{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5521", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5521, "subject": "The Guild's Revolutionary", "messages": 36, "voices": 16, "first": "2009-11-21T17:24:36+00:00", "last": "2009-11-24T19:06:57+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-11-21T17:24:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Guild's Revolutionary", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"How horrible. What is that behind it? That tangle of wire' and the great glass\nglobe over the table?\"\n\"Ah,\" said Master Gurloes. \"We call this the revolutionary. The subject lies\nhere. Will you, Chatelaine?\"\n...\n\"Severian, push up your handle there until this needle's here.\" A coil that had\nbeen as cold as a snake when I had touched it a moment before was warm now.\n\"What does it do?\"\n\"I couldn't describe it, Chatelaine. Anyway, I've never had it done, you see.\"\n...\nHer right hand was creeping upward, toward her eyes. I caught it and forced it\nback.\n\"I thought I saw my worst enemy, a kind of demon. And it was me.\"\nHer scalp was bleeding. I put clean lint there and taped it down, though I knew\nit would soon be gone. Curling, dark hairs were entangled in her fingers.\n\"Since then, I can't control my hands . . . I can if I think about it, if I know\nwhat they're doing. But it is so hard, and I'm getting tired.\" She rolled her\nhead away and spat blood. \"I bite myself. Bite the lining of my cheeks, and my\ntongue and lips. Once my hands tried to strangle me, and I thought oh good, I\nwill die now. But I only lost consciousness, and they must have lost their\nstrength, because I woke. It's like that machine, isn't it?\"\nI said, \"Allowin's necklace.\"\n\"But worse. My hands are trying to blind me now, to tear my eyelids away. Will I\nbe blind?\"\n\"Yes,\" I said.\n\"How long before I die?\"\n\"A month, perhaps. The thing in you that hates you will weaken as you weaken.\nThe revolutionary brought it to life, but its energy is your energy, and in the\nend you will die together.\"\n\"Severian . . .\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was reading Thomas Metzinger's _The Ego Tunnel_, and he mentioned\nthat there was a disorder called 'alien hand syndrome' where one hand\nattacks the rest of the body or pursues separate goals. From\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_hand_syndrome :" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "They feel that they have no control over the movements of the 'alien' hand, but that, instead, the hand has the capability of acting autonomously — i.e., independent of their voluntary control. The hand effectively has 'a will of its own.' Alien hands can perform complex acts such as undoing buttons, removing clothing, and manipulating tools. Alien behavior can be distinguished from reflexive behavior in that the former is flexibly purposive while the latter is obligatory. Sometimes the sufferer will not be aware of what the alien hand is doing until it is brought to his or her attention, or until the hand does something that draws their attention to its behavior." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sufferers of alien hand will often personify the rogue limb, for example believing it to be \"possessed\" by some intelligent or alien spirit or an entity that they may name or identify. There is a clear distinction between the behaviors of the two hands in which the affected hand is viewed as \"wayward\" and sometimes \"disobedient\" and generally out of the realm of their own voluntary control, while the unaffected hand is under normal volitional control. At times, particularly in patients who have sustained damage to the corpus callosum that connects the two cerebral hemispheres (see also split-brain), the hands appear to be acting in opposition to each other. For example, one patient was observed putting a cigarette into her mouth with her intact, 'controlled' hand (her right, dominant hand), following which her alien, non-dominant, left hand came up to grasp the cigarette, pull the cigarette out of her mouth, and toss it away before it could be lit by the controlled, dominant, right hand." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The character Dr. Strangelove in the movie Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb suffers from the syndrome. His hand seems to act in a more complex manner, so that it acts in accordance with his subconscious urges (e.g. atteempting to strangle himself, giving a Nazi salute,)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It appears to have been first described in the '40s and '50s, and\nnamed in the '70s. (_Shadow of the Torturer_ was published, of course,\nin 1980.)\n\nSo the Revolutionary induces, specifically alien hand syndrome.\nAnother case of Wolfe cloaking science behind fantasy ('like a\ndemon')?\n\n---\n\nOn a sidenote, I don't know if anyone has discussed this before, but\nisn't it odd Thecla is put to the Revolutionary? Gurloes specifically\nsays that the torturers don't decide the tortures, and the secret of\nthe Guild is that it alway obeys; so the sentence was someone else's.\nBut the Revolutionary is 'the most hallowed of all' the\ntorture-devices, and Gurloes also \"I couldn't describe it [what it\ndoes], Chatelaine. Anyway, I've never had it done, you see.\", both of\nwhich imply use is very rare." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern" } ] }, { "message_id": "<170860.29892.qm@web180208.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "John Smith", "address": "jsmith2627 at att.net" }, "date": "2009-11-21T18:40:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Guild's Revolutionary", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Isn't Thecla put to the Revolutionary because she is a revolutionary? ? Or at least associated with her sister, who has joined the revolutionary Vodalus. — Those who revolt against the sacred authority have their hands revolt against them.\nThe description of this torture gives me nightmares. ?Thanks, Gene.\n\nBest wishes,\n\n\n\nJack\n\n--- On Sat, 11/21/09, Gwern Branwen wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Gwern Branwen \nSubject: (urth) The Guild's Revolutionary\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Saturday, November 21, 2009, 12:24 PM\n\"How horrible. What is that behind it? That tangle of wire' and the great glass\nglobe over the table?\"\n\"Ah,\" said Master Gurloes. \"We call this the revolutionary. The subject lies\nhere. Will you, Chatelaine?\"\n...\n\"Severian, push up your handle there until this needle's here.\" A coil that had\nbeen as cold as a snake when I had touched it a moment before was warm now.\n\"What does it do?\"\n\"I couldn't describe it, Chatelaine. Anyway, I've never had it done, you see.\"\n...\nHer right hand was creeping upward, toward her eyes. I caught it and forced it\nback.\n\"I thought I saw my worst enemy, a kind of demon. And it was me.\"\nHer scalp was bleeding. I put clean lint there and taped it down, though I knew\nit would soon be gone. Curling, dark hairs were entangled in her fingers.\n\"Since then, I can't control my hands . . . I can if I think about it, if I know\nwhat they're doing. But it is so hard, and I'm getting tired.\" She rolled her\nhead away and spat blood. \"I bite myself. Bite the lining of my cheeks, and my\ntongue and lips. Once my hands tried to strangle me, and I thought oh good, I\nwill die now. But I only lost consciousness, and they must have lost their\nstrength, because I woke. It's like that machine, isn't it?\"\nI said, \"Allowin's necklace.\"\n\"But worse. My hands are trying to blind me now, to tear my eyelids away. Will I\nbe blind?\"\n\"Yes,\" I said.\n\"How long before I die?\"\n\"A month, perhaps. The thing in you that hates you will weaken as you weaken.\nThe revolutionary brought it to life, but its energy is your energy, and in the\nend you will die together.\"\n\"Severian . . .\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was reading Thomas Metzinger's _The Ego Tunnel_, and he mentioned\nthat there was a disorder called 'alien hand syndrome' where one hand\nattacks the rest of the body or pursues separate goals. From\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_hand_syndrome :" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "They feel that they have no control over the movements of the 'alien' hand, but that, instead, the hand has the capability of acting autonomously — i.e., independent of their voluntary control. The hand effectively has 'a will of its own.' Alien hands can perform complex acts such as undoing buttons, removing clothing, and manipulating tools. Alien behavior can be distinguished from reflexive behavior in that the former is flexibly purposive while the latter is obligatory. Sometimes the sufferer will not be aware of what the alien hand is doing until it is brought to his or her attention, or until the hand does something that draws their attention to its behavior." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sufferers of alien hand will often personify the rogue limb, for example believing it to be \"possessed\" by some intelligent or alien spirit or an entity that they may name or identify. There is a clear distinction between the behaviors of the two hands in which the affected hand is viewed as \"wayward\" and sometimes \"disobedient\" and generally out of the realm of their own voluntary control, while the unaffected hand is under normal volitional control. At times, particularly in patients who have sustained damage to the corpus callosum that connects the two cerebral hemispheres (see also split-brain), the hands appear to be acting in opposition to each other. For example, one patient was observed putting a cigarette into her mouth with her intact, 'controlled' hand (her right, dominant hand), following which her alien, non-dominant, left hand came up to grasp the cigarette, pull the cigarette out of her mouth, and toss it away before it could be lit by" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " the controlled, dominant, right hand." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The character Dr. Strangelove in the movie Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb suffers from the syndrome. His hand seems to act in a more complex manner, so that it acts in accordance with his subconscious urges (e.g. atteempting to strangle himself, giving a Nazi salute,)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It appears to have been first described in the '40s and '50s, and\nnamed in the '70s. (_Shadow of the Torturer_ was published, of course,\nin 1980.)\n\nSo the Revolutionary induces, specifically alien hand syndrome.\nAnother case of Wolfe cloaking science behind fantasy ('like a\ndemon')?\n\n---\n\nOn a sidenote, I don't know if anyone has discussed this before, but\nisn't it odd Thecla is put to the Revolutionary? Gurloes specifically\nsays that the torturers don't decide the tortures, and the secret of\nthe Guild is that it alway obeys; so the sentence was someone else's.\nBut the Revolutionary is 'the most hallowed of all' the\ntorture-devices, and Gurloes also \"I couldn't describe it [what it\ndoes], Chatelaine. Anyway, I've never had it done, you see.\", both of\nwhich imply use is very rare." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern" } ] }, { "message_id": "<538989.11308.qm@web50705.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-11-21T19:32:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Guild's Revolutionary", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- On Sat, 11/21/09, Gwern Branwen wrote:\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So the Revolutionary induces, specifically alien hand\nsyndrome." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "More like alien-body syndrome, as her mouth and both her\nhands attack her, not just her right hand. But I agree\nthat it's quite possible that alien-hand syndrome\ninspired Wolfe here." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Another case of Wolfe cloaking science behind fantasy\n('like a demon')?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd say the wires and needle give this definite\nscientific trappings.\n\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But the Revolutionary is 'the most hallowed of all' the\ntorture-devices, and Gurloes also \"I couldn't describe it\n[what it\ndoes], Chatelaine. Anyway, I've never had it done, you\nsee.\", both of which imply use is very rare." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't get that any of that implies that its use is rare.\nGurloes means he's never had it done to him, that is, he's\nnever been a victim of it (which is obvious, hence \"you\nsee\"). \"I couldn't describe it\" may mean he's not\nallowed to; whether that's true or not, he certainly\nknows as well as Severian what it does. And I don't\nthink \"the most hallowed of all\" implies anything about\nhow often it's used.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4B085165.7020306@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-11-21T20:45:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Guild's Revolutionary", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gwern Branwen wrote:\nIt appears to have been first described in the '40s and '50s, and\nnamed in the '70s. (_Shadow of the Torturer_ was published, of course,\nin 1980.)\n\nSo the Revolutionary induces, specifically alien hand syndrome.\nAnother case of Wolfe cloaking science behind fantasy ('like a\ndemon')?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it's a bit more specific version of the split-brain syndrome, \nwhich he also uses in \"The Death of Doctor Island\"." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-11-21T22:03:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Guild's Revolutionary", "in_reply_to": "<538989.11308.qm@web50705.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 1:40 PM, John Smith wrote:\n\nIsn't Thecla put to the Revolutionary because she is a revolutionary? Or at least associated\nwith her sister, who has joined the revolutionary Vodalus. Those who revolt against the\nsacred authority have their hands revolt against them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, Vodalus isn't really a rebel, and she's only associated with her\nsister, but anyway; that seems like a possible reason, but that's\nterrible - the method of execution chosen for a pun?\nBut now that I think about it, maybe that works. Just before they\nreach the Revolutionary, we read Gurloes say:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Behind it there .\n. . if you'll take a step this way you'll be able to see it better . . . is what\nwe call the apparatus. It is supposed to letter whatever slogan is demanded in\nthe client's flesh, but it is seldom in working order." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps this is interpreted otherwise by y'all, but to me this is a\nvery obviously a reference to Franz Kafak's \"In The Penal Colony\"\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_the_Penal_Colony\nIf one cannot use the writing machine to engrave 'do not rebel!' or\nwhatever, perhaps a joke like that is the best that can be done." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 2:32 PM, Jerry Friedman\n wrote:\n--- On Sat, 11/21/09, Gwern Branwen wrote:\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So the Revolutionary induces, specifically alien hand\nsyndrome." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "More like alien-body syndrome, as her mouth and both her\nhands attack her, not just her right hand. ?But I agree\nthat it's quite possible that alien-hand syndrome\ninspired Wolfe here." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's true; I don't see any mention in the WP article of losing\ncontrol of both hands or of one's mouth. (But then, in the split-brain\nscenarios Jeff suggests, there's still lateralization: a hand and the\nmouth go to one faction in the brain, and the other hand to the other;\nthere isn't alternating control of all of them.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Another case of Wolfe cloaking science behind fantasy\n('like a demon')?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'd say the wires and needle give this definite\nscientific trappings." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It definitely does, but it's still coy - 'lightning' rather than\n'electricity'. I remember in my first reading ever, this was the scene\nthat made me sure that the author really was working under a warped\nClarke's 3rd Law." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But the Revolutionary is 'the most hallowed of all' the\ntorture-devices, and Gurloes also \"I couldn't describe it\n[what it\ndoes], Chatelaine. Anyway, I've never had it done, you\nsee.\", both of which imply use is very rare." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't get that any of that implies that its use is rare.\nGurloes means he's never had it done to him, that is, he's\nnever been a victim of it (which is obvious, hence \"you\nsee\")." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But Thecla is not stupid; she knows Gurloes can't give her any\ndescription from having had the Revolutionary used on himself. So she\ncouldn't be asking for that, and Gurloes couldn't be answering that.\n'had it done' doesn't mean have it done to yourself. One can say 'I\nhad the roof done' or, 'My car broke down, so I couldn't go, you see';\nin this case, Gurloes never having actually used the Revolutionary\nexplains his reply best, and this also fits with the most-hallowed\ndescription." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"I couldn't describe it\" may mean he's not\nallowed to; whether that's true or not, he certainly\nknows as well as Severian what it does. ?And I don't\nthink \"the most hallowed of all\" implies anything about\nhow often it's used.\n\nJerry Friedman" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hallowed things don't get used all the time. The Shroud of Turin is\npublicly displayed every decade or so; the relics of Aachen Cathedral\nannually; the Ethiopian's 'Ark of the Covenant' never.\n\nNot to mention, if they were routinely using it, wouldn't it be\nbroken? The guns are headed that way, and guns seem more reliable than\nwhatever the Revolutionary is - the relatively simple mechanical\nengraver is already broken beyond their ability to repair.\n\n(I also searched through the 4 books; the Revolutionary is only\nmentioned 3 or 4 times after that, and always in a Thecla context.)" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4B086F89.10809@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-11-21T22:54:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Guild's Revolutionary", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Fascinating!\n\nThe \"apparatus\" is clearly a Kafka reference, and one that has been in \nmy memory since I first I read that story as a child.\n\nMy take on the exchange between Thecla and Gurloes involves Gurloes \ndeliberately and delicately misunderstanding Thecla's question. He knew \nwhat she was asking and politely declined to answer. As a deflecting \ndevice, he more or less pretended that he thought she meant \"What's it \nlike\"?, because he couldn't respond to her question as a technical one \nanyway.\n\nThe thing works entirely inside the brain with nothing to observe but \nthe effects afterward. Thus, Gurloes knew no more of its mechanism than \nwe do. The only way he could have more knowledge of it is by \nexperiencing it himself. So he treats her a little bit like a doctor \ntelling a child that \"it won't hurt\"---a white lie if you will. Also, \nhinting that when he's done with her she'll understand better than he \ncould have explained, so there is no point.\n\nIt used to drive me crazy that the Revolutionary doesn't spin, but I \nagree that the pun solution is unavoidable. However, it's notable that \nThecla doesn't already know how it works. It may or may not be used only \non high-ranking rebels, but you'd think some word would have gotten out \namong such people that the Revolutionary awaited them---or else why use it?\n\nOn the other hand, perhaps it is rare that the Guild gets such people at \nall, and therefore it uses the device only rarely." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "----------------------------------------------------------------------\n\nMessage: 1\nDate: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 17:03:16 -0500\nFrom: Gwern Branwen \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Guild's Revolutionary\nMessage-ID:\n\t\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8\n\nOn Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 1:40 PM, John Smith wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Isn't Thecla put to the Revolutionary because she is a revolutionary? Or at least associated\nwith her sister, who has joined the revolutionary Vodalus. Those who revolt against the\nsacred authority have their hands revolt against them.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, Vodalus isn't really a rebel, and she's only associated with her\nsister, but anyway; that seems like a possible reason, but that's\nterrible - the method of execution chosen for a pun?\nBut now that I think about it, maybe that works. Just before they\nreach the Revolutionary, we read Gurloes say:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " Behind it there .\n. . if you'll take a step this way you'll be able to see it better . . . is what\nwe call the apparatus. It is supposed to letter whatever slogan is demanded in\nthe client's flesh, but it is seldom in working order.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps this is interpreted otherwise by y'all, but to me this is a\nvery obviously a reference to Franz Kafak's \"In The Penal Colony\"\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_the_Penal_Colony\nIf one cannot use the writing machine to engrave 'do not rebel!' or\nwhatever, perhaps a joke like that is the best that can be done.\n\n\nOn Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 2:32 PM, Jerry Friedman\n wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "--- On Sat, 11/21/09, Gwern Branwen wrote:\n...\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "So the Revolutionary induces, specifically alien hand\nsyndrome.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "More like alien-body syndrome, as her mouth and both her\nhands attack her, not just her right hand. ?But I agree\nthat it's quite possible that alien-hand syndrome\ninspired Wolfe here.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's true; I don't see any mention in the WP article of losing\ncontrol of both hands or of one's mouth. (But then, in the split-brain\nscenarios Jeff suggests, there's still lateralization: a hand and the\nmouth go to one faction in the brain, and the other hand to the other;\nthere isn't alternating control of all of them.)\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Another case of Wolfe cloaking science behind fantasy\n('like a demon')?\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'd say the wires and needle give this definite\nscientific trappings.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It definitely does, but it's still coy - 'lightning' rather than\n'electricity'. I remember in my first reading ever, this was the scene\nthat made me sure that the author really was working under a warped\nClarke's 3rd Law.