{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5530", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5530, "subject": "An Evil Guest: gold hunting", "messages": 10, "voices": 3, "first": "2010-01-05T02:20:46+00:00", "last": "2010-01-08T19:22:40+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-01-05T02:20:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Evil Guest: gold hunting", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Another thing that bothers me about AEG is the initial premise. Why\ndoes the USG want to hunt down Reis? Gold, it's insinuated, is the\nreason.\n\nWhy is creating gold a problem? I suspect we are meant to simply\nassume it's counterfeiting and bad, no more questions needed.\n\nBut the federal government has many reasons to be glad about a cheap\nmethod of producing gold!\n\n- it massively blunts the danger of people switching to a gold-backed currency\n- induces a kind of 'gold inflation', with similar stimulant effects\nas people are forced to use their gold or lose value\n- helps out industry (gold has scads of uses)\n- is a major physics advance, and likely implies being able to create\narbitrary other radioisotopes (great for weapons, and medicine in\ngeneral)\n- properly controlled, is a major weapon against any country or entity\nholding large reserves of gold\nand so on.\n\nIn fact, I'm having a hard time thinking why the government would\ndislike it at all.\n\n- because Reis can make gold, you dummy\n\nAnd the President can print as much money as he wants. You can spend\ngreenbacks at your local Baskin-Robbins too.\n\n- then maybe the President wants a personal fortune\n\nEx-presidents name their salaries and speaking fees. The Clintons left\nthe White House like $10 million in debt; but they cleared that up\nawfully quick, and are now shall we say, well-to-do. (Of course, other\npresidents already had fortunes upon election.)\n\n- they are being good doobies and protecting the world from radioactive gold!\n\nMakes no sense. Reis or Chase (I forget which) says that the level is\nso low it would have taken months to kill Cassie, and exposures of\nminutes to the bracelet - pounds of radioactive gold - isn't a big\ndeal. Even if the radiation level were extremely high, so what? When\nwas the last time you handed over a groaning suitcase with thousands\nof Benjamins in it when you wanted to buy a car or house?\n\nThe reserve banks, among other institutions, hold hundreds and\nthousands of tons of nonradioactive gold. Synthesize an equivalent\namount of radioactive gold, and swap it all. Now you have hundreds and\nthousands of tons of perfectly good gold. Or you could smelt it all\ntogether, cutting the radiation level of each pound in half; alloy it\nfor 20 karat gold and the level goes down another 16% or whatever.\n\nAnd so on.\n\n------\n\nSo what's the *real* reason for hunting Reis and his gold?\n\nHere's another question: why do they consider Reis so very very evil?\nThe worst thing we've heard of him doing or seen him done is the\nbattles between the mercenaries and the Squid cultists for the\nislands. It would be a tad hypocritical for an American president and\nhis Rove to be all 'most EEEVVILLL man in the world!' And why do they\nnot say who the other 2 evil men are, apparently because of Gideon\nChase's presence?\n\nAnother point: Reis says Cthulhu fears *his* mercenaries'\ndepth-bombing - not any government's depth-bombing. If you were an\nextremely wealthy, well-connected American businessman fighting an\nextraterrestrial menace, and your best weapon is sophisticated naval\nexplosives, isn't it the most natural thing in the world to use the\nUnited States Navy as your *first* resort? Especially if you're High\nKing and can sign any treaty you wish. Why does Reis need to resort to\nrather intricate shenanigans to get the USN to depth-bomb Cthulhu\nwithout realizing whom it is fighting? (Presumably once the charges\nstarting rolling and the storm called, the engagement will sustain\nitself.)\n\nWhy, for that matter, is the USN out in that kind of strength? You\ndon't send carrier groups or even a cruiser or destroyer out on\nlengthy wild-goose chases - and Reis implies the search flights have\nbeen going on for a long time. Reconnaissance helicopters or\nsubmersibles don't carry many depth-charges, last I heard, nor would\nthey have authorization to use them.\n\nAnother point: keep in mind that even if they found Reis's postulated\nmaster-stash, they can't expect more than millions or low billions\nfrom it, else they would've found it long ago from leakage if nothing\nelse. So why do they keep looking? Military operations are\n*expensive*. And it's not like the federal government needs to grab\nall the gold it can find: it has a multi-trillion dollar budget. If\nyou want a spare billion or 3, just take it from the black budget.\n\n---\n\nWhat are we to make of all these odd points - the pointless\npersecution of Reis, the peculiarly persistent search of the islands\nin massive military strength, and the rest?\n\nHere's my take. The USN is there in force because someone in command\n*expected* to find Cthulhu or something comparable. That's why they\ncould depth-charge at all, and so quickly.\n\nThey expected to find Cthulhu by finding Reis's gold not because they\nthought Cthulhu was manufacturing it - they knew Reis was\nmanufacturing it - but they thought Reis was storing it there. And\nthey thought Reis could store it there because he had an arrangement\nwith Cthulhu: he was a cultist.\n\nNot just any cultist either. Besides his socioeconomic status, he was\nalso the high king of the islands directly ruled by Cthulhu. Pretty\nreasonable to characterize him as one of Cthulhu's most powerful,\nhonored, and thus presumably loyal, servitors.\n\nGiven all that, the President's characterization is not hyperbole, nor\nis the focus on gold inexplicable - it's the spoor that they will hunt\nback. Even the reticence to name the other 2 evil men becomes clearer:\nChase has worked for Reis, advocates suspiciously Cthulhu-amenable\nethics, is in a Squiddy-favored position in academia (remember the\nboasts of their power extending through world governments and\ninstitutions), and is eldritch in general (even omitting possible\ncontamination at Miskatonic). Perhaps Chase is #2 on the list! Using\nhim against Reis would be delicious irony, and explains the government\nreaction to Chase's refusal/escape.\n\nFurther, Reis playing a dangerous game in Cthulhu's sphere of\ninfluence - appearing but not really being his - explains how Reis\ncould be trapped at the end. If the true loyalties of all the\nislanders & warriors came as a surprise, that would be one heck of a\nscrewup by Reis! (The original invasion now becomes infighting among\nCthulhu cultists for status.)\n\nBut who is #3? That's still a mystery to me. It could be King Kanoa.\nHe is immediately subordinate to King Reis, and would make a natural\nthird." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern" } ] }, { "message_id": "<097A5593F96540D68E61BBB21EC4CD16@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-01-05T18:17:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Evil Guest: gold hunting", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Another thing that bothers me about AEG is the initial premise. Why\ndoes the USG want to hunt down Reis? Gold, it's insinuated, is the\nreason.\nWhy is creating gold a problem? I suspect we are meant to simply\nassume it's counterfeiting and bad, no more questions needed." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought the point was that the US government wanted his *method* of \nproducing gold. For all the reasons you named, it would be a valuable \ntechnology.\nBut you bring up the possibility that the US government is waging war \nagainst the Storm King rather than working within the status quo." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Here's another question: why do they consider Reis so very very evil?