{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5496", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5496, "subject": "AEG: Mr. Pavlatos", "messages": 9, "voices": 4, "first": "2009-10-02T04:12:29+00:00", "last": "2009-10-09T05:05:00+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<001901ca4316$92a7ea60$b1d14a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2009-10-02T04:12:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG: Mr. Pavlatos", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My cynicism aside, who is there to say that Cassie didn't find her lost love\nand both lived together happily ever after? Whether Madame Pavlatos was\nBill's second wife or not doesn't really matter; all that is important is\nthat she has access to what has to be his wealth. There is nothing in the\ntext to indicate that she was a lonely widow or jilted ex-wife, no real\nreason to suppose that she didn't have a man in her life.\n\nIf Cassie went back in time and found another version of Reis, she can keep\nhim. It doesn't matter if the past cannot be changed in any significant way;\nall she/they have to do is move beyond the time loop. The time loop is\nbounded at one extreme by the farthest point in the past that either of them\ntraveled. It is bounded on the other end by Cassie's rescue and journey to\nWoldercan.\n\nLike this: Cassie goes into the past and finds a version of Reis. They get\ntogether and return to Earth. Both know what happened before and are unable\nor unwilling to change what happened. So they don't. Bill Reis is dead and\nhis enemies will not be looking for him. He takes yet another identity,\nunder which he manages his financial empire or uses Cassie (his common-law\nlegal widow) as proxy.\n\nAll Cassie has to do is rescue herself at the right time, while Bill keeps\nout of sight. He has no need for more money, no reason to attract undue\nattention by illegal or questionable activities. Everything plays out just\nlike it did in the story we have, but Cassie and Bill are free to live as\nthey please after the book is closed, as Madame and Mr. Pavlatos, or\nwhatever he wants to call himself.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4AC6D985.1070801@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2009-10-03T04:56:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG: Mr. Pavlatos", "in_reply_to": "<001901ca4316$92a7ea60$b1d14a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nIf Cassie went back in time and found another version of Reis, she can keep\nhim. It doesn't matter if the past cannot be changed in any significant way;\nall she/they have to do is move beyond the time loop. The time loop is\nbounded at one extreme by the farthest point in the past that either of them\ntraveled. It is bounded on the other end by Cassie's rescue and journey to\nWoldercan.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure what you mean by \"another version\" of Reis. If you mean a \nWoldercanian copy/doppelganger, this is subject to the same issue of \nlovable/unloveable copies. If this is a *temporal* clone of Bill, he \nwill have to complete his own timeline by going back to die before he \ngets too old to carry off the impersonation." } ] }, { "message_id": "<001701ca45db$7e885a20$e6d04a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2009-10-05T16:47:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG: Mr. Pavlatos", "in_reply_to": "<4AC6D985.1070801@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dave Tallman quoted and wrote:\nIf Cassie went back in time and found another version of Reis, she can\nkeep\nhim. It doesn't matter if the past cannot be changed in any significant\nway;\nall she/they have to do is move beyond the time loop. The time loop is\nbounded at one extreme by the farthest point in the past that either of\nthem\ntraveled. It is bounded on the other end by Cassie's rescue and journey\nto\nWoldercan." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not sure what you mean by \"another version\" of Reis. If you mean a\nWoldercanian copy/doppelganger, this is subject to the same issue of\nlovable/unloveable copies. If this is a *temporal* clone of Bill, he\nwill have to complete his own timeline by going back to die before he\ngets too old to carry off the impersonation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Temporal. You seem to assume that time travel is one-way only, into the\npast. There is no more evidence for that than there is for travel into the\nfuture. If you receive a reply to an ethermail you haven't sent, you have\nhad a message from the future.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ACB7BA6.9000909@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2009-10-06T17:17:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG: Mr. Pavlatos", "in_reply_to": "<001701ca45db$7e885a20$e6d04a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nTemporal. You seem to assume that time travel is one-way only, into the\npast. There is no more evidence for that than there is for travel into the\nfuture. If you receive a reply to an ethermail you haven't sent, you have\nhad a message from the future.