\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "But the Revolutionary is 'the most hallowed of all' the\ntorture-devices, and Gurloes also \"I couldn't describe it\n[what it\ndoes], Chatelaine. Anyway, I've never had it done, you\nsee.\", both of which imply use is very rare.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't get that any of that implies that its use is rare.\nGurloes means he's never had it done to him, that is, he's\nnever been a victim of it (which is obvious, hence \"you\nsee\").\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But Thecla is not stupid; she knows Gurloes can't give her any\ndescription from having had the Revolutionary used on himself. So she\ncouldn't be asking for that, and Gurloes couldn't be answering that.\n'had it done' doesn't mean have it done to yourself. One can say 'I\nhad the roof done' or, 'My car broke down, so I couldn't go, you see';\nin this case, Gurloes never having actually used the Revolutionary\nexplains his reply best, and this also fits with the most-hallowed\ndescription.\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"I couldn't describe it\" may mean he's not\nallowed to; whether that's true or not, he certainly\nknows as well as Severian what it does. “And I don't\nthink \"the most hallowed of all\" implies anything about\nhow often it's used.\n\nJerry Friedman\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hallowed things don't get used all the time. The Shroud of Turin is\npublicly displayed every decade or so; the relics of Aachen Cathedral\nannually; the Ethiopian's 'Ark of the Covenant' never.\n\nNot to mention, if they were routinely using it, wouldn't it be\nbroken” The guns are headed that way, and guns seem more reliable than\nwhatever the Revolutionary is - the relatively simple mechanical\nengraver is already broken beyond their ability to repair.\n\n(I also searched through the 4 books; the Revolutionary is only\nmentioned 3 or 4 times after that, and always in a Thecla context.)\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "aaron", "address": "aaronsingleton at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-11-22T01:51:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Guild's Revolutionary", "in_reply_to": "<4B086F89.10809@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As I am sure most of you know, Wolfe seems to be fond of bad puns, so I\ndefinitely wouldn't put it past him to use one here. His sense of humor,\naccording to him, is pretty strange." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 5:54 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nFascinating!\n\nThe \"apparatus\" is clearly a Kafka reference, and one that has been in my\nmemory since I first I read that story as a child.\n\nMy take on the exchange between Thecla and Gurloes involves Gurloes\ndeliberately and delicately misunderstanding Thecla's question. He knew what\nshe was asking and politely declined to answer. As a deflecting device, he\nmore or less pretended that he thought she meant \"What's it like\"?, because\nhe couldn't respond to her question as a technical one anyway.\n\nThe thing works entirely inside the brain with nothing to observe but the\neffects afterward. Thus, Gurloes knew no more of its mechanism than we do.\nThe only way he could have more knowledge of it is by experiencing it\nhimself. So he treats her a little bit like a doctor telling a child that\n\"it won't hurt\"---a white lie if you will. Also, hinting that when he's done\nwith her she'll understand better than he could have explained, so there is\nno point.\n\nIt used to drive me crazy that the Revolutionary doesn't spin, but I agree\nthat the pun solution is unavoidable. However, it's notable that Thecla\ndoesn't already know how it works. It may or may not be used only on\nhigh-ranking rebels, but you'd think some word would have gotten out among\nsuch people that the Revolutionary awaited them---or else why use it?\n\nOn the other hand, perhaps it is rare that the Guild gets such people at\nall, and therefore it uses the device only rarely." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "----------------------------------------------------------------------\n\nMessage: 1\nDate: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 17:03:16 -0500\nFrom: Gwern Branwen \n\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Guild's Revolutionary\nMessage-ID:\n \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8\n\n\nOn Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 1:40 PM, John Smith wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Isn't Thecla put to the Revolutionary because she is a revolutionary?\nOr at least associated\nwith her sister, who has joined the revolutionary Vodalus. Those who\nrevolt against the\nsacred authority have their hands revolt against them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, Vodalus isn't really a rebel, and she's only associated with her\nsister, but anyway; that seems like a possible reason, but that's\nterrible - the method of execution chosen for a pun?\nBut now that I think about it, maybe that works. Just before they\nreach the Revolutionary, we read Gurloes say:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " Behind it\nthere .\n. . if you'll take a step this way you'll be able to see it better . . .\nis what\nwe call the apparatus. It is supposed to letter whatever slogan is\ndemanded in\nthe client's flesh, but it is seldom in working order." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Perhaps this is interpreted otherwise by y'all, but to me this is a\nvery obviously a reference to Franz Kafak's \"In The Penal Colony\"\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_the_Penal_Colony\nIf one cannot use the writing machine to engrave 'do not rebel!' or\nwhatever, perhaps a joke like that is the best that can be done.\n\n\nOn Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 2:32 PM, Jerry Friedman\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "--- On Sat, 11/21/09, Gwern Branwen wrote:\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "So the Revolutionary induces, specifically alien hand\nsyndrome." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "More like alien-body syndrome, as her mouth and both her\nhands attack her, not just her right hand. ?But I agree\nthat it's quite possible that alien-hand syndrome\ninspired Wolfe here." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That's true; I don't see any mention in the WP article of losing\ncontrol of both hands or of one's mouth. (But then, in the split-brain\nscenarios Jeff suggests, there's still lateralization: a hand and the\nmouth go to one faction in the brain, and the other hand to the other;\nthere isn't alternating control of all of them.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Another case of Wolfe cloaking science behind fantasy\n('like a demon')?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I'd say the wires and needle give this definite\nscientific trappings." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It definitely does, but it's still coy - 'lightning' rather than\n'electricity'. I remember in my first reading ever, this was the scene\nthat made me sure that the author really was working under a warped\nClarke's 3rd Law." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "But the Revolutionary is 'the most hallowed of all' the\ntorture-devices, and Gurloes also \"I couldn't describe it\n[what it\ndoes], Chatelaine. Anyway, I've never had it done, you\nsee.\", both of which imply use is very rare." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I don't get that any of that implies that its use is rare.\nGurloes means he's never had it done to him, that is, he's\nnever been a victim of it (which is obvious, hence \"you\nsee\")." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But Thecla is not stupid; she knows Gurloes can't give her any\ndescription from having had the Revolutionary used on himself. So she\ncouldn't be asking for that, and Gurloes couldn't be answering that.\n'had it done' doesn't mean have it done to yourself. One can say 'I\nhad the roof done' or, 'My car broke down, so I couldn't go, you see';\nin this case, Gurloes never having actually used the Revolutionary\nexplains his reply best, and this also fits with the most-hallowed\ndescription." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "\"I couldn't describe it\" may mean he's not\nallowed to; whether that's true or not, he certainly\nknows as well as Severian what it does. “And I don't\nthink \"the most hallowed of all\" implies anything about\nhow often it's used.\n\nJerry Friedman" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Hallowed things don't get used all the time. The Shroud of Turin is\npublicly displayed every decade or so; the relics of Aachen Cathedral\nannually; the Ethiopian's 'Ark of the Covenant' never.\n\nNot to mention, if they were routinely using it, wouldn't it be\nbroken” The guns are headed that way, and guns seem more reliable than\nwhatever the Revolutionary is - the relatively simple mechanical\nengraver is already broken beyond their ability to repair.\n\n(I also searched through the 4 books; the Revolutionary is only\nmentioned 3 or 4 times after that, and always in a Thecla context.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<84D73864-A63A-4CC8-AD9F-CF9C7B400D25@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-11-22T02:26:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Guild's Revolutionary", "in_reply_to": "<4B086F89.10809@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Nov 21, 2009, at 4:54 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nFascinating!\n\nThe \"apparatus\" is clearly a Kafka reference, and one that has been in my memory since I first I read that story as a child." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It strikes me that we could probably learn a lot if there were some way to get everything in Wolfe that seems obvious to some reader and pile all of those together in one place. For instance, I was all aboard the \"Nessus is Buenos Aires\" train when I read _BotNS_ first at 13 or 14, because I was also in the throes of a Borges phase and Master Ultan was obviously, clearly, no question about it, Borges. Same with \"Baldanders.\"\n\nLater I found out this might be controversial.\n\nI strongly suspect if we actually put everything together that each reader had always said \"Well, DUH, I didn't mention it because I thought everyone knew it already,\" then we'd actually discover a lot of stuff.\n\nSort-of-speaking-of-which as someone-who-likes-Baum-way-too-much (although I think Wolfe is Just Plain Wrong about Ruth Plumly Thompson), man, \"The Eyeflash Miracles\" is brilliant.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-11-22T02:49:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Guild's Revolutionary", "in_reply_to": "<84D73864-A63A-4CC8-AD9F-CF9C7B400D25@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 9:26 PM, Adam Thornton wrote:\n\nOn Nov 21, 2009, at 4:54 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Fascinating!\n\nThe \"apparatus\" is clearly a Kafka reference, and one that has been in my memory since I first I read that story as a child." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It strikes me that we could probably learn a lot if there were some way to get everything in Wolfe that seems obvious to some reader and pile all of those together in one place. ?For instance, I was all aboard the \"Nessus is Buenos Aires\" train when I read _BotNS_ first at 13 or 14, because I was also in the throes of a Borges phase and Master Ultan was obviously, clearly, no question about it, Borges. ?Same with \"Baldanders.\"\n\nLater I found out this might be controversial.