Subject: (urth) An Evil Guest: tone, and clones

From: Gwern Branwen <gwern0 at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 04 Jan 2010 06:32:10 +0000

So I've finally read it, and it was very interesting. The depth, if it
is there (I'm not yet convinced), is much better hidden than in
_Peace_ or _Fifth Head of Cerberus_ where half the time one is
wondering what's the real story because the surface story is too dull
to be worth writing.

One of the things that bothers me the most is Bill Reis's death.

We get several lines about him flickering in and out of visibility,
and it seems to me that he almost chose the ceremony - how could Reis
be caught by the muscle-bound natives he equipped when the USG
couldn't? The latter had much better equipment and presumably also
knew of his optickal skillz (from Gideon Chase if nothing else). And
the bat-men didn't interfere until *after*. They were able to take
Cassie away while having apparently no problems with the groundlings.
Cassie shooting Kanoa would disrupt things, yes, but altogether?

And then there are the occasional mentions of cloning. Something I
don't think I've seen anyone mention is that maybe Wolfe is pulling an
_Endymion_ or Young's "The Dandelion Girl": perhaps Reis slips out of
the execution, and now supposed to be dead, travels to Woldercon with
Chase, returning when he is old and gray back through time to the
execution. Because he's flickering in and out, no one would notice the
sudden aging of Reis, and he could still live with Cassie.

Or perhaps he isn't executed at all - we are only told of the sound of
breaking bone, and never that anyone actually sees his corpse or that
his death accomplishes anything. (We don't even know that Reis died
and calmed the storm - Reis was not the only 'king' to die that night,
or even that minute.) If Gideon Chase can simply lose a leg, Reis can
have his collarbone or arm smashed. I heard that a smashed skull makes
a different, squishier, sound than a bone breaking. A similar escape
would then ensue with the bat-men (an explanation why they couldn't
carry Cassie all the way - Reis is heavy), and thence with Chase to
Woldercon.

But why would he go to Woldercon, then? His fortune is largely
untouched since it's globally dispersed, presumably. Fear of Cthulhu
might explain it: his gambit with the Navy may have failed and Cthulhu
or the cultists have a good idea of who is responsible. Reis does say
that fear of depth-charges is what prevented Cthulhu from moving
against him, so if the depth-charges are employed and are inutile, the
fear is dispelled. Further, we wouldn't expect Reis to give up -
Cthulhu is evil and needs to be fought - and Woldercon is an excellent
place to look for eldritch allies and learn the other 2 arts. But why
not communicate with Cassie at all? This might be the real meaning of
Chase's message.

Or perhaps a Reis does die in the ceremony, but there is no
time-shifting: it's just a clone swapped in. The dummy dies, and the
real one escapes. Flesh is flesh to hulking warriors.

That there are so many explanations, each equally bad and consistent,
bothers me a lot.

But enough about clones!

Another thing that bothered me was the tone. I noticed it throughout,
but 2 example really struck me well enough that I remember them for
this email.

The first was the Japanese computer speaking in the classic racial 'me
rikey very much' pattern. There's really no excuse for this
in-universe, set in the far future where presumably the Japanese have
for centuries been a 1st-World industrialized technology powerhouse
and have been for centuries successfully localizing their Mario games
and whatnot for gaijin markets.

I saw an earlier poster comment that Wolfe is just copying his source
material, but with some of it, he couldn't be. What pulp fiction ever
postulated Japanese computers with voice synthesis which speak in turn
of the century Charlie Chan tones?

The second example has even less excuse. While discussing the Squid
cultists, one character speaks of California and casually drops in
among his listing of pagans, Satanists, and other objectionable
religious riff-raff -- Buddhism. Leaving aside my personal offense (I
have the utmost respect for Buddhist theology & philosophy), this
doesn't even make sense as '20s-'40s material. California wasn't known
for Buddhism that early on. Western occultism was there, yes, as well
as some Hinduism related stuff, but all the significant Buddhist
influence was post-WWII - things like _Zen in the Art of Archery_
postdate the '40s, and it was the '60s that saw most of the US
monasteries and institutions get started with the Beat Generation.
What pulp fiction distinguished one fetishistic Eastern religion
espoused by the Yellow Peril from another religion that Wolfe should
single out Buddhism and not Hinduism?

To me, that just looks like bashing. It's as incongruous and unfair
from my perspective as if Wolfe had instead included Calvinism in the
listing. Worse, actually, because I reasonably assume Wolfe knows a
fair bit about Calvinism, but offhand, I can't remember anything in
_Shadows of the New Sun_ (and a quick search of the OCR shows naught)
or anything in any of my files even touching on Buddhism. I expect
more of him than that.

