{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5512", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5512, "subject": "Plausibility", "messages": 3, "voices": 2, "first": "2009-11-12T01:59:58+00:00", "last": "2009-11-12T18:23:11+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<4AFB6C1E.1020702@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-11-12T01:59:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Plausibility", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That makes sense. Does it explain why Abel is so hard to follow? Certainly his material is bound to be looser, less subject to \"modern\" analysis. I was struck by Abel's lack of interest in his surroundings---it's very American in a way, and yet it fits the milieu.\n\nI think Severian's narrative is strengthened by a couple of other factors that tie into the plausibility principle but are separate from it. Mainly, he's Autarch, with a very clear place in the world and a biography that is more like a history or a hagiography. Every detail counts, as we know, and he knows it too. Wolfe may well have precise knowledge of Abel's comings and goings, but we don't necessarily need to.\n\nHowever, I can't argue that Severian has a better sense of the structure of his universe than Abel does. He may be better read, and probably learned a lot more as Autarch than he knew during his travels. But both characters have a distinctly medieval point of view. Severian attempts to explain what happened to him. Does Abel?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "----------------------------------------------------------------------\n\nMessage: 1\nDate: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 23:23:56 +0100\nFrom: adamattman \nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Urth Digest, Vol 63, Issue 5\nMessage-ID: <4AF9E7FC.30607 at googlemail.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed\n\nthat's plausible.\n\nand it reminds me of this: (taken from: \nhttp://mysite.verizon.net/~vze2tmhh/wolfeint.html)\n\nQ: What is the difference between science fiction and fantasy?\n\nGW: Plausibility, really. Science fiction is what you can make people \nbelieve; fantasy is what people have to suspend disbelief for. Many \nphysicists believe that there will never be a faster-than-light drive -- \nit's impossible. But you can make people believe in one, since they \ndon't know much physics. And there are some physicists who believe it is \npossible. If you talk about somebody genetically engineering unicorns, \nit's probably fantasy, because people don't believe in it. But it's so \nclose that you can almost touch it; we're almost at the point where we \ncan make a unicorn.\n\nSo it's all a matter of plausibility. Do people think, \"The future might \nbe like this?\" If so, it's science fiction. If they think, \"This could \nnever happen,\" that's fantasy.\n\n\n\n\n--------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<78918eac0911120526v31d6b3c6le77c839414e8ae6a@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Scott Wowra", "address": "swowra at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-11-12T13:26:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Plausibility", "in_reply_to": "<4AFB6C1E.1020702@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Able (not Abel) is a young teenager transformed into the body of a man.\nThink about how well you wrote as a teenager. Did you understand all of your\nmotivations and have perfect insight into your actions? I know I didn't. In\ncontrast, Severian has the wisdom of multitudes. Given that, Sev certainly\nhas more book-smarts and insight into his motivations...he can view his\nbehavior from 1000s of different perspectives. Comparing their abilities to\nself-reflect is a stretch and ultimately will make Able look like a dunce.\n\nSomeone commented that Able was a \"brute and a bully.\" Not sure that\ncharacterization holds water by the end of \"The Wizard.\" He seems to be\nfairly mature and certainly not a bully like he was early in The Knight. His\nultimate choice of desire over duty may not be heroic, but I tend to think\nmany of us would have made the same choice." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 8:59 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nThat makes sense. Does it explain why Abel is so hard to follow? Certainly\nhis material is bound to be looser, less subject to \"modern\" analysis. I was\nstruck by Abel's lack of interest in his surroundings---it's very American\nin a way, and yet it fits the milieu.\n\nI think Severian's narrative is strengthened by a couple of other factors\nthat tie into the plausibility principle but are separate from it. Mainly,\nhe's Autarch, with a very clear place in the world and a biography that is\nmore like a history or a hagiography. Every detail counts, as we know, and\nhe knows it too. Wolfe may well have precise knowledge of Abel's comings and\ngoings, but we don't necessarily need to.