\n\nI strongly suspect if we actually put everything together that each reader had always said \"Well, DUH, I didn't mention it because I thought everyone knew it already,\" then we'd actually discover a lot of stuff.\n\nSort-of-speaking-of-which as someone-who-likes-Baum-way-too-much (although I think Wolfe is Just Plain Wrong about Ruth Plumly Thompson), man, \"The Eyeflash Miracles\" is brilliant.\n\nAdam" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It would be nice, but it's hard to do. I mean, if I were reading\nthrough _Shadow_ again and I saw the Kafka ref, I wouldn't say 'hm, I\nwonder if that's on THE LIST already; I'd better get up, go to my\ncomputer, fire up my browser, and check'. I'd just go 'Kafka' and\ncontinue on. The best way would be to have a webpage of the text of\n_Shadow_, in a wiki perhaps, and then one could read the text instead\nof one's book and on reaching that line go, 'why, I see no footnote\nlink, despite it quite obviously being a ref; I think I shall add it.'\n\nOf course, the hard-to-do part is that annotated _Shadow_ pages are\ncopyvios, and while Wolfe has been very obliging of Andre-Driussi, he\nis also listed as co-author and still I don't see very much quoting in\nmy _Lexicon Urthus_ (at least, nowhere near as much as I would've\nused), which suggests to me that Wolfe takes his copyright seriously." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern" } ] }, { "message_id": "<570010.61574.qm@web50704.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-11-22T05:56:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Guild's Revolutionary", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- On Sat, 11/21/09, Gwern Branwen wrote:\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 1:40 PM, John\nSmith \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Isn't Thecla put to the Revolutionary because she is a\nrevolutionary????Or at least associated\nwith her sister, who has joined the revolutionary\nVodalus. ??Those who revolt against the\nsacred authority have their hands revolt against\nthem." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, Vodalus isn't really a rebel," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He's not? I must have missed something." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and she's only associated with her sister," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not so sure. Thecla says at the end of Ch. XII,\n\"It [the revolutionary, or the part of her that hates\nherself] is a thing from Erebus, from Abaia, a fit\ncompanion for me. Vodalus...\" I think she mentions\nthose names because they're who she supported or at least\nsympathized with. The self-hatred caused by the\nrevolutionary may be making her exaggerate, but it seems\nsignificant that she mentions Erebus and Abaia rather\nthan accusing herself of cowardly loyalty to the\ncorrupt Commonwealth or selfishly enjoying her position\nwhile others starved, or some such." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "but anyway; that seems like a possible reason, but\nthat's\nterrible - the method of execution chosen for a pun?\nBut now that I think about it, maybe that works. Just\nbefore they\nreach the Revolutionary, we read Gurloes say:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " ? ? ? ? ? ?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "???Behind it there ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": ". . if you'll take a step this way you'll be able to\nsee it better . . . is what\nwe call the apparatus. It is supposed to letter\nwhatever slogan is demanded in\nthe client's flesh, but it is seldom in working\norder." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps this is interpreted otherwise by y'all, but to me\nthis is a\nvery obviously a reference to Franz Kafak's \"In The Penal\nColony\"\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_the_Penal_Colony\nIf one cannot use the writing machine to engrave 'do not\nrebel!' or\nwhatever, perhaps a joke like that is the best that can be\ndone." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree completely about \"In the Penal Colony\". That's\neven something I noticed myself, unlike alien-hand\nsyndrome or Ultan as a tribute to Borges.\n\nHowever, I think the revolutionary got its name because\nthat's what it does--it's not a pun at all. It creates\nsomething that overthrows the mind's governance of itself.\nAnd to the people of the Commonwealth, this is an entirely\nfitting punishment for treason (which is probably what\nThecla is condemned for, whether she's guilty or not).\nLetting the punishment fit the crime is important to them--\nnot only does Thecla say that, but Palaemon tells Severian\nit would be \"fitting\" for him to die by the revolutionary\n(XIII).\n\nI think this answers David Stockhoff's question about\nwhy they bother to use the revolutionary given that people\ndon't know about it, so it doesn't have deterrent value.\nMany people in our culture, including me, are\nconsequentialists, but people in the Commonwealth may\nnot be so much. The fitness of the punishment is a\ngood enough reason without any useful consequences." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 2:32 PM, Jerry Friedman\n\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "--- On Sat, 11/21/09, Gwern Branwen \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Another case of Wolfe cloaking science behind\nfantasy ('like a demon')?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Like a demon\" is how Thecla sees something hateful and\nhostile. She doesn't have a scientific outlook, but I\nthink a lot of people who do would use a similar\ndescription. So I don't see this as a cloak." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'd say the wires and needle give this definite\nscientific trappings." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It definitely does, but it's still coy - 'lightning' rather\nthan 'electricity'." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Though they do have a word for electricity, which Gurloes\nforgets or pretends to forget." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I remember in my first reading ever, this\nwas the scene\nthat made me sure that the author really was working under\na warped Clarke's 3rd Law." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can see that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "But the Revolutionary is 'the most hallowed of\nall' the\ntorture-devices, and Gurloes also \"I couldn't\ndescribe it\n[what it\ndoes], Chatelaine. Anyway, I've never had it done,\nyou\nsee.\", both of which imply use is very rare." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't get that any of that implies that its use is\nrare. Gurloes means he's never had it done to him,\n that is, he's never been a victim of it (which is\n obvious, hence \"you see\")." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But Thecla is not stupid; she knows Gurloes can't give her\nany description from having had the Revolutionary used on\nhimself. So she couldn't be asking for that," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I partially agree with David Stockhoff here. Gurloes is\npretending to misunderstand because he has some reason\nnot to tell Thecla how her punishment works. (Earlier\nshe asks whether he plans to explain whatever will be\nused on her, and he says, \"No, no, I wouldn't do that.\")\n\nI'm not sure what his reason is, though. Maybe it's\nsome kind of politeness or consideration, as David\nsuggests, or maybe he's not allowed to, or it's part\nof his pretense of being simple, or he's gloating over\nhis superior knowledge, or he's annoying her by\npretending to misunderstand in a way that makes her\nlook stupid." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and Gurloes couldn't be answering that.\n'had it done' doesn't mean have it done to yourself. One\ncan say 'I had the roof done' or, 'My car broke down,\nso I couldn't go, you see';" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's a common phrase, though I don't like it. I get\n72,700 Google hits for \"I've had my car break down\" and\n117,000 for \"I had my car break down\". The ones I looked\nat have no implication that the person wanted it to happen.\n\nBy the way, it's in character for Gurloes to use a non-\nstandard expression like that. He says of the khaibits,\n\"when they're laying down\" (VII). Maybe this is part of\nhis pretense of being a \"dull creature\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "in this case, Gurloes never having actually used the\nRevolutionary explains his reply best," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This may be one of those situations where different\npeople think different readings are obvious." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and this also fits with the most-hallowed description." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"I couldn't describe it\" may mean he's not\nallowed to; whether that's true or not, he certainly\nknows as well as Severian what it does. ?And I don't\nthink \"the most hallowed of all\" implies anything\nabout\nhow often it's used.\n\nJerry Friedman" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hallowed things don't get used all the time. The Shroud of\nTurin is\npublicly displayed every decade or so; the relics of Aachen\nCathedral\nannually; the Ethiopian's 'Ark of the Covenant' never." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But those things have no practical use." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not to mention, if they were routinely using it, wouldn't\nit be\nbroken? The guns are headed that way, and guns seem more\nreliable than\nwhatever the Revolutionary is - the relatively simple\nmechanical\nengraver is already broken beyond their ability to repair." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A piece of electrical equipment might well last longer.\nAnd sometimes the things that don't get used break down. (I\nhope my turntable's ears are burning.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(I also searched through the 4 books; the Revolutionary is\nonly\nmentioned 3 or 4 times after that, and always in a Thecla\ncontext.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But that's true of Allowin's necklace and the kite, too.\n\nGurloes seems to use \"hallowed\" as a synonym for \"old\", which\ntells us something about he (and Commonwealth people in\ngeneral) see things. I'm not sure we can draw any\nconclusions from it beyond that.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4B092F5E.1030105@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-11-22T12:32:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Guild's Revolutionary", "in_reply_to": "<570010.61574.qm@web50704.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "True. It's because Wolfe uses so many literary antecedents. AND bad \npuns. Both of which fit into the \"duh\" category---if you've read the \nauthor in question, or if you get the pun. What a huge project that \nwould be ... ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Sat, 21 Nov \n2009 20:26:40 -0600 From: Adam Thornton To: The Urth \nMailing List Subject: Re: (urth) The Guild's \nRevolutionary Message-ID: <84D73864-A63A-4CC8-AD9F-CF9C7B400D25 at io.com> \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"us-ascii\" On Nov 21, 2009, at 4:54 " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nFascinating!\n\nThe \"apparatus\" is clearly a Kafka reference, and one that has been in my memory since I first I read that story as a child." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It strikes me that we could probably learn a lot if there were some way to get everything in Wolfe that seems obvious to some reader and pile all of those together in one place. For instance, I was all aboard the \"Nessus is Buenos Aires\" train when I read _BotNS_ first at 13 or 14, because I was also in the throes of a Borges phase and Master Ultan was obviously, clearly, no question about it, Borges. Same with \"Baldanders.