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Now that's a good question. Hearing Wolfe talk about Ries you can tell he's \nvery please with him, and pleased with him *as a villain*. He said that a \nreally good villain needs to be almost a hero but falls short. I'm sure \nWolfe knows more about Ries' agenda than is in the text but I don't. From \nwhat I read, I can't see too much either heroic or villainous about him. He \njust wants to be the next Storm King. But Earth already has a Storm King and \nhas for a million years, so I don't see that it is that *bad* or good. Just \nmore of the same.\n\nI'm no more sure of Wolfe's feelings about the characters in this story than \nI am of Gideon Chase's." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And why do they\nnot say who the other 2 evil men are, apparently because of Gideon\nChase's presence?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Because they are Reis too, or so I am convinced." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why does Reis need to resort to\nrather intricate shenanigans to get the USN to depth-bomb Cthulhu\nwithout realizing whom it is fighting?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Based on \"The Tree Is My Hat\", I think the US government *must* know that \nthe Storm King is there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why, for that matter, is the USN out in that kind of strength? You\ndon't send carrier groups or even a cruiser or destroyer out on\nlengthy wild-goose chases - and Reis implies the search flights have\nbeen going on for a long time. Reconnaissance helicopters or\nsubmersibles don't carry many depth-charges, last I heard, nor would\nthey have authorization to use them.\n\nAnother point: keep in mind that even if they found Reis's postulated\nmaster-stash, they can't expect more than millions or low billions\nfrom it," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, I'm not sure about this one. Unless they think he has trillions in \ngold." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What are we to make of all these odd points - the pointless\npersecution of Reis, the peculiarly persistent search of the islands\nin massive military strength, and the rest?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The relationship between the US government and the Storm King has always \nbeen perplexing. It is in The Tree Is My Hat as well." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "They expected to find Cthulhu by finding Reis's gold not because they\nthought Cthulhu was manufacturing it - they knew Reis was\nmanufacturing it - but they thought Reis was storing it there. And\nthey thought Reis could store it there because he had an arrangement\nwith Cthulhu: he was a cultist." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In The Tree Is My Hat the protagonist is a kind of ambassador or hostage \nsent by the US government. They know the Storm King is there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps Chase is #2 on the list! Using\nhim against Reis would be delicious irony, and explains the government\nreaction to Chase's refusal/escape." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought of that, but if Chase is in league with Ries, why does he need the \npictures of him? He suspects the photos are bugged but rather than just \nthrow them away, he makes copies first." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But who is #3? That's still a mystery to me. It could be King Kanoa.\nHe is immediately subordinate to King Reis, and would make a natural\nthird." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I believe that *somehow* King Kanoa is one of the Rieses. I can't prove it \nthough.\nThere is an extra Reis running around and it is fixating that he goes by two \nidentities and Cassie treats those identities almost separately.\nThis reminds me of Garsegc/Setr in The Wizard Knight.\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-01-06T01:00:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Evil Guest: gold hunting", "in_reply_to": "<097A5593F96540D68E61BBB21EC4CD16@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 1:17 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nI thought the point was that the US government wanted his *method* of\nproducing gold. For all the reasons you named, it would be a valuable\ntechnology." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought that too, but that suggests a different sequence, in which\nthe president offers to legalize it and split the proceeds with Reis.\nGiven all the uses of gold transmutation and general atomic\ntransmutation, even if Reis got 1% of the profits, he still would be\nfantastically more wealthy than he is synthesizing a small brick every\nmonth or two for the occasional order.\n\nKanoa says that no more than 5 or 7 bricks are together at any time.\nWe are not talking about an operation on a large-scale here. It almost\nsounds as if Reis personally oversees each brick. I can't come up with\nany figures of public gold sales, profit sharing, and Reis's current\ngold sales which are both plausible and which make Reis better off\nkeeping the secret. Public sale involves such gargantuan figures.\n\nThe only way it works is if the deal offers Reis nothing, and we don't\nget that kind of extortionate tyrannical feel from the president. And\nit still doesn't explain the evil personal nature of their war on\nReis." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Here's another question: why do they consider Reis so very very evil?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Now that's a good question. Hearing Wolfe talk about Ries you can tell he's\nvery please with him, and pleased with him *as a villain*. He said that a\nreally good villain needs to be almost a hero but falls short. I'm sure\nWolfe knows more about Ries' agenda than is in the text but I don't. From\nwhat I read, I can't see too much either heroic or villainous about him. He\njust wants to be the next Storm King. But Earth already has a Storm King and\nhas for a million years, so I don't see that it is that *bad* or good. Just\nmore of the same." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Reis is a far superior Storm King.\n\nHe's human, for one." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why does Reis need to resort to\nrather intricate shenanigans to get the USN to depth-bomb Cthulhu\nwithout realizing whom it is fighting?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One of my previous theories was the the President & John were\nSquiddies and that they considered Reis evil because he opposed\nCthulhu. However, those 2 do not fit the cultist psychological profile\nand though it explained why Reis had to trick the Navy into it, it\ncouldn't explain why the Navy was hunting Reis's gold or why it had\nauthorization to depth-bomb at all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Based on \"The Tree Is My Hat\", I think the US government *must* know that\nthe Storm King is there." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Fortunately for me, there's a copy of that story online in 2 Google\nBooks and http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Innocents-Aboard/Gene-Wolfe/e/9780765307903#CHP\n\nHaving read it and a bit of the list discussion, even assuming that it\nis the same exact universe and not an early draft as it were or a\nrelation like BOTNS and \"A Solar Labyrinth\", I'm not sure we can infer\nthat.\n\nBaden is the member of an agency, but aside from calling it 'the\nAgency', we aren't given any reason to identify it with the\nintelligence community. Baden has no particular fighting or computer\nor jungle expertise, or evinces any kind of special skills one might\nexpect of an overseas operative. Further, his previous assignment was\nUganda, which back then was a humanitarian interest - not a national\nsecurity concern in the least. And note his equipment:\n\"31 Jan. Setting up my new Mac. Who would think this place would have\nphones? But there are wires to Kololahi, and a dish. I can chat with\npeople all over the world, for which the agency pays. (Talk about\nsoft!) Nothing like this in Africa. Just the radio, and good luck with\nthat.