{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5527", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5527, "subject": "An Evil Guest: tone, and clones", "messages": 8, "voices": 3, "first": "2010-01-04T06:32:10+00:00", "last": "2010-01-04T20:52:11+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-01-04T06:32:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Evil Guest: tone, and clones", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So I've finally read it, and it was very interesting. The depth, if it\nis there (I'm not yet convinced), is much better hidden than in\n_Peace_ or _Fifth Head of Cerberus_ where half the time one is\nwondering what's the real story because the surface story is too dull\nto be worth writing.\n\nOne of the things that bothers me the most is Bill Reis's death.\n\nWe get several lines about him flickering in and out of visibility,\nand it seems to me that he almost chose the ceremony - how could Reis\nbe caught by the muscle-bound natives he equipped when the USG\ncouldn't? The latter had much better equipment and presumably also\nknew of his optickal skillz (from Gideon Chase if nothing else). And\nthe bat-men didn't interfere until *after*. They were able to take\nCassie away while having apparently no problems with the groundlings.\nCassie shooting Kanoa would disrupt things, yes, but altogether?\n\nAnd then there are the occasional mentions of cloning. Something I\ndon't think I've seen anyone mention is that maybe Wolfe is pulling an\n_Endymion_ or Young's \"The Dandelion Girl\": perhaps Reis slips out of\nthe execution, and now supposed to be dead, travels to Woldercon with\nChase, returning when he is old and gray back through time to the\nexecution. Because he's flickering in and out, no one would notice the\nsudden aging of Reis, and he could still live with Cassie.\n\nOr perhaps he isn't executed at all - we are only told of the sound of\nbreaking bone, and never that anyone actually sees his corpse or that\nhis death accomplishes anything. (We don't even know that Reis died\nand calmed the storm - Reis was not the only 'king' to die that night,\nor even that minute.) If Gideon Chase can simply lose a leg, Reis can\nhave his collarbone or arm smashed. I heard that a smashed skull makes\na different, squishier, sound than a bone breaking. A similar escape\nwould then ensue with the bat-men (an explanation why they couldn't\ncarry Cassie all the way - Reis is heavy), and thence with Chase to\nWoldercon.\n\nBut why would he go to Woldercon, then? His fortune is largely\nuntouched since it's globally dispersed, presumably. Fear of Cthulhu\nmight explain it: his gambit with the Navy may have failed and Cthulhu\nor the cultists have a good idea of who is responsible. Reis does say\nthat fear of depth-charges is what prevented Cthulhu from moving\nagainst him, so if the depth-charges are employed and are inutile, the\nfear is dispelled. Further, we wouldn't expect Reis to give up -\nCthulhu is evil and needs to be fought - and Woldercon is an excellent\nplace to look for eldritch allies and learn the other 2 arts. But why\nnot communicate with Cassie at all? This might be the real meaning of\nChase's message.\n\nOr perhaps a Reis does die in the ceremony, but there is no\ntime-shifting: it's just a clone swapped in. The dummy dies, and the\nreal one escapes. Flesh is flesh to hulking warriors.\n\nThat there are so many explanations, each equally bad and consistent,\nbothers me a lot.\n\nBut enough about clones!\n\nAnother thing that bothered me was the tone. I noticed it throughout,\nbut 2 example really struck me well enough that I remember them for\nthis email.\n\nThe first was the Japanese computer speaking in the classic racial 'me\nrikey very much' pattern. There's really no excuse for this\nin-universe, set in the far future where presumably the Japanese have\nfor centuries been a 1st-World industrialized technology powerhouse\nand have been for centuries successfully localizing their Mario games\nand whatnot for gaijin markets.\n\nI saw an earlier poster comment that Wolfe is just copying his source\nmaterial, but with some of it, he couldn't be. What pulp fiction ever\npostulated Japanese computers with voice synthesis which speak in turn\nof the century Charlie Chan tones?\n\nThe second example has even less excuse. While discussing the Squid\ncultists, one character speaks of California and casually drops in\namong his listing of pagans, Satanists, and other objectionable\nreligious riff-raff -- Buddhism. Leaving aside my personal offense (I\nhave the utmost respect for Buddhist theology & philosophy), this\ndoesn't even make sense as '20s-'40s material. California wasn't known\nfor Buddhism that early on. Western occultism was there, yes, as well\nas some Hinduism related stuff, but all the significant Buddhist\ninfluence was post-WWII - things like _Zen in the Art of Archery_\npostdate the '40s, and it was the '60s that saw most of the US\nmonasteries and institutions get started with the Beat Generation.