the time (as my Reformed\nCatholic friends believe has been the case since some time before Vatican\nII)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, the concept of papal infallibility didn't even exist at the time.\nIt was not defined until the first Vatican Council in the 1800s. Which\nmight militate toward considering it a \"creation of men,\" but that's a\ndifferent question.\n\nThe claim of the Church's infallibility is strictly limited: when something\nis solemnly declared, under defined circumstances and using defined\nformuilae, it cannot be wrong in a way that will lead to damnation; further,\ninfallibility applies only to matters of faith and morals.\n\nThus, the Church has not and _cannot_ issue an infallible proclamation\non, for example, the question of married or female clergy. These are\nquestions of practice and disicpline, not faith and morals.\n\nThe entire concept of indulgences is complicated. The idea that you\ndescribe below..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Otherwise, you have to accept that the Pope has the right to sell an escape\nfrom Purgatory for cold hard cash (see Acts 8:20)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...is and was based on a fallacy. Purgatory has never been defined\nas a \"place,\" only a fact. Simply enough, it is clear that most of us\ndo not achieve full sanctification in this life; yet the nature of God is\nsuch that something less than fully sanctified cannot exist in His\npresence. Ergo, somewhere after death, the blessed undergo some\nprocess which completes their sanctification. We call this process\n\"Purgatory,\" and folk-Catholicism makes it a place.\n\nPriests and Popes are often guilty of folk-Catholicism, but the\nguidance of the Holy Spirit (which is the basis for the claim of\ninfallibility - backed up by the Scriptural promise that the Holy\nSpirit will \"lead you into all truth\") has always prevented it from\nbeing defined." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think you need to check out a biography of Luther." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've read two, including the excellent \"Here I Stand.\" He was\n- in my opinion - an oathbreaker who started his own anti-Church\nbecause he couldn't bring himself to follow his vows of obedience\nand chastity." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm pretty sure that before\nLuther had successfully worked his way through the Roman system, he would\nhave ended up so many other reformers who had tried that over the previous\n400 years (heard of John Huss?). That definitely seems to have been the plan\nin Rome." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I may have spoken misleadingly. I don't mean to suggest that\nLuther would have achieved the reforms he originally sought in\nhis lifetime. The Church is like a dinosaur; you kick it in the ass\nand a hundred years later it turns around and says, \"Huh?\" This\nis both strength and weakness: the weakness is obvious, the\nstrength is that it doesn't easily change vital opinions to\naccommodate the fashions of the age." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I really don't think you can put the long time it took the Vatican to \"come\naround\" at Luther's doorstep." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't, entirely. I believe that the Deformation made the real\nreform take _longer_, but it would have been a long road in\nany case." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "-- some of them were not properly addressed until the\nsecond Vatican council, which might properly be seen as the Church's\nresponse to the legitimate complaints of the Deformers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "See above on Reformed Catholics." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Those guys are _serious_ heretics. I don't think most modern\nProtestants are really \"heretics\"; they live in a new orthodoxy\nthat happens, in my opinion, to be wrong, but are not damned\nfor it. As an Evangelical minister of my acquaintance puts it,\n\"We aren't going to be met at the Pearly Gates with a theology\nquiz.\"" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew Weber", "address": "palaeologos at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-12-19T18:10:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370912191001i6adf6c4apdc4bc39c9a0a6a3e@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, Dec 19, 2009 at 10:01 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n\nThus, the Church has not and _cannot_ issue an infallible proclamation\non, for example, the question of married or female clergy. These are\nquestions of practice and disicpline, not faith and morals." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is a bit of a tangent, but I figured it was worth mentioning : I agree\nwith you that clerical celibacy is a matter of discipline and not doctrine\nor dogma. The ordination of women, though, seems to be of a different\norder. Theologians disagree on whether that's a matter of discipline or\ndoctrine; predictably, the more progressive claim it's a disciplinary issue\nand the more traditional hold that it's doctrinal. The issue, it seems to\nme, is whether the proper matter for the sacrament of Orders is a human\nbeing or a male human being. Traditional practice and thought on the topic\nseems to imply the latter.\n\nThere are other provinces and jurisdictions of the Church Catholic which\nhave always had married clergy (the Roman Rite among them, until the early\nmedieval era); prior to the late 20th century, I can't think of any church\nwith a claim to the Catholic tradition that ordained women." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Matt +\n\nThe Ides of March have come.\nJulius Caesar (100-44 B.C.), From PLUTARCH, Lives, Caesar, sec. 63" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4B2D2ACE.2050007@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-12-19T19:34:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "<9641.67.142.130.43.1261241924.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "How about transubstantiation, and other unobservable unfalsifiables?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "What about them?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Unobservable phenomena and unfalsifiable hypotheses are scientific in\nneither the current sense nor that used a thousand years ago." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Really?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Absolutely; I have the nth geenration copies of the written testimony\npenned by fallible men to prove it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I see.\n\nYou're in college, right?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, two of them at the moment." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4B2D2D14.4060106@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-12-19T19:44:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Matthew Weber wrote:\n\n\nOn Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 7:31 PM, Jeff Wilson > wrote:\n\n brunians at brunians.org wrote:\n\n It is certainly scientific in the old sense.\n\n It has been gone over for a long time by some brilliant people\n and the\n loose ends are pretty much all tied up.\n\n\n How about transubstantiation, and other unobservable unfalsifiables?\n\n\nCould you unpack what you mean by \"transubstantiation\"? Where I come \nfrom, the word is used to describe a theory of how the Real Presence in \nthe Eucharist works; a theory couched in 13th-century neo-Aristotelian \nphilosophico-scientific terms. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is a conjecture that in the sacrament of Holy Communion the substance \nof the bread and wine literally becomes the substance of the flesh and \nblood of Jesus Christ, while the species, the appearance available to \nthe senses remains exactly as before. To be a scientific theory, this \nwould have to be supported by a body of observations and experiments \nthat would show a different result if the conjecture were false. Not \nonly has this not been done by the Church's thinkers, people attempting \nto procure samples of the Eucharist for examination are harassed and \ncharged with kidnapping and assault, and falsification has been \ndiscouraged historically by threat of anathema, despite the continuity \nof species making it unfalsifiable by definition." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Look at any of the great works of systematic theology (Thomas's Summa, \nJohn Damascene's Exposition, Lombard's Sentences). There's nothing \nwrong with the reasoning in any of these works, and they proceed in an \norderly, rational, and coherent fashion. Whether you find them credible \nwill depend, of course, on whether you accept their basic assumptions. \nCriticizing them for not following the methods of 21st century science \nis a bit like criticizing theoretical mathematics for not having a good \nbeat. That's not what they're /for/." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The methods of 21st century science are also those of 17th century \nGalilean science and the 11th century Book of Optics, but I agree that \nscientific rigor is not what religious texts are for. I think that their \nhighest purpose is explaining that religion is useful despite being \nprimarily concerned with things that are not subject to scientific inquiry." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3777.67.142.130.11.1261252361.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-12-19T19:52:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "<4B2D2D14.4060106@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff, you are using the modern definition of the term 'science'.\n\nTraditionally, any coherent and systematically organized body of knowledge\nis a science.\n\nThe term was redefined in the 16th, 17th century or so, along with many\nother terms.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Matthew Weber wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 7:31 PM, Jeff Wilson > wrote:\n\n brunians at brunians.org wrote:\n\n It is certainly scientific in the old sense.