The spiny orange - we used to throw the fruit at each other as kids and call them stink bombs. The Urth list — 9 messages, 3 voices, 03 Nov 2009 https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5505 Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. ============================================================================== Herbert, Joseph — 03 Nov 2009, 18:29 The spiny orange of Able's bow. Wolfe has a hand carved walking stick of osage orange - carved by Joe Mayhew. Maclura pomifera > From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Osage-orange, Horse-apple or Bois D'Arc even know as the Drewedic Bullochus (Maclura pomifera) is dioeceous plant species, with male and female flowers on different plants. It is a small deciduous tree or large shrub , typically growing to 8-15 metres (26-49 ft) tall. The fruit , a multiple fruit , is roughly spherical, but bumpy, and 7-15 cm in diameter, and it is filled with a sticky white latex sap . In fall, its color turns a bright yellow-green and it has a faint odor similar to that of oranges .[1] <> The Osage-orange is commonly used as a tree row windbreak in prairie states, which gives it one of its colloquial names, "hedge apple". The trees acquired the name bois d'arc, or "bow-wood", from early French settlers who observed the wood being used for war clubs and bow-making by Native Americans .[3] <> Meriwether Lewis was told that the people of the Osage Nation "esteem the wood of this tree for the making of their bows, that they travel many hundred miles in quest of it." Many modern bowyers assert the wood of the Osage Orange is superior even to English Yew for this purpose, though this opinion is by no means unanimous. The trees are also known as "bordarch" trees, most likely originating from a corruption of "bois d'arc." Any federal tax advice contained herein or in any attachment hereto is not intended to be used, and cannot be used, to (1) avoid penalties imposed under the Internal Revenue Code or (2) support the promotion or marketing of any transaction or matter. This legend has been affixed to comply with U.S. Treasury Regulations governing tax practice. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ brunians at brunians.org — 03 Nov 2009, 19:41 in reply to Herbert, Joseph These plants with seperate male and female flowers are mostly ancient cultivers. . > The spiny orange of Able's bow. Wolfe has a hand carved walking stick > of osage orange - carved by Joe Mayhew. > Maclura pomifera > From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia > Osage-orange, Horse-apple or Bois D'Arc even know as the Drewedic > Bullochus (Maclura pomifera) is dioeceous plant > species, with male and female flowers on different > plants. It is a small deciduous tree or > large shrub , typically growing to 8-15 metres (26-49 ft) > tall. The fruit , a multiple fruit > , is roughly spherical, but bumpy, and 7-15 cm in diameter, and it is > filled with a sticky white latex sap . In > fall, its color turns a bright yellow-green and it has a faint odor > similar to that of oranges .[1] <> > The Osage-orange is commonly used as a tree row windbreak > in prairie states, which gives it one of its > colloquial names, "hedge apple". > The trees acquired the name bois d'arc, or "bow-wood", from early French > settlers who observed the wood being used for war clubs > and bow-making by Native Americans > .[3] <> Meriwether Lewis > was told that the people of the Osage Nation > "esteem the wood of this tree for the making of their bows, that they > travel many hundred miles in quest of it." Many modern bowyers assert > the wood of the Osage Orange is superior even to English Yew for this > purpose, though this opinion is by no means unanimous. The trees are > also known as "bordarch" trees, most likely originating from a > corruption of "bois d'arc." > > > Any federal tax advice contained herein or in any attachment > hereto is not intended to be used, and cannot be used, to (1) > avoid penalties imposed under the Internal Revenue Code or > (2) support the promotion or marketing of any transaction or > matter. This legend has been affixed to comply with U.S. > Treasury Regulations governing tax > practice._______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ brunians at brunians.org — 03 Nov 2009, 19:47 in reply to brunians at brunians.org Pardon, I meant seperate male and female plants, not seperate flowers on the same stem. . > These plants with seperate male and female flowers are mostly ancient > cultivers. > > > . > > The spiny orange of Able's bow. Wolfe has a hand carved walking stick > > of osage orange - carved by Joe Mayhew. > > Maclura pomifera > > From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia > > Osage-orange, Horse-apple or Bois D'Arc even know as the Drewedic > > Bullochus (Maclura pomifera) is dioeceous plant > > species, with male and female flowers on different > > plants. It is a small deciduous tree or > > large shrub , typically growing to 8-15 metres (26-49 ft) > > tall. The fruit , a multiple fruit > > , is roughly spherical, but bumpy, and 7-15 cm in diameter, and it is > > filled with a sticky white latex sap . In > > fall, its color turns a bright yellow-green and it has a faint odor > > similar to that of oranges .