\nWhat pulp fiction distinguished one fetishistic Eastern religion\nespoused by the Yellow Peril from another religion that Wolfe should\nsingle out Buddhism and not Hinduism?\n\nTo me, that just looks like bashing. It's as incongruous and unfair\nfrom my perspective as if Wolfe had instead included Calvinism in the\nlisting. Worse, actually, because I reasonably assume Wolfe knows a\nfair bit about Calvinism, but offhand, I can't remember anything in\n_Shadows of the New Sun_ (and a quick search of the OCR shows naught)\nor anything in any of my files even touching on Buddhism. I expect\nmore of him than that." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern" } ] }, { "message_id": "<0FBF8C6827BE483B8510A23E4B939347@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-01-04T09:16:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Evil Guest: tone, and clones", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That there are so many explanations, each equally bad and\nconsistent, bothers me a lot. But enough about clones!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or time travel or both.\n\nAt Dragon*Con, Wolfe said,\n\"Cassie loved Bill Reis and at the end of the novel she goes to Woldercon to \nlook for him.\"\n\nAfter a re-read, I'm convinced that Pavlatos is Casey years later. Sharon \nBench described the boy Chase healed and his mother as \"a little piece of a \nman she loved and lost.\" It is entirely reasonable to conclude, based on \nthat, that Rian is the result of Casey's trip to Woldercon, and the meaning \nof Wolfe's summation. I'm skeptical, however, about that last part. Rian \ncould be Chase's son and the Bench's reference could to the \"man\" could \nrefer to him. But this is a Wolfe novel, so they are probably the same guy \nsomehow, right? But that's impossible. It is impossible, right? Anyway, all \nthis suggests that Bench knows all about Pavlatos and that is why she \ndoesn't want Casey to approach her with the information given her.\n\nAnd then there's glamours, shape-changing, and inscrutable, contrary \nagendas...but enough about Gideon Chase.\n\nBut, yeah, the death of Reis is frustrating. As is Gideon's occultation \nafter Cassie goes to the island. As is, to a lesser extent, Margaret's exit \nfrom the story. The whole execution scene stinks. I refute the possibility \nthat it as it appears, but I can't really explain what is going on instead. \nThis is common with Wolfe, no? But I don't think even 'The Book of the Short \nSun' has a world that seems so inviting and interesting, yet presented so \nincomprehensibly. I'd read it again to try to connect more dots if I \nbelieved it would be fruitful, but I don't. Not without more stories based \nin this world.\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<7539.72.171.0.148.1262597848.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-01-04T09:37:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Evil Guest: tone, and clones", "in_reply_to": "<0FBF8C6827BE483B8510A23E4B939347@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There may very well be more stories forthcoming. I agree that there is\njust too little information for a Wolfe story: too many possible\nexplanations. A Wolfe story should narrow down more.\n\nThere was one already, in the same World. AEG even referred to it. Perhaps\nthere will be more. I bet there will be.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That there are so many explanations, each equally bad and\nconsistent, bothers me a lot. But enough about clones!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Or time travel or both.\n\nAt Dragon*Con, Wolfe said,\n\"Cassie loved Bill Reis and at the end of the novel she goes to Woldercon\nto\nlook for him.\"\n\nAfter a re-read, I'm convinced that Pavlatos is Casey years later. Sharon\nBench described the boy Chase healed and his mother as \"a little piece of\na\nman she loved and lost.\" It is entirely reasonable to conclude, based on\nthat, that Rian is the result of Casey's trip to Woldercon, and the\nmeaning\nof Wolfe's summation. I'm skeptical, however, about that last part. Rian\ncould be Chase's son and the Bench's reference could to the \"man\" could\nrefer to him. But this is a Wolfe novel, so they are probably the same guy\nsomehow, right? But that's impossible. It is impossible, right? Anyway,\nall\nthis suggests that Bench knows all about Pavlatos and that is why she\ndoesn't want Casey to approach her with the information given her.