\"\n\nLater I found out this might be controversial.\n\nI strongly suspect if we actually put everything together that each reader had always said \"Well, DUH, I didn't mention it because I thought everyone knew it already,\" then we'd actually discover a lot of stuff.\n\nSort-of-speaking-of-which as someone-who-likes-Baum-way-too-much (although I think Wolfe is Just Plain Wrong about Ruth Plumly Thompson), man, \"The Eyeflash Miracles\" is brilliant.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4B09D009.4030807@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-11-22T23:58:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Guild's Revolutionary", "in_reply_to": "<4B092F5E.1030105@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good thoughts ... ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Sat, \n21 Nov 2009 21:56:08 -0800 (PST) From: Jerry Friedman \n To: The Urth Mailing List \n Subject: Re: (urth) The Guild's Revolutionary \nMessage-ID: <570010.61574.qm at web50704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Content-Type: \ntext/plain; charset=iso-8859-1\n\nI'm not so sure. Thecla says at the end of Ch. XII,\n\"It [the revolutionary, or the part of her that hates\nherself] is a thing from Erebus, from Abaia, a fit\ncompanion for me. Vodalus...\" I think she mentions\nthose names because they're who she supported or at least\nsympathized with. The self-hatred caused by the\nrevolutionary may be making her exaggerate, but it seems\nsignificant that she mentions Erebus and Abaia rather\nthan accusing herself of cowardly loyalty to the\ncorrupt Commonwealth or selfishly enjoying her position\nwhile others starved, or some such.\n\n---Because it's the body that rebels against the mind, I would think that even rebels have some idea of the nature of Erebus and Abaia, and Erebus and Abaia must be emblems of rebellion to most people. And therefore I'd think that the technology came from the stars, and that's simply what she's saying.\n\nBut if \"it\" refers to her own personal rebel, not the device---I like that. Thecla sees the nature of her punishment clearly, in that case. So it's just like the Kafka machine---it teaches as it punishes and kills. See next ...\n\n...\n\nHowever, I think the revolutionary got its name because\nthat's what it does--it's not a pun at all. It creates\nsomething that overthrows the mind's governance of itself.\nAnd to the people of the Commonwealth, this is an entirely\nfitting punishment for treason (which is probably what\nThecla is condemned for, whether she's guilty or not).\nLetting the punishment fit the crime is important to them--\nnot only does Thecla say that, but Palaemon tells Severian\nit would be \"fitting\" for him to die by the revolutionary\n(XIII).\n\nI think this answers David Stockhoff's question about\nwhy they bother to use the revolutionary given that people\ndon't know about it, so it doesn't have deterrent value.\nMany people in our culture, including me, are\nconsequentialists, but people in the Commonwealth may\nnot be so much. The fitness of the punishment is a\ngood enough reason without any useful consequences.\n\n---Perfect! It fits with the Kafka device. In fact, that was probably a clue telling us that all the devices should be read in a parallel manner---that they are all meant to \"fit\" the crime.\n\nAnd of course words change over time in a sometimes punlike way. If \"revolutionary\" doesn't quite fit to our ears---it shouldn't.\n\n...\n\nI partially agree with David Stockhoff here. Gurloes is\npretending to misunderstand because he has some reason\nnot to tell Thecla how her punishment works. (Earlier\nshe asks whether he plans to explain whatever will be\nused on her, and he says, \"No, no, I wouldn't do that.\")\n\nI'm not sure what his reason is, though. Maybe it's\nsome kind of politeness or consideration, as David\nsuggests, or maybe he's not allowed to, or it's part\nof his pretense of being simple, or he's gloating over\nhis superior knowledge, or he's annoying her by\npretending to misunderstand in a way that makes her\nlook stupid.\n\n---Thanks for reminding me of that bit of dialog---I looked it up and I'm even more convinced Gurloes simply didn't want to be, in a sense, \"crude.\" :)\n\n...\n\nBut that's true of Allowin's necklace and the kite, too.\n\nGurloes seems to use \"hallowed\" as a synonym for \"old\", which\ntells us something about he (and Commonwealth people in\ngeneral) see things. I'm not sure we can draw any\nconclusions from it beyond that.\n\n---I agree.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<475393.31162.qm@web50712.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-11-23T06:05:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Guild's Revolutionary", "in_reply_to": "<4B09D009.4030807@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- On Sun, 11/22/09, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\nThanks for the kind words!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Sat, 21 Nov\n2009 21:56:08 -0800 (PST) From: Jerry Friedman" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not so sure. Thecla says at the end of Ch. XII,\n\"It [the revolutionary, or the part of her that hates\nherself] is a thing from Erebus, from Abaia, a fit\ncompanion for me. Vodalus...\"? I think she\nmentions\nthose names because they're who she supported or at least\nsympathized with. The self-hatred caused by the\nrevolutionary may be making her exaggerate, but it seems\nsignificant that she mentions Erebus and Abaia rather\nthan accusing herself of cowardly loyalty to the\ncorrupt Commonwealth or selfishly enjoying her position\nwhile others starved, or some such.\n\n---Because it's the body that rebels against the mind, I\nwould think that even rebels have some idea of the nature of\nErebus and Abaia, and Erebus and Abaia must be emblems of\nrebellion to most people. And therefore I'd think that the\ntechnology came from the stars, and that's simply what she's\nsaying." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I hadn't thought that it meant the technology came from\nthe stars--an interesting point.\n\nBut still, from what you said, the punishment seems fit for\nher only if she is or sees herself as a rebel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But if \"it\" refers to her own personal rebel, not the\ndevice---I like that. Thecla sees the nature of her\npunishment clearly, in that case. So it's just like the\nKafka machine---it teaches as it punishes and kills. See\nnext ..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\n\nYour mentioning teaching reminds me that the torturers\nare the Seekers of Truth and Penitence--not deterrence\nor retribution.\n\nBy the way, while rereading to look these things up, I\nfinally realized why it sounded familiar when the lochage\ntold Severian that if he didn't cover his clothes, he'd\ncause a riot. It was reminiscent of a scene in John\nBrunner's /Stand on Zanzibar/, where the mere presence\nof one of the main characters (Norman House) in the wrong\npart of the city causes so much tension, which he's\nunaware of, that a slight provocation sets off a riot.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<20091123104638.E33C14800C@diego.dreamhost.com>", "from": { "name": "Mo Holkar / UKG", "address": "lists at ukg.co.uk" }, "date": "2009-11-23T10:46:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Guild's Revolutionary", "in_reply_to": "<84D73864-A63A-4CC8-AD9F-CF9C7B400D25@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 02:26 22/11/2009, you wrote:\nIt strikes me that we could probably learn a lot if there were some \nway to get everything in Wolfe that seems obvious to some reader and \npile all of those together in one place. For instance, I was all \naboard the \"Nessus is Buenos Aires\" train when I read _BotNS_ first \nat 13 or 14, because I was also in the throes of a Borges phase and \nMaster Ultan was obviously, clearly, no question about it, \nBorges. Same with \"Baldanders.\"\n\nLater I found out this might be controversial.\n\nI strongly suspect if we actually put everything together that each \nreader had always said \"Well, DUH, I didn't mention it because I \nthought everyone knew it already,\" then we'd actually discover a lot of stuff." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Someone (Dan'l?) a while ago started a plot summary of BotNS on the \nWolfe Wiki -- that might be a good place to accumulate such \nreferences. At the moment it just has a para for each chapter, but it \nwould make sense to either link those through to a more detailed \npage, or add such material to this page:\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=TheShadowOfTheTorturer.DetailedSummary\n\nbest wishes,\n\nMo\n\n\n\n# ~ # ~ #\n\nWolfeWiki -- a wiki about Gene Wolfe\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/ " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4B0A7256.9030502@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-11-23T11:30:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Guild's Revolutionary", "in_reply_to": "<4B086F89.10809@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nIt used to drive me crazy that the Revolutionary doesn't spin, but I \nagree that the pun solution is unavoidable. However, it's notable that \nThecla doesn't already know how it works. It may or may not be used only \non high-ranking rebels, but you'd think some word would have gotten out \namong such people that the Revolutionary awaited them---or else why use it?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's less of a pun than a Dantean contrapasso, I would say." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On the other hand, perhaps it is rare that the Guild gets such people at \nall, and therefore it uses the device only rarely." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Like most activities on Urth, \"tradition\" is probably the largest reason." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3FDDF63E-B907-4A70-B23C-CD92AD607747@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-11-23T13:59:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Guild's Revolutionary", "in_reply_to": "<4B0A7256.9030502@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Nov 23, 2009, at 5:30 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\n\nIt's less of a pun than a Dantean contrapasso, I would say." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Potato/dried tuber.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-11-23T14:00:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Guild's Revolutionary", "in_reply_to": "<84D73864-A63A-4CC8-AD9F-CF9C7B400D25@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "For instance, I was all aboard the \"Nessus is Buenos Aires\" train when\nI read _BotNS_ first at 13 or 14, because I was also in the throes of a\nBorges phase and Master Ultan was obviously, clearly, no question\nabout it, Borges. Same with \"Baldanders.\"\nLater I found out this might be controversial." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've always thought the Borges=Ultan theory was tenuous. Not impossible, \njust not much supporting it beyond Utlan's blindness. Borges is a great \nwriter, but other than \"The Book of Imaginary Beings\" which cites the \nBaldanders, I haven't noted much influence from him. Of course, that might \nbe due to a deficiency in my Borges knowledge." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I strongly suspect if we actually put everything together that each\nreader had always said \"Well, DUH, I didn't mention it because I\nthought everyone knew it already,\" then we'd actually discover a lot of \nstuff." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay. While Wolfe might well have been introduced to the monster \n\"Baldanders\" by Borges, it comes from the Renaissance fantasy story \n\"Simplicius Simplicissimus\". \nAccording to the story, the name means \"first one thing and then another\" \nbecause, like the wizard Taleisan, it is always changing into other things. \nAlthough I can think of several reasons why Wolfe might have been attracted \nto a \"successive monster\", as Borges calls it, I have no idea how this \nrelates to Wolfe's Frankenstein.\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mark Millman", "address": "markjmillman at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-11-23T15:21:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Guild's Revolutionary", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dear Mr. Wynn," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Monday 23 November 2009, you wrote:\nI've always thought the Borges=Ultan\ntheory was tenuous. Not impossible,\njust not much supporting it beyond\nUtlan's blindness. . . ." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's also the fact that both Ultan and Borges were national\nlibrarians of their respective countries." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Okay. While Wolfe might well have been\nintroduced to the monster \"Baldanders\"\nby Borges, it comes from the Renais-\nsance fantasy story \"Simplicius Simpli-\ncissimus\". According to the story, the\nname means \"first one thing and then\nanother\" because, like the wizard Talei-\nsan, it is always changing into other\nthings. Although I can think of several\nreasons why Wolfe might have been at-\ntracted to a \"successive monster\", as\nBorges calls it, I have no idea how this\nrelates to Wolfe's Frankenstein." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have two different editions of the Simplicissimus, both of which\nlack the sixth book in which, according to Borges, Baldanders appears.\n What edition do you have, and who prepared it? I'd like to look for\na copy of my own.\n\nFor those list members who haven't encountered it, the Simplicissimus\nis a sort of German Candide set during the Thirty Years' War. The\nsixth book, which was added late in the author's life, is, as I\nunderstand it, considerably more fantastic than the novel's preceding\nbooks, although there are fantastic episodes earlier, with a\nparticularly long one falling in the fifth book. My guess is that\nmodern editors are primarily interested in the work's realistic\naspects and omit the sixth book as an inferior late addition. While\nit's not well known in the English-speaking world today (although I\njust found an on-line version at\nhttp://rbsche.people.wm.edu/teaching/grimmelshausen/ and there are a\ncouple of reasonably accurate Wikipedia articles on it and its\nauthor), many German authorities consider it to be the beginning of\nthe modern German novel tradition." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "J." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Best,\n\nMark Millman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0911230725i1023c92fh69d38ce764beca53@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-11-23T15:25:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Guild's Revolutionary", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mark, thanks for sharing that. Had I ever looked to a copy of the book for\nthe reference and not found the chapter, I would've assumed Borges had\ninvented the conceit a an extra, \"secret\" chapter. Now I'll never make that\nmistake." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 10:21 AM, Mark Millman wrote:\nDear Mr. Wynn,\n\nOn Monday 23 November 2009, you wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I've always thought the Borges=Ultan\ntheory was tenuous. Not impossible,\njust not much supporting it beyond\nUtlan's blindness. . . ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There's also the fact that both Ultan and Borges were national\nlibrarians of their respective countries." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Okay. While Wolfe might well have been\nintroduced to the monster \"Baldanders\"\nby Borges, it comes from the Renais-\nsance fantasy story \"Simplicius Simpli-\ncissimus\". According to the story, the\nname means \"first one thing and then\nanother\" because, like the wizard Talei-\nsan, it is always changing into other\nthings. Although I can think of several\nreasons why Wolfe might have been at-\ntracted to a \"successive monster\", as\nBorges calls it, I have no idea how this\nrelates to Wolfe's Frankenstein." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have two different editions of the Simplicissimus, both of which\nlack the sixth book in which, according to Borges, Baldanders appears.\n What edition do you have, and who prepared it? I'd like to look for\na copy of my own.\n\nFor those list members who haven't encountered it, the Simplicissimus\nis a sort of German Candide set during the Thirty Years' War. The\nsixth book, which was added late in the author's life, is, as I\nunderstand it, considerably more fantastic than the novel's preceding\nbooks, although there are fantastic episodes earlier, with a\nparticularly long one falling in the fifth book. My guess is that\nmodern editors are primarily interested in the work's realistic\naspects and omit the sixth book as an inferior late addition. While\nit's not well known in the English-speaking world today (although I\njust found an on-line version at\nhttp://rbsche.people.wm.edu/teaching/grimmelshausen/ and there are a\ncouple of reasonably accurate Wikipedia articles on it and its\nauthor), many German authorities consider it to be the beginning of\nthe modern German novel tradition." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "J." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Best,\n\nMark Millman\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-11-23T16:11:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Guild's Revolutionary", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 9:00 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "For instance, I was all aboard the \"Nessus is Buenos Aires\" train when\nI read _BotNS_ first at 13 or 14, because I was also in the throes of a\nBorges phase and Master Ultan was obviously, clearly, no question\nabout it, Borges. ?Same with \"Baldanders.\"\nLater I found out this might be controversial." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I've always thought the Borges=Ultan theory was tenuous. Not impossible,\njust not much supporting it beyond Utlan's blindness. Borges is a great\nwriter, but other than \"The Book of Imaginary Beings\" which cites the\nBaldanders, I haven't noted much influence from him. Of course, that might\nbe due to a deficiency in my Borges knowledge." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, besides all the many gobsmackingly obvious parallels, I believe\nWolfe in interviews has said as much (I'm sure I've read him say\nUltan=Borges in some of the interviews in _Shadows of the New Sun_,\nalthough I'm not sure which one of my photocopies has it)." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mark Millman", "address": "markjmillman at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-11-23T16:15:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Guild's Revolutionary", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0911230725i1023c92fh69d38ce764beca53@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dear John," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Monday 23 November 2009, you wrote:\nMark, thanks for sharing that. Had I\never looked to a copy of the book for\nthe reference and not found the chap-\nter, I would've assumed Borges had\ninvented the conceit a an extra, \"sec-\nret\" chapter. Now I'll never make that\nmistake." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I cannot, you should note, verify the sixth book's existence from my\nown experience, and had myself half-believed it to be an invention of\nBorges'. But Mr. Wynn's statement implies that his copy includes it,\nand I seem to recall that some of the criticism I've read has referred\nto it. For that matter, without Mr. Wynn's note, I might also think\nthat Borges had created Baldanders and claimed that he appears in the\nreally extant but rarely encountered sixth book, which strikes me as\nan even more Borgesian thing to do than does making up the sixth book\nwholesale.\n\nBest,\n\nMark Millman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F3C1E185BAF42EE8358E16DA39FFBBD@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-11-23T16:23:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Simplicissimus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have two different editions of the Simplicissimus, both of which\nlack the sixth book in which, according to Borges, Baldanders appears.\nWhat edition do you have, and who prepared it? I'd like to look for\na copy of my own." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mine is translated by George Schultz-Behrend and published by Bobbs-Merrill \n\"Library of Liberal Arts\". Yellow paperback. Red titling. HOWEVER, because \nthe translator believed chapters 2-18 would bore the modern reader, he \nsummarizes them. Until I read the introduction just now, I assume these \nsummaries were merely all that was extant of the text. This is his summary \nof the Baldanders chapter:\n\n\"ON a walk through the woods Simplicius finds a life-sized statue. It looks \nlike an old German hero; and when he tries to turn it over, it begins to \nspeak, saying its name is \"Soon-different,\" who has always been with him and \nwho will not leave him until he dies. It gives Simplicius a recipe for \nconversing with lifeless objects and , as if for fun, changes into about a \ndozen different shapes, but always remains its own true Soondifferent self. \nHaving changed into a bird, it flies away.\"\n\nBorges tells us that one of the things it changes into is a secretary that \nwrites \"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end.\" And this phrase \nis the key to a coded document that tells Simplicius how to talk to lifeless \nobjects (\"chairs, benches, pots and kettles\"). He also says that the \nBaldanders can change into a man, oak, sow, sausage, meadow full of clover, \ndung, flower, flowering branch, mulberry tree, silk tapestry, and \"many \nother things\". It's coat of arms is the \"inconstant moon\".\n\nHere's the cover of the first edition of Book 6 with a picture of the \nBaldanders.\nhttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1c/Simplicissimus_Cover_page1669.jpg/140px-Simplicissimus_Cover_page1669.jpg " } ] }, { "message_id": "<63FB9AC7E0AEC7459DBCC99DC44247CA057874E4@BOSIDEXDB.Bankofscotland.ie>", "from": { "name": "O'Donnell, Tim BOSI", "address": "tim.o'donnell at bankofscotland.ie" }, "date": "2009-11-23T16:26:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Guild's Revolutionary", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: \"James Wynn\" \nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Guild's Revolutionary\nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=\"iso-8859-1\";\n\treply-type=original" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "For instance, I was all aboard the \"Nessus is Buenos Aires\" train when\nI read _BotNS_ first at 13 or 14, because I was also in the throes of a\nBorges phase and Master Ultan was obviously, clearly, no question\nabout it, Borges. Same with \"Baldanders.\"\nLater I found out this might be controversial." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I've always thought the Borges=Ultan theory was tenuous. Not impossible, \njust not much supporting it beyond Utlan's blindness. Borges is a great \nwriter, but other than \"The Book of Imaginary Beings\" which cites the \nBaldanders, I haven't noted much influence from him. Of course, that might \nbe due to a deficiency in my Borges knowledge." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In terms of Borges influencing Wolfe (in general and BOTNS in particular),\nthe Borges story Funes the Memorious features a character who remembers \neverything in perfect detail, full text available here:\nhttp://evans-experientialism.freewebspace.com/borges.htm\n\n\nGene Wolfe has also commented on the influence of Borges:\n\nGW: Yes, I took the name of the giant who is still growing from The Book of Imaginary Beings, \nwhich may not be Borges's best work but which I felt free to steal from disgracefully because even \nsecond-rate Borges is very good indeed. Borges is capable of making up much better books and \nmonsters and authors than anyone can find in libraries.\n\n\nSource: http://www.themodernword.com/borges/borges_infl_wolfe.html" } ] }, { "message_id": "<95B577B74BDB468BB9E4197C54A2D9D1@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-11-23T17:17:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Borges", "in_reply_to": "<63FB9AC7E0AEC7459DBCC99DC44247CA057874E4@BOSIDEXDB.Bankofscotland.ie>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I've always thought the Borges=Ultan theory was tenuous.\nNot impossible, just not much supporting it beyond Utlan's\nblindness. Borges is a great writer, but other than \"The Book of\nImaginary Beings\" which cites the Baldanders, I haven't noted much\ninfluence from him. Of course, that might be due to a deficiency in\nmy Borges knowledge.[snip]While Wolfe might well have been\nintroduced to the monster \"Baldanders\" by Borges..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In terms of Borges influencing Wolfe (in general and BOTNS in particular),\nthe Borges story Funes the Memorious features a character who\nremembers everything in perfect detail\n[snip]\nGene Wolfe has also commented on the influence of Borges:\nGW: Yes, I took the name of the giant who is still growing from\nThe Book of Imaginary Beings" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, that certainly settles where he got the name, although how it relates \nto Wolfe's constantly growing giant is still a mystery to me.\n\nAnd also Borges was a blind librarian of South America. Even if one happily \nembraced the theory that Buenos Aires is Nessus, that's still a thin hook to \nhang a theory that Ultan was patterned on Borges...not that I don't *like* \nthe theory and it certainly does no harm. But while I heard and read Wolfe \nrepeatedly allude to Chesterton and Vance being \"influences\" (and he \nexplicitly identified The Dying Earth as his \"golden book\"), I've never \nheard him say that about Borges. Its seems such a grand honor to give to \nanother writer (some have even associated Cyby with Wolfe himself). It \nsuggests an association greater than mere professional and artistic \nadmiration.\n\nBy the way, does anyone have the lyrics to 70s folk band Ougenweide's song \n\"Bald Anders\"?\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<20091123172808.DHSC1164.eastrmmtao102.cox.net@eastrmimpo03.cox.net>", "from": { "name": "James B. Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2009-11-23T17:28:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Borges", "in_reply_to": "<95B577B74BDB468BB9E4197C54A2D9D1@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's been a while, but it seems to me that Ultan's library contains a \nbook that contains all other books. If so, that's the aleph book from Borges.\n\nNutria (are you guys still using such names?) JBJordan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "At 11:17 AM 11/23/2009, you wrote:\nI've always thought the Borges=Ultan theory was tenuous.\nNot impossible, just not much supporting it beyond Utlan's\nblindness. Borges is a great writer, but other than \"The Book of\nImaginary Beings\" which cites the Baldanders, I haven't noted much\ninfluence from him. Of course, that might be due to a deficiency in\nmy Borges knowledge.[snip]While Wolfe might well have been\nintroduced to the monster \"Baldanders\" by Borges..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In terms of Borges influencing Wolfe (in general and BOTNS in particular),\nthe Borges story Funes the Memorious features a character who\nremembers everything in perfect detail\n[snip]\nGene Wolfe has also commented on the influence of Borges:\nGW: Yes, I took the name of the giant who is still growing from\nThe Book of Imaginary Beings" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, that certainly settles where he got the name, although how it \nrelates to Wolfe's constantly growing giant is still a mystery to me.\n\nAnd also Borges was a blind librarian of South America. Even if one \nhappily embraced the theory that Buenos Aires is Nessus, that's \nstill a thin hook to hang a theory that Ultan was patterned on \nBorges...not that I don't *like* the theory and it certainly does no \nharm. But while I heard and read Wolfe repeatedly allude to \nChesterton and Vance being \"influences\" (and he explicitly \nidentified The Dying Earth as his \"golden book\"), I've never heard \nhim say that about Borges. Its seems such a grand honor to give to \nanother writer (some have even associated Cyby with Wolfe himself). \nIt suggests an association greater than mere professional and \nartistic admiration.\n\nBy the way, does anyone have the lyrics to 70s folk band \nOugenweide's song \"Bald Anders\"?\n\nJ.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-11-23T17:45:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Borges", "in_reply_to": "<20091123172808.DHSC1164.eastrmmtao102.cox.net@eastrmimpo03.cox.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 12:28 PM, James B. Jordan wrote:\nIt's been a while, but it seems to me that Ultan's library contains a book\nthat contains all other books. If so, that's the aleph book from Borges.\n\nNutria (are you guys still using such names?) JBJordan" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Fortunately, that's not quite it - even Borges's Library of Babel\ndoesn't contain itself. (Something of a contradiction.)\n\nWhat I think you're referring to:\n\n \"There is a cube of crystal here - though I can no longer tell you\nwhere - no larger than the ball of your thumb that contains more books than the\nlibrary itself does. Though a harlot might dangle it from one ear for an\nornament, there are not volumes enough in the world to counterweight the other.\"" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mark Millman", "address": "markjmillman at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-11-23T17:55:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Simplicissimus", "in_reply_to": "<4F3C1E185BAF42EE8358E16DA39FFBBD@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dear Mr. Wynn,\n\nThank you very much for this information.\n\nI agree; it's all too common for modern editors to summarize those\nchapters that deal with the fantastic. One of the editions I have\ndoes that, and it's very frustrating.\n\nBest,\n\nMark Millman" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Monday 23 November 2009, you wrote:\nMine is translated by George Schultz-\nBehrend and published by Bobbs-Merrill\n\"Library of Liberal Arts\". Yellow paper-\nback. Red titling. HOWEVER, because\nthe translator believed chapters 2-18\nwould bore the modern reader, he sum-\nmarizes them. Until I read the introduc-\ntion just now, I assume these summaries\nwere merely all that was extant of the\ntext. This is his summary of the Baldan-\nders chapter:\n\n\"ON a walk through the woods Simplicius\nfinds a life-sized statue. It looks like an\nold German hero; and when he tries to\nturn it over, it begins to speak, saying its\nname is \"Soon-different,\" who has always\nbeen with him and who will not leave him\nuntil he dies. It gives Simplicius a recipe\nfor conversing with lifeless objects and,\nas if for fun, changes into about a dozen\ndifferent shapes, but always remains its\nown true Soondifferent self. Having\nchanged into a bird, it flies away.\"\n\nBorges tells us that one of the things it\nchanges into is a secretary that writes\n\"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning\nand the end.\" ?And this phrase is the key\nto a coded document that tells Simplicius\nhow to talk to lifeless objects (\"chairs,\nbenches, pots and kettles\"). He also\nsays that the Baldanders can change\ninto a ?man, oak, sow, sausage, meadow\nfull of clover, dung, flower, flowering\nbranch, mulberry tree, silk tapestry, and\n\"many other things\". It's coat of arms is\nthe \"inconstant moon\".\n\nHere's the cover of the first edition of\nBook 6 with a picture of the Baldanders.\nhttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1c/Simplicissimus_Cover_page1669.jpg/140px-Simplicissimus_Cover_page1669.jpg" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2009-11-24T03:15:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Guild's Revolutionary", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, 23 Nov 2009, James Wynn wrote:\n\nnot much supporting it beyond Utlan's blindness. Borges is a great writer, \nbut other than \"The Book of Imaginary Beings\" which cites the Baldanders, I \nhaven't noted much influence from him. Of course, that might be due to a \ndeficiency in my Borges knowledge." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Father Inire echoes \"The Book of Imaginary Beings\" section \non fauna of mirrors.\n\nBorges has:\n\"the Fish was a shifting and shining creature that nobody had \never caught but that many said they had glimpsed in the depths of \nmirrors...The first to awaken will be the Fish. Deep in the mirror we \nwill perceive a very faint line and the color of this line will be like \nno other color.\"\n\nDavid Duffy." } ] }, { "message_id": "<061068913F22422BA90CE4A6AAC01641@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-11-24T04:03:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Guild's Revolutionary", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "not much supporting it beyond Utlan's blindness. Borges is a great \nwriter, but other than \"The Book of Imaginary Beings\" which cites the \nBaldanders, I haven't noted much influence from him. Of course, that \nmight be due to a deficiency in my Borges knowledge." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Father Inire echoes \"The Book of Imaginary Beings\" section on fauna of \nmirrors.\n\nBorges has:\n\"the Fish was a shifting and shining creature that nobody had ever caught \nbut that many said they had glimpsed in the depths of mirrors...The first \nto awaken will be the Fish. Deep in the mirror we will perceive a very \nfaint line and the color of this line will be like no other color.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Look, I'm not saying Wolfe hasn't read Borges, nor even that he doesn't like \nhim. Nor that he hasn't drawn from The Book of Imaginary Beings. I know he \nhas (even though he has apparently disparaged that little book somewhat). \nI'm speaking specifically of Master Ultan. It's a cool little concept to say \n\"Oh, Wolfe had Borges play that roll.\" It'd be neat to find all my favorite \nauthors on Urth. But if Ultan wasn't blind, no one would identify him with \nBorges either by his looks or words. And so essentially the argument is \nthat Ultan=Borges because Ultan is a blind librarian. But Palaemon is blind \ntoo, right? Who is he? So where is Vance? Don't you think he deserves to be \nhere? Or Chesterton?