[1] <> > > The Osage-orange is commonly used as a tree row windbreak > > in prairie states, which gives it one of its > > colloquial names, "hedge apple". > > The trees acquired the name bois d'arc, or "bow-wood", from early French > > settlers who observed the wood being used for war clubs > > and bow-making by Native Americans > > .[3] <> Meriwether Lewis > > was told that the people of the Osage Nation > > "esteem the wood of this tree for the making of their bows, that they > > travel many hundred miles in quest of it." Many modern bowyers assert > > the wood of the Osage Orange is superior even to English Yew for this > > purpose, though this opinion is by no means unanimous. The trees are > > also known as "bordarch" trees, most likely originating from a > > corruption of "bois d'arc." > > > > > > Any federal tax advice contained herein or in any attachment > > hereto is not intended to be used, and cannot be used, to (1) > > avoid penalties imposed under the Internal Revenue Code or > > (2) support the promotion or marketing of any transaction or > > matter. This legend has been affixed to comply with U.S. > > Treasury Regulations governing tax > > practice._______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Friedman — 04 Nov 2009, 00:15 in reply to brunians at brunians.org Do you have any basis for that extremely strange claim about dioecious plants? Is there even a single example? Jerry Friedman > --- On Tue, 11/3/09, brunians at brunians.org wrote: > From: brunians at brunians.org > Pardon, I meant seperate male and > female plants, not seperate flowers on > the same stem. . > > These plants with seperate male and female flowers are > > mostly ancient cultivers. > > > > > > . > > > The spiny orange of Able's bow. — Wolfe > > > has a hand carved walking stick > > > of osage orange - carved by Joe Mayhew. > > > Maclura pomifera > > > From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia > > > Osage-orange, Horse-apple or Bois D'Arc even know > > > as the Drewedic > > > Bullochus (Maclura pomifera) is dioeceous > > > ? plant > > > species, with male and female flowers > > > ? on different > > > plants. It is a small deciduous > > > ? tree ? > or > large shrub , typically > growing to 8-15 metres (26-49 ft) > > > tall. The fruit , a multiple > > > fruit > > > , is roughly spherical, but bumpy, and 7-15 cm in > > > diameter, and it is > > > filled with a sticky white latex > > > ? sap . In > > > fall, its color turns a bright yellow-green and it > > > has a faint odor > > > similar to that of oranges > > > .[1] <> > > > The Osage-orange is commonly used as a tree row > > > windbreak > > > ? in prairie states, > > > which gives it one of its > > > colloquial names, "hedge apple". > > > The trees acquired the name bois d'arc, or > > > "bow-wood", from early French > > > ? settlers who observed > > > the wood being used for war clubs > > > and bow-making by Native Americans > .[3] > <>? Meriwether Lewis > was told that the people of the Osage Nation > > "esteem the wood of this tree for the making of > their bows, that they > travel many hundred miles in quest of it." Many > modern bowyers assert > the wood of the Osage Orange is superior even to > English Yew for this > purpose, though this opinion is by no means > unanimous. The trees are > also known as "bordarch" trees, most likely > originating from a > corruption of "bois d'arc." > > > Any federal tax advice contained herein or in any > > > attachment > > > hereto is not intended to be used, and cannot be > > > used, to (1) > > > avoid penalties imposed under the Internal Revenue > > > Code or > > > (2) support the promotion or marketing of any > > > transaction or > > > matter. This legend has been affixed to > > > comply with U.S. > > > Treasury Regulations governing tax > practice._______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ brunians at brunians.org — 04 Nov 2009, 00:17 in reply to Jerry