\n\nAnd then there's glamours, shape-changing, and inscrutable, contrary\nagendas...but enough about Gideon Chase.\n\nBut, yeah, the death of Reis is frustrating. As is Gideon's occultation\nafter Cassie goes to the island. As is, to a lesser extent, Margaret's\nexit\nfrom the story. The whole execution scene stinks. I refute the possibility\nthat it as it appears, but I can't really explain what is going on\ninstead.\nThis is common with Wolfe, no? But I don't think even 'The Book of the\nShort\nSun' has a world that seems so inviting and interesting, yet presented so\nincomprehensibly. I'd read it again to try to connect more dots if I\nbelieved it would be fruitful, but I don't. Not without more stories based\nin this world.\n\nJ.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-01-04T13:52:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Evil Guest: tone, and clones", "in_reply_to": "<0FBF8C6827BE483B8510A23E4B939347@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 4:16 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nThat there are so many explanations, each equally bad and\nconsistent, bothers me a lot. But enough about clones!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Or time travel or both.\n\nAt Dragon*Con, Wolfe said,\n\"Cassie loved Bill Reis and at the end of the novel she goes to Woldercon to\nlook for him.\"\n\nAfter a re-read, I'm convinced that Pavlatos is Casey years later. Sharon\nBench described the boy Chase healed and his mother as \"a little piece of a\nman she loved and lost.\" It is entirely reasonable to conclude, based on\nthat, that Rian is the result of Casey's trip to Woldercon, and the meaning\nof Wolfe's summation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\n\nI'll take it by 'Casey' you mean 'Cassie'. I had the same thought too\n(not sure whether I glanced over some Urth emails that primed me to\nit), but I ultimately rejected it.\n\nWhy? Because Cassie describes Pavlatos as a faded 'beauty', saying she\nhas dull brunette hair, yes? So the hair and thinness fit. But\nPavlatos is an old woman when Cassie meets her. How does Cassie know\nshe 'was' a beauty? Because of the many portraits of her in Pavlatos's\ncabin.\n\nNow, if Pavlatos == future Cassie, then those pictures would have to\nbe of star-powered Cassie. Surely faded Cassie could still remember\nwhat she looked like? Even a little piece like 'flaming red hair'\nwould trigger recognition, much less the whole enchilada.\n\nYes, star-powered Cassie doesn't look much like her previous self, but\nCassie has still seen and recognized previously a picture of her\nstar-powered self. So:\n1. if the portraits are of her old not-so-starry self, she would\nrecognize them instantly\n2. if they are of her old starry self, she would take some more time\nto recognize them but certainly not weeks\n3. if they were of her present self, she'd definitely have recognized\nthem (as upset about and focused upon her faded looks as she is)\n4. if they were of future Madam Pavlatos, Cassie would not have\ndescribed them as being of a beauty.\n\nThus, I conclude Pavlatos /= Cassie.\n\nWe could try to get around this. Perhaps Cassie is simply inferring\nthat 'Madam Pavlatos is so vain, and has such fine clothes and makeup,\nand carries herself in such a way, and has high cheekbones, and in our\nunmentioned conversations claims to have been a beauty, so I will\nassume she was a beauty.' But there are other problems with Pavlatos\n== Cassie.\n\nPavlatos is really rich - far richer than Cassie's bracelet could have\nmade her. Rich on a Reis or Chase scale, at the very least. But how\nwould future Cassie have gotten such a fortune? Cassie may have been\nReis's 'common law' wife, but she wisely makes no effort to contact\nRian Reis or claim any inheritance, so her fortune could not have\nstemmed from Reis's in the present, and if she goes to Woldercon,\nsomehow finds Bill Reis there, legally and incontrovertibly marries\nhim, the Earth inheritance would still have passed to Rian.\n\nWe could get around this too - the inheritance was undone, Rian\nsecretly set aside a fraction for her return, Cassie-Pavlatos learned\nalchemy on Woldercon and made her fortune thusly, etc. But like the\nexecution theories and the 'beauty' issue, the explanations are ad hoc\nand unsupported by anything I can remember." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6725F27D7ABC4D24B82840AB04D985B8@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-01-04T15:04:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Evil Guest: tone, and clones", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2. if they are of her old starry self, she would take some more time\nto recognize them but certainly not weeks" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think I'm missing something.