\n\n It has been gone over for a long time by some brilliant people\n and the\n loose ends are pretty much all tied up.\n\n\n How about transubstantiation, and other unobservable unfalsifiables?\n\n\nCould you unpack what you mean by \"transubstantiation\"? Where I come\nfrom, the word is used to describe a theory of how the Real Presence in\nthe Eucharist works; a theory couched in 13th-century neo-Aristotelian\nphilosophico-scientific terms." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is a conjecture that in the sacrament of Holy Communion the substance\nof the bread and wine literally becomes the substance of the flesh and\nblood of Jesus Christ, while the species, the appearance available to\nthe senses remains exactly as before. To be a scientific theory, this\nwould have to be supported by a body of observations and experiments\nthat would show a different result if the conjecture were false. Not\nonly has this not been done by the Church's thinkers, people attempting\nto procure samples of the Eucharist for examination are harassed and\ncharged with kidnapping and assault, and falsification has been\ndiscouraged historically by threat of anathema, despite the continuity\nof species making it unfalsifiable by definition." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Look at any of the great works of systematic theology (Thomas's Summa,\nJohn Damascene's Exposition, Lombard's Sentences). There's nothing\nwrong with the reasoning in any of these works, and they proceed in an\norderly, rational, and coherent fashion. Whether you find them credible\nwill depend, of course, on whether you accept their basic assumptions.\nCriticizing them for not following the methods of 21st century science\nis a bit like criticizing theoretical mathematics for not having a good\nbeat. That's not what they're /for/." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The methods of 21st century science are also those of 17th century\nGalilean science and the 11th century Book of Optics, but I agree that\nscientific rigor is not what religious texts are for. I think that their\nhighest purpose is explaining that religion is useful despite being\nprimarily concerned with things that are not subject to scientific\ninquiry.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4B2D35FB.5070201@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-12-19T20:22:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "<3777.67.142.130.11.1261252361.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nJeff, you are using the modern definition of the term 'science'.\n\nTraditionally, any coherent and systematically organized body of knowledge\nis a science." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's the archaic _educational_ sense, then, so one could say that \nChristianity was an artistic faith, as the arts were equally such.\n\nI was thinking you were using it in the sense of research, as Aquinas \ndetermining the canonical nature of angels and their process of falling \nin the 13th century, two centuries after Alhazed was measuring light \nwith surveying instruments to make sure it was traveling in a straight line." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-12-20T06:13:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370912191001i6adf6c4apdc4bc39c9a0a6a3e@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In the end they chose to believe that God and his\nChurch were pure and the Pope and his bishops were damned rather than the\nother way around." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So there were only two choices? How binaristic." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "When you are presented with a choice with existential" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Too, they\ntossed out bits of Scripture that didn't suit them...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm curious as to\nwhat those bits were." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "[The deuterocanon]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah! Well, they didn't \"toss\" the deuterocanon because there was some \ntheology in them they didn't like (\"suit them\"). They tossed them because \nthey considered their origins questionable in the extreme and not included \nin the Hebrew canon.\n\nYou're entire denunciation of Luther and the \"Deformers\" is based on a \npresumption that that \"the Church\" is synonymous with the the Roman Church \nhierarchy: Therefore, it is *they* (a group that includes the church \nleadership 1500 years later and even at its most corrupted) and not the \nApostles who wrote the New Testament. And the authority of those apostles \n(you seem to presume) is based on their membership within this group. But \none cannot view \"them\" (that group) as such an eternal entity. Otherwise, \nwhere was the Church during the *years* when the leadership was deeply \ndivided about who was the Pope?\n\nWas it the Roman Church who \"wrote\" the Bible or the Eastern Orthodox one? \nIf it was both, why can't the Lutheran Church make the same claim since they \nbranched from the same root? And if the Reformed Church (not to be confused \nwith Reformed Catholics) were also that church which wrote the Bible, then \nwhy can't they reconsider the canon of the Old Testament? After all, we're \nnot talking about vital doctrine to either Christians or Jews. The \nharumphing over \"tossing out bits of Scripture\" seems to have more to do \nannoyance at the Reformer's ephrontery rather than concern that the \nScripture was actually losing something vital.\n\nHaving lived for a time in Rome himself and having seen concupiscence and \nvenality as rule among the leadership there, Luther had already dispensed \nwith the idea that \"the Church\" could be closely identified with those men." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Look, Dan'l, the scandal of Indulgences was not just a bad \"practice\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's _exactly_ what it was." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I repeat:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Luther's point was that it struck to the heart of the doctrine of \nSalvation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Either the Pope was (and could be) wrong about the doctrine of Salvation and \nmade existential promises (From The Chair) that he certainly could not \ndeliver on -- or he was a pretender: not the *real* head of the \"True \nChurch\" (as my Reformed Catholic friends believe is the case now). Luther \nbelieved the first when he nailed he theses to the door, and probably \nbelieved the latter as well by he was debating Transubstantiation with \nZwingli." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Actually, the concept of papal infallibility didn't even exist at the \ntime.\nIt was not defined until the first Vatican Council in the 1800s." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The concept was not created at the Vatican Council." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't, entirely. I believe that the Deformation made the real\nreform take _longer_, but it would have been a long road in\nany case." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd say they sped it along. I think the RCC made some pretty significant and \ngood internal reforms due to Reformation. It was also vital to the RCC \nmaking accommodations with Rationalism. The Reformation was largely a \ncreature of Rationalism and the printing press. Sola Scriptura would have \nbeen a meaningless platitude without the ability of the masses to easily \nobtain Bible's in their own tongue. Perhaps the Church leaders recognized \nthat, and so kept such a brutal thumb on those who attempted to duplicate \nSt. Jerome's great feat." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "[Reformed Catholics] are _serious_ heretics. I don't think most modern\nProtestants are really \"heretics\"; they live in a new orthodoxy\nthat happens, in my opinion, to be wrong, but are not damned\nfor it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "When most Protestants speak of \"orthodox\", they are referring to something \nakin to Augustinian theology. Luther, Calvin, and 95% of educated \nProtestants accept Augustine or near-Augustine as the \"orthodox\" coin of the \nrealm. And he's a RC saint. I realize Catholic priests mean something more \nextensive by the term and Eastern Orthodox mean something wholly different. \nBut Augustine is a nice broad tent that even has room for Reformed Catholics \n(who in my opinion, are merely doing what you think Luther ought to have \ndone).\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0912200542g41c905dcv2a23c5f89a81b70@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-12-20T13:42:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James,\n\nYour comment is all very well and good for the deuterocanon as far as it\ngoes, but I think intellectual honesty requires a few additional\nacknowledgements.\n\n1) Most of the early Christians the Protestant Reformation identified\nitself with freely quoted from the so-called deuterocanon, implying that\nthey accepted its veracity. St. Paul even quotes from Maccabees in Hebrews,\nand obviously Jerome acknowledged the deuterocanon as canonical.\n\n2) The Jewish acceptance or non-acceptance of the contents of the\ndeuterocanon is a wee bit more complex of a story than you're admitting.\n It's not as though the deuterocanon was intentionally plucked off the\nHebrew scrap heap by the Catholic Church--the majority of it was included in\nthe Septuagint, which served as the de facto Hebrew canon in the first\ncentury. The modern Hebrew canon didn't emerge for some time after that,\nand arguably the rise of Christianity, which did use the Septuagint,\ninfluenced the Hebrew decision to break away from it.