Friedman It's not really a claim. I wouldn't call it a claim. I do have reasons why I say it, yes. . > Do you have any basis for that extremely strange claim about > dioecious plants? Is there even a single example? > > Jerry Friedman > > --- On Tue, 11/3/09, brunians at brunians.org wrote: > > From: brunians at brunians.org > > Pardon, I meant seperate male and > > female plants, not seperate flowers on > > the same stem. . > > > These plants with seperate male and female flowers are > > > mostly ancient cultivers. > > > > > > > > > . > > > > The spiny orange of Able's bow. — Wolfe > > > > has a hand carved walking stick > > > > of osage orange - carved by Joe Mayhew. > > > > Maclura pomifera > > > > From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia > > > > Osage-orange, Horse-apple or Bois D'Arc even know > > > > as the Drewedic > > > > Bullochus (Maclura pomifera) is dioeceous > > > > ? plant > > > > species, with male and female flowers > > > > ? on different > > > > plants. It is a small deciduous > > > > ? tree ? > > or > > large shrub , typically > > growing to 8-15 metres (26-49 ft) > > > > tall. The fruit , a multiple > > > > fruit > > > > , is roughly spherical, but bumpy, and 7-15 cm in > > > > diameter, and it is > > > > filled with a sticky white latex > > > > ? sap . In > > > > fall, its color turns a bright yellow-green and it > > > > has a faint odor > > > > similar to that of oranges > > > > .[1] <> > > > > The Osage-orange is commonly used as a tree row > > > > windbreak > > > > ? in prairie states, > > > > which gives it one of its > > > > colloquial names, "hedge apple". > > > > The trees acquired the name bois d'arc, or > > > > "bow-wood", from early French > > > > ? settlers who observed > > > > the wood being used for war clubs > > > > and bow-making by Native Americans > > .[3] > > <>? Meriwether Lewis > > was told that the people of the Osage Nation > > > > "esteem the wood of this tree for the making of > > their bows, that they > > travel many hundred miles in quest of it." Many > > modern bowyers assert > > the wood of the Osage Orange is superior even to > > English Yew for this > > purpose, though this opinion is by no means > > unanimous. The trees are > > also known as "bordarch" trees, most likely > > originating from a > > corruption of "bois d'arc." > > > > Any federal tax advice contained herein or in any > > > > attachment > > > > hereto is not intended to be used, and cannot be > > > > used, to (1) > > > > avoid penalties imposed under the Internal Revenue > > > > Code or > > > > (2) support the promotion or marketing of any > > > > transaction or > > > > matter. This legend has been affixed to > > > > comply with U.S. > > > > Treasury Regulations governing tax > > practice._______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Friedman — 04 Nov 2009, 00:24 in reply to brunians at brunians.org Then would you mind elaborating on those reasons? An example of such a plant would be helpful. I'll give an example of why I doubt it: all willows are dioecious, and very few have been cultivated. Jerry Friedman > --- On Tue, 11/3/09, brunians at brunians.org wrote: > It's not really a claim. I wouldn't > call it a claim. > > I do have reasons why I say it, yes. > I wrote: > > Do you have any basis for that extremely strange claim > > about dioecious plants? Is there even a single > > example? > > > > Jerry Friedman > > > > --- On Tue, 11/3/09, brunians at brunians.org > > > > wrote: > > > From: brunians at brunians.org > > > > > > Pardon, I meant seperate male and > > > female plants, not seperate flowers on > > > the same stem. . > > > > These plants with seperate male and female > > > > flowers are > > > > mostly ancient cultivers. > > > > > > > > > > > > . > > > > > The spiny orange of Able's bow. ? > Wolfe > has a hand carved walking stick > of osage orange - carved by Joe Mayhew. > > > > > Maclura pomifera > > > > > From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia > > > > > Osage-orange, Horse-apple or Bois D'Arc > > > > > even know > > > > > as the Drewedic > > > > > Bullochus (Maclura pomifera) is > > > > > dioeceous > > > > > ? plant > > > > > species, with male and female flowers > > > > > ? on different > > > > > plants. It is a small deciduous > > > > > ? tree > > > > > ? > > > or > > > large shrub , > > > typically > > > growing to 8-15 metres (26-49 ft) > > > > > tall. The fruit , a > > > > > multiple > > > > > fruit > > > > > , is roughly spherical, but bumpy, and > > > > > 7-15 cm in > > > > > diameter, and it is > > > > > filled with a sticky white latex > > > > > ? sap . In > > > > > fall, its color turns a bright > > > > > yellow-green and it > > > > > has a faint odor > > > > > similar to that of oranges > > > > > .