\nCassie Casey takes 1 and a half steps into the stateroom and sees herself in \na mirror (presumably) even before she sees the pictures of Pavlatos. \nAssuming Cassie = Pavlatos why would she need the portraits at all? She \nlooks at Pavlatos and herself in the mirrored walls of the yacht and \nrealizes instantly that they are the same person. And then she breaks down \ninto tears." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Pavlatos is really rich - far richer than Cassie's bracelet could have\nmade her." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, maybe. Maybe not. Chase *did* promise to make Cassie wealthy out of \ntheir gambit. He didn't just promise her a major \"score\". He promised her \nwealth. Perhaps the bracelet is worth a great deal....ala the Hope diamond. \nFor the sake of argument, lets assume it isn't. Now we're moving corners \nWolfe (once again) did not delineate for whatever reason. Exactly how Chase \ncould have promised her \"wealth\" is still unresolved.\nPerhaps it is simply that Cassie is wealthy because Pavlatos is wealthy. \nPalvatos has already become wealthy and knows how it is to be done. She \nstakes Cassie with a certain amount of money and sends her to Woldercon with \ninstructions telling what to do to build their empire. Heck, it could be \nsimpler than that. She could just send her with half the money or more into \nthe past.\nErgo, Chase can promise Cassie wealth because she will \"inherit\" it, after \nshe pays a debt Pavlatos owes him by doing this little service.\n\n----------\n\nAs long as we are pointing out the endless plots that might be plugged into \nWolfe's crazy-quilt story, I want to put another log on the fire. Why \nCassie? Why did Chase pick her? Because he saw her on stage? The clone \ntheories are based on a trivial reference to cloning at the end of the book. \nWe assume this is referring to Ries because there seems to be more than one \nand then there's Rian. Fair enough. But the cloning reference was to Cassie \nherself. It is entirely possible that Cassie is a clone of Pavlatos. And \nmore infuriating, there is nothing to prevent this from being combined with \nthe Time travel theory I posted above (if Pavlatos is presumed old enough). \nPavlatos could have created a clone (Cassie) who she sends back into the \npast to become herself.\n\nJ.\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-01-04T15:23:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Evil Guest: tone, and clones", "in_reply_to": "<6725F27D7ABC4D24B82840AB04D985B8@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 10:04 AM, James Wynn wrote:\n2. if they are of her old starry self, she would take some more time\nto recognize them but certainly not weeks" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think I'm missing something.\nCassie Casey takes 1 and a half steps into the stateroom and sees herself in\na mirror (presumably) even before she sees the pictures of Pavlatos.\nAssuming Cassie = Pavlatos why would she need the portraits at all? She\nlooks at Pavlatos and herself in the mirrored walls of the yacht and\nrealizes instantly that they are the same person. And then she breaks down\ninto tears." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Re-reading the passage, it mentions *photographs* of Pavlatos. Going\nby the same logic, this is even more damning. Portraits are very\neasily faked or altered, but photos take effort to modify.\n\nAnd I don't think she would look at the mirrors and realize \"I'm\nseeing twins, so that means...\", since she describes herself as 'a\nwasted face, sunburned and deeply lined, surmounted by dirty, graying\nhair. A bent and barefoot old woman dressed in rags, with arms and\nlegs like sticks.\"\n\nThe thin and old part match Pavlatos, the rags can be replaced, the\nwasted face repaired by cosmetics, her fattened out to 'rake-thin'\n(however that compares to her starved condition) - but the hair\ndoesn't match at all, unless we're going to dismiss the photos,\nmirrors, fortune, and also postulate hair dye or a wig." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Pavlatos is really rich - far richer than Cassie's bracelet could have\nmade her." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, maybe. Maybe not. Chase *did* promise to make Cassie wealthy out of\ntheir gambit. He didn't just promise her a major \"score\". He promised her\nwealth. Perhaps the bracelet is worth a great deal....ala the Hope diamond." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is. Remember the passage about the 'awed' Barclays manager who\ninforms her she is now the wealthiest woman 'in the state'? And Reis\nsaid it was expensive, even for him. But unless the state is\nWashington or New York or Texas, wealthiest person in the state may\nnot place Cassie up at Pavalatos's level ('mistress of a thousand\nmillions'), and certainly not wealthiest woman. Women tend to be\nunderrepresented in the ranks of billionaires." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "For the sake of argument, lets assume it isn't. Now we're moving corners\nWolfe (once again) did not delineate for whatever reason. Exactly how Chase\ncould have promised her \"wealth\" is still unresolved." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure there's a problem here. Chase promised her a cool 100k.\nHe delivered on 20k of that, leaving 80k (unless I missed some\npayments). 80k is nowhere near enough, and even if she had asked for a\nmore reasonable payment like Chase's original demand of 50 million,\nstill not Pavlatos-level. Or are you thinking that since Chase was in\nlove with her as well, he would give her everything he had (which as a\nWoldercon alchemist presumably would be a lot)?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps it is simply that Cassie is wealthy because Pavlatos is wealthy.\nPalvatos has already become wealthy and knows how it is to be done. She\nstakes Cassie with a certain amount of money and sends her to Woldercon with\ninstructions telling what to do to build their empire. Heck, it could be\nsimpler than that. She could just send her with half the money or more into\nthe past.\nErgo, Chase can promise Cassie wealth because she will \"inherit\" it, after\nshe pays a debt Pavlatos owes him by doing this little service.\n\n----------\n\nAs long as we are pointing out the endless plots that might be plugged into\nWolfe's crazy-quilt story, I want to put another log on the fire. Why\nCassie? Why did Chase pick her? Because he saw her on stage?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Aren't we told by him that's why? He's a local who likes theater (as a\nwizard, no surprise), and he says he saw occasional flashes of\ngreatness buried in Cassie.\nIf we accept what he says about his starrifying process only working\nwith what is already in the person, it could be that Cassie was the\nonly poor person with star-potential he knew, and her position as\nactress was perfect for exploiting her newfound starpower." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The clone\ntheories are based on a trivial reference to cloning at the end of the book.\nWe assume this is referring to Ries because there seems to be more than one\nand then there's Rian. Fair enough. But the cloning reference was to Cassie\nherself. It is entirely possible that Cassie is a clone of Pavlatos. And\nmore infuriating, there is nothing to prevent this from being combined with\nthe Time travel theory I posted above (if Pavlatos is presumed old enough).\nPavlatos could have created a clone (Cassie) who she sends back into the\npast to become herself.\n\nJ." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A fun riff off of _Fifth Head_!" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern" } ] }, { "message_id": "<67317E0463404BF499DDE53949514433@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-01-04T16:24:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Evil Guest: tone, and clones", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gwern:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And I don't think she would look at the mirrors and realize \"I'm\nseeing twins, so that means...\", since she describes herself as 'a\nwasted face, sunburned and deeply lined, surmounted by dirty, graying\nhair. A bent and barefoot old woman dressed in rags, with arms and\nlegs like sticks.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is a staple of Wolfe characters that they see through the superficial to \nthe truth.\n\nGwern:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The thin and old part match Pavlatos" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "check.\n\nGwern:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": ", the rags can be replaced, the wasted face repaired by cosmetics, her \nfattened out to 'rake-thin'\n(however that compares to her starved condition)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "check, check, check\n\nGwern:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "- but the hair\ndoesn't match at all, unless we're going to dismiss the\nphotos, mirrors, fortune, and also postulate hair dye or a wig." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't see how these are impediments at all.\nWell, assuming she's a good deal older than Cassie, the hair is dyed. \nCassie's hair is auburn, right? That's technically a brunette. The text \ndoesn't say \"dark brown hair\" or \"black hair\". Auburn is between brunette \nand red hair as strawberry-blonde is between blonde and red hair. If a \nstrawberry blonde were referred to as \"blonde\", would you say \"that's \ntotally different\"?\n\nAnd of course we aren't told of Cassie's reaction to the photos, only her \nreaction to seeing herself in the mirror before she had an opportunity to \nlook at the photos. The photos might well include ones of her in a \nrestaurant with Gideon Chase and actor headshots. If Cassie is one of a \nseries of clones then they might be photos of lots of scenes she knows \nnothing about, however contemporaneous with her time.\n\nComing off the island, Cassie is haggard. Looking years older. So the mirror \nis all the confirmation she needs. I think the mirrors are intended as a \nmetaphor as much as a plot element.\n\nI'm not saying there anything *proven* here. I'm just befuddled that you \nthink the idea of Pavlatos = Cassie can be dispensed with. And, personally, \nbased on the Sharon Bench conversation and the mirrors in the stateroom, I'd \nbe surprised if P==C or C=P (that is, \"eventually becomes\") is not part of \nthis stew.\n\n\nGwern:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Pavlatos is really rich - far richer than Cassie's\nbracelet could have\nmade her." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Me:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " Perhaps the bracelet is worth a great deal\n....ala the Hope diamond." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gwern:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is. Remember the passage about the 'awed' Barclays manager who\ninforms her she is now the wealthiest woman 'in the state'?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, then, that's a pretty sweet stake to build a fortune on. Anyway, we \nknow she's wealthy but we really don't know *how* wealthy. She's got a \nyacht. That hardly requires that she be Warren Buffet.\n\nMe:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "For the sake of argument, lets assume it isn't. Now we're moving corners\nWolfe (once again) did not delineate for whatever reason. Exactly how \nChase\ncould have promised her \"wealth\" is still unresolved." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gwern:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not sure there's a problem here. Chase promised her a cool 100k.\n[snip]Or are you thinking that since Chase was in\nlove with her as well, he would give her everything\nhe had (which as a\nWoldercon alchemist presumably would be a lot)?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't *know* how he intended to make her wealthy. $100K is not what he \npromised her. It's the minimum payment she demanded. He had something else \nin mind or else, I think, he would have stated a precise amount in the first \nplace. Assuming he knows that Pavlatos is Cassie, then he could certainly \npromise that she would become wealthy due to their gambit. Otherwise, I \ndon't know.\n\nMe:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As long as we are pointing out the endless plots that might be plugged \ninto\nWolfe's crazy-quilt story, I want to put another log on the fire. Why\nCassie? Why did Chase pick her? Because he saw her on stage?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gwern:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Aren't we told by him that's why?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. This is a Wolfe novel. Doesn't the fact that he lays it all out in the \n1st or 2nd chapter make you a teensy suspicious? He promised to make her a \nstar, which he does although she never becomes famous (so far as we know). \nSo the one point (we think) we understand, he means something categorically \ndifferent from what Cassie thinks he means. He promises to make her wealthy \nalthough he never explains how his plan will accomplish that unless having \nher marry Reis was his plot from the beginning. There's more going on here.\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-01-04T20:52:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Evil Guest: tone, and clones", "in_reply_to": "<67317E0463404BF499DDE53949514433@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 11:24 AM, James Wynn wrote:\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gwern:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "- but the hair\ndoesn't match at all, unless we're going to dismiss the\nphotos, mirrors, fortune, and also postulate hair dye or a wig." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't see how these are impediments at all.\nWell, assuming she's a good deal older than Cassie, the hair is dyed.\nCassie's hair is auburn, right? That's technically a brunette. The text\ndoesn't say \"dark brown hair\" or \"black hair\". Auburn is between brunette\nand red hair as strawberry-blonde is between blonde and red hair. If a\nstrawberry blonde were referred to as \"blonde\", would you say \"that's\ntotally different\"?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah, but why should we assume that she's much older? If we can accept\nCassie's musing that Cassie is much older, despite her chronological\nage, then why couldn't we think Pavlatos is really young despite\nappearing old? If we can accept a premature aging (of hair), is a\ndelayed aging (of hair) any stranger?\n\nIt is as much a staple of Wolfe characters to be badly deluded as to\nsomeone's real status as it is for them to have deep insights, after\nall." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And of course we aren't told of Cassie's reaction to the photos, only her\nreaction to seeing herself in the mirror before she had an opportunity to\nlook at the photos. The photos might well include ones of her in a\nrestaurant with Gideon Chase and actor headshots. If Cassie is one of a\nseries of clones then they might be photos of lots of scenes she knows\nnothing about, however contemporaneous with her time.\n\nComing off the island, Cassie is haggard. Looking years older. So the mirror\nis all the confirmation she needs. I think the mirrors are intended as a\nmetaphor as much as a plot element." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not saying there anything *proven* here. I'm just befuddled that you\nthink the idea of Pavlatos = Cassie can be dispensed with. And, personally,\nbased on the Sharon Bench conversation and the mirrors in the stateroom, I'd\nbe surprised if P==C or C=P (that is, \"eventually becomes\") is not part of\nthis stew." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "P==C or C=P require us to make a number of assumptions and\nworkarounds, and there has yet to be any good hint that we should\nthink it. Margaret=Cassie is much more compelling." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gwern:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It is. Remember the passage about the 'awed' Barclays manager who\ninforms her she is now the wealthiest woman 'in the state'?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, then, that's a pretty sweet stake to build a fortune on. Anyway, we\nknow she's wealthy but we really don't know *how* wealthy. She's got a\nyacht. That hardly requires that she be Warren Buffet." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Are we disbelieving Cassie now when she describes Pavlatos as\n'mistress of a thousand millions'? And Cassie blew the bracelet on the\nhopper as well. (Used vehicles usually fetch far less than their\noriginal price.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't *know* how he intended to make her wealthy. $100K is not what he\npromised her. It's the minimum payment she demanded. He had something else\nin mind or else, I think, he would have stated a precise amount in the first\nplace. Assuming he knows that Pavlatos is Cassie, then he could certainly\npromise that she would become wealthy due to their gambit. Otherwise, I\ndon't know." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That might just be Chase's personality. He wants 50 million from the\npigs, no less, no more. He has a reputation for satisfying his\ncustomers. And his doppelganger (Reis) says again and again that Reis\nalways keeps his word and delivers on his contracts.\n\nIt's not necessarily his problem if Cassie doesn't know how to value\nher services and the danger premium. It's just business, ma'am." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes. This is a Wolfe novel. Doesn't the fact that he lays it all out in the\n1st or 2nd chapter make you a teensy suspicious? He promised to make her a\nstar, which he does although she never becomes famous (so far as we know).\nSo the one point (we think) we understand, he means something categorically\ndifferent from what Cassie thinks he means. He promises to make her wealthy\nalthough he never explains how his plan will accomplish that unless having\nher marry Reis was his plot from the beginning. There's more going on here.\n\nJ." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sometimes a mountain is just a mountain!" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern" } ] } ] }