-- 
gwern

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 04 Jan 2010 09:16:32 +0000

> That there are so many explanations, each equally bad and
> consistent, bothers me a lot. But enough about clones!

Or time travel or both.

At Dragon*Con, Wolfe said,
"Cassie loved Bill Reis and at the end of the novel she goes to Woldercon to 
look for him."

After a re-read, I'm convinced that Pavlatos is Casey years later. Sharon 
Bench described the boy Chase healed and his mother as "a little piece of a 
man she loved and lost." It is entirely reasonable to conclude, based on 
that, that Rian is the result of Casey's trip to Woldercon, and the meaning 
of Wolfe's summation. I'm skeptical, however, about that last part. Rian 
could be Chase's son and the Bench's reference could to the "man" could 
refer to him. But this is a Wolfe novel, so they are probably the same guy 
somehow, right? But that's impossible. It is impossible, right? Anyway, all 
this suggests that Bench knows all about Pavlatos and that is why she 
doesn't want Casey to approach her with the information given her.

And then there's glamours, shape-changing, and inscrutable, contrary 
agendas...but enough about Gideon Chase.

But, yeah, the death of Reis is frustrating. As is Gideon's occultation 
after Cassie goes to the island. As is, to a lesser extent, Margaret's exit 
from the story. The whole execution scene stinks. I refute the possibility 
that it as it appears, but I can't really explain what is going on instead. 
This is common with Wolfe, no? But I don't think even 'The Book of the Short 
Sun' has a world that seems so inviting and interesting, yet presented so 
incomprehensibly.  I'd read it again to try to connect more dots if I 
believed it would be fruitful, but I don't. Not without more stories based 
in this world.

J.

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Mon, 04 Jan 2010 09:37:28 +0000

There may very well be more stories forthcoming. I agree that there is
just too little information for a Wolfe story: too many possible
explanations. A Wolfe story should narrow down more.

There was one already, in the same World. AEG even referred to it. Perhaps
there will be more. I bet there will be.

.

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---

From: Gwern Branwen <gwern0 at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 04 Jan 2010 13:52:38 +0000

On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 4:16 AM, James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com> wrote:
> of Wolfe's summation.
...

I'll take it by 'Casey' you mean 'Cassie'. I had the same thought too
(not sure whether I glanced over some Urth emails that primed me to
it), but I ultimately rejected it.

Why? Because Cassie describes Pavlatos as a faded 'beauty', saying she
has dull brunette hair, yes? So the hair and thinness fit. But
Pavlatos is an old woman when Cassie meets her. How does Cassie know
she 'was' a beauty? Because of the many portraits of her in Pavlatos's
cabin.

Now, if Pavlatos == future Cassie, then those pictures would have to
be of star-powered Cassie. Surely faded Cassie could still remember
what she looked like? Even a little piece like 'flaming red hair'
would trigger recognition, much less the whole enchilada.

Yes, star-powered Cassie doesn't look much like her previous self, but
Cassie has still seen and recognized previously a picture of her
star-powered self. So:
1. if the portraits are of her old not-so-starry self, she would
recognize them instantly
2. if they are of her old starry self, she would take some more time
to recognize them but certainly not weeks
3. if they were of her present self, she'd definitely have recognized
them (as upset about and focused upon her faded looks as she is)
4. if they were of future Madam Pavlatos, Cassie would not have
described them as being of a beauty.

Thus, I conclude Pavlatos /= Cassie.

We could try to get around this. Perhaps Cassie is simply inferring
that 'Madam Pavlatos is so vain, and has such fine clothes and makeup,
and carries herself in such a way, and has high cheekbones, and in our
unmentioned conversations claims to have been a beauty, so I will
assume she was a beauty.' But there are other problems with Pavlatos
== Cassie.

Pavlatos is really rich - far richer than Cassie's bracelet could have
made her. Rich on a Reis or Chase scale, at the very least. But how
would future Cassie have gotten such a fortune? Cassie may have been
Reis's 'common law' wife, but she wisely makes no effort to contact
Rian Reis or claim any inheritance, so her fortune could not have
stemmed from Reis's in the present, and if she goes to Woldercon,
somehow finds Bill Reis there, legally and incontrovertibly marries
him, the Earth inheritance would still have passed to Rian.

We could get around this too - the inheritance was undone, Rian
secretly set aside a fraction for her return, Cassie-Pavlatos learned
alchemy on Woldercon and made her fortune thusly, etc. But like the
execution theories and the 'beauty' issue, the explanations are ad hoc
and unsupported by anything I can remember.