[1] <> > > > > > The Osage-orange is commonly used as a > > > > > tree row > > > > > windbreak > > > > > ? in prairie > > > > > states, > > > > > which gives it one of its > > > > > colloquial names, "hedge apple". > > > > > The trees acquired the name bois d'arc, > > > > > or > > > > > "bow-wood", from early French > > > > > ? settlers who > > > > > observed > > > > > the wood being used for war clubs > > > > > and bow-making by Native Americans > .[3] > > > <>? Meriwether Lewis > > > was told that the people of the Osage > > > Nation > > > > > > "esteem the wood of this tree for the > > > making of > > > their bows, that they > > > travel many hundred miles in quest of > > > it." Many > > > modern bowyers assert > > > the wood of the Osage Orange is superior > > > even to > > > English Yew for this > > > purpose, though this opinion is by no > > > means > > > unanimous. The trees are > > > also known as "bordarch" trees, most > > > likely > > > originating from a > > > corruption of "bois d'arc." > > > > > Any federal tax advice contained herein > > > > > or in any > > > > > attachment > > > > > hereto is not intended to be used, and > > > > > cannot be > > > > > used, to (1) > > > > > avoid penalties imposed under the > > > > > Internal Revenue > > > > > Code or > > > > > (2) support the promotion or marketing of > > > > > any > > > > > transaction or > > > > > matter. This legend has been affixed > > > > > to > > > > > comply with U.S. > > > > > Treasury Regulations governing tax > practice._______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ brunians at brunians.org — 04 Nov 2009, 00:40 in reply to Jerry Friedman I didn't know that. I am actually a very ignorant person. I would have to modify my statement in light of that knowledge. I have no doubt that you are correct when you say this, Some plants that have male and female flowers on seperate stems seem to be ancient cultivers. These plants tend to be useful for food, drugs, as material for making tools etc. Good examples include cannabis and osage orange. I have to say that while this makes sense to me, I don't expect it to make sense to everybody. I have some ideas about history and deep history that are seriously at variance with the versions generally accepted these days, though (coincidentally or not) they are basically the same as Gene Wolfe's views on the same subjects. I do not know whether he agrees with my opinion expressed above: I hope to ask him some time. I suspect that he does or would. . > Then would you mind elaborating on those reasons? An > example of such a plant would be helpful. > > I'll give an example of why I doubt it: all willows are > dioecious, and very few have been cultivated. > > Jerry Friedman > > --- On Tue, 11/3/09, brunians at brunians.org wrote: > > It's not really a claim. I wouldn't > > call it a claim. > > > > I do have reasons why I say it, yes. > I wrote: > > > Do you have any basis for that extremely strange claim > > > about dioecious plants? Is there even a single > > > example? > > > > > > Jerry Friedman > > > > > > --- On Tue, 11/3/09, brunians at brunians.org > > > > > > wrote: > > > > From: brunians at brunians.org > > > > > > > > Pardon, I meant seperate male and > > > > female plants, not seperate flowers on > > > > the same stem. . > > > > > These plants with seperate male and female > > > > > flowers are > > > > > mostly ancient cultivers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > . > > > > > > The spiny orange of Able's bow. ? > > Wolfe > > has a hand carved walking stick > > of osage orange - carved by Joe Mayhew. > > > > > > Maclura pomifera > > > > > > From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia > > > > > > Osage-orange, Horse-apple or Bois D'Arc > > > > > > even know > > > > > > as the Drewedic > > > > > > Bullochus (Maclura pomifera) is > > > > > > dioeceous > > > > > > ? plant > > > > > > species, with male and female flowers > > > > > > ? on different > > > > > > plants. It is a small deciduous > > > > > > ? tree > > > > > > ? > > > > or > > > > large shrub , > > > > typically > > > > growing to 8-15 metres (26-49 ft) > > > > > > tall. The fruit , a > > > > > > multiple > > > > > > fruit > > > > > > , is roughly spherical, but bumpy, and > > > > > > 7-15 cm in > > > > > > diameter, and it is > > > > > > filled with a sticky white latex > > > > > > ? sap . In > > > > > > fall, its color turns a bright > > > > > > yellow-green and it > > > > > > has a faint odor > > > > > > similar to that of oranges > > > > > > .