\"\n\nIf he were CIA, would he just have a crappy radio? If he were using\nmilspec government equipment, why can he talk all around the world? If\nthe military-industrial establishment were probing the islands, why\nzero mention of reports back? Why a female boss, and one so concerned\nshe'll squeeze his hand?\n\nIt all makes sense if it were a government charity thingy, though.\n\n(Also note the utter lack of Squiddies in \"The Tree is my Hat\".\nCthulhu should be perfectly active at this point; it feels like the\n1990s, after all, and so Reis still hasn't battled the cultists. In\nAEG, even when Hanga was puissant, there were still plenty of cultists\naround, so why would it be any different in the '90s?)\n\nEven if Baden reported to an intelligence agency, and they believed\nhim completely (yeah right), that still wouldn't point to Cthulhu in\nthe sea, but towards a Mountains of Madness scenario, or just Hanga\nhimself." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Another point: keep in mind that even if they found Reis's postulated\nmaster-stash, they can't expect more than millions or low billions\nfrom it," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yeah, I'm not sure about this one. Unless they think he has trillions in\ngold." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And if they want his process, why bother hunting small amounts of\ngold? They know he isn't going to be there in the stash, after all,\nsince he's such a globe-trotter." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "They expected to find Cthulhu by finding Reis's gold not because they\nthought Cthulhu was manufacturing it - they knew Reis was\nmanufacturing it - but they thought Reis was storing it there. And\nthey thought Reis could store it there because he had an arrangement\nwith Cthulhu: he was a cultist." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In The Tree Is My Hat the protagonist is a kind of ambassador or hostage\nsent by the US government. They know the Storm King is there." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How did you get that?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Perhaps Chase is #2 on the list! Using\nhim against Reis would be delicious irony, and explains the government\nreaction to Chase's refusal/escape." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I thought of that, but if Chase is in league with Ries, why does he need the\npictures of him? He suspects the photos are bugged but rather than just\nthrow them away, he makes copies first." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, remember, I suggested they are rivals in the cult. Cults often\nrun on a cellular structure. Chase may know full well of Reis but\nnever have met him or seen photos of him. (Many billionaires are\nextremely reclusive. Have you ever seen any photos of the 6 or 7\nWaltons who control >$80 billion?) So the photos would be valuable.\n\nNote also that Chase supposedly worked for Reis once, which is a\nrelationship one would expect to obviate the need for photos to a\ndegree much more than merely being in the same cult." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I believe that *somehow* King Kanoa is one of the Rieses. I can't prove it\nthough.\nThere is an extra Reis running around and it is fixating that he goes by two\nidentities and Cassie treats those identities almost separately.\nThis reminds me of Garsegc/Setr in The Wizard Knight.\n\nJ." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mm. How do you explain the mass discrepancy? We're told King Kanoa is\nabsolutely massive; Reis is big & powerful, but not that much." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-01-06T02:46:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Evil Guest: gold hunting", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Fortunately for me, there's a copy of [The Tree Is My Hat] online in 2 \nGoogle\nBooks and \nhttp://search.barnesandnoble.com/Innocents-Aboard/Gene-Wolfe/e/9780765307903#CHP\nHaving read it and a bit of the list discussion, even assuming that it\nis the same exact universe and not an early draft as it were or a\nrelation like BOTNS and \"A Solar Labyrinth\", I'm not sure we can infer\nthat." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "When I spoke with Gene about it in Atlanta, he confirmed that it is the same \nisland.\n\nIncidentally, I strongly recommend \"Innocents Aboard\" (in which TTIMH is \ncollected) . It is probably my favorite collection of short stories by \nWolfe. What is interesting about it, is that the stories aren't really SF \nper se. Or they just barely are. IA and Strange Travellers are companion \nvolumes in my mind (\"Counting Cats in Zanzibar\" is a story I routinely offer \nas an introduction to Wolfe) . Also, IA has the short story The Night Chough \nso that's two extra extra-textual references to Wolfe novels in one \ncollection." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Baden is the member of an agency, but aside from calling it 'the\nAgency', we aren't given any reason to identify it with the\nintelligence community. Baden has no particular fighting or computer\nor jungle expertise, or evinces any kind of special skills one might\nexpect of an overseas operative. Further, his previous assignment was\nUganda, which back then was a humanitarian interest - not a national\nsecurity concern in the least. And note his equipment:[snip]\nIf he were CIA, would he just have a crappy radio? If he were using\nmilspec government equipment, why can he talk all around the world? If\nthe military-industrial establishment were probing the islands, why\nzero mention of reports back? Why a female boss, and one so concerned\nshe'll squeeze his hand? It all makes sense if it were a government\ncharity thingy, though." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Baden's whole assignment is screwy for all the reasons you give and more. \nBut it no more works as a charity operation than anything else. He is given \nno mission to speak of at all. He's given no funds to disburse nor people to \nmanage. And no information beforehand about what he will experience there. \nAll he is told is that he must go there alone. We find out why that is \nwithin hours of his family arriving. But we don't know *why* anyone who \ncomes with Baden is automatically an offering to the aliens (and --it is \nclear-- that is Hanga's understanding). The only thing that seems likely is \nthat Baden is sent there because he is considered expendable: a broken tool. \nThat, and he's in no position to turn down the assignment. And not all CIA \nagents have 007 skills many of them are merely bureaucrats with a knack for \nlanguages and some prior experience abroad. It makes sense that The Agency \nis the CIA, but it is not necessary.\n\nI didn't say he was a *spy* for the government. He's sent there as a \ngovernment's representative of some sort at a post that is hardly a plum \noffering for anyone who understands its purpose. The government is posting \nhim there for reasons unstated but evidently important. The only official \nrole I know of that doesn't require the assignee to know anything or do \nanything is hostage or sacrifice. And he wasn't sacrificed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(Also note the utter lack of Squiddies in \"The Tree is my Hat\".\nCthulhu should be perfectly active at this point;" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, the only reason Cassie encounters Squiddies is because of her \nassociation with Reis (or Chase or the bat-people or because she's a 'star', \nwho knows?). Hanga is the only alien we know of who seeks human company for \npleasure." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Note also that Chase supposedly worked for Reis once, which is a\nrelationship one would expect to obviate the need for photos to a\ndegree much more than merely being in the same cult." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Do you mean about healing Rian? Isn't that assuming a bit? (We think) we \nknow that Chase worked for Pavlatos. But we don't know Ries had any \ninvolvement at all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I believe that *somehow* King Kanoa is one of the Rieses. I can't prove \nit\nthough.\nThere is an extra Reis running around and it is fixating that he goes by \ntwo\nidentities and Cassie treats those identities almost separately.\nThis reminds me of Garsegc/Setr in The Wizard Knight." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mm. How do you explain the mass discrepancy? We're told King Kanoa is\nabsolutely massive; Reis is big & powerful, but not that much." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe he's just fatter than Wally. Maybe it's a disguise combined with a \nglamour. Maybe he's pulling a Baldanders/Jolenta with plans to live in the \nStorm King's palace. Whether you explain it via cloning or temporal plotting \nor whatever, they are the same person (in a sense) but different people \ninhabiting different space...one whom Cassie loves and aids and the other \nwhom she loathes and undermines. The Garsegc/Setr parallel is key to \nunderstanding what I mean.\n\nThat cave scene is a classic Wolfean climax dutifully repeated in Peace, \nBoTNS, Long Sun, Soldier of the Mist, There Are Doors, and The Knight (I \nhaven't read Pirate Freedom yet). As such, the protagonist has to take up a \nhidden weapon in an enclosed space and kill or overthrow the antagonist with \nit in the cave. Wolfe has identified the antagonist as Ries. That is the \nwhole foundation of my belief that Kanoa is Ries. If you don't see the \nparallel, I don't expect you to see the necessity of Kanoa being Ries. Take \nit for what it is. Ignore it if you don't see the parallel. I certainly \ncan't prove it otherwise.\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<5ded66501001060333t11db7ee3u3cbbe278aa81ec23@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "nate jarvis", "address": "natejarv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-01-06T11:33:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Evil Guest: gold hunting", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "i had this thought while reading AEG (months ago) that reis was paving\nthe way for a woldercanian invasion of earth. basically, that the\nwoldercanians were \"mice\" who couldn't directly fight the storm king,\nbut for whatever reason humans could (maybe SK's vulnerable to\ntechnology but not to magic or magic-based technology), hence\nrequiring reis to get the USN to fight SK and making reis the evilest\nman on earth (as he's effectively selling out both the planet and the\nspecies). if the us president suspects chase is at least part wolder,\nhe'd have a motive to keep reis's motive (per above) a secret from\nchase and focus on the gold. the USN might have thought reis was\nstockpiling his gold with an alien other than SK, specifically an\nalien with designs on conquest.\n\nneedless to say i have nothing to back the above theory up.\n\nnate." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-01-06T13:39:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Evil Guest: gold hunting", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 9:46 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nWhen I spoke with Gene about it in Atlanta, he confirmed that it is the same\nisland." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "OK then." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Baden's whole assignment is screwy for all the reasons you give and more.\nBut it no more works as a charity operation than anything else. He is given\nno mission to speak of at all. He's given no funds to disburse nor people to\nmanage. And no information beforehand about what he will experience there.\nAll he is told is that he must go there alone. We find out why that is\nwithin hours of his family arriving. But we don't know *why* anyone who\ncomes with Baden is automatically an offering to the aliens (and --it is\nclear-- that is Hanga's understanding). The only thing that seems likely is\nthat Baden is sent there because he is considered expendable: a broken tool.\nThat, and he's in no position to turn down the assignment. And not all CIA\nagents have 007 skills many of them are merely bureaucrats with a knack for\nlanguages and some prior experience abroad. It makes sense that The Agency\nis the CIA, but it is not necessary." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But we're not given any feeling like 'go there, stay, and shut up'. We\nreally are given the feeling of a not-so-efficient aid agency\npensioning off a worker in a cheap island paradise until he finally\nkicks the bucket:\n\n\n \"It's a remote Pacific island chain.\" She cleared her throat and\nseemed to have swallowed a bone. \"It's not going to be like Africa,\nBad. You'll be on your own out there.\"\n Me: \"I thought you were going to fire me.\"\n P.D.: \"No, no! We wouldn't do that.\"\n \"Permanent sick leave.\"\n \"No, no, no! But, Bad.\" She leaned across her desk and for a minute\nI was afraid she was going to squeeze my hand. \"This will be rough.\nI'm not going to try to fool you.\"\n Hah!\n\nNote that Baden's room is essentially free, his board minimal, and he\notherwise isn't a drain on the agency; probably one or two hospital\nstays in the US would exceed the cost of sending and supporting Baden\nthere. Retirees go to tropical 3rd World countries for reasons beyond\nthe weather, y'know." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I didn't say he was a *spy* for the government. He's sent there as a\ngovernment's representative of some sort at a post that is hardly a plum\noffering for anyone who understands its purpose. The government is posting\nhim there for reasons unstated but evidently important. The only official\nrole I know of that doesn't require the assignee to know anything or do\nanything is hostage or sacrifice. And he wasn't sacrificed." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But hostage or sacrifice don't make sense to me. As you say, the\nlatter doesn't occur, and the 'sacrifice' of his family could be down\nto Hanga's xenophobia or protecting his blood-brother (nobody else\nseems to have remarked that Baden's wife has come apparently with the\nintention of lassoing him - perhaps due to getting pregnant - and\nbringing him back to civilization, and thus away from Hanga and the\nisland).\nAnd if hostage, hostage against what?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "(Also note the utter lack of Squiddies in \"The Tree is my Hat\".\nCthulhu should be perfectly active at this point;" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, the only reason Cassie encounters Squiddies is because of her\nassociation with Reis (or Chase or the bat-people or because she's a 'star',\nwho knows?). Hanga is the only alien we know of who seeks human company for\npleasure." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's true, but remember that Hanga grows in power. He is first a\nsmall dwarf. Only later is he a gigantic flying man-eating shark. And\nhe's a dwarf *before* the ceremony. And the chief's palace ceremony\nbinds him.\n\nIn all of this, the space is open for there to be Cthulhu: it could be\nCthulhu powering the chief (much like Kanoa is a cultist). While Hanga\nis weak, there could be hints of Cthulhu as the islanders' main\npropiative. When Rob is discussing the origins, he could throw in\nallusions to Cthulhu - why South America*, then?