-- 
gwern

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 04 Jan 2010 15:04:41 +0000

> to recognize them but certainly not weeks

I think I'm missing something.
Cassie Casey takes 1 and a half steps into the stateroom and sees herself in 
a mirror (presumably) even before she sees the pictures of Pavlatos. 
Assuming Cassie = Pavlatos why would she need the portraits at all? She 
looks at Pavlatos and herself in the mirrored walls of the yacht and 
realizes instantly that they are the same person. And then she breaks down 
into tears.

> made her.

Well, maybe. Maybe not. Chase *did* promise to make Cassie wealthy out of 
their gambit. He didn't just promise her a major "score". He promised her 
wealth. Perhaps the bracelet is worth a great deal....ala the Hope diamond. 
For the sake of argument, lets assume it isn't. Now we're moving corners 
Wolfe (once again) did not delineate for whatever reason. Exactly how Chase 
could have promised her "wealth" is still unresolved.
Perhaps it is simply that Cassie is wealthy because Pavlatos is wealthy. 
Palvatos has already become wealthy and knows how it is to be done. She 
stakes Cassie with a certain amount of money and sends her to Woldercon with 
instructions telling what to do to build their empire. Heck, it could be 
simpler than that. She could just send her with half the money or more into 
the past.
Ergo, Chase can promise Cassie wealth because she will "inherit" it, after 
she pays a debt Pavlatos owes him by doing this little service.

----------

As long as we are pointing out the endless plots that might be plugged into 
Wolfe's crazy-quilt story, I want to put another log on the fire. Why 
Cassie? Why did Chase pick her? Because he saw her on stage? The clone 
theories are based on a trivial reference to cloning at the end of the book. 
We assume this is referring to Ries because there seems to be more than one 
and then there's Rian. Fair enough. But the cloning reference was to Cassie 
herself. It is entirely possible that Cassie is a clone of Pavlatos. And 
more infuriating, there is nothing to prevent this from being combined with 
the Time travel theory I posted above (if Pavlatos is presumed old enough). 
Pavlatos could have created a clone (Cassie) who she sends back into the 
past to become herself.

J.

---

From: Gwern Branwen <gwern0 at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 04 Jan 2010 15:23:53 +0000

> realizes instantly that they are the same person. And then she breaks down

Re-reading the passage, it mentions *photographs* of Pavlatos. Going
by the same logic, this is even more damning. Portraits are very
easily faked or altered, but photos take effort to modify.

And I don't think she would look at the mirrors and realize "I'm
seeing twins, so that means...", since she describes herself as 'a
wasted face, sunburned and deeply lined, surmounted by dirty, graying
hair. A bent and barefoot old woman dressed in rags, with arms and
legs like sticks."

The thin and old part match Pavlatos, the rags can be replaced, the
wasted face repaired by cosmetics, her fattened out to 'rake-thin'
(however that compares to her starved condition) - but the hair
doesn't match at all, unless we're going to dismiss the photos,
mirrors, fortune, and also postulate hair dye or a wig.

> wealth. Perhaps the bracelet is worth a great deal....ala the Hope diamond.

It is. Remember the passage about the 'awed' Barclays manager who
informs her she is now the wealthiest woman 'in the state'? And Reis
said it was expensive, even for him. But unless the state is
Washington or New York or Texas, wealthiest person in the state may
not place Cassie up at Pavalatos's level ('mistress of a thousand
millions'), and certainly not wealthiest woman. Women tend to be
underrepresented in the ranks of billionaires.

> could have promised her "wealth" is still unresolved.

I'm not sure there's a problem here. Chase promised her a cool 100k.
He delivered on 20k of that, leaving 80k (unless I missed some
payments). 80k is nowhere near enough, and even if she had asked for a
more reasonable payment like Chase's original demand of 50 million,
still not Pavlatos-level. Or are you thinking that since Chase was in
love with her as well, he would give her everything he had (which as a
Woldercon alchemist presumably would be a lot)?

> Cassie? Why did Chase pick her? Because he saw her on stage?

Aren't we told by him that's why? He's a local who likes theater (as a
wizard, no surprise), and he says he saw occasional flashes of
greatness buried in Cassie.
If we accept what he says about his starrifying process only working
with what is already in the person, it could be that Cassie was the
only poor person with star-potential he knew, and her position as
actress was perfect for exploiting her newfound starpower.

> The clone

A fun riff off of _Fifth Head_!

-- 
gwern

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 04 Jan 2010 16:24:41 +0000

> hair. A bent and barefoot old woman dressed in rags, with arms and

It is a staple of Wolfe characters that they see through the superficial to 
the truth.