\n\nI agree with your larger point about the Reformation spurring the\nCounter-Reformation, and don't really want to attempt to heal any\nsix-hundred-year-old wounds on this list. Obviously your observation about\nAugustine and his philosophy and theology establishes that there ought to be\nenough common ground to have a nice, productive dialogue bringing Catholic,\nOrthodox and Protestant views to bear on any given issue without engaging in\ninsults." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, Dec 20, 2009 at 1:13 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nDan'l,\n\n\n In the end they chose to believe that God and his\nChurch were pure and the Pope and his bishops were damned rather than the\nother way around." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So there were only two choices? How binaristic." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When you are presented with a choice with existential\n\n Too, they\ntossed out bits of Scripture that didn't suit them...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I'm curious as to\nwhat those bits were." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "[The deuterocanon]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ah! Well, they didn't \"toss\" the deuterocanon because there was some\ntheology in them they didn't like (\"suit them\"). They tossed them because\nthey considered their origins questionable in the extreme and not included\nin the Hebrew canon.\n\nYou're entire denunciation of Luther and the \"Deformers\" is based on a\npresumption that that \"the Church\" is synonymous with the the Roman Church\nhierarchy: Therefore, it is *they* (a group that includes the church\nleadership 1500 years later and even at its most corrupted) and not the\nApostles who wrote the New Testament. And the authority of those apostles\n(you seem to presume) is based on their membership within this group. But\none cannot view \"them\" (that group) as such an eternal entity. Otherwise,\nwhere was the Church during the *years* when the leadership was deeply\ndivided about who was the Pope?\n\nWas it the Roman Church who \"wrote\" the Bible or the Eastern Orthodox one?\nIf it was both, why can't the Lutheran Church make the same claim since they\nbranched from the same root? And if the Reformed Church (not to be confused\nwith Reformed Catholics) were also that church which wrote the Bible, then\nwhy can't they reconsider the canon of the Old Testament? After all, we're\nnot talking about vital doctrine to either Christians or Jews. The\nharumphing over \"tossing out bits of Scripture\" seems to have more to do\nannoyance at the Reformer's ephrontery rather than concern that the\nScripture was actually losing something vital.\n\nHaving lived for a time in Rome himself and having seen concupiscence and\nvenality as rule among the leadership there, Luther had already dispensed\nwith the idea that \"the Church\" could be closely identified with those men.\n\n\n Look, Dan'l, the scandal of Indulgences was not just a bad \"practice\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That's _exactly_ what it was." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I repeat:\n\n Luther's point was that it struck to the heart of the doctrine of\nSalvation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Either the Pope was (and could be) wrong about the doctrine of Salvation\nand made existential promises (From The Chair) that he certainly could not\ndeliver on -- or he was a pretender: not the *real* head of the \"True\nChurch\" (as my Reformed Catholic friends believe is the case now). Luther\nbelieved the first when he nailed he theses to the door, and probably\nbelieved the latter as well by he was debating Transubstantiation with\nZwingli.\n\n\n Actually, the concept of papal infallibility didn't even exist at the\ntime." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It was not defined until the first Vatican Council in the 1800s." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The concept was not created at the Vatican Council.\n\n\n I don't, entirely. I believe that the Deformation made the real\nreform take _longer_, but it would have been a long road in\nany case." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'd say they sped it along. I think the RCC made some pretty significant\nand good internal reforms due to Reformation. It was also vital to the RCC\nmaking accommodations with Rationalism. The Reformation was largely a\ncreature of Rationalism and the printing press. Sola Scriptura would have\nbeen a meaningless platitude without the ability of the masses to easily\nobtain Bible's in their own tongue. Perhaps the Church leaders recognized\nthat, and so kept such a brutal thumb on those who attempted to duplicate\nSt. Jerome's great feat.\n\n\n [Reformed Catholics] are _serious_ heretics. I don't think most modern" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Protestants are really \"heretics\"; they live in a new orthodoxy\nthat happens, in my opinion, to be wrong, but are not damned\nfor it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When most Protestants speak of \"orthodox\", they are referring to something\nakin to Augustinian theology. Luther, Calvin, and 95% of educated\nProtestants accept Augustine or near-Augustine as the \"orthodox\" coin of the\nrealm. And he's a RC saint. I realize Catholic priests mean something more\nextensive by the term and Eastern Orthodox mean something wholly different.\nBut Augustine is a nice broad tent that even has room for Reformed Catholics\n(who in my opinion, are merely doing what you think Luther ought to have\ndone).\n\nJ.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370912201148k509d6160l542c3c75e9989a1a@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-12-20T19:48:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Sat, Dec 19, 2009 at 10:13 PM, James Wynn wrote:\n[The deuterocanon]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ah! Well, they didn't \"toss\" the deuterocanon because there was some\ntheology in them they didn't like (\"suit them\"). They tossed them because\nthey considered their origins questionable in the extreme and not included\nin the Hebrew canon." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That was the excuse given, yes.\n\nThe fact is that the (modern) Jewish canon was not set until _after_\nthe rise of Christianity.\n\nThe fact is that the early Church fathers, including Paul, freely quoted\nfrom the \"deuterocanon.\" If the \"Reformation\" was a return to the form\nof the early Church, they ought to have taken that into account.\n\nThe fact is that the deuterocanon - particularly Maccabees and\nTobit - contained theological statements that were inconvenient for\nLuther, Zwingli, et alia. Luther even wished he could deform the\nNew Testament by removing the Epistle of James, \"an epistle of\nstraw\" with \"nothing of the Gospel in it.\" (Why? He doesn't state\nthis clearly but I suspect it was because James' epistle militates\nrather strongly against a pure \"Sola Fide\" approach: \"What good\nis faith without deeds\" and all that.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You're entire denunciation of Luther and the \"Deformers\" is based on a\npresumption that that \"the Church\" is synonymous with the the Roman Church\nhierarchy:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not the hierarchy, no; the massed body of believers that constitutes\nthe Mystical Body of Christ. Luther et al. chose to dismember that\nBody.\n\nIncidentally, along with the Roman church, I _do_ believe that Protestants\nare members of that Body. Just to be clear on that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Therefore, it is *they* (a group that includes the church\nleadership 1500 years later and even at its most corrupted) and not the\nApostles who wrote the New Testament." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No. It is the Mystical Body of Christ, long before the fifteenhundreds, who\n_selected_ the \"apostolic\" texts that constitute canon. There is some\nreasonable doubt as to the apostolic origin of some of those texts, and\nthere were other texts of seemingly apostolic origin which did not get\nselected. The canon was selected by the Church - there was no\ndivinely-given Table of Contents." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And the authority of those apostles\n(you seem to presume) is based on their membership within this group." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No. Rather, the authority of the church hierarchy derives from its\ncontinuity with the Apostles." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But\none cannot view \"them\" (that group) as such an eternal entity. Otherwise,\nwhere was the Church during the *years* when the leadership was deeply\ndivided about who was the Pope?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know that part of history well enough to answer that question\nadequately. I freely admit my ignorance." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Was it the Roman Church who \"wrote\" the Bible or the Eastern Orthodox one?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's an interesting question, and complicated by the fact that some of\nthe Eastern churches include in their canon additional texts that are not\na part of the Roman canon (not to mention a couple of other ancient\ncanons such as the Coptic). I don't have easy answers for all questions." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If it was both, why can't the Lutheran Church make the same claim since they\nbranched from the same root?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My claim is that the Lutheran church chose its canon for wrong\nreasons, listed above.\n\nLet me put it this way: if you take the attitude you are proposing here,\nthen the logical result is that you have no argument against the Book\nof Mormon, or the \"corrected\" Bible of the Jehovah's Witnesses." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And if the Reformed Church (not to be confused\nwith Reformed Catholics) were also that church which wrote the Bible, then\nwhy can't they reconsider the canon of the Old Testament?