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "However he jumps, into the past or future, Bill Reis has only one \npersonal timeline, and it ends when he is executed. Cassie may be able \nto steal more time to be with him this way, but if the past cannot be \nchanged he must eventually return to die." } ] }, { "message_id": "<002e01ca471d$6888cd20$d4cc4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2009-10-07T07:11:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG: Mr. Pavlatos", "in_reply_to": "<4ACB7BA6.9000909@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dave Tallman quoted and wrote:\nTemporal. You seem to assume that time travel is one-way only, into the\npast. There is no more evidence for that than there is for travel into\nthe\nfuture. If you receive a reply to an ethermail you haven't sent, you\nhave\nhad a message from the future." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "However he jumps, into the past or future, Bill Reis has only one\npersonal timeline, and it ends when he is executed." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Does it? Perhaps, for the individual who was killed. But if there are\ncharacters who have one or more temporal copies running around at the same\ntime, the copies cannot be simply walking in the footsteps of one who had\ngone before. That isn't possible. They would get in one another's way. Say\nthere are two versions of Reis. Can Wally have lunch with Bill? There is no\ngood answer." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Cassie may be able\nto steal more time to be with him this way, but if the past cannot be\nchanged he must eventually return to die." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Take your theory that Margaret is an older Cassie: they interacted. Suppose\nthat the sniper had shot and killed Cassie instead of Norma. Would Margaret\nhave winked out of existence at that moment? Again, there is no right\nanswer. Either way, there is a paradox. When it comes to having one's brains\nbashed in with a club, two heads are better than one -- I think.\n\nBack to the ethermails. Cassie got an ethermail from Gideon welcoming her,\nand eventually acted on it (buying the hopper and so forth). Which came\nfirst, and from whose perspective? Suppose something similar happened with\nBill. Suppose he received a communication from the future, from some point\nin the future after his death, that satisfied himself that events would play\nout in such a way that he would survive Bill's death on the island. It's a\ntime loop again, if you will, only extended further into the future of the\nstory we have. He can survive Bill's death because he wasn't there; he is a\ntime-traveler copy.\n\nThe hypothetical communication from the future might have come from himself.\nHe got to the future because of Cassie, who went to Woldercan to find him\nand did a little time traveling while she was about it.\n\nAll these time-traveling theories require too much supposing for my tastes,\nbut that's the nature of the beast.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-10-07T14:06:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG: Mr. Pavlatos", "in_reply_to": "<002e01ca471d$6888cd20$d4cc4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Oct 7, 2009, at 2:11 AM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nWhen it comes to having one's brains\nbashed in with a club, two heads are better than one -- I think." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mister Typhon on lines three and seven for you.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<002e01ca4781$fe2a0380$25cf4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2009-10-07T19:11:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG: Mr. Pavlatos", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Adam Thornton quoted and wrote:\nWhen it comes to having one's brains\nbashed in with a club, two heads are better than one -- I think." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mister Typhon on lines three and seven for you." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I knew I was setting someone up for a straight-line; it was just a question\nof who. \n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<85906A3CD2044F169B776633016674A2@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-10-08T23:51:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG: Mice and Cattle", "in_reply_to": "<4ACB7BA6.9000909@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What I know. What I know I don't know. What I think I might know. Perhaps \nthis seems like basic stuff to everyone else, but I've had to reconsider \nwhat I thought to be the plot twice already.