\n\nThe simplest explanation is that Cthulhu is never mentioned or hinted\nat because he isn't in this story's world; since AEG clearly tells us\nthat Cthulhu is there, has been there for millenia, and will be there\nfor a while (presumably), the simplest way to reconcile the 2 is to\nassume Wolfe is simply retconning The Tree Is My Hat into the later\nAEG universe. It's not unsurprising to me that a 1999 short story\nwould not have the same fully fleshed out universe\n\n* I've changed my mind; Rob's description of pyramids & human\nsacrifice is clearly an allusion to Mesoamerica. Antarctica only works\nif you insist on seeing The Tree Is My Hat in the Cthulhu mythos and\nthen because the Antarctic cities are the only possibility." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Note also that Chase supposedly worked for Reis once, which is a\nrelationship one would expect to obviate the need for photos to a\ndegree much more than merely being in the same cult." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Do you mean about healing Rian? Isn't that assuming a bit? (We think) we\nknow that Chase worked for Pavlatos. But we don't know Ries had any\ninvolvement at all." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "IIRC, doesn't Reis specifically say he hired Chase a few years ago and\never since Chase has been greedy and sought to extort more money out\nof him? I don't see any reason to disbelieve him. And if Chase\nexecuted a job for Reis, that's a good reason for Reis to want to make\nhim an ally, otherwise he would just be going on reputation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Whether you explain it via cloning or temporal plotting\nor whatever, they are the same person (in a sense) but different people\ninhabiting different space...one whom Cassie loves and aids and the other\nwhom she loathes and undermines. The Garsegc/Setr parallel is key to\nunderstanding what I mean.\n\nThat cave scene is a classic Wolfean climax dutifully repeated in Peace,\nBoTNS, Long Sun, Soldier of the Mist, There Are Doors, and The Knight (I\nhaven't read Pirate Freedom yet). As such, the protagonist has to take up a\nhidden weapon in an enclosed space and kill or overthrow the antagonist with\nit in the cave. Wolfe has identified the antagonist as Ries. That is the\nwhole foundation of my belief that Kanoa is Ries. If you don't see the\nparallel, I don't expect you to see the necessity of Kanoa being Ries. Take\nit for what it is. Ignore it if you don't see the parallel. I certainly\ncan't prove it otherwise.\n\nJ." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I never understood Wizard-Knight, so I didn't see that as much of a\nparallel. Cassie's pistol, silver-tipped though its bullets be, isn't\nmuch of a Terminus Est. And where's the sacrifice of Reis in Peace or\nTBOTNS? A lover killing the sacrificer of the loved doesn't match up\nAFAIK." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-01-06T16:27:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Evil Guest: gold hunting", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But we're not given any feeling like 'go there, stay, and shut up'. We\nreally are given the feeling of a not-so-efficient aid agency\npensioning off a worker in a cheap island paradise until he finally\nkicks the bucket:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Neither. Baden is given idea that he is being sent on a particularly \nunpleasant assignment. An assignment he would only take because the other \nchoice is firing. The tone of his boss while giving him the assignment is \npity. And I don't mean pity because he's an alcoholic or had a breakdown, \nwhatever it was. I'm mean pity because he's being given the assignment and \nshe knows he'll take it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Note that Baden's room is essentially free, his board minimal, and he\notherwise isn't a drain on the agency; probably one or two hospital\nstays in the US would exceed the cost of sending and supporting Baden\nthere. Retirees go to tropical 3rd World countries for reasons beyond\nthe weather, y'know." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But he's almost certainly not of retirement age, and even Baden thought the \nmost reasonable course for dealing with him was termination. Assigning him \nto the island means they still have to pay his salary. Even charity aid \nworkers don't live on adjusted per diem. They get full yearly salaries. \nProbably with a bonus for out-of-country service. The idea that an NGO would \nor could maroon an employee to a remote island to avoid medical expenses \nstrikes me itself as a plot for a speculative fiction story. So I would have \nexpected some exposition to justify it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But hostage or sacrifice don't make sense to me. As you say, the\nlatter doesn't occur, and the 'sacrifice' of his family could be down\nto Hanga's xenophobia or protecting his blood-brother (nobody else\nseems to have remarked that Baden's wife has come apparently with the\nintention of lassoing him - perhaps due to getting pregnant - and\nbringing him back to civilization, and thus away from Hanga and the\nisland)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He's told that he is to be on the island alone, and within a couple hours of \nhis family arriving on the island, Hanga singles out Baden's wife as a \nfuture meal. It's hard to ignore the coincidence.\n\nAnd Baden is hardly being lassoed by his wife. There really nothing in the \nstory to imply that Baden is a great catch. He doesn't see it that way. The \npicture we get from Baden is that his wife is a forgiving person who is \nstaying with him *in spite* of their history.\nAs you pointed out, Baden was told that he was to be stationed at the island \n*totally on his own*. If he's being retired, there's no point in that. It's \npresented to him as a tough, perhaps hazardous assignment. That's hardly a \nway to sell a plan to \"pension him off\". If the island was such a cheap \nalternative to paying medical expenses, why would he be the only one the \nAgency would station there? He can't be the only employee who has ever had \nchronic medical expenses. If The Agency had even pro forma duties there, why \nisn't Baden at least going through the motions of doing them, or mentioning \nthem.\n\nAnd why would his family want to take him back to civilization when that \nwould mean he would have to quit his job? That is, if the job benefits with \nthe Agency were so ideal." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And if hostage, hostage against what?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's the million dollar question. What exactly is the Agency getting out \nof Baden being there? What are the rules that require he be there alone on \nthe island? The Tree Is My Hat and An Evil Guest are both interesting \nintroductions to this world. I wish Wolfe had deigned to actually explain \nit." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The simplest explanation is that Cthulhu is never mentioned or hinted\nat because he isn't in [TTIMH]'s world [snip]\nto assume Wolfe is simply retconning The Tree Is My Hat into\nthe later AEG universe. It's not unsurprising to me that a 1999\nshort story\nwould not have the same fully fleshed out universe" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure. But when he retconned the story he had already established that The \nAgency had a direct presence on the island relating to the aliens there. \nMaybe he had the Storm King in mind, and maybe he didn't. But if he added \nthe Storm King later, then he added Him off an island where he had \nestablished a bizarre *official* relationship between the aliens and \nhumanity. So it's unlikely that The Agency doesn't know about the Storm King \nwhen we are introduced to him in AEG." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "IIRC, doesn't Reis specifically say he hired Chase a few years ago and\never since Chase has been greedy and sought to extort more money out\nof him? I don't see any reason to disbelieve him." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I forgot he said he'd hired him at that dinner with Cassie. There's no more \nreason to believe Reis more than Chase. Cassie doesn't take his words at \nface-value or she would have abandoned Chase. But you're right. It does make \none wonder why he kept those pictures. It's entirely possible that while \nReis ended up paying for Chase's services, the two never met. Which \ndefinitely would suggest that Reis is not above *shading* a story. I do \nagree that Chase is a prostitute who will do anything for money (ala Sherry \nGold and Hyacinth)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "where's the sacrifice of Reis in Peace or\nTBOTNS? [snip]\nA lover killing the sacrificer of the loved\ndoesn't match up" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't expect you to be persuaded but:\nPeace: While digging in a pit for the treasure, Weer's shovel it's a rock \nand gives off a spark. Lois thinks it's the treasure and pulls her little \n(hidden) pistol. The next thing we learn from Weer is that Lois has left \ntown. Do you believe that? I don't. He buried her in that pit.\nTBOTNS: Severian takes Dr. Talos's sword from him (til now concealed in his \ncane) and strides into Baldander's ruined tower to kill him. But the \nantagonist is only over thrown.\nCassie shooting Kanoa matches up perfectly with these and other instances IF \nyou re-assess Kanoa as a more important figure than is immediately apparent. \nOtherwise, the scene has all the elements of the others but is carried out \n\"wrong\".\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-01-07T00:13:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Evil Guest: gold hunting", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 11:27 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nBut we're not given any feeling like 'go there, stay, and shut up'. We\nreally are given the feeling of a not-so-efficient aid agency\npensioning off a worker in a cheap island paradise until he finally\nkicks the bucket:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Neither. Baden is given idea that he is being sent on a particularly\nunpleasant assignment. An assignment he would only take because the other\nchoice is firing. The tone of his boss while giving him the assignment is\npity. And I don't mean pity because he's an alcoholic or had a breakdown,\nwhatever it was. I'm mean pity because he's being given the assignment and\nshe knows he'll take it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's pity because she knows he doesn't deserve the job but he's\ngetting it for old time's sake. Like nepotism. It's not pity like\nsending a man off to die. When one does that, one is more serious &\nsomber - one doesn't solicitously lean forward and make as if to\nsqueeze or hold hands." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Note that Baden's room is essentially free, his board minimal, and he\notherwise isn't a drain on the agency; probably one or two hospital\nstays in the US would exceed the cost of sending and supporting Baden\nthere. Retirees go to tropical 3rd World countries for reasons beyond\nthe weather, y'know." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But he's almost certainly not of retirement age, and even Baden thought the\nmost reasonable course for dealing with him was termination. Assigning him\nto the island means they still have to pay his salary. Even charity aid\nworkers don't live on adjusted per diem. They get full yearly salaries.\nProbably with a bonus for out-of-country service. The idea that an NGO would\nor could maroon an employee to a remote island to avoid medical expenses\nstrikes me itself as a plot for a speculative fiction story. So I would have\nexpected some exposition to justify it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They'd still have to pay him unless they fired him: \"Permanent sick\nleave.\" Sick leaves usually are compensated in some way*, although I\ndon't know how much they'd have to pay him.If you won't countenance\noutright firing, and he's not bedridden enough to justify sick leave,\nthen you need to find a sinecure for him. A remote island with nothing\nfor him to do is perfect.\n\n* one person tells me they understand in the UK it's something like 6\nmonths at full salary, then half-pay afterwards" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He's told that he is to be on the island alone, and within a couple hours of\nhis family arriving on the island, Hanga singles out Baden's wife as a\nfuture meal. It's hard to ignore the coincidence." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hold on. This is the second you've said he is ordered to be alone.\nWhat is this based on?\n\nHis boss says 'you will be on your own', but this is a prediction\nabout other agency people, not white people or people in general -\nobviously Rob and the islanders are already there. Nor does he ever\nthink 'The agency won't like Mary coming here, but I sure hope she\ndoes anyway!'" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And Baden is hardly being lassoed by his wife. ?There really nothing in the\nstory to imply that Baden is a great catch. He doesn't see it that way. The\npicture we get from Baden is that his wife is a forgiving person who is\nstaying with him *in spite* of their history." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "She pressures him with the jeep rental, and then there's the 'Mary\nwanted children, so she stopped the pill and did not tell me. That was\nwhat she told me when I drove Rob's jeep out to North Point.' line;\nisn't this one of the stereotypical gambits attributed to women?\n\nBoth examples point to a woman trying to get him to leave with her; as\na civilized Christian woman, no doubt she doesn't want to raise a\nfamily on the pimply backend of nowhere." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As you pointed out, Baden was told that he was to be stationed at the island\n*totally on his own*. If he's being retired, there's no point in that. It's\npresented to him as a tough, perhaps hazardous assignment. That's hardly a\nway to sell a plan to \"pension him off\". If the island was such a cheap\nalternative to paying medical expenses, why would he be the only one the\nAgency would station there? He can't be the only employee who has ever had\nchronic medical expenses. If The Agency had even pro forma duties there, why\nisn't Baden at least going through the motions of doing them, or mentioning\nthem." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He does complain about their lack: \"All right, I'll keep my eyes open,\nand maybe someday the Agency will send me someplace where I'm needed.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And why would his family want to take him back to civilization when that\nwould mean he would have to quit his job? That is, if the job benefits with\nthe Agency were so ideal." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Because the benefits may be fine for Baden alone, but to raise a\nfamily with? I recently read a history of the British Raj, and the\nCivilians, even though paid very well, with money that went *very* far\nin India, still had financial hardships putting their kids through\nschool and supporting them and often their entirely family way off in\nEngland. The USG doesn't pay as well as John Company did. And then\nthere's the location and populace." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And if hostage, hostage against what?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's the million dollar question. What exactly is the Agency getting out\nof Baden being there? What are the rules that require he be there alone on\nthe island? The Tree Is My Hat and An Evil Guest are both interesting\nintroductions to this world. I wish Wolfe had deigned to actually explain\nit." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They seem to get nothing out of it beyond shuffling off a burden. What\nis he hostage against? If Hanga saw Baden as a hostage against the USG\nattacking Hanga, or something, then *why on earth* would he make a\nblood oath with Baden? That defeats the entire point! What is a\nhostage you have sworn to never hurt or kill? Not a very useful one.\nSimilar for a sacrifice.\n\nOn the other hand, Baden going there for non-Hanga reasons and Hanga\ntaking a shine to this naive foreigner who is pasty-shark-white makes\nperfect sense with the blood oath." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "IIRC, doesn't Reis specifically say he hired Chase a few years ago and\never since Chase has been greedy and sought to extort more money out\nof him? I don't see any reason to disbelieve him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I forgot he said he'd hired him at that dinner with Cassie. There's no more\nreason to believe Reis more than Chase. Cassie doesn't take his words at\nface-value or she would have abandoned Chase. But you're right. It does make\none wonder why he kept those pictures. It's entirely possible that while\nReis ended up paying for Chase's services, the two never met. Which\ndefinitely would suggest that Reis is not above *shading* a story. ?I do\nagree that Chase is a prostitute who will do anything for money (ala Sherry\nGold and Hyacinth)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Reis is probably lying about the extortion part, I agree. That's\ncalculated for sympathy, and we have no evidence that Chase actually\ntried to extort Reis, do we? But Wolfe's lies usually contain truth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "where's the sacrifice of Reis in Peace or\nTBOTNS? [snip]\nA lover killing the sacrificer of the loved\ndoesn't match up" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't expect you to be persuaded but:\nPeace: While digging in a pit for the treasure, Weer's shovel it's a rock\nand gives off a spark. Lois thinks it's the treasure and pulls her little\n(hidden) pistol. The next thing we learn from Weer is that Lois has left\ntown. Do you believe that? I don't. He buried her in that pit.\nTBOTNS: Severian takes Dr. Talos's sword from him (til now concealed in his\ncane) and strides into Baldander's ruined tower to kill him. But the\nantagonist is only over thrown.\nCassie shooting Kanoa matches up perfectly with these and other instances IF\nyou re-assess Kanoa as a more important figure than is immediately apparent.\nOtherwise, the scene has all the elements of the others but is carried out\n\"wrong\".\n\nJ." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But again, in Peace and TBOTNS it's a duel. Severian against\nBaldanders, Weer against Lois. There is no third sacrificed party. If\na major piece of the analogy is missing, you can't make any\ninferences." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2A4B0467154E4E46BA8CA08C71A0902B@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-01-08T01:25:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Evil Guest: gold hunting", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "He's told that he is to be on the island alone, and within a couple hours \nof\nhis family arriving on the island, Hanga singles out Baden's wife as a\nfuture meal. It's hard to ignore the coincidence." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hold on. This is the second you've said he is ordered to be alone.\nWhat is this based on?\nHis boss says 'you will be on your own', but this is a prediction\nabout other agency people, not white people or people in general\nobviously Rob and the islanders are already there." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It did *look* like merely a prediction, until his family arrived and they \nwere immediately treated as an offering.\nI didn't say there would be no other white people, but there seems to be \nsome limitations on who can safely come and go there. And family members \nseems to be part of the limitation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nor does he ever\nthink 'The agency won't like Mary coming here, but I sure hope she\ndoes anyway!'" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, he doesn't say that. Obviously Baden doesn't know the rules about being \nthere anymore than we do. When he shouted at Hanga to stop killing his \nfamily, the Shark alien just looked at him without comprehension. Clearly \nHanga has an understanding of the rules than Baden doesn't." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That's the million dollar question." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "They seem to get nothing out of it beyond shuffling off a burden." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Once again, I don’t see that they have escaped a burden. They still have to \npay him. If they had fired him...okay, lets pretend he has some kind of \nunion rule that says they have to pay him 6 months or even a year after they \nfire him. Big deal. He's clearly just as useless to them on the island as he \nwould be in a Chicago living room. Except that they have extended the time \nthey have to pay a totally unproductive employee. I just don't see it. If \nthere is a job like this for anyone except the children of royalty, I'd \nreally like to apply for it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What is he hostage against? If Hanga saw Baden as a hostage against the USG\nattacking Hanga, or something, then *why on earth* would he make a\nblood oath with Baden? That defeats the entire point! What is a\nhostage you have sworn to never hurt or kill? Not a very useful one.\nSimilar for a sacrifice." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He wasn’t sacrificed, so that's not it. I don't *know* what he's doing \nthere. Neither does he. That's the point, right? That's what's so \nfrustrating about this story. But I assume the Agency sent him there for \n*some* reason. Contacting Hanga is the only thing he does there. When he \ncomes, Hanga approaches him. He doesn't approach everyone. Why him? When \nBaden's wife comes, he approaches her -- immediately. Then he attacks her. \nThat's the story. It's clear the plot is developing according to some logic. \nBut it is a logic that is as invisible to me as Hanga is invisible to \neveryone but Baden and his wife." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On the other hand, Baden going there for non-Hanga reasons and Hanga\ntaking a shine to this naive foreigner who is pasty-shark-white makes\nperfect sense with the blood oath." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm sorry, but I just don't see it. Way too random." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Reis is probably lying about the extortion part, I agree. That's\ncalculated for sympathy, and we have no evidence that Chase actually\ntried to extort Reis, do we? But Wolfe's lies usually contain truth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree. Reis is shading the truth. Chase is not telling the whole story, \nand the whole story about Chase never made it into this novel. That's \nfrustrating." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But again, in Peace and TBOTNS it's a duel. Severian against\nBaldanders, Weer against Lois. There is no third sacrificed party. If\na major piece of the analogy is missing, you can't make any\ninferences." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, there actually *is* a sacrifice occurring in The Knight, when Able \ndraws the sword (hidden under the water in the cave) and slays Grengarm. In \nThere Are Doors, Green kills North (in the boxing ring with North's hidden \nhandgun) to protect Lora. In The Book of the Long Sun, Silk kills Blood (in \nthe sitting room with the hidden cane sword) to protect Marble/Rose. Cassie \nkills Kanoa because he is trying to kill Reis (we suppose). And we can't \nreally know if the sacrifice went off as planned, can we? It doesn't have to \nbe a duel every time. There doesn't have to be a sacrifice every time. Wolfe \nis not writing the same novel over and over again. I didn't mean to imply \nthat he was. But, based on every previous time this little play has been \ncarried out, the antagonist killed is more than a bit player.