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Since I deny that the Reformed Church was at that time \"also that\nChurch,\" I can't answer this question meaningfully." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "After all, we're\nnot talking about vital doctrine to either Christians or Jews. The\nharumphing over \"tossing out bits of Scripture\" seems to have more to do\nannoyance at the Reformer's ephrontery rather than concern that the\nScripture was actually losing something vital." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Disagree strongly. There are theological points in the \"deuterocanon\"\nthat are indeed vital. One of the interesting effects of the Lutheran\nrejection is that the Protestant Bible manages to contain a book with\nnot one mention of God - the only references to God in Esther are\nin the parts that the Protestants threw out.\n\nSecond Maccabees provides the scriptural basis for the practice of\npraying for the souls of the dead, something that many Protestant\nchurches regard as next to necromancy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Having lived for a time in Rome himself and having seen concupiscence and\nvenality as rule among the leadership there, Luther had already dispensed\nwith the idea that \"the Church\" could be closely identified with those men." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's because the hierarchy isn't the Church. Never was, though the\nhierarchy made that mistake for some centuries." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Look, Dan'l, the scandal of Indulgences was not just a bad \"practice\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That's _exactly_ what it was." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I repeat:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Luther's point was that it struck to the heart of the doctrine of\nSalvation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Either the Pope was (and could be) wrong about the doctrine of Salvation and\nmade existential promises (From The Chair) that he certainly could not\ndeliver on ?-- or he was a pretender: not the *real* head of the \"True\nChurch\" (as my Reformed Catholic friends believe is the case now). Luther\nbelieved the first when he nailed he theses to the door, and probably\nbelieved the latter as well by he was debating Transubstantiation with\nZwingli." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But Indulgences have *NOTHING* to do with salvation. A soul \"in\nPurgatory\" *is* a saved soul; it is on the way to Heaven. The\n*practice* of selling indulgences was about the purely speculative\nnature of Purgatory. No Pope or Council, even in the darkest of\ntimes, provided a definition of Purgatory that would actually\nsupport the practice of selling indulgences.\n\nIncidentally, indulgences are still present in the Catholic faith.\nIt's just that you can't _buy_ them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Actually, the concept of papal infallibility didn't even exist at the\ntime.\nIt was not defined until the first Vatican Council in the 1800s." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The concept was not created at the Vatican Council." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I didn't say it was. I said it wasn't defined (i.e., made a part of\nactual Catholic ecclesiastical theology) until then. The concept\ndid exist as early as the seventeens, and maybe a little earlier." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'd say they sped it along. I think the RCC made some pretty significant and\ngood internal reforms due to Reformation. It was also vital to the RCC\nmaking accommodations with Rationalism." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. The RCC has the ability to do this. A number of Protestant\nchurches still don't, which is why we have people who believe that\nthe fossil record is a lie." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Reformation was largely a\ncreature of Rationalism and the printing press." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I would add \"the rise of the bourgeois class.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sola Scriptura would have\nbeen a meaningless platitude without the ability of the masses to easily\nobtain Bible's in their own tongue. Perhaps the Church leaders recognized\nthat, and so kept such a brutal thumb on those who attempted to duplicate\nSt. Jerome's great feat." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interestingly, it isn't that the Church forbade translations into then-\nmodern languages; it is that the Church forbade doing so without\nthe guidance of the Church. Consider the Douay-Rheims translation,\nwhich dates from the fifteens." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When most Protestants speak of \"orthodox\", they are referring to something\nakin to Augustinian theology. Luther, Calvin, and 95% of educated\nProtestants accept Augustine or near-Augustine as the \"orthodox\" coin of the\nrealm. And he's a RC saint." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not merely a saint, but a Doctor of the Church - his theology is\nconsidered to be baseline for Catholics. But then, Augustine (i.e.,\nthe City of God) clearly supports the idea that the Church has a\nnatural hierarchy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I realize Catholic priests mean something more\nextensive by the term and Eastern Orthodox mean something wholly different.\nBut Augustine is a nice broad tent that even has room for Reformed Catholics\n(who in my opinion, are merely doing what you think Luther ought to have\ndone)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No; I think they're doing what Luther _did_, i.e., breaking from the central\nChurch because they can no longer accept the authority of the hierarchy." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-12-21T01:15:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0912200542g41c905dcv2a23c5f89a81b70@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "John,\n\nI absolutely agree with pts 1&2. On pt 2, I'll go farther and posit that \nJudaism was *recreated* to a large extent in the 2nd century to enable it to \ngo on after the destruction of the Temple (I didn't just think this up. An \nOrthodox Jew asserted this much to me about 10 years ago). This Neo-Judaism \n(as you imply) was formed to a great extent as a counter-Christianity and so \nthe Septuagint was scrapped (being the Bible Christians used) where as \nbefore it was accepted as a divinely inspired translation (yet, the Orthodox \nJews I've talked to still accept the \"70 translators\" story as factual). So, \nfollowing the Hebrew Bible as the rule was essentially giving the day to \nChristianity's enemies without getting anything in return.\n\nBut that leads to my main point: The Reformers (or Deformers if one wants to \ninsist) did not dispense with the deuterocanon just because they didn't \n\"like\" them. They had no reason at all to dispense with them other than that \nthey were convinced that the books were self-evidently not authored at the \ntime or by the people they claimed. It was an act of Rationalism to drop \nthem, and the Reformation was a child of a more Rational age. IIRC Luther \nsuspected Revelation should have been dropped as well.\n\nFinally, just because a writer (even a divinely inspired one as the \nReformers saw it) quotes from a text, does not make that text itself \ndivinely inspired. The Book of Enoch was also quoted by Jude and by various \nChurch Fathers thru the end of the 2nd century. This, even though it was \ndeliberately excluded from the Septuagint. Then, at some time in the 3rd \ncentury they stopped quoting from it and it was soon \"lost\". I suspect this \noccurred when Christian scholars ceased to consider it trustworthy as \nScripture.\n\nLuther was a man of many faults, looking back at him 400 years later. Dan'l \naccused me of being binary, but Luther tended to see all things binarily. In \nhis view, the rebels in the Peasant's War were violating the Bible's command \nto be subject to one's rulers and so he bestowed a blessing on those who cut \nthem down (Irony? Maybe. But see the end of this paragraph). When Zwingli \ndied in battle defending Zurich, Luther's attitude was \"Serves him right\" \nfor carrying a sword as a priest. But to call him an oath-breaker, I think, \nis out-luthering Luther. It seems to me, he had come to believe that those \nwho demanded the oath celibacy from him were frauds (the church leaders in \nRome who --often as not-- never followed the oath themselves and were in \nmany cases cynical skeptics toward Christianity as a whole) and that that \noath was part of their fraud. Maybe he was wrong, but he saw what he saw and \ndrew his conclusions, and I don't think there is enough counter-evidence to \ncondemn him as an oath-breaker.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "<20091221021602.GF16433@broggs.org>", "from": { "name": "Jeffrey Brent McBeth", "address": "mcbeth at broggs.org" }, "date": "2009-12-21T02:16:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370912201148k509d6160l542c3c75e9989a1a@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Let me put it this way: if you take the attitude you are proposing here,\nthen the logical result is that you have no argument against the Book\nof Mormon, or the \"corrected\" Bible of the Jehovah's Witnesses." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Disclaimer, I am a Mormon. I also am skipping the context of the\nabove paragraph, as it isn't relevant to the information below.\n\nJust a quick point out. The Mormons went with the King James version\nof the Bible (without Maccabees, etc). We are encouraged to seek out\nthe other books, but are told that we are on our own with respect to\nits nature as scripture. \n\nOh, and fascinating discussion, even if it has fallen off the tracks :)\n\nJeff" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "----------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\"The man who does not read good books has no advantage over \n the man who cannot read them.