\n\nOn [page 260 -261] we learn that The Storm King has been on Earth for a \nmillion years or more. We know this because he has been around before humans \n(although this is the humans' planet) not his. In the interim, many other \naliens have come to Earth. But they don't reveal themselves to humans. In \nfact, they impersonate humans to keep it all on the down low. Apparently, \nthey do this by order of the Storm King. We are not told exactly why he \ncommands this. [SUPPOSITION is to prevent humanity from being able to rise \nagainst him.] These aliens are not Woldercanlings. Woldercan is the only \nplanet Earthlings have found with intelligent life. But they are not the \nonly intelligent beings that have found EARTH.\n\nIn addition, [page 262] there are humans --drawn from California pagans and \nSatanists-- who are directly allied to Storm King. Also, there are humans \nworking with competing Federal agencies, such as the Bureau of Alcohol \nTabacco and Firearms (ATF - Arthur Thomas Franklin).\n\nIt's not clear what the government knows or thinks it knows about Ries. The \nPresident think Ries is spying for Woldercan. John Ferguson (FBI Director) \ndoes not [p 18-19]. Presumably, he prefers to think Ries is spying for the \nStorm King. Of course the President might be lying; he tends to be more \ninclined to hold information back than John does. Reis is a man whose \nidentity is apparently being assumed by at least two men simultaneously, but \nJohn implies there are three [p 15].\n\nCopies and mirrors: Chase makes copies of Reis and tears up the original [p \n21]. Chase enters Cassie's apartment through a hole in her wall from an \napartment that \"mirrors\" her own [p 76]. When Cassie boards Pavlatos's boat, \nshe is surrounded by mirrors and paintings of Madame Pavlatos [p 289].\n\nWhat is the deal with the Volcano God play? I have no idea what its tactical \npurpose was. Just for Cassie? I'm not buying that. Why not get her into the \nmovies (tri-vid) instead? The ATF went out of its way to assassinate one of \nthe actors. How many cast members are not human; hiding out as \"actors\" just \nas Gideon Chase did? When Cassie meets the *real* Volcano God, he looks just \nlike Vince Palma: the actor who played the Volcano God. Possible hint: After \nCassie psychically merges with the modified human woman, Cassie says she \n\"played\" her once.\n\nThere are werewolves in this story, but it is not clear to me whether they \nare Wolderconlings or one of the other aliens. Just because Woldercan has \nperfected the ability to change, does not mean others have not succeeded in \nthe same technology (remember Pat Gomez).\n\nIn addition, we have Gideon Chase who works for anyone. He supposedly left \nWoldercon as a child, but he knows a lot of Woldercon tricks, leading me to \nbelieve he is a changeling. He was able to heal the child of a rich woman \n(probably Pavlatos) of some indeterminate disease. Maybe he healed him, but \nmaybe he just replaced him!\n\nAs the time-travel scenarios have become more and more nailed down, I like \nthem less and less. I think clones are more likely but I don't think this is \nthat sort of story. I think this is a spy novel where everyone is wearing a \nmask. But I'm not certain Wolfe has provided the clues to peer behind those \nmasks. I once said that Wolfe would never be more than a \"writer's writer\" \nuntil he published a Silmarillion of the New Sun. Even more than those \nothers, this novel feels only the first half of a novel. It's \"Murder on the \nOrient Express\" without the last chapters where Hercule Poirot puts the \nevidence together into the various possible scenarios. It's too bad, because \nI think this is a really cool world Wolfe has created and I'd like to know \nmore about it.\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<007101ca489e$11137180$8dce4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2009-10-09T05:05:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG: Mice and Cattle", "in_reply_to": "<85906A3CD2044F169B776633016674A2@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nThere are werewolves in this story, but it is not clear to me whether they\nare Wolderconlings or one of the other aliens." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Neither. \"Werewolves are human.\" (205)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Just because Woldercan has\nperfected the ability to change, does not mean others have not succeeded\nin\nthe same technology (remember Pat Gomez)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "According to Gideon, Wolders \"cannot transform as we [humans] do. Not at\nall.\" (99) What male Wolders can do is hybridize with lower animals. (100)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In addition, we have Gideon Chase who works for anyone. He supposedly left\nWoldercon as a child, but he knows a lot of Woldercon tricks, leading me\nto\nbelieve he is a changeling. He was able to heal the child of a rich woman\n(probably Pavlatos) of some indeterminate disease. Maybe he healed him,\nbut\nmaybe he just replaced him!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know about Gid being a changeling, but it has been suggested before\nthat he is not Bob Chase's biological son, that his real father was a\nWolder. That might come to the same thing.\n\n-Roy" } ] } ] }