[1] <> > > > > > > The Osage-orange is commonly used as a > > > > > > tree row > > > > > > windbreak > > > > > > ? in prairie > > > > > > states, > > > > > > which gives it one of its > > > > > > colloquial names, "hedge apple". > > > > > > The trees acquired the name bois d'arc, > > > > > > or > > > > > > "bow-wood", from early French > > > > > > ? settlers who > > > > > > observed > > > > > > the wood being used for war clubs > > > > > > and bow-making by Native Americans > > .[3] > > > > <>? Meriwether Lewis > > > > was told that the people of the Osage > > > > Nation > > > > > > > > "esteem the wood of this tree for the > > > > making of > > > > their bows, that they > > > > travel many hundred miles in quest of > > > > it." Many > > > > modern bowyers assert > > > > the wood of the Osage Orange is superior > > > > even to > > > > English Yew for this > > > > purpose, though this opinion is by no > > > > means > > > > unanimous. The trees are > > > > also known as "bordarch" trees, most > > > > likely > > > > originating from a > > > > corruption of "bois d'arc." > > > > > > Any federal tax advice contained herein > > > > > > or in any > > > > > > attachment > > > > > > hereto is not intended to be used, and > > > > > > cannot be > > > > > > used, to (1) > > > > > > avoid penalties imposed under the > > > > > > Internal Revenue > > > > > > Code or > > > > > > (2) support the promotion or marketing of > > > > > > any > > > > > > transaction or > > > > > > matter. This legend has been affixed > > > > > > to > > > > > > comply with U.S. > > > > > > Treasury Regulations governing tax > > practice._______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Friedman — 04 Nov 2009, 06:16 in reply to brunians at brunians.org I can't argue with your new formulation, especially after you gave the examples I requested. On the other hand, it's easy to think of ancient cultivated plants that have flowers with both male and female parts--legumes, most cereals, fruits of the rose family, cotton, and flax--and others that have separate male and female flowers on the same plant--squashes, the calabash, and for a Wolfean connection, corn. Of course, if you ever learn Gene Wolfe's thoughts on these subjects, I hope you'll share them on this list. Jerry Friedman > --- On Tue, 11/3/09, brunians at brunians.org wrote: > I didn't know that. I am actually a very ignorant person. > > I would have to modify my statement in light of that > knowledge. I have no > doubt that you are correct when you say this, > > Some plants that have male and female flowers on seperate > stems seem to be > ancient cultivers. These plants tend to be useful for food, > drugs, as > material for making tools etc. Good examples include > cannabis and osage orange. > > I have to say that while this makes sense to me, I don't > expect it to make > sense to everybody. I have some ideas about history and > deep history that > are seriously at variance with the versions generally > accepted these days, > though (coincidentally or not) they are basically the same > as Gene Wolfe's > views on the same subjects. I do not know whether he agrees > with my > opinion expressed above: I hope to ask him some time. I > suspect that he > does or would. > > > . > > Then would you mind elaborating on those > > reasons? An > > example of such a plant would be helpful. > > > > I'll give an example of why I doubt it: all willows > > are > > dioecious, and very few have been cultivated. > > > > Jerry Friedman > > > > --- On Tue, 11/3/09, brunians at brunians.org > > > > wrote: > > > It's not really a claim. I wouldn't > > > call it a claim. > > > > > > I do have reasons why I say it, yes. > > I wrote: > > > > Do you have any basis for that extremely > > > > strange claim > > > > about dioecious plants? Is there even a single > > > > example? > > > > > > > > Jerry Friedman > > > > > > > > --- On Tue, 11/3/09, brunians at brunians.org > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > From: brunians at brunians.org > > > > > > > > > > Pardon, I meant seperate male and > > > > > female plants, not seperate flowers on > > > > > the same stem. . > > > > > > These plants with seperate male and > > > > > > female > > > > > > flowers are > > > > > > mostly ancient cultivers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > . > > > > > > > The spiny orange of Able's > > > > > > > bow. ? > > > Wolfe > > > has a hand carved walking stick > > > of osage orange - carved by Joe > > > Mayhew. > > > > > > > Maclura pomifera > > > > > > > From