\"\n -- Mark Twain\n----------------------------------------------------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370912201816w3b0a7c57j9a9d476afb3d404f@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-12-21T02:16:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, Dec 20, 2009 at 5:15 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nLuther was a man of many faults, looking back at him 400 years later. Dan'l\naccused me of being binary, but Luther tended to see all things binarily. In\nhis view, the rebels in the Peasant's War were violating the Bible's command\nto be subject to one's rulers and so he bestowed a blessing on those who cut\nthem down (Irony? Maybe. But see the end of this paragraph). When Zwingli\ndied in battle defending Zurich, Luther's attitude was \"Serves him right\"\nfor carrying a sword as a priest. But to call him an oath-breaker, I think,\nis out-luthering Luther. It seems to me, he had come to believe that those\nwho demanded the oath celibacy from him were frauds (the church leaders in\nRome who --often as not-- never followed the oath themselves and were in\nmany cases cynical skeptics toward Christianity as a whole) and that that\noath was part of their fraud. Maybe he was wrong, but he saw what he saw and\ndrew his conclusions, and I don't think there is enough counter-evidence to\ncondemn him as an oath-breaker." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Obviously, I disagree. If others broke their oaths, that does not excuse\nhim breaking his. If the Pope and all the Bishops jumped off the Wurtemberg\ntower, would that mean Luther should? As it were.\n\nLuther was setting himself up as _better_than_ the Church hierarchy. To\nbegin that project by breaking his oaths casts the whole project in doubt." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370912201819l6b9e4ecej7e91fcf295aa520d@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-12-21T02:19:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "<20091221021602.GF16433@broggs.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, Dec 20, 2009 at 6:16 PM, Jeffrey Brent McBeth wrote:\nDisclaimer, I am a Mormon. ?I also am skipping the context of the\nabove paragraph, as it isn't relevant to the information below." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeffrey: Equal disclaimer - I hold no grudge against Mormons in general\nor the CoJCoLDS. I picked Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses as two\nexamples of Protestant groups whom \"mainline\" Protestants often think\nhave \"gone too far\" and are \"not really Christians.\" My point is that the\nbasis of Protestantism is logically inconsistent with making those\njudgements." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew Weber", "address": "palaeologos at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-12-21T02:28:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370912201819l6b9e4ecej7e91fcf295aa520d@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, Dec 20, 2009 at 6:19 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOn Sun, Dec 20, 2009 at 6:16 PM, Jeffrey Brent McBeth \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Disclaimer, I am a Mormon. I also am skipping the context of the\nabove paragraph, as it isn't relevant to the information below." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeffrey: Equal disclaimer - I hold no grudge against Mormons in general\nor the CoJCoLDS. I picked Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses as two\nexamples of Protestant groups whom \"mainline\" Protestants often think\nhave \"gone too far\" and are \"not really Christians.\" My point is that the\nbasis of Protestantism is logically inconsistent with making those\njudgements.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think that's quite fair to Protestantism. There are still plenty of\nProtestants whose creedal orthodoxy is as sound as any Catholic's. Most of\nthem aren't mainline Protestants, though, but members of traditionalist\ngroups that have split from the main line : the Lutheran Church-Missouri\nSynod vs. the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, the Presbyterian\nChurch in America vs. Presbyterian Church (USA), the various Anglican\ncontinuing churches vs The Episcopal Church (at least semi-Protestant), etc.\n\nI agree that Reformed Christianity is problematic, but that's chiefly due to\nthe innovative nature of its theory of authority (and its rejection of, or\nindifference to, traditional Christian polity and ecclesiology--which\nsprings from the same defective theory of authority)." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Matt +\n\nI came, I saw, I conquered.\nJulius Caesar (100-44 B.C.), From SUETONIUS, Lives of the Caesars, Julius,\nsec. 37" } ] }, { "message_id": "<13381.67.142.130.48.1261363590.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-12-21T02:46:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "<20091221021602.GF16433@broggs.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I personally have no problem with the Book of Mormon or the \"corrected\"\nBible of the Jehovah's Witnesses. Both Mormonism and JWism are perfectly\nfine religions.\n\nRemember, I am *not* a Christian. Brunians accept everything that\nCatholics accept, and we accept a few extra bits, which is why we are\nBrunians and not Catholic Christians. We are a deviation from Christianity\nin the same sense that (Catholic and Orthodox) Christianity (and Islam to\na much lesser extent) is a deviation from Judaism.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Let me put it this way: if you take the attitude you are proposing here,\nthen the logical result is that you have no argument against the Book\nof Mormon, or the \"corrected\" Bible of the Jehovah's Witnesses." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Disclaimer, I am a Mormon. I also am skipping the context of the\nabove paragraph, as it isn't relevant to the information below.\n\nJust a quick point out. The Mormons went with the King James version\nof the Bible (without Maccabees, etc). We are encouraged to seek out\nthe other books, but are told that we are on our own with respect to\nits nature as scripture.\n\nOh, and fascinating discussion, even if it has fallen off the tracks :)\n\nJeff\n\n--\n----------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\"The man who does not read good books has no advantage over\n the man who cannot read them.\"\n -- Mark Twain\n----------------------------------------------------------------------------\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9281892952C148B2AD3FDA64C7158349@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-12-21T03:49:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370912201148k509d6160l542c3c75e9989a1a@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Ah! Well, they didn't \"toss\" the deuterocanon because there was some\ntheology in them they didn't like (\"suit them\"). They tossed them because\nthey considered their origins questionable in the extreme and not \nincluded\nin the Hebrew canon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That was the excuse given, yes. The fact is that the (modern) Jewish canon \nwas\nnot set until _after_ the rise of Christianity. The fact is that the early \nChurch\nfathers, including Paul, freely quoted from the \"deuterocanon.\" If the\n\"Reformation\" was a return to the form\nof the early Church, they ought to have taken that into account." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "See my post to John. For he record, I think excising the deterocanon was \njustified, although I recommend them for reading anyway." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The fact is that the deuterocanon - particularly Maccabees and\nTobit - contained theological statements that were inconvenient for\nLuther, Zwingli, et alia. Luther even wished he could deform the\nNew Testament by removing the Epistle of James, \"an epistle of\nstraw\" with \"nothing of the Gospel in it.\" (Why? He doesn't state\nthis clearly but I suspect it was because James' epistle militates\nrather strongly against a pure \"Sola Fide\" approach: \"What good\nis faith without deeds\" and all that.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh! So Luther not *liking* the Book of James was not enough?! You need to \nmake up reasons for him not liking it? As I pointed out to John, Luther \ndidn't like Revelation either. Wow! Luther's opinions carried soooo much \nweight among the Reformers who set the Protestant canon, didn't they? And \nhis opinions about transubstantiation was law for the Reformers, right? \nIncidentally, Paul had no trouble with the \"no true faith without works\" \nconcept and I can't see that the Reformers did either. Ephesians and James \nboth breezed into the Protestant canon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not the hierarchy, no; the massed body of believers that constitutes\nthe Mystical Body of Christ. Luther et al. chose to dismember that\nBody." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, by your lights he wasn't the first member of that body to do so, was \nhe? The Bishop of Rome and the Primate of the Orthodox Church chose to damn \neach other's half of The Mystical Body of Christ (TMBC) to Hell centuries \nearlier. Or maybe he only intended for TMBC to be liberated (from the \nbishops on down) from (as he saw it) unrepentant parasites who were taking \nadvantage of it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Incidentally, along with the Roman church, I _do_ believe that Protestants\nare members of that Body. Just to be clear on that." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Then it's not dismembered. And Luther is part of TMBC too. And he asserted \nthat the Church leadership was gravely in the wrong, not because they were \n*inconsistent* regarding their own Church ordinances, but because they had \nviolated Scripture in which they claimed their authority was documented. Who \nwas to judge between Luther and those in power whom he accused? Sola \nScriptura.