Gwern:
> The thin and old part match Pavlatos

check.

Gwern:
>, the rags can be replaced, the wasted face repaired by cosmetics, her 
>fattened out to 'rake-thin'
> (however that compares to her starved condition)

check, check, check

Gwern:
> - but the hair
> doesn't match at all, unless we're going to dismiss the
>photos, mirrors, fortune, and also postulate hair dye or a wig.

I don't see how these are impediments at all.
Well, assuming she's a good deal older than Cassie, the hair is dyed. 
Cassie's hair is auburn, right? That's technically a brunette. The text 
doesn't say "dark brown hair" or "black hair". Auburn is between brunette 
and red hair as strawberry-blonde is between blonde and red hair. If a 
strawberry blonde were referred to as "blonde", would you say "that's 
totally different"?

And of course we aren't told of Cassie's reaction to the photos, only her 
reaction to seeing herself in the mirror before she had an opportunity to 
look at the photos. The photos might well include ones of her in a 
restaurant with Gideon Chase and actor headshots. If Cassie is one of a 
series of clones then they might be photos of lots of scenes she knows 
nothing about, however contemporaneous with her time.

Coming off the island, Cassie is haggard. Looking years older. So the mirror 
is all the confirmation she needs. I think the mirrors are intended as a 
metaphor as much as a plot element.

I'm not saying there anything *proven* here. I'm just befuddled that you 
think the idea of Pavlatos = Cassie can be dispensed with. And, personally, 
based on the Sharon Bench conversation and the mirrors in the stateroom, I'd 
be surprised if P==C or C=P (that is, "eventually becomes") is not part of 
this stew.

Me:
>>  Perhaps the bracelet is worth a great deal
>>....ala the Hope diamond.

Gwern:
> informs her she is now the wealthiest woman 'in the state'?

Well, then, that's a pretty sweet stake to build a fortune on. Anyway, we 
know she's wealthy but we really don't know *how* wealthy. She's got a 
yacht. That hardly requires that she be Warren Buffet.

Gwern:
>[snip]Or are you thinking that since Chase was in

I don't *know* how he intended to make her wealthy. $100K is not what he 
promised her. It's the minimum payment she demanded. He had something else 
in mind or else, I think, he would have stated a precise amount in the first 
place. Assuming he knows that Pavlatos is Cassie, then he could certainly 
promise that she would become wealthy due to their gambit. Otherwise, I 
don't know.

Gwern:
> Aren't we told by him that's why?

Yes. This is a Wolfe novel. Doesn't the fact that he lays it all out in the 
1st or 2nd chapter make you a teensy suspicious? He promised to make her a 
star, which he does although she never becomes famous (so far as we know). 
So the one point (we think) we understand, he means something categorically 
different from what Cassie thinks he means. He promises to make her wealthy 
although he never explains how his plan will accomplish that unless having 
her marry Reis was his plot from the beginning. There's more going on here.

J.

---

From: Gwern Branwen <gwern0 at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 04 Jan 2010 20:52:11 +0000

On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 11:24 AM, James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com> wrote:
...
> strawberry blonde were referred to as "blonde", would you say "that's

Ah, but why should we assume that she's much older? If we can accept
Cassie's musing that Cassie is much older, despite her chronological
age, then why couldn't we think Pavlatos is really young despite
appearing old? If we can accept a premature aging (of hair), is a
delayed aging (of hair) any stranger?

It is as much a staple of Wolfe characters to be badly deluded as to
someone's real status as it is for them to have deep insights, after
all.

> be surprised if P==C or C=P (that is, "eventually becomes") is not part of

P==C or C=P require us to make a number of assumptions and
workarounds, and there has yet to be any good hint that we should
think it. Margaret=Cassie is much more compelling.

> yacht. That hardly requires that she be Warren Buffet.

Are we disbelieving Cassie now when she describes Pavlatos as
'mistress of a thousand millions'? And Cassie blew the bracelet on the
hopper as well. (Used vehicles usually fetch far less than their
original price.)

> promise that she would become wealthy due to their gambit. Otherwise, I

That might just be Chase's personality. He wants 50 million from the
pigs, no less, no more. He has a reputation for satisfying his
customers. And his doppelganger (Reis) says again and again that Reis
always keeps his word and delivers on his contracts.

It's not necessarily his problem if Cassie doesn't know how to value
her services and the danger premium. It's just business, ma'am.

> her marry Reis was his plot from the beginning. There's more going on here.

Sometimes a mountain is just a mountain!

-- 
gwern