Wikipedia, the free > > > > > > > encyclopedia > > > > > > > Osage-orange, Horse-apple or > > > > > > > Bois D'Arc > > > > > > > even know > > > > > > > as the Drewedic > > > > > > > Bullochus (Maclura pomifera) is > > > > > > > dioeceous > > > > > > > ? plant > > > > > > > species, with male and female > > > > > > > flowers > > > > > > > ? on different > > > > > > > plants. It is a small deciduous > > > > > > > ? tree > > > > > > > ? > > > > > or > > > > > large shrub > > > > > , > > > > > typically > > > > > growing to 8-15 metres (26-49 ft) > > > > > > > tall. The fruit > > > > > > > , a > > > > > > > multiple > > > > > > > fruit > > > > > > > , is roughly spherical, but > > > > > > > bumpy, and > > > > > > > 7-15 cm in > > > > > > > diameter, and it is > > > > > > > filled with a sticky white > > > > > > > latex > > > > > > > ? sap > > > > > > > . In > > > > > > > fall, its color turns a bright > > > > > > > yellow-green and it > > > > > > > has a faint odor > > > > > > > similar to that of oranges > > > > > > > .[1] > <> > The Osage-orange is commonly > used as a > tree row > windbreak > ? in > prairie > states, > which gives it one of its > colloquial names, "hedge > apple". > > > > > > > The trees acquired the name bois > > > > > > > d'arc, > > > > > > > or > > > > > > > "bow-wood", from early French > > > > > > > ? settlers > > > > > > > who > > > > > > > observed > > > > > > > the wood being used for war clubs > > > > > > > and bow-making by Native > > > > > > > Americans > .[3] > > > > > <>? Meriwether Lewis > > > > > was told that the people of the > > > > > Osage > > > > > Nation > > > > > > > > > > "esteem the wood of this tree > > > > > for the > > > > > making of > > > > > their bows, that they > > > > > travel many hundred miles in > > > > > quest of > > > > > it." Many > > > > > modern bowyers assert > > > > > the wood of the Osage Orange is > > > > > superior > > > > > even to > > > > > English Yew for this > > > > > purpose, though this opinion is > > > > > by no > > > > > means > > > > > unanimous. The trees are > > > > > also known as "bordarch" trees, > > > > > most > > > > > likely > > > > > originating from a > > > > > corruption of "bois d'arc." > > > > > > > Any federal tax advice contained > > > > > > > herein > > > > > > > or in any > > > > > > > attachment > > > > > > > hereto is not intended to be > > > > > > > used, and > > > > > > > cannot be > > > > > > > used, to (1) > > > > > > > avoid penalties imposed under > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > Internal Revenue > > > > > > > Code or > > > > > > > (2) support the promotion or > > > > > > > marketing of > > > > > > > any > > > > > > > transaction or > > > > > > > matter. This legend has been > > > > > > > affixed > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > comply with U.S. > > > > > > > Treasury Regulations governing > > > > > > > tax > practice._______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ brunians at brunians.org — 04 Nov 2009, 15:53 in reply to Jerry Friedman Sure, not all ancient cultivated plants are like this. . > I can't argue with your new formulation, especially after > you gave the examples I requested. On the other hand, > it's easy to think of ancient cultivated plants that have > flowers with both male and female parts--legumes, most > cereals, fruits of the rose family, cotton, and flax--and > others that have separate male and female flowers on the > same plant--squashes, the calabash, and for a Wolfean > connection, corn. > > Of course, if you ever learn Gene Wolfe's thoughts on > these subjects, I hope you'll share them on this list. > > Jerry Friedman > > --- On Tue, 11/3/09, brunians at brunians.org wrote: > > I didn't know that. I am actually a very ignorant person. > > > > I would have to modify my statement in light of that > > knowledge. I have no > > doubt that you are correct when you say this, > > > > Some plants that have male and female flowers on seperate > > stems seem to be > > ancient cultivers. These plants tend to be useful for food, > > drugs, as > > material for making tools etc. Good examples include > > cannabis and osage orange. > > > > I have to say that while this makes sense to me, I don't > > expect it to make > > sense to everybody. I have some ideas about history and > > deep history that > > are seriously at variance with the versions generally > > accepted these days, > > though (coincidentally or not) they are basically the same > > as Gene Wolfe's > > views on the same subjects. I do not know whether he agrees > > with my > > opinion expressed above: I hope to ask him