\n\nThere is simply no way to dispense with that concept once one accepts that \nChurch leaders can often be --not just sinners-- but woefully corrupt." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No. It is the Mystical Body of Christ, long before the fifteenhundreds, \nwho\n_selected_ the \"apostolic\" texts that constitute canon. There is some\nreasonable doubt as to the apostolic origin of some of those texts, and\nthere were other texts of seemingly apostolic origin which did not get\nselected. The canon was selected by the Church - there was no\ndivinely-given Table of Contents." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, to paraphrase RC Flannery O'Conner, if the \"apostolic texts\" are not \nauthentic, to hell with them.\n\nWhat Luther saw in Rome caused him to doubt that a significant portion of \nparliament of the Pope and Cardinals were part of TMBC. So why did the Body \nneed them? Why should those people be forever the mouth and hands of the \nBody if many of them didn't even believe and/or got their positions by \nemphatically unspiritual means?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No. Rather, the authority of the church hierarchy derives from its\ncontinuity with the Apostles." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And if the Apostolic Texts are in doubt, so is the continuity of the \nApostles. Furthermore, the authority of Rome to make law for other \nChristians is founded on an interpretation of a passage in Matthew. It \nmatters who wrote those books and whether Jesus actually said those things." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If it was both, why can't the Lutheran Church make the same claim since \nthey\nbranched from the same root?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My claim is that the Lutheran church chose its canon for wrong\nreasons, listed above." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, there's nothing wrong with that. And if someone has the same opinion \nabout the Epistle of Barnabus that's fine too. And me and the compilers of \nthe Protestant canon will disagree with you both.\nAs you sort of referenced, the Eastern Orthodox Church considers 1 Esdras \n(part of the Septuagint) to be canonical, but rejects 2 Esdras. The RCC and \nProtestants consider neither to be. There are enough examples of this sort \nto torpedo the theory that the canon is an immutable creation of TMBC. It \nhas always been tinkered with around the edges by The Church and by Jews \nbefore them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Let me put it this way: if you take the attitude you are proposing here,\nthen the logical result is that you have no argument against the Book\nof Mormon, or the \"corrected\" Bible of the Jehovah's Witnesses." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure I can. I can examine the totality of the JW arguments for their \ntranslations, and choose to accept them or not. TMBC is not necessary for me \nto decide whether they are right or not about the 1st chapter of John or \nPhilippians 4. The Book of Mormon is another issue altogether. It has \nnothing to do with accepting or rejecting books as worthwhile parts of the \nJewish \"Writings\". It all depends on whether I believe that Joseph Smith was \na prophet of God or a con man. If the Pope or Luther or Calvin were \nconvinced he was the real thing, I suppose I would have to take that into \naccount. But --like you, and unlike generations who were born in the \nChurches of the Pope, Primate or mullah-- I *chose* my religion, because I \nwas convinced it was true." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "[question posed by me]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Since I deny that the Reformed Church was at that time \"also that\nChurch,\" I can't answer this question meaningfully." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Then your position is precisely like Luther's toward the Roman hierarchy. \nWho shall choose between you? Sola Scriptura (the only common reference that \nboth of you consider authoritative)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Disagree strongly. There are theological points in the \"deuterocanon\"\nthat are indeed vital. One of the interesting effects of the Lutheran\nrejection is that the Protestant Bible manages to contain a book with\nnot one mention of God - the only references to God in Esther are\nin the parts that the Protestants threw out." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But that's not a theological point. Furthermore, the validity of those \ntheological points are crucially supported by whether the authenticity of \nthose books can be adequately defended. I understand that it doesn't matter \nto you if the deterocanon books are authentic. But it matters to the RCC and \nit mattered to the Reformers and --I suspect-- it would matter to 99% of \npracticing Catholics." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Second Maccabees provides the scriptural basis for the practice of\npraying for the souls of the dead, something that many Protestant\nchurches regard as next to necromancy." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, that's putting it pretty strong, but I agree that *every* Protestant \nchurch considers it a waste of time. Although, granted, I've known some \nsquinty-eyed types who would see in it a plot by the RCC to hold people's \nlove-ones hostage from beyond the grave. If the praying for the dead needs \n2nd Maccabees to be authoritative, then it is in trouble." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's because the hierarchy isn't the Church. Never was, though the\nhierarchy made that mistake for some centuries." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Frankly, the hierarchy is all Luther dispensed with. It wasn't until \nChristianity came to America that individual churches ceased to always be \npart of a total top-down, solid-state, unified structure. And Christians had \nbeen split into large divisions for (at least) 700 years before Luther." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But Indulgences have *NOTHING* to do with salvation. A soul \"in\nPurgatory\" *is* a saved soul; it is on the way to Heaven. The\n*practice* of selling indulgences was about the purely speculative\nnature of Purgatory. No Pope or Council, even in the darkest of\ntimes, provided a definition of Purgatory that would actually\nsupport the practice of selling indulgences." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yet that is how the indulgences were (literally) sold at the time. You \ncannot overlay your appealing and enlightened doctrine of Purgatory on the \nmarketing of indulgences 500 years later. I can't remember the source right \nnow, but --as I recall-- the most successful salesmen gave very vivid \ndescriptions of the loved-ones of buyers suffering in flames of torment \nwhich could be alleviated with the purchase of indulgences. And, of course, \nthe indulgences were freely purchased for the buyers personal use as well. \nSome in advance. And in my experience, Catholics typically do not have a \nmetaphoric concept of Purgatory. It's Hell. Temporary Hell, but Hell \nnonetheless. I've heard some recount how nuns gave very specific years of \nagonizing punishment in Purgatory for detailed lists of sins." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Incidentally, indulgences are still present in the Catholic faith.\nIt's just that you can't _buy_ them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That a great deal of difference, doesn't it. But you can't build Saint \nPeter's Basilica on goodwill." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I didn't say [the concept of papal infallibility was created at the \nVatican Council].\nI said it wasn't defined (i.e., made a part of actual Catholic \necclesiastical theology) until then. The concept\ndid exist as early as the seventeens, and maybe a little earlier." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Council of Trent, two years before Luther died, said the Church's \ninterpretation of the Bible was final. They weren't talking about TMBC. They \nmeant the interpretation that came out of Rome." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes. The RCC has the ability to do this. A number of Protestant\nchurches still don't, which is why we have people who believe that\nthe fossil record is a lie." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There are Roman Catholics who believe this too. I really don't think the RCC \nis has it sooo over anybody on the issue of Rationalism that they can afford \nto be mocking. What I was getting at is that the Reformation forced the RCC \nto dispense with the underlying presumption that those keys Jesus gave to \nPeter allowed the Pope and Cardinals to say anything, anything at all, and \nhave it be so. That's what I meant, and should have said." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I would add \"the rise of the bourgeois class.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm disinclined to any \"class-theory\" of history." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Interestingly, it isn't that the Church forbade translations into then-\nmodern languages; it is that the Church forbade doing so without\nthe guidance of the Church. Consider the Douay-Rheims translation,\nwhich dates from the fifteens." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Very *late* fifteens. The 'Deformers' say, \"Your welcome\".\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0912202020j3e6d50efoe2a0b802091b5d90@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-12-21T04:20:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "<9281892952C148B2AD3FDA64C7158349@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I felt, probably unwisely, compelled to reply to this:\n\n\"And in my experience, Catholics typically do not have a metaphoric concept\nof Purgatory. It's Hell. Temporary Hell, but Hell nonetheless. I've heard\nsome recount how nuns gave very specific years of agonizing punishment in\nPurgatory for detailed lists of sins.