\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2009-11-24T04:54:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Guild's Revolutionary", "in_reply_to": "<061068913F22422BA90CE4A6AAC01641@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Mon, 23 Nov 2009, James Wynn wrote:\nnot much supporting it beyond Utlan's blindness. Borges is a great writer, \nbut other than \"The Book of Imaginary Beings\" which cites the Baldanders, \nI haven't noted much influence from him. Of course, that might be due to a \ndeficiency in my Borges knowledge." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Father Inire echoes \"The Book of Imaginary Beings\" section on fauna of \nmirrors.\n\nBorges has:\n\"the Fish was a shifting and shining creature that nobody had ever caught \nbut that many said they had glimpsed in the depths of mirrors...The first \nto awaken will be the Fish. Deep in the mirror we will perceive a very \nfaint line and the color of this line will be like no other color.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Look, I'm not saying Wolfe hasn't read Borges, nor even that he doesn't like \nhim. Nor that he hasn't drawn from The Book of Imaginary Beings. I know he \nhas (even though he has apparently disparaged that little book somewhat)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was just addressing:\n\n\"I haven't noted much influence from him.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm \nspeaking specifically of Master Ultan. It's a cool little concept to say \"Oh, \nWolfe had Borges play that role.\" It'd be neat to find all my favorite \nauthors on Urth. But if Ultan wasn't blind, no one would identify him with \nBorges either by his looks or words. And so essentially the argument is that \nUltan=Borges because Ultan is a blind librarian. But Palaemon is blind too, \nright? Who is he? So where is Vance? Don't you think he deserves to be here? \nOr Chesterton?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One might argue that the choice of a fantastical South America is due\nto reading Borges, rather than Chesterton or Vance. And how would one\nrecognize the latter two, as opposed to a blind librarian in a labyrinthine\nlibrary?\n\nBut yes, I would agree that there are no completely definitive \nclues to identifying models for anyone in the books. Even Neil Armstrong ;)\n\nCheers, David Duffy." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "| David Duffy (MBBS PhD) ,-_|\\\n| email: davidD at qimr.edu.au ph: INT+61+7+3362-0217 fax: -0101 / *\n| Epidemiology Unit, Queensland Institute of Medical Research \\_,-._/\n| 300 Herston Rd, Brisbane, Queensland 4029, Australia GPG 4D0B994A v" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8FA5637F-78C5-46F6-8DE3-989946ACCF23@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-11-24T04:58:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Guild's Revolutionary", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Nov 23, 2009, at 10:54 PM, David Duffy wrote:\nOne might argue that the choice of a fantastical South America is due\nto reading Borges, rather than Chesterton or Vance. And how would one\nrecognize the latter two, as opposed to a blind librarian in a labyrinthine\nlibrary?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, Chesterton would be a big fat dude with a cloak and a sword cane.\n\nVance, I dunno.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4B0B91BE.6030302@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-11-24T07:56:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Guild's Revolutionary", "in_reply_to": "<3FDDF63E-B907-4A70-B23C-CD92AD607747@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Adam Thornton wrote:\n\nOn Nov 23, 2009, at 5:30 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's less of a pun than a Dantean contrapasso, I would say." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Potato/dried tuber.\n\nAdam" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Goodness, is it my turn in the barrel again already?\n\nI'm not sure what you mean by that answer, could you please explain ti \nat greater length, Adam?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<822213.67288.qm@web32408.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-11-24T08:02:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Borges - Dictionary of Borges", "in_reply_to": "<95B577B74BDB468BB9E4197C54A2D9D1@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hey all,\n\nOne of the great things about this list, and about Wolfe in general, are the tangents you end up traveling on. God love google, I typed in Ulster and Borges (looking for an Ultan connection) and I came up with this:\nhttp://www.borges.pitt.edu/bsol/pdf/fishburn.pdf a 280 page Dictionary of Borges with a hyperlinked (I think that's right?) index. It has nothing to do with Ultan, as far as I can tell (though the word Ulster is somewhere in the document. heh) but who really cares. This is damn cool.\n\nyou're welcome\n\nDon\n\nDoggerel\nwww.don-doggett.blogspot.com" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Mon, 11/23/09, James Wynn wrote:\nFrom: James Wynn \nSubject: Re: (urth) Borges\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Monday, November 23, 2009, 10:17 AM\nI've always thought the\nBorges=Ultan theory was tenuous." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Not impossible, just not much supporting it beyond\nUtlan's\nblindness. Borges is a great writer, but other than\n\"The Book of\nImaginary Beings\" which cites the Baldanders, I\nhaven't noted much\ninfluence from him. Of course, that might be due to\na deficiency in\nmy Borges knowledge.[snip]While Wolfe might well\nhave been\nintroduced to the monster \"Baldanders\" by\nBorges..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In terms of Borges influencing Wolfe (in general and\nBOTNS in particular),\nthe Borges story Funes the Memorious features a\ncharacter who\nremembers everything in perfect detail\n[snip]\nGene Wolfe has also commented on the influence of\nBorges:\nGW: Yes, I took the name of the giant who is still\ngrowing from\nThe Book of Imaginary Beings" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, that certainly settles where he got the name,\nalthough how it relates \nto Wolfe's constantly growing giant is still a mystery to\nme.\n\nAnd also Borges was a blind librarian of South America.\nEven if one happily \nembraced the theory that Buenos Aires is Nessus, that's\nstill a thin hook to \nhang a theory that Ultan was patterned on Borges...not that\nI don't *like* \nthe theory and it certainly does no harm. But while I heard\nand read Wolfe \nrepeatedly allude to Chesterton and Vance being\n\"influences\" (and he \nexplicitly identified The Dying Earth as his \"golden\nbook\"), I've never \nheard him say that about Borges. Its seems such a grand\nhonor to give to \nanother writer (some have even associated Cyby with Wolfe\nhimself). It \nsuggests an association greater than mere professional and\nartistic \nadmiration.\n\nBy the way, does anyone have the lyrics to 70s folk band\nOugenweide's song \n\"Bald Anders\"?\n\nJ. \n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-11-24T14:15:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Guild's Revolutionary", "in_reply_to": "<4B0B91BE.6030302@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Nov 24, 2009, at 1:56 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nAdam Thornton wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Nov 23, 2009, at 5:30 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It's less of a pun than a Dantean contrapasso, I would say." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Potato/dried tuber.\nAdam" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Goodness, is it my turn in the barrel again already?\n\nI'm not sure what you mean by that answer, could you please explain ti at greater length, Adam?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh, all right, if you insist.\n\nI started from \"potato/po-tah-toe\", which is to say, one man's pun is another's Dantean contrapasso. Only then I got to thinking about _The Waste Land_, largely because of one of my own works in progress riffs on it a lot and it's been on my mind, since it is another highly allusive work. And that in turn suggested that one man's potato is another man's dried tuber (first few lines of _TWL_).\n\nMartin Rowson, in his graphical novel of the same name (a charming mashup of _The Waste Land_ and _The Big Sleep_ with nods to other noir pieces) further did a tremendously funny dried tuber/dried tuba visual pun, but the margin was too small to contain it.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<37bfbeb60911240814u324041a3hb834be896652e348@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jonathan Goodwin", "address": "joncgoodwin at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-11-24T16:14:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Guild's Revolutionary", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Those rhotic among us are unlikely to get this right away." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 8:15 AM, Adam Thornton wrote:\n\nOn Nov 24, 2009, at 1:56 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Adam Thornton wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Nov 23, 2009, at 5:30 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "It's less of a pun than a Dantean contrapasso, I would say." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Potato/dried tuber.\nAdam" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Goodness, is it my turn in the barrel again already?\n\nI'm not sure what you mean by that answer, could you please explain ti at greater length, Adam?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Oh, all right, if you insist.\n\nI started from \"potato/po-tah-toe\", which is to say, one man's pun is another's Dantean contrapasso. ?Only then I got to thinking about _The Waste Land_, largely because of one of my own works in progress riffs on it a lot and it's been on my mind, since it is another highly allusive work. ?And that in turn suggested that one man's potato is another man's dried tuber (first few lines of _TWL_).\n\nMartin Rowson, in his graphical novel of the same name (a charming mashup of _The Waste Land_ and _The Big Sleep_ with nods to other noir pieces) further did a tremendously funny dried tuber/dried tuba visual pun, but the margin was too small to contain it.\n\nAdam\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4B0C2ED1.1070605@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-11-24T19:06:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Guild's Revolutionary", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Adam Thornton wrote:\nOn Nov 24, 2009, at 1:56 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Adam Thornton wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Nov 23, 2009, at 5:30 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "It's less of a pun than a Dantean contrapasso, I would say." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Potato/dried tuber.\nAdam\nGoodness, is it my turn in the barrel again already?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm not sure what you mean by that answer, could you please explain ti at greater length, Adam?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Oh, all right, if you insist.\n\nI started from \"potato/po-tah-toe\", which is to say, one man's pun is another's Dantean contrapasso." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh, that I agree with. \"The Revolutionary\" is a pun on the part of \nwhoever on Urth gave it that name, while at the functional level it is a \ncontrapasso. The author chooses both, but the device of putting the pun \nin the chracters' mouths leaves the work with more dignity than if it \nwere a third person narrator cracking wise." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] } ] }