{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5510", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5510, "subject": "Urth Digest, Vol 63, Issue 5", "messages": 3, "voices": 3, "first": "2009-11-10T18:41:03+00:00", "last": "2009-11-10T23:23:47+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<4AF9B3BF.1030300@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-11-10T18:41:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 63, Issue 5", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was fortunate enough to read TFHoC first, as far as novels. I started noticing Wolfe as a writer of short stories.\n\nI sympathize with the complaint that the narrative of TWK is harder to follow. The universe in which it occurs is at least as complex as TBotNS's, having several levels as well as time \"travel.\" Not many smart and literate humans would be up to the task of coherently telling such a story. And on top of all that, Abel seems to be from the \"real\" world, which is of uncertain relation to the several otherworlds.\n\nI think the illusion of \"reality\" is much better sustained in the Sun and Whorl. That is to say, (1) it's more science fiction than fantasy and (2) it seems to take place in \"our\" universe, so at least my expectations were higher in terms of coherence. I approached those texts thinking, \"Make me believe!\" With TWK, I simply thought, \"Wizards! Knights! Giants! Oh my!\"\n\nReading TWK, I spent the first book wondering whether elves, dwarves, and orcs were going to show up---how far was Wolfe going to take this Mabinogion or Morte d'Arthur? Another way to put it is that basic relationships (such as geographical or temporal) seem less important, more flexible than in Sun and Whorl. And Abel doesn't try very hard to help us." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 3\nDate: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 20:18:59 -0600\nFrom: \"James Wynn\" \nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Wizard-Knight sucks, or,\tis there any scholarly\n\tresearch on it?\nMessage-ID: <0BBF4DDCD1B34379934AD0C15DE19953 at eMachinePC>\nContent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=\"iso-8859-1\";\n\treply-type=response" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Maybe Abel really is dumb and illiterate, but it was sometimes difficult \nto follow the narrative because Abel is a bad storyteller." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n\nWell, honestly, the part about being a bad story-teller is true of Severian, \nas well (to the extent that it IS true). The Book of the New Sun was the \nfirst Wolfe story I'd read. I told the guy who recommended it that I thought \nWolfe was a great creator of worlds but only a so-so writer. Then I read The \nFifth Head of Cerberus and decided that --based on the two novels-- he was \nthe best science fiction writer I'd ever read. But the \"weaknesses\" in the \nstory-telling in TWK (if they are weaknesses) are the same as those in \nTBotNS.\n\nJ. \n\n\n\n------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4AF9E7FC.30607@googlemail.com>", "from": { "name": "adamattman", "address": "adamattman at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-11-10T22:23:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 63, Issue 5", "in_reply_to": "<4AF9B3BF.1030300@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "that's plausible.\n\nand it reminds me of this: (taken from: \nhttp://mysite.verizon.net/~vze2tmhh/wolfeint.html)\n\nQ: What is the difference between science fiction and fantasy?\n\nGW: Plausibility, really. Science fiction is what you can make people \nbelieve; fantasy is what people have to suspend disbelief for. Many \nphysicists believe that there will never be a faster-than-light drive -- \nit's impossible. But you can make people believe in one, since they \ndon't know much physics. And there are some physicists who believe it is \npossible. If you talk about somebody genetically engineering unicorns, \nit's probably fantasy, because people don't believe in it. But it's so \nclose that you can almost touch it; we're almost at the point where we \ncan make a unicorn.\n\nSo it's all a matter of plausibility. Do people think, \"The future might \nbe like this?\" If so, it's science fiction. If they think, \"This could \nnever happen,\" that's fantasy.\n\n\n\n\n--------------------------\n\nI was fortunate enough to read TFHoC first, as far as novels. I started \nnoticing Wolfe as a writer of short stories.\n\nI sympathize with the complaint that the narrative of TWK is harder to \nfollow. The universe in which it occurs is at least as complex as \nTBotNS's, having several levels as well as time \"travel.\" Not many smart \nand literate humans would be up to the task of coherently telling such a \nstory. And on top of all that, Abel seems to be from the \"real\" world, \nwhich is of uncertain relation to the several otherworlds.\n\nI think the illusion of \"reality\" is much better sustained in the Sun \nand Whorl. That is to say, (1) it's more science fiction than fantasy \nand (2) it seems to take place in \"our\" universe, so at least my \nexpectations were higher in terms of coherence. I approached those texts \nthinking, \"Make me believe!\" With TWK, I simply thought, \"Wizards! \nKnights! Giants! Oh my!\"\n\nReading TWK, I spent the first book wondering whether elves, dwarves, \nand orcs were going to show up---how far was Wolfe going to take this \nMabinogion or Morte d'Arthur? Another way to put it is that basic \nrelationships (such as geographical or temporal) seem less important, \nmore flexible than in Sun and Whorl. And Abel doesn't try very hard to \nhelp us." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 3\nDate: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 20:18:59 -0600\nFrom: \"James Wynn\" \nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Wizard-Knight sucks, or, is there any scholarly\n research on it?\nMessage-ID: <0BBF4DDCD1B34379934AD0C15DE19953 at eMachinePC>\nContent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=\"iso-8859-1\";\n reply-type=response" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Maybe Abel really is dumb and illiterate, but it was sometimes \ndifficult > to follow the narrative because Abel is a bad storyteller." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n\nWell, honestly, the part about being a bad story-teller is true of \nSeverian, as well (to the extent that it IS true). The Book of the New \nSun was the first Wolfe story I'd read. I told the guy who recommended \nit that I thought Wolfe was a great creator of worlds but only a so-so \nwriter. Then I read The Fifth Head of Cerberus and decided that --based \non the two novels-- he was the best science fiction writer I'd ever \nread. But the \"weaknesses\" in the story-telling in TWK (if they are \nweaknesses) are the same as those in TBotNS.\n\nJ.\n\n\n------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6988.67.142.130.14.1257895427.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-11-10T23:23:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 63, Issue 5", "in_reply_to": "<4AF9B3BF.1030300@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I believe that TWK is Wolfe's speculations as to what might become of a\ndecent and relatively innocent young man of Celtic and Germanic descent,\nwho is not a Christian or, indeed, particularly religious, after he dies\nviolently.\n\nIt is cast in the form of a letter from beyond the grave.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I was fortunate enough to read TFHoC first, as far as novels. I started\nnoticing Wolfe as a writer of short stories.\n\nI sympathize with the complaint that the narrative of TWK is harder to\nfollow. The universe in which it occurs is at least as complex as\nTBotNS's, having several levels as well as time \"travel.\" Not many smart\nand literate humans would be up to the task of coherently telling such a\nstory. And on top of all that, Abel seems to be from the \"real\" world,\nwhich is of uncertain relation to the several otherworlds.\n\nI think the illusion of \"reality\" is much better sustained in the Sun and\nWhorl. That is to say, (1) it's more science fiction than fantasy and (2)\nit seems to take place in \"our\" universe, so at least my expectations were\nhigher in terms of coherence. I approached those texts thinking, \"Make me\nbelieve!\" With TWK, I simply thought, \"Wizards! Knights! Giants! Oh my!\"\n\nReading TWK, I spent the first book wondering whether elves, dwarves, and\norcs were going to show up---how far was Wolfe going to take this\nMabinogion or Morte d'Arthur? Another way to put it is that basic\nrelationships (such as geographical or temporal) seem less important, more\nflexible than in Sun and Whorl. And Abel doesn't try very hard to help us.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 3\nDate: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 20:18:59 -0600\nFrom: \"James Wynn\" " } ] } ] }