\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-01-08T19:22:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Evil Guest: gold hunting", "in_reply_to": "<2A4B0467154E4E46BA8CA08C71A0902B@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 8:25 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nHe's told that he is to be on the island alone, and within a couple hours\nof\nhis family arriving on the island, Hanga singles out Baden's wife as a\nfuture meal. It's hard to ignore the coincidence." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Hold on. This is the second you've said he is ordered to be alone.\nWhat is this based on?\nHis boss says 'you will be on your own', but this is a prediction\nabout other agency people, not white people or people in general\nobviously Rob and the islanders are already there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It did *look* like merely a prediction, until his family arrived and they\nwere immediately treated as an offering.\nI didn't say there would be no other white people, but there seems to be\nsome limitations on who can safely come and go there. And family members\nseems to be part of the limitation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Nor does he ever\nthink 'The agency won't like Mary coming here, but I sure hope she\ndoes anyway!'" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No, he doesn't say that. Obviously Baden doesn't know the rules about being\nthere anymore than we do. When he shouted at Hanga to stop killing his\nfamily, the Shark alien just looked at him without comprehension. Clearly\nHanga has an understanding of the rules than Baden doesn't." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "That's the million dollar question." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "They seem to get nothing out of it beyond shuffling off a burden." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Once again, I don’t see that they have escaped a burden. They still have to\npay him. If they had fired him...okay, lets pretend he has some kind of\nunion rule that says they have to pay him 6 months or even a year after they\nfire him. Big deal. He's clearly just as useless to them on the island as he\nwould be in a Chicago living room. “Except that they have extended the time\nthey have to pay a totally unproductive employee. I just don't see it. If\nthere is a job like this for anyone except the children of royalty, I'd\nreally like to apply for it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What is he hostage against” If Hanga saw Baden as a hostage against the\nUSG\nattacking Hanga, or something, then *why on earth* would he make a\nblood oath with Baden? That defeats the entire point! What is a\nhostage you have sworn to never hurt or kill? Not a very useful one.\nSimilar for a sacrifice." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He wasn’t sacrificed, so that's not it. I don't *know* what he's doing\nthere. Neither does he. That's the point, right? That's what's so\nfrustrating about this story. But I assume the Agency sent him there for\n*some* reason. Contacting Hanga is the only thing he does there. When he\ncomes, Hanga approaches him. He doesn't approach everyone. Why him? When\nBaden's wife comes, he approaches her -- immediately. Then he attacks her.\nThat's the story. It's clear the plot is developing according to some logic.\nBut it is a logic that is as invisible to me as Hanga is invisible to\neveryone but Baden and his wife." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On the other hand, Baden going there for non-Hanga reasons and Hanga\ntaking a shine to this naive foreigner who is pasty-shark-white makes\nperfect sense with the blood oath." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm sorry, but I just don't see it. Way too random." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is my interpretation.\n\n1. Baden gets sick in Uganda, and becomes an impediment and danger to\nall the other Agency workers doing good useful work there.\n2. The agency doesn't want to fire him because as a government\nbureaucrat/union/whatever, he's protected by all sorts of rules*, and\nbeing fired for being sick plays poorly in Peoria, but indefinite sick\nleave also plays badly because he could be made to look like a welfare\nqueen.\n3. The only solution is dispatching him to a distant sinecure where\nnone of its other workers want to go (because of the lack of glory or\npromotion to be had), where there's no real work his incompetence\nmight endanger, where there are no other Agency workers to infect or\nobstruct, and where any reporters or outsiders would have to work\n*really* hard to get to him or otherwise notice that it's a sinecure.\n4. Baden is pasty white, shark-white, because he's new. And he spends\na lot of time on beaches and in the water. Hanga is being opposed by\nthe village chief, and is interested in humans in general, and Baden\nis the one that looks most like him and spends the most time near\nhim** and has lots of free time to randomly encounter him. Hanga\nbefriends him and being a primitive god, this friendship takes the\nform of the blood oath to not be in a predator-prey relationship.\n5. Baden's wife comes looking for him. He's no prize, but\nnevertheless, he is the father of her children. Love can be quite\nblind. She makes it very clear she wants to bring him back - that's\npractically all we see of her character, trying to manipulate Baden.\n6. AEG mentions the analogue case of the gaffer who makes such an oath\nbut his family is eaten. Nothing about any Agency sending the gaffer's\nfamily as a sacrifice - they were just in the wrong place at the wrong\ntime. Hanga gets hungry.\n7. Either because Hanga is hungry, or because he is aware Baden might\nleave and wants him to stay, Hanga attacks and attempts to eat Baden's\nfamily.\n\nNote how this explains things beautifully.\n- We don't need to warp the boss's statement into something it is not.\n- We don't need to say 'but it's kindersortalittlelikeifyousquint some\nscenes in some other works'.\n- We don't need to explain how Baden or the Agency hide all their\nequipment and plans and knowledge or 'real' work.\n- We don't need to insist 'but Baden *must* be a sacrifice or\nsomething because though I can't tell you what on earth he's doing\nthere, I'm sure it's not what it seems!'\n- We don't need to say, 'Well, in TTIMH, Hanga understands human\nfamilies and relationships and his incomprehension is actually\nincomprehension about why Baden is not playing by the rules, but\ndecades/centuries later in AEG, Hanga has simply forgotten and doesn't\nunderstand why the gaffer is upset about his family.'\n- we don't need to make extra-textual assumptions like 'TTIMH is not,\nas one would naturally assume from the 8 or 9 years between TTIMH &\nAEG, merely an early version of the AEG universe, but rather it is the\nfull and complete setting and must be interpreted as such, though it\nappears to omit things and be said early version.'\n\nAnd we leave room open for the buried-corpse theories, the theological\naccounts (that the story is about a fall into damnation and\ndemon-worshiping), and even to an extent the \"it's all a mental\nillness\" theories.\n\n* You may not think this rules are excessive. But Wolfe is\nconservative, and thus likely believes that government jobs are\nuncompetitive, very highly compensated relative to duties, and in\ngeneral nepotistic & corrupt.\n** Either because Baden lives near his buried corpse, if you like that\ninterpretation of the 'tree is my hat' comment, or because Baden\nspends a lot of time near the water" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern" } ] } ] }