\n\nHowever, I can't argue that Severian has a better sense of the structure of\nhis universe than Abel does. He may be better read, and probably learned a\nlot more as Autarch than he knew during his travels. But both characters\nhave a distinctly medieval point of view. Severian attempts to explain what\nhappened to him. Does Abel?\n\n\n----------------------------------------------------------------------\n\nMessage: 1\nDate: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 23:23:56 +0100\nFrom: adamattman \nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Urth Digest, Vol 63, Issue 5\nMessage-ID: <4AF9E7FC.30607 at googlemail.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed\n\nthat's plausible.\n\nand it reminds me of this: (taken from:\nhttp://mysite.verizon.net/~vze2tmhh/wolfeint.html\n)\n\nQ: What is the difference between science fiction and fantasy?\n\nGW: Plausibility, really. Science fiction is what you can make people\nbelieve; fantasy is what people have to suspend disbelief for. Many\nphysicists believe that there will never be a faster-than-light drive --\nit's impossible. But you can make people believe in one, since they don't\nknow much physics. And there are some physicists who believe it is possible.\nIf you talk about somebody genetically engineering unicorns, it's probably\nfantasy, because people don't believe in it. But it's so close that you can\nalmost touch it; we're almost at the point where we can make a unicorn.\n\nSo it's all a matter of plausibility. Do people think, \"The future might be\nlike this?\" If so, it's science fiction. If they think, \"This could never\nhappen,\" that's fantasy.\n\n\n\n\n--------------------------\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4AFC528F.6020202@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-11-12T18:23:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Plausibility", "in_reply_to": "<78918eac0911120526v31d6b3c6le77c839414e8ae6a@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "True, but I was more struck by Able's rather flat interpretation of his universe---where is he, WHEN is he, the sequence of events that make up the plot---than his interpretation of his feelings. That's what I found hard to follow.\n\nAt any rate, while Severian does have those advantages (he is Autarch, as I said), Able does very well for himself despite, I think, lacking a strong analytical component to his personality, or a desire to understand or explain (or excuse)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 08:26:16 -0500\nFrom: Scott Wowra \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) Plausibility\nMessage-ID:\n\t<78918eac0911120526v31d6b3c6le77c839414e8ae6a at mail.gmail.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nAble (not Abel) is a young teenager transformed into the body of a man.\nThink about how well you wrote as a teenager. Did you understand all of your\nmotivations and have perfect insight into your actions? I know I didn't. In\ncontrast, Severian has the wisdom of multitudes. Given that, Sev certainly\nhas more book-smarts and insight into his motivations...he can view his\nbehavior from 1000s of different perspectives. Comparing their abilities to\nself-reflect is a stretch and ultimately will make Able look like a dunce.\n\nSomeone commented that Able was a \"brute and a bully.\" Not sure that\ncharacterization holds water by the end of \"The Wizard.\" He seems to be\nfairly mature and certainly not a bully like he was early in The Knight. His\nultimate choice of desire over duty may not be heroic, but I tend to think\nmany of us would have made the same choice.\n\nOn Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 8:59 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That makes sense. Does it explain why Abel is so hard to follow? Certainly\nhis material is bound to be looser, less subject to \"modern\" analysis. I was\nstruck by Abel's lack of interest in his surroundings---it's very American\nin a way, and yet it fits the milieu.\n\nI think Severian's narrative is strengthened by a couple of other factors\nthat tie into the plausibility principle but are separate from it. Mainly,\nhe's Autarch, with a very clear place in the world and a biography that is\nmore like a history or a hagiography. Every detail counts, as we know, and\nhe knows it too. Wolfe may well have precise knowledge of Abel's comings and\ngoings, but we don't necessarily need to.\n\nHowever, I can't argue that Severian has a better sense of the structure of\nhis universe than Abel does. He may be better read, and probably learned a\nlot more as Autarch than he knew during his travels. But both characters\nhave a distinctly medieval point of view. Severian attempts to explain what\nhappened to him. Does Abel?\n\n\n----------------------------------------------------------------------" } ] } ] }