some time. I > > suspect that he > > does or would. > > > > > > . > > > Then would you mind elaborating on those > > > reasons? An > > > example of such a plant would be helpful. > > > > > > I'll give an example of why I doubt it: all willows > > > are > > > dioecious, and very few have been cultivated. > > > > > > Jerry Friedman > > > > > > --- On Tue, 11/3/09, brunians at brunians.org > > > > > > wrote: > > > > It's not really a claim. I wouldn't > > > > call it a claim. > > > > > > > > I do have reasons why I say it, yes. > > > I wrote: > > > > > Do you have any basis for that extremely > > > > > strange claim > > > > > about dioecious plants? Is there even a single > > > > > example? > > > > > > > > > > Jerry Friedman > > > > > > > > > > --- On Tue, 11/3/09, brunians at brunians.org > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > From: brunians at brunians.org > > > > > > > > > > > > Pardon, I meant seperate male and > > > > > > female plants, not seperate flowers on > > > > > > the same stem. . > > > > > > > These plants with seperate male and > > > > > > > female > > > > > > > flowers are > > > > > > > mostly ancient cultivers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > . > > > > > > > > The spiny orange of Able's > > > > > > > > bow. ? > > > > Wolfe > > > > has a hand carved walking stick > > > > of osage orange - carved by Joe > > > > Mayhew. > > > > > > > > Maclura pomifera > > > > > > > > From Wikipedia, the free > > > > > > > > encyclopedia > > > > > > > > Osage-orange, Horse-apple or > > > > > > > > Bois D'Arc > > > > > > > > even know > > > > > > > > as the Drewedic > > > > > > > > Bullochus (Maclura pomifera) is > > > > > > > > dioeceous > > > > > > > > ? plant > > > > > > > > species, with male and female > > > > > > > > flowers > > > > > > > > ? on different > > > > > > > > plants. It is a small deciduous > > > > > > > > ? tree > > > > > > > > ? > > > > > > or > > > > > > large shrub > > > > > > , > > > > > > typically > > > > > > growing to 8-15 metres (26-49 ft) > > > > > > > > tall. The fruit > > > > > > > > , a > > > > > > > > multiple > > > > > > > > fruit > > > > > > > > , is roughly spherical, but > > > > > > > > bumpy, and > > > > > > > > 7-15 cm in > > > > > > > > diameter, and it is > > > > > > > > filled with a sticky white > > > > > > > > latex > > > > > > > > ? sap > > > > > > > > . In > > > > > > > > fall, its color turns a bright > > > > > > > > yellow-green and it > > > > > > > > has a faint odor > > > > > > > > similar to that of oranges > > > > > > > > .[1] > > <> > > The Osage-orange is commonly > > used as a > > tree row > > windbreak > > ? in > > prairie > > states, > > which gives it one of its > > colloquial names, "hedge > > apple". > > > > > > > > The trees acquired the name bois > > > > > > > > d'arc, > > > > > > > > or > > > > > > > > "bow-wood", from early French > > > > > > > > ? settlers > > > > > > > > who > > > > > > > > observed > > > > > > > > the wood being used for war clubs > > > > > > > > and bow-making by Native > > > > > > > > Americans > > .[3] > > > > > > <>? Meriwether Lewis > > > > > > was told that the people of the > > > > > > Osage > > > > > > Nation > > > > > > > > > > > > "esteem the wood of this tree > > > > > > for the > > > > > > making of > > > > > > their bows, that they > > > > > > travel many hundred miles in > > > > > > quest of > > > > > > it." Many > > > > > > modern bowyers assert > > > > > > the wood of the Osage Orange is > > > > > > superior > > > > > > even to > > > > > > English Yew for this > > > > > > purpose, though this opinion is > > > > > > by no > > > > > > means > > > > > > unanimous. The trees are > > > > > > also known as "bordarch" trees, > > > > > > most > > > > > > likely > > > > > > originating from a > > > > > > corruption of "bois d'arc." > > > > > > > > Any federal tax advice contained > > > > > > > > herein > > > > > > > > or in any > > > > > > > > attachment > > > > > > > > hereto is not intended to be > > > > > > > > used, and > > > > > > > > cannot be > > > > > > > > used, to (1) > > > > > > > > avoid penalties imposed under > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > Internal Revenue > > > > > > > > Code or > > > > > > > > (2) support the promotion or > > > > > > > > marketing of > > > > > > > > any > > > > > > > > transaction or > > > > > > > > matter. This legend has been > > > > > > > > affixed > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > comply with U.S. > > > > > > > > Treasury Regulations governing > > > > > > > > tax > > practice._______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------