\"\n\nThis is not my experience (and I've been Catholic my whole life and went to\nCatholic school until I was 22). I'm not sure I've met a Catholic under the\nage of 30 who would agree with this characterization--and maybe not under\nthe age of 50. It's true that the concept is not typically \"metaphoric,\"\nbut the rest is just off. I was specifically told (as an eighth grader, I\nthink) that such interpretations of Purgatory were misunderstandings.\n\nFrankly, the contrast between Dante's depiction of Hell and his depiction of\nPurgatory (even though Dante's Purgatory is no picnic) suggests to me that\nthe distinction has been pretty clear in the typical Catholic imagination\nfor some time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, Dec 20, 2009 at 10:49 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nAh! Well, they didn't \"toss\" the deuterocanon because there was some\ntheology in them they didn't like (\"suit them\"). They tossed them because\nthey considered their origins questionable in the extreme and not\nincluded\nin the Hebrew canon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That was the excuse given, yes. The fact is that the (modern) Jewish canon\nwas\nnot set until _after_ the rise of Christianity. The fact is that the early\nChurch\nfathers, including Paul, freely quoted from the \"deuterocanon.\" If the\n\"Reformation\" was a return to the form\nof the early Church, they ought to have taken that into account." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "See my post to John. For he record, I think excising the deterocanon was\njustified, although I recommend them for reading anyway.\n\n\n The fact is that the deuterocanon - particularly Maccabees and\nTobit - contained theological statements that were inconvenient for\nLuther, Zwingli, et alia. Luther even wished he could deform the\nNew Testament by removing the Epistle of James, \"an epistle of\nstraw\" with \"nothing of the Gospel in it.\" (Why? He doesn't state\nthis clearly but I suspect it was because James' epistle militates\nrather strongly against a pure \"Sola Fide\" approach: \"What good\nis faith without deeds\" and all that.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Oh! So Luther not *liking* the Book of James was not enough?! You need to\nmake up reasons for him not liking it? As I pointed out to John, Luther\ndidn't like Revelation either. Wow! Luther's opinions carried soooo much\nweight among the Reformers who set the Protestant canon, didn't they? And\nhis opinions about transubstantiation was law for the Reformers, right?\nIncidentally, Paul had no trouble with the \"no true faith without works\"\nconcept and I can't see that the Reformers did either. Ephesians and James\nboth breezed into the Protestant canon.\n\n\n Not the hierarchy, no; the massed body of believers that constitutes\nthe Mystical Body of Christ. Luther et al. chose to dismember that\nBody." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, by your lights he wasn't the first member of that body to do so, was\nhe? The Bishop of Rome and the Primate of the Orthodox Church chose to damn\neach other's half of The Mystical Body of Christ (TMBC) to Hell centuries\nearlier. Or maybe he only intended for TMBC to be liberated (from the\nbishops on down) from (as he saw it) unrepentant parasites who were taking\nadvantage of it.\n\n\n Incidentally, along with the Roman church, I _do_ believe that Protestants\nare members of that Body. Just to be clear on that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Then it's not dismembered. And Luther is part of TMBC too. And he asserted\nthat the Church leadership was gravely in the wrong, not because they were\n*inconsistent* regarding their own Church ordinances, but because they had\nviolated Scripture in which they claimed their authority was documented. Who\nwas to judge between Luther and those in power whom he accused? Sola\nScriptura.\n\nThere is simply no way to dispense with that concept once one accepts that\nChurch leaders can often be --not just sinners-- but woefully corrupt.\n\n\n No. It is the Mystical Body of Christ, long before the fifteenhundreds,\nwho\n_selected_ the \"apostolic\" texts that constitute canon. There is some\nreasonable doubt as to the apostolic origin of some of those texts, and\nthere were other texts of seemingly apostolic origin which did not get\nselected. The canon was selected by the Church - there was no\ndivinely-given Table of Contents." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, to paraphrase RC Flannery O'Conner, if the \"apostolic texts\" are not\nauthentic, to hell with them.\n\nWhat Luther saw in Rome caused him to doubt that a significant portion of\nparliament of the Pope and Cardinals were part of TMBC. So why did the Body\nneed them? Why should those people be forever the mouth and hands of the\nBody if many of them didn't even believe and/or got their positions by\nemphatically unspiritual means?\n\n\n No. Rather, the authority of the church hierarchy derives from its\ncontinuity with the Apostles." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And if the Apostolic Texts are in doubt, so is the continuity of the\nApostles. Furthermore, the authority of Rome to make law for other\nChristians is founded on an interpretation of a passage in Matthew. It\nmatters who wrote those books and whether Jesus actually said those things.\n\n\n If it was both, why can't the Lutheran Church make the same claim since\nthey\nbranched from the same root?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " My claim is that the Lutheran church chose its canon for wrong\nreasons, listed above." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, there's nothing wrong with that. And if someone has the same opinion\nabout the Epistle of Barnabus that's fine too. And me and the compilers of\nthe Protestant canon will disagree with you both.\nAs you sort of referenced, the Eastern Orthodox Church considers 1 Esdras\n(part of the Septuagint) to be canonical, but rejects 2 Esdras. The RCC and\nProtestants consider neither to be. There are enough examples of this sort\nto torpedo the theory that the canon is an immutable creation of TMBC. It\nhas always been tinkered with around the edges by The Church and by Jews\nbefore them.\n\n\n Let me put it this way: if you take the attitude you are proposing here,\nthen the logical result is that you have no argument against the Book\nof Mormon, or the \"corrected\" Bible of the Jehovah's Witnesses." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sure I can. I can examine the totality of the JW arguments for their\ntranslations, and choose to accept them or not. TMBC is not necessary for me\nto decide whether they are right or not about the 1st chapter of John or\nPhilippians 4. The Book of Mormon is another issue altogether. It has\nnothing to do with accepting or rejecting books as worthwhile parts of the\nJewish \"Writings\". It all depends on whether I believe that Joseph Smith was\na prophet of God or a con man. If the Pope or Luther or Calvin were\nconvinced he was the real thing, I suppose I would have to take that into\naccount. But --like you, and unlike generations who were born in the\nChurches of the Pope, Primate or mullah-- I *chose* my religion, because I\nwas convinced it was true.\n\n [question posed by me]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Since I deny that the Reformed Church was at that time \"also that\nChurch,\" I can't answer this question meaningfully." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Then your position is precisely like Luther's toward the Roman hierarchy.\nWho shall choose between you? Sola Scriptura (the only common reference that\nboth of you consider authoritative).\n\n\n Disagree strongly. There are theological points in the \"deuterocanon\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "that are indeed vital. One of the interesting effects of the Lutheran\nrejection is that the Protestant Bible manages to contain a book with\nnot one mention of God - the only references to God in Esther are\nin the parts that the Protestants threw out." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But that's not a theological point. Furthermore, the validity of those\ntheological points are crucially supported by whether the authenticity of\nthose books can be adequately defended. I understand that it doesn't matter\nto you if the deterocanon books are authentic. But it matters to the RCC and\nit mattered to the Reformers and --I suspect-- it would matter to 99% of\npracticing Catholics.\n\n\n Second Maccabees provides the scriptural basis for the practice of\npraying for the souls of the dead, something that many Protestant\nchurches regard as next to necromancy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, that's putting it pretty strong, but I agree that *every* Protestant\nchurch considers it a waste of time. Although, granted, I've known some\nsquinty-eyed types who would see in it a plot by the RCC to hold people's\nlove-ones hostage from beyond the grave. If the praying for the dead needs\n2nd Maccabees to be authoritative, then it is in trouble.\n\n\n That's because the hierarchy isn't the Church. Never was, though the\nhierarchy made that mistake for some centuries." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Frankly, the hierarchy is all Luther dispensed with. It wasn't until\nChristianity came to America that individual churches ceased to always be\npart of a total top-down, solid-state, unified structure. And Christians had\nbeen split into large divisions for (at least) 700 years before Luther.\n\n\n But Indulgences have *NOTHING* to do with salvation. A soul \"in\nPurgatory\" *is* a saved soul; it is on the way to Heaven. The\n*practice* of selling indulgences was about the purely speculative\nnature of Purgatory. No Pope or Council, even in the darkest of\ntimes, provided a definition of Purgatory that would actually\nsupport the practice of selling indulgences." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yet that is how the indulgences were (literally) sold at the time. You\ncannot overlay your appealing and enlightened doctrine of Purgatory on the\nmarketing of indulgences 500 years later. I can't remember the source right\nnow, but --as I recall-- the most successful salesmen gave very vivid\ndescriptions of the loved-ones of buyers suffering in flames of torment\nwhich could be alleviated with the purchase of indulgences. And, of course,\nthe indulgences were freely purchased for the buyers personal use as well.\nSome in advance. And in my experience, Catholics typically do not have a\nmetaphoric concept of Purgatory. It's Hell. Temporary Hell, but Hell\nnonetheless. I've heard some recount how nuns gave very specific years of\nagonizing punishment in Purgatory for detailed lists of sins.\n\n\n Incidentally, indulgences are still present in the Catholic faith." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's just that you can't _buy_ them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That a great deal of difference, doesn't it. But you can't build Saint\nPeter's Basilica on goodwill.\n\n I didn't say [the concept of papal infallibility was created at the\nVatican Council]." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I said it wasn't defined (i.e., made a part of actual Catholic\necclesiastical theology) until then. The concept\ndid exist as early as the seventeens, and maybe a little earlier." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Council of Trent, two years before Luther died, said the Church's\ninterpretation of the Bible was final. They weren't talking about TMBC. They\nmeant the interpretation that came out of Rome.\n\n\n Yes. The RCC has the ability to do this. A number of Protestant\nchurches still don't, which is why we have people who believe that\nthe fossil record is a lie." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There are Roman Catholics who believe this too. I really don't think the\nRCC is has it sooo over anybody on the issue of Rationalism that they can\nafford to be mocking. What I was getting at is that the Reformation forced\nthe RCC to dispense with the underlying presumption that those keys Jesus\ngave to Peter allowed the Pope and Cardinals to say anything, anything at\nall, and have it be so. That's what I meant, and should have said.\n\n\n I would add \"the rise of the bourgeois class.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm disinclined to any \"class-theory\" of history.\n\n\n Interestingly, it isn't that the Church forbade translations into then-\nmodern languages; it is that the Church forbade doing so without\nthe guidance of the Church. Consider the Douay-Rheims translation,\nwhich dates from the fifteens." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Very *late* fifteens. The 'Deformers' say, \"Your welcome\".\n\nJ.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<63FB9AC7E0AEC7459DBCC99DC44247CA057878E1@BOSIDEXDB.Bankofscotland.ie>", "from": { "name": "O'Donnell, Tim BOSI", "address": "tim.o'donnell at bankofscotland.ie" }, "date": "2009-12-21T10:28:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0912202020j3e6d50efoe2a0b802091b5d90@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hi John,\n\nFWIW I agree. Similar experience - Catholic educated until 17 and I was clear from a \nyoung age that they were two different places/experiences.\n\n______________________________________________________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<71657D0EAB474CE393727CE127BF5DE8@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-12-21T11:57:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370912201816w3b0a7c57j9a9d476afb3d404f@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Obviously, I disagree. If others broke their oaths, that does not excuse\nhim breaking his. If the Pope and all the Bishops jumped off the Wurtemberg\ntower, would that mean Luther should? As it were. Luther was setting \nhimself\nup as _better_than_ the Church hierarchy. To\nbegin that project by breaking his oaths casts the whole project in doubt." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is so far off. Where to begin?\n\n1) Getting married was not the START of his project. The start was that 95 \nTheses nailed to the door of the church. In response Luther was condemned as \na heretic, his prospects not so different from Salmon Rushdie's after the \nfatwa and his life-style far less glamorous and much more austere. The \ncondemnation occurred FOUR YEARS before he married. He had been \nexcommunicated 5 years, and it was 8 years after his dramatic attempt to \nchange to the direction in the Church.\n\n2) Imagine some oneconvinced you that God had delivered a message to them \nthat we all had swear an oath to live in uninsulated shacks in Alaska every \nwinter. Then you learned that\na) that person was probably the last person on the planet likely to be \nreceiving special messages from God about the way all Christians should \nlive, and\nb) that person was himself was maintaining a shack in front of a cozy \nmansion which was where he actually lived soaking in a sauna and drinking \nhot cocoa every cold winter night.\nc) Finally, you knew that the one source everyone agreed was \"God's Word\" \nsaid nothing about living in shacks in Alaska at all, and this guy didn't \nbother to follow any of that either.\n\nWould you still believe your oath had been to God and not to a con man?\n\nTo accuse him oath-breaking under his particular circumstances (as he saw \nthem), is like saying the people who ran away from the Jonestown cult during \nthe kool-aid party were oath breakers because their oaths had actually been \nmade to God.\n\nI repeat: AS LUTHER SAW IT. I'm not saying the RCC is a Jim Jones cult. I'm \nonly saying that Luther considered his oath wrongly extracted from him based \non his personal, visual experience in Rome and Bavaria, his knowledge of \nhistory, and a flat reading of the Scripture. And, for that reason, wrongly \ndirected.\n\nJohn says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is not my experience (and I've been Catholic my whole\nlife and went to Catholic school until I was 22). I'm not sure\nI've met a Catholic under the age of 30 who would agree with\nthis characterization--and maybe not under the age of 50.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I accept that your experience is more valid than my hearsay. But we're not \ntalking about the last 50 years. We're talking about the early 1500s in \nBavaria. The state of mind of the purchasers and the claims of the sellers \nare all that matter. It doesn't even matter if Purgatory is actually not \nevery bit as bad as Hell, or even that it is not a \"real place\". It is \nsufficient that it be genuinely unpleasant and that the Church \nrepresentatives were selling a promised sure-fire way to reduce the time \nthere.\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370912210929q74963bc6t9b3f99161839bce2@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-12-21T17:29:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "<9281892952C148B2AD3FDA64C7158349@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James,\n\nAt this point I am going to drop the discussion, not because I am\nconvinced, nor because I have no response to your well-thought-out\npoints, but because I fear that we are edging towards uncharity --\nor at least that I might become uncharitable if the conversation\nwere to continue. Indeed, I admit that my use of the term \"Deformation\"\nwas probably uncharitable and I apologize for it.\n\nFurther, neither of us is going to convince the other, and so the\ndiscussion is clearly unprofitable.\n\nThus I conclude by wishing you, yours, and all members of this\nlist a very happy Feast of the Nativity.\n\n--Dan'l" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3E54E8553F46450FA01F5D6729801BB4@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-12-21T18:22:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370912210929q74963bc6t9b3f99161839bce2@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At this point I am going to drop the discussion, not because I am\nconvinced, nor because I have no response to your well-thought-out\npoints, but because I fear that we are edging towards uncharity --\nor at least that I might become uncharitable if the conversation\nwere to continue. Indeed, I admit that my use of the term \"Deformation\"\nwas probably uncharitable and I apologize for it.\nFurther, neither of us is going to convince the other, and so the\ndiscussion is clearly unprofitable.\nThus I conclude by wishing you, yours, and all members of this\nlist a very happy Feast of the Nativity." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You as well Dan'l! " } ] }, { "message_id": "<10141.72.171.0.145.1261427722.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-12-21T20:35:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk for calde blog: Wolfe thesis", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370912210929q74963bc6t9b3f99161839bce2@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l, James, All,\n\nThank you for making this discussion interesting as well as totally civil.\nI have enjoyed it immensely. I'd like to wish everyone an excellent turn\nof the year, and an excellent coming year, whether and to what extent each\nof you spends it above or below ground.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James,\n\nAt this point I am going to drop the discussion, not because I am\nconvinced, nor because I have no response to your well-thought-out\npoints, but because I fear that we are edging towards uncharity --\nor at least that I might become uncharitable if the conversation\nwere to continue. Indeed, I admit that my use of the term \"Deformation\"\nwas probably uncharitable and I apologize for it.\n\nFurther, neither of us is going to convince the other, and so the\ndiscussion is clearly unprofitable.\n\nThus I conclude by wishing you, yours, and all members of this\nlist a very happy Feast of the Nativity.\n\n--Dan'l\n_______________________________________________" } ] } ] }